Beer

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

"...no one drinks at any of our parties, most everyone is a dry Xian." - from <u>God, I Thank Thee that I am Not Like Other Men</u>

by JFJ, published by CCG. Used without permission under fair use laws of the United States.

Carrie Nation says: "If you aren't a dry Christian after you read this book, you're all wet!"

[steve26 (steve26)]

I'll drink to that!

You know, Onesimus, one very pleasurable side-effect of returning to Lutheranism is the freedom of being able to sit down with a brother now and then, have a couple of beers, and just relax and enjoy it. In Lutheranism there is no, none, absolutely zero stigma attached to this oldest and simplest of human pleasures. Martin Luther loved drinking beer!

My favorite beer lately has been the Porter brewed by MacMenamins, a micro-brewery up here in the Northwest with several locations in the Seattle area. There's one about three miles from my house and right now I'm thinking we'll have next year's Chapel board dissidents' meeting there. You're invited!

(They don't have a smiley with a beer mug, so just imagine one being right here.)

[calv (calv)]

"Mmmm Beeer!!! " Homer Simpson

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Steve,

Dissidents at the micro-brewery sounds great!

Presently, I have no idea if we can make it to Seattle next year.

In case we do, is there any way the Dissidents meeting could be before or after the CCG one?

Just in case CCG takes a vote on whether I should be invited and I bribe enough people with free beer to vote me in!

You might wonder why I would want to go to CCG's gathering. Two reasons:

*There are people there I like and respect.

*I'd like to see if some people would say to my face what they say about me online.

Hmmm. Seems like somebody challenged you along those lines recently.

[steve26 (steve26)]

<font color="0000ff">In case we do, is there any way the Dissidents meeting could be before or after the CCG one?</font>

No problem whatsoever - in fact we're having one every couple of weeks anyway!

[calv (calv)]

I drink and I VOTE!!!!

vote early and drink often!

(Message edited by calv on September 08, 2005)

[calv (calv)]

or
drink early and vote often

[movinon (movinon)]

Speaking of beer...I was at Costco the other day buying a case of beer and when I reached for the top case (you know the Co...they have lots of stuff stacked really high), I accidentally pulled over four cases of beer and they all broke on the floor! Yes, I was emberrassed, but not because I now smelled like a brewery...only because I broke all that good beer!

[calv (calv)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Calv,

That was post #666 for you.

You aren't really Arnold Shortsnsneakers are you?

[calv (calv)]

I"LL BE BACK!!!

[calv (calv)]

I dont know... the elections not over yet! will he win or will he lose? well have a great big ol party any way....
those crazy guys over on that crazy site.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif}http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[calv (calv)]

I got to hook up with Steve B, last night for a couple porters. Guess what we talked about! Our religious belifs and why we felt that way. I find it eye opening,
as I try to define what I belive, and why I belive it. I think
I have changed so much... yet I have always known God. I felt his spirit as a child,and through out my life, in a variety of places. I have always been told others definition of him ... but its time for me to find my definition.
We touched on the power of emotion .... that is a very powerful tool. Intellect tells, Emotion sells !
How has emotion directed things in your life?

[movinon (movinon)]

Well, calv, it (emotion) directed my life a LOT up until about 5 years ago; which is probably why we found ourselves mixed up with so many groups of people all struggling to find their way through the post-chapel haze.

The more I've moved away from emotion and moved toward a more rational approach to much of this stuff, the more I see that a healthy dose of skepticism can be very beneficial to someone like myself who has slogged through a lot of unnecessary emotional stuff over the years.

In fact, one of my biggest concerns about the state of the charismatic church today is the way emotion is passed off as an indicator of the truth and a blanket endorsement of beliefs and practices.

We are emotional creatures, but our emotion was never intended to be the sole source of determining major issues in our lives. I know most in the emotion driven charismatic world would consider this completely out to lunch, but I have found a measure of freedom and peace of mind in this understanding that I never had before during all my years of being involved in the craziness that goes on out there.

mo

[calv (calv)]

mo

emotions are such a powerful thing. They are not bad,
untill they are used to control ! I hate being controlled.
They are such a big part of our lives, we cant live without them, and I wouldnt want to. The unhealthy use of emotion drives more people from God than any other thing in my opinion.
Spiritual and emotional abuse go hand in hand. Why do batterd women stay in the situations they are in?

Ive found the more I am in the world the more I love the Lord, the more Im in " a church" the more disillusioned I became. I want to live in the world, be salt. There are so many good people out there once you look past the exterior and see what is inside. That means I have to let my walls down and be secure in who I am, not what I belong to...

calv

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

I believe emotions take over when a particular subject has been fully aired out, and rather than accepting the fact of impasse, we continue to hammer away.

It has occured regularly on CCG, including by yours truly. Being given the bum's rush by the CCG moderator helped me gain perspective about it.

