Uummm stuff wait somthin like aah nevermind

[iasmann (iasmann)]

Tony did change his name after he was saved but not legally. He changed his name when he was in hiding to Harvey Cochran.

Harvey was a brother who got permanently disabled in a car wreck while out distributing Tony's literature. He had been at the foundation for about 20 years. After he was injured Tony didn't want to pay for his care so he dumped him in a nursing home and abandoned him. He said he was a weasel for having the accident. That's Tony's idea of Christian love.

Then Tony stole his ID when he went into hiding.

Nancy Ross says, "On July 5, 1991, Alamo was "captured" in Tampa, Florida where he and other church members openly operated a hardware store and family-style restaurant."

The coward was openly going under the name of Harvey Cochran and using Harvey's ID. Again this is indisputable fact that is backed by arrest records and court records. He was not going around under his own name like Nancy alleges.

Have you noticed the pattern yet. Everything Tony accuses everyone else off he is actually guilty of himself. The evidence he uses against them is based on hearsay and unprovable allegations. But God has arranged for the evidence against Tony to be 100% verifiable by sworn court testimony or other public records.

Of course Tony will say it's all a Vatican or Can plot blah, blah, blah. But think about this.

What are the chances that all these people from around the country are CAN members or Jesuit priests. You've got Jury members in Memphis, police officers in Tampa, a truck sales company in Arkansas, a bankruptcy court, his own website, a book written long before he got saved, a car dealer in Nashville, his own tax returns etc. The list goes on and on. They can't all be plants working for CAN or the Vatican but that's what Tony keeps saying. It's like a broken record. Just read Nancy Ross's story.

Not to mention dozens of people who have personally known him and have seen real atrocities far worse than anything mentioned here.

He wants to know why I don't talk about the altar calls full of souls with tears streaming down their faces. Because that hasn't happened over there in almost THIRTY years. That's why. All he has now is 15 year old testimonies from Chalais and Demoulin. It's pathetic. The scribes and pharisee's searched land and sea and got a proselyte. Tony's so pathetic he searches land and sea but can't come up with a new proselyte in 15 years.

Tony did destroy the foundation. It says so right in the Nancy Ross story. Tony gave up 52 million dollars worth of the Lord's property to the devil. Property that God had given to the church to use in winning souls that Christ died for. Tony gave it all away in a fit of uncontrollable rage when he had a little boy beaten 140 times with a 2 by 4. And when he lied on his tax return.

The bible says "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper:" that's why the Lord took away everything he had and threw him in jail.

We helped him to cover his sin that's why we ended up on the street as well. But we took heed to the second half of that scripture, "whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy" and Tony hardened his heart to it.

Tony is still covering up these sins decades later. I know many of the people posting for him are doing so because they are coerced. The Lord knows that and will have mercy. But some of you are grown men and women who know better and are in a position to stop what's going on just by going to the police and reporting it. There is no statute of limitations on child molestation. That's why all these catholic priests were busted 20 and 30 years after their crimes. It will never be too late to report this stuff until Tony is in the grave.

His greatest claim to fame is a bunch of letters from foreign countries from people who've never even met him. He writes tracts and preaches messages about stuff he doesn't practice anywhere but in his own mind.

Susie always used to say "if you want to know how to do something ask someone who's never done it." That about fits the bill for Tony's tracts.

[smitty (smitty)]

Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 10:19 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Being somewhat klutzy w/ the computer, I can't seem to contact the Moderators of these threads. Would someone else who can PLEASE get ahold of them and get this crap cleaned up.

[rattlesnake (rattlesnake)]

I am sure that even God is cringing at this so called Christian language and behaviour that you alamo supporters use.
Probably even Tony would be disappointed in you because for an outsider to sit and read all of this, they would definately not believe that a leader who allowed his followers to speak and behave in such an outrageous and rude manner would be a leader led by God.

All the time that you spend trying to convince outsiders how righteous and godly Tony Alamo is, is blown to bits by all your nasty posts.

Seriously think about it from a mature point of view if you will. The Alamo supporters are the ones trying to prove that Tony is led by God and that everyone else is just trying to destroy Tony, for whatever reason.

If you, alamo supporters, had never heard of Tony Alamo, and you were seriously trying to get some sort of answers about whether or not he was truly led by God, would you find what you are saying very convincing?

I know you will come back at me with something rude, at this point I expect nothing less, but I think that if you really search your heart, deep down you know this is true.

If you truly believe that Tony is who you think he is, then do you not think that he is capable of defending himself?

And if you are truly worried about someone getting turned off from following Tony because of what the non-supporters are saying, consider this: If Tony really is chosen by God and God wanted to choose someone to be a follower of Him through Tony, do you not have enough confidence in God to see his will be done regardless of what is said on here?

Why don't you let God and Tony fight this battle instead of coming on here and making Tony and his ministry look like such an unattractive ministry?

Please really give this some consideration. Right now things don't look too attractive and as a "mostly" outsider, I have to tell you ... they ain't getting any better.

[skeptik (skeptik)]

sinners prayer, can you do anything other than repeating TA tracts? I may not agree with your colleagues like jedi, but at least we had some discussion here, rather than what you're doing. Quit hiding behind the works of some nutbucket like TA, and approach these topics like a person.

[false_prophet_detecter (false_prophet_detecter)]

If God looked directly into your eyes and said, "I command that you be happy in the world, as long as you live," What would you do?

