A question

I'm curious to know how everyone feels about the MSI/EN pastoral process. How do the leaders actually become pastors? As far as I know, they can't go to just any seminary. What are your thoughts...

"any seminary"
84: A solid grounding in hermeunitics is NOT a requirement that is for sure, of course neither is seminary

for christ, it seems there are two avenues. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Those who are already pastors of churches absorbed into Every Nation remain so. However, due to the process of absorption, in which the local church comes under the direct general oversight of EN, EN's "spiritual DNA" begins to be inserted into the church... through local elders who are accountable to EN leaders, through direct accountability/oversight of the senior pastor, ENLI, visiting teachers/speakers, etc. Also, up and coming pastors may be sent to one of the advanced schools, thus bringing back more spiritual DNA. Infiltration. Rice Broocks defines the process fairly well in his book.

Then there is the EN training route - go through ENLI and the advanced schools and get "ordained" that way.

Either way, it ensures that the spiritual DNA of the movement is imparted and then inserted back into the local church and into the local culture.

After advanced EN training some do continue on at Fuller Theological Seminary to get more advanced theological degrees, but now that there doesn't seem to be an active agreement between Fuller and EN I don't know if that will continue to be the case or not.

Can you say more about Fuller and EN? What the active agreement was and whats happened. I've heard good about Fuller or rather let me say I haven't heard anything bad.

The are several tenured theological professors at Fuller who promote the very heresies that permeate Maranatha/Morning Star/Every Nation. Chief among these doomed professors is "Super Apostle" Clarence Peter Wagner who re-cast the 1948 occult movement (Christian Kabbalah) calling itself the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) into its current names, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and the International Coalition of [false] Apostles (ICA). The NAR/ICA can be seen as an entity whose express purpose and vision is to take over entire Christian denominations through such techniques as:

1) Forcing the signing of Unilateral Covenantal Agreements

2) Sending out "plants" i.e. false leaders into Christian churches to become positioned within these churches as elders, deacons, and pastors and eventually lead the church into apostasy through doctrines based upon a little understood philosophical belief system known as Christian Kabbalah.

3) Threats and coercion toward those who won't comply with "coming under submission and apostolic authority" through false prophesies, false declarations, shunning, takeovers of business entities, music mysticism, etc. to name a few.

4) Illegal structuring of the finances of secular businesses toward financing the destruction of local and national Church organizations using the above techniques. This is done using the metaphors of "Marketplace Apostles" as titles given to Christian Businessmen to make them believe they are building a theosophical "New Kingdom Age" that is supposed to universally transform the world so that Jesus Christ can return. In other words, No transformation by man -- no return of Jesus Christ! Man dictates to God when and if His Son returns and God has somehow limited Himself to the confines and dictates of man. This theosophy is what formed the Masonic Lodges in Europe in the 17th century. Other names this goes by are Moral Government Theology (MGT), Pelegianism, Hegelian Dialectic, Federalism (the Maranatha Federation), etc.

Can anything good come out of Fuller Theological?

jayhernandez, I've tried contacting Fuller directly to find out what happened and they have not responded. I've heard two stories... that it was Fuller's decision to drop EN, and that it was EN's decision to drop Fuller. Needless to say, I don't know which is true.

84 wrties in response to Bill MAcks posts

Now to be fair Bill it would be hard to call someone who is a post Mill'nst believer a cult. THE PCA (Preby Church of America, including Sproul (their lead theologian) believe in theosophy and the gradual "conversion" of the earth prior to Christ's return. As a matter of Fact the Tribulation and pre Mill.. return of Christ was believed by a very very small minority of US Christians prior to the American Cival War.

The American Cival war and the "Apocalypse" that the South went through started driving the interpretation of Revelation (pre trib- post trib) rapture that has been prevalent in American Evangelical circles for the last 150 years. It turned the Southern Baptists from DEVOUT CALVINIST to Armenians. The classic Prebyterian and Congregational and Southern Baptist interpretaion would be pre-mille.

With regards to Pelegianism as I just indicated Sproul a beleiver in pre mill is about as opposed to Pelegianism as can be.

The reason I mention all of this is taht I believe that by focusing on the "theological" differences that sincere and devout Christians can and do have we can palce a smoke screen around and over the real problem with EN:

The fact that the movement is based on "control of power and money by those at the top" and not the thirst and hunger for Christ.

