Assembly of God penecostal

[moishem (moishem)]

is there a difference between a.g. and penecostral? i hear their names almost synonymously all the time. I actually am a non-denominational Christian and go to Calvary Chapel, but because our church is new, there aren't many my age so i am involved in an a.g. group at my college. so... are they the same?

[onlythetruth (onlythetruth)]

Hello,

Assembly of God is pentecostal. The Assemblies of God does not consider itself a denomination but a movement. All churches that carry the A/G name must abide by a series of fundamental truths one being basptism in the Holy Spirit evidence by speaking in tongues. You'll find that the emphasis from church to church differs but the belief must be there. Hope this helps

[pleasant (pleasant)]

Only the truth,

I don't know about moishem but I'm still confused. Sorry, I'm slow. Surely there are some other differences between churches that call themselves pentacostal and the Assemblies of God. Do you know what they are?

[jeff_p (jeff_p)]

Of course there are, the emphasis on tongues is not always there. It is in fundamental pentacostalism. But most newer non-denominational movements adhere to the Christian receiving the Spirit at conversion. We can and should have 'fillings' of the Spirit consistently through our Christian lives. There's no formula of what happens when God's Spirit falls on us in a 'filling' or 'baptism' Many churches are discovering that it's not always manifested in tongues. What's more important is that we ARE getting filled so we have the power to do what Christ has told us to do; proclaim the Gospel, heal the sick, etc.

(Message edited by jeff_p on March 02, 2005)

[tomh777 (tomh777)]

Greetings,

I'm curious to hear from those of you who consider yourself "baptized with the Holy Spirit", "filled with the Holy Spirit,etc," who had an infilling subsequent to salvation but who don't speak in tongues. As an A/G Christian my infilling was pretty much by the A/G textbook (speaking in tongues, etc). I know that there are some denominations that encourage a non tongue talking infilling (CMA, Free Methodist, etc.), and I'm curious to hear how that type of infilling is experienced and lived out, etc.

Thanks

[cindig (cindig)]

Everyone that is saved has been baptized with the Spirit.

[just_curious (just_curious)]

Amen, Cindig.

[tucson1960 (tucson1960)]

Actually the group that originally called themselves The Assembly of God was a Cult in the early 1970's that was headed up by a guy who named himself John Toilet (because the whole world was a **** hole). The group didn't last long and the remnants went to Israel.

(Message edited by tucson1960 on April 23, 2005)

[bear (bear)]

Hello,

I would like to comment on two posts:

to moishem:
Yes, in a small way there is a difference between Ag and a hard core pent. While the AG is a pent. church, there are also main stream pent. who are extreme in their practices and boarder on heretical teaching, e.g., "you are not saved unless you speak in toungues". The United Pentecostal Church, and Apostolic Church's fall into that catagory. I graduated from an AG institute, even though I am not AG.

To cindig:
Yes, everyone who is saved is baptized in the Holy Spirit as it pertains to being in the family of God. However, the New Test. is full of clear proof that the baptism spoken of by Jesus in Acts 1:8 is seperate from salvation. It is given, as Acts 1:8 states, to give power to christians. That power, as the rest of the verse states, is to be a witness for Jesus.

The Greek word for power is dunamis, which is more clearly defined as "ability". A careful, study of the scriptures, especially Acts, and the last few chapters of John, prove that the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:8 is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit that occurs at salvation

[turtle (turtle)]

Bear,
Do you know anything about the AFMC Association of fundamental ministers and the UCC United Christian church. If you know of these groups would you tell me something about them. thank you.
turtle.

Now to answer questions difference between Indwelling or filling and baptizism. No there really is not a difference. Except that pencostals generally believe you can't receive the baptizism without speaking in tongues. But speaking in tongues is only one of the gifts of teh Holy Spirit. Commonly what is thought and taught in some churches I have been in and actually I do agree to a point is the baptizism is receive in connection to christian service or ministry, whether laymen or ministers. But the indwelling is received by all christians. This paat year I have had a very dramatic pencostal experience dealing with two churches and How God showed me which church wasn't not serving him but the greed for money. This is a long story in itself. Nine months ago if you asked is there a definite difference in on receiving the baptizisma nd speaking in tongues I would have said yes. But Now that the situation has calmed and time elaspe a little I feel they really are the same thing. If you are yielding to God's plan in your life and desiring to do his will HOly Spirit will guide you and direct you and give you the words to say even when you feel like you have no clue what to say. what is my denominational background southern baptist and I have worship and am worshipping currently in a pencostal church. But the pencostal church I am in seems almost in the conservative churches I grew up in.

[curious1 (curious1)]

A BRIEF HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM
(The Three Waves)*

From the second century to the nineteenth century, there is no historical evidence that godly, orthodox believers spoke in tongues. We do have instances of tongues speaking in these centuries, but in every case the people speaking in tongues belonged to heretical groups. From Montanus (2nd Century) to Edward Irving (19th century), instances of "tongues" within the church were never considered to be part of genuine Christianity. Also, we should note that these "heretics" who spoke in tongues were speaking some kind of emotional, nonsense gibberish and not real languages as was the case in Acts chapter 2.



Wave #1
Old Pentecostalism or Classic Pentecostalism

In 1901 at Bethel Bible College, Topeka, Kansas, Agnes Ozman received what she called the baptism of the Spirit and spoke in "tongues." The practice then became part of the Holiness movement of the church in the United States. In 1906, tongues were spoken on Azusa Street in Los Angeles, California, and out of these two events in 1901 and 1906 grew the mainline Pentecostal denominations which are still with us today (Assemblies of God, etc.).


Wave #2
New Pentecostalism or Charismatic Renewal

This is sometimes referred to as the New Charismatic Movement. It was like the old charismatic, Pentecostal movement in that it gave special emphasis to certain gifts, most notably the gift of tongues. It was a new movement in the sense that it crossed denominational lines and barriers.

In 1960, in Van Nuys, California, the modern Charismatic movement began in an Episcopalian Church (St. Mark's, with Dennis Bennett as rector). There was an outburst of tongues speaking in this church. This event was so significant that both Time and Newsweek covered the story. After that, the movement spread like wildfire in the Episcopalian Church and then among Lutherans and Presbyterians as well.

The movement soon entered the universities. This began in New England. In October of 1962, the glossolalia phenomenon broke out at Yale University, among members of the Evangelical Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. Included in this new-Pentecostal revival were Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and even one Roman Catholic. Five were members of Phi Beta Kappa, and some were religious leaders on campus (they were soon called "GLOSSO YALIES"). Thereafter, the movement spread to Dartmouth College, Stanford University, and Princeton Theological Seminary.

Even more significant than these events is what happened in 1967. All roads lead to Rome. At the time of Spring vacation in 1967, there were in the Notre Dame area about 30 zealous Catholics who had received the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." In 1968, about 100 to 150 met for a Catholic Pentecostal conference. In 1969, there were about 450 Catholic Charismatics who met including about 25 or 30 priests. In 1970, the increase was more spectacular. Almost 1,300 attended the conference, including Catholics from Canada. In 1973, 22,000 Catholic Charismatics met together at Notre Dame, including Catholic participants from at least 10 foreign countries. In 1974, the Notre Dame conference was attended by 30,000 people. And finally, the 1975 international conference held in Rome attracted 10,000 pilgrims from 50 countries to hear Pope Paul VI express his warm appreciation for the movement. The movement was mushrooming not only in the Roman Catholic Church, but in all of the major Protestant denominations.