The controversy over Steve Born long ago reached impasse for most involved.

There are exceptions, like Ed W's well thought out comments. I'm not endorsing everything Ed had to say, just noting that he took the time to put his thoughts together in a concise way, rather than emoting an endless concoction of facts, innuendos, and demagoguery.

If CCG group-think were personified, it would say, "Steve, you are too much given to verbose corrections of us, and here are 9,721 reasons why you are wrong!"

The irony of this is lost on those caught up in group-think.

[calv (calv)]

OJ

I see it as repression. The emotions are there but they try to mask them. Instead of adressing emotions, motives are assigned, accusations are made, no true attempts are made at seeing the true heart of those they are upset with. Its the same old program as chapel, them vs us, black and white. The middle ground is confused. Show me, dont tell me! Do any of us really know how to work thru problems? Have we anyone that could model the prossess? They have no real solutions, but only add to the confusion. People need to speak thier mind, get it out, and then have those feelings aknowlaged and be allowed to be where they are. This opens up the door to deeper disscusions. It takes time a long time, there are no simple soulutions to complex problems. But God does make a way for those who are willing to seek him for answers. He does restore hope when all hope is gone. I think its up to us to be Gods hand extended, not a judge that looks down
and says but for the grace of God go I.... no that is me, I need those who will climb out of the pit with me.

calv

[calv (calv)]

circumstances create emotion
emotion creates behavior
behavior speaks louder than words
its not what we say
its what we do
what does is cause others to do?
an endless cycle
no beggining
no end
one thing leads to the next

[jeepman (jeepman)]

Steve26,

LCMS? I went to an LCMS School for a time. It was the best of my school years. In fact, my teacher at the LCMS school was the only one who cared enough to apply the "rod of justice". I called her bluff....once!

There is rarely a time that I don't listen to Pastor Ken Klaus on the Lutheran Hour. Yes, I am unashamedly a Trinitarian. I still have problems with the JING statement. Where is that in Scripture?


Jeepman

[calv (calv)]

oh pullleez... someone cant wait for Steve B, to be ban
so it will be more christ like on ccg!

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Reminds me of when Jimmy Swaggart said that Jim Bakker was a cancer that needed to be removed from the body of Christ.

[steve26 (steve26)]

Jeepman,

Yes, I was raised LCMS (my dad is in fact an LCMS pastor), and I went to school for about two-and-a-half years at Concordia, Seward, before dropping out. Shortly after that I moved out to Seattle and encountered Community Chapel. An LCMS cousin of mine attempted to tell me after I joined the Chapel that its Oneness teaching did not protect the deity of Christ, but I did not believe him at the time. I was really startled to see his prediction come true nearly twenty years later when so many ex-Chapelites went into the JING teaching.

Now the LCMS is the synod to which I have happily returned I've not heard the Lutheran Hour in ages - not since Oswald Hoffman was the speaker in the 70's.

I am glad to hear that you are Trinitarian. Were you at the Chapel?

[steve26 (steve26)]

Onesimus,

Personally, I find the controversy about Steve Born over at the CCG board to be a bore. I like good doctrinal discussions myself! Why don't they have more of those?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Steve26,

Guess that depends on what one considers good, when it comes to doctrinal discussions.

When I reached an impasse in such discussions, I did find your exchanges with Greg and Cliff of interest, but only in small doses.

Personally, I would rather see the subject of Christology broached in the form of a formal debate.

If Silverbee bans Steve Born, the board will be primarily a place to discuss hobbies, and celebrate the joys of no beer, after Silverbee is duly praised for his longsuffering, patience, and wisdom.

Unless John (allergic to injustice when he recognizes it) goes ballistic, in which case Silverbee will face another crisis. John is a-doctrinal, and his candid sharing of struggles has found the very narrow range of maladies for which sympathy can be found on CCG.

A vote on John might not go Silverbee's way.

[movinon (movinon)]

One,

Is the ccg board really voting on whether or not to ban Steve Born???? Did they publicly and officially ban you, too? Who will be next, anyone who doesn't like to find out what Joel is having for dinner that night??? That would definitely include me. :-)

mo

[steve26 (steve26)]

mo,

For your entertainment, you should check it out. There was a poll on whether or not I should leave. It was a landslide against me. But Dave was not using it as the means to ban me. Things were in such an uproar over there (3 or 4 threads with 60+ postings just about my participation there) that he wanted to gauge the situation for his own info. He sent me an email asking if I'd agree to taking a 2-3 month break. He made it clear it wasn't a ban or a suspension, but only for the sake of giving the board some time to cool off. So this morning I decided to agree. I'm planning on posting something here later today or tomorrow about what I learned from the whole situation and what was said during it.

