Oral Roberts University Richard Roberts

[BIG MIGHTY ED (216.183.184.253)]

ARE THEY FOR REAL

[SAM (216.183.184.253)]

ROBERTS' PERSONAL FINANCES

Harrell writes:

"Roberts' two California homes, partly for security reasons, were not much discussed by the ministry. Oral also remained sensitive about press criticism of his lifestyle. His house in Palm Springs, purchased for $285,000 and financed by a Tulsa bank, was his only privately owned home. In 1982 ORU endowment funds were used to purchase a $2,400,000 house in a high-security development in Beverly Hills. Considered a potentially profitable investment, the house served as Oral's West Coast office and residence." (p. 355)

"Oral's homes in California inevitably kept alive the old questions about his personal wealth and lifestyle. While probably not as probing as the press had been fifteen years earlier, reporters still took a keen interest in Oral's financial affairs. In 1981, the Associated Press published Roberts' personal income figures for the preceding five years--ranging from $70,000 in 1976 to $178,000 in 1978.

"In addition to his healthy income, derived mostly from book royalties, Oral continued to enjoy generous expense accounts: `The Robertses wear expensive clothes and jewelry and travel in a company-owned eight-passenger fanjet.'

Patti Roberts' book [following her divorce from Oral's son, Robert] and an earlier expose written by Jerry Sholes, renewed curiosity about the family's financial affairs, although Patti confessed that her own `extravagance' while she was Richard's wife had `blunted' her protest.

Tax records indicate that Oral's partners donated in excess of $38,000,000 in the fiscal year 1977-78, "surpassing every other religious association in the nation." (p. 389)

In 1979 a book was published by Jerry Sholes, a former employee of Oral Robert ministries, which detailed deep deception and hypocrisy:

"Here is a portrait of the real Oral Roberts, the man not too many of his admirers know. He dresses in Brioni suits that cost $500 to $1000; walks in $100 shoes; lives in a $250,000 house in Tulsa and has a million dollar home in Palm Springs; wears diamond rings and solid gold bracelets employees `airbrush' out of his publicity photos; drives $25,000 automobiles which are replaced every 6 months; flies around the country in a $2 million fanjet falcon; has membership, as does his son Richard, in `the most prestigious and elite country club in Tulsa,' the Southern Hills (the membership fee alone was $18,000 for each, with $130 monthly dues) and in `the ultra-posh Thunderbird Country Club in Rancho Mirage, California' (both father and son joined when memberships were $20,000 each--they are now $25,000); and plays games of financial hanky-panky that have made him and his family members independently wealthy (millionaires) for life. (When his daughter and son-in-law were killed, they left a $10 million estate!)" (Evangelist R.L. Sumner's review of Give Me that Prime- time Religion by Jerry Sholes)

"By the mid-1980s, Oral Roberts had come to be the chief executive officer of an organization that employed about 2,300 people and did an annual business of about 110 million dollars, about 60 percent of which was raised through contributions." (p. 485)

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

people get a spiritual high , or feel good experience but where's REPENTANCE and LIVING FOR God preached ..

[Anonymous (68.253.202.50)]

Isn't this the guy who saw the 900 foot Jesus and needed millions of Dollars or he would die?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

yeah that was back in 86-87

[Anonymous (66.109.144.224)]

Oral Roberts is still alive. This is proof that there is no god.

[Paul Howey (67.175.30.151)]

No this is proof that God is gracious to let such a man live who teaches and profits from the horrendous seed-faith heresy. In the same way, God is gracious to all of us as we each have our own problems.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

If I'm not mistaken, Oral Roberts raised the $8 million.

But, still, that was a rather outrageous thing to say.

Oral Roberts has appeared disoriented at times in later years and I have often wondered if he was competent when he made that statement.

[STEVE WESLEY (68.119.202.252)]

REV ROBERTS WAS AT THE BEGINNING A TRUE MAN OF GOD HE HAS NOW GOTTEN OFF ON THIS PROSPERTY GOSPEL AND IS STILLL GOING ON WITH IT. IT IS SAD AS HE USED TO WIN SOULS AND CONSETRAT ON SOUL WINNING MORE THAN MONEY I KNOW THEY NEED MONEY TO CARRY ON BUT TO USE THIS PROSPERTY GOSPEL TO GET IT IS WRONG

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

yes it is sad ,back in the 50's & 60's they did evangelism , now today they do none just TV fund raising , putting TV stations and programs in other countries is NOT evangelism.i spent time overseas and the people don't watch such programing

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

The 50's and 60's at least looked like true evangelism.

Does anyone remember Rex Humbard?

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

By the way, it seems to me that most Christian TV stations/networks target Christian viewers. Not that there is anything wrong with this - I watch a number of fine Christian teaching/Christian living programs - but when was the last time you saw a program on a Christian TV station that was preaching the message of salvation directly to the lost?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

yeah good question , most stuff preached on TV now is like self esteem and pop psycology and prosperity , nothing about true harvest,winning the lost and discipleship

[steve wesley (68.119.202.252)]

it has been a long time since i saw a program on t.v. that was not.. dedicated soley .. to money and raising funds and telling people how to get rich.. they need to preach the gospel

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

these TV raise funds of the spread of their TV programs but dont go themselves nor send missionaries or evangelists to these foreign countries...i been overseas in southeast asia and they don't watch the programs , 1) cause those that work long hours in their jobs 2) there is no translation for the native languages of the people 3) the fund raising gimmicks seen on tv there,

when i say some of the same celebrity preachers asking for money from the poor nations i was shocked.

[Britta Wahlquist (64.61.211.121)]

I was just flipping stations and stopped at a Benny Hinn program with Oral Roberts speaking in regards to a "dream/prophecy" he recently had which Benny Hinn was lapping up. I didn't catch what it pertained to. Does anyone know what Oral Roberts is purporting? I'm interested in which deception is being propagated.

[Paul Howey (66.1.6.43)]

Dear Britta,

Oral Roberts is a major promoter of the "seed-faith" error. I'm not sure exactly what was said on that particular program, but I can tell you that if what these guys preached really worked, they would give money away instead of asking for it and hence gain the 30, 60 and 100 fold return directly for themselves. As I mentioned in another forum on Factnet (100 Fold) and elaborated here:

These "ministries" often get testimonies from their victims and regularly claim credit for “coincidental” things that would have naturally occurred within God’s system based on normal sowing and reaping such as the millions of people, Christians and non-Christians alike, who “sow” hard work and “reap” a job promotion as a “harvest”. The “money preachers” also love to overemphasize money and elevate it to the level of “seed” but the Word says that the Word is the seed. A seed is a living thing. Money is not. Money is as dead as a doornail. The Bible is the living Word. In Mark 4:14 we see that the farmer sows the WORD, a living thing. This is the context of the 30, 60 and 100-fold return. See Matt 13 as well.

These dangerous teachers are notorious for turning this teaching into something to do with money. That’s ludicrous. The return is a result of the Word of God falling on good ground, which represents those who are obedient to the Word and act on it. They then in turn produce spiritual fruit. This has absolutely nothing to do with money or monetary increase as these guys teach.

Money is a tool to help the poor, the widow and the fatherless but these men use money as fuel to feed their television businesses disguised as ministries and opulent extravagant living. Money preachers twist a multitude of unrelated Bible teachings into something to do with increase and financial blessings for themselves. Most of them have bought into this same “seed-faith” error propagated by Oral Roberts and continued on today through famous TV money preachers, Mike Murdock and many others. They teach that gain is Godliness, that Godliness is a means to get gain and that gain is a sign of Godliness, all false teachings. The Bible commands us to have nothing to do with those that believe this. Anyone with common sense knows that Hugh Heffner is not Godly just because he has made millions (from selling Playboy Magazine). But unfortunately few Christians use their common sense and many buy into the same kind of lie in the church when they think their favorite TV preachers are Godly because of the of their wealth and fame. They reason that God has blessed them so their teachings must be valid. The truth is they have “blessed” themselves through clever self-promotion, etc. and most of their teachings are false.

These guys are direct beneficiaries of their own beliefs and teachings. In Christianity, other people are the direct beneficiaries of the efforts of true Disciples of Christ, the greatest amongst us being the servant of all. Disciples look to the needs of others over their own needs, as according to Jesus, it is far better to give than to receive. True disciples of Christ who happen to have money are safe. They have the self-control and wisdom to handle it well and use it for good. The problem is when novices in positions of authority, wolves, thieves and hirelings, whatever the case may be, teach error and misuse money, creating havoc in the Body of Christ.

