The List that Got Me Banned from CCG

[steveb]

One thing which I learned from going back to the CCG board was the reason for which I was banned from posting there. As usual, the reasons are based on a a distorted version of the real situation. However, I do not believe the distortions are deliberate but are rather due to a sincere but misguided devotion to the Chapel theology.

The reason I was banned was for posting this on FactNet a few months back in the topic area I started for a discussion Anti-Trinitarianism (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=252054#POST252054):<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I've started this topic area to warn against teachers who are former members of Community Chapel (or churches that have former Chapel members as teachers) and who are probably teaching anti-Trinitarianism as a result. The ones I currently know of are these:

Earl Thurner - Founded several churches in Hawaii; travels extensively in foreign countries speaking at Pentecostal meetings.

Gordy Haddad - Has founded Olympic Peninsula General Assembly Meetings and School of Theology of Port Angeles, Washington.

Jamie Hanson - Pastors a church named The Faith Center in Yakima, Washington.

Elvin Gladney - Pastors a church in the Central Area of Seattle.

Bob Sackett and Clint somebody (I don't know his last name) are leading "Bible studies" in the south Seattle area that promote an even more extreme form of anti-Trinitarianism than that which used to be taught by the Chapel. They now teach that Jesus is not God (The Chapel, though denying the pre-existence of Christ, did at least say the Father's indwelling of Christ made him God). At one time they were using a book published by a splinter group of The Way International titled One God and One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith by Mark H. Graeser, John A. Lynn and John W. Schoenheit as a resource.

Ed and Vicki Carroll - Are seeking to start a Bible study or church in Illinois.

New Heart Worship Center of Federal Way, Washington - Has many former Community Chapel members as both members and teachers.</font></blockquote>[Continued in next posting...]

[steveb]

[Continued from previous posting...]<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I don't personally know if every one of the above people are teaching anti-Trinitarian theology, but I know most of them are; I would be glad to know that any of them are not. They are of course welcome to post here to say so if I have wrongly linked them to anti-Trinitarianism, and to instead give their testimonies of coming out of it.

I would also like to use this topic area to foster an open discussion of Trinitarianism vs. Anti-Trinitarianism in general. When I first encountered hardened opponents of the Trinity, I buckled way too easily. I was too ignorant of both history and theology - and too attracted by a dynamic movement that advertised itself as preaching a purely Biblical Jesus - to let myself be put off for long merely by the fact (when I learned of it) that it didn't adhere to (as I thought of it at the time) an ancient creed. I should have investigated what Trinitarianism really was for myself instead of letting them tell me what it was. As a means of better educating others, I would like to give others the opportunity here to relate their experiences in learning to appreciate Trinitarian doctrine, especially in the wake of involvement in anti-Trinitarian cults.</font></blockquote>[Continued in next posting...]

[steveb]

Dave Kenady has written of this on the CCG board in the following way,<blockquote><font color="0000ff">[Steve] was banned when he set out to named ministers who are busy spreading the gospel and who happened to have gone to the Chapel. He named them in a long list and warned people against them on FactNet.</font></blockquote>In another posting he added this:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">...the straw that broke the camel's back for me was SB's long list of condemned names of ministers who are actively serving God. Somehow I don't recognize the call of God on someone who thinks it their business to destroy men's ministries.</font></blockquote>My response to this is as follows:

I have no doubt that these men sincerely think they are preaching the gospel. It's just that I myself happen to think, based not only on my experience with the same theology they were taught in their youth at Community Chapel but also upon a later very serious study of that theology in the light of what the Bible really says, that they are teaching a mistaken and very damaging version of it. My objection is to the anti-Trinitarianism they are spreading along with the gospel, an anti-Trinitarianism which in fact alienated me from the gospel for a time and led me into confusion for several years before I regained my footing in the Lord.

Notice also something that Dave Kenady does not mention: I qualified what I said by inviting anyone to correct me if I am wrong and these men are not teaching an anti-Trinitarian form of the gospel. I would be glad to post a public correction to what I've written here if I am wrong.

Further, I do not "think it is my business to destroy men's ministries." I do think it is my business to speak truthfully about what I have personally experienced - in this case a deception stemming from a deceitful handling of the Word.

Therefore, I will continue to warn against Chapel-influenced ministries, and also to add to this list as I monitor the CCG board.

[steveb]

<u>Another reason I will continue to warn against Chapel-influenced ministries:</u>

In contrast to the reasons given for my banishment from the CCG board, which I believe are due simply to Chapelites' unknowingly distorted perception created by the world view they hold to, I noticed some other comments from the moderator, Dave Kenady, on the CCG board this morning when I decide to return to read it that seem to be deliberate slander, in light of the sheer amount I have written about the subjects in question in the past on the CCG board, some of it addressed directly to Dave in response to questions he explicitly addressed to me. Either he didn't even read what I wrote in response to his own questions or he is deliberately misrepresenting me.