Now I grant you the "manifest destiny" and ruling and reiging junk I don't like theologically- but the real issue is the way that EN/MCM used and perverted these doctrines for their own devious ends...

84 wrties in response to Bill MAcks posts

Now to be fair Bill it would be hard to call someone who is a post Mill'nst believer a cult. THE PCA (Preby Church of America, including Sproul (their lead theologian) believe in theosophy and the gradual "conversion" of the earth prior to Christ's return. As a matter of Fact the Tribulation and pre Mill.. return of Christ was believed by a very very small minority of US Christians prior to the American Cival War.

The American Cival war and the "Apocalypse" that the South went through started driving the interpretation of Revelation (pre trib- post trib) rapture that has been prevalent in American Evangelical circles for the last 150 years. It turned the Southern Baptists from DEVOUT CALVINIST to Armenians. The classic Prebyterian and Congregational and Southern Baptist interpretaion would be pre-mille.

With regards to Pelegianism as I just indicated Sproul a beleiver in pre mill is about as opposed to Pelegianism as can be.

The reason I mention all of this is taht I believe that by focusing on the "theological" differences that sincere and devout Christians can and do have we can palce a smoke screen around and over the real problem with EN:

The fact that the movement is based on "control of power and money by those at the top" and not the thirst and hunger for Christ.

Now I grant you the "manifest destiny" and ruling and reiging junk I don't like theologically- but the real issue is the way that EN/MCM used and perverted these doctrines for their own devious ends...

maranatha1984, you said, The reason I mention all of this is that I believe that by focusing on the "theological" differences that sincere and devout Christians can and do have we can palce a smoke screen around and over the real problem with EN:

This is a smoke screen EN itself uses. One doesn't really learn what the movement really stands for and promotes until after one is joined with "spiritual family." Sometimes years after, if ever. But when one asks about it, they are told that these issues deal with non-essentials, which are no reason to leave "spiritual family."

It goes a lot deeper than whether EN is postmil or not. EN is postmil, and eschatology is not a Christian essential (something that people are reminded of when asked, in order to defuse the issue), but it is possible for extreme eschatological positions to expose more serious underlying problems in one's more essential beliefs.

As in Jim Laffoon's talk. He is essentially saying that "we" are the diadem, crown, rod of iron prophesied in Isaiah. Leaders, particularly those on or near the top of the pyramid, assume attributes and "prerogatives of deity." I discussed this in one of my recent blog entries. Leo Lawson promoted postmil eschatology when he was dean of the School for Campus Ministry... he also taught that we could be "men of God" just like Jesus was a "man of God"--Jesus in his view was not fully, eternally God but became perfectly filled with and empowered by the Holy Spirit at His baptism, just like we can aspire to be. That's an old heresy btw going back to at least the second century.

There's a fine line there between ruling and reigning WITH Christ and ruling and reigning AS Christ. Orthodox postmillennialists don't believe they ARE Christ.

Men are NOT Jesus Christ. Jesus resisted the temptation of Satan, when he offered Him all the kingdoms of the world if He would just worship him. Jesus, fully man, was tempted; Jesus, fully God, of course responded, "Away from me, Satan!" But what about mere men? Did Broocks and Bonasso, when offered the same temptation, say, "Yeah, sure, why not?"

A body that has forgotten Christ is the Head...

ULL writes "There's a fine line there between ruling and reigning WITH Christ and ruling and reigning AS Christ. Orthodox postmillennialists don't believe they ARE Christ.

"Men are NOT Jesus Christ. Jesus resisted the temptation of Satan, ....Did Broocks and Bonasso, when offered the same "

84: you get to the heart of the matter ULY. It is not the Theology per se- you and I can have a reasoned debate on post or pre mil return of Christ etc etc ..

What is different about ICC/MCM/EN is that if you read their sermons they don't appear that whacky...or venture very often into the Theological Cult area (although they get mighty close). When "caught" they explain the TC stuff away or change the wording ala Bob Weiner "you must never give allegiance to one person"

The problem, as you so eloquently pointed out, is that these Theological Points are in place- - to defend a lifestyle or a power grab.

I was in MCM when the "ruling and reigning" manifest SOGs took root in very very fertile soil.

Why?

Because it was theologically sound?

Well you can forget the "logic" part of theological when it comes to MCM and EN.

There is rarely any cognitive Aristolean Logic in MCM and EN.