The horrendous practices of these kind of preachers have given the impression to the world that Christianity is some kind of slime-ball money grubbing religion and nothing could be farther from the truth. This is one of the things that has contributed greatly to why so many people do not want to at least consider Christ today.

Paul Howey

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

very well said Paul , you should start a website that can help answer people questions to these things.

Money is being wasted in alot of those ministries none of them go into the highways and byways. like i said in other posts on these issues ,100 fold return, seed faith,way out preachers...is alot of the foreign countries dont watch the americanized TV gospel,cause they work long hours ,poor and no cable tv, etc..

[Paul Howey (66.1.6.43)]

Amen and funny you should say that about a website. I am working on building one.

Thanks for the confirming word!

Paul

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

When a preacher talks about money or worldly success more than he talks about Jesus, I say, watch out. There's a discussion going on about Jimmy Swaggart in another thread on this board. Say what you will about his past moral failings, he looks to be preaching the Gospel (Christ and Him crucified), and I give him credit for continuing to do so, despite his own disgrace.

[SUE (216.183.184.253)]

TO 6616.43

YES YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, I AGREE THE MONEY IS FOR THE POOR. NOT FOR THESE TV LYING PREACHERS.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Well, they're not all liars. I like John Hagee, for one. David Jeremiah of "Turning Point" is a good teacher in my opinion, somewhat similar to Charles Stanley.

When it starts getting too emotional (I hesitate to say "too charismatic") and there are lots of appeals for money, that worries me. People get carried away, and it may or may not be of the Spirit.

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Interestingly enough, ORU's TV show is claiming that Oral has had a "new revelation" (or words to that effect) and that it will be revealed on the TV show, beginning September 27th.

[GodsServant (205.188.117.20)]

<CENTER>Oral Roberts has claimed to be shown a vision. I have heard him speak on the matter.

He says the rapture is near. Thats all I feel to say at this moment.</CENTER>

GOD BLESS

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

Maybe it is. I would not presume to know, but I will be interested to see what Oral has to say in the coming weeks.

[Anonymous (63.184.161.246)]

What a wicked generation. Always in search of a sign.

[Anonymous (24.14.202.85)]

FALSE PROPHECIES &amp; OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS

1977 - Oral Roberts claimed that he received a vision, or revelation, from God. In the vision he claimed that God told him to build the City of Faith Medical Center. He also claimed that he saw a 900 foot tall Jesus, who said that the City of Faith would be successful. Four years later, in 1981, he opened the City of Faith.

1983 - Oral Roberts: said that Jesus Christ appeared to him in person (not a vision) and told him to find a cure for cancer. So far, he has not found that cure.

1986 - Oral Roberts said that God told him the following: "I want you to use the ORU medical school to put My medical presence in the earth. I want you to get this going in one year or I will call you home. It will cost $8 million and I want you to believe you can raise it."

1987 - In January Oral Roberts said that God spoke to him and told him that he had not sent out any medical missionaries from the university or City of Faith. God instructed him to raise $8 million by March of the same year or God would take him home (presumably God would kill Oral Roberts or translate him to heaven like Enoch). The money raised was to provide full scholastic scholarships for medical missionaries who would be sent to other countries. He claimed that $3.5 million had already been raised, but he needed $4.5 million more by March 1, in order to get the full $8 million and prevent God from taking him home.

1987 - On April 1 Oral Roberts said that he had received $9.1 million which was $1.1 million more that was required by God.

1987 - In November, Oral Roberts announced that the City of Faith would be closing down.

1988 - In January, Oral Roberts discontinued the medical scholarships. Apparently he was no longer afraid that God was going to take him home.

1988 - In March, the medical scholarship fund went bankrupt. If any students wished to transfer to any other institution, they were required to repay their scholarships at 18% interest.

1989 - In September, Oral Roberts closed the City of Faith.

http://www.ondoctrine.com/10robero.htm

[Anonymous (24.14.202.85)]

Isaiah 44:25 I am the one who exposes the false prophets as liars by causing events to happen that are contrary to their predictions. I cause wise people to give bad advice, thus proving them to be fools.

Jeremiah 23:28 Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between chaff and wheat!

[Anonymous (198.81.26.73)]

I don't need to see a sign from Oral Roberts or anyone else in order to have faith. I am just interested to see what he says. It may be true, or merely amusing.

[GodsServant (64.12.117.20)]

<CENTER><FONT SIZE="+0">VERY TRUE Anonymous (198.81.26.73)</FONT></CENTER>

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

This from Oral Roberts' web site (www.oru.edu):

Wake Up! Jesus Is Coming Sooner Than You Think

with Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts, &amp; Kenneth Copeland

For years Oral Roberts has been one of the key prophetic voices God has used to preach the Word of the Lord, pray for the sick, and proclaim the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now God has spoken to Oral again. God has given Oral a "wake-up" vision about the future. It's a vision of what God is about to do in the earth. It's God's message of love to His body—the Church, to the Jewish people, and to all the nations of the earth. And along with Oral's vision, Kenneth Copeland has a prophetic word of confirmation and interpretation to add about what Oral has seen and what God has been dealing with him about in recent days.

In this life-changing vision, Oral is joined by Richard Roberts and Kenneth Copeland, who give God's prophetic insight on this vision from the Lord.

Now you can watch and listen to Wake Up! Jesus Is Coming Sooner Than You Think as Oral unveils in detail the vision he was given from the Lord concerning the days we are living in.

- PLUS -

For a Seed-Faith Gift of $20 or more, you will also receive Oral's book, The Second Coming of Jesus—Sooner Than You Think, Lindsay's salvation booklet He Was Dying To Meet You, and Richard's booklet on Hearing the Voice of God.

[Anonymous (24.14.202.85)]

Oral Roberts and Kenneth Copeland are both false prophets. Both men have spoken prophecies that have not come to pass.

Isaiah 44:25 I am the one who exposes the false prophets as liars by causing events to happen that are contrary to their predictions. I cause wise people to give bad advice, thus proving them to be fools.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hmmm. If God causes wise people to give bad advice, this raises questions like (1) Are they still wise people? and (2) Whose fault is it that they made false predictions?

I suspect a great many Christian leaders have predicted, or at least hinted at, events that have not come to pass. Are they all wrong, or false teachers, or fools?

[Anonymous (24.14.202.85)]

Jeremiah 23:28 Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between chaff and wheat!

[Greg H. (152.163.101.12)]

Back in the 1940's, my grandmother was healed of T.B. (at a time when there was no cure) under the ministry of O.R. However, if he and others of TBN are claiming they've received a "revelation" as to the rapture of the church, let us heed the words of Paul, regardless of who may be preaching this stuff (which, I might add, comes mainly from the teachers on TBN)...

Paul says in II Thes. 2 - "Now we beseech you, Brethren, by THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by our gahtering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST IS AT HAND. LET NO MAN DECIEVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME EXCEPT..." and you can read the rest for yourself.

Oral and the like have corrupted the Gospel by their "message" of prosperity, fleecing the sheep and making merchandise out of those who would follow an idea of getting rich rather than the Truth, which is Jesus. I wouldn't pay much attention to anything doctrinal he has to say, or Benny Hinn for that matter, or let's just throw the whole lot of TBN in there. Money is the focal point, not Jesus....I guess that says it all, huh?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Just my opinion: Oral Roberts started out well but seemed to get off track later. I still have much respect for him, as I do for Billy Graham, Rex Humbard, and other pioneers of televangelism. As for TBN, what passes for "original" programming there is hardly worth mentioning, but they run some good programs at other times. Benny Hinn has been exposed on many other Web sites for what he is.

[Greg H (152.163.101.12)]

O.R. may have started off on the right track, and I believe he probably did, but the fact remains that he has corrupted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, along with the rest of the "prosperity" teachers, who bring "another" gospel that is no gospel at all. How can one respect someone who has so corrputed the pureness of God's message to mankind merely for the purpose of building his own fortune by fleecing the unlearned and gullible?

It's so sad to see how so many have started off rightly only to be beguiled, seduced, and had their faith shipwrecked, as Paul put it, for the riches of the world. The properity message is a lie, an American get-rich-quick scheme, that has led so many astray. Jesus CLEARLY says, "Lay not treasures up for yourself in this world..." We'd be much better off to heed the words of the Savior of the World rather than men who have been suduced by their own lusts and greed.

As far as TBN, I admit, you may, from time to time, find something redeemable in their programming, but it's mainly on in the middle of the night when the masses don't watch anyhow. They promote this heresy of prosperity and the damage they do far outweighs any good that may come from it.

