Why is Jesusb deity so important

[steve (steve)]

An interesting collection of postings on the CCG board (Community Chapel Gathering) the last week or so...

Participant A writes, "...I always understood Christ to be a living example for me, not just a supernatural expression of unattainable deified perfection."

Participant B writes in another thread,<blockquote>...if we can grasp the relationship Jesus had with his father then we too can start a relationship with the father and with Jesus that is much deeper than we have experienced in the last 2,000 years. ie we can be one with them.</blockquote>Participant C writes in response to Participant B's posting,<blockquote>This really is what it is all about. So many of the debates bypass the reason for seeking the truth--that is, to have a deeper relationship with God. I agree, there is great transforming power in seeing the relationship of the son Jesus, with his Father God.

So many times I hear folks staunchly defending the "deity of Jesus". I understand that we all value holding to the truth of scriptures. But what does the believing in the deity of Jesus do for anyone? I am not sure. When we submit to learning about Jesus' relationship with his father, and conforming ourselves to it--well now there is something to build your faith and your walk.</blockquote>My comments: If it's not what scripture teaches, then it is not something that one's faith can be built upon, or should be built upon.

The reason I believe Jesus is God is not because believing it meets some felt need of my own; the reason I believe Jesus is God (having existed forever as the Son with the Father in heaven before the incarnation) is that I find it taught in the scriptures, so that's what I believe.

The scriptures do not teach that our faith is built upon our success in patterning our life after Jesus' life as a man. That would be moralism - Law-based teaching that undermines the gospel that the scriptures do teach.

The scriptural gospel is that God gives us salvation because of Christ's perfect life and death in our stead, and because of our faith in that Christ.

The scriptures teach that that faith is a gift given and nourished by the Holy Spirit through hearing the apostolically-proclaimed Word of God, a gift not affected by our frequent failures in loving and obeying the Father as Christ obeyed Him.

That is why the apostolic message is called the gospel - the "good news." We don't have to earn our salvation by a life of obedience, or by always loving as we ought - efforts in which mankind had long proved it was doomed to failure. Instead salvation was given to us by God's grace, through faith in Christ, the Son of God.

It is therefore not just any faith that saves, but faith that has the proper object, the scripturally proclaimed object. That object of faith is the Son of God seen in the Bible. A mistake that prevents us from grasping the Biblical significance of the identity and the nature of the Son of God is a mistake that can misdirect and damage faith.

That is why I believe the correct understanding of the Bible's teaching concerning the Son of God is so important.

Seeing Jesus primarily as a human example for Christian life puts the focus on the believer's own effort in fulfilling that example. That's a mistaken emphasis that leads to legalism, judgmentalism, and frustration.

Seeing Jesus as God who assumed human nature and dwelt among us puts the focus on what he has done for us that we could not do for ourselves. I believe that is clearly the scriptural emphasis, the emphasis that leads to freedom and renewal in God.

Or so I have found it in my own life anyway...

[calv (calv)]

A deeper relationship with God
is it preformance based?
How good or much can I pray?
How much do I know?
Have I studied enough to be acceptable?
Am I better than the rest?

I know Ill never measue up.
I look to Jesus
He understands
He did what I never could
because of him
I can do all things
not because of what I do or think.

By looking to Jesus
I can see God
Thru him and in him.

If I am transparent
can others see God
Thru me
can they see beyond the mistakes
and the failures
do they see a heart that loves God
who came to earth as His Son
that I might know HIM

What he has done for us
that we could not do for ourselfs
freedom
and renewal
in GOD

[movinon (movinon)]

Steve,

Once again, you hit on a point that I think is very relavent to understanding why CC and groups like it do not produce the results that so many expect from the organizational structure, and also come to expect from themselves.

Faith in what Jesus did for us, that which we could not do for ourselves, is the bedrock of our salvation...not a doctrine or practice or teaching that draws people subtly or not so subtly away from the simplicity of that truth.

I found your correlation to moralism really intriguing, and quite frankly, never thought of it in those particular terms. I'll be chewing on this one for awhile.

Thanks again for a great, thought-provoking post.

mo

[calv (calv)]

If Jesus isnt God...then what did he die for?

[calv (calv)]

eat the apple eve .... and youll be just like God

[roz (roz)]

Steve:

I really appreciate your needed reminders about how we can't earn our salvation.

I was reading through the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew this weekend. In revisiting this passage, it was good to hear Christ's message again on basic do's and don'ts for those who desire to follow Him and be more like Him.

