Point of clarification

[nathan (nathan)]

My parents attended Community Chapel for about 15 years. I remember essentially nothing about the church, except it was big and had lots of red carpet. I have been fascinated with the history of this church, and have read many postings on the CCG message board. There were many events that were alleged to have occured at CCBTC which were apparently unethical, immoral, illegal, unbiblical etc. Someone on the CCG board asked a question about the Kelly Scott incident. I have wondered about the Kelly Scott incident after reading about in newspaper articles. To date no one has clarified what happened, so we are only left to speculate. The same goes with the Jan Cole situation. It would appear the members of the CCG board believe that discussing these matters is digging up 'old wounds' and therefor improper. Never the less, would anyone like to comment on these matters?

-Nathan

[movinon (movinon)]

Hi Nathan,

Your life was affected by CC, therefore I think you have a right to know what happened. I can imagine that the ccg folks reacted just as you described...that's part of why I, and others here, no longer frequent the place.

I can't comment a lot right now cause I'm headin' out for my day, but we'll explain what we know as best we can very soon.

mo

[calv (calv)]

Nathan

I cant tell you much about Jan or Kelly other than the envioment in which they were surrounded. CC was our life everything we did connected back to the body. It was like a really big family. There are those who would say the family has nothing to do with the individual, each personmakes thier own choices. There is a lot we can say about that,
We were also big on blaming "the enemy" for everything. Demons where said to be inside us and our behaviour was really their manifestation. Thru prayer they could be cast out. We needed those who were more"mature" and had "decernment" to lead us thru
deliverance.
Our enviourment was full of faulty thinking, but we thrived on this. It made us feel special. We supported each other and genuinely cared... we really wanted what was being taught. We were true belivers and really wanted to serve the Lord.
The thing is anything outside of this system was looked down upon, it was of the world, not our special faith that we had been called to. We will try to paint an acurate picture for you Nathan, the best we can, we really could write a book on these stories alone.
There are a lot of stories that need to be told, to help those like you to understand what your parents and others have gone thru. CC had a huge impact on our lives. It had a huge impact on Jan and Kelly....

[steve (steve)]

Hi Nathan,

It's good to see you here.

You are probably familiar enough with the details that all are agreed upon concerning each incident, but I will briefly sketch them again for reference. Both incidents occurred during the "connection era" of the Chapel from 1985-1988.

JC was in a troubled marriage. She left her husband one day, taking her young daughter who was around five years old. They ended up in a motel in Oregon where JC drowned her daughter in the bathtub. She was later quoted as saying something to the effect that she did it so that her daughter would not have to be subject to the demons that were trying to get her. JC did time in a psychiatric institution on the east coast for this crime and is now back in the Seattle area. I have never known her well, but I have met her several times since she's been back. By all appearances she has fully recovered and is now a stable and gracious woman. Her husband was reported to have been having problems with homosexuality since before he got married to her, and that these were the root of their marriage problems; I have heard he eventually did end up living in an openly gay lifestyle in Seattle. I haven't heard anything about him now for many years, however.

I know very little about the Kelly Scott situation other than what I've read on the Chapel board. After suffering from depression for some time, she killed herself during the time that her husband was in a connection, a "spiritual union," with another woman. Some claim the connection had caused her depression to deepen, some claim that she was fine with the connection and even that the connection was a blessing to the household during the time of Kelly's depression.

The controversy in both cases is to what degree these incidents were caused by Chapel teachings and practice. Was the depression that led to Kelly Scott's suicide a direct result of her husband's connection? Was Jan Cole's murder of her daughter a direct result of the Chapel's teaching's about demons? Probably these questions can never be answered by anybody except Kelly and Jan. I myself tend to think that they were not a direct result, but an indirect one. They were more a consequence of the lack of competent, responsible counsel for people who were seriously disturbed for one reason or another to begin with. No one knew what was right any longer, if they ever really did in the first place (as I have come to doubt). The people who were supposed to be faithful shepherds of the flock and good stewards of God's Word weren't. The Chapel in those years had descended, because of its mix of false doctrine and perverse leadership, into a kind of madness which spelt trouble for even the most stable of people. Those who had issues to begin with were bound to be hurt much worse, and they were.

Maybe others here were closer to these situations. They may have further insights. I like what calv had to say. The general environment had a lot to do with it even though a direct link to the teaching about demons or connections cannot be "proven." I doubt if either situation would have gone so far had the couples been members of a normal church.

