Meditation Dangers

[uno]

Does anybody know about the adverse effects of meditation, especially for people with depresion and anxiety problems?

[Anonymous]

Is Meditation for Everyone?

This is a short piece from the alt.support.ex-cult newsgroup (22 Mar 97)

SUBJECT: Meditation: downside.

By the mid 1970s, clinical reports of negative (bad) outcomes resulting from various mantra meditation programs began to appear in the psychiatric literature (1). These included people becoming unemployable because they were unable to control their mental states (eg. everything around them seemed unreal), and more serious problems ranging from depression and agitation to psychosis.

Leon Otis, a psychologist at Stanford Research Institute, found that adverse outcomes were related to how long that person had meditated (2). Michael Persinger has found that for some people, meditation can bring on symptoms of complex partial epilepsy such as visual abnormalities, hearing voices, feeling vibrations, or experiencing automatic behaviors (3).

Another concern, explored by Michael Murphy and Steven Donovan, is that advanced practitioners rank high in suggestibility (4), not surprising given its similarity to self-hypnosis.

A number of persons in the US have successfully brought legal suits for damages suffered as a consequence of their participation in meditation programs (5).

In therapy with people treated after meditation programs - who wanted treatment in order to get their lives going again - problems with thinking and attention have been prevalent. Other impairments included emotional difficulties, blackouts, anxiety, "spacing out", amnesia, and losing track of time (6).

This is not to say that everyone who meditates has these difficulties........

The rest is at http://www.cyberpass.net/truth/is.htm

[Anonymous]

Can there be such a thing as too much contemplation?
A study of Buddhist meditators in the United States suggests there are limits to wholesome activities such as meditation practice. In the extreme, long periods of intense meditation can bring about unpleasant changes of mind ­ especially in ‘emotionally fragile Western students,’ the study says.

The author of the report is clinical psychologist Dr. Lois Vanderkooi. She is a clinical psychologist and the author of a research study on the pathology of meditation practice. She’s on staff at the State Mental Hospital in Boulder County, Colorado....

The rest is at http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/Tapestry/meditate.html

[Anonymous]

Harmful Effects
of Transcendental Meditation ®

*****Reported negative effects include muscle twitches, convulsions, headaches, fatigue, sleep disorders, inability to focus -- feeling "spacey", anxiety, panic attacks, depression, dissociation, depersonalization, nervous breakdown, and suicidal ideation.

http://unstress4less.org/Transcendental_Meditation-harmful.htm

[Anonymous]

Possible risks of meditation

Although the positive effects of meditation clearly outnumber and outweigh the negative effects, the latter have also been studied. Potential adverse effects include:


adverse psychological feelings (e.g. feelings of negativity, disorientation) in a small percentage of meditators after meditation retreats

elicitation of acute episodes of psychosis by intensive meditation in schizophrenics.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/indepth.health/alternative.medicine/meditation.html

[Anonymous]

@@@@@@@@@@@TM began to become criticized as actually being harmful, rather than beneficial, to some TM practitioners. In 1978, Psychology Today magazine reported that a "'substantial number' of meditators developed anxiety, depression, physical and mental tension and other adverse effects" (San Francisco Examiner, September 10, 1989, p. E3). "In 1980, the West German government's Institute for Youth and Society produced a report calling TM a 'psychogroup' and saying that the majority of people who went through TM experienced psychological or physical disorders" (Edward Epstein, "Politics and Transcendental Meditation," San Francisco Chronicle, December 29, 1995, p. A1).

The TM organization responded to the critical reports and studies by citing other research studies indicating the beneficial results of meditation. However, many of these same studies also came under criticism, being observed that they often lacked credibility from not being "independently established through rigorous scientific testing" (John Ankerberg and John Weldon, Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs, 1996, p. 438). Beyond TM's frequent failure to cite research maintaining high scientific standards, it was observed that the "TM movement's marketing practices" suggested "a widespread pattern of misinformation, deception, and manipulation of lay and scientific news media aimed to earn both respectability and profits" (The Cult Observer, vol. 8, no. 9, 1991, p. 3).

For more, go to http://www.watchman.org/profile/tmpro.htm

[Brian UK]

It depends on how you meditate. In my experience, a simple relaxed openness (mindfulness) to whatever is going on, without trying to control anything, is the right method. Forced states or belief systems cause problems.

[karen]

I have practice both TM and Siddha Yoga. They both caused severe neourological health problems for me and made it very difficult for me to work.
The brainwahsing of these cults is very powerfull and overwhelming. The bottom line is that mediation is nothing more than hypnois and while under hypnosis one is suggestible to suggestions from beings in the physical and supernatural forms. Humans are not God, and mediatating will not make them Gods.

[Anonymous]

I have done a number of different types of meditation over the years, with differing results. I have done zazen, shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, dzogchen and even tried siddha yoga. The only one of that list which I have serious problems with is siddha yoga.

I have met a woman who had been on solitary Buddhist retreat for 9 years. She was very normal acting, but told me she had lost vocabulary during her retreat. I also have seen Tenzin Palmo, who was on extended solitary retreat in the Himalayas. Tenzin Palmo is a good example of someone who learned to examine, rather than "force" her mind, who has opened herself and gained some realization. She tended a small garden and has emerged to be a positive example to meditators worldwide. I have also met some other American meditators who have achieved some genuine inner peace. None of these have self-styled themselves as "gurus" or teachers. They are modest individuals who wish others well with no agenda, and kindness is their most apparent quality.