I don't know his motives for whichever of those he is doing, but I bear record here that he has falsely represented the content of my Christian faith. He has been misled by his stubborn and misguided defensiveness of Chapel theology into making blatantly dishonest charges against me - charges which would lead the unwary to think that I reject the core teachings of the Bible. This is similar to, and probably a result of, in my opinion, the dishonest way the Chapel imbued all of its followers in regard to Trinitarian, "non-Spirit-filled," or "denominational" Christians. Chapelites really were conditioned to look at them as probably unsaved if they genuinely believed denominational doctrine.

Dave Kenady writes of me, <blockquote><font color="0000ff">[Steve] has rejected UROG, speaking in tongues as the sign of HSB, the present-day operation of the gifts of the Spirit, and the born-again experience.</font></blockquote>It is true that I have rejected UROG; and that I have also rejected speaking in tongues as being the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit for all Christians at all times. It is emphatically not true that I have rejected the gifts of the Holy Spirit or the born again experience. The truth, which I repeatedly stated on the CCG board, is that I have come to believe the Pentecostal definition of these terms are mistaken and Biblically deficient. I think I have come out of a false and misleading view of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and of what it means to be born again, into a much more Biblical, accurate view.

[Continued in the next posting...]

[steveb]

[...continued from the previous posting]

Although I have, sadly, as a Trinitarian believer come to expect personal attacks as routine from ex-Chapelites who remain committed to Chapel theology, Dave Kenady's dishonest accusations admittedly do make me angry because there are probably other people I knew from the Chapel who are now reading the CCG board who will gain a completely wrong impression of my faith today if they take what they read there at face value. Whether he intends them to have that effect or not, his irresponsible and inaccurate words are potentially poisoning the minds of others against me.

Dave Kenady, or anybody else, can search the archives of his own board and see that I have told him repeatedly that his views of what I believe are false. For example, just last autumn, in a posting with a time stamp of 9/4/2005 12:45:00 PM, I wrote to him, <blockquote><font color="0000ff">Where I differ from Pentecostal beliefs is in what the Bible really means by "born again." It doesn't mean an emotional conversion experience caused by an encounter with revivalistic religion but rather means the creation of faith in a person by the Holy Spirit, however that may be experienced, emotional or not.

Further, what I believe about this doesn't have anything to do with why I believe the Chapel was cultic. I believe that conversions produced through manipulative, revivalistic preaching are probably genuine but are shallow and unstable. People who believe they are saved only in that way also tend to get imbued with the self-righteous and judgmental attitude that those who have quietly believed all their lives, and who therefore don't have the same kind of emotional conversion experience as themselves, are probably unsaved.

So the accusation that I don't believe in being born again is false, as should also be obvious from what I've written when the subject has come up in the past.</font></blockquote>[Continued in the next posting...]

[steveb]

[...continued from the previous posting]

In regard to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I have likewise stated my beliefs explicitly, openly, and repeatedly on the CCG board. In a posting dated 4/20/2005 8:42:00 PM, for example, I wrote, <blockquote><font color="0000ff">Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:4, 7, &amp; 30, "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit... But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" The clearly implied answer is no, not all speak in tongues, it is only one gift, one manifestation of the Spirit. The Spirit is given to all in the body, but there are different manifestations of it.</font></blockquote>I've only quoted one example for each of the two topics, but they could easily be multiplied tenfold if I had the time and the space. They conclusively show Dave Kenady, the moderator of the Community Chapel Gathering board, has falsely accused me; his false accusations show in turn, in my opinion, that he is nothing more than a cult apologist who acts not according to his role as a discussion board moderator in the interests of what is true and fair, but only according to the way he can put the cult he is defending in the best possible light and put those who criticize it in the worst possible light. This only serves of course to convince me further of the Chapel's cultishness.

The famous "bond of love" that is supposedly so characteristic among Chapel members even today is a farce - they will turn on you and attempt to rend you in pieces in any way possible when you become disenchanted with the Chapel scene, want to move out of it, and have the temerity to openly write about it.

[calv]

Steve

DAVE"S BOARD!!!! DAVE RULES.... and everyone else agrees!
So there... just proves who is wrong and who is right...
RIGHT?????


You certainly are the "Object" of thier "affection's"
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

[calv]

IT"S a DEMONIC ATTACK!!!!
YOUR MANIFESTING

WE REBUKE THOSE FACT NETERS.....

prway fow youw bwouthers annd sistors
the diss
?gKR0<c demons

Hey thats just the way they were taught to act by the
wittle man wif da pwetty wig....

be vewy vewy quiet.... we are hunting Steve Bworn ....
we know he's hiding in here som waare.... and when we chatch him he will be sowrry.....