[false_prophet_detecter (false_prophet_detecter)]

You are free to create and honor whatever past you choose, to heal and transform your present.

[false_prophet_detecter (false_prophet_detecter)]

Most happy, successful people at one time have considered suicide. They decided against it.

[false_prophet_detecter (false_prophet_detecter)]

laughing all the way

[safenowinspite (safenowinspite)]

The joy of the Lord is your strength.

[ivy (ivy)]

skeptik,
DO NOT ASSOCIATE "SINNERS PRAYER..GUY" WITH IRISH JEDI. IRISH JEDI HAS NOT EVEN POSTED FOR QUITE AWHILE. "SINNER..." IS ACTUALLY HAND IN HAND WITH YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES.

[legion (legion)]

ivy ivy ivy whoe are u

[moonflower (moonflower)]

I have very little time to be on this corrupt message board because I work for the Lord and can’t waste much time on this, so I have to get everything out that I have to say at once so bear with me for just a little longer. Then I’m out of here. (For the record, Tony doesn’t even know I’m writing this. I have access to the internet and post what I want when I want.)

I want to get another thing straight. I am here in this church not because I was born here but because the Lord has shown me personally beyond any doubt that Pastor Alamo is of the Lord, not because I was told he was. I only listen to the Lord, not to human flesh.

Most of the children that were in the church were here because their parents were and because it was all they knew. But some of us had had real experiences with the Lord and had a closeness with the Lord that went beyond just being in the church. After the government had the church property raided the property and kicked us all out onto the streets, we all went to make livings for ourselves. Some families stayed in touch with the church and tithed but some didn’t. I’m ashamed to say ours didn’t. We had the chance to live the way you all are living now. Some people loved it and chose it rather than a life of self denial, which is what we are commanded to live. But I was miserable out there. I always talked to my family about wanting to get back to the church. I hated it out there. My flesh may have liked some of it, but I knew I wasn’t right with God. No matter how much I tried to serve Him out there, I just couldn’t. There were so many things to distract me from serving the Lord. It was impossible to keep the first and most important commandment, which is love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The Lord kept dealing with me to get back to the church. It wasn’t anything Tony told me. As a matter of fact, I never talked to him, and I rarely heard his message tapes. It was just between God and I, the Lord dealing with me like He had so many times before. (I know when God’s dealing with me.) I couldn’t sleep at night because I knew I wasn’t where God wanted me. I lived like that for years. I couldn’t bring myself to just leave my family and go back even though I wanted to so badly. To make a long story short, my family finally came back to the church. This time I was blessed with the opportunity that I never had before while growing up in the church (none of the children did, they only heard from other people, “Tony said this, Tony said that” most of which Tony never said. You all remember the cruelty to the children brought on by the likes of Dale and Cindy Garris and many others. All of which Tony was very angry about when he heard, and these adults were not allowed to be in positions of taking care of children anymore). This time I got to work around Tony because I worked in the church office. This is when I found out for myself (not taught by anyone else) that he truly is a prophet of the Lord. I have witnessed personally him praying over many, many people (I would never be able to give an amount because it’s such a common occurrence) and they were healed instantly. I’ve seen him, many times, be warned from the Lord to leave somewhere and he, of course, obeyed right away, as he always does, and each time it is manifested why the Lord had him leave—once an earthquake, once a flood, etc.—too many times to mention if I want to finish this tonight. (I’ve got other things to do. I do have a life.) Many times someone will be worried because they think something is really wrong with them or they think something bad is going to happen, and the pastor prays and the Lord tells him everything is okay. And sure enough everything was okay. In fact, that just happened today. Then other times something would happen and it seemed in normal circumstances that it would be no big deal and the pastor says the Lord is warning me about this. This person needs to go to the hospital or do this or do that, and it turns out if they wouldn’t have followed the Lord’s instructions through Tony there would have been a death or something really bad would have happened. I can give two examples. 1) A boy fell out of a tree. Everyone one was just treating it like a minor accident because no one actually saw him fall out of the tree and he had no sign of something seriously being wrong with him. He said he was fine and was already feeling better. When the pastor found out it the Lord instructed him to get him to the hospital right away. They drove him there, and when they got him to the hospital they gave him an MRI and he was bleeding behind the skull, causing his brain to be pushed to the left. They had to operate right away, and everything ended up fine. But the doctors kept commenting that if he hadn’t been brought in as soon as he was there would have been brain damage or death. But because of Tony’s constant with the Lord and they got him to the hospital so fast, he had a very successful surgery and very quick recovery. Of course, Tony gives all the glory to the Lord. 2)There was a woman having twins in the church. The one baby had come and the midwives were just waiting for the other to come. It had only been a little while. Pastor Tony was studying and writing, and he came out right in the middle of writing and said, “The Lord’s telling me to take her to the hospital right away or she and the baby will die. Of course they acted immediately on his instruction, and the doctor had to rush her into an emergency C-section because they said the woman’s womb was closing up with the baby still inside. Again they kept saying that if she wouldn’t have gotten there when she did both her and the baby would have died.

There have been so many times that I have been going through something and never told anyone. I just prayed to the Lord about it, and the same day the Lord will give Tony a message or have him say something that will be exactly what I needed to hear at that time. There was no way he would’ve known unless he was hearing from the Lord. I’ve had a thought come across by brain, and just as it was going through my brain, he told me what I was thinking. These are things that no one can argue with because I know for a fact that they are true, and these are a few of the reasons that nothing you all say will convince me that Tony is not of the Lord. I haven’t even mentioned the obvious: the millions of souls he has won to the Lord. “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matt. 7:20). “He that winneth souls is wise” (Prov. 11:30). So he that wins the most souls must be the wisest. You would do well to listen to him.