However, I have also seen people who place themselves in a meditative cocoon and who are addicted to shaking or going around spaced out all the time as their desired results. Some of these people are very arrogant about their "experiences". I have also been involved briefly in a cult where I witnessed "dissociation states" and the personality worship of their leader who was always talking of how he'd found the way to open himself to ultimate reality. (It was poignant that none of the others had experienced this, many of whom had been his followers for years) I quickly realized that there was no real motivation for their meditation other than narcissism and their serving a guru who was even more narcissistic.

To me the point of genuine meditation is to be, as Thoreau put it, "fully awake". Awake in every part of being. In many Buddhist traditions, there are many warnings about "sinking" or getting "over excited" in your meditation. The great gurus I have seen are vibrant at the same time they are utterly at peace. They don't miss a thing that goes on when you are with them, even if you're sitting in the back row and just having a negative thought. I have felt that the Dalai Lama is not only aware of every person in a huge auditorium but miraculously focused on each, "loving toward each being as to an only child".

What is the motivation for real meditation? For the crux of it is, there is "real meditation" and then there is all the rest. That is the essential point. If the motivation is correct, to generate lovingkindness and compassion, then your meditation is to ultimately help other beings. You are on the right track. Meditation is not to get into a "state" of comfort or peace, although these things may accompany it. It is to free yourself from your preconceptions and to find the ultimate truth which is there all along.

I am a definite believer in the good effects of meditation. After all, I am meditating as I type this, in the sense that I am aware of my deeper self while I do this activity. This deeper self is no trance state. As this forum suggests, there are many roads with dead ends which lead in its direction but which cause disastrous results. Believing in a "guru" who misuses power is one disaster. Allowing yourself to lose your power is to be pulled away into ignorance rather than connect with wisdom. One must have constant vigilance and wisdom to understand why these dead ends occur and keep trying again and again to be fresh, aware and real. There are many great beings and saints who have lived in this world who have achieved something both for themselves and others through meditation.

I wish all who read this the best in their meditation and spiritual practice. Above all, keep questioning yourself and your motivation as well as the motivation of those who you decide to serve.

[Keith]