The Kansas City Charismatic Conference was held in the summer of 1977. All three wings of the Pentecostal movement were present: (1) Old Pentecostals (sometimes called "classical Pentecostals"); (2) Protestant Charismatics; and (3) Catholic Charismatics. This was the biggest and most inclusive gathering of "baptized in the Spirit believers" in modern history. There were nearly 50,000 participants in this 5-day conference. One speaker proudly hailed this conference as "the largest and most inclusive ecumenical assembly in the history of American Christianity." Almost half of the participants were Roman Catholics.

A newspaper article published in 1977 (AP), reported that there were 10 million charismatics in America (5 million Classical Pentecostals and 5 Million New Pentecostals). Thus, the new charismatic movement grew to 5 million in only 17 years (1960 to 1977)! Today, the movement is still very much alive and growing, although we probably will not see the same kind of mushrooming growth as we saw in the '60s and early '70s. The 1/7/83 Christianity Today reported that the Assembly of God denomination (Pentecostal) is the fastest growing American denomination. At that time there were 1.6 million Assembly of God adherents and the number was growing fast.

The New Charismatics are not separatist but rather reformist in character. They are not interested in separating from old ecclesiastical structures. Rather, they are told to stay in these churches and to renew them by their continued presence within. This is what is meant by Charismatic Renewal.



Wave #3
The Signs and Wonders Movement

The term "third wave" was first coined by C. Peter Wagner in 1983:

"I see historically that we're now in the third wave. The first wave of the moving of the Holy Spirit began at the beginning of the century with the Pentecostal movement. The second wave was the charismatic movement which began in the fifties in the major denominations. Both of those waves continue today.

"I see the third wave of the eighties as an opening of the straight-line evangelicals and other Christians to the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that the Pentecostals and charismatics have experienced, but without becoming either charismatic or Pentecostal. I think we are in a new wave of something that now has lasted almost through our whole century" (Peter Wagner, "The Third Wave?" Pastoral Renewal, July-August 1983, pp. 1-5).

This movement is also called the Signs and Wonders Movement and the Vineyard Movement. It has been a rapidly growing movement, drawing adherents from both charismatic and non-charismatic churches. The movement stresses "power evangelism" whereby the gospel is explained and demonstrated by way of supernatural signs and wonders.

There are three key leaders of this movement: (1) John Wimber, probably the central figure of the movement. He was the founder of the Vineyard church movement upon coming out of Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel movement, and he taught with C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary. The course was entitled "Signs, Wonders and Church Growth." (2) C. Peter Wagner, professor at Fuller Seminary School of World Missions, where he co-taught with John Wimber. (3) Paul Cain, an influential "modern day prophet," a disciple of William Branham whom Cain called "the greatest faith healer of our time" and the "greatest prophet of all time." Branham was a heretical false prophet who held erroneous view on the Godhead and on the Trinity.

In the Signs and Wonders movement, tongues speaking can be found, but the gift of tongues is not stressed as much as it is in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. The Signs and Wonders movement (Vineyard movement) does stress the gift of prophecy (insisting on the importance of modern day prophets) and the gift of healing.




This report has been adapted from the Appendix of a paper ("The Charismatic Movement: 35 Doctrinal Issues") by Pastor George Zeller, The Middletown Bible Church, 349 East Street, Middletown, CT 06457 [(860) 346-0907].

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/abrief.htm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Biblical Discernment Ministries - 12/97

[turtle (turtle)]

Curious 1,
I be honest I would not of believed in the gifts of tongues except for the experience I had and healing that took place in my physical body. But I will share this with you because I think I have shared my story somewhere else on one of the threads in doctrine and beliefs and proofs. God had a purpose with the tongues that was heard adn spoken and were translated. If you wish me to share my story here I will but maybe I will find where i post it on the other thread and just past it here.

[curious1 (curious1)]

Hello Turtle,
you had a tongue experience? I'd like to ask you a few questions based on Scriptural authority if i may.
First, who did the tongue speaking?
Second, what was the language?
Third, who was the interpreter?
Fourth, what was the translated message?
Fifth, Who was the message for and
Sixth, how did it apply to you?

[turtle (turtle)]

First of all I will not necessarily answer your question in order. Second I am not an authority on languages so i can not tell you what language was spoken. But i will share what i do know.
I had been in chronic pain for many years. My husband and i visited a church that was starting up and meet a pastor that was in another church. We visted his church because is was pencostal and the preacher that was opening this church was also pencostal. That sunday I was a skeptic when I went in and when I went out tell I realized what God did for me. The minister knew I was in pain. And at the close of the service he came back and prayed for me. I had ask God to show me if this pencostal church was of him. My husband had said if they spoke in tongues, jump pews or anything weird happened he was leaving. The minister prayed for me and spoke in tongues. I looked at my husband he is still beside me and very calm. Someone that we were acquaint with came and asked how we liked the service. My husband said it was nice and he might be back. Now this is a man if he says anything strange happen he is waling out the door. And trust me my husband is scared of his own shadow at night. WE get out to the truck and he asked me what did I think of the service and i said what did you think of speaking in tongues. He said I heard no tongues. i said the pastor spoke in tongues when he prayed for me. No all I heard was bless you my sister. I did not even hear that all i heard was unknown language. I get home and realize I am no longer hurting. I didn't stumble when I walked. I put my cane up and started walking without it.
That evening we decided to go back but because we were mixed up on the time we came in at the end of service. The pastor is again speaking in tongues what was interpeted as Just praising God and blessed the congregation. He walked up and down the isle doing this and we had slipped into the very back seat. Our aquaintance came up asked where is your cane I told he i have no more pain. I asked her to tell my husband that the minister had been speaking in tongues. My husband said no he hadn't. She said he was right in front of you speaking didn't you hear him. He said all I heard was bless the congregation and the minister praising God.

Now there was purpose for this. The man that was starting the church we went back to his church when he started regular services. Unfortunately he was not a man of God all he was after was money and there was no money to get really because it was poor people tha came to his church. So he dedicided to work them hard selling hotdogs and concerts and such. I realize very quickly what he was but had a hard time leaving the church because my husband 's family was attending. This minister was good with words and a fake. He prophecied things that did not come true. He was a man that liked a show. He also did not preach sound doctrine. So my husband and I left and six weeks later he lost the rest of his congregation, because of lies he told. I send to types of pencostal churches one where God definitely was and one that wasn't.

I went back to were I was healed and were the tongues happened. Reason being I wanted evidence it was not in my head. What I found was a church that loved to singing praises to God. Loved to read the word and explain it. Actually for a pencostal church it is quite orderly. People share what God is doing in their lives. I also discovered it was very sound in doctrine like the church I grew up in. I came from a southern baptist background conservative. I dont' think I have ever heard so much scripture read or explained in my life in any church. But what impressed me most as far as regular tongues and interpetation it is not every sunday event. It is not a show. God is glorified here. They take I Corinthians 14 very seriously.

if the God had given the interpetation to anyone else in the church and given to me I would not have believed it. Or just passed it off. But I think the reason for it was to get me out of the church that was false. I been in different churches and i do not like the arguing or hurt church can do to other people. I been in church that are very hurtful. If i had walked out of that church that was fake without another church were I had seen God working I might never had step back into a church again. I don't think I would of lost my faith but I would have missed out on fellowship with other believers that I now have.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

I come from a hindu background and I don't belong to any denomination, if it would help anyone:
the born-again experience is totally different from the bible experience of the Holy Spirit baptism. There isn't even one place in the bible where it says you receive the precious Holy SPirit when you believe. If you can show me one verse I will agree.

Sidharth

[turtle (turtle)]

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(Ephesians 1:13-14)

Does this passage help belonging2Jesus. And here is one more passage.

Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

(Message edited by turtle on August 17, 2005)

[turtle (turtle)]

A one more verses.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:16)

[turtle (turtle)]

Sidharth,
Realize even when the Holy Spirit comes and lives with you. Jesus is in you through the Holy Spirit.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Read the verse before and after this verse you will understand and if you have questions post them. Realize God doesnt' possess you but he lives in you not to control but to guide you and comfort you til you come to be with him in heaven. HE doesn't conrroll you but still allows you choice to obey him and to believe in him. He enables us to live the life we should for God.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear seriousmatters,

Thank you for responding. The bible is clear about the born-again experience and the Holy Spirit baptism. One doesnot receive the Holy Spirit when he or she believes. The scriptures you used have nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit as such.

Firstly, the born-again experience is when you follow the basic principles mentioned in Romans 10:7, where you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead. The moment you believe this, you are born of the Spirit or said to have the Spirit of Christ. This means, the Holy Spirit takes of the blood of Jesus and cleanses you from all sin. In the epistle of Peter, he mentions this truth in the first few verses, where he says the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. He is the agent that uses the blood of Jesus on our souls.

Jesus is the second Person of the trinity, and His divinity is in His blood. If you ask a good doctor he will tell you that the father furnishes the blood of a child and not the mother. And so Jesus did not have Mary's blood, but had divine, sinless blood. Jesus received the Holy Spirit only at the age of 30. As the Son of God, He didn't need the Holy Spirit, but as a Son of Man, He showed us that without the Holy Spirit we couldn't overcome the various temptations and the trials that we face daily.

In the greek language, in many places the 'the' prefix is not found along with the Holy Spirit. In English language since the phrase would look incomplete, tranlators have added the 'the' in places where the 'the' prefix is not there as well. If you closely study these scriptures and compare them with the others which have the 'the' prefix, you will find that they are speaking of the Holy Spirit in an impersonal manner. One such place where the 'the' prefix is not there is the scripture you quoted in John 20. The places where the 'the' prefix is absent, the Holy Spirit is often meant to be impersonal and as a power. Jesus breathed on the disciples and asked to receive the Holy Spirit, but later before Jesus ascended, He commanded them to tarry in Jerusalem until they be endued with power from on high: the promised Holy Spirit would be poured out on each of them. What happened in John 20 was that, they were born of the Spirit, that is they were the work of the Spirit. But the Holy Spirit came to dwell in their hearts only on the Day of Pentacost.

In Act 8: 12-18 you again find the Samarians believed and were baptized and later when Peter and John came, they placed their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. And in bracket it is given: For the Holy Spirit was not yet given to any of them. In ACt 10:44-48, you find that Cornelius and his household believed as Peter preached to them and even while he was preaching they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. The only criteria for receiving the Holy Spirit is being washed of the blood of Jesus. In case of the Ephesians, Paul first thought these were the disciples of Jesus and found out they were not when he asked them "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?". But they replied and said they hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul immediately asks them, with what baptism they were baptized. For if they were baptized in the christian baptism, which is in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, they would have heard about the Holy Spirit being mentioned. But they were just baptized in John's baptism, which was not administered in any name. Then Paul preaches to them, they believe are baptized in water and then Paul places his hand on them and they receive the Holy Spirit.

Again, they didnot receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. Most people use Ephesians 1:13 to say they are sealed with the Holy Spirit when the believe. But as you study what happened in Ephesus, you find they didnot receive the Holy Spirit when they believed. Moreover, the word used in Eph1:13 is "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER you believed."

I would ask you to study on the places where the 'the' prefix is not used with the Holy Spirit, it could avoid a lot of confusion. Again, the 'the' prefix is not used in Matthew 1, where it says Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Here again the Holy Spirit is impersonal, not mentioned as a Person. Jesus mentioned the Holy Spirit as a Person many times in the gospel on John.

I hope I could clearly explain to you what it means to be born of the Spirit and to be baptized in the Holy Spirit as the early disciples were on the day of Pentacost.
I exhort you receive the Holy Spirit according to Act2:4. God bless.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

If you study the foundational doctrines in Hebrew 6, you will find it mentions, repentance, faith, 'baptisms', laying on of hands, ressurection from the dead, and judgment.
Paul says these are the elementary, and foundations. In 1 Corinthians 10, you find Paul again mentions two baptisms, the baptism in the sae symbolising the baptism in water, and the baptism in the cloud, symbolising the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They are different.

Only a person born-again or born of the Spirit can be baptized in water, which is administered in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as commanded in Matthew 28:20.

Those who want a shallow knowledge of God can stay there and lose the blessings that God has for them. The christian life of power starts only when you receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
The true gifts operate only after one is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I am not for pentacostals or charismatics, I believe the bible and the bible teaches this marvelous experience. I have experienced it and know it is real.

Many blasphemous teachings have gone forth, teaching the Holy Spirit baptism is a doctrine of the devil and tongues is not of God. I don't want anything to do with such people, they have sealed their destination as they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Just because Pentacostals are legalistic in their views of holiness and Charismatics are steeped in modernism, doesn't mean you have to disregard this bible experience.

Many people who think they are preaching the gospel and for God are actually preaching against Him. The Holy Spirit baptism is God's greatest fire for man-kind in this final hour. The church went into absolute darkness when they neglected this, but with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel and James the power from on high has been restored.

I stand for God's Word not man's theories.

Because of His love,
Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Another wrong teaching is 'speaking in tongues' at will. This is a deceptive teaching, taught by some pentacostal preachers. The bible clearly says that the Holy Spirit gave the utterance. He uses your vocal chords and speaks through symbolising He has come. No one receives the Holy Spirit without Him speaking through them. This is different from the gift of tongues. Compare Act2, Act8, Act9, Act 10 and Act 19 where the Holy Spirit baptism is spoken of and 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 and you will find that the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit is different from the gift of tongues.

This is not a pentacostal doctrine, this is a bible teaching. I told you this so that you wont push off this evidence as of the devil, and there by blasphemy the Holy Spirit. You don't have to worry about the evidence as long as you are ready to receive the Holy Spirit, it's like worrying about getting wet, when baptized in water.

More over the Holy Spirit baptism symbolizes COMPLETE control. The tongue being the most unruly member of the body, and since it directs ones life. The Holy Spirit takes over the tongues and speaks through us symboizing complete control. I see many here, have a shallow knowledge of God and His Word. I am given a free will to yield to the Holy Spirit or not.

People think everything is over after they receive the Holy Spirit baptism(This is a pit many pentacostals fall into). Yet it is just the beginning and one must continue to be yielded to the Holy Spirit, so that he can be used by the Holy Spirit.

God, the Holy Spirit never barges into anyones life. Only as you yield to Him, does He come in and baptize you.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

NO ONE who hasn't gone through the ACTS experience can access the Epistles. The Epistles were written to believers who were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Sidharth

[bear (bear)]

There is a difference between the gift of toungues, which is followed by interpretation, and a personal worship prayer language.

Study 1 Cor. 12-14, especially 14, and you will see Paul describing the difference.

The Corinthians were doing things out of order, like some Pent. church's today, and he was writting the letter to correct them.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Yes, that's true bear. Paul wasn't forbidding speaking in tongues as many teach today, but he was speaking about order to be maintained in church.

Infact, he ends the chapter by saying donot forbid speaking tongues. The gift of tongues are to edify the church and not the believer himself, as all gifts are to profit withal, but the personal prayer language, which I would like to call the 'prayer tongue', edifies the person who speaks alone.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear friends,

I come from a hindu background and my encounter with Jesus transformed my life.
Every denominations has it's own faults. The Pentacostal movement started in 1901, turning the world upside down, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which was prophesied by Joel the prophet in Joel 2. The movement was started by people who weren't very educated.Their view of holiness was mostly legalistic. They thought holiness was the way they dressed, and the way they walked. But the movement brought back the life-changing experience of the Holy Spirit baptism back to the church, marking the latter rain prophesied by the prophet Joel and later in the new testament by James. It wasn't a fashionable thing to belong to Pentacost. They were often scorned at and persecuted.