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Mo,

I was banned in Dec. The only public announcement was a melodramatic post stating that I wouldn't be posting anymore. The fact that I was banned, and the circumstances thereby, weren't made public until recently (Aug), though most participants knew.

Through a misunderstanding, I (wrongly) thought I had been reinstated. The moderator refused to deal with me privately by e-mail or phone, and instead publicly railed on me, even coming to this forum (as "Silverbee") to continue his harangue.

About Joel's dinner...Joel is more Christian than Christ is, so nobody will be having dinner wine at his table.

[movinon (movinon)]

One and steve26,

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees...wow...I can hardly believe that they would ban, you, One, and ask you, Steve, to take a break...it's just too weird! After all the bs that has transpired on that board with other people saying and doing some really far out and down right offensive stuff, to ask you two to no longer participate just shows how "out to lunch" the whole place has become. Then for "silverbee" to show up on this board and try to pull the same tactics here as are allowed there just really disappoints me in him; but I'm sure my disappointment doesn't matter a lot to him or anyone on that board. I really think they have lost all perspective, but then, that is what happens to people when they continue on in a cult mentality. It is so typical of groups like cc to begin to ostracize and isolate.

mo

[movinon (movinon)]

steve26,

As far as checking out the ccg board for myself, I just can't allow myself to go there again. I dumped the link and don't ever want to go back to the place that the board has become. I used to feel welcome there, but I haven't felt that in a LONG time, probably for the last two years or more. That board cost me a lot, emotionally and psychologically, for a long time. It just took me a long time to realize that I wasn't getting anything out of it any longer, but it was sure taking a lot out of me. So, I'll have to depend on you guys to relay any pertinent information or going's on that I might need to know.

mo

[steve26 (steve26)]

mo,

I understand. It's not something I recommend to anybody myself anymore, and now I've given myself a vacation from it anyway. But a few new lights went on for me this last week or so about the whole Chapel experience, and I don't think I would have seen it any other way than by pushing things to the limit over there. I hope to write about it soon here.

[calv (calv)]

Just a thought... there is no longer a CC. that makes everyone a "former member"... The chapel still lives on
in the hearts and minds of the" true beliver". If chapel was a cult, does that cult still exist?
Lets take a poll!

[steve26 (steve26)]

You know how I feel, Calv. I think as long as they carry Don's anti-Trinitarianism around with them, they're carrying around a proud grudge against the church that more or less automatically makes them cultish. I really have come to feel strongly, especially by the CCG board's behavior in the last week or so, that my long-standing hypothesis in that regard has been confirmed. (This doesn't mean that there aren't also other things that tend in that direction.)

More later, though...

[jeepman (jeepman)]

Steve26,

No, I did not attend the Chapel. I knew someone from there. In fact, I did apply to the College, but God slammed that door shut fast. I didn't know why at the time, but after reading of the events of 1988, I see God's protection on my life. Speaking of Dr. Hoffmann, during a tough period of grief, the LCMS sent me a pamphlet that he wrote on the subject. It saved my sanity. I sure wish I could've thanked him in person.

[steve26 (steve26)]

Jeepman,

It's nice to hear from somebody who benefitted from Dr. Hoffman's ministry. Are you presently active in the LCMS?

How did you hear of the Chapel's Bible college? Were you living in Seattle at the time? (I looked up Knob Noster on the Web and learned that is in Missouri - I assume that is where you're living now?)

[onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)]

Steve,

Knob Noster is the location of Whiteman Air Force Base. Jeepman and I were stationed there at the same time in the early 80's. He knew of the Chapel from me.

I'll leave it up to him if he wants to add more details.

Jeepman ( or anyone) - if you want to call me today (Sunday), its 417-546-7966

[onesimus (onesimus)]

To show my patriotism, I sometimes drink Samuel Adams beer.

Although he was from Massachusetts, S.A. was an anti-Federalist, and hence a true champion of liberty.

I just tried a S.A. seasonal brew called "Octoberfest." Mmmm good!

[calv (calv)]

BEHOLD........!!!! The power of BEER! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[movinon (movinon)]

Hey One,

We tried the Sam Adams Octoberfest the other day, too! It's a great beer!! We bought a case!

Had dinner out with my sweetheart on Friday night. We visited an alehouse downtown and I had a very pale ale called "white knuckle" or something like that. It was good, but I have to say the Sam Adams Octoberfest was better!

Indeed! Behold the power of beer, especially a good one!

mo

[steveb (steveb)]

Hey Calv - just thinking this morning. I sure have appreciated getting together with you to have a few beers over the past year to just talk about things. It fills a need where something was missing before. There's nothing quite like a few guys getting together over a good brew, even it's only for a short time.

And it's great to be able to mention that fact without getting verbally assaulted for drunkenness by a bunch of up-tight Pentecostal ladies (of both sexes!) like we were whenever we mentioned on the CCG board that we now drink beer.