I was recomended this course by a friend.
-vipassana meditation course:Feb 2003
it was BRAIN WASHING PURITAN CRUD - very scary stuff really, I arrived on wednesday just after 6pm (ment to arrive between 2pm and
5pm) only a couple of people arrived after me! i walked up to the
building with my stuff and asked this guy where u register (having just
ignored the signs telling me) he showed me and told me this would be
his 3rd course, but he's been there for 2 months now - little alarm
bell as i new there was a course at the start of Dec and Jan so this
would be the 3rd, i registered and they asked for my car keys, i asked
why and was told they might need to move my car, other people gave
there keys in, i said i'd keep on to mine as i'd parked in the car park
and couldn't see any reason for it to be moved. i then had some lovely
vegitarian food and was taken to my roon, a large room with a bit of an
uneven floor, five beds in it, knowing we weren't going to be talking
for ten days i didn't want to share a room with four others but nobody
else had any stuff inside the room, and i didn't have to share :-) then
we had our introductory talk and was told it wasn't a religion but was
the same meditation technique that Budda used, it is for everybody
which is why its not religious but for the 10 days don't follow your
religion or use any other techniques as this has caused difficulty in
the past (this was never explained) but they used the analagiey of
riding one horse and trying to ride another horse without getting off
the first one (so trying one religion without leaving your original
one!) it was here we were told that the NOBLE SILENCE must start now
and last until half way through day 10.
Thursday (day 1): 4am GONG wakes u up go shower
4:30 - 6:30 meditate in the hall (u could meditate in your room at
this time but i figured i'd stay in bed if i ever did that)
6:30 - 8:00 was breakfast and from day 2 when i would shower (a second
gogng at 4:20 got me up!)
8-9 SITTING OF STRONG DETERMINATION this was the dodgy bit, an hour of
meditation where u can't move, and if you do u still can't leave the
meditation hall
9-11 meditate in your room or the hall, sometimes the teacher asked u
to stay in the hall ,splitting us into groups of old and new students
male and female so i only had to stay for the new male students bit
otherwise i was in my room.
11-12 lunch
12-1 rest/walk around/ talk to the teacher
1-2:30 meditate (always in my room hall was an option)
2:30-3:30 SITTING OF STRONG DETERMINATION
3:-30-5 hall or room meditate (always my room) sometimes teacher asked
your group to stay
5-6 tea (2 pieces of fruit - nothing for old students)
6-7 SITTING OF STRONG DETERMINATION (final one of the day but this made
30 in the ten days
7-8:30 Discourse - video of cult leader starts off "the 1st day is over
you have 9 more left" each day it counted down like that all taught by
S N Goenka, from Burma but found Vipassan in India, these videos are
from America made in the 1980's. They are used all over the world so
that no matter where you are you all get the same teaching - oddly what
they teach is that everything changes, it comes to be and passes away.
8:30-9 meditate in the hall
9 you could ask the teacher questions but i didn't do this ever because
he was stupid and only gave circular arguments.
then bed, lights out at 10
the first 3 days u just watch your breathing concentrating on the area
around your nostrals, day 4 we started vipassan, but first day 2 after
lunch i went to see the teacher to say i didn't think this course was
for me "why wouldn't you be entitled to this?" was my answer. My first thought was china saying to Taiwan "what have you done thats so terrible as to warrent you leaving the empire" when Taiwan first wanted independence. I then
said I don't hold with your preceps that ALL LIFE IS SUFFERING, this
is where all the cultness comes in and the brain washing but i hadn't
quite realised it yet, during the SITTING OF STRONG DETERMINATION just
before the end with aout 5 minutes to go some chanting starts and some
messages on breating in and out and messages on life is suffering and
this is the only way out of that suffering, 5 minutes on day 1 but this
is re inforced in the video's and 5 minutes on day 1 is actually 15
minutes because there are 3 sittings, plus you do get these messages at
other times in the hall like between 4:30-6:30 and 5 minutes on day 1
is about 25 minutes by day 10 so 1 and a half hours of listening to how all
life is missery and this is the ONLY solution.
Day 2 video tells us that day 2 is a very didicult day when Goenka did
the course he wanted to leave, day 2 and day 6 are the hardest
Day 4 Vippassan starts so let me tell you about the hall!
all the old students are at the front, guys on the left girls on the
right. 3 men isle 3 women, 10 rows, womens side is full new students at
the back guys side is almost full back 5 rows have nobody in the middle
seat and the back row only had one guy, i was second from the back on
the isle side, nobody behind me, you sat on a cussion on the floor but
you could have extra cussions and some people were sat on chairs at the
back if they couldn't stand sitting on the floor. the guy to my left
had dropped out by day 4 and the women on my right freaked out during
the second hour of strong determination running out of the hall not to
return again till the evening and than dropping out.
now there were rules for the hall, no lying down and don't point your
feet towards the chair of the teacher even if he is not in the hall,
naturally i did both. by day 7 these rules displayed in the lobby
where you leave your shoes and coats had been circled to bring extra
attention to them, this obviously worked as the 2 guys in front of me
to my left both started lying down and it seemed the girl to my right
(middle seat as the last one left) also pointed her feet to the
teachers seat - but they had to come into the hall from a different
door, (men and women were seperated throughout)
I was begining to find it to be a bunch of crud. the actual
meditation was concentrating your awareness into one part of your body
like a finger but slowly moving it all around your body from head to
toe and back up again, first time i did this it was like a pill rush
but we were told to do it slowly and make it happen over about 10
minites from head to to toe so i slowed it down to make it last more
than half an hour each way, but this was wrong on day 6 or 7 when the
teacher was asking us about it in groups of 4 the other 3 guys said it
was happening quicker even when they tried to slow it down, the teacher
said that would be happening naturally and that night discourse would
be talking about it, i realised they were slowly building up to a pill
rush over 10 days and thought i could have explained it in about an
hour! on day 8 i went to ask the teacher at lunch if i could put my
attention into the reiki energy - we had to suspend all over religious
or healing practices fot the 10 days to get vipasana in its purest form
a chance. I was told no they are not compatable at all, dont do both
when u go home decide which one you want to do. i was so ****ed off i
stopped doing any meditation started reading my book i'd taken in with
me and doing exercise, thats when i noticed that in the SITTING OF
STRONG DETERMINATION people were in a trance and getting suggestions -
hypnotic suggestions, life is misery, u feel the misery, this is the
way out of that misery, purity and (wholesomeness or something) were
the ways and some other stuff in sanscript. this scared me a bit,
as i realised i'd had a week of it already. Friday day 9 - i decided
to leave and was gonna tell him at lunch but i saw the two guys who sat
infront of me talking at the edge of the field (past the course
boundry) so i went over and met them, D and T from london, T's
first words were if he ever wanted to brain wash anyone he'd hire
Goenka, this relieved me a bit, i told tham i was gonna leave and they
said they weren't cause its so near the end and then at least they know
they've completed it, i chatted to them for ages and got their insights
to the brain wahing of it all, how u got to hear Goenka's voice during
the day so u were used to it by the time u see the video, they didn't
talk to the teacher at all cause they assumed he would be closed minded
after witnessing one evening talk in the hall - i never stayed that
long. and how its so much easier to organise your thoughts when you
speak, you tend to remember it more and have it constructed and
formulated, D's girlfriend A was also on the course she'd done
all the research and picked it out. she'd snuck in chocolate and
managed to give D some in the meditation hall, quite a lot i gather
as that night he gave me some choclate shaped like an egg with a nut
inside! T had some fudge too which cheered me up! once we'd started
chatting it made it a lot easier to be there. we discussed the other
people - not knowing there names and having our own descriptions, some
named after people they remind us of, skin heads, hairy people crazy
people, lost people rude people ignorant people (not having spoke to
any of them) after the discourse another guy S started to talk to us
briefly - he'd gone from an avoid all eye contact to a talker in one
step - other people became eye contacters first then smilers before
little coments then talking - so no one else became talkers really! the
next day was the best hour for the SITTING OF STRONG DETERMINATION
thanks to the girl on my right (new since day 4 after the last one
left) she wasn't meditating either by now, i'd noticed while looking
around the room that a few people had stopped, when the chanting
started i smiled at her and she started giggleing which made me giggle,
suppressed laughter is the most infectious, she had to leave the hall
to go and laugh, when she came back in i'd just managed to stop moving
about and feel calm for about a second and the chanting stopped - for a
acouple of seconds i couldn't contain it any more, one of the old
students (male) had to walk out from laughing he had to walk past every
one, i had to leave along with this other guy and you could hear people
laughing inside :-) funniest moment! some of the true belivers thought
people were crying they didn't get how stupid it all was, the old
student was on his 9th course and had been told off for laughing in
Japan and 2 places in India. all the other old students seemed quite
brain washed and this guy wasn't, when i told him i thought there were
hypnotic messages he was like i've never thought abpout that but your
right and all those foreign words in the chanting are explained to us
in the evening video so our sub conshious will understand them too. all
the other students were like - you so don't get it Keith, this is the
only way to end your suffering. They also seemed very suprised that I wasn't in a troubled state of mind when i came on the course, Dhama comes to you when you need it most, Dhama is the path or natures way that vipassana claims it is. more than 1 old student said that after their first course they felt mentaly and emotionaly balanced for the first time. I pointed out that that meens they arrived feeling mentally and emotionally unballanced and prehaps that made them more suseptible to being brain washed. True believers however can not be got to by reson for they argue: you must not turn this into an interlectual argument or philosophical discussion you must truely experience it for your self - the very words we are given at the start of the course and a few times during it.
on the last night goenka informed us it was exactly 2500 years since
buddah when he was in India he does not know why it was exactly that
and not 2400 or 2600 but it weas 2500 and it was profecised he's be
reincarnated and spread his teachings over the world, yes you guessed it
our video tutor who brain washed us daily was the reincarnation of
Budda - i felt truely lucky and honoured. to help people all over the
world learn his teachings of getting rid of the ego he is building a
1km high temple and pagoda in India - not that this is a religion but
you will find it works and naturally abandon all your old beliefs. On the sunday when it was finished (day 11) there was meditation from 4:30-5 then chanting till 5:30 then the final fairwell video from Goenka, i woke up at 5:30 and missed a bit of the video. He told us that now we must leave we should continue to practice we have lived like a monk or nun for ten days (no religious reason) and should do this once a year even if you can't come back on a course you should do it at home. to try this now with your old belifs is fine but continue to give vipassana a chance and you will soon see it is all you need, if you don't like a bit of it take it out it wont work as well but after a while you will add it back as you see the meditation working, it was all very reassuring, this was where he also stated its not stuff, its not a religion, its not hypnosis, its not just for a select few, its for everyone, very briefly he mentioned hypnosis but it was the only time and he didn't mention suggestions! You must have an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening, it doesn't matter if you have less sleep as this is natural, you are opening up your conscious and unconscious so wont need as much sleep, deep sleep is the same as vipassana (so why do it?) everyone told me to give it 2 weeks and i'd see the diference. I definately wont be as on the final video it said if you don't do any vipassana for a year you will loose all the benefits so thats what i intend to do!