I particularly like the parts about how that if you do something for the least of these, you do it unto Him. I'm so tired of pompous Christianity; the type of Christianity where while you have your eyes closed in worship, you’re stealing a peek on occasion to see what everyone else is doing or to see if someone is watching you. I’m tired of being superficial in my relationships with the Body of Christ. Of late, I have really been convicted of this. I want the kind of Christianity where I become a servant of all; where the least of these is the greatest in heaven.

I’m tired of playing church or playing the good Christian. While it’s important to do good deeds – Christ commanded this of us – it so often comes right down to an issue of the heart. This sort of understanding humbles me and makes me want to continue to seek Him for the right kind of changes in this old heart. I think you talked about it once when you mentioned you wanted to do right not because it will earn you something, but because your heart is motivated by Him to do so. (Pardon me if I took some liberty here; I don’t remember exactly what you said or where you said it.)

Thanks for posting. I find your writings educational, motivational, and downright amusing sometimes!

Roz

[steve (steve)]

<font face="Georgia">Roz,

You write,<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I think you talked about it once when you mentioned you wanted to do right not because it will earn you something, but because your heart is motivated by Him to do so. (Pardon me if I took some liberty here; I don’t remember exactly what you said or where you said it.)</font></blockquote>I think I know what you're referring to, but I can't remember my exact words either. However, I don't think I would have put it in terms of how my heart is motivated. I don't think one ought to put to much stock in one's own heart - the Bible tells us that the heart is desperately wicked above all things. I've found that my own life confirms that. I don't really look at my spiritual life as a matter of monitoring my heart motivation to see how I'm doing.

In other words, I don't question if I'm doing things truly from my heart, or only out of a sense of duty, or maybe because of some other factor. It's not an answer I am interested in determining. In fact, I take it for granted that my efforts are always imperfect and my motives in doing anything are always questionable. I've realized that my heart is never going to be totally right in this life, nor can I ever succeed in really giving it to God. It's only the gospel of God's mercy in Christ that offers me any hope. I now see that the Biblical message is that it is only a life of constantly casting oneself upon God's mercy that will result in salvation. The only thing that God offers to us is the forgiveness of sins for the sake of Christ's righteousness. He is not offering stamps of approval or bonus points for our own righteousness. As long as we have God's forgiveness of sins because of our faith in Christ, we have everything that God has for us. There is no "deeper life" or "closer walk" than that. If we've been led into thinking there is (as we were at the Chapel), then most likely we've been led into spiritual pride or legalism or both.

Or at least that's the way I think nowadays, and so far I've seen no Biblical reason why I should change it.</font>

[roz (roz)]

I appreciate your thoughts, Steve, really I do.

This weekend at church, a woman boldly stood up during the sermon and asked the pastor how she could feel worthy before God. The only answer in my mind is that we are only worthy through Him. In essence, we are NOT worthy, yet in Him, we are.

I'm still chewing on this. When I hear your words, the only question that comes to my mind is -- what is there to motivate us to do right if our righteousness is as filthy rags?

Even the world understands that good morals and doing right result in a "better" life. Is this what you meant by "moralism" in your other post? Help me here. Steve, what motivates you to do right?

[steve (steve)]

<font face="Georgia">Roz,

I don't have too much time to write today (why do people always ask me really good questions on days like this?), but my answer in brief is that I'm motivated to do right by love and gratitude toward God for saving me by sending Jesus to die for me, taking away the penalty that was rightfully mine.

My motivation for doing good, however, is something different than my righteousness before God. That motivation often fails me in spite of my better, clearer moments in it.

My righteousness before God, on the other hand, is nothing other than Christ's life and death for me, which God in his mercy and grace counts as my righteousness - mine by faith. Because of that faith, given through the Gospel in Word and Sacrament, I am forgiven of my sins and always stand clean and righteous before God.

A lot more could be said about this, but like I said, I don't have the time to write about it today - I hope to elaborate more on it tomorrow or perhaps Friday.</font>

[movinon (movinon)]

Roz,

You asked Steve what motivates him to do right...a good question for all of us. I like Steve's simple answer because it is really the essence of the Gospel message.

Also, I think, to those who have chosen to follow Christ, we develop a "taste" for doing good because really, doing good produces good fruits in our lives. We are robbed of this place of truth and rest by twisted idealogies that teach us that we must continually strive for something we can never earn and that we must measure our progress towards that striving by the measure of our own achievements, spiritual and otherwise.