May God "open up the eyes of our understanding" that we may see clearly the so many traps laid out by our enemy, that we may see clearly the purpose that God has laid out to His people. Trust me, it's not to be "wealthy," as TBN propogates.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I agree about wealth. Jesus also said, "A man's life does not consist of the things that he possesses." This is a message that America needs to hear more often.

And while I am no big fan of TBN, they do air In Touch, John Hagee, and Turning Point, all good sound Christian teaching/preaching programs, none of them in the middle of the night.

It has been observed (and Biblically so) that God may use less-than-righteous people to further His purposes. Only God can render His judgment on TBN in general, but those who find fault may wish to consider this.

As for Oral Roberts, I think he was sincere in believing he had a calling to build the City of Faith and try to cure cancer. It's hard for me to assess the "send me $8 million or God will take me home" incident, but it seems to me that he got off track around that time.

Watch the footage of OR's early tent revivals, though, and you can't help but respect the man for where he has been and how he started out. I am sure that he has led many, many people to the Lord, and how many of us can say the same?

[M (69.242.21.100)]

i really do love the old tent revival stuff from the 50's it definatly started out good ...actually ALL of our Churches do need to RETURN to our first Love Jesus , and quit the program/entertainment purpose driven junk science churches and be HOUSES OF WORSHIP HOUSES OF PRAYER ...when do any churches PRAY ??? i dont mean when the pastor prays but when do people gather together FOR PRAYER for our leaders our nation ,other nations other people to be saved etc.???

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I agree with the last post. Church does not need to be entertainment, but there's nothing wrong with a good speaker and a little showmanship as long as the Biblical message is sound. Purpose Driven Church? The purpose of the church is to preach the Word, minister to the flock, heal the sick, save the lost. We don't need any book but the Bible to to figure that out.

[Sharon (142.177.92.28)]

Well what a difference a day makes. Yesterday a friend told me of Oral Roberts having a vision and could I look it up and tell her about it. I said sure, it peaked my interest and I also wanted to know his vision.

But then I came here and saw that he had asked for so much money or he would die. And the center that he built with the money failed. I did not bother to go any where else to look.

So last night she asked me about it I said do not bother about him for God would never say such a thing to anyone. Then I remembered that God had told me to stay out of the churchs. And all the people who could not understand why he would do that, including me.

I then saw what a humbleing experience it would be to have to ask for that kind of money and to say that this was Gods message to you. Then to get the money and still fail. Would a person still believe. Would you be angry, would you doubt.

So now I must go and find his message and see what goes on with him now. Hope its a good message.

[M (69.242.21.100)]

anyone know what is this talk of a new recent VISION that Oral Roberts has had for America ??? some type of prophecy or something ???

[Anonymous (24.14.202.85)]

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.

[Sharon (142.177.72.68)]

Well I am back and I am dissapointed, He talks of the coming rapture. But he has not really been very Christ like so I think I will calm down my enthusiam for now. Also he has said many false things in his time.

If you want to read his vision go to his site, like I did. Maybe I am wrong.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Ever since the "give me $8 million or I die" speech, I have wondered if O.R. might be growing senile or experiencing dementia. This is not intended as a slight - many people have such conditions, physical in origin, but it would be difficult for anyone to admit that a "man of God" suffered from such a thing. When it happens to a celebrity (I think of George Burns and Bob Hope), they tend to hide him from public view until the end finally comes.

Oral is probably right, though - since I believe, along with the Biblical writers, that Christ is coming soon.

[servant (68.34.207.230)]

It is my humblest plea that you take the time time to pray and ask God if the things I share are true and seek it out with diligence in your heart. The authority and fullness of the origiginal church of Jesus Christ has been restored is these latter days. Led by God through prophets, apostles,seventies, deacons, and teachers. Them having recieved their authority as did those in Christ time. Many of these precious truths have been lost. The great falling away prophesied began after the crucifiction of Christ and the destruction and death of the Apostles that followed. That being the beginning of corruption and confusion upon the lands. The authority,or Priesthood of God, was taken from the Earth. Men began to distort and misinterpret the Gospel for their own gain. A restoration was neccessary to prepare the world for the return of Christ. The Holy Spirit, and even the logic of your mind, should manifest the fsct that although there are many well intentioned people that love God, God cannot be as diverse as all the many "Christian" religions that exsist on the earth today. "There shall be many in that day that say Lord, Lord---, There is "one faith --. Our Heavenly Father is absolute law and truth. He has always called Prophets to be His "mouthpiece" to the world. Is Christ return not the most important event in history? Would God not send Prophets in this end time to straighten out this mess we have made of Christianty? I plead with you not to accept my words but seek out for yourself (James 1 5-7) and prayer with sincerety of heart that you might know the truth. I bear testimony to all that have ears to hear that these things are true in the name of our savior Jesus Christ.Amen LDS.org

[Gods kids (66.99.115.29)]

We have known Roberts for years.HE is anointed and blessed.All the negative posts on here are false!They are posted by Satanists posing as Christians."$100 for shoes,$250k for a house,25K for a car"-this is cheap!Where we live,you can't get a decent house for under 900k!!Roberts is going to sit with God in a gold mansion in heaven.He has been a faithful servant.

[Anonymous (24.119.11.69)]

Okay. God gave Oral Roberts a Vision.

Oral feels that he should share that vision with the world. Oral has no shortage of money. Why doesn't he simply post his vision on the World Wide Web?

Posting his Vision on the Web would get the word out. By not posting it, and making people pay 20-dollars for it... Is he holding God's message, hostage?

Balaam comes to mind. Balaam was a true prophet. But to quote Don Francisco, "Balaam's head was turned, by the money he could earn."

Perhaps Oral has received a true Vision from God. But his head has been turned by the money that information could earn him.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

I second that last post re: the Internet. It's one thing to have a vision, another to use it as a potential fund-raiser.

Now that I've said that, I should note that this vision has already been broadcast twice on the nightly ORU telecast "Hour of Healing", so it has been made available for free.

[Dr. P (66.72.87.61)]

http://www.orm.cc/wake-up-transcript.html

Might want to read the transcript of Copeland, and Oral and son, as they discussed this on Copeland's show... read a ways into it, and you should get the jist of the vision.

I just started to find out about Oral Roberts, and I'm very undecided as to whether or not to listen to him.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

i liked his old preaching tent meetings and evangelism back in the 50's ,of course i wasnt alive yet but would like to see films of those ..this is what i think the whole Christian church must do ..is get back to basics get back to repentance and do outside open air meetings ..and close down all the hyped up programs and stuff....isn't God enough..

[Anonymous (205.188.117.11)]

They occasionally show clips of Oral Roberts' old tent revivals on the ORU TV show, "Hour of Healing."

Since they're running old Billy Graham crusades on TBN and Bishop Sheen on EWTN, I don't see why they couldn't just take a half-hour and run the whole O.R. tent revival. I'd enjoy seeing them, too.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

Thanks for posting the link to that transcript. I don't know what to think. Oral also saw a 900-foot Jesus who told him to build the City of Hope (now shuttered) and then there was the whole fundraising thing where God was going to "call him home" if he didn't get millions of dollars (he did). So, I just don't know. As I look at the condition of the world, I think it may very well be true that Christ is coming soon, but if so, would He tell Oral first?

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

my question to Oral would be ..why would you fear going home??? i remember that all over the radio back in my sinner days he asked for 6 million ,,it really turned off alot of people i know people that won't come to church because of that .....

[Anonymous (205.188.117.12)]

I don't think he feared going home - I think he felt that his opportunity to do any more good on earth would be gone. But I suppose I shouldn't presume.

Every day I get a mailing from some TV preacher saying they are a half-million, million dollars, two million dollars in debt. Don't these people ever take financial advice? I know that buying all that TV time is expensive, but man.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

they should read the Bible "owe no man anything"

[heartfelt (heartfelt)]

I Read A Few Of The Comments Posted And If You Will Look Back On Oral Roberts Ministry Youll See THat He Had One Of The Greatest Healing Ministries Of All The Healing Ministries. I Knew Someone Who In This Time Was Very Close To Him And God Specifically Told Oral Roberts He Would Not Share His Glory And To Not Touch The Silver Or Gold. There Is No Doubt That At One Time He Was Used Of God, And Somewhere Along The Way It Seems As If He Erred, But The Bible Still Says Touch Not Mine Anointed And Do My Prophets No Harm. He Will Stand Before The Same God As Each And Every Person Who Reads This. Let Us Be Careful That We Err Not By Speaking Against Him. I Pray He Is Right With God Before He Leaves This Walk Of Life.

