Home School cont.

[julieanne]

I do not need to justify myself to you or anyone else Pilgrum because I'm not claiming the way I raise my children is the perfect way. It is however the way that is right for me and my family.

Yes I smack my son, but very rarely. Most of the time all he needs is a word of correction to put things right.

I condemn the way the entire body of the twelve tribes community uses the rod as child abuse, not for the sake of a few cases of people who misuse it but because every member of the twelve tribes practices and believes that children must obey without question and if they don't they must be hit with a rod. You believe that when a child disobeys, they sin and you believe that the only way to cleanse them from that sin is to hit them with a rod.

This is what I heard every Monday morning at the child training teachings and also what I read in the teachings I was given to study.

This is what you tell your children and they are so afraid they will go to the lake of fire that they come to you and confess their 'sin' so they can be cleansed of it.

I do not have a problem with loving parents who use corporal punishment to discipline their children. I do have a problem with a body of people teaching little children that if they make a noise, laugh, pretend something is a doll, suck their thumb or move when they have been told not to that they are disobeidient and disobedience is sin and if they sin they have a bad conscience and if they have a bad conscience they will go to the lake of fire for eternity and the only way they can be cleansed of that sin and have their conscience cleaned is to submit to being repeatedly hit with a rod.

Pilgrum,

You ask us if your being in the community for twelve years means nothing in this dialogue. Well it doesn't mean nothing, it means a lot. It means that you have believed these things wholeheartedly, you've found your home, your family, the answers to all those questions, a purpose to your life. Sometimes you might feel totally alone, frustrated at not being able to say what you really think, knowing that if you confide in any of your friends they will go straight to your shepherds and report every word of the conversation but you push those things aside because you have seen the bible come to life for the first time ever, for the first time ever you know without a doubt that God is real. All these niggly little things don't matter because you are in the body of Messiah and the sacrifice is worth it.

That's exactly how I felt until the day before I left. I had little issues but knew that I could never leave. I got depressed and was summoned to see the shepherds. They gave me a good talking to and told me to think about what they had said. They told me to go for a walk and cry out to God and when I was ready I should come and speak to them. Something about the things they said didn't feel right so I went for a walk and I cried out to God, I told Him how I was feeling and asked Him what I should do. I told Him that I really felt like I should leave and asked that if that was the wrong decision that He should let me know. I then had an overwhelming feeling that I should go so I phoned someone to come and pick me up.

When I say I condemn the whole community, I don't so much mean the individual people, I mean the system of the community. I can't condemn the individuals because they've been sucked into this as much as I was. The shepherds in my community weren't power hungry tyrants ruling over everyone else, they genuinely believed just as we did. I've never met Yoneq but would love to know if he genuinely believes this stuff too.

I don't ask for a response to this, I just want to encourage you to be true to yourself. Ask yourself if you're really happy. After 12 years it would take real courage to leave but there are people all over the world willing to help.

Vicki

[nabashalam]

Pilgrum-"there have been things that haven't been done right over the years. We are all learning, hopefully growing. Sure, there has been wrong doing. "

Sure! But you lay the blame on those trying to follow the instructions to the best of their ability and not where the blame should be! You say its these poor souls who are groping for God fault because they dont apply what is taught them with love! IT'S THEIR LOVE FOR GOD THAT HAS THEM DOING THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! IT'S THAT LOVE THAT HAS THEM GO AGAINST THEIR BETTER THINKING, THEIR CONSCIENCE!!! And you say they dont have the "spirit" and do it wrong! What? Is it that they dont hold the headless chicken at the proper angle when they switch their children into submission! "Eenie weany chili beany! The spirits are about to SPEAK!" are they friendly spirits? "Gee Rocky! I not sure!"

GET REAL!!!!


Pilgrum-"Many people have received help for trying to apply spiritual principles without love BECAUSE OF THE FEAR OF DOING WRONG and unfortunately they end up doing wrong anyway."

Why in the world is there FEAR there? If YOU! the LEADERS! Had that love that casts out all fears you wouldnt have this problem! That FEAR does not emenate from these parents! It comes from you!!! The leaders! The Authority! And dont feed me that "fear of God" crap! It is REVERE not FEAR!!!

YOU!!! YONEQ!!! AND ALL OF THE TT LEADERS ARE ULTIMATELY RESPOSIBLE, JUST AS A CAPTAIN OF A SHIP, AND ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS IN YOUR KINGDOM, SO QUIT TRYING TO PASS THE RESPONSIBILTY AND BLAME ON THE POOR PEOPLE WHO ARE SUBMITTED TO YOU!

YOU MAKE ME SICK YOU SPINELESS WOUSE!!!!

SO THE NEXT TIME YOU SAY "WE" HAVED ERRORED, WE HAVE MADE MISTAKES, YOU BETTER BE TALKING ABOUT THE ONES RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE ERRORS.