Later in 1960s came the Charismatic movement. It became a fashion to be called a Charismatic, that even secular people started using the term. Charismatics brought in a lot of false doctrines with it, one of them being 'once saved always saved doctrine'. People lost the value of true holiness. They lost the truth about being separated from sin and the world. But the bible is crystal clear that without holiness no man will see the Lord. That's strong, but yet it is true.

People say that Charismatic movement is the next great wave after Pentacost, but that isn't true. I believe Charismatic movement is the dirt in between two great waves. No, don't get me wrong, I am addressing to the unholy activities that they introduced and manifestations they attribute to the Holy Spirit, which mostly has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

The only condition to be saved is, to be born-again and that means to be cleansed of ones sin through the blood of Jesus. The bible doesnot teach that you have to baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. Yet, the bible teaches that every born-again soul must be filled with the Holy Spirit to make the rapture.

There is much contention and blasphemous teachings when it comes to the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism.
The bible is crystal clear about the requirements of salvation: confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Does this mean, that the dumb cannot be saved? Does this mean that the deaf cannot be saved? Something to think about.
The initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. I say this so that no one will push off this evidence to be of the devil and there by blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Whoever is baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues, just like whoever is willing to be baptized will get wet. It's that simple. Christians fight over this bible teaching because they lack the knowledge of scriptures. They confuse the gift of tongues to the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism.

If you study the 5 experiences in the book of Acts: Act2, Act8, Act9, Act10 and Act 19, closely with 1 Corinthians 14 you will understand the difference between the gift of tongues and the initial evidence.

For those who want this biblical experience and for those who crave for more of God can mail me. I am not here to debate on the Word of God. The Word of God is not debatable.

The bible makes things so simple and clear, it's man who complicates things.

God bless.

Sidharth

[turtle (turtle)]

Something caught my attention belonging to Jesus what makes you righteous by God's standards not man's? I am asking out of the comment we must be holy that is what God requires. It not that I dont' agree with you on that point what I am curious about is your definition of holiness.

[godchild (godchild)]

When people say Christ didn't receive the Holy Spirit until he was 30 are teaching dynamic Monarchianism. The son of God became man, not the opposite. Jesus was with God before the world began. He is coequal and coeternal as is the Holy Spirit. Christ was born of a virgin and was not 'created' as we are.
Those who were speaking in tongues at Pentacost were the 12 apostles. The tongues spoken here were Greek for a known language. The people who had come from other nations heard 'in their own language'. They knew the apostles were Galileans.
When Jesus was alive he said he would send a comforter for them (after his death). When Christ breathed the Holy Spirit onto the apostles he did it as a resurrected person, changed and glorified.
Also, the Word says 'they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. It does not say 'the Holy Spirit spoke through them,' but that the Spirit gave them the ability to speak in foreign tongues.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Holiness is separation from sin and the world and being attatched to the Lord. Consecration is holiness not isolation.

And God child, you misinterpret the scriptures. Not only the 12 spoke : all assembled spoke. In the house hold of Cornellius, it wasn't the apostles who spoke in tongues but the household. In Ephesus, it wasn't Paul who spoke in tongues but the 12 men who received the Holy Spirit.

If you would read Isaiah 28:11, God Himself says, "With stammering lips and other tongues shall I speak to this nation.". God, the Holy Spirit can speak using the vocal chords of human beings. Man doesnot operate God, God operates man. It's seducing doctrine of speaking in tongues at will. As I yielded my tongue in praise the Holy Spirit spoke through symbolising His abode in me.

I have clearly spoken about the difference between the John 20 "receive ye My Spirit" and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.


Jesus is the second Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit is the third Person. They are differen Person's , yet one. They have different functions. The Holy Spirit didn't come to die for our sins. JEsus did. The Holy Spirit is here to prepare us to meet Jesus in the air, when He makes His second appearance.

I have given you thus saith the Lord. Those who are yielded to the Lord will agree with me.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear serious matter,
Thankyou for your mail. But I need to tell you, that I haven't got any idea of myself of the Word. The interpretations come through the Holy Spirit. As I came from a hindu background, the Lord graced me much to teach His Word. I don't say to have comprehended it all, but what He has taught me, I have put forth. No offense, I stand for what I have said in the full light and Presence of the Lord. If I say anything not in accordance to what the Lord has taught me, I be accursed! The Lord told me, I was to atke every manifestation: whether by dream, prophecy, teaching, visions etc to the Word of God. The Word of God is your safety.

No one will make the rapture without the oil of the Holy Spirit. Don't get me wrong, one can go to heaven if he or she is born-again. But the purpose of the Holy SPirit baptism is to prepare the Bride. To remove the wrinkles with the fire of the Holy Spirit.To go the way of the rapture, it takes the Holy Spirit baptism. It's all scriptural.
Again, I stand on God's truth and say 'No one recieves the Holy Spirit when they believe'. That is 'thus saith the Lord'. I don't debate the Word.

Sidharth

[turtle (turtle)]

belonging to Jesus what about cornelius in acts and his family they were gentiles that received the Holy Spirit immediately by signs of speaking in tongues.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

No one can receive the Holy SPirit without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you study Act 2, Act8, and Act19 along with this, you will realize that the Cornellius and his household believed Paul, even while he was preaching Jesus. Again I say the only criteria for receiving the Holy Spirit, is a born-again experience, that is to be born of the Spirit.

Serious matter, the 'the' prefix is used in Act13:2, where the Holy Spirit spoke and said 'Separate to Me Paul and Barnabbas...".
To born of this Spirit means to have an experience in accordance to 2 Cor5:17. Your nature has been changed from a sinful nature and have been made a partaker of the divine nature.

No one righteous in the eyes of God. But when a person receives Jesus, he or she is given the righteousness of God, in Whom there is no darkness. You are made righteous through the finished work on the cross.(For those who keep telling those born-again, that they are sinful.)
I am no longer a sinner, I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

Sidharth

[turtle (turtle)]

Again, I stand on God's truth and say 'No one recieves the Holy Spirit when they believe'. That is 'thus saith the Lord'. I don't debate the Word. by belongtoJesus

<font color="ff0000">Okay if you believe this statement you need to fix the one above.

</font><font color="0000ff">"Again I say the only criteria for receiving the Holy Spirit, is a born-again experience, that is to be born of the Spirit.</font>

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Thank you again serious matter for replying.

Please read clearly, what I am going to write. I am taking time to write this, because you honor the Word of God:

Again I want to describe the born-again experience. What happens there? The Holy Spirit, the Agent Who uses the blood of Jesus, takes the blood of Jesus and washes away all our sins. Our spirit man is made absolutely new, clean and holy. We are the work of the Spirit. This is what it means to be born-new.

Jesus while He was with the disciples before His crucifixion, told the disciples,
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"(John 14:15)
This is the promise of the Father: another Comforter.
Now He goes on to say, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you." (John14:16)
When Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be IN them, He was addressing to the Day of Pentacost. How do we know for sure? Because after His resurrection and before His ascension, when He was with the disciples for 40 days, He said "wait for the <u>promise of the Father</u>, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."(Act1:4,5)

Do you know that the promise of the Father is the Holy Spirit? (John14:15)

If they had already received the promise of the Father, then why wait for the promise?

Again Jesus said in John 16:7,"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

The coming of the Holy Spirit would take Jesus' ascension and sitting at the right hand of the Father.
Only when Jesus ascended to heaven, did He receive the promise of the Father:
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."(Act2:33)

Again you find this spoken by Paul in Ephesians 4:8, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
What does this verse mean? The Holy Spirit is THE gift Jesus received from the Father, after releasing the captives through His resurrection and from the gift of the Holy Spirit, comes the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are mentioned in 1 Corinthians12. When you are born-again you become a witness to the Lord Jesus' resurrection, while when you receive the Holy Spirit, you become a witness to His ascension.