[heartfelt (heartfelt)]

I Read A Few Of The Comments Posted And If You Will Look Back On Oral Roberts Ministry Youll See THat He Had One Of The Greatest Healing Ministries Of All The Healing Ministries. I Knew Someone Who In This Time Was Very Close To Him And God Specifically Told Oral Roberts He Would Not Share His Glory And To Not Touch The Silver Or Gold. There Is No Doubt That At One Time He Was Used Of God, And Somewhere Along The Way It Seems As If He Erred, But The Bible Still Says Touch Not Mine Anointed And Do My Prophets No Harm. He Will Stand Before The Same God As Each And Every Person Who Reads This. Let Us Be Careful That We Err Not By Speaking Against Him. I Pray He Is Right With God Before He Leaves This Walk Of Life.

[marta (marta)]

RE: But The Bible Still Says Touch Not Mine Anointed And Do My Prophets No Harm.

The bible also says that ALL who are in Christ are HIS annointed. Not just a select few as in OT times.

2 Corinthians 1: 21-22 Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God; who also sealed us, and gave [us] the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

And the bible says if a man claims to be speaking for God and what he says does not come to pass, then he has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

[heartfelt (heartfelt)]

Even After Saul Tried To Hunt David Down To Kill Him ,When David Got Close Enough To Saul ThatHe Could Have Killed Him, He Told Sauls Men You All Ought To Be Killed For Even Letting Me Get Close Enough To Gods Anointing To Kill Him(Paraphrased).The Gifts And Callings Of God Are Without Repentence.Once A Person Has Ever Been Highly Used Of, Im Fearful To Say Anything Against Them. Touch Not Mine Anointed And Do My Prophets No Harm Still Is The Word Of God. If He Has Erred God Will Judge!

[marta (marta)]

Is someone trying to kill him?

God appointed Saul king.

God appointed Jesus OUR King.

Obviously, Paul the apostle did not have a problem with pointing out false teachers. He also gave us instructions to expose and rebuke wrong-doing in the church.

Jesus also had no problem pointing out the hypocricy of the religious leaders of His day.

Maybe your intentions are good, but I think you are totally misusing scripture with this "touch not my annointed" stuff. It just doesn't apply here.

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

A lot of the begging for money is a lack of faith for God to provide for the finances. It is sad but you know, they used to teach faith - the faith message of the Bible. Now they are off onto "begathons" that tell you to give until it hurts.

The problem with the ministeries begging for money like they do is that they get in over their heads and then have to go on the air to beg for money so that their "faith" ministry can stay on the air.

Most, if not all, of these TV preachers cannot trust God for their financial needs. You wonder if God is guiding them into these ventures.

I heard one radio minister, who many of you would recognize, mention that there were some who complained that all he did was beg for money. He then quotes James 4, I believe, that says, "You have not because you ask not." You wonder how low these people will stoop to keep their ministries on the air.

Mark Scaliotti

[caspian (caspian)]

Oh my Gosh. I almost have to laugh when I read this.
I mean..for real- um, wasn't it in the Bible that the pharisees went around and judged and criticized men of God- I think so. Now, I'm sure one of you perfect bible scholars are going to throw it in my face about the Jesus/Temple/money changers/ table throwing story in the Bible. Well, there. I brought it up to deny you the weird sense of satisfaction you'll get. Anyways- I think you're missing the point.

Do you even know the interworkings of this ministry? Do you know the personal sacrifices given by these people to share the gospel? ( wait- insert witty comment about how you think they're just out to get money here...) Do you not think they could have made more money in a different industry- without becoming the scorn of alot of Christians who think its their job to be God?

Have you ever stood on the stage of a foreign country when Mr. Roberts gives an altar call- in a country overridden with black magic, witchcraft and disease- and seen thousands of people give their life to the Lord? - with the word "money" not anywhere in the conversation? - have you ever seen the little boy who was mute speak? have you been 3 feet away from a woman who had medical records of a huge tumor on her neck the day before miraculously healed-and entire villages of beautiful people give their lives to the Lord because of that sign? while mr. Roberts weeps and gives all the glory to God?

funny. becuase I have.
and i've never been so inspired to give my entire life to share the gospel to see hurting people helped.

granted-it takes money to do these things, I'm not negating that- but that's not the point- or the focus. You see only one side.

what personal experience do you have to say that things are corrupt- other than some bitter people's writings. I'm not saying that this ministry is without fault- I am saying that you're missing the point of the ministry.

when you get there...why don't you ask all the people in heaven who were affected by this ministry how they feel..

[marta (marta)]

RE: I mean..for real- um, wasn't it in the Bible that the pharisees went around and judged and criticized men of God- I think so.

Uhhh, actually the Pharisees were the religious leaders who used religion tradition to put heavy burdens on those who were seeking God thereby preventing them from having a closer relationship with God.

Try reading some of the rebukes Jesus spoke against them and you might see that they still apply to SOME of our church leaders today.

And yes, Jesus turned over the money changers tables at the temple. Because they were making a profit off those who were coming to the temple to worship God. Obviously, this was something that Jesus was not happy about.

So maybe you're the one missing the point.

[exposer (exposer)]

Beware, he is a false prophet using the pretense of the gospel for filthy lucre's sake!

Beware of those who would manipulate you and use mesmerism, hypnotism, and manipulative speech. This is not of God!

Do not look into the eyes of evil manipulators!!! Look to the Word of God!

[methuselah (methuselah)]

I share the sentiments of a number of people above who are saddened by what had happened to Oral Roberts. I really love reading about the great revivals of the past and the men of God who achieved great things for the kingdom. The sad reality that we must face is that many ministers are going after the prosperity gospel thing. No one who remembers the tent meetings of many years ago with fond memories would usually speak negetively of Oral Roberts without good reason. The truth of the matter is that when you have such a publicly visable ministry, your testimony and teaching will influence millions. Sad though it is we have to be brutaly honest here. The prosperity gospel he is now preaching is a perversion of the scriptures and is mammon centred not Christ centred.
ps : If you would like to know about the greatest prosperity preacher the world has ever heard you can find his sermon on blessing in the gospel of Matthew chapter 5. It gives such a sharp contrast to the type of prosperity that people are preaching about today and when I read it, it revealed the prosperity teachings of Hinn, Copeland, Roberts ect in their true light.

[trentwoodard (trentwoodard)]

Speaking of revivals and men of the past....One of the most influential men in history who began the pentacostal revivals in this country was a man whose name was Charles Parham. You don't hear much about him because he preached the truth concerning Israel. A long forgotten truth and a long forgotten man.

http://www.truthinhistory.org/Parham.htm

[methuselah (methuselah)]

Parham was a powerful man of God who worked with someone whose name I think was william Seymour if I remeber correctly. Anyway Parham was dead against this black man having church services with white people. Parham opposed him after that for racial reasons. Parham faded from the scene while Seymour went on to be one of the most famous pentecostals in history. That says it all.

[trentwoodard (trentwoodard)]

You guys always know how to come along and copy what we do. You are the great pretenders. Had you guys never been brought here and seen such a man as Parham and been around them, you would have never been able to do so, you would still be in your native land running around naked with no written vocabulary drawing stick figures in the mud and trying to figure out different ways to use elephant dung for hair grease.

[tpfkasof (tpfkasof)]

TO ANYONE WHO TAKES "PASTOR" TRENT WOODARD SERIOUSLY: Here is a PICTURE (http://69.49.253.208/images/Trent-2%20.JPG) of him in his neo-nazi costume (or is it a "Christian soldier" suit?) ~

Now, honestly, would you buy a religious philosophy - or even a used car - from this man?

[trentwoodard (trentwoodard)]

tpfkqwertyuiopasdfghj,

My mission is to get people to look to Christ for who He really is NOT try to get them to look at me, which seems to be YOUR mission.
But thanks for the free advertisement anyway.

I put "my" in quotes because of yours and others futile accusations in saying it is "my" message. It is NOT <my> message but the message of the gospel which Yahshua preached and of the entire Bible.

I preach a gospel of love for Yahweh and His People and a hatred for anti-christs and enemies of righteousness which is rightfully it's counterpart.

It is funny that you consider me such a threat. If what I said was complete BS people would not even give it the time of day. But the things I say seem to stir up every single person out there in one way or another. Why do YOU hate me...because I tell you the truth?


http://www.covenantchurchofyahweh.com

[tpfkasof (tpfkasof)]

<font color="0000ff">"My mission is to get people to look to Christ for who He really is NOT try to get them to look at me, which seems to be YOUR mission."</font>

- I want people to look at you, because (one picture being worth a thousand words-) if they really look, then they'll really see who you really are and what you really represent.