Even though hardly anybody else posts here, it's great to be able to have a place (either here on FACTNet or during our get-togethers) where we can openly discuss our opinion that the Chapel was a cult without being verbally assaulted by the same ladies for being bitter and angry against the Chapel.

[calv (calv)]

It does the heart good Bro!

All these yrs after bc we can finally be who we are
and get to know each other!

I have a lot of respect for you Steve!
Standing up for what you belive in and taking the things you have and shareing them for others to see...
in spite of what the "popular opinions" like to dish out!

Its good not to walk the road alone...
where ever two or more are gatherd....

funny how easy it is to stumble the really manure saints!
er I mean mature.... haven't had my beer yet !

Of cousre when I post it sounds like Im drugs!

[movinon (movinon)]

Hi guys,

Just popped into say hi...

The spouse and I enjoyed a nice Glenfiddich on the rocks last night and watched "Cinderella Man". I'm appreciative of these small comforts in life and that we're free to enjoy them.

Cheers!

mo

[steveb (steveb)]

Hey mo! It's great to see a post from you here on the board again. How's school going?

We got snow here last night! It's beautiful this morning, though it's already melting of course. I was at home all evening while it came down, but Karla came home from Woodinville after it snowed and she tells me it only extends in about a ten-block circle around our neighborhood - no place else in the north end has snow. Very cool. However, the possibility was forecast and the south end had snow the night before so it wasn't entirely unexpected.

Thanks for the note - talk to you later...

---Steve

[movinon]

Things couldn't be busier or crazier with school, but...that is part of the game. I've got a rough draft of that Social Psyc paper I was telling you about and will email you a copy when I get to a point that I feel it is ready to turn in. I'm learning some really interesting stuff....I always think of you guys when I'm learning this stuff. Someday, hopefully soon, over a nice cold beer, I'll tell you guys all about it. :-)

We've had lots of moisture down here, but thankfully not much snow in the valley. The river is running really high because we have a surplus of H2O. I think they might even declare the drought over this year.

What's this I read about you being banned from CCG? Has Calv been banned, too? Not much changes in certain arenas, does it?

Keep in touch...I do come up for air from school every now and then. :-)

mo

[steveb]

mo,

I'm looking forward a lot to reading that paper. I hope you do make it to Seattle this summer so we can discuss it over that beer. We'll call a special session of the CCG dissidents just for the occasion.

And mentioning that, yeah, I seem to have been formally banned from the CCG board. It was all kind of anti-climatic, though. I don't really know why or when I was banned. Unless he posted something on the board that I missed since I haven't been reading it, Dave made no attempt to inform me about it. Not that it would have made much difference to me anyway. Probably he just thought it made sense to ban me when I announced I wouldn't be reading the board again, and I can't really quarrel with that logic. Kind of a "you can't quit - I fire you!" situation, I guess.

The reason I know now that I'm banned is because yesterday I went there for the first time in weeks. Calv's postings here about it made me kind of curious about what was going on. After reading one thread in which Calv was being portrayed as a negative and angry person (because, in my opinion, he writes about the spiritual abusiveness of the Chapel without giving the standard lip service to the "God was in it anyway" notion), I decided to break my self-imposed silence and post something in his defense.

However, when I tried to post what I had written, I got a message from the system saying it couldn't post it because the moderator had banned my IP address. Using WebWarper.net, I went ahead and posted anyway. As I said in a P.S. to my posting, I felt it would be somewhat unfair for Calvin to face an entirely hostile audience of people who haven't even met him in person while the only person who did actually know him and wanted to speak in his defense was prevented from doing so. But from now on I have no problem at all with honoring the ban - I've already found it very refreshing to be completely out of contact with that sorry little world.

[calv]

mo?

MO!

is that you!!!!

cinderella man... good flick!!!!

the lowdown....sos...but not bannished...xx

levitte and fiddich... two of the nicest glens I ve ever met!

As I go thru life I think about what your learning in school!!!

;~)

[calv]

Hey MO!

I seem to push a lot of buttons over there! It brings out the best in everyone! I wonder why?

It seems like there is still so much pain just below the surface in so many there Its like trying to help a wonded dog... they just don't understand and think Im trying to hurt them!

It really just opens my eyes more to what really happened and how deceptive cc really IS....still today!

We are a long long way for getting to the real issues that are just beneath the surface... but they are manifesting themselfs!!! It just brings more attention
as they try to hide from thier pain and cover it all back up with sweet chapel speak!!!!

Sweet chapel speak isnt christianity.... it is atotal fabrication and lie that we were taught in the cc cult!!!
A very effective tool to hide behind....

except when it gets pointed out and others begin to identify it's martkings....