Going back to John 14:17, the Holy Spirit was WITH the disciples till the Day of Pentacost. But He came to dwell IN them only on the Day of Pentacost.

Jesus seeing the disciples after resurrection said, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit". But if you consider all what I said, the promised Holy Spirit was not given until the day of Pentacost. Jesus Himself asked them to wait in JErusalem to receive the promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit.

On a closer study, we find Jesus wasn't contradicting Himself, what happened in John 20, was that the disciples became a work of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit can lead a person who hasn't been baptized in the Holy Spirit, since He is with that person. But it is a different dimension when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you. You yourself said you agreed with that.

Again in Ephesians 1:13 and 14, it says, " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

How do I know they didn't receive the Holy Spirit when they believed and only AFTER they believed? I go back to Acts 19, where we see Paul ministering to the same people. They believed, they were baptized, and later when he laid hands on them, they received the Holy Spirit.

The early church didn't have a problem with receiving the Holy Spirit, as people have today. They didn't fight over this experience, but they gladly received the promise of the Father.
Today people find it so hard when I say, the episltes were written to the Spirit-filled believers.

No one needs to wait any longer for the Holy Spirit. The tarrying stopped on the Day of Pentacost. We find no one after that waited for the Holy Spirit. The apostles laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit and they did immediately. I didn't wait for years and years to receive the Holy SPirit, as some teach today. I found this experience in the bible, I asked I received. I thought I wasn't worthy to receive Him, but anyone who is washed in the blood of Jesus can receive the Holy Spirit. He(The Holy Spirit) is a free gift Jesus received for us when He ascended to heaven.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.(Act2:38,39)

I will speak on the other topics later.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Consequent to receiving the Holy Spirit, one receivings a continous infilling in His walk. God's purpose is not just that I receive the Holy Spirit, but to yield to Him and blend perfectly with Him. The Lord told me that this blend of the human spirit and the Holy Spirit was a necessary for the Bride of Christ.

As we study the bible from Genesis to Revelation, we find in the Old Testament, the types and shadows of the Holy Spirit and what His function would be in the Grace Dispensation.

The Word of God has amazed me in it's depth, simplicity and clarity. I have gone through the bible cover to cover so many many times, yet when the Lord begins to open my eyes through the Holy Spirit to certain truths I am dumbfounded!
I love His Word! I can live without food and material goods, but not the Word. Oh no! that would be terrible! I'd lose my light to walk in this world of darkness. Yet, there will come a time when there will be a famine. Not a famine for food, but a famine for Word of God. It's going to be a terrible time! This I believe will be during the Great Tribulation Period, after the Bride meets the Bridegroom in mid-air. Amos 8:11 speaks about this time.

The Lord said He was coming after a church without any wrinkle. Have you tried ironing your clothes with a cold iron? Will it work? But you put some coal into that iron. The wrinkles just disappear. Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Ghost and fire. On the day of Pentacost , it was tongues of fire. There's fire for every body, there's fire for everybody! But if you reject the tongue of fire, you reject God's greatest fire for man-kind in this final hour of the Gentile Dispensation. Those who are alive at the coming of the Lord, will need the Holy Ghost within them, for the body will be changed from inside to outside. We will be given a glorified body, not mortal.

The oil in the Scripture represents the Holy Spirit. If you would read Matthew 25, you find 10 virgins. All were virgins, symbolizing separation from the world, but all did not have the oil. Only those who had the oil were caught up to be with the Lord.

It's a different thing when it comes to those dead. Their souls are already with the Lord. The Lord will bring those who were were with Him. The resurrection of their bodies is all that's left.
Again, I say anyone born-again will enter heaven, for the thief on the left side of Jesus, was neither baptized in water, neither in the Holy Spirit.

On studying Genesis 25, you will see the type of the rapture. Abraham symbolizes God the Father, who sent his servant(symbolizing the Holy Spirit), to bring a bride(symbolizing the Church) for his son Isaac(symbolizing Jesus).

I can give you scriptures, which will make this crystal clear to you, but right now I am in a hurry.

When we come to the Holy Spirit, we have to bury our own opinions and what we have learned. He has much to say.

Because of His unfailing grace,

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

I need to add, you and I cannot take out the wrinkle on our garments by ourselves. It is not a do-it-yourself job.It is the Holy Spirit Who irons every wrinkle out of us.

And my sincere and love plea to you: please don't make premature judgments.

I am glad to explain to anyone what the Lord spoke to me. I must speak the truth, not mixing with fanaticism or modernism.

I appreciate the Bereans what what they did. We too are to test everything with the Word of God.

The Holy Spirit is a marvelous Person. Dive deep into Him, He is given without measure to us.

The fruit of the Spirit is grown by the Holy Spirit in our hearts when we receive Jesus into our hearts. But the fulness of the fruit is possible only after one receives the Holy Spirit within him.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Hey friends,

check out this site. It's excellent!

www.dpmusa.org (http://www.dpmusa.org) (Derek Prince's site)

sidharth

[bear (bear)]

belong2jesus,

As to your comments on my last post, I believe exactly as you.

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear Seriousmatter,

I don't think our conversation is getting any where. It doesn't matter how many years you've studied on this subject, what you learned in 40 years, the Holy Spirit can teach a person in one year. He is the best Teacher.

The Lord told me, people have pushed off many of the things in His Word as fanaticism and He was limited from working in their lives as He wanted to.

I don't think I have the time right now to explain the whole thing once more. The Holy Spirit started teaching me from the time I believed in the Lord Jesus. But it wasn't until I received the Holy Spirit baptism, that is the Teacher moved made His indwelling in me, that I coudl hear the voice of the Lord clearly. I would be carried away in the Spirit, and would be unaware about the time. It would seem as half an hour in his presence, when I would spend around half a day in His presence. The cloud of His glory would be so heavy, that mostly I would feel sleeping was a waste of time. The way the Lord embraced me was very unusual. He surely has different ways of dealing with people of different backgrounds. If I slept my spirit would be open to Him, and He would teach me even in my dreams. But He told me that many of His people had gone ahead of Him by depending on manifestations, instead of His Word. He said His Word would be my safety, and that I was to take everything to His Word and compare what was taught. The Lord never contradicts Himself, He always speaks in accordance to His Word. It was during this time I was led to a man of God by the name Ernest Angley. A preacher from Akron, Ohio. As I read his sermons and literatures, I couldn't believe what I heard. He would use the same words the Holy Spirit used. I compared what this man taught in his church to what the Holy Spirit taught me, and I was absolutely dumb-founded. The anointing on this man of God is unusual. I knew my same dear Holy Spirit taught this man of God also.

Later I came across the teachings of Derek Prince and Smith Wigglesworth. I should say, what both these men of God taught was also exactly what the Holy Spirit taught me.

You asked me what Derek Prince believed. He believed in exactly what I told you, and so does Smith Wigglesworth and Ernest Angley.

I don't have time again to go through the whole thing. I trust the Holy Spirit to teach you His Word. Do not resist Him, He knows all the topics of heaven, you needn't be so suspicious as you are with me, when you are with Him. He is the Spirit of truth and He will give you nothing but the truth. But one thing: You MUST bury what you have already learned.

I read Ernest Angley's "Hurry Friday"(his autobiography) and he said there were things he had to unlearn when he came to the school of the Holy Spirit. I'm glad he was humble to bow down to the Holy Spirit.

I don't remember Derek Princes book on this subject, I think it was "The Holy Spirit In You". he speaks clearly about the difference of the Holy Spirit being in a person and the Holy Spirit being with a person.