<font color="0000ff">"But thanks for the free advertisement anyway."</font>

- No problem. It's "free" all right, but don't you know the difference between an advert and an exposé?

<font color="0000ff">"I put 'my' in quotes because of yours and others futile accusations in saying it is 'my' message. It is NOT <my> message but the message of the gospel which Yahshua preached and of the entire Bible."</font>

- I never said that it's "your" message. I'm not yet certain just whose message it is, but I suspect you are copy-and-pasting the writings of someone else, and posting them here without attribution. Can you say "p-l-a-g-i-a-r-i-s-m"? - I didn't think you could...

What I am certain of, however, is that it isn't the voice of "Yahweh" or "Yahshua" that I hear when you speak.

<font color="0000ff">"I preach a gospel of love for Yahweh and His People and a hatred for anti-christs and enemies of righteousness which is rightfully it's counterpart."</font>

- Not only is this statement false, it claims an impossibility. Just as light is the absence of darkness, love is the absence of hate, not its counterpart. You can have one or the other, but not both together. (And who anointed you the guardian of righteousness and the elector of "His People"?)

<font color="0000ff">"It is funny that you consider me such a threat."</font>

- I consider the ideas you promote a threat, because I have seen what can happen when such a "philosophy" gets a foothold in popular consciousness and people who believe in it gain political power. I consider you a threat in the way that I would someone who is afflicted with a contagious illness.

<font color="0000ff">"If what I said was complete BS people would not even give it the time of day. But the things I say seem to stir up every single person out there in one way or another."</font>

- Here and there, scattered throughout what you say, there is a grain of truth, so it isn't complete BS. That's how clever propaganda is manufactured. But I think the reason people "give it the time of day" is the same reason people slow down and gawk at roadway accidents.

<font color="0000ff">"Why do YOU hate me...because I tell you the truth?"</font>

- I don't hate you, Trent. I rebuke you, because I love the truth.

[caspian (caspian)]

wow. well...oru rocks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[trentwoodard (trentwoodard)]

You, nor anyone else has yet to disprove ANYTHING that I have said concerning scripture.
Your feeble attempts to discredit me are petty and unfounded.

PS. Thanks for helping me spread the message!

[trentwoodard (trentwoodard)]

TP wrote: I want people to look at you, because (one picture being worth a thousand words-) if they really look, then they'll really see who you really are and what you really represent.

Haha, that is sooo funny that you have this deep understanding as to what I represent...LOL

I come right out and state my beliefs VERY plainly, there is no smoke and mirrors here.

Glad you liked the pic, as it shows who I REALLY am!

[caspian (caspian)]

ORU IS AMAZING! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bob_o_link (bob_o_link)]

{<font color="0077aa"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size="+1">Howdy there Y'all,

ORU is one o the best universities fer many reasons in the world. My secretary graduated from there an she is a real interestin' gal.

We have visited there an its a wonder. Its a place where a bunch of major international ministries were founded by graduates and the graduates also work in soul winning and very special projects an the like.

Oral Roberts has made some decisions that neither you nor I would an may be he should not have airbrushed jewelry out an all that...but he ain't all that ORU is. There's a lot to it. Good things, an lastin' things.

They have a great basketball team too that wins a lot championships. Look a little deeper those of ya that have an issue with it, ya might like what ya find an figur out how God sure does work through it.

Did ya know that there is documentation on the miracles that really do happen...the healin's on Richard's TV show? Yep, its true. Medical documentation.

Caspian is right...ORU is an amazing place fer lots o reasons...an the right ones.

Bye Bye</font></font></font>}

[luke418 (luke418)]

bob...
thanks for the good report...i have attended oru and the place is great. the Holy Spirit is welcome on the campus...keep up the good work!

[bob_o_link (bob_o_link)]

<font color="0077aa"><font face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Howdy luke418!

Yer welcome.
I could of said it a bit better I had jest woke up. But its a truth.
ORU is one of the best Universities in the world. It ain't perfect an neither is the Roberts.

Neither am I nor no one I know.
The Lord...He is.
He has done...is doing...
an will do great things...unique things...
an true significant small things in cities...families...nations...churches...and vocations through the ministry...
an willing submission to Him...
in the programs at ORU...
an the people that graduate from there.

What was yer major? Did ya know Prof. Hultgren?
Which church did ya attend in Tulsa?

Thats about all fer now.
You keep up the good work to now!!!

I am busy gettin' ready fer the comin' of the Lord.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif
I think I better go repent...
an fulfill my vows.

Bye Bye</font></font>

[psalm5613 (psalm5613)]

“The decline that occurred after Philadelphia during the Laodicean period was a direct result of my waves of attack in the climate of society in general, in the political arena, in the educational systems, but primarily in the homes and in the churches. My focus was to disarm parents and preachers.”

Lucifer smiled, his voice softening as he recalled those days long gone by.

“I remember when we launched our first major campaign of Laocidea, around the turn of the twentieth century. Dibbah, my general of propaganda, laid out a masterful plan, with my help of course, to tear down the nations and to destroy the hearts of people through a systematic destruction in the home and in the churches, with a primary focus on the preachers. Quietly and methodically, we slipped into the inner circles of his churches, into the great denominations, and got close to the greatest preachers and theologians.

“We crept in unaware, for the shepherds of the flocks were asleep in their pulpits. We brought with us damnable heresies and applied them quietly and gently. Many Christian preachers, faced with dwindling numbers and a changing social climate, embraced our plan and radically transformed their churches into dens of heresy and iniquity. From the pulpit, my doctrines of demons trickled down to those in the pews. The mindless, undiscerning Christians embraced this neo-truth with vigor. Those believers that held close to the literal interpretation of his Bible and operated in the role of the noble-minded Berean, rejected it, causing more strife and division in an already beleaguered church.

“Consider this simple example: Early in the twenty-first century, the Presbyterian USA church brought to a vote whether there were other paths to salvation beyond the Christ. Wonderful! In another example, a Methodist church allowed my most honorable Reverend Sun Myung Moon to speak in its pulpit. The Methodist preacher praised Reverend Moon as being used greatly by God. Here, let me give you a quote from that minister: ‘What impresses me so much about Rev. Moon is that he’s truly on the battlefield for our Lord. He’s truly a gift from God to bring people together.’* I find this particularly appealing, considering that Moon considers himself to be the chosen one to finish the work of the Messiah.”

My thoughts wafted through several portions of Scripture that pointed to those very activities: to the lukewarm attitude of the church; the rise of heresy and apostasy within the church; the doctrines of demons that would permeate the earth; and the rise of those having the spirit of antichrist, laying claim to being the Messiah.

“We had such wonderful success that the encroachment of my kingdom across the boundaries of his forced him to intervene again, with the Rapture. He rescued his walking wounded from the field of disobedience, rebellion and apostasy.”

“A victory for the Lord,” I stated.

“You undoubtedly believe that. However, he was not the victor, I was,” Lucifer replied. “I had him on the ropes. He had to snatch his people away before I swallowed them whole.”

I didn’t respond. The delusion of the dark one runs deep.

“So many are in hell right now because they were not challenged by their preachers…or, should I say, my preachers. Those weak-kneed, liberal preachers succumbed to the will of the people, and turned out sermon after sermon of a social gospel. They turned their backs on the cardinal tenants of the Christian faith. They defiled their office by turning their backs on the primary duties. Instead of preachers and shepherds, they became hirelings, paid by me. I loved them all.”

He whipped his head around to look at me directly.

“Few men in those last days of Laodicea stood as those during Philadelphia. Few dared to proclaim Yahweh’s word as Edwards did in 1741.”

“Jonathan Edwards?” I asked.

From "Interview with Lucifer" by Rollin Miller
www.interviewwithlucifer.com (http://www.interviewwithlucifer.com)
rollin@interviewwithlucifer.com
1 Corinthians 1:23

[luke418 (luke418)]

very eloquent but what has that got to do with the subject...

[alphaomega (alphaomega)]

In regards to what..


trentwoodard (trentwoodard)

Speaking of revivals and men of the past....One of the most influential men in history who began the pentacostal revivals in this country was a man whose name was Charles Parham. You don't hear much about him because he preached the truth concerning Israel. A long forgotten truth and a long forgotten man.

http://www.truthinhistory.org/Parham.htm

methuselah (methuselah)

Parham was a powerful man of God who worked with someone whose name I think was william Seymour if I remeber correctly. Anyway Parham was dead against this black man having church services with white people. Parham opposed him after that for racial reasons. Parham faded from the scene while Seymour went on to be one of the most famous pentecostals in history. That says it all.