YOU, YONEQ OR NO OTHER LEADERS OR SO-CALLED SHEPHERDS HAVE EVER ADMITTED PERSONAL OR COLLECTIVE WRONG DOING, MISTAKES, FAILURES OR SHORT COMINGS.

YONEQ HAS TAUGHT YOU WELL. NEVER ADMIT TO DOING OR BEING WRONG OR TAKING ON ANY PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY. BLAME IT ON THE SHEEP! THEY'LL BUY THAT! THEY HAVE TO! WE SPEAK FOR GOD AND GOD CANT BE AT FAULT!!!! IF YOU FEED IT TO THEM, THEY WILL EAT IT!!! THEY HAVE NO CHOICE! WE ARE THEIR SOLE PROVIDER! THEIR ONLY SOURCE OF LIFE!!!

[here_comes_sunshine]

It's funny, I remember the day and the conversation when I talked my parents out of spanking me anymore. I didn't care much for it much either. It hurt, and it gave me no other option than to comply with their wishes. But, I talked them into other froms of discipline instead, which they tried, and from then on, I think I pretty much had control of the situation. If it would have helped me to avoid all the foolishness in my life afterward, then I wish my parents would had beat me nearly to death, because that's about where I ended up on my own anyway.

I love my children, but it remains to be seen if I am a good parent or not. From what I've seen, the children in the 12 tribes are not abused, they are trained, or taught, not beaten for nothing. Like I said, their children seem well behaved, not a bad thing.

[here_comes_sunshine]

Boy, God must be a hardtaskmaker, I'm scared too!

I always though I was supposed to be...

because I'm not about to argue with his justice or his word.

[nabashalam]

One thing I forgot to address...

Pilgrum-"there are 100's of people that have remained in the community with each other (much longer than you or I- if you ever actually lived here- it is unclear to me) and in spite of it all love each other and their children. Their children are married and having their own children and are doing well. Does this not mean anything?"

Yes! It means that FEAR rules and reigns in the Tribes! It tells me these people are scared to death to leave!!!!

[pilgrum]

you're quite good at twisting just about everything I say to your own end. When I talk about people that have made mistakes over the years I don't distinguish between "shepherds & sheep" as you impose upon me in your response. your responses to all that I have said shows quite well that even if all the "leadership" repented for their errors you would not be satisfied in the least. you are quite impossible to have any sort of dialog with unless I support everything you say. You are wrong that no leader has ever repented for wrong doing. Your allegation is absurd. I've lived with many leaders in the TT that have repented for how they might have mistreated someone. It's not even worth getting into this debate. that's exactly what you turn this entire dialog into. as I said in a prior post anyone that comes on here from the TT with anything good to say about life in the TT gets chewed up and spit out. I have said there really is no room for a TT member to post here because their voice is really not heard.
I was impressed by what "sunshine" had to say... I have said a few times that I am not returning and several of you have said how much you wish I would stay... why? So I can be your scapegoat... so you can spit at me and curse at me because I support the goodness of this life and proclaim that there actually is good fruit here... but you can't stand to hear any of it. You have a hay day with anything good anyone says about the TT and this is what it eventually turns into every time. You yell, you curse, you defame, malign and twist around anything good and turn it into some sick, diabolical manipulative enterprise. We're human just like you, naba. We're all struggling, groping to find peace and to please our Maker in the right way. I suppose as long as anyone expects to find the perfected body of Messiah we will never find Him. Have you found Him yet?

[voocitd]

Pilgrum - you are not hearing anger and hatred from us. You are hearing, hurt and pain. Listen with those ears. Have understanding. Your statement opened deep wounds. You are talking to people who were in the life you speak of and were cast out and blamed for various horrible things. So a very casual statement to you that "some people have misunderstood or mis-applied a teaching" is another arrow shot from the Tribes into deeply wounded people who were trying to live the life of Messiah and were abused and rejected and then lied about.

You say, "Even if, the leadership would repent......" Again and Again and Again, I say, "THAT IS THE POINT" the leadership, Yoneq, has never and will never repent. You have to ask yourself why that is?

But please have a shepherd's heart and see with a shepherd's eye the people you are talking to and the affect of your words. You have a voice, use YOUR voice, not the collective VOICE of the leadership of the Twelve Tribes. Think for yourself, ask yourself if what we are saying has any thread of truth. And if it does, then don't suppress the thought as "having sinful doubts", give it up to God and ask for His guidance not the guidance of another shepherd or Yoneq. It is frustrating when we talk to someone who appears to have a genuine heart and then they start to become a mouth piece for Yoneq's propaganda.

I think we all need to take a few deep breaths and decide how we can reasonably communicate with each other, so we all have a voice.