I believe the Lord will speak to you of what He has to say about His own words. Am praying special for you, serious. God bless.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you"(John16:7)

To strip all that you said, the Holy Spirit did not come until Jesus departed. This is in line with everything I said. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit only on the Day of pentacost. On resurrection morn, Jesus didn't send the Holy Spirit. He just bearthed on them. They became a work of the Spirit.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear Serious,

I checked with the references you gave me. In John 20, you said Jesus breathed 'INTO' them. I checked for the accurate greek translation and it says, "ON" or "OVER" them, not "INTO".

(Here'e the Greek study I conducted:
There are 3 greek prepositions used along with the Holy Spirit: Para, Epi and En.
In John14:16,17 we find the greek prepositions Para and En. Para in english is with and En in english is IN. In John 20, the greek word used is "Epi" means over or on, not INTO, as you said. )

In John 14, Jesus mentions of this Counselor and He says He would pray to the Father and the Father would give the Holy Spirit. Everytime He speaks of this Person, He says "Whom the Father will send in My name."(verse 26)

In John 15, Jesus uses this phrase, "Whom I will send from the Father."(verse 26)

The Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father to Jesus, in answer to His prayer. And when Jesus would ascend back to heaven, He would receive this promise and send Him(the Holy Spirit) from the Father.

Now in John 16, we find Jesus say it is expedient for them that He goes away, and He makes it clear that if He doesn't go away the Comforter WILL NOT come. He makes it clear by saying, " but if I depart, I will send Him unto you"(John 16:7).


Relating to the same incident, Jesus says later after the ressurection and before His departure to <u>wait</u> for the "promise of the Father", which they had heard of Him speak earlier. The only time Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit was before His crucifixion in John 14, 15 and 16.

In Act1, Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit as a gift. Some people debate that Jesus was speaking about the gift's' of the Spirit. But on a closer study, the greek word used here for gift is "Dorea" and the greek word used for the gift in the gifts of the Spirit is "Charisma".
From the first gift(Dorea) comes the gifts(Charisma).
By saying, the gift of the Holy Spirit, Jesus meant the Holy Spirit could not be earned, He was a free gift from the Father.

Now you said, there are more than one 'receive' in the bible, and the people had already received the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them, but this is in disagreement with John 16:7, where Jesus said the Holy Spirit(Person) would not come until Jesus departed, and also in disagreement with the truth that Jesus would send it FROM the Father. Jesus had to ascend to heaven to be with the Father, and to 'send' the Holy Spirit FROM the Father. If Jesus would be with them, He wouldn't use the word 'send'. The coming of the Holy Spirit would take Jesus' departure.

The epistles were written to people who had already received the Holy Spirit. When you study the case of the church at Ephesus, the people received the Holy Spirit after they believed, and were baptized in water and then Paul placed his hands on them they received the Holy Spirit. Relating to this incident he says "in Whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
They received the promise of the Holy Spirit or were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit only after they believed. In some translations, as you said the words ,"having believed" is used. However, it does not contradict what I said. Study what happened in Ephesus and then come to what was spoken to them in the book of Ephesians.

In Romans 8, the epistle was written to people who had already received the Holy Spirit. For Paul stresses that the Holy Spirit was given to them in Romans5:5.
Now it is through the eternal Spirit, that Jesus offered Himself as a lamb without blemish. The Hebrew writer testifies to this.

I do not purpose to make a disctinction between the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit, yet there is a difference in the attribute of God as mentioned here. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of truth in the Scriptures. But I believe the Spirit of Christ represents another attribute of Christ. It refers to the 2 Corinthians 5:17 experience or the John 20 experience where the disciples didnot receive the Holy Spirit of promise, but became born-again, and they were bought with the blood of Jesus.

But it will take the Spirit Who raised Jesus from the dead to quicken our mortal bodies. It is through the eternal Spirit we will be caught up when Jesus makes His second appearance in mid-air.

It is in accordance to the power that worketh within us that we will be changed. When to relate this to Act1:8 you will realize it will take the Holy Spirit dwelling IN us to make the rapture.

It will take a greater power to go the way of rapture than the way of the grave. In case of those who sleep in Christ, they are already with the Lord. Again I say the only criteria to enter heaven is a born-again experience, you DON'T have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But to make the rapture one has to have the Holy Spirit dwelling IN them. This is in accordance to Romans 8:11.

In the prophetic letter to the Church at Laodicea John is given this message, "So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!". Without the fire of Pentacost one cannot keep 'heated up'. It will take the fire of the Holy Ghost, that Pentacostal fire to make the rapture. Those who are lukewarm, who have rejected this marvelous gift(the Holy Spirit) from heaven, which took the death ressurection and ascension of Jesus will be spewed out of God's mouth. It may be strong, yet it is true.

If you have been taught by the Holy Spirit on Bible prophecy, I'm sure He would have taught you on the periods that the churches in revelation represent. The church at Philedelphia represents the rapture generation and the church at Laodicea represents the church that will go through the tribulation.

The Holy Spirit never gives out junk or lies, He is the Spirit of truth and He is rightly called that.

I trust the Holy Spirit, and no one else. The Bereans wanted to know what was spoken is in accordance to God's infallible Word and they checked what was taught. You haven't given me any convincing proof of what you are trying to prove.

You quoted John 7:37-39,

"On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

John 7:39 says this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because JESUS WAS NOT GLORIFIED.

Again, Jesus was glorified(or exalted) only when He ascended to heaven, and the Spirit was given to them from heaven.

"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear."(Act2:32, 33)


I pray the Holy Spirit speaks to you.
Sorry if I offended you, that is not my purpose. False doctrine stinks in the nostrils of God. God will strip all false doctrines. He told me the only weapon that can strip false doctrines and wrong interpretations was the Word of God. He carried me away in the Spirit to show me the place where Jesus was tempted in the wilderness and showed me how Jesus stripped the false interpretation of the devil with the Word of God.

You are all the more dear to me, when I feel your love for the Lord. I appreciate it. But be humble enough receive God's word.

Through Calvary's love,
Sidharth

(Message edited by belong2jesus on September 02, 2005)

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear Serious,

I never would or will address you as having nature of Satan. Don't get me wrong. Christians can be into false doctrine, doesn't mean they are unsaved or of the devil. To be a child of God, all that's needed is faith in the divinity of Jesus and trust in the cleansing power of His blood.

My purpose was to tell you, God's standard is His Word and even though the devil uses scriptures to deceive Christians, one can shut the devils lying lips by rightly dividing the Word of truth.

I checked with a site that has 3 versions in parallel: The NT greek, the KJV and the ASV. Each verse of the new testament is written side by side in all the three versions and the word "Epe" is used here, which means on or over. Derek Prince knows the New Testament Greek and it is from him that I learned a lot of the greek words. I personally haven't learnt Greek.

Serious, it would be good to know your name, because I find it hard to call a person by his or her screen name, yet it is upto you to reveal or not reveal your name.

There is only one verse that you use to say that Jesus breathed into the disciples. How do you justify your view after considering John 16:7? Jesus made it crystal clear that the Holy Spirit(in Person) would not come until He departed.

I never did base what I said, on the basis of my Hindu background. I always emphasize that, so as to let the people know that I do not have a preconceived notion about the Christian faith.

Ofcourse, I do not consider the way the Lord showed me grace lightly. Paul always mentioned about the grace given to Him. Don't get me wrong, I do not say I have complete knowledge of the Scriptures, what I purpose to say is that what the Lord taught me through His Holy Spirit I embrace it and put it deep within my spirit.

