PDA

View Full Version : Was Community Chapel a Cult


steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 04:48 AM
How do you answer this question?

The following essay is my answer:

From the late '70's to the late '80's, I belonged to a Pentecostal church in the Seattle, Washington, area named Community Chapel and Bible Training Center whose pastor and founder was a man named Don Barnett. Its members usually referred to this church simply as "the Chapel." When I became a member of the Chapel in 1978 I thought it was the best church I had ever encountered or heard of up until that time. In 1988, after its teaching and practices had grown increasingly bizarre, it collapsed when it was revealed that the pastor had been sleeping with at least two or three women of the church.

During the Chapel's existence it was frequently labeled as cultish by those in other churches, a label I of course completely rejected. After its collapse, however, I found I had to confront for myself the question, "Was Community Chapel a cult?"

The question was, I now found, highly relevant to me as I struggled to find my place in the Christian world following the collapse of the Chapel. After a few years of trying and failing to find another church in which I felt as comfortable as at the Chapel, I had to ask myself why. What was it about my expectations of church that were so hard to satisfy - especially given the fact that I could see many others in many different kinds of churches who were deeply satisfied by their churches? What need of my own was satisfied by the Chapel that was failing to be met by these other churches? Were all churches except the Chapel simply inadequate? Or were my expectations maybe out of kilter? Was I expecting the wrong things from church? Had legitimate spiritual needs been manipulated and damaged by the Chapel so that now my expectations or spiritual perception were permanently damaged?

In brief, if other churches were also part of the body of Christ (as indeed Don always conceded they were), then why should I feel so out of place and dissatisfied in them? In the first few years, I think I could have given several definite answers to this question - the teaching wasn't as deep, the worship wasn't as good, the people weren't as committed, and there wasn't as much true fellowship and love. I had an expectation that church should be like my early days in the Chapel - somehow more "alive," with more zeal, more prayer, more heart-felt worship, more obvious commitment to the Word taught in the church.

On this view of it, I had perhaps made a mistake in leaving the Chapel and seeking out other churches instead of following Don into COA after the Chapel split. He was, after all, the one who had the "anointing" to receive and preach the truths upon which the Chapel had been founded, and it was his leadership and teaching under which the worship and fellowship there had flourished.

In reality, returning to a church under Don's leadership was not something I even considered at the time. It would have been simply impossible for me, emotionally speaking, after all the revelations of his conduct and history that came out during 1988. It was all too obvious to me that this man was truly disturbed. I think it was that more than anything else that made me think of any group he led as off the beam. Rightly or wrongly, what first made me realize that the Chapel was potentially cultic was the impossibility of any longer seeing Don as a man ordained by God to pastor a church, much less as anointed to receive and teach powerful revelations for leading a unique "end-time move of God." When the magnitude and scope of Don's adulteries and other sexual misadventures were revealed during the course of 1988, it became obvious to me that if those things didn't matter and if Don was still a man of God with deep revelations, and if, on the other hand, the rest of the church world was mistaken in thinking him unfit for any spiritual office, then two fundamentally different models of Christianity were in conflict. I couldn't articulate this at the time, but dimly felt the difference. Either the Chapel was off the beam and other churches were right, or the Chapel had been right and all other churches wrong.

By way of contrast with the uncertainty I found myself, I note that the friend who first invited me to the Chapel has never doubted Don and has remained with him at COA ever since the collapse of the Chapel. For him, there was never any question of leaving Don's leadership, and he is barely open even to discussing it. He knows he belongs under Don because "Don still has the anointing." That was the sum total of his defense against my reasons for leaving the Chapel and for wanting to have nothing further to do with any group led by Don. He was not the only one from whom I heard that defense and explanation. All the people that I knew at COA, and who were willing to say anything, also were repeating some variation of it. Sometimes it was "the anointing is still on the worship" or "the anointing is still on the message," but it was always implied that the anointing was there because of Don Barnett and his teaching, and that it couldn't be found anyplace else.

So on Chapel principles I was being told to be led by "the anointing" - follow the man whose leadership and teaching could produce the powerful messages, intense worship, and emotionally close bonds among members. I was told that I should "forgive" Don's adulteries, sexual sins, and divorce, and still count him as called to pastor me and the rest of the Chapelites, and as approved of God because of the revelations he was receiving, the kind of messages he was preaching, and the kind of worship he was leading. In contrast to this, by the principles I had previously learned as a Lutheran, by the principles I was hearing in the church world at large, and by the principles I was feeling in my gut, I was being told to take a look at this leader's life and draw the obvious conclusion - he was in sin and deception, and leading his group further into sin and deception, isolating himself and them from the body of Christ and taking them further away from sound doctrine and practice.

As I realized this, the picture I had of the Chapel as compared to other churches began to change. Where previously I had viewed the teaching at the Chapel as deeper, it now seemed more like indoctrination. Where previously I had viewed the worship at the Chapel as more intense, it now seemed unhealthily emotional and manipulative. Where previously the members had seemed closer to each other and "more committed," that now seemed more like a product of regimentation and group think.