No it was adapted because it fit Bob and Joe's self definition of the Green Berets- and the sacrifices HAD to be for something- OH BOY we can tell people that they will rule and reign! Now we HAVE them!!!!!

Hogwash of course- I mean one simply has to look into the Gospels to see that Jesus EXPLICITLY rejected this kind of nonsensical thinking!

Just see the argument among John, James and Andrew over who would sit at the left and right hand. Just think of what our Lord must think as he sees these numbskulls preaching what He Himself WARNED against.

Okay- the Leo Lawson -Rice Broocks -Phil- Laffon heresey (lets don't kid ourselves this had to be approved by the others) of being perfected ?

Was it taught because the interpretation of these scripture demonstrated that we could be like Jesus- literally?

No- only a numbskull could look at ALL of the scriptures and come to that conclusion. Even the Catholics (hyper Amern to the core) would say although perfection is a worthy mark that is unobtainable.

Lets give these guys a break though.

Leo Lawson understanding "hemunetics" and the Principal of the "Weight and Proponderance of Scripture" [taught in any Bible School in the US] would be like my poodle suddenly understanding derivative calculus equation.

No offense - but when God was handing out brains Leo was last in line.

The reason that the "perfection of Man" was taught was that it fit the structure and power that they had built. If you "can be perfect" and you are "not being perfect" then there is a PROBLEM in your life that must be associated with sin, or something else which gives me (the pastor, elder, prophet) power over you.

So we see the princible (which I will explore in my next chapter) that structure and practice are fitted to "Theology and interpretations" not the other way around.

Thus MCM/EN and the ICC can take a perfectly sound theolgocial principle and "twist it" and use it to promulgate their power. Conversely they can use a whacky and heretetical position to do the same.

Focusing on the theology only will lead one astray with regards to EN/MCM- and I think it is a mistake to do so...without exposing WHY the theology (whether conventional or heretical) is used.

Having said that these cats will use heresey, good theology, bad theology any theology that promotes their power.

'84,

"The reason that the "perfection of Man" was taught was that it fit the structure and power that they had built."

That's my whole point historically. They DID NOT build this structure. It had already been build theosophically by the Rosicrucians 300 years ago with detailed plans written that include the very years we are now living in!!!! We now have complete access to these plans, the theosophical structure that BW and the rest of the NOLR leaders are using. These heretics can run, but they simple cannot hide.

They have built their whole Adam Kadmon structure with the untempered morter of the Kabbalah. Yes, there are those leaders in the mix who never knew what they were doing because of the carefully hidden identity of the 17th century sources, but they are still guilty as God has been faithful to repeatedly send warnings over the years.

We are at the point in time where God is saying, "The Day of the Lord is at hand. Judgment is now" and this very evil structure will reel and rock caused by oscillations of Truth that have met the target full force. Their iron and clay feet will never hold together no matter how many written covenants they coerced other leaders to sign. "ADAM KADMON CHRIST" IS DOOMED!

Is there money and power as a motivation? Of course there is. They thought they were digging up a great treasure when the earlier pioneer leaders of the NOLR hoisted Jacob Boehme's strongbox of alchemystical teaching to the surface in 1948. The truth now shows (again) that they unearthed Pandora's Box -- and the Gifts of the Spirit they thought they acquired really were the same ones that Sorcerer Harry Potter acquired at the Hogwart School of Sorcery. Bill Hamon's "School for the Prophets" is really another Christianized version of Harry Potter. I am an eyewitness to what they do there over the course of 4-days in January 2000 while visiting Minneapolis Maranathan Nick Skrivanek. During this visit, I also went to Brownsville A/G in Pensacola to see how Hamon's NOLR Christian Intl' was interfacing with Browsville A/G. Of course, I know now in retrospect that the Assemblies of God has had many cozy trists with the Latter Rain since 1948!!!

The KABBALAH DRACULA or FRANKENCHRIST that come out of the unearthed coffin that the NOLR brought out needs to be cornered and have the SOLID-SILVER SPIKE OF TRUTH driven into its heart while video camcorders document everything. That is what is happening right now. The magical LOST WORD that brought animation to this *GOLEM* needs to be written on a piece of paper with an *X* drawn over it and forced into it's mouth so it will again return to dust.

God will get the Glory in the Nashville case and the Freemasons who are watching this will be put to shame.