Once we started to talk I found out that I was the only person who didn't hand over their car keys or mobile phone or books. Except for A who kept a notebook to keep notes each day, once you speak or write stuff down you organise your thoughts so much better, i feel i learned a lot more about brain washing than I did about meditation. I was warned that when you leave you feel like you are the only calm person while everybody else is in chaos, its very strange to go home. I said I live with very chilled out people and wouldn't find this, When I drove out of the carpark I made sure I had my window down and the stero up loud - it was a bit odd not having heard much for ten days but I wanted to send a message to the brain washed! i went to see some friends when I got back home, they reckoned they singled me out for not giving my car keys in thats why I got my own room - it wasn't until day 4 that I realised other people were sharing rooms. Also there were no locks on the doors so they could go through your stuff, I had thought this but the brain washed people didn't seem like they had ill intentions, Goenka does tell you how to answer all your questions, he's only teaching morality, purity and generosity (especially in your donations) so nobody can have any complaints about that (cept me as I oppose purity and have my own morality) . however on about day 4 i found my door wasn't shut properly, I dont know that i did shut it properly but it seemed unlikely i wouldn't. nothing ever appeared to be moved, did find the zipped poket of bag unzipped but again can't say with certainty I did it up. One other thing, you know those barn doors which can be shut with a baracade of wood going across the door on two clips, the two clips were outside the door i could have been locked in!

When Goenka told us we were there on the charity of old students who wished us to experience what they had and we should give accordingly, a little from those who can't afford it is as much as a great deal from those who can afford it. Or even better give a donation of service, this will enhance your dhama, you can volunteer to be a server for a ten day course, if you are a server you can talk and you only attend the 3 SITTINGS OF STRONG DETERMINATION each day asat other times your in the kitchen or doing other work. Interestingly i notced on the board that if i wanted too I could stay on straight away, just ask the manager, otherwise I could do a work placement in september or december. I liked to point that notice out after telling people my brain washing theories.

[Anonymous]

You must have a strong will....that you did not succumb to the mind bending techniques is remarkable. Your roots are strong..

[Anonymous]

christ and cult
this is a true story about one of my friend in kerala india.he was a software designer in uae.some of his friend took him to a 7 day retriet centre organised by some craizy priest.
they had been feeding him christ is the only way etc.after he finished the seven day brain wash he quit his well paid job and started preaching
all over the village.he leaves house in the morning and come back in the afternoon.later on he his children and wife become hungry.when some body ask him to get a job he will say kingdom of god belongs to poor etc.

later on he decided to work as a painter less than a doller a day in a village.after about 5 years we managed to take him to a phychiatrist and he priscribed him paxil 20 mg.whithin two weeks we found the result in him .slowly he started thinking by himself and started going to temple.he said i was mad no body understood me this is why i my anger went against my religion and people.now i can manage the anger by self praise the paxil.now he has his new cammandment
that is tho shall not convert.

[Anonymous]

I have been doing the meditation called zazen for 5 and a half years, and the beneficial sides of it by far exceed the negative sides of it.

There is an interesting article about the dangers of exess of zen meditation at:
http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/essays/mzs/sesshin.html

[Douglas (68.162.37.93)]

Roy Masters has a group the "Foundation of Human Understanding". He's an ex hypnotist who discovered that people are easy to hypnotise because they are already in a hypnotic state. He teaches people a meditation exercise that if done properly teaches people how to break out of their hypnotic state.