[steve (steve)]

Nathan,

Here's something else that I remembered just after posting my previous message.

As I said, I never knew Jan well but I was acquainted with her at the Chapel. She was friends of friends of my wife. In fact I think my wife might have worked with her for a short time when they were both employed by the Chapel's Christian school.

It just so happened that I saw Jan at a drugstore in Burien only days before she left her husband. I can't even remember if we said "hi" to each other, or even if she noticed me, but I remember she had a haggard apperance. One could see at glance that she was deeply, deeply troubled. She was turned completely inward. I wish I had known her well enough to say something like "Jan, is anything wrong? Are you OK?" but I didn't. The fact is, I wouldn't have known how to help her anyway. By that time (if I remember correctly, the incident occurred in early 1986), I myself was thoroughly confused about what was happening at the Chapel, what direction to go, or what counsel I could possibly give to others about the whole situation.

[movinon (movinon)]

Hi again Nathan,

I concur with what steve and calv have shared. I was considering your questions this morning after reading your intitial post. It doesn't sound to me that what you are really looking for are gory details of the incidents, but really maybe more of a background understanding of what went wrong at CC that was so serious that it would drive people to commit such irreversible acts of violence against themselves and others.

From your description of your memories of CC, it sounds like you were just a little kid when all of this stuff was going down. Believe me, Nathan, it was difficult for the adults there to understand what happened then, let alone for a little kid to understand, even from the perspective of all of these years having passed.

Personally, aside from the bare bones facts that steve described, things began to get obviously off at CC when deliverence got into full swing. The deliverence "move" was just one more layer in the setup that would eventually culminate in the total destruction of what was CC. I don't know how much you really know about that, but I really do believe that the doctrine of deliverence as practiced at CC was right from pit, because it really screwed people up in regards to their free will and responsibility for their own actions. It messed with their understanding of their free will in that they (we) actually began to think that demons could make us do things we didn't really want to do...after all, people were getting up in front of the church and reading off lists a mile long of all the demons they were getting delivered of! Whew! What a time that was! Everything was a demon and we seemed to be helpless against their subtle infiltrations into our lives. It messed with our understanding of our personal responsibility before God in that we weren't really in charge...demons were at work! As steve said, for those who were already troubled and weak emotionally, this was like feeding them poison...either they would run with it and use it as an excuse to commit more sin, or they would come under such heavy condemnation, hopelessness, and confusion that it literally served to push them over the edge that they were already teetering upon.

I knew Jan Cole, but only indirectly. I didn't know anything about her marriage or her current troubles when she went insane and killed her daughter. But, try to put yourself in the situation that she was in then....her marriage was falling apart, her life was coming unglued, and she was receiving some of the worst counsel that anyone could have been so unfortunate enough to have received. She was already entrenched in the demon theology of CC, and now this other thing (connections) was happening and we were all being told that if we didn't accept this "move" that we had demon spirits and were resisting God. What an unfair trump card for a place to use on their members, a place that should have been protective, encouraging, and enlightening literally became a place where I believe demons were in control for real in many instances.

What Jan did doesn't make any sense to a sane mind because it truly was an act of insanity, that was only perpetuated by her unfortuante circumstances. Acts like this will never be explained or understood logically. None of us will ever know the exact details of why it all really happened, but to try and say that CC and its extremely aberrant teachings had nothing to do with it is to only show one's own inability to comprehend and deal with reality.

As to Kelly Scott....personally, I think that was connection oriented. Maybe she was depressed before it all started, I don't know, but I do know that if someone came into my home and attempted to usurp my position with my mate, regardless of what they said their motives were, I would not take it well at all. When I think of Kelly Scott, I just feel such a sense of overwhelming hopelessness. Her church was telling her it was ok, her husband was telling her it was ok, her husband's concubine was telling her it was ok, but in her heart of hearts, she had to have known that something was very wrong. She must have decided that it was herself that was wrong....how unjust and how aweful! I would not want to be in the shoes of those leaders who will be answering to God for what happened at CC and specifically to people like Kelly Scott.

Both of the incidents you asked about were intricately tied to CC, its doctrines, and its practices. The reason you couldn't get a straight answer on the ccg board was because to answer your questions they would have to take a serious and honest look at things they are still defending to one degree or another. I wasn't surprised by the responses you received.

I hope we have helped you to get a better grip on those tragedies.

mo