There’s so much more I could say. But these are just a few of the reasons I know Pastor Alamo to be of the Lord. I know God has called me into this ministry. The Bible says, “Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called” (I Cor. 7:20). So anyone who tries to tell me to do other wise, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” I’m here because I know God wants me here. My fear is not “taught to me by the precepts of men” (Isa. 29:13). God has dealt with me personally, and I will never listen to human flesh.

Anyone who happens upon this message board, if the Lord is leading you to come to the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries and you listen to these people’s lies and let them sway you, instead of heeding God’s calling, you are conferring with flesh and blood, and you will be led astray. This is why the Lord says, “Take heed what you hear” (Mark 4:23).

Remember these words to a song: “You won’t lose a friend by heeding God’s calling, for what is a friend if he wants you to fall. Others find pleasure in things I despise. I like that old Christian life.”
Misheal

[rattlesnake (rattlesnake)]

Moonflower:
True, those are great things that happened and yet, amazingly enough, God performs miracles and he speaks to people all over the world. The most amazing thing of all is that God speaks to people and performs miracles for people and the majority of these people don't have to live in a foundation where children are abused, molested and married off as children brides, not to mention having to live as concubines to some man who has a hard time being sexually satisfied with one woman.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, deep down, Tony got a little worried and decided he better seek outside help so he would not end up in hot water if something went wrong? Always a possibility, you know.

[moonflower (moonflower)]

In light of everything that is being said on this message board, the Lord keeps bringing this scripture to my mind. (No, Tony didn’t remind me of this scripture like you are probably going to say. I talk to the Lord myself, and believe me, I’ve talked to him about you people.)

“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you” (Matt. 5:11-12). “Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! For so did their fathers to the false prophets.”

You people will be some of the very ones that will be sending gifts to each other when the two witnesses are dead, lying in the streets for three days. You’ll be sending the gifts because they tormented you so much with the truth of the Word of God. I’m sure you would be so happy if something would happen to Pastor Alamo, but remember there’s nothing you can do until he has accomplished everything the Lord has for him to accomplish. Even then, remember, you won’t keep him down for long, just a few days. Then you know what happens next. Praise God for the victory we have in Jesus Christ! We win remember!

Misheal

[rattlesnake (rattlesnake)]

Moonflower,
For someone who says they don't have much time on their hands, you could have fooled us. It is evident there is not much imagination as you just keep repeating yourself.
I guess time will tell, right, and I for one am more than willing to wait and see because I can assure you that some one guilty of Tony's behaviour is not one that God would use as a "witness".

Happy rambling!!!! Adios

[legion (legion)]

hey moonflower got a littel brokenrecord sydrome going on or are you so brainwashed you keep replaying over and over and over like a goddam robot ohwell and another one bites the dust

[skeptik (skeptik)]

ivy (ivy)
Member
Username: ivy

Post Number: 93
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.200
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 5:48 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
skeptik,
DO NOT ASSOCIATE "SINNERS PRAYER..GUY" WITH IRISH JEDI. IRISH JEDI HAS NOT EVEN POSTED FOR QUITE AWHILE. "SINNER..." IS ACTUALLY HAND IN HAND WITH YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES.


And Ivy, I'm proud to call them my colleagues. Now how 'bout that?

[beccasue1975 (beccasue1975)]

NOTICE there is an UNDERSCORE after the 1975....
That is the FAKE Becca.... the annoying one...

[ivy (ivy)]

skeptik,
You and rattlesnake have never even lived at the church and you only THINK you know what goes on there. I spent my whole life there and never experienced even ONE SINGLE ATROCITY MENTIONED BY YOUR WICKED COLLEAGUES. I lived in a beautiful two story home, my parents had their own vehicles and we had home phones,cell phones, tvs, sterios and plenty of spending money. That was my life, I lived it. I have travelled to many places in the United States and have been given many wonderful opportunities. I will not stay quiet while people get on this message board and lie. You are not going to tell me what goes on in the church. I mean get real... You are the very one who uses supermarket rag sheets as if they are some kind of reliable source of information and stupid gossip shows that bored housewives sit down and watch all day. WHAT A WASTE OF BREATH.

[jules11468 (jules11468)]

Ivy, just because you did not experience the things that have been said on this message board, doesnt mean they didnt happen. "That was my life, I lived it" I will not stay quiet while people get on this message board and lie" - Isnt that what you said??? Well the same goes for me!

Alot of people never saw the beatings that happened there, for example the single brothers that were out on tree crew or people living in Nashvile or other outposts. If you didnt live on the Ridge or perhaps you didnt have children, then maybe you didnt see it happening; but it for sure doesn't mean that it didnt happen because I saw it with my own eyes.

Just say "hey, I never saw that happening" But dont say it never happened.

[wilma (wilma)]

Ivy,
Can you respond to this post, please? When I left in 1996 people were not allowed to have TV's in there houses with the exception of VERY FEW priviledged people. There was one phone to about every ten houses and Tony got angry one night and had a couple people go around and confiscate people's phones (I believe your Mom was one of the people who gathered up the phones, ask her). Did your Mom and Dad OWN the vehicles they were driving? Were they registered in their name?? Probably not. Didn't you say you are 16 now and have been out of the Foundation for awhile? Your Mom and Dad separated about four years ago right?