Many of us are sick of being marked by the ex-chapel crowd.... but they can't help themselfs!

[movinon]

Hey Calv,

An interesting point is that the higher the price one pays to be a part of something, the more you will convince yourself that the group or organization was worth that high price you paid. People at CC paid high prices to be a part of a cult and they are still convincing themselves to this day that the price they paid was worth it; to think otherwise would be to invalidate themselves. It is so much a part of human nature to self-justify, even to the point of destruction. The only reason some of us have come to the realization that it wasn't worth it was because we were willing to endure the incredible emotional and mental turmoil that facing our mistakes caused us to endure. Once again, it gets back to how honest and willing we really are to face the truth. I spent a lot of years facing down some really ugly stuff about what I was a part of and what was a part of me....it hurts like hell but it's well worth it, and it's the only way to ever be truly free.

mo

[steveb]

That's a good insight, mo. I had not heard it stated that way before you brought it up but, due to our experience at the Chapel and subsequently on the CCG board, the truth of it has certainly been well-illustrated for us. It goes a long way toward explaining why people hold so tenaciously to the doctrine they learned from Don Barnett even though it has become obvious to nearly everybody else that he was (and is) an unbalanced man who sees the world in a very distorted way and who has never been fit to teach anybody anything about Biblical faith.

[calv]

It is so very hard to face the truth of the real price that was paid to be a part of the deception.... all the lives that are affected by the particapation.
There are those who still suffer today as the denial continues....
The neglected children acting out for the attention they never got... because "the calling of the chapel" matterd more.
I only invested four years there ... but I am still discovering why "IT" drew me in and what happened to me there.... "IT" was familiar.... I grew up with "IT"....
"IT" was all I ever knew....
"IT" is still being passed on today!
A very sad reality.... and very deceptive!

Not allowing "IT" to decive me anymore is my goal...
Who I am is not what"it" says I am... but 'THEY" need us to be what they want so they can remain hidden...

Thier accusations are so false... as a group they are able to build back up the image so they can continue to worship....(a man??)
IT is NOT about JESUS..... IT is all about THEM!

Who am I or who are we to judge the Body of Christ?
Useing cc as our only guide... BIG MISTAKE!

some lessons are hard to learn!
Facing The PAIN is the only way to see the truth!
running from IT only gives IT more power....

[movinon]

Hey guys,

Another interesting point is the idea of what is normal and expected for a group, what behaviors are considered allowable and even required. Some people think that not being a part of the groupthink of a group has no effect upon them, but in reality, the effects can be quite severe. Some theorists even think that the strong desire most people have to be part of a group is genetic in origin. This is why when one "lone wolf or two" decide to break from what the group sees as their social norms, the group will potentially tolerate it for only so long and then the hammer falls and the offending party is shown in ways that only a group can just how punitive separation from the group can be. These are things we experienced when we left the chapel and sorry to say, probably experienced in an even more up close and personal way on ccg. In fact, I would say that on ccg it was more magnified due to the smaller size of the regular group of posters there.

Calv, I think you summed it up when you said, "but THEY need us to remain what they want so that they can remain hidden." The very fact that someone, anyone, stands up and questions what they see as the justification for why they did what they did, believe what they believe, and still defend it today, is actually challenging them on a social, emotional, and spiritual level that most don't completely understand....and react to in a very visceral and almost primitive way.

While I'm sure many that are still of the old mindset would brand such understanding "wisdom of the world" and "demonic intellectualism", I'm appreciative of the peace that such understanding brings with it. I used to think much of this behavior was a real mystery, but come to find out it's pretty average (yes, average only in that it is expected, yet still dysfunctional in nature) behavior when confronted with issues such as we were all confronted with at cc and other places.

Why would ccg be any different than cc? I can't see any reason why it ultimately should be any different...not as long as people are still justifying a place, an experience, and a leader that from this perspective in time and space, were so far off the mark that we weren't even on the beam!

mo

[calv]

A familiar system of common behaviours.
"IT" matches so many other systems that I know from a diffent place and time.
Everyone has a role to play. The roles change as the system grows or as members leave...
Take the scapegoat out and someone else will fill that role... Its just a matter of time...
history repeats "IT"'s self... from generation to generation...

Seeing the BIG picture?
Some do... but "IT" is so hard to face...
"IT" SHAMES us into submission.

[calv]

To stand quietly by and do nothing as abuse takes place... is being a part of that system. A person may not approve of the group behaviour. but to speak up would cost them!

I just read a book by Richard Pelzer
A brothers journey

His brother was Dave Pelzer....
The story of the abuse that family went thru, and why we keep secrets....
All abuse is not the same... some is disgusied behind a religious covering.
Even the most obvious abuse gets ignored by society...

If we are the body of Christ what should we do about it?

