CCG Watch

[steveb]

Sigh. I tried to resist this, but the CCGers just wouldn't let me. They persist in personal attacks on, and misrepresentations of, anybody they perceive as an enemy instead of addressing the substantial doctrinal issues those participants raise. Plus, of course, in regard to my own situation, they've now banned me but still persist in making cowardly personal attacks they know I can't answer directly. This is the insane logic of CCG polemics though. Those people specialize not in expounding any coherent or convincing position of their own but in provoking one to anger with distortions, misrepresentations, and personal attacks, and keeping at it and keeping at it, until one either leaves or plays their game. One finally feels forced into responding because, as I said of David Kenady's postings yesterday, other people one knows may be reading these things and may start to think they're true unless one says something about them.

Therefore this is a new thread designed to monitor and address the ridiculous misrepresentations often posted on the Chapel board, of me or of anybody or anything else.

Pride of place, the inaugural entry, will go to ex-Chapel member Bob Sackett, who posted this today about me on the Chapel board:<blockquote><font face="Georgia">Re: My comments about Steve

Posted by Bob Sackett on 4/7/2006, 8:25 am, in reply to "Re: My comments about Steve "
70.110.48.143

Lets see, SB said I was a heretic and was going to hell. So yes some on this board has a very slight distaste for him.

But the biggest problem is his outright dishonesty with the word. I have posted before he has whole bunch of demons that cause him to slither around like a snake.

The real sad part is I really see Steve going downhill much faster in these last few months. A person that is getting bitterer (sp) instead of getting closer to Jesus.

Bob</font></blockquote>Every sentence in this posting is either false or grossly misleading and, as was the situation with Dave Kenady, Bob Sackett knows every sentence is false or grossly misleading because these very same things have come up several times before and I have explicitly responded to them by spelling out what my real beliefs are.

[Continued in the next posting...]

[steveb]

[...continued from the previous posting]

For example, here's an exchange from January of 2004:<blockquote><font face="Georgia">Stevie

Posted by Bob Sackett on 1/2/2004 5:52:00 PM
68.167.191.159

You think I am out to lunch, I think you are out to lunch and to boot you think people like me have lost our salvation and are going to hell, while I still think you are going to make heaven, so WE DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING MUCH IN COMMON.

SO I DO NOT usually WANT TO MESS WITH YOUR TWISTED LOGIC.

Bob

========================================
Re: Stevie

Posted by Steve B. on 1/2/2004 8:10:00 PM
67.168.13.4

Bob,

I don't think you're "out to lunch." I think you're a quite decent individual who is the unwitting victim of a very seductive doctrine. Remember that I myself believed similar doctrines for nearly twenty years.

---Steve
=========================================
Do you think people like Bob have lost Their salvation

Posted by sjm [Steve Mulford] on 1/2/2004 10:34:00 PM
67.5.178.133

Bob claim that "you think people like me have lost our salvation" was not refuted. Care to speak on this?
==========================================
Answer

Posted by Steve B. on 1/3/2004 8:07:00 AM
67.168.13.4

Steve,

This question came up only three weeks ago in a thread in which you posted, and which is still on the third page (dated 12/11/03 and titled "To Steve B - salvation in jeopardy"). But to briefly summarize my response, which is that same every time this question comes up, it's "I don't know, but I think it's a possibility." And you need to realize, I do not have others primarily in mind when I say this, but myself. I look back at myself as I was at the Chapel, and am frightened for the position into which I put myself. I'm not sitting here chortling over anything dumb that I think somebody else believes. Rather, I'm writing about dumb things I once believed, and now am grateful to have escaped, and to have been restored into a more truly Biblical faith.

---Steve</font></blockquote>

[steveb]

Here's another example from March of 2004, which shows my true position, again written directly to Bob Sackett in correction of some of his distortions of it:<blockquote><font face="Georgia">Posted by Steve B. on 3/6/2004 4:43:00 PM
67.168.13.4

Bob,

I have a couple of comments and questions about your posting...

First, what are "the mechanical aspects of Christianity?" I've never heard that phrase used before and don't know what it means, so I can't say whether or not it is an accurate characterization of what I now believe or do.

You also write<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Steve and Trin are both almost to the point of burning people at the stake.</font></blockquote>This is outlandish and something I don't usually even bother commenting on. It still shows traces of the wild paranoia that was partially responsible for the Chapel's isolation from the rest of the body of Christ in the past, as it is in the present for COA.

You have stated that you have a high degree of doubt that I'm saved because of the doctrines I now "spout." I've said no more than that about you, and about those with whose doctrine you agree; and it could be argued, in my opinion, that I've said so much more civilly. So why is it OK for you to say that kind of thing about me, but if I say it about you (or about those with whose doctrine you agree), then that's being "almost to the point of burning people at the stake?" There's some absurd incongruities in your attitudes here, of which I think you are unaware.</font></blockquote>[Archived CCG posting continued below...]