-----------------------

Here is a page I started on Charles Parham:
http://gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/charlesparham/charlesparham.html

This man was anything but a servant of Christ, another false prophet who was charged with sodomy by the lawcourts. You are gullible if you are sucked in by this man.

[alphaomega (alphaomega)]

Oral Roberts Could Not Heal His Grandchild,
Even With The Help of Kenneth Hagin

Within a few hours after his birth, doctors discovered the child was having difficulty breathing. The news, Evelyn recalled, `just tore Oral to pieces.' For over thirty hours, while doctors fought to save the baby, Oral, Richard, and others prayed. Lindsay was wheeled up to the baby's side to pray; Kenneth Hagin and his wife, and other ministers, came to pray for healing. When Richard Oral finally died, on January 19, it `devastated Oral.' He called it the worst tragedy of his scarred life. `I think' Evelyn reflected, `because he felt there was so much healing power in that room that they could have healed a thousand people ... But he said there was something in that baby and he got it as far as the head and it would not leave ... Some obstacle would not leave. It was stubborn.'
Oral Roberts: An American Life, by David Edwin Harrell, Jr., Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press

Oral Roberts Could Not Heal Himself

Religion Today (3-2-99) reported the following.
Oral Roberts is recuperating from a mild heart attack. The Tulsa, Okla.-based evangelist has been at Hoag Memorial Hospital Presbyterian in Newport Beach, Calif., since having an angioplasty procedure to clear a primary artery two weeks ago, the Associated Press said. "We hope he will be up and going soon," his family said in a Feb. 28 statement. The family did not release news of his illness earlier because they wanted Roberts to be able to recuperate in peace. "He has been inundated with personal phone calls," a hospital spokesperson said.
SOURCE: Plains Baptist Challenger, Tabernacle Baptist Church, www.llano.net/baptist/nv903.htm (http://www.llano.net/baptist/nv903.htm)

[alphaomega (alphaomega)]

Oral Granville Roberts
Jan24 1918 - ?

Oral Roberts BioStats and Activities:

http://gospelgrace.com/falseprophets/oralroberts/OralRoberts.html

Oral Roberts healing activities begain when as a yonge boy he was visited by a native shaman medicine man, who supposedly healed him in the hospital, he had a debilitating disease at the time.

Proof that even satans servants can bring false healings. Pharoahs magicians are all over the place today.

[zealous4 (zealous4)]

I think your information is wrong and I am not comfortable with the use of God's name there bud.
Alpha and Omega are the Names of Jesus not yours.
Should I have a name like Messiah or Jesus or Lamb of God as my poster name?

Richard Roberts has a large collection of fully documented healings verified by physicians. I don't think that a Shaman healed Oral, it was a minister who commanded the disease of tuberculousis to come out of him and it did.

The university is one of the best in the entire world and the students are taught to honor God and preach the Gospel. And they had enough integrity to remove Carlton Pearson from their board of regents if the information on the Carlton thread is accurate.

You can't say that Oral is not a real minister or Christian because he had heart problems at 87 years old. That is so terribly mean and low.

We don't know why some people are healed and some aren't. We don't know why you have to pray for days or months for some and others are instant.
His wife just passed away also, can you show some tact buddy?

How satanic was she that the wind blew her down, she went into a coma and never came out? How are you going to die? I have never heard of a Shaman, which I would have as much as a problem as you with I will check into it.

Oral Roberts and his son have done more with their lives and money than you will ever do. Rejoice with those who build the Kingdom and with those who are humble enough to admit they are wrong when they are and keeping growing in Jesus.

I just heard Oral on Benny Hinn say that he is capable of mistakes and has to re check things with the Lord. Richard Roberts went into sin and came back to the Lord and admitted wrongs in his life and his character and he is a very humble man. What is your purpose for attacking Oral Roberts? Look at your life compared to his.

What does Jesus think of him and you?
Z4

[arron (arron)]

yes that is what i heard a minister prayed for oral roberts and he was healed.. JESUS still is in the healing business

[inkorrekt (inkorrekt)]

It is not how glorious our lives and ministries have been. What matters is how we keep going and how we end the race.Can God speak of Oral, Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey,and Bob Tilton as "Good and Faithful Servants"? Their dictionaries do not seem to have the word "Integrity" at all.

Dr.Ravi Zacharias was a professor in a seminary. He returned from the Amsterdam Billy graham Evangelistic crusade. On the way, he had a desire to reach out to the agnostics. He expressed his desire to his wife that if only they had $50,000, he would start the ministry. His wife told that it was lot of money. Then he gave one year's notice to the /seminary that he would leave his position. His wife was not happy. Then, he spoke at a men's conference. There he asked all the men to pray for direction. He also told them that there was something he could not discuss. While he was leaving his hotel room, someone knocked on his door. There was a man who attended the conference. He said that he began to pray for that unspoken need and the Lord had impressed upon him to give $50,000. Ravi was in shock. Ravi refused. He said, "This is lot of money and I do not want to take it from a stranger". The man said,"God has blessed me and I am a successful businessman. I can handle this". But Ravi declined that offer. He told him that they would wait for 6 months. If that urge was still with him then he would come and see him. 6 months later, the man flew to see Ravi and gave him that money. Ravi accepted this with tears. This is how he started the ministry and he is reaching out to millions of students and Academicians and they are surrendering their lives to Jesus Christ.

Dr. James Dobson has written numerous best sellers. He has donated all the royalty to Focus on the family. He still lives in a condominium, He could buy a mansion and it would be approved. But, he has chosen a simple life. The result is, he has changed the out come of the national election. The man is a very well respected leader for the evangelical christian community.

Apostle Paul was a tent maker. He spent his own money for the ministry. He was the greatest of all the apostles. He never begged for money. He turned the world upside down. Dr.Dobson is doing the same today.

Gospel is free. There is no price. If we are obedient to God and follow Him in every way, God will meet all our needs. But not our greed. Only when we have to satiate our greed, then we will use all gimmicks. Most of the TV preachers except Dr. Stanley, Dr.Jeremiah and Dr. Kennedy do this. The ministers do not have to beg or use any gimmicks if they are sincerely serving God.

Billy Graham was tempted with money decades ago. But, he rebuked Satan to Go away.He has maintained his integrity. Result is that he is reaching out to the most powerful leaders on the earth. He has reached more people than all the evangelists put together.

Yes, today, we need God's judgement on the church especially those TV preachers whose sole aim to roll in "dollars". When Benny Hinn came to Denver, there was a protest. The protestor had a sign."DOLLARS FOR MIRACLES" . YES, ANANIAS AND SAPHIRA FELL DEAD BECAUSE THEY CHEATED GOD. May God have mercy on these Charlatans posing as Ministers of God.

[anonymous15]

These posts have disgusted me. Who are we to judge another's actions? Are any of us perfect in our finances? have any of us made mistakes? Yes, every person poting on this wall has made mistakes. It is no secret that Oral and Richard live extravagant lives. Yet how many of us in their positions wouldn't do the same? They are only human.But they have always given money to charity and have never cheated people out of the money. Every penny they said would be used for a specific purpose has been used for that purpose. Besides, I think it ironic that we so called "Christians" are arguing about another person's intentions. There are a good many verses about judging a man's heart. And I know from first-hand experience that they are legit. There has been documentation of the healings. I personally have seen people get healed- people that I know very well and knew before and after the healings. I have seen the men cry over the lost and hurting. Yes, they have made mistakes, but never has there been more compassionate and inspirational men. Maybe you should stack the number of mistakes made AS MINISTERS with the number of lost reached, people healed,prophesies come to past, lives touched, and see which one tops the other. Besides, it was Oral's wish to see people do BETTER than he. The motto of Oral's University (ORU) is "Raise up your students to hear my voice, to go where my light is dim, where my voice is heard small, and my healing power is not known, even to the uttermost bounds of the earth. Their work will exceed yours, and in this I am well pleased."

[extrabod]

I put my neck on the line in 2005 when I challenged Oral Roberts websites, and other supportive groups such as Michael Reid Ministries here in the UK.

Roberts had clearly prophesied on several Christian TV programmes inc. Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn that a clear manifestation of God's presence would appear over New York before the end of 2005. He hinted that this would presage a remarkable movement of God in 2006.

