Join Us

[heynow]

Okay, I saw the film "Join Us" yesterday. This was in Westwood and it is part of the current L.A. Film Festival going on there through the weekend.
Yes, it is about a cult (very similar to T&S) I think most everyone will want to see it so, if you want details I can post it. However, it might spoil it if you plan to see it.
Okay now, The film festival is very popular so, I am not sure if it was due to the popularity of the film or the festival but, there were at least 600 people in the theater watching it. At the end of the film everybody clapped. The quality was excellent and I am surprised folks were interested in the content.
Like I mentioned. I can share more of the film if you like.

[saved_21570]

Share bro, share.

[wilma]

Please, heynow, we'd love to hear your take on it.
Not just the story line, but if you also may have realized things about the Alamo group that maybe you hadn't realized until you watched this movie. I'm glad to hear the quality was excellent. Hopefully, this movie will get a lot of exposure and will be a tool to educate the innocent.
SG

[wilma]

Link to information about the movie: http://joinusthemovie.com/mainflash.html
***********************

The movie follows four families as they enter Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center, their treatment and their struggle to return to a “normal” life after being trapped in the insidious grip of a destructive high control Christian Fundamentalist Cult.

The following is a statement by the film maker about the JoinUs Movie…

How JOIN US began:
I became interested in the subject of mind control after making DIG! As I observed the
charismatic leader of The Brian Jonestown Massacre, Anton Newcombe, attract 50 to 100
members to his band. For years I watched as the devotees gave everything they had and then
burned out. Some went on to have successful bands, but most faded into obscurity, or joined the
real world of adults after a period of recovery. I began to suspect mind control was part of Anton’s
mystique. The subject of mind control took on broader and darker implication with the results of
recent elections where seemingly diabolical but perhaps brilliant campaigns caused large voting
blocs to cast their ballots against their own best interests on many issues. Why did so many
people seem to lose sight of the facts? Was this mind control at work on a national level? The
combination of these things lit my fire to find out what was really going on in America. The
population of churches post 9/11 had reached an all time high as well, which made me think that
perhaps people were desperate to find a program to live by, someone to follow, or a group
identity while being willing to turn in the imperative to question at the door.
We contacted cult experts and centers of study and treatment of brainwashing to try and find a
way into a story we could follow over time. Time, to me, provides the greatest narrative. What I do
is driven by following the serendipity of people’s lives as they unfold, and then uncovering the real
beats to the story in the editing process. Every person’s life story is ultimately fascinating for one
reason or another, (it’s all in the story telling), and in this case we were lucky enough to find a
group of people who were just beginning the process of awakening from the spell they’d been
under and who allowed us to dive deep into their hearts and minds.
Wellspring Retreat, the only accredited cult treatment center in the world, has a two-week, live-in
program which essentially de-programs people emerging from destructive groups. Their
recidivism rate is less than 1%. Wellspring’s program is based on the studies of Dr. Robert J.
Lifton, an Air Force psychiatrist who studied prisoners of war in China in the 50’s and uncovered
8 techniques of mind control. If 6 of the 8 techniques are active in a group, it is considered
destructive and defined as a cult...........

Link to the rest of the review:
http://factnet.org/?p=121

[heynow]

Okay, this movie basically follows three couples (some other former members also). Two couples are in there late 20's early 30's and the other couple is in thier forty's. They all leave the cult and end up at wellspring.
The pastor is about tony's age. His of 20 years wife is involved in the ministry with him. The pastor's name is Raymond (not the spelling they used in the movie). The producers interview everybody. The name of the church is Mount Rock chuch in South Carolina.
There was no polygamy told however there was stories of Raymond beating children.
One of the women named Tanya seems so torn about leaving the cult. It appears she is "sitting on the fence wondering if she has done the right thing about leaving the cult. The other young couple were seperated at the cult. The guy, who later became a contractor after he left realized what was going on and left. His wife divorced him and stayed in the cult. Later she left and they were remarried.
both couples have young children. One scene is one of the young boys being questioned by wellspring staff. I think he is about 6 years old. Went something like this:
Wellspring- "Did Raymond spank you?"
Boy--"Well, he tried."
Wellspring--"What happened?"
Boy--"I hit him in the mouth." (westwood theater roars with laughter)
Wellspring--"What did Raymond do?"
Boy--"Nothin. He sat down in a Chair."