[steveb]

[Archived CCG posting continued from above]<blockquote><font face="Georgia">You also write,<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Steve B has said that I am a heretic and that there is little chance of me making it to heaven.</font></blockquote>I've never said there is little chance of you making it to heaven. But more importantly, my intent here has not been to label others but to discuss the doctrinal falsehoods by which I believe we were ALL misled at the Chapel, including myself. I've come to believe that the Chapel was cult-like in both the theological sense and the sociological sense. When others (who I believe have malicious intent) have pressed me on the question of whether or not that makes those who continue to hold Chapel-like doctrine saved, I have honestly admitted my doubts about it. However, assessing the motivations and spiritual state of others is not my own object. I spend little or no time thinking about the issue, and would not write about it at all were I not pressed by others, who then attempt to personalize the discussions here in hostile ways. But I myself am not writing out of personal hostility to anybody here; my motivation comes from the doubts I now have concerning the spiritual state into which I myself was put by the Chapel and its teaching.

--Steve</font></blockquote>Bob, of course, not only refused to respond to this posting at that time, he has never responded to my statements or questions at any of the many other times I've addressed similar things directly to him. He continues to ignore what I have actually written and what I actually believe. Like Dave Kenady, his irresponsible and inaccurate words are potentially poisoning the minds of others against me, and my guess is that that is his true (but perhaps unconscious) objective in lieu of being able to refute my claims (theological and otherwise) regarding the Chapel's cultishness.

This is not an isolated occurence. Bob Sackett is not the only one who does it and I think some people on the CCG board, though none of them surpass him in crudeness of technique, do it even more consciously and deliberately than he does. It is one of the reasons I've lost all respect for them.

[movinon]

Steve,

The group is punishing you...you dared defy their social norms! You dared deviate from their very narrow view of allowable behavior and belief. (You did not post the required amount of recipes!) They are behaving very true to form for those who have bought into a system of beliefs and behavior that cost them their very identity. They have to continue to justify the insanity and the price they have paid to be a part of "cc past", as well as to continue to claim membership with what is left of cc. It's crazy, but it is very typical of people that are part of cultish groups. The only difference between those that no longer believe in the myth that was cc and those that still do is the fact that those that no longer believe it endured the dissonance long enough to figure out what went wrong, even if it meant seeing that they themselves had been wrong.

Oh, but enough of all that evil psychology stuff. :-)

mo

[steveb]

Your remarks ring true, mo. Thanks for posting them.

But you'd better be careful - you're obviously almost as bitter and critical as me. According to a new CCGer named Karen Snyder, that's going to get me "dead from an accident or cancer or something similar."

But Karen of course assures us that she's praying for both me and Don Barnett, so now I am confident everything will be OK in the end.

[calv]

Looks like them good ol boys at ccg are fixin ta drag ol Steve Born by his ankles behind thir truck w a bungee cord.... yeee hawww
what a joke .... right????

[steveb]

Yep - a joke, in more ways than one. That kind of stuff isn't even worth noticing - it's not the kind of activity on the CCG board that bothers me at all.

[onesimus]

Good to see Mo back.

This is amazing to me.

As most know, I have disagreed with Steve on many things...but the latest round of inanities from Helen, Bob and co. is just too much.

[steveb]

<font color="0000ff">"This is amazing to me... the latest round of inanities from Helen, Bob and co. is just too much. "</font>

Yes. Wow. It is just stunning to be the subject of such venom that even people who express any support of me, however lukewarm and qualified, are attacked almost as relentlessly as I myself am there. And people who agree with my theology or sound too much like me are attacked as being me! Just unbelievable.

And, you know, the pitiful thing is that it just works totally against them. I think the one single biggest factor that is moving my wife out of the anti-Trinitarian camp into full acceptance of the Trinity is her witnessing of these irrrational attacks from people she knew, and still knows, from the Chapel. It is really opening her eyes to what we were involved in there and what these people are really like. I have to think, or at least hope, that their attacks are having similar effects on others who lurk there.

[calv]

Just having rational discussions with out gettin our undies in a knot isnt all that hard! Im sure between all of us here we have some large differances of opinion on lots of differnt stuff.
What gets me is the control thru personal attacks.
Whats happing on ccg is they are exposing the group think for what it is! How obvious can it be!
Dave just had to delete a list of feelings I posted cause it was a waste of space! but the stuff that gets posted on a daily basis over and over and over and over and over with out end.... and everything about how evil SB is
even poor Sid is gettin a good taste it.... I wonder how long b4 he gets sick of it? Thats just the way they treat people, but give em a taste of thier own stuff and watch what happens!
I just can't belive so few stand up to all the double standards..... are people really afraid of the rejection?

At cc we never spoke our minds and had our own opinions .... what if we did? So now we are free to express ourselfs... and expose the lies.... and that is starting to happen. There is no stoping it!
Just gotta tell the truth... and the truth will set you free!

The truth is cc messed us up in some really big ways and it is being manifest big time on the ccg board.
Time to take the blinders off....
Its not fun.... just look at the price you pay..... but its only words from people who don't know any better!

Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do.
Im not shouting at the darkness.... Im shining a light into it!