Ivy, I think that you know more about the bad things going on in Tony's house than you are saying or will admit to yourself. I know he threatened many little girls that they would go to hell if they told. I know that because your sister still lives in his house you are probably trying to protect her. You are wrong though. Telling the truth would help Jamie and expose this vile evil man.
Please think about it.
Susie G

[ivy (ivy)]

My mom was severely beat and abused more than you can imagine. I will not get into details here. She ended up being a woman with a lot of problems. Thank GOD and only GOD she found a tract on the ground and got saved. GOD healed her broken heart and her tormented soul. BELIEVE ME she would have been a great menace to society. Going through the things she experienced she is strongly and fiercly against child abuse of any sort. I trust her. I know that she would not allow my sister and I to live in a place where she didn't think it was safe. I report what I know on this message board. I have always felt safe there. This world is OVER RATED!! I am "free" to do a lot of things.... but I choose not too. I have a conscience toward God. Just because I am not at the church does not mean I can start using the same vile language that a majority of you use. I choose to live my life clean and pure and a lot of you have chose to be "pseudo-christians", you want the TITLE of Christianity but you don't have the TESTIMONY of a christian. Remember ...Agrippa had the title, and Paul had the testimony. You may not understand what I just said, because that is how far away you are from being a real christian.

[wilma (wilma)]

Ivy,
You said referring to your Mom, "Thank GOD and only GOD she found a tract on the ground and got saved. GOD healed her broken heart and her tormented soul." Yes, Ivy you are right. God deserves ALL the glory. He dealt with your Mom's heart and saved her. It just proves that God in His majesty can even save someone by reading an Alamo tract. (Tony can repeat scripture and even though he is a vile man, the scripture does not return void).....No one is disputing that. People even get saved and dealt with by God in the Catholic church. In Philippians 1:15-18 it says, "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will; the one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: but the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in PRETENCE or in truth, Chirst is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

You said, "I know that she would not allow my sister and I to live in a place where she didn't think it was safe." I don't think she would KNOWINGLY do this either. I know she wants the best for her kids. Just like we all do. But Ivy, you and your Mom need to open your eyes and hearts to the truth. Your Mom lived at the Foundation and does KNOW that Tony is a polygamist and has many underage wives. And now your sister is living in Alamo's house. That is not a good arrangement.

I'm going to repost some info I posted the other day on another thread (to TommyR) in case you missed it:

"We are here to discuss the Alamo Foundation. You say that you have never witnessed any beating of children there. Ok, that is your experience. I guess maybe you came in the late 90's after I left. I left in '96 so I don't know you. After the Justin Miller beating in 1987 and felony child abuse charges were filed, things toned down a little in that area. (Maybe Tony only beats people in the privacy of his own home now) But please don't doubt that people on this board
are telling the truth about abuse their kids suffered. Most everyone in the Fnd in the 80's witnessed extreme child abuse. Tony even went on a "smite the scorner" campaign where he made the adults slap each
other in the face. I personally was smacked in the face by another "sister" at Tony's orders.

Later he even had adults spanking the teachers. Yes, I know that sounds absurd, but it did happen. A few of the teenage boys (one was Kenya) were rough-housing in the bathroom at the school and were
splashing water. A teacher (Dorothy Curry) reported it to another teacher (Pete Kertesz) so that he could reprimand the boys. Well, somehow Tony found out about it and Dorothy got in tons of trouble for
not reporting it directly to Tony....he wanted all the CONTROL. So he ordered Dorothy to receive SWATS. Shelly Borek Garner whipped Dorothy with a belt. Pete Kertesz got whipped too. I don't know if it was with a belt or a board. He could clarify that for us. I think others got whipped that night too. I don't know because I wasn't there but word got around real quick. If Tony was giving orders to whip the adults you just wondered "what was next?". You know what, Tommy? That was a very humiliating experience for an adult but people endured it because they were afraid to leave the Fnd for fear that they would go to hell, as was taught.

So please don't tell us that we are liars. You weren't there. Just consider for one moment that we may be telling the truth.
Susie G

[helives (helives)]

Ivy
You posted that we are liars. Would you tell which facts that I posted you are referring to?

1. The children on Georgia ridge were beaten bloody at Tony Alamo's command.

(There is no way no can deny this happened - you didn't live there at the time.)
I have no reason to lie about these beatings.


2. Tony Alamo married underage virgin daughters of congreation members and has multiple wives.

(this is not a lie - Tony's own lips told me this information while in front of the peabody hotel in memphis)

It would be better for you to admit you didn't know about the Georgia Ridge beatings than to post on here that people are lying. Some of the kids that are now grown adults have posted descriptions of the cruel beatings they received at Tony Alamo's command. Adults have posted about being smitten on Tony Alamo's command.

If you don't know about the many wives that Tony Alamo has then you are not one of his trusted people who are allowed to see the real Tony Alamo behind closed doors. You then have seen the public Tony Alamo. '

Stop calling people you don't know or ever met liars, remember just as you are redeemed and saved so am I. Don't forget what you've done unto the least of mine or you have done unto me. So becareful of the name calling and how you judge someone you don't know because what you sow you shall also reap.

Take care, remember this message board is not about you -

Let Tony defend himself. After all he is the self proclaimed world pastor. So here is a great forum for him to get up and defend himself on the world wide web!