[Sharon (142.177.75.31)]

If you want to go some place where your mind is open go to God, you do not need to talk, for he does not require this. You only have to place yourself with in his realm and be free of this world. It can lead to great insights and much relaxation. you are also safe there. It does not cost alot of money, you can do it anywhere, and no one will lead you astray. Just relax as ussual and tell God you want to relax within his light. Then do so.

[Anonymous (141.157.13.94)]

I agree with those who've stressed that it might depend on what kind of meditation you do.

Some techniques involve a lot of concentration, or constriction and narrowing of the mind, suppressing of thoughts/feelings. Others assert a lot of visualization, or are very long periods without sensual stimulation or movement, etc. They produce various states of mind, some of which are not necessarily beneficial.

On the other hand, short periods of a technique of imagery or concentration and stillness, can be good.

But I find mindfulness to be a very simple idea, and also contemplative prayer. The point is, pray or do you normal activities, whatever, but really be aware, without stressing or forcing concentration, just gently be aware when your mind wanders (it will) and gently bring your mind back to the topic or what you were doing, and do this, and you become more mindful and can observe what you experience is like, without feeding all the reactions and trains of thought.

[Douglas (141.153.158.181)]

Anon 141
I find that so true

[Interested (152.163.101.12)]

When we pay attention and cultivate awareness of what we are experiencing: our sensations, feelings, perceptions; the images, voices, thoughts, narratives that constitute our "mind"-
when we engage in this practice of course it can lead to a certain kind of danger.

The danger is that we may apprehend and comprehend our existential situation: that we live in a constantly changing, impermanent and complex reality; and that we and all those we love, as well as those we will never know, will experience various kinds of mundane and profound suffering and shall die.

This is not easy to face but face it we must whether we meditate of not. Even if one believes in a soul which continues after the bodies death this still does not negate the moment to moment complexity of our lives and the suffering and loss which are part of it.

That can be the difficult aspect of meditation. Yet, developing concentration and mindfulness can also lead to learning to be at ease with whatever it is we are facing. Indeed to face the difficulties as well as the joys of our lives with kindness, equanimity, courage, skill and wisdom.

The development of such insight and compassion is not dangerous. But rather the path which heals our existential dilemma.

Fullyinterested@aol.com

[Douglas (68.162.32.180)]

We can also be aware of yourself as seperate from the thoughts you call your "mind" and be aware of how we are distracted by those thoughts from the reality of where we eminate from, the "light" that comes from beyond time and beyond matter yet defines all things. We can change our context from our thoughts which do not come from the light to the light but the danger is if you meditate without a pure intent. You will see your self centered thoughts and it will ruin your beautiful wickedness but if your intent is wrong you may not be able to continue on in your old ego centered life but still unable to give yourself to the light because you have self glorifying motivation, no light in you, no capacity to recieve, no love to give.
The light can destroy you if you are unable to reflect it or if you try to absorb it into your darkness.

[cultboy (cultboy)]

Here are some interesting articles on this topic:


http://www.events.dhamma.org/interviews/coverage.htm

[redpurusha (redpurusha)]

I just got reading the posts by anonymous about TM and Keith's meditation retreat story. The first story disapointing to read as TM has been recognized by many meditation adepts as one of the most negative and harmful practices to come along. It's effect is allowing negative spirits to influence the mind and worse (by accounts of practioners). It is sad to point out that this meditation practice recieved significant public exposure for some time, possibly more so than any other meditation method.

The second story by Keith, this one had me chuckling throughout. This guy has a good sense of humor and it was fun to read. As unfortunate as this experience was, this was only one experience of one meditation retreat, among thousands, so we can only draw the conclusion (or point to one) about this particular meditation practice, teacher or retreat. It's a fallacy to follow the logic, ie. "one woman is a horrible driver, two women are horrible drivers, therefore all women are horrible drivers" because I have a sister who is a pretty good driver.

While there are numerous meditation teachers, retreats, methods, not all of them are beneficial, and if not practiced right, could have harmful effects, even a type of brainwashing. However, having said that, one can make the argument that almost everyone is hypnotized by the very environment they live in, ie, "I am black, white, chinese, I am a mortal body," etc. when in fact, you are a powerful spiritual being who is one with the omniscient God but has become mis-identified with his environment.

So, by meditation, by stilling the mind and subduing the senses, one is able to finally 'wake up' from this false identification and know himself as he really is -a spiritual son or daughter of God.

[overseas (overseas)]

I read an interesting book by a former Yoga practitioner which is a doctor and the guy analysed the effects of meditation and breathing exercises. Effects of those practices are similar to many drugs effects cause exercises cut the oxygen flow to brain and induce a passive state in which the mind is susceptible to be controlled by other entities (spirits). This is why yoga practitioners have extase and visions.
Stay away from yoga. God bless.

[redpurusha (redpurusha)]

From my experience with yoga and breathing excercizes, the effects are a subtle yet powerful increase in awareness, resulting from the blood being recharged with extra oxygen from extended and correct practice. I cannot say I have had visions during the practice of yoga meditation though, only an increase in full color dreams (which I actually never previously had before). People need to decide what is best for themselves.

[kingdavid (kingdavid)]

Meditate on God's love. Meditate on Jesus.

JJJJJJJJJJJEEEEEEEEEEEEEE (inhale)
SSSSSSSSUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSS (exhale)

Repeat...