[steveb]

Did you catch that posting from "Julie J"? To me it seemed bogus and obviously from "Mark" (as was in fact suggested by the very first response), who sounds to me an awful lot like a COA member hoping for a "restoration" of ex-Chapelites to unity - under Don Barnett again probably, in their minds. Her posting was greeted by a chorus of agreement that sounded remiscent of the flood of testimonies with which COA folks once hit the board about how many good things God had done and was still doing through Don's ministry. It all sounded ghastly to me, though - not to mention like evidence of the very groupthink they vehemently deny.

[calv]

Bottom line

CCBTC was/is a CULT.

That is a hard cold fact that has to be faced!
Once it sinks in the lights start to come on....
The spiritual fraud... it didint lead us to GOD....
It seperates us from the rest of the body of Christ!

How many sit and judge to this day, using the brain wash
of cc, to look down and judge anything that dosn't line up with thier supiore knowlage ....
Those little degrees mean nothing, all we invested....
of our selfs.... Its just a lesson to be learned.
We though we found the TRUTH, we belived in it ...
and what was the end result????
Ive seen it before.... so now you have to question everything!
It is time to begin!

[steveb]

Onesimus,

I noticed earlier this evening on the CCG board you wrote that I think "not adhering to the trinity is one of the signs of group think." This is not an accurate statement about my position. I do not think that not adhering to the Trinity is, by itself, one of the signs of groupthink.

What I do think is one of the signs of groupthink is a continued adherence to, and a continued defense of, the anti-Trinitarian beliefs and culture of Community Chapel. Its theology was created by a man, Don Barnett, whose anti-Trinitarianism was in my opinion a direct outgrowth of a disturbed, controlling, and alienated personality.

As I've plainly seen on the CCG board time after time, those who continue to hold to Don Barnett's theology, like Don himself, regard an unfavorable reaction to their anti-Trinitarian, anti-mainstream stance as evidence that one has been deceived by an evil, persecuting majority, and has joined it against them. If one consciously and knowledgeably rejects their "Oneness" doctrine in favor of Trinitarian doctrine, they cannot accept mentally that you are taking a principled, Biblical stand. Instead, they are convinced you are actually motivated by a desire to persecute them individually and as a group - perhaps physically but certainly emotionally and verbally. They regard you as a personal enemy because they genuinely think you regard them, and every other individual "Oneness" believer, as a personal enemy that must be defeated.

Don essentially taught us his personal religion - it didn't come completely from either historic Christianity or from the denomination of it (the UPC) in which he had been raised. Instead it contained a significant number of features essentially created by Don himself, features he still continues to modify as he goes along. It was a personal religion that to a large degree defined itself in terms of opposition to what the majority believes, to what Don perceived to be the product of an officially established but false and oppressive orthodoxy - historic Christianity.

Don views himself, almost alone in the world, as a man who is successfully defying that oppressive orthodoxy; he believes he is completely right on any issue on which he takes a position because all of his opinions are based on the principled stand he sees himself taking in opposition to the unthinking conventionality of others. He believes that he is practically incapable of being wrong in his personal decisions as well as in his doctrine; consequently he thinks that anybody who disagrees with him in any point (even those who agree with all his other points) must be attacking him from evil motives, literally a personal enemy who is out to get him.

I think Don is, in other words, clinically paranoid - a conclusion that many others have also reached about him. I further think that by adopting his worldview, his followers unwittingly take on some of that paranoia (or maybe they already lean in that direction themselves and therefore don't recognize its unhealthiness). They have a distorted perception of faith that they band together to defend, even in the face of some pretty significant evidence of its failure (e.g., the disintegration of Don's personality and the collapse of the Chapel).

That, not merely "non-adherence" to the Trinity, is what I regard as a "sign of groupthink."

[steveb]

Just for the record, the kind of "groupthink" now being debated on the CCG board is not too similar to the kind of groupthink that I think exists there, the kind I started writing about last fall, and the kind which eventually led to my ouster from that board.

Here's a few descriptions of the kind of groupthink I meant, taken from my postings during that time (from a posting made September 6, 2005):<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I haven't claimed that this board is "a homogenous reflection of what the Chapel taught before it was destroyed." I haven't seen anybody else claiming that either.

My own concern has been that, however much disagreement there may be on other things, there does seem to be a consensus that the Chapel wasn't a cult and that God was doing something special at the Chapel, especially at the beginning before connections. Though I realize that the moderators and others probably think I am lying when I say so, I know for a fact that there are more than a few ex-Chapelites who don't share those assumptions and who feel unwelcome and hesitant to post here because they don't. I intend to be a voice for those people unless and until the moderators enforce a ban on the view that God wasn't at the Chapel - that it was instead a very definitely cultish organization that fell because of the cumulative weight of its own false doctrine. (I think God can be said to be there only to the extent that the Bible was taught there. But even then it was so twisted around so much false teaching that even that statement is misleading.) When the moderators decide to ban the view that the Chapel was cultic in its basic tendencies, and that that is the root of nearly all of the damage, hurt, confusion, and isolation that ex-Chapelites have experienced since their time at the Chapel, then I will go without protest and with a clear conscience.