I was pretty certain it was unlikely that God would do any such thing, and even if he did - he would have no reason to give Oral Roberts prior notice.

So I promised that I would crawl on my hands and knees to Jerusalem or Las Vegas (their choice) if it happened.

Remind me what happened in the end

Do you think Roberts or the Christian TV stations ever apologise for this rubbish.

The man is not just any old charlatan - there are lots of those. He is the single most influential one within the charismatic community and therefore the most dangerous.

[getagrip]

AlphaOmega is also the name of a very good Greek diner in Downers Grove IL..., great waffles, not so good on the baklava if you know what I'm saying.

[extrabod]

Sorry no idea what you are talking about getagrip

[motives]

It seems like nobody on here has any proof -- the very thing Oral and Richard are being attacked for.

What is Oral considered false for? For saying that God would "call him home" if he did not raise 8 million in scholarship money for medical missionaries. ***Who is to say that God didn't say this to Oral??*** It is not against scripture or anything, and he did raise the money. Those who call him false based on this just want a reason to do so.

So the medical center closed soon after -- does this mean God never wanted it built? No, it just points to mistakes by Oral, which he admits to.

Has any one of you skeptics read his biography to get the other side of the coin? Are you even concerned with the truth?

The truth is that there is a room on the campus that has all of the artifacts for the days of the tent crusades INCLUDING THE MEDICAL REPORTS!! Come to the campus and see.

Richard verifies all the miracle stories from his TV show.

Instead of asking where the proof is to Oral and Richard, why aren't some of you asking the same question of your own views. ---Not one case of someone faking a healing at the behest or payment by Oral or Richard has been brought forward. ---

Sure some of the healers are fakes, but use some logic here -- this doesn't mean it is all fake.

And sure, some people think they are healed when they aren't and die or get worse, but does this mean that nobody has been healed?

Oral and Richard are men who have devoted their lives to God. Sure Richard has a big house, but he is never there. He spends his time on campus and on tv and traveling the world preaching the Gospel. Yes, he does preach the Gospel. How do I know? I am one of his students and I watch his TV show. I am not an idiot, I am not a sheep, I scored in the top 10% of the nation in SAT scores and am on academic scholarship. I believe in the power of faith. I believe God wants to heal people. God wants to bless us in order to make us a blessing to others, not for our own gain. The Roberts' teach this.

[billiefan2000]

Scandal brewing at Oral Roberts U.

Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."

Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal.

Richard Roberts is accused of illegal involvement in a local political campaign and lavish spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodeling projects, use of the university jet for his daughter's senior trip to the Bahamas, and a red Mercedes convertible and a Lexus SUV for his wife, Lindsay.

She is accused of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on clothes, awarding nonacademic scholarships to friends of her children and sending scores of text messages on university-issued cell phones to people described in the lawsuit as "underage males."

At a chapel service this week on the 5,300-student campus known for its 60-foot-tall bronze sculpture of praying hands, Roberts said God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail and extortion."

San Antonio televangelist John Hagee, a member of the ORU board of regents, said the university's executive board "is conducting a full and thorough investigation."
Excerpt
http://www.star-telegram.com/462/story/258257.html

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">As long as there exists the likes of the hypocrite poster "motives" above that can't see with the very eyes Christians claim God gave them, there will alway be Jim and Tammy Fay fakers and thieves getting away with it until the <u>authorities</u> "nail them." The Benny Hinn snake charmers; Didn't Benny see a man turn into a snake right in front of his eye in Sudbury Ontario, Canada? Maybe that was O.R who turned into a snake before his very eyes. It was Benny in a Florida court, on the witness stand admitting he took $300,000 from one pyramid fraud scheme and $400,000 from another. Par for the "Christian" course.

God supposedly gave you eyes to see and a brain to think, poster "motives". Baptist ministers going to jail fourteen years at a crack, not content manipulating the sheep to heap the collection plates from which to fill their pockets, but going out into the flock as the wolves they are, dressed in sheep's clothing and stealing their follower's entire life savings, their homes and destroying their families with these, I'm sure, God Damned pyramid frauds and Ponzi schemes.

Among all this fraud is millions and millions and millions in fraud, probably the largest fraud ever, curently being perpetrated on farmers all over North America by this Christian fraud artist Arlan Galbraith of Waterloo Ontario Canada.

This is one of the biggest in history, and in the name of God, and currently going through the Mennonite, Amish and Hutterite communities. They apparently don't even know what a Ponzi schemes is.

Individually these farmers and their banks are being taken for 50 thousand, $200,000, 1/2 a million, and in the case of the Hutterites, apparently a million, this fraud being run by a so-called "godly man" by the name of Arlan Galbraith from Waterloo Ontario Canada. This fraud is being spread through the farm communities from new York all the way to Texas.</font> cont.....

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">This is what you new Christian freaks are all about. And then you ask, <font color="aa00aa">where's the proof???</font> Open your right wing, narrow-minded, fascist, bigoted eyes, "motives" and the rest of you: Read the Bible, and what Jesus reputedly did to money changers in the Temple.

You have that "weeping wimp" selling vitamins on TV, Sunday morning. Doesnt he and his sardonicly smiling and nodding wife, (looks like your head going to fall off) spend all week on TV as it is flogging vitamins? And here he is; he and his wife, Sunday morning, still flogging vitamins.

I suppose the rationale for this,can be found in the Bible also: They're healing the the masses on Sunday with vitamins, and was it not Jesus himself who reputedly said, when criticized for performing miracles on Sunday, <font color="aa00aa">"Who among you wouldn't help your a$$ out of the ditch on the Sabath."</font> Of course he wasn't charging humongous "coin" for the healing service.

Here Chistians, check it out.

http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=202453&amp;whichpage=1

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/39999.html?1191303195

http://www.crimebustersnow.com/

dave

David J. Thornton

President CrimeBustersNow
World-Wide Fraud Investigations
Consultants in International
Money Laundering Fraud
Telemarketing Scams
Counterfeit Goods
Pyramid &amp; Ponzi Schemes
Oakville, Ontario
www.crimebustersnow.com (http://www.crimebustersnow.com)
905-963-3389 24/7 calls returned toll free
in North America and countries world-wide</font>

[mcmstaff78]

Gatordave,

Please, don't lump all those who support and/or defend these frauds and hucksters as "Christians". These are not Christians, they only think they are. They do, in fact, profess "another Gospel", as the Apostle Paul would say, one that is an upside-down, bizarro version of the true Gospel. Unfortunately, in America they are the most visible seeing as how they spend a vast majority of their "gifts" on "reaching out" to get more "gifts" via TV and other media. This makes it seem as if they truly are representative of the Christian faith. They are not. They represent themselves.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">I wrote..... "<font color="aa00aa">This is what you <u>New</u> Christian freaks are all about."</font> Gather some comprehension skills. If you you don't fit the discription then their's reason to get defensive. But unfortunately that is the majority of those who profess to be Christian today. Seems to me the Bible even mentions that in the latter day.

Now, I see you have included absolutely no comment on the horror stories above. It's like it just doesn't matter!!! So what category of Christian do you think I would tend to believe you are.

I don't see anything coming back like, if all of that is true that is really horrible Dave. What about the women and children he's conned into working this scam. Is there anything we can do to stop this? No nothing like that. Just the same own narrow-minded crap and church basement gossip, poster "mcmstaff."

The ode to Christian Affinity Pyramid Fraud

<font color="aa00aa">Go ahead and hate your neighbour.
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
You can do it in the name of heaven.
And justify it in the end.
But, there won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgment day.
On the bloody morning after
One tin soldier rides away.</font>

Something to ponder</font>

dave}

[mcmstaff78]

Gator, you paint with too broad a brush. Don't jump to conclusions that because I didn't meet some unspoken requirements of yours to be taken seriously I one of the "freaks" you refer to. As for communication skills, check out your first post above where you do not modify "Christian" with "new".

Have a great day, Dave.

[mcmstaff78]

BTW, there is another sub-thread on the "Religious Leaders/Organizational Leaders" etc., topic that deals with this stuff where I have ripped RR specifically, and this whole baloney, bizarro "gospel" in general.

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">I didn't <font color="aa00aa">"jump to any conclusions";</font> poster "mcmstaff78" that is what “professed Christian bigots" do. THE <u>“PROFESSED CHRISTIAN - BIGOTS”</u> not the real Christians; understand that writing? Do you not see a difference?