--Bill

Hi Bill

I understand your view and I think we have a very insignificant disagreement that in the scheme of things- from my perspective really does not matter.

When I speak of structure I mean "how" EN is structured sociolgically and financially (just to clarify- you may have already understood this)

For example: I disagree with Speak and Phil about whether EN can be reformed- they are convinced that it can be- and if they are successful I will wait in line to shake their hands. The WW Church of God was both a theological and sociological cult that seems now to be reformed and a "real" church, whatever my theological disagreements with them might be. So maybe the same can happen for EN.

For we [you and I] do agree on one thing- that these guys are a Sociological Cult and we must each work with our own method of helping people and warning them about EN.

That regardless of the "how" they are interested in power and control

Those opposed or trying to assisted with the reform of EN owe you a gratitude of debt for you work in this area and your understanding of theology.

We must each work toward the same end in the manner that we believe is correct.

I wish you success of course

Blessing

Tik (tok) 84

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Hi all- Catching up. I have something to share here. I have the back story, on this so to speak. Leo is now appearing to be the scapegoat, but that is not accurarate. He spoke what he heard from the leaders from one one with his invlovement in this group. They made him , repent and get re-baptized in Maranatha. He was a tireless worker , helped form many churches and dispciles in this group. Because of his work later in due time, they asked him to start his theology work as he was educated as a teacher at Uk. He was given books and began his homework as well as pastoring a large campus fellowship at the same time. This came about in response to 1982 investigation on the group. His every step was watched and confirmed by Gainesville and others. He was never alone in this but said and wrote what others told to do. Everything was reviewed.
When Ann Arbor went out their rallying cry as "NO MORE ROME ".
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Maranatha84

I don't remember ever writing you here or elsewhere that I was convinced that EN could be reformed.

Hey, your message board is called every nation reform station or something like that. Maybe I am being picky but come on ;).

Yes, you are being picky.

This is just like being in Maranatha LOL.

Who said that?

If Philip were here he would say, see how horrible it is that you can't delete your message after 30 minutes? This would not happen at http://www.everynation.proboards102.com you should go there now and continue the discussion in more depth over there.

Everything is cool, talk to ya later.

(Message edited by 40days40years on May 02, 2006)

The Reformation Station promotes reform as well as honest and open dialogue. In no ways does it claim that human agency without the support of the Holy Spirit to be a possible means to reform. In fact, we believe that both the conviction of error and sin as well as the open repentance by the leadership and membership of the church would be required for any authentic transformation to begin to take place. As a result, we would be naive to believe that Reformation is the only means by which the will of God will be accomplished in all of this.

The administrators of The Reformation Station agree that there is “cult-like” behaviour in the movement’s leadership that requires urgent attention. This has historical and spiritual roots. As to the dysfunctions, abuses, cultishness, errors in doctrine etc. of the movement there needs to be further debate and discussion with a view to assisting people and setting them free and not just condemning them. The Reformation Station takes a redemptive viewpoint of individuals and the church.

The Reformation Station accepts that there are different viewpoints about the future of the organisation and does not seek to exclude any of these. Reformation may seem idealistic to those of us who have studied the movement in depth and are familiar with its complexities, but we need to remember that with God all things are possible.

Historical attempts at reform within EN's predecessor Maranatha, failed as a result of mixed motivations and poor judgement of the reality of the situation. Our "reformation" goal is not based on these previous attempts that may have sought compromise and political control rather than Godly reform.

The Reformation Station was started at the request of an EN pastor who indicated that he would more open to a place less threatening and more open to dialogue. Others within the movement have also indicated their openness to understand the criticisms and complaints against the movement now that they have found a place that seems less threatening and more open.

Many sincere current EN members have avoided dialogue with us as a result of the Every Nation/Morningstar Factnet section being on a Cult Discussion Board. The majority of EN members do not view EN as a cult and as a result have avoided or ignored the conversation on Factnet even when they may have had valuable contributions to add. Others have not posted or dialogued out of fear and we would like to afford those people an alternative place as well. We would also like to adress those fears without diluting the truth.

Our goal is to disseminate the truth. We do not seek to compromise the Gospel or the advancement of truth. The Reformation Station will continue sharing, discussing and debating without personalised or demeaning attacks on any individuals. We do not represent any internal faction of EN leadership. We have no personal ambitions as to leadership within EN.