Lutheranism is a separate matter, but even there I think very few would argue that an obvious consensus doesn't exist on the board against it. The old Chapel prejudice against denominational churches in general (and liturgical, sacramental churches in particular) as dead and dry comes through loud and clear, and it is plain that those who actually think that most Chapelites were definitely wrong about those churches aren't very welcome here either. But again, I know for a fact that there are other ex-Chapelites beside myself who have concluded that the average Chapelite was misled about that, even though they aren't Lutheran. They can plainly see the blind Chapelite hostility on the board that attacks those who write firmly and favorably of another church's doctrine instead of continuing to hold most of the Chapel's beliefs intact wherever they have happened to end up.

So I have to continue to disagree that there isn't a sort of group-think operating here that has carried over from the Chapel straight to this board [i.e., the CCG board]. There is a huge blind spot that sees the Chapel as teaching (especially at its start) "scripture alone" and nearly all other churches as teaching theology or "doctrines of men," and frankly I think that's just ridiculous.</font></blockquote>

[steveb]

More on the "groupthink" debate now taking place on the CCG board...

Here's my response to a remarkable expression of groupthink by Greg Still. He had written this at the same time as the above posting last September in a demand that I be banned from the board:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I think he crossed the line by posting against this site. You can't claim rights to belong to one site/organization while also speaking against it at another site/organization.</font></blockquote>Here is my response from September 6:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Good grief. I've never understood my participation here, not even on the very first day, as implying that I "belong to" this site, much less that it's an "organization" anybody could belong to even if they wanted to. This seems to plainly betray the very thinking that others here are denying even exists - that this is a site with a fairly rigid, if unspoken, standard of conformity or membership - the implicit demand that you conform and "belong to" it or you're out of here.

Whether you guys like it or not, I belonged to the Chapel. That's the only "belonging to" that I previously knew to matter here. I post about my conclusions about the Chapel and its doctrines and practices - doctrines and practices that I sincerely believed and tried to follow for nearly twenty years (ten as a member and then ten more while trying to find another church to belong to consistent with my Chapel assumptions about Christianity.) It didn't work out, and it became plainer and plainer to me that my Chapel doctrinal preconceptions were the problem - they weren't jibing with the reality of either the Bible or the history of the church at large. I gradually become convinced that something else - the doctrine of another church - was true instead. If no consensus exists that this is impossible, and that anyone who says not only that it's possible but has happened to him is obviously a liar in the service of an "agenda," then why are people practically standing in line all over the board to urge the moderators to kick that person off the board?</font></blockquote>

[steveb]

Somewhat related to the debate on groupthink on the CCG board is the consistent misrepresentation (in spite of explicit corrections from me) about the place my present Lutheran beliefs play in my opinion about the Chapel's cultishness.

For example, just today in the CCG thread on groupthink, Dave Kenady posted these remarks:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">...I have always found it very suspicious that [Steve Born's] independant [sic] study resulted in a mirror reflection of the theology he was taught in the Lutheran church, the church to which he returned.</font></blockquote>The fact of the matter is that I came to the conclusion that both the Chapel's Pentecostalism and its anti-Trinitarianism were wrong independently of any influence from my Lutheran upbringing. During that time, I still thought that the Lutheran church was dead, dry, and wrong. Here's what I've written to Dave Kenady himself about it, again from just last fall:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">...I didn't come to my present opinions about the Chapel's cultishness through any influence from Lutheran doctrine. I had concluded that the Chapel was definitely aberrant while I still thought liturgical, sacramental churches were dead and dry. It was less than three years ago (late 2002) that I even began to look with interest at Lutheran doctrine and practice, and less than two years ago (late 2003) that I actually became a member of the Lutheran church. By contrast, it was more than six years ago that I was fully persuaded the Chapel was cultic (by the middle of 1999). I had learned a sound Biblical view of the Holy Spirit's role and work from the teaching of Baptists and Presbyterians. From the Reformed, I had learned a sound Biblical view of the Godhead, and of the nature of Christ. Lutheranism has greatly added to my understanding in several areas -- most notably the nature of salvation by grace through faith, the distinction between Law and Gospel, and the Lord's Supper -- but it isn't anything I'm trying to sell as a necessary step out of the confusion of the Chapel and its isolating, unstable Oneness Pentecostal heritage.

In other words, there is a broad consensus among other Christian churches about what is and what isn't a cult, doctrinally or otherwise, and an extensive body of literature about it. That was plenty sufficient for me to see a number of obvious truth about my situation once the Chapel blinders were knocked off of me by the way connections destroyed the Chapel. Lutheranism in itself didn't add anything in particular to my understanding of how the Chapel was cultic.</font></blockquote>Finally, here's a short response to Harry Smith I made along the same lines last November:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">...my conclusions about the Chapel's doctrine weren't motivated by my Lutheran convictions. In fact, it is worth noting at this point that when I came to the conclusion that the Chapel's theology was seriously off in more than just connections, I wasn't a Lutheran and hadn't even begun thinking about returning to the Lutheran church. Instead that conclusion was based upon insights that I gleaned from reading non-Lutheran writers, teachers, and theologians.