[skeptik (skeptik)]

Ivy,
Still proud to call them my colleagues.

No I did not live there, but I have eyes and ears, and I can tell when I am getting the runaround, too.

And, among things, when I see a few things I'm not supposed to see like a fleabag motel converted to residences for the Foundation (and they still looked pretty fleabag even as apartments), while a few priveleged members get nicer houses, and while Comrade Alamo gets to live in the mansion, well, I go by what I see. Grow up, little girl.

Speaking of the tabloids, did anybody around the Foundation tell you how Elvis supposedly died, at least according to them?

[ivy (ivy)]

Have you ever been in anyone's homes? You have no understanding whatsoever of how people live. If some people chose to be slobs what does that have to do with Tony? My family didn't live like that. So I am speaking for my family. Tony didn't tell us what kind of furniture we should have and when to mow the lawn etc... my parents kept our home very nice and clean and God blessed us with many fine things. What does Elvis have to do with this? Stick to the subject.

[skeptik (skeptik)]

Ivy, buy a clue, little girl.

If I see inequity, I'll call it what it is. If I see the Lord of the Manor enjoying a better lifestyle than his flock, I'm gonna call attention to it. And if I see him going through woman after woman, I'm gonna ask questions; I understand that divorce is only applicable in certain situations (that comes from the book you guys like to claim to follow). If I see way too much regimentation and control due to the quirks of some insecure little man rather than the dictates of the Word, I'm gonna say something. And if way too many people complain about excessive discipline or sex abuse, I'm gonna get to the bottom of things. If this wasn't happening, why not choose to debate this point-by-point, rather than slinging mud and making accusations?

One more thing,Ivy, what do the tabloids have to do with this? Not a thing! It's completely irrelevant (though certain brothers related an Alamo Urban Legend about it), or as irrelevant as your little cracks, anyway.


And BTW, I'd hardly consider KTUL news as gossip.

[ivy (ivy)]

skeptik
no mudslinging here..How do you plan on getting to the bottom of this? You are only looking at one point of view. I personally believe that you are one of those people who are consumed with "propaganda". most likely you spend many hours being consumed with news talk shows/debates or anything with sensationalism.

What is excessive regimentation? Isn't that a matter of opinion?

I mentioned the tabloids because on past posts you were using "tabloid shows" as a "good" source of information in regards to the foundation. What ever happened to "A Current Affair"?

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

ARE THERE ANY "KIDS" FROM THE 80'S THAT WERE THERE AT THE SPEC HOUSE WHEN THE GIRLS AND BOYS WERE SPANKED FOR FLIRTING WITH EACHOTHER? IF SO COULD YOU PLEASE TELL WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE? I NEED PEOPLE TO VOUCH FOR THIS! MY MEMORY IS VAGUE!

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

WHAT I REMEMBER WAS TONY BEING ON THE SPEAKERPHONE ORDERED THAT BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS GET SPANKED WITH THE BOARD BUT MY MOTHER STEPPED UP AND ASKED IF THE GIRLS COULD GET IT WITH A BELT AND THANK GOD SHE DID. I WAS THE FIRST GIRL TO GO I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO SPANKED THE GIRLS AND CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER IF IT HURT I DO HOWEVER REMEMBER TELLING MYSELF I WOULDN'T GIVE TONY THE SATISFACTION OF MAKING A PEEP........AND I DIDN'T. THE MAIN THING THAT STICKS IN MY MIND BESIDES THE HUMILIATION OF IT WAS WHEN THEY BEAT ADDISON BENSON AND HE <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> IN HIS PANTS THEY HAD TO STOP AND CARRY HIM TO THE BATHROOM A COUPLE OF TIMES. THAT HAS STAYED WITH ME VIVIDLY ALL THIS TIME WE WERE 11-16 YRS OF AGE ALL OF US I AM NOW 27. PLEASE IF ANYONE HAS SOMETHING THEY REMEMBER ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR DAY PLEASE SAY SO!

[skeptik (skeptik)]

Well, Ivy, I must admit that "A Current Affair" did have some sensationalistic elements to it, and enough of it to thus technically be considered a tabloid. But there were other stories featured on there (including but not at all limited to the Alamo story) that were quite informative and enlightening. By the way, I understand that Fox News' Shepard Smith got his start there, but I digress.

Now, Ivy, are you asking me what happened to A Current Affair ratings-wise, or are you asking me how it figures into my evaluating information? When we mention tabloids in a previous post, I tend to avoid the scandal-sheets found in the supermarket. They are not only erroneous and misleading, they are also kind of disturbing too, depending on the particular rag that's on display. I mean, some really chiiling, creepy stuff.

Nextly, I believe that there is a difference between propoganda and information; I won't say for a minute that I know everything that happened at the Foundation and never will. I was only a visitor, not a part of TA's trusted few, much less a resident. I can only go by what I see, just as everyone else here can only do, including yourself.

When I think of propoganda, I think of it as a device used solely in a socio-political context, typically by politicians and certain parties on Fox News, playing to baser emotions and prejudices; perhaps the word you are searching for is "spin-doctoring.". These are not propogandists on the board, at least, not among my colleagues, and there's no instance on our part for spin. They are merely giving vent to what they'd seen and experienced while there. As for what they'd experienced, sure there is an emotional component at work. I think if I'd gone through the very things they'd seen or experienced, I couldn't report it dispassionately.