[steveb]

Hey Calv,

I've got a question for you. This is not in disagreement with anything you've said - it's just a question that I've had as I've read your posts here and as we've talked at other times.

You look back at the Chapel (and at the CCG board) and see primarily "abuse."

I look back at the Chapel (and at the CCG board) and see primarily "false doctrine."

I think this is due to the fact that you knew a lot more about what Don, the elders, and many of the members of Community Chapel were doing (even before connections) that I simply had no idea of at the time. If I were talking only about my own experience there, I would have a hard time seeing it in terms of abuse. I can't really say that "abuse" is the proper word for what I experienced there, other than the fact that I believe (now) that I was spiritually seduced by an attractive but false system of belief and worship. Until nearly ten years after leaving the Chapel, even after finding out about all of the sexual irregularities that had occurred during the connection era, I described its early years and its founding doctrines as examples of everything a church should be.

So my question is this - do you think that people like me are most accurately described as having been abused by the Chapel? I am not questioning the fact that abuse occurred at the Chapel, nor the fact that you personally were abused. I am just wondering if you think "abuse" is the best word or phrase for summing up what was wrong at the Chapel for everybody who went there, because I'm not sure I do think that. And also - if you don't think that's the best description, what would it be?

What do you think? (I would be glad to hear what mo has to say on this also.)

[calv]

Steve

What is abuse?

How do we define abuse?

#1 at cc was spiritual abuse....
http://www.spiritualabuse.org/introduction.html

as a result many other forms of abuse took place there.

Not knowing what has happened to us is not uncommon... we go into denial, in order to survive.

Abuse can be very subtle.. it seems normal.... it is normal!?!? so it just blends into the fabric of our lives...

it can be verbal ..... emotional

it is not allways sexual or physical

neglect of the needs of a person is abuse!

The leadership at cc promoted thir own agendas
over the wellbeing of the flock.... they misused thier positions... and yes you were and are still affected by that, although you may not realize it!?!?

What we went thru becomes a part of who we are and we carry those memories with us the rest of our lives.
We reflect what we have been exposed to.... sometimes in good ways sometimes not.

Each of us deals with abuse differntly....
in healthy ways or in unhealty ways.

now thats just a beginning to something that I belive
is the future of the Church... true healing.... not the superficial pretend kind where its all a miracle....Jesus just fixed me!

What connections promised was acceptance by another humanbeing.... Its what we all long for!
But what did we buy in to?
what did it cost us?
How much of ourselfs did we invest in cc?
How much did the leaders invest in us?
Was it really for GOD? or was it for thier own egos???

I wish I could write!
so much to say but the words get in the way...

Deep down we longed for God and his love...
the road we were lead down was ABUSE
denial
ignorance
minimzation
thats what keeps us trapped!
just watching others spin in the same old rut... is very sad!
To stand by and say nothing.... that would be neglect!
What do I do with what I have learned?

[calv]

Did what you/we didn't know hurt you/us?

Did we allow db and the leaders to be empowerd...
by all the many ways we supported them?

our tithes? how many ways did they take advantage of us?

Those that they put out?
the kids....still today that belive in what they were exposed to...what exactly were they exposed too?

What was the extent of the sexual abuse?
Being mislead to belive it was a spiritual experiance??? was it???
So what if you were willing and over 18...that means its not abuse?

The deception is so overwhelming.....
the denial of it all is even more overwhelming!!!!

Then to listen to what they dish out on ccg today....
abuse is not being manifest there now ????

get a grip on reality folks!!!!

But we are the crazy ones over here????calv

[movinon]

Guys,

Steve, I think your question is very thought provoking, and a perfect example that the most important thing about our experiences is the manner in which we perceive them; and that is not to say that the effects of what we experienced are somehow all in our heads. I'm just saying that we each approach things with different ideas and expectations, so naturally, we are going to perceive them differently. To you, it may not have felt all that abusive because you probably didn't perceive yourself as much at the whims and control of the chapel as say Calv or myself did. You probably didn't feel nearly as out of control of what was happening to you as most people did because of your family and religious background (I'm speculating).

I think, in defining the chapel as abusive, I would have to look at its organizational practices and its expectations of its followers. Social norms are very powerful things, and when misused or misdirected, they can do great harm. So, in a nutshell, coming from this standpoint, I would definitely agree with Calv that the chapel was abusive.

If I felt that I could not buy bacon at the grocery store because someone from the chapel might see me and report me to the "powers that be", then you really have to question the strength, direction, and motive of the behavioral direction of a particular group. Does the chapel fit the bill for what I described above? Unequivocally, yes.

I believe that any time anyone's autonomy and individuality is threatened by a person or group that thinks they have the right to dictate what only the person's conscience and heart before God should dictate, then yes, abuse is definitely an issue.