There is a common Christian consensus out there about these matters. The doctrinal conclusions to which I came about the Chapel's teaching and practices and that I discuss here are not at all unique to Lutheranism.</font></blockquote>

[steveb]

Beware of those who would entangle and bind your faith with rules contrived from human reasoning. The CCG board is still alive with vocal and very persistent advocates of such legalism.

Lanny Peterson, formerly a junior elder of Community Chapel, now an elder at New Heart Church in Federal Way, WA:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">'I think Christians should totally abstain from all alcohol.'

'In any warfare one must take sides. Now the liquor industry makes millions of $$$$ upon the misery of untold millions of people. Should we help them?'

'...you think supporting this corrupt industry by buying their product is compatible with God's kingdom?'

'...Wake up, Christians.'</font></blockquote>Joel Jurasek, former Chapelite, now a member of no church but who is eager to instruct members of churches about what their standards should be:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">'I personally think the bible teaches us to stay away from alcoholic drink...'

'I am set against anyone drinking alcohol...'

'This would lead me to believe that it would be wrong to do "a little" of anything in the list.......like drink.'

'...I believe the bible is written for those who want to know the truth. It is written in such a way that those who refuse to "see it" are going to be able to think they are on firm ground..ie God has given us enough rope to hang ourself if we wish.'</font></blockquote>Lanny Peterson thinks that his ministry of the Gospel of Christ involves telling people that if they don't abstain from drinking they are choosing the wrong side in a spiritual war, a result of them being asleep in their faith.

Joel Jurasek sees knowing "the truth" as figuring out and obeying the right rules - rules that God has deceptively packaged in the Bible so that if sinners seeking hope in it don't already agree with all of them, they will only get enough rope to hang themselves with. Amazing. What a picture of God to live with.

Here is what the Bible actually teaches about philosophies of abstention and about observing humanly-contrived rules:<blockquote>As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

...Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
(Colossians 2:6-8, 16-23 KJV)</blockquote>

[movinon]

You know, I simply have no patience for the likes of Peterson and Jurasek...the next thing you know, they'll be asking which side of the spiritual warfare the demons of pork are on!!!

Honestly, lust would be a far better topic for them to hammer on......

To quote an old friend of ours, "Ship of fools!!"

mo

[calv]

The Washington Post's Mensa Invitational once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting, or changing one letter, and supply a new definition.
Here are this year's {2005} winners:*


1.* Cashtration (n.):* The act of buying a house, which renders the subject financially impotent for an indefinite period of time.

2.* Ignoranus:* A person who's both stupid and an <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>.*

3 .* Intaxication:* Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with.

4.* Reintarnation:* Coming back to life as a hillbilly.*

5.* Bozone (n.):* The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating.* The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.*

6.* Foreploy:* Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of having sex.*

7.* Giraffiti:* Vandalism spray-painted very, very high.

8.* Sarchasm:* The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.*

9.* Inoculatte:* To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.*

10.* Hipatitis:* Terminal coolness.

11.* Osteopornosis:* A degenerate disease.* (This one got extra credit.)*

12.* Karmageddon:* It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right?* And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.*

13.* Decafalon (n.):* The grueling event of getting through the day consuming only things that are good for you.*

14.* Glibido:* All talk and no action.*

15.* Dopeler effect:* The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.

16.* Arachnoleptic fit (n.):* The frantic dance performed just after you've accidentally walked through a spider web.*

17.* Beelzebug (n.):* Satan in the form of a mosquito, that gets into your bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out.*

18.* Caterpallor (n.):* The color you turn after finding half a worm in the fruit y ou're eating*

I wonder if we could think of a few useing chapelisms?

[calv]

megaception

a connection to really big deception

[calv]

congasam

a very spiritual experiance

(orgnection)

[steveb]

Classic Bob Sackett, from the "Misc Pentecostal stuff" thread in the "Pentecostal" topic area of the CCG board:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I see a tendency for over weight needy women to get into flag waving and dream interpetation. And then one can end up in a real mess.</font></blockquote>I actually kind of agree with him on this, although he doesn't see that this is of course just an extension of the classic and pervasive Pentecostal problem of the movement being herded back and forth, pillar to post, by the loudest, most self-indulgent, and most emotional people among them. If you base a movement on that which appeals most to overweight needy women, one shouldn't be surprised that they dominate its practices. The subjective, self-centered approach is after all the order of the day in our age:<blockquote>But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
(2 Timothy 3:1-9)</blockquote>BTW, one could also observe that there is a tendency in the Pentecostal world for bigoted, insecure, and ignorant men to get into teaching theology. And then one does end up in a real mess.

[calv]

BEHOLD:
My sons and daughters
You have been thru a time of testing, I have seen your struggle! Rest in me and I will be your strength!
Beware of those who would decive you with worldly thinking , I will judge them. I see thier mocking!
But you my beloved are a gem! a polished stone, refined in the fire.
I see the place that you are in .... take one step forward and you will no longer be there!
Listen to my voice and tell my people what you hear!
Thus sayeth the prophet!