I do not follow Smith Wigglesworth's teachings. Yes, he is a wonderful man of God. I mentioned the names of Ernest Angley, Derek Prince, and Smith Wigglesworth because they are Word-Preachers. I have studied their materials and found there is nothing contrary to what the Holy Spirit taught me. Especially the same discussion we are having is clearly taught by Derek Prince in all his teachings on the Holy Spirit. If it would help, you could try reading "Who is the Holy Spirit?", "The Holy Spirit Baptism", or "The Holy Spirit In You" by Derek Prince. You could also read Ernest Angley's articles and tracts on the Holy Spirit on his web-page www.ernestangley.org (http://www.ernestangley.org). I believe both these men of God are Word-Preachers and they stand for the infallible Word of God.
Nevertheless, God's Word has the final say. As I said before in a personal visitation many years back the Lord spoke to me and said "Sidhu, you are to take every manifestation",(whether by word, prophecy, vision, dream, interpretation etc)"to My Word". God's Word is forever settled in the heavens, it is not debatable.

The disagreement between you and me is: you believe the Holy Spirt dwells in a born-again Christian while I don't. So if we deal with the root of it: whether the Holy Spirit dwells in a born-again Christian, then the other will fall in line. But you haven't given me any convincing biblical scriptures to say that the Holy Spirit dwells in a believer.
To me you are contradicting Jesus when He said what He said in John 14, 15 and 16.
Your interpretation is totally based on John 20:22. Which you said is inbreathed, but I said is breath over or on.I will check on that once more.But that doesn't help. When Jesus said, the Holy Spirit would not come until He departed, He meant it. He didn't say He would breath the Holy Spirit into them, He said He would SEND the Holy Spirit from the Father. I don't know what you meant by capitalizing AND in Act2:

"God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear."(Act2:32, 33)" Did you notice the word AND?: - "he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit AND has poured out what you now see and hear" -Serious

Jesus said without departing and going to the Father, He would not send the Holy Spirit. Only when Jesus ascended to heaven did He receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. The promised Holy Spirit was not breathed on the disciples in John20:22, because Jesus told the disciples before His ascension. "Wait for the promise of the Father, which ye have heard of me." . I can't understand why you're playing around like this when without me explaining all this, the Scripture is absolutely clear and simple about the promise of the Holy Spirit. To me, it all seems as though you are trying to fit in your doctrine into the bible.

Yes, you are right that Jesus did go to the mercy seat and offer His blood on the altar after He met Mary and before He met Thomas, but it was after He came back He spoke of the promise of the Holy Spirit, that the Father would send in His name. Moreover, Jesus didnot depart He came back to them, the only time He departed was after 40 days in Bethany. Whether you agree or not John14,15,and 16 is related to Act1, not John 20.

In greek the word for 'spirit' and 'breath' is same: "pneuma". Derek Prince, in one of his books says John 20:22 needn't necessarily mean the Holy Spirit, it could also mean 'holy breath'. He says, "the title of the Person of the Holy Spirit is always accompanied with the 'the' prefix.".
This is in line with what I said before.

The Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father to Jesus as a result of praying. Only when Jesus left did the other Comforter come.

God loves sinners and loves those who are living for Him, but hates hypocrites. Lukewarmness is a sign of hypocrisy. God would rather have people cold and sinners, so that he can save them, than have hypocrites who deny the power of God, but have a form of godliness.

Serious, please don't interpret the prophecies by yourself.There are times in our personal study that we come up with our own ideas about the Word of God. I had a lot of hindu philosophy when I came to the Word of God. I remember saying,"But Lord, how can I believe that?". He asked me,"Who is the Teacher, child? You or Me? You will have to bury your opinions when you come to Me."

I have nothing more to say but "bury your opinions when you go to the school of the Holy Spirit."
Do not think I am be-littling you. No! Just showing you the way to receive God's abundant grace when you humble yourself before Him. Remember, "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
If you see the pattern Paul estabilishes in Philipians 2:5 onwards, it shows the mind of Jesus. The mind of Jesus was that of humility. He had the humility of heaven. Bowing down to God's Word, rather than what man has to say or what you have to say about His Word. I don't believe true humility is bowing down to others ideas and opinions of the Word, but bowing down to what God has to say about Himself and His Word. Jesus had that humble spirit of obedience and love to the Lord. I marvel at the Spirit of Christ!

If you don't mind I would like to know you better as a friend and a fellow brother. I love you not because of anything in you or because of what you believe, but because you are special to Jesus,and because He gave His blood life for you.

You could e-mail me at sidharth.mohandas@gmail.com
Guess how old I am?<laughs>

Yours serving Him,
Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear Serious,

I checked with a Greek Scholar in the New Testament. I don't think she is Pentacostal, but she said the Greek word used in John 20:22, is "emphuso"(I am doubtful about the spelling). She gave me the meaning as "to blow at" or "blow on", "to puff", or "to breathe on". I asked her whether there is in any way it could mean "breath into". She said she'll look into the Strong's Concordance and make sure and let me know. After this she called and told me that the word used is "to breathe on" or "to blow at" without a shadow of a doubt. Before calling her i had checked with many versions of the bible to see if at least one of them had translated this any other way. Here are the translations from various versions of the bible:

<u>King James Version</u>:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

<u>New International Version</u>:

"And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

<u>New American Standard Bible</u>:

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

<u>Amplified Bible</u>:

"And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!"

<u>New Living Translation</u>:

"Then he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

<u>American Standard Version</u>:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:"

<u>Young's Literal Translation</u>:

"and this having said, he breathed on [them], and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;"

<u>Holmann Christian Standard Bible</u>:

"After saying this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

<u>English Standard Version</u>

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

If you have any doubt about this, you yourself can check these translations yourself. I have just copy-pasted them.


E-mail me only in the above address. Thank you.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

"he breathed on"
New Testament Greek Definition:
1720 emphusao {em-foo-sah'-o}
from 1722 and phusao (to puff) [cf 5453]; TDNT - 2:536,232; v
AV - breathe on 1; 1
1) to blow or breathe upon
++++
This word used only once by the LXX translators in Gen 2:7 where God
breathed on Adam and he became a living soul. Just as the original
creation was completed by an act of God, so to the new creation was
completed by an act from the Head of the new creation. (AWP Jo 20:22)



Dear Serious,

I took this from the Strong's Definition in the site you gave me.
http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Yes, I read about the usage of "enephusesen"(breathe into) by certain Greek Lexicon's.

I can only tell you that there is one Lexicon by the name Wierwille who believed one could receive the Holy Spirit by just breathing in. In his Greek New Testament he replaced the word "emphusao" by "enephusesen". According to what I read, this man believed one could receive the Holy Spirit by yoga(Hindu meditation). I don't think I need to tell you the danger of Yoga.

Here are some reliable Greek Lexicon's :

Bauer, Arndt, Ginrich and Danker's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature gives the meaning of the word as "breathe on". Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament gives the meaning as "to blow" or "breathe on". Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament gives the meaning as "to breathe upon" or "over".Even E.W. Bullinger's Lexicon, which is used by The Way, gives the meaning of the word as "to breathe upon, blow upon."

Hope things are clear.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Serious,

I used to think I didn't need to study the NT Greek Langauge, because I thought I had the Holy Spirit as my Teacher. But I was wrong. I will surely need to study the Greek langauage and read the correct manuscripts by good Lexicons to teach others about bible truths. The Holy Spirit can only give truth, and if people don't agree all we can do is leave them into His strong hands. I realized this long time back when I used to get so worked up about people rejecting the Holy Spirit baptism. I used to get worried for the reason people were deceived. But the Lord said, "It is My work, son. You don't have to get worried about it. You just have to move when I tell you to."
Those words from His lips released me so much. I realized God is ready to reveal Himself through His Word to those who really want to know Him and His Word.
I am so glad to know He wants to speak to us!