The chapel, in my humble opinion, was an abusive organization. It was run by a self-appointed leader (most cults usually are) who felt that he had revelations and understanding no one else had. The uncurrent of groupthink and control was like a riptide, not apparent on the surface but deadly once you were caught in it. We were all caught in it to one degree or another.

In conclusion, I don't doubt the chapel was abusive, but I think different people experienced that abuse to varying degrees maybe simply due to their own personalities and coping mechanisms.

mo

[movinon]

Hey guys,

I just came across a definition, according to social psychology, of the term "groupthink"...It is:

"A kind of thinking in which maintaining group cohesiveness and solidarity is more important than considering the facts in a realistic manner."

Also, groupthink is most likely to occur when certain preconditions are met, such as when the group is highly cohesive, isolated from contrary opinions, and ruled by a directive leader who makes his or her wishes known. Whew! Does this describe ccg and cc or what?????!!!

When these preconditions are met,several symptoms start to appear...the group begins to think it is invulnerable and can do no wrong, people do not voice contrary opinions (self-censorship) because they are afraid of the groups judgement...again, whew!!! The shoe fits, doesn't it?

This is an official definition, and the term "groupthink" is an accepted psychological term.

Just thought you might find that interesting. :-)

mo

[calv]

WELL....MO

social psychology is a bunch of balhony!!!
it comes from the domestic violence industry!!!
db taught against it!!!
and the whole group all agrees with us!!!!
if you keep causing problems I will ban you!!!
besides Im a better christian then everyone else and Ill never stop telling everyone ha ha !!!
your obviously trinitarian!!!!


etc....

;~)

[movinon]

Of course, it's that evile book learning stuff.....we should all be barefoot and ignorant, right? Being ignorant is being safe, right? If I don't know anything then I can't make any decisions for myself, right???? :-)

mo

[calv]

Now that Im all mental....
I better go see my shrink!

[steveb]

Very good answers, Calv and mo. They give me several new perspectives on the Chapel, or things to think about, even after all these years. That definition of "groupthink" that you found, mo, was extremely interesting. I am looking forward more an more to reading your paper.

[calv]

http://ship-of-fools.com/Signs/blunders/hello_pastor.html

[movinon]

Calv,

Where do you find this stuff????? The part of about stopping the "butt movements" just cracked me up :-) You've got to feel sorry for pastors and some of the stuff they have to listen to from "well meaning" individuals. :-)

mo

[calv]

ccg

[steveb]

Calv and mo,

As a result of your answers to my "abuse vs. false doctrine" question about how one views what happened at the Chapel, I've been thinking more about the part that each played over the years and the relationship between them.

I think I can see how the kind of abuse about which you've written did play a greater part in my life at the Chapel than I would have previously suspected. Certain of my own immature and mistaken ideas about what God required of me or the way God worked were exploited by the Chapel's system, instead of being gently corrected like they would have been in the teaching of a normal church (maybe by simply modeling a sound approach).

The Chapel took me in a spiritually abnormal direction that, to the degree I wasn't able to fully conform myself to what was being taught, made me increasingly uncomfortable - until the breaking point was reached with connections. But to the degree that the manipulative pressure of Chapel teaching made me conform myself and made me suppress my discomfort before that time, I was being abused.

Does that express what you're saying?

[calv]

Steve

Doctrine,be it true or false, is a tool the abuser uses.
The word gets twisted to cover and justify the abuse's.
Once the mindset is there its a matter of control.
Those who do not conform... leave.
Those who do are rewarded... just being shown a small amount of favor is often enough.
Our values were refocused... to the "higher" calling and the privilage of taking part in the work (GOD?) was doing...
Certainaly God is everywhere and works in our lives in mysterious ways... even thru cc and db....
The glory goes to GOD... not cc etc....
The misuse and abuse was how as a group we followed where we were lead.
Very differnt experiances were had by all...
Some were not aware of what was taking place in many ways thru many members...
The keeping of secrets... It affects the whole family, its just that we are programed to only see "things" a certain way...
Yes you were abused Steve...Even if you don't see it or feel it... yet .

What you wrote begins to express what Im saying only there are many more layers....

ct

[movinon]

Steve,

Yep, sounds like we are saying the same thing. Abuse is highly personal and subjective, in some respects.

mo

[steveb]

Thanks, mo. I appreciate the insights into the psychological and sociological background of the Chapel that you bring, and I'm looking forward to hearing the things you continue to discover and exploring those directions myself.

However, I don't want to lose sight of the spiritual elements of the situation, either, by focusing only on the psychological view of it. I know you aren't asking us to do that, of course, nor neglecting the spiritual in your own life, but I just wanted to reiterate where my own primary interests lie for personal study, namely Biblical theology and church history. I believe there is such a thing as wholesome, orthodox Christian doctrine - i.e., the meaning of the Bible that God intended for his church to apprehend - that is worth finding. And there is also such a thing as spiritual deception that one can fall into and as a result be led astray from the faith while still thinking one is walking the path to eternal life.