As for only looking at one point of view, I visited, talked with those that could speak with me, did the research from all angles. What more can I do? I've no intention of living at the Foundation, that's for sure.

As for excessive regimentation in specific, even as a non-member, the gentleman who'd established himself as a tutor/elder to whom I must submit liked to take it upon hiself to tell me when to read the Bible, what to read while I was in the Word. He liked to tell me exactly how to pray, and when it comes to what to pray for, it always had to benefit the Foundation. Always had to dictate what we (and by we, I mean me and him) were going to do that afternoon/evening, from arriving at the church, to going up to the ridge, etc. He evidently felt he had to supervise my every move while in his presence, from my speaking with a "brother" about life in general, to going through the line at the cafeteria. Everyone in a certain place at a certain time doing a certain thing, everything carefully planned and dictated. It got so bad between me and this person, that we had a huge shouting match at a travel plaza outside Sallisaw, and it almost turned violent, I wanted to punch him out, quite honestly. Because it wasn't about discipleship and serving God; it was about some patronizing, condescending little control freak trying to take over my life. I could go deeper on this, but I believe you have the idea. And if it was like this for an outsider, how worse was it for those inside it. Perhaps in another post, or by email, we can discuss more specifics of it, as there was so much more to it for me. And scouring the posts, you have my email, no doubt.

And I do apologize for the "grow up, little girl" comments directed at you. That was very condescending on my part, and not at all consistent with my ideal of all of us being equal on this board. While I still hold to what I have observed, I have certain rules of etiquette that I beleive that I have to follow on the net, and that's a rule I'm not too proud to say was overlooked. My sincere apologies.

[raisedthefoundationalso (raisedthefoundationalso)]

Hello skeptik, if you don't mind giving it out, what is your name? I didn't catch it if you already put it on here somewhere.

[skeptik (skeptik)]

I've nothing to hide. I'm William "Bill" Jaynes, I tend to go by Bill; I'm informal that way.

(Message edited by skeptik on November 15, 2005)

[ivy (ivy)]

Bill, the individual who you are speaking of as a tutor/o.c. was obviously acting on their own. I have seen many of the older Christians act quite the opposite. People are not robots there. A lot of people probably did act strange but you cannot pin that on ONE person. Tony is not God. He cannot control how people act. I for one don't act like that but I also am not considered one of your colleagues. I know how to communicate with someone whether or not they are considered "believers" or not. That is not the issue though. I don't believe it is fair to judge that what your colleagues are saying is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH; then judge what someone, such as myself has to say is A LIE. I didn't live a lie. I most likely am the most recent one who left (on this board) and I am telling you that the abuse is not happening to children. I would never defend someone who I know is abusive like that.

[skeptik (skeptik)]

Ivy, if it was just one, that would be fine. But it wasn't just one of them, not by a long shot. And some went a little further with it. I'm downright livid as I repeat this, angry at the situation I was in.

One wanted me to provide some names of my professors, scrutinizing what I was being taught, putting me on the hot seat about it all, while his buddy wanted to get a directory of the memberships some of the extracurricular clubs and organizations I belonged to. I had another "brother" trying to meddle in a relationship I was having with a young lady I was in college with, claiming that I was putting her above the Lord (I wasn't), and trying to get to meet her "to screen her," he said; I never put her in that kind of situation nor did I introduce her to them. I fight my battles, and won't put my lady into a tense situation like this anyway.

These "brothers" tried to come between me and my parents and family, me and my friends, and even tried to underrmine my relationship with the church I as already a member of.

One of them was rather skeptical that I was already born again before coming into contact with them, obviously trying eagerly to find some kind of loophole that may necessitate his "counsel" and "direction"; he was always trying to sell me onto moving into the foundation.

He was suspicious of the church I belonged to, suspicious of the pastor, of its members. He was of the attitude that if I wasn't prayed through by a member of the Alamo Church, then how could I possibly have been born again? If I wasn't attending services at the Foundation or living there, how could I possibly be living a Godly life? If I wasn't going through the "persecution" that they were supposedly facing, how could I possibly be serving God?

And one day, when I was discussing a lecture I'd had in class that day, he pretty much tricked me into repeating your version of the sinners' prayer. And he was gleeful about it, because he said that I was now obligated to move into the foundation. I promptly refused, and that set off some huge arguments and skirmishes that lasted until I turned my back on the entire mess.

As for Tony not being God, well I know that, and you've admitted as much. But when I see the reverence for him, the near-canonization of him, ignoring the frailties, mythologizing him in a manner befitting a figure from ancient myths and legends; when they make all of these claims about the amazing things he's supposedly done, the innovations, the stands he takes, I do get suspicious, because this is life. It ain't the movies. So I do my own research, and I find the facts are a little different from the party line. But that's another topic for another thread.

For another example, the scriptures are specific about how a couple can and must divorce. After Susan, how many wives has he had? Why'd he divorce so many of them? If perhaps one or two died spiritually, fallen away or committed adultery, then perhaps that's a good rationale. But that'll only fly once or twice. Did he make a bad selection in wives, or did he trade up? Or did they have an idea of what he was really like and lefty him? One divorce I can handle, and maybe it may be her fault. But more than one, then I'm skeptikal. I'm an outsider, and even I can see that the Mighty Alamo loves the ladies.