I wrote clearly <font color="aa00aa">“As long as there exists the likes of the hypocrite poster "motives" above that can't see with the very eyes Christians claim God gave them, there will alway (sic) be Jim and Tammy Fay fakers."</font>

That’s the likes of the poster …. "mcmstaff78”; not everyone who professes to be a Christian. Do you get it yet?!!!

And now, this is why I see you as I do. Still not one word about this horrible fraud destroying people lives, particularly young people. Always more concerned about semantics rather than the horrors happening to your brothers and sisters.

These frauds are perpetrated by many who call themselves Christian and ignored by the vast, vast, majority of those who call themselves Christian as well as what appears to be, real Christians.

That is what disgusts me about most people who profess to be Christians; that does not paint all with the same brush, just most. BTW how many were Godly, in the whole of Sodom and Gomorrah? Even Lot's own wife turned on him and what he believed.

You only confirm what I feel and espouse, that again, you dislike the messenger so much, so to hell with the message.

There are farmers all over North America being ripped off for millions and millions in probably the biggest Ponzi scheme in decades and not a word addressing that issue. And these frauds run rampant in the church.

BTW, just because, as you write.... <font color="aa00aa">"there is another sub-thread on the "Religious Leaders/Organizational Leaders" etc., topic that deals with this stuff where I have ripped RR specifically, and this whole baloney, bizarro "gospel" in general"</font>... the same consistant attitude doesn't show on this thread.

dave</font>

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa"> And poster "anonymous15" you should look seriously at the word "scammer". Money that isn't yours, "ear marked" for another purpose, converted to your own use, is a criminal offense, not just morally wrong.

10's of thousands for a jet plane ride for bunch of kids taken out of church donations, if true, can't be condoned by anyone, even the likes of you unless of copurse, you are a totally immoral, "brainwashed", sheep, or a disgusting "on the take" scammer yourself.

dave
www.crimebustersnow.com (http://www.crimebustersnow.com) 905-963-3389
fighting fraud 24/7</font>

[trsrinheaven]

Oral Roberts Speaks Out Clears Up Misinformation About Allegations

Oral Roberts, 89 spoke from his home in California as his son, Richard, and daughter-in-law, Lindsay, sat on Larry King's set in New York.

Richard Roberts, the Tulsa, Okla., university's president, told King he never asked students to work on a mayoral campaign there. The fired professors allege up to 50 students worked for one candidate in what may have been a violation of state and federal law because of the university's nonprofit status.

"I didn't ask or coerce anybody to do that," Richard Roberts said.

The younger Roberts also said a Bahamas trip that the professors describe as his daughter's senior vacation was a business trip, and that his daughter and others accompanied him as part of a university recruiting effort.

The couple also said many of the remodeling projects on their university-owned home _ the professors allege were 11 such projects in 14 years _ were because of black mold and hail damage.

"I have not done anything wrong," Richard Roberts said. "I can't say how much this has hurt my family."
Public Records show plaintiffs are pergurers, lied to the IRS, and have ulterior motives of money for lawsuit.

"Tim Brooker, and his wife are the main professors who filed the lawsuit, state that they are not sure if the allegations in the documents they have are even true."

The IRs investigation where Tim Brooker accepted 100% responsibility was in 2006. He was fired in 2007. He states in his lawsuit that as soon as he found out about the plan to involve students in the mayoral campaign he said no, it was against 501c3. From the beginning. He is responsible for his own actions. He is a professor of government, knew it was wrong and did it anyway. He didn't seem to have a problem with any cover up, (his own actions included)IF THERE WAS ONE, until after he was fired and lost out on $18k + in lost wages.

There are many problems with the lawsuit. I am very curious to see if this Richard Roberts/ Oral Roberts University lawsuit will even hold up, <u>it reads more like a libel suit than a "wrongful terminated" suit, and seems as if it was motivated to inspire rumors, controversy, and disgrace rather than win an actual wrongful termination.</u> The amount of slanderous statements is astounding, and I wonder legally how that will work for the plaintiffs.
In fact, one of the plaintiffs, Tim Brooker, admits that he lied to the Internal Revenue Service in his own summation of the lawsuit! There was very little fact regarding the rules surrounding Tim Brooker's terms of employment, as he worked at Oral Roberts University for 7 years, and his wife 3.
I was especially amused at the statement referring to how Paulita Brooker was "lured" to her position at ORU. Wow, lured into a position as a professor, how weak willed she must be. Just how, pray tell was she "lured"?

Oral Roberts University is the only Spirit Filled University in the country that is accredited and has earned its reputation of being a quality school. No wants to see that lost or the students hurt.

Richard Roberts has stated that the lawsuit is only about money, which wouldn't surprise me. <u>The plaintiffs are seeking financial damages. </u>

[mcmstaff78]

Gator, you're a pretty angry man. You do jump to conclusions based on your pre-conceptions - that pretty much defines "bigotry", don't you think? You really need to get a grip and realize one post doesn't, and can't, tell you everything you need to know to pass judgment on someone else. If it did, well, I would feel as sorry for you as I do the people caught up in the lies of Richard Roberts and his ilk.

Later, gator!

[john_r_jones]

I don't ususally indulge here but...

"Richard Roberts has stated that the lawsuit is only about money". He'd know.

Jonesee

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">What did the Ancient profits rely on in their predictions. There are just certain Tell Tales signs that most ignore. They are clear as a bell. All I can say is I was right about Tammy and Jim Baker two years before it broke. Even Sonny and Cher when everyone I knew insisted they a "rock hard" relationship!

Ayway, time has proven every one of my predictions true including the big pyramid frauds. So, lets see what happens.

dave</font>

[trsrinheaven]

mcmstaff,
With no proof you call people liars.
Whose the angry one here?
You are one big hater. You also show your spots and stripes by only picking on the Holy Spirit full Bible believers.
What a flake.
They say about people like you.

How can you be so stupid and still breathe.

mcmstaff,
So with no proof you call people liars.

Yet you say nothing about the professor and his wife who lied to the IRS in a court proceeding.

You say nothing about these professors suing for money.

Public Records show plaintiffs are pergurers, lied to the IRS, and have ulterior motives of suing for money in their lawsuit.

"Tim Brooker, and his wife are the main professors who filed the lawsuit, state that they are not even sure if the allegations in the unverified documents they have are even true."

The IRs investigation where Tim Brooker accepted 100% responsibility was in 2006.
He was fired in 2007. He states in his lawsuit that as soon as he found out about the plan to involve students in the mayoral campaign he said no, it was against 501c3.

From the beginning. He is responsible for his own actions. He is a professor of government, knew it was wrong and did it anyway.
He didn't seem to have a problem with any cover up he did then, (his own actions included)that is IF THERE WAS ONE, until after he was fired and lost out on $18k + in lost wages he claims.

There are many problems with the lawsuit. I am very curious to see if this Richard Roberts/ Oral Roberts University lawsuit will even hold up, it reads more like a libel suit than a "wrongful terminated" suit, and seems as if it was motivated to inspire rumors, controversy, and disgrace rather than win an actual wrongful termination.

The amount of slanderous statements is astounding, and I wonder legally how that will work for the plaintiffs.
In fact, one of the plaintiffs, Tim Brooker, admits that he lied to the Internal Revenue Service in his own summation of the lawsuit! There was very little fact regarding the rules surrounding Tim Brooker's terms of employment, as he worked at Oral Roberts University for 7 years, and his wife 3.
I was especially amused at the statement referring to how Paulita Brooker was "lured" to her position at ORU. Wow, lured into a position as a professor, how weak willed she must be. Just how, pray tell was she "lured"?

Oral Roberts University is highly accredited and has earned its reputation of being a quality school.

No wants to see that lost or the students hurt.

You obiviously don't care and stand with the rest of the slanderers guilty to proven innocent fools.
WAIT and see what the two sides come out.
You are not very Biblical
The Bible even says in Proverbs and elsewhere. Things look bad when you first hear one side of a slander, but when the other side is finally heard it clears up the truth.

You are the judge, jury and executioner.

HOW EVIL YOU ARE!

[gatordave]

<font color="0077aa">WOW I never professed to being a Christian, but what a mouthful from this professed Christian. like .....<font color="aa00aa">"How can you be so stupid and still breathe."</font>.... love it!!! But don't you truly wish you could still use the white hot pockers, waterboards and "burn 'em at the Christian stake" to deal with your perceived Heretics?

I do look at a few other obvious things you don't even mention; such as a private jet that Harvard doesn't own even one of. I also know only too well, manipulation; dealing every day as I do, with people who are lied to, misled, intimidated and coerced, by people with too much power, money and position.</font>