Prophesy is speaking the things of the Lord!
A lot of people get wraped up in speaking over people cause It makes them feel important, but It,s not hard to miss struggles we all have... a needey person looking for an answer percives someone "knows God more" and get's special knowlage from him just for them!!!!

Dreams:
revel what's in our subconcious... they say a lot about us. Id trust the psyoanilitycal before Id trust the "spiritual". I can go get my palm read too!

People get so wraped up in themselfs and what they "know" because of the supernatural teaching they had!
It tends to draw them futher from God .... the enemys perfect trick .... it still works after all they have seen!?!?
Just dismiss anything that dosn't fit "the program"!
.

[calv]

TOO much of anything isn't good!
It's called abuse.
It can be sex,food,drugs, alcohol and yes even religion!
.... they are things we abuse ourselfs with. Often other people taught us how to abuse but soon we were hooked and could see no other way to live .... the addiction became a way of life! We looked at others and said to ourselfs" at least Im not like them".... but deep down we knew we were trapped. We sought something out to find freedom and instead became slaves to the very thing we though was liberating us.
Life becomes all about justifying the abuse that is happening in our lives. We use to be victums but now we are vollenteers and make others that look up to us the victums.
It is a vicious cycle that must end!
But How???
By pointing it out, by talking about it!
Yes it stirs the addicts up! They belive what they have is thier salvation! But they have it all mixed up! God is our salvation not our goldencalf religion thats wraped around thier hearts.
The more I learn the less I know!
One simple lesson I learned .... If it comes from the chapel, youll get burned!
I don't see freedom there, I see the same things I saw 20 yrs ago .... but now I know where IT leads and how very powerful the deception can be!

[calv]

Red light on the dashboard....
just ignore it, it will go away!

Watching someone watch someone else
How obvious can it be, but they still don't see
the same ol thing still has a hold
IT just won't let go

It is a choice to open you eyes
and see what you don't want to
With all the faith they have in God
why don't they really trust Him?

Is what you belive something so special
that only you can understand it?
You are diffent than all the rest because of your knowlage and own understanding?

Select only what works for you
don't live with the unknown
will you choose your own answers
or give it to God
one day at a time

Learn from the past
don't make the same mistakes
if you always do what you did
youll get what you always got!

[calv]

Bob Sackett wrote:
I can go into a new church and just within a matter of an hour can tell you where they are at and what is really WRONG with the main leader. So far two of these churchs have crashed and burned.Bob Sackett

cc and coa????http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[movinon]

Nothing like a good dose of self confidence, huh? NOT! To make such a judgement so quickly is very typical of the mindset I have gladly left behind. I certainly hope that others afford me more mercy in such circumstances.

mo

[calv]

Signs and wonders
visions and dreams
swirling around in the spiritual clouds
words of knowlage
deep understanding

crowds of people knocked down in the spirit
out of thin air feathers appear

Is that what it takes to really belive?
Can you still belive without all of that?
Sometimes He says no
we don't get healed but still belive
nothing great happens
but still his voice is heard
God uses whom ever he chooses
the greatest miricals are the one nobody can see.

Its all about them .... how mush they "know"!
But what about God?
Am I enough just as I am?
Does he still love me
in spite of what I belive!

The mistakes that Ive made....
He turned and ran to me, when I turned aroud
held me in his arms and said "son I still love you"!
Is whats in our heart more than what's in this world?

The crrappp I belived so long ago
what a deception , looking for something
beware what you find!
It might fill the void
It might take your life!

[calv]

Just like an acid trip
everythings is so real
brain chemestry gets alterd
Is it evil or is it good?
Is it spiritual?

I sure saw a lot of things at cc!
Did we all see the same stuff? I don't think so!
The mind is an amazing thing, so easily twisted and plyable.
Emotions and body chemestry....
our early formitive years.
Insecureties
group-think
Belonging to something that is powerful!
Beliving in something that is "real"!?!
Connected!

.... but it is never enough
I have to have MORE!!!
It's just so wonderful
if I don't get my fix....

Waking up from a bad dream
to find out it's real!
How do you find your way back?
Where did this begin?
Where will it end?

[calv]

EMOTIONAL RESCUE
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Is there nothing I can say
Nothing I can do
To change your mind
I'm so in love with you
You're too deep in
You can't get out
You're just a poor girl in a rich man's house
Yeah, baby, I'm crying over you

Don't you know promises were never made to keep?
Just like the night, dissolve in sleep
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
I'll come to your emotional rescue

Yeah, the other night, crying
Crying baby, yeah I'm crying
Yeah I'm like a child baby
I'm like a child baby
Child yeah, I'm like a child, like a child
Like a child

You think you're one of a special breed
You think that you're his pet Pekinese
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
I'll come to your emotional rescue

I was dreaming last night
Last night I was dreaming
How you'd be mine, but I was crying
Like a child, yeah, I was crying
Crying like a child
You will be mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, all mine
You could be mine, could be mine
Be mine, all mine

I come to you, so silent in the night
So stealthy, so animal quiet
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
I'll come to your emotional rescue

Yeah, you should be mine, mine, whew
Yes, you could be mine
Tonight and every night
I will be your knight in shining armour
Coming to your emotional rescue
You will be mine, you will be mine, all mine
You will be mine, you will be mine, all mine
I will be your knight in shining armour
Riding across the desert with a fine Arab charger

[steveb]

That was great, Calv--<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Bob Sackett wrote:
I can go into a new church and just within a matter of an hour can tell you where they are at and what is really WRONG with the main leader. So far two of these churchs have crashed and burned.Bob Sackett

cc and coa???? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif</font></blockquote>

Hee hee. More inimitable humour from Bob.