[munchkin (munchkin)]

errm , why do you , Keith assume that they were "brainwashing" you? Vipassana is a meditation that buddhist monks have been doing for a very long time, and the reference to Dhama, is a large part of the Buddhist religion.
Like extensive prayer, extensive meditation can open up your spirit to attack from negative forces, <u>if</u> one doesn't learn to protect from the negative forces. It is also quite possible to meditate using other religions templates, and still be christian. frankly ascribeing Buddhism(yes Vipsanna is a base of Buddhism, ) as a cult is alittle illogical.

love becca http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[inkorrekt (inkorrekt)]

Meditation has been studied at the Stanford university. I was also asked to study the same. In those days, I found that the claims were made using statistics. I was not convinced then. I am not convinced today either. Reason: You can prove anything with statistics. This is what they did. Meditation involves an object. The subjects are taught to empty their minds. You cannot do this at all. Your mind does not erase its memory. You cannot bring your brain to Zero level of function. This only happens when we aree clinically DEAD. When you repeat that Mantra "OM", OM" million times, you are actually invoking a demon spirit to come and possess your mind. Whatever that follows is the result of that specific Hindu Demon you are invoking. The demons cause severe Psychological problems. Many teachers have become suicidal. This is never reported. In the Garden of Eden, the serpent challenged EVE. Who told you not to eat the fruit? Eve said GOD. The serpent told her that if she ate, She could be like Gods. This is what Hinduism and the meditation will lead you into.

The serpent Deceived Adam and Eve. Today, the TM teachers are deceiving the students of Yoga.

[inkorrekt (inkorrekt)]

Meditation has been studied at the Stanford university. I was also asked to study the same. Just before I began the study, I was asked to meditate. I objected to this as my results would not be objective. I was offered money etc. I declined. In those days, I found that the claims were made using statistics. I was not convinced then. I am not convinced today either. Reason: You can prove anything with statistics. This is what they did. They did not want me to do an OBJECTIVE study. They wanted me to say what they wanted to hear. This is not research at all. Meditation involves an object. The subjects are taught to empty their minds. You cannot do this at all. Your mind does not erase its memory. You cannot bring your brain to Zero level of function. This only happens when we aree clinically DEAD. When you repeat that Mantra "OM", OM" million times, you are actually invoking a demon spirit to come and possess your mind. Whatever that follows is the result of that specific Hindu Demon you are invoking. The demons cause severe Psychological problems. Many teachers have become suicidal. This is never reported. In the Garden of Eden, the serpent challenged EVE. Who told you not to eat the fruit? Eve said GOD. The serpent told her that if she ate, She could be like Gods. This is what Hinduism and the meditation will lead you into.

The serpent Deceived Adam and Eve. Today, the TM teachers are deceiving the students of Yoga.

[munchkin (munchkin)]

meditiation is not emptying the mind as it is understood, here. you can;t erase you thoughts or memories, but you can quiet them, learn to calm them, i would however recomend that this is learnt with a teachers, as some people who don't understand can get into trouble and create upset in themselves.

imagine say when you are in prayer, there is nothing in you r mind but god? correct?, in meditation the aim is for there to be nothing in the consious mind, but the focus point, more advanced practishioners can do it without a object. I can for example.

Yoga, meditatiocion, are not cults, they are good spiritual process yoga is good for you body, and mind.

This knee jerk reaction to anything we don't understand is really very very silly and funny. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

beccaxx

[overseas (overseas)]

Research about Transcendental Meditation did show that same effects (relaxation, peace of mind etc.) are obtained by listening to favourite music, not rock http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif, taking a walk in the park etc.
At best, oriental meditation is a fake, at worst it involves evil spirits.

[jezzwhizz (jezzwhizz)]

It is up to each individual to come to their own conclusions about Vipassana as taught by SN Goenka.
The techniques used in the Vipassana Goenka retreats are based upon auto-suggestion/hypnosis, and that the organization is cult based.

My own opinions are reflected below.

I recently went on a Vipassana Meditation course as taught by SN Goenka.
The rules seemed really strict, 10 days Noble Silence, and a written signed commitment to stay the complete 10 days. It was not until the first evenings discourse we were then told that to leave before completing the 10 days was dangerous. (Sounded a bit extreme - dangerous?)
The Noble Silence was no problem. After being told to focus on a triangular region on the nostrils and the breath for 10 to 11 hours a day appeared a bit extreme, but that was alright too. The problem for me arose when listening to the audio recordings by SN Goenka. After the first session and a 5 minute break SN Goenka says "Start again" and then repeats himself "Start again" Or rather it was "S t a r t _ a g a i n - repetition" in a very long and deep drawn out voice. ( A bit like a reverb drawn out via the microphone, almost spooky, yet slightly amusing, and why he feel he needs to say it this I have no idea?) Then repeated words like relax the mind, easily, effortlessly, completely. This word repetition with the rhythm of the ----ly, ------ly, ----ly was very hypnotic, and is how hypnosis is induced.
Further suggestions being given about sensations in the nostrils, warm sensations, cold sensations, dry sensations, wet sensations etc. more repetition using the word sensations, again like hypnosis.
I accepted this over the following 3 days, and tried to ignore it. However on the 4th day and the initiation into Vipassana, when told to meditate on the top of the head SN Goenka then started chanting. (I had heard earlier chanting but thought nothing of it, being told he was sending blessings of goodwill etc to all) The chanting on this next occasion I believe was partially activating the crown chakra. We were then told to work down through the body being aware of sensations. Down the scalp, down the face, down the right shoulder, down the right upper arm down the forearm down the hand etc.
It felt to me like hypnotic control, as I used to practise as a hypnotist myself, and thus I felt I could no longer partake in the course.
I feel from my own past experiences in meditation that this technique was a form of kundalini activation, and an element of spiritual energy transference was being made by the audio tapes and the chanting.
I feel that Vipassana meditation is yet another great meditation technique, but as it is being taught by SN Goenka is not of a PURE form, and that the effects will only be temporary for most participants as they will not be able to hold the level of energy given to them for an indefinite period, due to the way it is taught and given, and for this reason people taking these courses will need to continually repeat the courses to re-experience the effects of the mediation.
I make this posting, not to attack Vipassana meditation as taught by SN Goenka but to share my concerns. Any feed-back would be appreciated. Is it not the way of Buddha, the middle path, and not such extremes?

