Preconnection chapel

[calv (calv)]

If you could go back ... would you?

knowing what you know now?

why?

[steve (steve)]

Calv,

Interesting question.

I would like to go back to the first few times Chapel people "witnessed" to me, and to the first few times I visited the Chapel (both at the Kirkland fellowship and in Burien at the big church).<blockquote><u>Then:</u>
I was completely bowled over by what I saw and heard. I was so ignorant of church history and Christian doctrine that I was easy prey for the seductive "vision" of the Chapel.

<u>Now:</u>
If I could go back, I would know how to detect a false understanding of the Word hiding behind an emotional impact of an experience or message. I would be armed with a good knowledge of signs that would have shown me a church ready to be led into trouble by its doctrine.

I believe that I would be able to open more than a few eyes about what my interlopers told me was "the truth about the Word." As we see on the Chapel board, when somebody stands up to their version of reality they really reveal their true colors. I think that would have happened back then too, had I known enough to firmly counter their doctrinal arguments. Their anger at exposure and their hostility to historic Christian doctrine (not only in regard to "Oneness" but also in regard to speaking in tongues) would have warned me off of them for good, and I would have saved myself at least twenty wasted years.</blockquote>On the other hand, some lessons can be learned only by actually making mistakes. A successful recovery from error is often more valuable, and is remembered more strongly, than never erring in the first place. There probably isn't any other way I could have learned how wrong Chapel-like doctrine is without having actually gone through those years.

(Message edited by steve on December 13, 2005)

[calv (calv)]

While I know its not possible physicaly.... I have gone back....

(does time really exist?)

[steve (steve)]

<font color="0000ff">".... I have gone back.... "</font>

...every time you click on the URL for CCG, right?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[movinon (movinon)]

Wow, Calv, that is a good question.

Well, to find my beloved spouse, I would go through hell and back. Having this person in my life completely outweighs the pain, heartache, and suffering that my cc mistakes have produced. Words cannot express my thankfullness for having this wonderful person as my partner. What an incredible comfort we are to each other.

Putting that aside, I think Steve summed it up well. It would be interesting to go back there and experience my reactions, and their subsequent reactions, to it all from my current perspective, but I certainly wouldn't want to stay there for any length of time. I agree that it would not have taken long for the true colors to emerge if one would have disagreed with the party line in any way. The intense sensitivity to any form of disagreement or criticism that was so apparent in our former pastor was also fostered in all of us as well. We were all pretty intolerant of differing views.

Alas, we learn best from our mistakes, it seems, and I've made enough that I should have learned a lot by now! :-) Yes, I think every time I ever clicked the url for ccg, I was going back in time. I want to move forward from now on.



mo

[calv (calv)]

I was just thinking about time.
My life time... on Gods timetable.... about 15 seconds.
What I know today isn't that far from yesterday....
one click transports me back ;~)

There were a lot of good things in my yesterdays
some of the good times were not healthy.... but fun none the less!

Am I still accountable for what I did yesterday and how it affected others?
If I say im sorry is that enough.... or do I actualy have to agknowlage my behaviour and change it?
What if I didn't know it was wrong then.... but am learning that I might be wrong now?
If im in deception how would I know?

I think with the tecnology we have today... though its impossible to go back physicaly .... we are going back
as we speak and doing what we can, with what we know now!

your right! one click brings you right back to the same old
mindset of yesterday.... fact or fiction?

ct

[calv (calv)]

Speaking of spouses....

This stuff is all very interesting and peculiar thru my wifes eyes... yes she keeps an eye on the board's I post on. We have always talked a lot about life what happened and how our faith played into it.

I think outside perspetives are good! Still its impossible
to understand how "complex" cc was .... but thanks to tecnology others get a glimps into the insanity.

What strikes her the most is the hypocricy .... she asks how can they act like that and still call themselfs christians??? She wasn't raised in a christian home...
her parent are not christians now ... but let me tell ya in spite of thier shortcomings .... they have been christ hand extended to me more than anyone in my life!?!?!?

Churches....can't live with em .... can't live without em!

[onesimus (onesimus)]

Even in my old mindset, I wouldn't have come to CC had I known about DB's Vegas act.

In my current mindset, I would be turned away by the authoritarianism, which wasn't an issue for me when I was young and zealous to learn new things.

Nevertheless, pre-connection Chapel was a place of growth and blessing for me personally. I think a genuine agape love was present among the congregation, which was "twisted" during the "move."

I value the friendships made at the Chapel, and, looking at Scripture and church history, do not see the fleshly excesses and destruction we beheld as unprecedented or unique.

We are to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.

[calv (calv)]

I often wonder where would I be now... if I never went to chapel???