As for my colleagues telling the truth, there does not seem to be some concentrated conspiracy of trying to bring down the Foundation, so I'm not buying the "pesecution" line. I doubt that they met in some secluded hideaway to discuss slandering the Foundation and Alamo. Even so, when memebers of various generations and eras of the Foundation talk about discipline, with one or two admitting that they didn't do right by their kids in this regard, get on here and discuss these things, I have to ask questions. Sure, some of my colleagues may be considered belligerent by the layman, and maybe even by yourself, but perhaps there's reason to be. I know if I'd had my rear end paddled 40 times or so for something trivial and harmless or even for something I didn't even do, I'd be tempted to clean someone's clock! Isn't there a verse of not driving one's children to wrath?

On another post, I'd pointed out that I alone would see to the discipline of my kids. Not the pastor, not his inner circle. And I wouldn't spank, anyway, except as a last resort when all othwer means have failed. If someone else decided to paddle my kid like that, they'd have a more serious problem on their hands, and that'd be me!

As for sex abuse, they've given names and ages of these victims. Nobody among those mentioned have really come here to refute it. All I can say is let the DHS investigate Alamo and the parents, and let the chips fall where they may. In other words, if it had been my wife or daughter and some slick decided he wanted to add her to his harem, well, once again, I can be a real rain on someone's parade!

Ivy, I could go into more detail, and I probably will as this board develops. There's more to what I saw and dealt with. But at least you met me half-way here, and I can respect that much.

[wilma (wilma)]

Ivy,
We are all seeking the truth here. You have stated that you had a good experience at the Alamo Foundation and no one is denying that you had a good childhood. That is wonderful and that is your experience. Others have had different experiences there, before you were even born. That is their experience and there are many witnesses and court evidence to back up what they are saying.

Ivy, you have said there is no abuse going on (that you have witnessed)....I assume you mean beatings.

There have been many people who have stated that they know Tony Alamo has multiple wives (or whatever he refers to them as). When I left the Foundation in 1996 Tony had seven wives. He did have nine "wives" at one time but then Jody Fryer and Tami Sprinkle left. None have left since then. If you have visited him in prison and been in his house you must know this. You must know that Tony has a little boy (Tabor would be almost 12 yrs old now ) and a little girl with Lizzy too.
You do know this, right? Didn't you think it was strange that Alys, Pebbles, and Desiree never got to go home and visit their parents. That their Mom's always had to come visit them at Tony's house?

Ivy, you said to Skeptik, "How do you plan on getting to the bottom of this? You are only looking at one point of view." Ivy, we can only get to the bottom of this if you will be honest.

Please don't ignore my question. If you are being honest and straightforward with us you will tell the truth and not ignore or skirt the issue again.

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

does anyone know how old lizzy's daughter would be now?

[ivy (ivy)]

hey the girls you mentioned are my friends and we all went to school together and had fun together. some of us did not want to go home. my mom was very offended when me and my sister didn't want to go home (new york). she wrote letters and cried all the time. We just had so much fun. That is simple. We finally came home, but then when Mary Jane moved to n.y. we wanted to go back to Tony's house. OUR CHOICE/PARENTS PERMISSION. Tony said we had to ask our parents. Same with the other girls you mentioned. We all asked to stay. I went back and forth several times. As for the children you are mentioning... to be honest.. I never questioned whose kid was whose.. we (the girls) were separated from the boys I didn't speak to them and didn't ask questions about them. I was too busy having fun. I have never heard such perverted stuff till I read stuff on this message board...absolutely disgusting stuff.

[wilma (wilma)]

Ivy,
I appreciate you trying to set the record straight. I am assuming that you and your friends were homeschooled. Am I right? I hear Tony has a swimming pool and so that would be a lot of fun with your friends. If you stayed at Tony's house you must have been aware that a lot of the women there were considered his wives. Were you aware that Amy Eddy and Pebbles were his wives also?

I know you have good memories there but didn't you think it was a little strange that Tony has all those cameras monitoring the house?

If you enjoyed yourself there so much, what prompted you to leave the Foundation? You know that when people leave they are usually considered "backsliders" by Tony. Do you still get the tapes from Tony's messages?

Just curious and seeking the truth. I appreciate you responding to my post. Do you remember me? I used to work in the tape department. You used to hang out with me, but you were very little, probably 5 yr old.
Susie G

[ivy (ivy)]

I left the church because at the time I was not getting along with a certain girl. and I said something very offensive to her (which I am sorry for now) and I was throwing a fit about it (which I am not proud of) and so I wanted to come and see my mom. Tony said that my dad could drive me and he gave my dad money to take me. Me leaving had nothing to do with Tony. I was being a brat. Amy and Pebbles are not wives... besides I never asked questions about people's personal lives. We were being taught good things (besides regular school) we were having cooking classes, a lot of us were learning different languages, some sewing etc.. things we are supposed to learn, things that would be beneficial to many. Oh.. I never thought it was strange about the cameras. The cameras are everywhere. I am used to it. I think the cameras are useful tools when it comes to crazy people trying to trespass on your property with the intent to do something evil. My mom plans on putting cameras on her property too someday...and she has guard dogs (sorry no watchmen) it is for security thats it. I think I was your rider a few times.

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

ya why is it that there had to be a rider? thats not normal! lol neither is you not putting 2 and 2 together and realizing a young woman who has a daughter is not married? ya did u ever wonder who lizzy was married to? give me a break!!!!!

[starksk (starksk)]

Holly the next time you go the grocery store you better take a rider or I'm going to report you!

LOL - what a damn joke!!