With regards to the cult aspect of Vipassana as taught by SN Goenka, many of us believe that cults are there to brainwash people and to take their money too. How can Goenkas retreats be cult orientated only accepting donations, and when there is no charge if you do not complete the course? How can it be a cult when free shelter and food is on offer?
I believe that understanding a cult phenomena can be highly complex. However, having studied extensively in hypnosis, and in crowd psychology, as well as meditation for nearly two decades I truly believe that this is a cult (in my opinion). Why?
STANDARD CULT METHODS
1. Removing people from their environment with no outside contact for three days or more.
2. Sensory and sleep deprevation.
3. Induced fear, (suggesting it is dangerous to leave prior to completing the course, and only being informed of this after you start the course)
4. Humiliation. (Suggesting that only people with weak minds leave before completing the ten days.)
5. Views suggesting that all other religions and sects and are incorrect, and the only path is Vipassana with Goenka.
6. Isolation from everybody.
7. Promises of enlightenment.
8. Only assistant teachers. (No one on par to Goenka himself)
9. A subtle auto/suggestion by Goenka that he is Buddha. (Cult leaders claim to be divine or enlightened beings)

This last comment I’ve made, Goenka suggesting he is Buddha, I picked up straight away on during that very first DVD recording of his. He stated that Gautama Buddha, was a person named Gautama who became a Buddha and achieved enlightenment. The way Goenka put this across was as such that we could all become a Buddha, and although he did not actually state as such, I felt he was referring to himself as a Buddha. With his ASSISTANT teachers, never climbing any higher in rank within his organization in my opinion suggests the classic narcissistic personality disorder of a cult leader.

[redpurusha (redpurusha)]

While I don't know anything about this Vipassana Goenka character nor his teachings, I know that TM can be a dagerous form of meditation and would warn anyone from practicing or trying it. So bad, in fact, as some of the posts prove here even, it has given 'meditation' a bad name. In truth, however, it is only one form and should not be used as a basis to judge meditation practice per se.

Meditation will make you lose your mind?
What ever happened to "seek and you shall find?"

(Message edited by redpurusha on November 21, 2005)

[munchkin (munchkin)]

all i will say again is that if you were choosing a church or a school, you woul d wish to see its practises first? most good places allow that freely, same for yoga, meditiation tai chi, etc. use a bit of common sense and you will find teachers who are genuine. anyone interedted in the indiana or LA areas, and i might be able to help, but only if your genuine and won't us eita as a palce to verbal or physical attack those you disagree with, as these are my friends, what i will do if interest is post some web links and you can contactt he people and go from there, they are genuine nice people who are not out for fast buck.

beccaxx

[john_parker (john_parker)]

Once when I was a small boy, I had a terrible fever.

Then as I lay there thinking I was going to die because I felt so terribly ill, I began to notice something very unusual?

Everything suddenly started speeding-up around me (and yet) I myself was slowing down proportionally?

SO,

As things continued to speed-up faster and faster (locally) around me I was going into a weird sort of time slo-mo going slower and slower?

the entire world now seemed to have gotten sucked-in and entwined into it, entwined into a sort of time-whirlwind and time was going faster and faster


AND


I then discovered or learned or was somehow triggered? Into a rather remarkable and powerful deep mediation which caused me to forget all about my pain, as I was presently in the company of Angels looking down at the Earth.

I mean, I guess they were Angels? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I had felt at the time that they were there waiting for me and that they were from the Kingdom of God (and still do) and that they were most certainly divine and holy and that I had already known all of them very well somehow?

I really was not supposed to look directly at them but?

But I could indeed see them somehow? or at least the group leader and his right hand aid without actually turning and looking at them.

I was supposed to go with them and watch and see and partake in a few things that they, or rather he (the senior in authority of the group) had mentioned I needed to learn and know about.

It is sort of a funny thing?
But I had already known this information upon arriving? Before the Captain even said it?

It was more a matter of announcement in proper etiquette formality and carefull friendly warning.

I will not bore you with the details of what occurred next (back then) or with the other subsequent times (in this posted reply to the string)

but suffice to say: http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I suppose I could return anytime I trully and earnestly desired (if I really felt the need to) but in all candor it is something not to be played or toyed around with. I feel it is Holy thing and besides it can get extremely intense (and so) I have chosen to simply let the Good Lord trigger the process within me whenever it needs be.

Additionally,
It must be some sort of master key of meditation?
Because since then, I was able to carry out other lesser and lighter forms of mediation with relative ease.