(Message edited by steveb on March 25, 2006)

[jeepman]

One,

Samuel Adams may be from Massachusetts, but the beer with his name is now brewed right here in Cincinnati....mmmmmm beer!

[movinon]

Steve,

I believe more and more that the spiritual events that we all experienced are more clearly understood by understanding the psychological/sociological explanations for basic human behavior. I think one of the big mistakes we have made is to separate these two areas too much. The more I study these subjects, the more I see that they are very intertwined.

I, too, believe that there is a good side, and yes, an extremely needful side for religious expression, organization, structure, and yes, tradition. When you start to look at the place of religion in society, essentially from the dawn of time, one can see that it is an infrastructural necessity.......BUT, it has, at times, turned into an extremely dysfunctional dilemma. Case in point: CC (and many, many groups like it).

I am convinced more all the time that my path since CC has been to discover, for myself firstly and foremost, healthy spiritualality and normal religious expression. Looking back at cc, there was almost nothing normal about the way we expressed our religous commitment and feelings. In fact, it was down right weird. I mean, walking around and muttering to yourself and others about how much you love the Lord and how much in love with Jesus you are is not normal behavior. It is also no real gauge about how much someone is committed to their belief system, either.

Your study of theology and church history is absolutely vital to fleshing out the whole picture. I think back to my days in Western Civ class and how I literally felt like the dots were finally being connected in my mind about the history that was and is the church as we know it today. It really does take different people with different thrusts, goals, and focuses because this subject is way too broad for one person to cover it all.

One of the reasons spiritual deception works is because the enemy of our souls knows more about us and our natures than we do. We have spent so many years denying our humanity because we think this is what we are supposed to do to be good christians, but in denying our humanity we have blinded ourselves to the reality of what we are and how we respond and function.

How can we be expected to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ if we don't udnerstand his word and even worse, don't understand ourselves? We can think we are doing this, but really, maybe we aren't doing what we think are doing? Maybe we are only deceiving ourselves as we were at CC?

I'm glad your niche is what it is, Steve, and I'm glad mine is what it is. The yoke fits and that makes what we do a passion and not just a job.

mo

[calv]

Have a friend hold each side of the ladder....
It makes climbing much safer!





opps.... forgot this was the beer thread.... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[calv]

What I needed when I first came to c, was healing!
I needed to look at my past and understand what I had been thru... I needed people who really care ABOUT ME!
Instead I was taken under the wings of some well meaning people and lead into something that only used my issues and made things worse and more confusing in my life!
Yes I turned my life over to Jesus as I understood him and made some real commitments.... I wanted to serve Him! But instead of getting what I needed ... I was lead into what cc needed. They trained me to be just like them... and I was willing! I didn't know anybetter!
How many others just like me took the same route?
What was the final outcome?

All these years later and I am beginning to finally untangle some of the twisted threads in my life....
finding the freedom of who I am and who God really is in my life.

Yet there is this dark side in the church that shames anything that goes against what has been established!
They are afraid of being exposed for what and who they really are! Why???

[calv]

It's FRIDAY!!!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[steveb]

Yep - time for burgers and beer at Mr. McMenamin's house!

[movinon]

Man, that sounds really good...I had left over pizza for dinner.

mo

[calv]

I had a cheeseburger Steve had his usual nemoburger.... has bacon and blu cheese!
Then he had to drive me home.... my ignition broke!
Ill get it towed in the morning!

The rest of the meeting was really good too!
It's nice to sit and chat.... good therapy!

[onesimus]

McMenamin's sounds like a neat place.

I'm enjoying a Guinness draught as I contemplate this thread.

That definition of "groupthink" was timely, Mo.

Now I'm thinking of addressing issues on the Steve Born thread at CCG.

[onesimus]

Samuel Adams SUMMER ALE is out.

I wouldn't have bought it had I noticed it was a wheat ale, having never tried a wheat beer that pleased me.

But this really surprised me with its smoothness and freshness, maybe from being brewed with lemon?

I've had two of them this week, and could try another anytime!

Good thing the prohibitionists think this forum is demonic and don't read it!

(Message edited by onesimus on May 20, 2006)

[steveb]

I've been trying different brews myself lately. For about two years I'd been sticking with Porters, but the past few months I've been asking for whatever McMenamin's has on nitro. (carbonated with nitrogen instead of carbon dioxide - supposedly that is the way beer was originally brewed - it has a somewhat mellower taste). Usually the only time I drink is about once a week when I get together there with Calv, or in some other pub with somebody from work. Only rarely do I buy something at a store. I will give the Sam Adam's Summer Ale a try, though - it sounds good.