The truth is so simple and so direct.

mo

[steve (steve)]

<font face="Georgia">Roz,

I wanted to elaborate a little bit more on the questions in your latest posting, and now I have the time.

You had written,<blockquote><font color="0000ff">This weekend at church, a woman boldly stood up during the sermon and asked the pastor how she could feel worthy before God. The only answer in my mind is that we are only worthy through Him. In essence, we are NOT worthy, yet in Him, we are.</font></blockquote>That's pretty interesting that that woman would do that. You mean she interrupted the sermon and asked her question out of nowhere? Was she a regular member or a visitor? Was it in response to anything in the sermon? How did your pastor respond?

I agree with the answer you had in your mind. The pertinent thing, though, was that the woman did not understand as a Christian what you understood; she didn't understand that she isn't supposed to feel worthy in herself, but only in Christ. In fact, it's not so much a matter of feeling - feelings can often betray us - as it is of knowing and believing the Gospel. It seems that a lot of people today do not really understand what the Gospel is, and as a result don't understand what the Christian life is either.

You had also asked,<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Even the world understands that good morals and doing right result in a "better" life. Is this what you meant by "moralism" in your other post?</font></blockquote>Yes, basically it is. The Law of God is still valid, and still has its uses, but it is not the principle by which we are made worthy or stand righteous in God's eyes.

To borrow some remarks from classic Lutheran theology, one can say that the Law was given for three reasons:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">first, that thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars; secondly, that men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins; thirdly, that after they are regenerate and much of the flesh notwithstanding cleaves to them, they might on this account have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life.
(Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Article VI)</font></blockquote>In modern language (from another, non-Lutheran source, by the way), these three "uses of the Law" are summed up as:<blockquote><font color="0000ff"> An external discipline, necessary to restrain those who are not saved (and in some cases those who are saved, because of their remaining temptation to sin). A standard that convicts us of sin, and makes us realize our need of God's grace. A standard for those who are saved, to help them in living in accordance with God's will.(Adapted from the page titled "How do Christians Act?" (http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/law.html) on the Web site for the soc.religion.christian newsgroup (http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/index.html).)</font></blockquote>Still more simply, these are often summed up as the "civil, theological, and pedagogical" uses of the Law.

However, too much of modern preaching and teaching (as well as the Roman Catholic teaching that Luther fought) gives the impression that keeping of the Law (in one form or another) is tied directly to one's worthiness in God's eyes. That is what I refer to as "moralism." It is looking too much to our performance against standards and "principles" and not enough to the grace of God given to us through the hearing of the Word (as preached by Christ's ministers), through our baptism, and through the Lord's Supper.

Does this help you to understand what I've been trying to say?</font>

[roz (roz)]

Steve:

I'm really listening to you. Thanks for taking the time to give detailed answers.

Yes, the woman stood up in response to the sermon. Honestly, I can't remember exactly what he was saying before she stood up, but she was tearful and seemed discouraged. In an attempt to answer her, he started to say that we are all broken pots, we all have cracks. I actually piped up at that point and added something like, "Only through Him are we worthy." He repeated what I said and actually thanked her for speaking up. I talked to her a week later and she said a lot of people talked to her and said they were feeling the same things. Unfortunately, this frustrated feeling of never quite measuring up is pervasive in churchianity.

I can honestly say at this point in my life I am trying to do right because my life is better when I do. It's simply a fact; I understand it's the "civil, theological, and pedagogical" uses of the Law but that doesn't scare me. I honestly never think in my mind that if I help that lady cross the street, God will be more pleased with me. I know I will be more pleased with myself. Somehow, the world just seems to revolve in a more orderly fashion when I get out of "me" mode and really try to serve others.

I know I can never measure up, but I'm not discouraged by that. I'm ever in awe of His wonderful, abiding grace in my life. I'm still going to do what I can do to reach out and affect the lives of others even in the smallest of ways. (You know, Steve, your wife is very much like that and she has always been a wonderful role model to me.)

BTW, do you think we are on the same page or am I still missing something you're trying to say?

roz

[steve (steve)]

<font face="Georgia">Roz,

Yes, I think we're on the same page.

What I am trying to say (and the reason I asked if the woman was responding to anything in the sermon) is that I think that part of the cause of "the frustrated feeling of never quite measuring up" that you wrote about is that the proper distinction between law and gospel is not widely understood - it's not being taught by most churches. Instead of nourishing their flock with the gospel, what most pastors are really doing is preaching the law in a disguised form - not intentionally of course but because they're confused or poorly taught on the issue themselves.