Then, much later on,
when I was in my mid-thirties I prayed to the Holy Father (by Jesus) to open my eyes a little further, mainly so I could see (better see) and understand just what I was looking at half the time?

and I guess The LORD GOD was kind enough to hear my prayer and helped me out a bit and it was like opening a large vail with many gates and other things (that I cannot adequately explain even if I tried) were exposed.

And praise be to God
for all blessing flow from the living God
And for being able to ignore or focus things in and out so that I may go about normally and have a normal walk in life. (relatively speaking) and so I rarely go there

And truthfully, nowadays, I usually only meditate if confined or bored or perhaps to occasionally check out the sky and whats going on up there in the heavens and all around my position (and then) I go back to business as usual.

You see,
Ive discovered there are unfriendly things in creation too. And if I go around pointing fingers or even so much as look at some things direct it is like tapping on a shoulder or pounding on city gates or even picking a fight and they do respond and I dont need the headaches. (lol)

Oh,http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif by the way, I almost forgot

after it was all over I was no longer sick

Cool, eh ?

Hope you enjoyed this true story.


PEACE http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[orris]

(part 2)

...doesn't this all smack of... middle school? at best? goenka's the big guy, then there are the assitant teachers, there are the center hangers-on who live there and hide from the world. they go back into the world until they can't stand it and come back for a fix of their vipassana- - and a big aspect of vipassana is supposedly breaking addiction. in my experience though, it's just created a new one. trading this addiction for that. something that owns you, even if it's meditation courses and being a recluse, still owns you. the big kicker was that rivers then decided to live, as matt would put it in one of his many unrequested rants about his deep meaningful relationship with his celebrity friend, as some of form of self-created renunciate (or one with limo car service anyway). so he moved into an apartment in... gasp.... hollywood! so, his big renunciation was to live a life a little better than mine, with limos and a major-label career. pardon my bitterness. aversion. and craving. lots of craving and aversion. and here's the thing... i think numbing your brain into submission is just a form of a cowardice. it's a way of walking the world as a recluse. you don't let things touch you. it isn't, what i understand as the true buddhist teachings, letting them touch you and finding the most non-reactive or even loving response. it is really more like gritting your teeth and letting it hurt like hell and denying your humanity. it's hard to articulate the difference, but i think many vipassana pracitioners (or those taught by s.n. goenka) view their practice as a path of detachment. i think in reality, going gently into whatever experience is there and allowing it, including self-righteous meditators in the laps of luxury. matt would take all his piety and detachment and move to sf to accidentally father a child (while seeing to it he got a mention in the weezer rolling stone cover article). rivers made a really bad record fathering unforgivable songs like "beverly hills."

and i'm still a more than slightly bitter musician living in l.a., who still meditates and even uses some aspects of the body scanning meditation, creating new things in my life because i want them and i'm here and i'm present for my life.

i went headlong into the vipassana world with the weird, sometimes scary vipassana people, and came back out. as a dear friend often reminds me "take what works and leave the rest." so from north fork, they're proclaiming how i pollute the pure this-and-that. i'm just finding the best spot on a narrow path toward the middle way. whether goenka and company would judge me or not.

as another more balanced vipassana teacher said to me about my experience with goenka vipassa... "Ah, your father's Pat Robertson's right-hand guy, so you come from dogmatic Christianity and you quickly found your way over to dogmatic Buddhism."

That pretty says it.

Be well...

[orris]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/icons/tree_m.gif

jezz, i really appreciate your post. i've been to a 10 day course and actually 2 3-day courses. i sought this out because i had had wonderful experience with theravadan-based meditation as taught in books by stephen levine (still among my favorite spiritual authors).

i actually had a problem each and every time with the recordings of goenka chanting. and coming from an evangelical background, red flags were going up everywhere with all these rules about the "dangers" of leaving and not "contaminating" their "pure" meditation practice. and some aspects of the "body scanning" meditation have been very helpful to me. and i was already practicing breath-observation mindfulness meditation (as taught by stephen levine, not goenka- - and i felt as thought i HAD to lie on the application and say i didn't... again, just... lots of warning signs).

beyond the many little dogmatic rules (while they're constantly claiming how dogma-free they are throughout the course) and other warning flags, i've also had some strange and difficult personal interaction. i became close friends (i thought) with a guy named Matt who was one of those guys who would live at the center. he eventually moved and totally dropped me as a friend, which was hurtful, but not the weirdest thing. he had introduced me to a local holistic doctor friend of his (also from vipassana) who now does 21 day detox courses. while outwardly kind, these guys always seemed to take a stance of being spiritually one-up on everyone around them. i was, in their eyes, perhaps a step-up from the common shmo because i'd done their meditation, but not quite as good or pure or spiritual. Matt would go out of his way to disclude me from activities with this "doctor" friend and because they SEEM so friendly, it's hard to realize these people are looking down their nose at you. but looking down they most certainly are.

some years after my first vipassana "course," while matt was basically hiding from the world, he hooked up with rivers cuomo while matt was living at the center for months on end. as matt would explain it, they were fast friends, and rivers was soon following matt's lead and living their too. between being picked up in his recording-studio equipped limo and driven the 4-5 hours from the north fork vipassana center to and from L.A. soon thereafter, matt would go out of his way to send me notes and leave me messages, almost exclusively about how tight he was with rivers. i have to admit, as a struggling musician, i hoped to meet him. but this was never to happen. because even though i'd been "sitting" much longer than rivers, matt made it very clear that he and rivers and the doctor were in their self-proclaimed spiritual class, and i was in another.
(continued)...

[gorobb]

have done this meditated a lot. thought. surmised. ciphered, etc. never did the sitting much longer like orris