[heynow]

The cult has many nice homes where the members live. Contractor was the major builder but, at the cult he only earned a dollar an hour. I am sorry I can't remember the names. I wanted to take notes but, impossible in a dark theater.
The contractor's sister was an award winning elemetary school teacher before she joined the cult. After she joined Raymond wanted her to teach school at the cult. She did and Raymond did not like the way she taught and told her to get a waitress job, which she did. After 5 years in the cult she left and went to wellspring. Then she moved to California and joined a church. After a message (at the new church) about "submitting yourself." She walked out after the service and left her Bible in the pew. Off camera announcer says she hasn't been to any church since.
Raymond has a MBZ collection and is quite proud of it. He says its his only indulgence.
Okay, after wellspring they want to sue the cult and Raymond. Well. they talk to three different attorneys and they all tell them it might be tough. The contractor wants to try anyway. His young children were beaten by Raymond. It is obvious the contractor has been financially successful "post cult" and he is probably financing a lot of the endeaver. One attorney tells them they must have documented evidence of

[heynow]

Raymond admitting he beat the children. Okay now they come up with a plan to have Tanya call Raymond and ask if they can come to services. Raymond agrees. They show up. Both young couples and their children. Tanya is wearing a hidden camera and micraphone. Believe it or not secret tapings are legal court evidence in South Carolina. After the service Raymond is standing at the pulpit. As gracefully as they can they start quizzing Raymond about spanking their children. Raymond denies everything. Contractor loses his cool (who wouldn't) and starts saying, "Raymond you are lying! Why are you lying?"
They all leave. Tanya has an idea and goes back in the church alone (with a hidden camera of course). Tanya is crying and talking to Raymond. Raymond is crying and as odd as it seems abmits to the beatings. Of course he doesn't know he is being taped.
Nest, The producers arrive at the Raymond's home. They are greeted by

[heynow]

A second in command guy (something like Buster I guess). Again I con't remember his name. SEC (second in command) is in a lot of scenes with Raymond and his wife. Anyway SEC says the pastor is very emotional and something has occured at the service. Surprisingly, Raymonds wife (I think her name is Eva) Comes out and explains they have lost some of the memebers awhile back and claims the contractor "was always a sower of discord" and she holds him responsible. Eventually Raymond comes out and agrees. However there is a scene where Eva starts crying and hugging Tanya. Now then sometimes Eva starts crying.

[heynow]

Eventually the couples moved away from SC and start new lives elsewhere. They estimate Raymond's net worth is approx 5 million dollars. The question is if he has access to that much money why does he even bother with a church (cult) and so forth. One wellspring counselor explained the cult leader needs followers just as the cult members need a cult leader. Very interesting.
Anyway this is some of the movie I can remember off the top of my head. There is a lot more to the movie so, I don't think I spoiled it after all LOL. If you have any questions if might jog my memory.
Oh yes another thing. After two weeks at wellspring they all left. Some of them wanted to stay longer. However, the wellspring staff explained two weeks is enough and they had to leave, otherwise the wellspring staff would become their NEW cult leader.

[heynow]

I think the feeling I got after the movie is the alamo church was not unique. There are many outfits like this all over the country and probably the world. They use some basic tactics. However I did get saved at the alamo outfit. What the alamo outfit is now is almost beyond belief.


Oh yes. Eva (Raymond's wife) kept saying, "Raymond is in the first stage of Alzheimer's. That's why he forgets things." When Raymond is asked if he has Alzheimers (without Eva present) he denies it. So, you see this is an excuse for his inconsistant memory. Something like "lying to the devil" my opinion only.
This "first stage of Alzheimers" was said so many times by Eva in diferent stages of the movie it started "chuckles" from the audience after a while.

[wilma]

Thanks, Heynow, for the review...much appreciated.
A couple statements you made really stood out to me, "I think the feeling I got after the movie is the alamo church was not unique." and "One wellspring counselor explained the cult leader needs followers just as the cult members need a cult leader. Very interesting." So, so true!

When I left the alamo group I started reading lots of books (such as Churches that Abuse, Recovering from Churches that Abuse, Healing Spiritual Abuse, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Captive Hearts Captive Minds, Damaged Disciplies, Combatting Cult Mind-control, etc).
I realized quickly that, like you said, "the alamo church was not unique". I think a small portion of ex-members still think the Foundation was a unique, SPECIAL work of God and that we had some kind of monopoly on THE TRUTH. I am of the belief that a major portion of the doctrine I learned there was CONTRARY to the real gospel of God and was just not true. It was important to me to be able to shed the untruths and going to Wellspring helped me greatly in that endeavor. Like so many have shared, what was special was the bond that the brothers and sisters shared as we lived through such unnecessary adversity.

About Tony and Sue needing the followers, I wholeheartedly agree. They needed subservient followers to obey their every order and
naive young people to adore and worship them...people who thought they could do no wrong.

It is sad when you think about how many families and relationships they destroyed. Most of us came from loving families...I know I did. To think that I didn't see a lot of my extended family members for 25 years is very sad. Tony and Sue usurped the place of our parents and extended families. And we all know how they manipulated relationships inside the Foundation. They arranged many marriages and then would tear families apart. ..which is still the case till today.

I look forward to seeing "Join Us".
Ya think Tony will let his captives go watch it?? NO!

[heynow]

Yes Wilma, Another scene: Tanya, her husband, and chidren moved to Montana. They were so happy. However, there was a large cult (with compound) in city they moved to. Tanya contacts wellspring and they tell her; "Yes, we are aware of that cult." Tanya asks sincerely, "Is there any church that isn't a cult?"

Yes, the cult leaders crave the attention. In the film Raymond and Eva leave town for Europe to "Evangelize". No telling what they are up to. Probably no good from the looks of things.