[nabashalam]

Yes I have! Many of them!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-P...1280594&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Muhammad..._sim_b_title_2

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lao-Tzu-..._sim_b_title_1


I have never dismissed the good that is in the tribes. None of us here has. We just want to bring accountability to it's proper place. If the Yoneq and hierarchy of the Tribes were to humble themselves, rid themselves of the leaven of the Pharisees ( "I thank God Im not like this tax gatherer")make a public repentance (admission and change of their ways) of their mistakes and shortcomings then we could all move on...

I applaud your courage to step up and admit your faults. Yours alone and not the sheep in your care....

I would love to see others follow your lead....

[fatherofaking]

I also saw many well behaved children.
i have spent a fair amount of time with the TT over the years, before and after my son was born.
I think that is something that most all of us notice when we visit.
But not all of the children were visitors.
You cannot forget about the victims of physical and sexual abuse.
The uneducated children working in kitchens as young adults.
Nor can you ignore all of the families that were destroyed along the way.
The TT are an institution built on the vision of one man of one man alone just like many others
Some of them became successful religions.
All of the destroyed lives are just part of the vision.
They are casualties along the stairway to heaven.
Yoneq is just one of many.
Joseph Smith, Jim Jones ( how many people died when things got heated with the law?).
Let us not forget David Koresh.

look at things from a different perspective for a moment.
people will never be able to live peacefully together unless they are already independent themselves.
It must happen independent of leadership, shared responsibility is the way it happened the first time.
The only teachings were the law and the prophets, much of the new testament was just the chronicles in the gospels and acts, the rest are just letters to churches.
The letters may include some instruction but they were never intended to be an authority over the law and the prophets.
It's just not time yet for it to happen.
The TT are people like me and many others, we can feel in our bones that we are one and should be able to live in peace.
We are just not ready to do it yet.
3,000 is a good number but nowhere near world changing status.
I am not sure when it is going to happen, or if any TT members will be involved, but i do know this.
Things are changing at a faster pace than any time in human history.
It is going to come to a point when it will reach what is called a singularity.

Originally Posted by Mike Treder

It is remarkable to find officials at this level of the U.S. government, or any large government, openly discussing dramatic possibilities that most often are dismissed as science fiction. However, the report does caution about making an uncritical assumption that suddenly ”everything will change”:

http://href="http://ieet.org/index.p...he singularity
I will be happy to make the leap that are wonderful government is not.
In the face of this kind of change the only thing that can occur is transformation.
It will not be the first leap in consciousness we have made as a human species, the record seems to indicate there have been a few others.
i would say that they all contained some significant emotional experiences as a catalyst for the kind of change it would take to cause a leap in consciousness to happen.
This will be no different.

[voocitd]

I am sending this message to Pilgrum in response to his postings on this thread. I have included video testimonies which make the response better hosted on my website:

http://yatttdiscuss.blogspot.com/200...1_archive.html

Please read this and reply here or on the Common Ground Internet Cafe if you like.

[fatherofaking]

Thanks for the Painter/Howell interview Voice, i have been wanting to see it, just not enough to hunt for it, thanks.

[fatherofaking]

Originally Posted by pilgrum

I suppose as long as anyone expects to find the perfected body of Messiah we will never find Him. Have you found Him yet?

I think you have hit the core issue pilgrum.
There is no individual body or group of bodies that can claim to be the perfect body of Christ.
The only one who holds that distinction is Yahshua Himself, our brother, the first born of all creation.
It is, or should be the goal of all humanity to be perfected in Christ.
It is clearly God's desire that we all meet that goal and we also know that God gets what he desires.
In giving oneself to that goal not one can separate him/herself from the testing ground of the world.
we can design the world we choose to live in and do what is necessary to live within it, but we are never separated from the rest of the world no matter how much we wish to be.
Are you immune to the works of Satan in your little world of the TT?
Of course not.
If we were to make it into a contest, i would say that you have built yourself a little shelter from the worst of what Satan has to offer and people like myself stand and face His full fury.
Who is it that can escape the temptations of the Evil One?
Not one of us.
All temptations arise from within not from without.
Where and with whom you live is a choice not a command.
It is a foolish man that yokes himself with someone who does not hold the same desire to serve God.
A man does not have to live in a community to escape that foolishness.
While the number is getting smaller it seems, God still has plenty of people that serve Him, inside and outside of the TT.

There is and never will be any command to live in community.
There is perhaps desire by many of us but what exactly does that desire entail?
Each individual will have to answer that for themselves.
Once the answer is known we then can choose as we see fit.
As free men and women (freedom given by our Creator) it is what we have been given to do.
We are to govern our own lives, God is our guide not our task master.

I follow the example of Paul and strive for the resurrection from the dead.
I have not yet striven to the point of shedding my blood as drops of sweat as our brother Yahshua did in the garden, but i hope to one day be found worthy to face the test.

Perfection?
Oneday pilgrum.
Oneday.

[nabashalam]

The word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means "to teach."

You can't teach a child anything when they are under the stress of being beaten.

All you teach them is fear.