The previous site I used to check the greek wordings had three versions: KJV, ASV and the Greek Translation. The Greek word given there for breathed over or on is: "epefushsen". I believe this Lexicon has written another word for "emphusao". I am not sure, since I do not know greek.

And I am in no way greater than you. Many of the things I wrote which you took as offensive were written in a different tone and many I believe you misunderstood. I believe that's the problem with these forums, the tone in which one says them is not carried along.


Sidharth

[easeltine (easeltine)]

Hi,

John 20:22 - This Scripture is also a Scripture used by RA Torrey, (What the Bible Teaches 1898 - See my points in the other thread on RA Torrey and DL Moody), before the Pentecostal movement to support that the disciples had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they were Baptized in the Holy Spirit. DL Moody also believed that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was an experience that is separate, distinct, and subsequent to regeneration and is an experience that every child of God should know if they have received the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit or not, (See What the Bible Teaches by RA Torrey). The other point is that the disciple Thomas was not at that gathering and Jesus returns a few verses later and Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." We all have memorized Romans 10:9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Also 1 Corinthians 12:3b says, "...and no one can say "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

Really study the teachings of Charles Finney, RA Torrey, and DL Moody and you will find that these great men of the 1800's also believed that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes after conversion and regeneration. They believed there were many additional fillings after the initial Baptism with The Holy Spirit. The difference is that these men did not hold to the initial evidence of the prayer language that Pentecostals/Charismatics presently hold to as generally the initial evidence of the experience ot the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Christians that do not believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from salvation should consider John Chapter 20. The disciples were saved and had the indwelling Holy Spirit in them according to your own theology. Consider the Scriptures quoted above in in light of the following facts:

1. The disciples believed that Jesus was God Almighty come in the flesh.
2. The disciples believed that Jesus was the Christ the lamb of God that takes away their sins.
3. The disciples knew that Jesus Christ has risen from the dead.
4. The disciples confessed Him as Lord and God.

The disciples subsequently received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

I am reminded of part of a song by Terry Talbot on why we need the Baptism and the supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit now:

"...for clever words cannot proclaim the Gospel, they only make it void, their sound becomes a noise, and so we need the fire and the power, seeking every Gift we shall rejoice..."

Erich

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Eastline,

The problem here isn't whether we believe in the born-again experience or not. It's whether the Holy Spirit dwells in believers who are born-again or will it take the Holy Spirit baptism to have the Holy Spirit dwell in them.

Please read my posts 56 and 98. I don't believe the Holy Spirit as a Person came to dwell in the hearts of the disciples on Resurrection morn when Jesus breathed on them and said,"Receive ye the Holy Spirit".

You will have to read the discussion from the beginning to reply to this. I have given why I believe what I believe.

What happened in John20:22 is that the disciples were born again. In 1 Peter 1:2, we are taught that the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. It is using the blood of Jesus He cleanses us from all our sins. We are a work of the Spirit, when we are born-again and are said to be born of the Spirit and water. This is a distinct experience than having the Third Person of the Trinity to come and make His abode in one person.

Please read my previous posts and then continue the discussion.

Yes, R.A. Torrey was a wonderful man of God, but I don't think he believed in the Holy Spirit baptism with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. His book on "How To Pray" is a wonderful book. But I don't think he is one we can rely on the teachings of the Holy Spirit. I would ask you to read the teachings by Derek Prince, Smith Wigglesworth, or Ernest Angley. I believe only a person who has an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit can speak about Him.

Sidharth

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

And about 1 Corinthians 12:3b that you mentioned. Derek Prince in his book "Who is the Holy Spirit?", has related that in greek the title of the Person of the Holy Spirit is always prefixed by a "the". He says in certain places the "the" prefix is not used, as in the case of the following Scriptures:

Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:15, Luke1:35, John 20:22, Act10:38, Romans14:17, Romans 15: 13, Romans 15: 16, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Titus 3:5, Hebrew 2;4, Hebrew 6:4, 2Peter1:21, Jude 20

In all the above Scripture the "the" prefix is absent. From Derek Prince's book: "Through my study of Greek New Testament, I have come to a conclusion that the presence or absence of the "the" in conjunction with the Holy Spirit marks an important distinction. When "Holy Spirit" is not preceded by "the", it denotes something non-personal: life, or a power, a force, a presence, and influence. On the other hand, when "Holy Spirit" is preceded by "the", He is being depicted as a Person."

The bible says that God will speak from His temple. When the Holy Spirit makes His abode in a vessel He will speak through us(Isaiah28:11). This is why Paul tells Christians who had already received the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 6:19, "Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?"

Sidharth

(The Quote was from the book: "Who is the Holy Spirit?" by Derek Prince)

[belong2jesus (belong2jesus)]

Dear Serious,

Jesus breathed on the disciples on Resurrection morn, and said "Receive ye the Holy Spirit".

But let me ask you? If this was so, then Jesus should be breathing on us everytime a person receives Him. And you would say a "Yes He does" to that.

The purpose Jesus blew on them and said "Receive ye the Holy Spirit", was because without the Holy Spirit no one can be born-again. The Holy Spirit had not yet come as a Person, since Jesus had to depart and go to the Father for His arrival.

As I have been trying to explain, what happened there was just regeneration and sanctification by the Holy Spirit. But when Jesus ascended to heaven, He no longer needed to blow on those saved, because the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentacost in Person. This is why they were asked to wait until the Holy Spirit came, before they started preaching because the whole gospel is a work of the Spirit. When the Holy Spirit came, Peter preached the message of salvation and repentance.

As people receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit( I call Him the "Person behind the scene"), made them a living being, i.e. their spirits became alive. But for the Holy Spirit to come and dwell in them is a different experience. The Holy Spirit will not come and make His abode unless and until the person is clean through the blood of Jesus.

This is what the Holy Spirit explained to me.



Sidharth

[easeltine (easeltine)]

Sidharth,

I will review all of this.

Erich

[inkorrekt (inkorrekt)]

Moshem, Stay with Calvary Chapel. Chuck Smith is a great pastor.Learn from his teachings. Stay away from Assembly of God or any other Pentecostal Church. I still believe in the gifts of the spirit. I Spoke in tongues for many years and during this period, I was a DEAD CHRISTIAN inside. If you get a chance, please read the booklet titled, "DISCIPLE" by Juan Carlos Ortiz. You will never be the same. This book will guide you to become a joyful christian who will draw others to Christ. This is the purpose for the existence of all followers of Christ.

[arron (arron)]

yes the assembly of GOD is pentecostal

[chozen1]

Awhile back I purchased some Apostolic Faith Mags put out by Bro Seymour and some of Bro Parhams books.The copyright is expired and I plan to make copies, I have a schedule of classes for a semester at Bethel Bible College in Topeka if you would like more info
el_shadai@hotmail.com

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Chozen1:

You refer to William Seymour as brother, are you a racist? You did know that white people are not allowed to be ministers or deacons, etc. in Seymour's Church of God in Christ. I would also be interested in knowing who wrote Bro (your words) Seymour's Apostolic Faith newspaper. You did know that Seymour was legally blind?

You refer to the child-molesting-homosexual Charles Fox Parham as brother. You did know he was kicked out of pentecostalism's only pulpit by William Seymour for committing sodomy with little boys?

Or are you simply praying that no one else knows the truth?

[arron]

chozen. please send me coppies of the books when you get them published or send me order list and prices

[easeltine]

TATM's post 2 above are lies. They are not the Truth and do not accurately represent history.

[easeltine]

Chozen,

I have the same, "Like As Fire", that you talk about it. TATM's facts are so incorrect it's amazing!

[truth_child]

chosen 1 have you got those copies of the mags made yet tell me so i can get them