I have to say it was a valuble experiance. I dont hate the chapel, I truely loved it... still do! Thats why it hurt
so much. When you love something it has power. Thats why there is anger. Is anger a bad thing or just an emotion? Is anger a sin? What does anger do to a person?

If I knew then what I know now.... I wouldnt set foot in the place ... I wouldnt have to!!!!
But I would understand those who attended and not be afraid to be a friend.... of course that would be quite a challange now wouldn't it?

[steve (steve)]

Calv,

For myself, I have to say it was never a question of anger. That is, I don't think I was ever angry about my Chapel experience. Hurt, maybe, but hurt in the sense of being shocked and disoriented and confused about what had just happened to me. I never knew Don Barnett well enough to feel personally betrayed by him, and I could see that those among the Chapel leadership whom I knew well - the Bible college teachers and some of the staff members - were just as confused and directionless as I was for a time. I never felt hurt in the sense of being deliberately injured by anybody there, I think mainly because both my wife and I were suspicious of connections from the first and began drawing back from full participation in the Chapel direction at that time.

I said this often on the CCG board, and yet the most common depiction of my motives there is that I am hurt, bitter, and angry. I think this is probably an interesting case of projection - they feel hurt and angry about what I write concerning the Chapel, so they assume I must be feeling that way when I write it. They attribute to me what they feel.

This is not to say that I think hurt and anger are inappropriate reactions to the Chapel. I think others experienced things that justify anger, hurt, and bitterness; and that those emotions need to have an outlet and need to be dealt with. I think those reactions and those emotions are perfectly legitimate - they just aren't what I happen to personally feel, neither at the time nor when I look back now.

[movinon (movinon)]

For several years after leaving cc I was mad to the bone! It took about a year for me to realize how angry I really was (you know, because we weren't ever supposed to be angry as christians...if you were angry then you were automatically in the wrong), then I spent several years being really upset. I felt betrayed by a system that I had been told, - as a young, impressionable, naive christian - to trust, by people who had portrayed themseles as trustworthy, and by friends who abandoned us when we could no longer see things their way. Possibly I was more angry at the lack of love I experienced from people who had only the day before claimed to "love" me. Although, I'm sure the emotion of it all was way more complicated than just that reaction.

It took years to get a decent perspective on cc that wasn't an immediate trigger for a plethora of emotions, anger being only one of them. There are certain aspects of cc, particular memories that stir anger in me now, but absolutely nothing like it was back then. I think I would be worried about myself if certain things didn't make me angry, the foremost of those being the way in which people were used, and still are by many groups with similar ideologies like cc.

Anger is a God-given emotion, put there to protect us from potentially dangerous situations: it's a defense mechanism. I think that it is only a "sin" if we are controlled by it and angry without cause. There was and still is plenty to be angry about in regards to cc, especially if you consider that many are still active proponents of the very thing that destroyed so many lives, emotionally, spiritually, and yes, even physically. Can we deal with these issues and hopefully affect change without letting anger control us? Absolutely! But, like Steve said, when we say things that make others upset, the will often project their own feelings onto those challenging their beliefs and practices, and credit all those emotions they see as negative back upon the challenger.

mo

[steve (steve)]

mo,

I appreciate everything you said. Your reaction may be the better, more common one. In fact, I sometimes think it is a defect in myself that I didn't get angry at the Chapel: while there, I was just a little too reserved in my commitment to it. Therefore I wasn't as affected as most were when it all came apart.

[movinon (movinon)]

Being angry takes up a LOT of energy...I would just as soon not be angry; or maybe it's all in learning how to deal with the emotion of anger that keeps one from experiencing the overwhelming side of it all? I'm glad we are all different about stuff like this. I value the responses of people like yourself, because it gives fiery souls like my own a good perspective on my own responses to things.

mo

[calv (calv)]

Anger

It took awhile to get in touch with my anger. After cc I was numb. Got married.... got stoned....got divorced ...
got counceling.... Got really mad at GOD!!!! Told him what I thought..... then He told me what He thought!
It wasn't easy. I had to forget about cc and everything else and just look at calvin. What was wrong with me??? If I could just get fixed then Id be acceptable and finally be a success!?!?!?

Well its been a long road with a lot of stories. Things dont always go as planed.... never the less life got better. The more I learn the less I know! What I have I could never have earned and it cant be bought. Life is a gift. I dont have control over other people , places and things. But I do have a voice and I do have feelings!

My anger today because of chapel is legitimate and not without grounds. My anger knows what its like to grow up in a abusive christian enviroment. I know what it does to a child and to familys. I know what its like to hide behind a faucaude. I know what its like to be lied to, about, and taken advantage of! I know what happens when a person escapes from thier pain and how many ways that is acomplished and what it does to others. I grew up to become everything I despized. A liar a cheat and a hypocrite. Ive experianced forgiveness. Ive had to look at what Id become and how do I tell my kids. I had to look at my mistakes and take responcabilty for them. I have to own my words and what they do.... words mean things.
Ive learned LIFE ISN'T FAIR! Some people go thru life useing others and living a lie. Even when they are exposed they never face the truth. If they could only see
the pain they cause by thier deception.
Now when they use GOD as a tool to justify thier behaviour.... Im sorry but if I don't get angery something
would be wrong. Does God get angery? Did Jesus get angery? Why is my anger wrong? What is my motive?