The result of preaching the law is either a prideful, judgmental church (when people think they're succeeding in keeping the law a lot better than most other folks) or a condemned, discouraged church (when people realize they can never keep the law well enough to really meet God's standards). Therefore, failing to truly offer people the gospel (in both Word and sacrament) is, in my opinion, at the root of "churchianity's" repulsiveness.</font>

[roz (roz)]

Wow, Steve, this is really eye-opening. I feel enlightened. You hit the nail on the head. Preachers are missing the mark somewhat and I like your example of the two extremes.

I will be listening with new ears to this weekend's sermons. Lots to chew on here...

Thanks!
roz

[steve (steve)]

"Lots to chew on here..."

Yes, it also brings us back full circle to the initial posting of this thread. I was commenting on the reasons that Chapelites think Jesus is merely a man and can't accept his full deity - reasons such as this:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">"So many times I hear folks staunchly defending the "deity of Jesus". I understand that we all value holding to the truth of scriptures. But what does the believing in the deity of Jesus do for anyone? I am not sure. When we submit to learning about Jesus' relationship with his father, and conforming ourselves to it--well now there is something to build your faith and your walk."</font></blockquote>That statement is really all about obeying law, not about faith in the gospel that tells us Jesus, in our stead, has paid the penalty for violating the law. To do that, Jesus of course fully obeyed the law in his relationship with the Father, but we can't. By shunting aside the claim that Jesus accomplished for us what we can not do ourselves, Chapelites are rejecting Christ's righteousness and clinging to their own. They choose works-righteousness instead of faith.

It shows how errors in one's beliefs about who Jesus is truly can be of salvific importance.

[steve (steve)]

<center><font color="119911">bump</font></center><hr width=75% size=2><center><table><tr><td><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)</TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">Steve Born</font></font></TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</td></tr></table></center>

[steveb (steveb)]

bump

[steveb]

bump

[steveb]

bump

[steveb]

...Bringing this back up to the top. It is one of four core threads that I feel contain my basic message about Community Chapel and Bible Training Center, a Oneness Pentecostal church of which I was a member for nearly ten years. The others are these:

<center>Brief Introduction to this Topic (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/13223.html?1144690015)

Where Did the Chapel Err? (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16957.html?1143905830)

Was Community Chapel a Cult? (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/13109.html?1143905915)</center>

<center><hr width=75% size=2><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)<font face="Georgia"><font size="-1"><font color="119911">Steve Born</font></font></font><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</center>

(Message edited by steveb on April 24, 2006)

[steveb]

It's interesting - but reading the CCG board this morning, I realized I no longer have the slightest itch to address the various Oneness and JING ("Jesus is not God") interpretations of the Bible that they are continually trying to float. It is clear to me that they are wandering around in mental and spiritual confusion, hardly even understanding the words on whatever page of the Bible they happen to be reading, much less the context of a particular passage, and mostly unable to agree with anybody else there on what they think they do understand. They really are sheep without a shepherd; there is no unified understanding among them of what the Lord would actually teach them on this issue (or on any other, for that matter). I am so glad I haven't ended up in the same place.

Fools will be fools
And wise will be wise
But I will look this world
Straight in the eyes

I believe in a better way.
I believe in a better way.

What good is a man
Who won't take a stand
What good is a cynic
With no better plan

I believe in a better way.
I believe in a better way.

(Ben Harper, "Better Way" from the CD Both Sides of the Gun, Virgin Records America, Inc., 2006.)

[calv]

gonna be "one" with God....

not in this lifetime!
get a grip!!!!

the very understanding of who God is gets lost in the mixed up jumble of unfolding revelations of cc type doctrines!

God is God
we are Not

messin with some powerful deception
a "angel" of LIGHT!
understanding what can never be measured, always existed, and created us .....
ya were gonna get it all figured out! and then not have a clue what it is really all about !

[steveb]

I've edited the lead article in this thread and put it into in the contents (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/toc.htm) of my "Chapel Reflections" site on the Web (linked to below in the footer). Here's a direct link to it:<center>Why Is Jesus' Deity So Important? (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/WhyIsJesusDeitySoImportant.htm)</center><hr width=75% size=2><center><table><tr><td><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)</TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">Steve Born</font></font></TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</td></tr></table></center>

[steveb]

<center>-- Bumping this up to the top for easier access --</center>

[This site is now primarily an archive of past postings about Community Chapel. Please see the ex-CCBTC discussion board (http://members6.boardost.com/exccbtc) for current postings on Chapel doctrine and its continuing influence.]

---Steve