[nathan]

Steve:

It is a fascinating process to watch, albeit disturbing as well. It would appear that many on the CCG message board strongly assert they do not want to experience the emotional trauma of having to read your posts, and thus they instructed you to leave the board. Yet, during all of the time periods you have been banned from posting on the CCG board, it is quite apparent some of these same people were/are still reading your postings on the FACTNet message board, but only posting comments or criticisms on the CCG board. The participants on the CCG board who were in favor of your banishment should have stopped reading your postings entirely, because they claim such postings are so offensive, libelous, misrepresenting doctrines and practices of CCBTC that the postings are emotionally traumatic to read. If these people are so traumatized and/or offended by your remarks, why are they still actively monitoring your postings here? Why aren't they celebrating there new found freedom from the dangerous dissentient opinions you are purported to expouse? As you already made clear, anyone is welcome to post on this board in rebuttal to your comments, or anyone else's comments. However, on FACTNet, there is no one deleting postings determined not to be "doctrinally appropriate".

[steveb]

Nathan - I know, I know. Believe me, I know. Community Chapel and its strange little band of followers will probably remain a conundrum to me for the rest of my life. How did I ever end up there among people like that, anyway? Why are they so resistant to change now, after everything they've seen about the Chapel, COA, and the leadership of both places?

[steveb]

Calvin - Elmer Fudd hunting Bugs Bunny - what a scream - the perfect picture of Don Barnett and the dissident. You're a genius.

[calv]

walkin on eggs.....
Ive been watching others try on ccg....
sooner or later it gets messy no matter how nice you are!

[steveb]

They're a little touchy over there right now because RLA is going down, and they're afraid it means they're also going to lose the Bible college tapes and the source of their Bible college diplomas. Looks bad for them, and they know it.

[calv]

it's not all it's cracked up to be!

[steveb]

You can say that again!

[steveb]

Well, I see Dave Kenady, the moderator of the CCG board, did post a partial acknowledgment of my objections to his characterization of my beliefs. I guess it's better than nothing, and it raises him significantly above most of the other participants of his board, but it still revealed he really has made no serious effort to understand any position other than the Chapel's.

He writes<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I'll just let his words stand for the record. It is my own personal opinion, having grown up as a NON-Pentecostal Baptist and believed in the born-again experience in the sense that Steve rejects, that he doesn't believe what born-agains espouse. But thus are the diversities of opinions in the church. As far as the gifts, his statement taken with his current affiliations leave me confused. But I guess that's my problem.</font></blockquote>He's right - his problem is that he was conditioned by the Chapel to reject without thinking, or even really listening, anything other than the Chapel's own teaching as being not really Biblical.

He's also right that I don't believe what modern "born-agains" espouse about being born again. I found by experience that what they espouse is superficial or emotionalistic or (most usually) both. I believe instead what the Bible says about being born again - it's not of man's will but of God's will. Its of water and the Spirit.

And about the spiritual gifts - briefly, I believe very much in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Faith itself is one of those gifts. So are love and hope. In fact, they're the greatest and longest lasting of His gifts - see 1 Corinthians 13. I believe the Bible tells us that they are the essential gifts and that prophecy and tongues were temporary gifts; there are a variety of other, better gifts. As I said in my postings yesterday, the Spirit gives gifts to people as He wills, according to His purposes for edifying the church, not oneself.

[movinon]

It is really sad to hear about the dither everyone is in about losing the tapes from Bible college, as well as DB's teaching tapes. Personally, I think it would be the best thing in the world for all those tapes to be gone; that way, everyone could stop making an idol out of a man who should have never been a leader or teacher, and the screwed up theology of cc will have one less source from which to be promulgated.

mo

[onesimus]

Steve,

For the record, I disagree with your posting of those names as a purported warning to others, although I understand that you not only are concerned about unorthodox theology, but regard it is a primary concern.

Having said that, I do find it amazing that those most eager to banish seem also to be the most obsessed with searching out your every utterance on the net, and then bringing it to CCG. The effect is to have you participating by proxy on a forum from which you are supposedly banned.

I remember feeling the same way about my own participation on CCG when I was banned. Some people - notably Helen - persisted in making comments about me, which I responded to on FACTNet, which they then read and answered on CCG...ah but you had the honor of posting things there that were so completely objectionable as to only generate 100+ responses!

[steveb]

One,

Yes, I've known you disagree with that warning, and on the very nature and validity of "orthodoxy," but it remains to me the most important reason for participating here. It still seems to me to be an obvious and very important lesson to take away from the whole Chapel experience, and it is a matter of conscience with me to not be silenced about it. Today I restated my reasons for this in the thread labeled "Brief Introduction to this Topic" (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=279372#POST279372).