When confronted with the truth how do they respond?
Denial? Attcking those who point at the errors and the damage they have so nicely hidden. What really makes me angery is how effective they are at blameing others and justifying themselfs. I don't have to quote scripture
chapter and verse... I know the word .... they taught it to me my whole life. The trouble is what the word says and they do.

[roz (roz)]

I went through a time of anger as well. I had to work through a lot of things. One thing that helped me was getting counseling within months of leaving from a really nice lady who knew nothing about the chapel. But, it was years before I really felt any freedom about this chapter of my past.

Fast forward to present day and I have clearly moved on. From a personal perspective, it has helped me to be involved in a church now. It's actually kind of fun to be involved and use my past as a measuring tool for what's happening today. I don't let anyone bully me into doing anything I don't feel convicted about doing. For a change, it's really liberating to march to the beat of my own drum and still be able to feel like I have a lot to offer to the body of Christ and to the lost.

(I have been able to have leadership position, too, which is a blessing. I have to give credit to my years at the chapel for helping me there. )

I agree with mo - anger takes a lot of energy. I still have anger in my life, but I honestly think it's because of other issues going on with me, and not my past at the chapel.

God is the God of restoration. He can't restore us if we are unwilling to let go of something, be it anything, fill in the blank....we all have issues. Currently, I am dealing with this in a big way due to anger in other areas. I still have issues, yes, and going to church doesn't solve them.

But, back to marching to a new beat... I'm involved in a Bible study of 6 adults from my church. I brought up drinking alcohol with them and was amazed to find out most of them don't have a problem with moderate alcohol consumption. One even came out and said he disagreed with the pastor. He even mentioned he'd discussed it with him and there was no problem.

The body of Christ can come together in a unity of the Spirit even if they don't agree on every little detail. Some of these things, like moderate alcohol consumption aren't worth the energy to get worked up over.

I guess I digressed a little from the main topic...sorry!

[steve (steve)]

Digressions are no problem, Roz. Great posting - thanks for dropping in again to contribute your thoughts.

[movinon (movinon)]

Good thoughts, Calv. Your words reminded me of the lyrics to a U2 song that I particularly like, that goes..."the more you see the less you know, the less find out as you go, I knew much then than I do now..." Honestly, I have found some very seriously solid lyrics in their songs; things I relate to more than most christian music, which I don't listen to any way. :-)

Hi, Roz, good to hear your voice again!

Back to the anger topic...cc was very provoking in its day and can still be so in many, many ways. It has been our post chapel experiences that have deeply hurt us and stir most of the anger that we have to deal with in regards to the damage that hyper religious groups can cause. CC was not a positive experience when examined overall for us, but....it's a crazy world out there and it's filled with a lot of people doing a lot of things in the LORD's name that can justifiably produce honest feelings of anger.

Hey, on a positive note, we are actually going to visit a church this month! Now, everyone pick yourself up off the floor!! :-) I'm actually looking forward to it. :-)

mo

[calv (calv)]

Glad you guys are all here!

I know more people are reading than we know!
For me this fourm isn't a definition of my life and who I am. It is an outlet to speak about something that few people can understand. To voice feeling with a group of peers and get feedback is good! When the feedback turns toxic... what should I do? Am I toxic?
I just want open clear communication where issues are not coverd up and the uncomfortable stuff is pushed aside and forgotten.
This is a really amazing medium! Who would have ever thought that we would all be here able to talk in a setting that is conveniant and (safe???).
Yes caution must be taken on any fourm... there are abusive people out there! If I point the finger I better be prepared to get fingers pointed back! And I am... but Im also human and will make mistakes along the way.
The main thing is I can sit and watch, keep my mouth shut and do nothing... just watch! Thats not a bad thing!
But at some point someone needs to stand up and say what needs to be said. Yes that will cause a reaction but thats how things begin.... Its how it all ends THAT REALLY MATTERS ! I know Ill take a lot of heat but I know I can handel it now... I am secure in who I am and have the support I need to keep me going in the right direction. NO I havent arrived, far from it! But knowing that is what keeps me safe!

I find a lot of good stuff in music too MO! there are a lot of good messages out there and they don't have to wear a christian badge! Its the human race and God sees us all the same! no? We can just get caught up in our own little reality and close the door to so much of the creation.

ct

ps.... good luck on church visit!;~)