You know he couldn't have meant COA, though - it took him sixteen years to figure out that something was "really WRONG with the main leader" there. Funny that it takes him only an hour in other churches, isn't it?

[calv]

Corn From The Sky

Since 1892 kernels of corn have been falling on houses along Pleasant Acres Drive in Evans, Colorado, just south of Greeley. Gary Bryan, who lives there, says, "I'd probably have a ton of it if I picked it all up." Once in a while a pinto bean appears amid the corn.

The problem is that there are no cornfields near the houses, and the nearest grain elevator is five miles away. Nobody can figure out where the corn could be coming from. All the witnesses can say is that from time to time it is seen falling from the sky.

When the press heard the story in September 1986, reporters from the area newspapers and television channels came to the site and saw the bizarre phenomenon for themselves. As the corn was falling, they searched for a prankster with a slingshot but found none.

People who hadn't seen the fall with their own eyes didn't believe it - until they saw it themselves. As one convert, Eldred McClintock, told the Rocky Mountain News, "It really came down. I've seen it now and I believe it."

[calv]

In May of 1981, residents in the southern Greece city of Naphlion woke up to a rain of green frogs. Thousands of the little creatures, weighing only a few ounces each, plopped out of the sky and flopped in the streets.

Scientists at the Greek Meteorological Institute, Athens, trotted out the usual explanation. A whirlwind out of North Africa had sucked the frogs from a marsh and wafted them some six hundred miles across the Mediterranean to drop them at Naphlion's doorstep.

Remarkably, few of the frogs died from their violent journey. In fact, they adapted quite well to their new surroundings. Some of the local citizens, however, report trouble sleeping at night: Their amphibious immigrants make too much noise.

[calv]

Why yes! It's as wonderful as chapel !
Thank you for all youve done to help make it so!

[steveb]

Hee, hee! It's remarkable how placid people become when their group starts punishing members who voice doubts about the party line.

<center>http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif</center>
<hr width=75% size=2><center><table><tr><td><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)</TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">Steve Born</font></font></TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</td></tr></table></center>

[calv]

still http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif








http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
welcome to the rubber room

[calv]

the rudeness is still there
just have to push the right buttons
but whats the use?

[calv]

community chapel was a cult
ccg is pro cc
does that make it a cult too?

remember what we bought into there?
what happened?

so are you ignorant?
in denial?
minimizing what happend?
or just plain that stupid?

some old timers havent changed a bit!
same ol game they played all along, so full of themselfs .... nothing changes!

[calv]

those kind of post go over real big on ccg!

I tried it, I pretty much knew what to expect!
like pouring gasoline on a fire!

Behind the thin faucade of christlikeness the acid boils,
It's an attack of "the enemy"!
Look how great we are, see how wise we are, God's special chosen ones!

Thats some sick ****e over there!
I can see now how powerful a deception IT IS !

[steveb]

<font color="0000ff">"Thats some sick ****e over there!
I can see now how powerful a deception IT IS !"</font>

Yes, I agree of course. It's sad. Pointing out that the emperor has no clothes will always be considered rude and mean-spirited by the emperor's toadies, but that doesn't make it any less necessary if we want to walk in the truth and freedom of the gospel rather than in the darkness of pride and willful blindness.

Over there on the CCG board they're blinded by a theological system that has already been, in the exposure of Don's self-deception and in the Chapel's disintegration 18 years ago, thoroughly and publicly shown to be a damaging fraud. That system of belief decieved people and led them into the control of a deluded and disturbed man and so of course into confusion, instability, and isolation from the rest of the church.

To continue to defend that, and to criticize those who freed themselves from it and want to free others, is what I myself consider rude and mean-spirited.

[steveb]

Another incomprehensible rant today on the CCG board -

Lanny Peterson, former junior elder of the Chapel, says that Calvin is always implying that there is some "DEEP DARK SECRET" in the Chapel's past:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I continually read posts from certain people (like Calvin) who imply that there was some DEEP DARK SECRET that is being hidden and covered up. Some ghastly scandle that somehow nullifies every positive testimony that is posted on this board. If you have gone on from 1985 and put the past mistakes behind you you are somehow in denial.</font></blockquote>Now, to me, the incredible thing is that the posts of Calv's that elicited this reaction are as follows:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">So is it really all over?

Is it fixed and all better?

I don't think so...