TA just doesn't want anyone trying to escape.

[smitty (smitty)]

After spending many thousands of hours on Nightwatch and Daywatch I have never recalled an instance any "crazy" person or otherwise coming on any Foundation property to do harm. If anything... people stayed away because they thought WE were the crazy ones!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
It was far more common to intercept people trying to leave and trying to get them to go back and talk to Tony or Sue

[wilma (wilma)]

Savannah (Ivy),
Yes, you're right. You were my rider at times. You have a good memory. You were so young, I didn't know if you would remember me. I have lots of pics of the kids and a really sweet close-up of you and Micaiah Sweat together.
Thanks for clearing up the reason you left. It is understandable that you would miss your Mom and want to see her. I'm sure you miss the girls you grew up with too. I know when I left I missed everyone so much. I had spent 25 years there and left behind many people that I love to this day. (It is so sad to me that no one there is allowed to talk to anyone that leaves the Foundation...Tony's rules). I hope you have made some new friends out here. I found out that there are LOTS of good people out here that love the Lord.

I'm still not clear about one thing I asked you about. I wondered if you were aware while you lived in Tony's house that Sharon, Lydia, Isabel, Angel, Lizzy, and Jeanne were Tony's wives. I knew they were when I was there, because Alamo told me himself.

Does Tony now deny that these girls are his "wives"? We know that it is in the IRS case court records that Lydia Willis had Tony's son Tabor at a local hospital by c-section. (Lydia and Tabor stayed at my apartment at Jeanne Estates in 1996 when Lydia got in trouble and was put "in ward"...I know that wasn't a figment of my imagination. ) We also know that Tony fathered a little girl with Lizzy Guitierrez. Certainly, if you were an observant teenager you would know this, living in Tony's house....even if you were encouraged not to ask questions.

Tony stated in his Polygamy Tract, "The law pertaining to multiple wives is pure, holy, scriptural, righteous, and of God. And to say that it is not is evil, devilish, unscriptural, unholy, and ungodly." Why does he now deny these women are his wives when he stated so boldly in his Polygamy tract that this was God's will?

Again, I appreciate you responding to my post.
Susie G

[twopilgrims (twopilgrims)]

IVY I HAVE A QUESTION
YOU SAID: "Amy and Pebbles are not wives...)"
THEN WHY ARE THEY LIVING IN HIS HOUSE?
IS THAT WHERE THEY LEARN TO COOK ECT.?
WHO TEACHES THEM?

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

ya right considering tony beat kids for flirting why does he have young girls in his house? thats ungodly

[twopilgrims (twopilgrims)]

Ivy my capital letters was an oversight. i didnt turn off the caps because i already started my post. I want to make sure you know i wasnt yelling at you because of the caps.. EVERYONE, sometimes I use caps just to highlight a word, so you all know please im not yelling. I just dont feel the need to scream or yell..If im gona yell ill say "im yelling now" all caps for sure... lol
connie
connie

[ivy (ivy)]

I don't know what Tony told you. That is none of my business. i don't believe i should be spreading stories here. Especially since I don't have any facts.
Lots of older sister taught us to cook etc.. at the church.
I don't know if Amy and Pebbles still live there. like I said we all were coming and going especially in the summer. As for people living there..heck even my mom was offered to stay there when she separated from my dad. That was purely so that Tony could counsel her. Nothing permanent. Another lady (i will not mention her name) but she is a grandmother and a sweet and wonderful woman, lived there for awhile, so she could get a break from a busy life back in FT Smith. Tony is a Pastor and a lot of people want to be around him. The brother and sisters.

[arron (arron)]

is tony alamo the cult leader dead i know his wife is. i am talking about the tony alamo that was head of the tony alamo church.

[holdol27 (holdol27)]

so the brothers stayed at his house too? aren't the men and woman seperated now?

[wilma (wilma)]

Savannah,

I heard Vicki Larison was living down there too. Vicki lived with us in New Jersey in 1991 after the raid. I really miss her. She use to make us "thunder pizza". How is she doing? I heard her health was pretty bad.

Susie G

[wilma (wilma)]

Savannah,

You stated, "I don't know what Tony told you. That is none of my business. i don't believe i should be spreading stories here. Especially since I don't have any facts."
If you or your sister are spending time in Tony's house it certainly is YOUR business. You seem like a smart girl. I know Tony has told you and his followers that polygamy is God's will and I guess therefore you believe it is okay. But Tony has created this lie in order to lure little girls into his harem and to fulfill his lusts.
I hope and pray that you will desire to learn the truth.
Susie G

[twopilgrims (twopilgrims)]

I am Praying that God will open there hearts so that there eyes and ears can see and hear.
The heart speaks truth louder then the mouth speaks lies.

[twopilgrims (twopilgrims)]

Oh I really Loved Vicky also
I miss Larison also
What a good brother he was here. Cant wait to see them again

[safenowinspite (safenowinspite)]

aaron, tony is still alive, the tony that is the head of the Alamo foundation. That is the Tony we are discussing on here, and all the horrible things that went on there. Many denie it because they are still there and if they say anything, they will be tossed out on the street.

[helives (helives)]

Aaron
Tony is alive still, he has been very busy the last 14 years or so preaching polygamy doctrine to foundation people. In return for them not being kicked out or the fear of eternal hell fire, they believe tony's false claims that the Lord is telling him to marry their under age virgin daughters.

Did you live in the foundation?

Are you Ty Cobb's brother?