[wilma]

heynow,
another observation...like someone in the film, a lot of people that come out of cults (including the alamo cult) end up associating with another cult-type organization at least temporarily. One such organization is another controlling church or a multi-level business organization like Amway or Excel phone (don't know if they're still around). If you polled the ex-members you would find this is true for many. When people inform and education themselves about what makes these organizations function than you learn how to recognize and protect yourself from undue influence.

Here is a helpful article for those who choose to go to another church after their Alamo experience:

Choosing a Church After a Painful Experience by Lawrence Pile (Wellspring Workshop associate)

http://www.carlstevens.org/gpage17.html

[alanb]

Wilma,
You're mentioning Amway hit home. I was never in a cult. after I graduated college, a former classmate had several of us over to his house ( this was in 1976) and introduced us to Amway. Needless to say, I don't think any of the group of us who joined got anywhere with it. I did however go to one regional convention. While I was not familiar with "cult" tactics, it was one of the most eerie experiences of my life. Now that I look back on it, they definately were a cult, just not of a specific religious kind, although it seemed like most of the Amway people were in fact religious in there own way, and did espouse that religion was important to be a good Amway rep.
After that experience, Amway and me, we parted ways!

[heynow]

I have never joined Amway. However, over the years I have heard the pitch from time to time. There was even an amway guy that came to Alma and pitched tony. tony had him go to the resturant and have a meeting with the brothers and sisters. tony told us just to play along with the presentation so he could win his soul.
If you listen every "success" Amway (and the like) testimony the success person will have the same story. He started off at the bottom and worked his way to the top and now he is financially independant and "Wouldn't you want to be too?" If you reallly look into it, the success person is only telling you "what" he did. Like "We worked hard and eventually we achieved emerald and then 3 years later we got direct distrubuter." They are not telling you "how" they did it. This goes for any of these deals like buying forclosures etc. If anybody wants to achieve anything I have done, I can explain to them exactly "How" to do it. This will include details which is what you need to know to achieve something.
Listen close to any of those folks. Even Tony Robbins. They only talk about "What" they don't talk about "How."

[saved_21570]

Wilma,

You've hit upon one of the pet reasons I like to avoid the word "cult."

I understand what you are saying about the Amway or Excel, multilevel stuff. The "RAH, RAH" mentality of their conventions are a turn off to me too. What can happen though, is that anyone who is passionate, about anything, can be seen as a "cult," to someone who is not as enthusiastic as they are.

Tony Alamo's crime is not that he is a "cult" leader. So far, in this country we do not have laws against cults. (As someone who has been arrested for a "hate crime" I pray to God that those kind of vague and arbitrary laws are never enacted.)

Tony Alamo is guilty of violent child abuse. Children were held spread eagle by four grown men and beaten purposely, until blood was oozing through their blood soaked pants.

Tony Alamo is guilty of rape. He has forced himself sexually upon multiple young girls who opposed his advances. Some of these girls were as young as 10 or 11 years of age. Remember the horror of the little girl in the trailer screaming as adult stood outside the door refusing to help?

If all he did was have a "cult" filled with zealous deceived adult followers, then go for it.

Tony Alamo is a criminal.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for rape.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for child molestation.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for felony child abuse.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for fraud.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for tax evasion.
Tony Alamo needs to be in jail for taking children across state lines without their parents consent.
Tony Alamo needs to be put in jail for beating his "wives."
Tony Alamop needs to be put in jail for indentured servitude, that he uses to hold people in slavery.

There are probably dozens of more reasons Tony Alamo needs to locked away, and kept out of society, but I hope that for all of our sakes he is never arrested for running a "cult."

TA

[smitty]

Nicely put Tom, sometimes that distinction gets lost.

[heynow]

Of course, This was brought up in the film. The crime of beating children is what they were trying to get Raymond on, not for being a cult leader which is legal in this country. However, to ban all cults get slippery as you pointed out. Unfortunetely, the film suggests this type of government legislation.

[modesto]

That would be some strange legislation.I racked my brain and couldn't think of a single major world religion that wouldn't have seemed like a "cult" in their early stages.Got to be really careful with laws and religion.

[heynow]

Exactly, If you regulate one, you regulate all of em.

[danster]

I know Raimund and his wife Deborah from Mountain Rock Church in Windham, NY. You can find on information on the evil from other posts on Factnet. Search Pastor Melz, Mountain Rock Church.

[pacanfouke]

Was it North or South Carolina that the SPLC reporter Susy was doing her article at before she came to Fouke. It was about a cult there also. Maybe the same one in this film.

[heynow]

Is Raimond back in the U.S. now?

[joaquin_sullivan]

Yes, Raimund still lives in SC. I heard through the grapevine that he's starting (or trying to start) another church in Greenville, SC.

[heynow]

Maybe we will have "Join Us 2"

[brother_d]

I don't know about regulation, but a little more scrutiny wouldn't be such a bad idea. Then maybe we wouldn't have altar boys molested by priests, and children subjected to the mind control of parochial schools. These pariahs get a free ride, while the rest of us are taxed to death.

[simpleword]

Wow D,I have read your follow up post,sounds like you have had a experince you would like to share,please share on.