========================

Kiss the boo boo's so they all go away!

sorry it doesn't work!</font></blockquote>That's it! Really! Two posts with a total of five lines, and not one reference to a secret in there, deep, dark, or otherwise. It should have been obvious Calv wasn't talking about secrets or hidden things from the past, but about the visibly broken people of today who are being ignored or patronized by the CCG board's smiley-face version of Christianity - more denial of the effects of the Chapel and its teaching.

So - why the insanely defensive reaction by Lanny about hidden secrets and scandals from the past that nullify positive testimonies today? The mental mechanism at work seems almost too obvious to need any further comment. The Lanny doth protest too much, methinks.

[Helpful Web reference:<blockquote>In American English, the phrase "the lady doth protest too much" definitely indicates that you think the subject's ardent denial of a proposition is meant to cover up its embarrassing truth. Taken from the Shakespearean phrase in Hamlet, Act 3 scene 2, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks."
from http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=646636, ]</blockquote><hr width=75% size=2><center><table><tr><td><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)</TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">Steve Born</font></font></TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</td></tr></table></center>

(Message edited by steveb on July 25, 2006)

[calv]

WoW

my confidince in DAVE as moderator has once again really been bolsterd!!!!

sure we really welcme everythig on ccg

unless its by calvin or SB....

I told a little security story....
shhh..... a SECRET!!!!!
so what
I dosn't really matter
unless someone really wants to know what cc was like!?!?
maybe there's things some people never knew

(like how much spiritual boinking was going on!!!)

[movinon]

Calv,

Your use of the term "spiritual boinking" cracks me up!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

mo

[calv]

normal boinking is a sin !





unless you have "special" revelation!!!!!!

[movinon]

Like you said in one of your other posts, the world seems so much smarter than God's people most of the time. I think that is a shame upon us all, really. But, what I think it really says is that when people want something, they will go to great lengths to firstly, deceive themselves, then try to convince everyone around them that what they are doing is really not what they are doing! As someone I know says, "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.,....it is more than likely a duck!" If it looks weird, aberrant, and dangerous....that's because it is.

mo

[steveb]

I had a rueful laugh this morning when I read this item on the CCG board by a participant named "westwood:"<blockquote><font color="0000ff">This is one of the things that I really appreciate about this board. All of the different points of view and things that people have learned from God and the school of hard knocks. It really helps and blesses me.</font></blockquote>Yes, you can read and learn from all points of view there, except, that is, for any that include the opinion that we went through the school of hard knocks because the denominational churches were right after all about Chapel doctrine being seductive and cultic.

If you express the view that their Oneness Pentecostal doctrine is full of harmful and false teaching, and that consequently anybody who advocates it is perpetuating to one degree or another the misbeliefs that produced the isolation, then the misdirection, then the wackiness, then the uncertainty, then the confusion, then the turmoil, and then ultimately the disaster at the Chapel, the mindguards of the Chapel tradition will not rest easy until your viewpoint is blocked, and you personally are labeled as "working against God" and banned, unable to answer the misrepresentations and distortions about you and your beliefs that they are then free to spread. The CCG participants are truly blessed; they now know they are just as secure and protected as they were at the Chapel from the expression of any view that takes a serious look at Chapel doctrine in its entirety as being the root of the problems they've experienced.

So I think I'll take this opportunity to say again that though the moderator Dave Kenady and many others on the CCG board are very angry with me, I'm not angry with them. Those whose views now dominate the board think that I'm at war with them and that I'm full of malice toward them, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm sad for them, and if they could only forget for a few hours their anger at those who earnestly believe Trinitarian doctrine, I'd be glad to sit down with any of them to talk about whatever they'd want. My views were never motivated by anger (except maybe at myself for having been so stupid and unthinking to have been seduced by one of the most blatant false doctrines of all), nor by a need to attack individuals, as they think; nor do I hold it against those who have cut me off from their number. I myself always wanted to keep communication open with those whom I disagreed - it was they who would not have it.

I do have to confess a small fear that others may come to be influenced by the CCG view of me - a view that is distorted by the small-minded and fearful "us vs. them" animosity of the Chapel worldview. It does hurt a little that everybody (seemingly) on that board has acquiesced in that old Chapel tactic of publicly labeling anybody who thinks Chapel doctrine is false as an "attacker" who is "bitter," and then uniting in disfellowshipping and ignoring that one. It definitely gives one a different perspective on the "special bond of love" that is supposed to exist among those who were once members of the Chapel, as well as on how inclusive of varied viewpoints about the Chapel the CCG board really is.

(Message edited by steveb on October 19, 2006)

[calv]

It's a very narrow group of "broad minded thinkers" over there!!! If you get focused enough it will carry you right back to how goood IT all was.... a nice escape from reality! In the real world CC was a huge disaster.... Id rather get my guidance from sources that had nothing to do with CC, but fully understand the way cults like CC work! No we werent the first twisted church and we won't be the last!
So the sick are gonna heal the sick with the same crap the made them sick in the first place!?!?! It must be working if they all say so? Just the way IT all worked before???
Seduction pulls ya right in
makes you feel good
gives you a cookie
then slits yer throat