That is to say I was beginning to see the Chapel as cultish (not as a full-fledged cult) in the sociological sense, though not yet in the theological sense. The time of which I am now writing was roughly four or five years after my wife and I left the Chapel. I had not yet begun to have any doctrinal doubts in regard to the Chapel's teaching or Pentecostalism. I still spoke in tongues, and thought that the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches had the Holy Spirit in a way traditional churches did not; and I also thought that Oneness doctrine was an important Biblical truth in contrast to the "pagan corruption" that I still thought Trinitarian doctrine reflected. I was not yet worried that I had been involved in anything that was fundamentally unsound in doctrine; in fact, I still looked back at the Chapel as exemplary in the thoroughness of its Biblical teaching and scholarship. But I was becoming very concerned about what kind of marks Don's leadership may have left from the beginning on the Chapel's teaching and on its members. I was embarrassed by what the Chapel had become. Don's behavior in the last two or three years of the Chapel's existence was indefensible and the things that were now revealed seemed to indicate he had been that way since well before he founded the Chapel, that this aspect of his character was purposely hidden from the ordinary Chapel member by his wife and one or two of his closest aides. I found that I could not simply disassociate those facts from his position as founder and pastor of the Chapel.

In regard to the sociological definition of a cult, this is one definition I found on the Internet:
<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Usually, the word cult refers to a group led by a charismatic leader who has spiritual, therapeutic, or messianic pretensions, and indoctrinates the members with his or her idiosyncratic beliefs. Typically, members are dependent on the group for their emotional and financial needs and have broken off ties with those outside. The more complete the dependency and the more rigid the barriers separating members from non-believers, the more danger the cult will exploit and harm its members. <sup>1</sup></font></blockquote>
Here is another, longer definition:
<blockquote><font color="0000ff">...A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers. Although most people think of cults as being religious, they can also be found in political, athletic, philosophical, racial or psychotherapeutic arenas.
The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. It is common that a cult member is not told everything up front when joining the group, but that they are taught increasingly controlling ideas and teachings as they go. In the case of some of the more well-publicized cults that have come and gone, it is also common that the leader's ideas and demands evolve over time, becoming increasingly controlling and restrictive. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person.

A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. This is another form of mind control-instilling guilt in the members if they hold anything back within the group. The members are taught that outsiders wouldn't understand or that they would only make fun of the ideas and practices and requirements for living within the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

The three elements listed above are very successful ways to create a group mentality, an us-against-them way of looking at things. This is essential for any cult that wants to keep its members. The more afraid of the outside world the members become, the more strongly and faithfully they will keep within the safe fold of the cult. <sup>2</sup></font></blockquote>
The Chapel obviously is not fully a cult under these definitions, but some things to which we submitted were uncomfortably close to these things, particularly the "self-appointed leader with complete authority." Many definitions do regard the type of leader as the key factor in determining whether or not a group is a cult. Another example of this is found in a paper by a psychiatrist who was at one time a member of an eastern religious cult. He defines a cult as follows:
<blockquote><font color="0000ff">I am defining a cult largely on the basis of the personality of its leader. In my definition, a cult is a group that is led by a person who claims, explicitly or implicitly, to have reached human perfection; or, in the case of a religious cult, who claims unity with the divine; and therefore claims to be exempt from social or moral limitations or restrictions. In the language of psychoanalytic diagnostics, such people would be called pathological narcissists, with paranoid and megalomaniacal tendencies. Without the cult leader, there is no cult, and from my perspective, in order to understand cult followers, we must simultaneously seek to understand cult leaders. I will attempt to describe the interplay of psychological dynamics between leader and follower that can enable cult leaders to dominate and control followers and enable cult followers to be seduced and manipulated into submission. <sup>3</sup></font></blockquote>
Though again the picture does not fit fully, this comes closest to defining the sense in which the Chapel was a cult. Not that Don claimed to have reached human perfection or unity with the divine (although even here there is interesting echo of Don's "being completely superimposed on Jesus" that he was said to have experienced at one elders' retreat), but that he is probably a "pathological narcissist with paranoid and megalomaniacal tendencies" who, accordingly, manipulated his followers to their harm.

I've never studied psychology or psychiatry, and I didn't have any credentials in the mental health field (and I don't have any now), but I knew from the things that were being revealed in the press at the time of the Chapel's collapse (1988) that Don's psychological problems were not minor. They were in fact probably of a magnitude that would have been grounds for removal and mandatory treatment had he been a pastor in a normal denominational church. Even today most ex-Chapelites and current COA members remain ignorant of the extent of Don's problems. He has never faced these problems, choosing instead to cover them up from the view of others and to rationalize them to himself. Besides for the fact that this is not a characteristic of a mature leader, the problems he covers up are very serious indeed and have serious implications for the nature of any group that accepts his leadership and gathers around him in support.

In Barbara Barnett's book, The Truth Shall Set You Free, when she details the episode in which Don was arrested for exposing himself to several hotel maids in Las Vegas in 1976, she says something to the effect that "I thought he had gotten over that problem..." [My copy of the book is loaned out at the moment, so I cannot check this to get the exact wording. I hope to before I write the final version of this article.] There are hints like this throughout the book that are nowhere explained. However, in the mid-90's before the book was published, I learned that an ex-Chapelite friend of mine had been asked to help Barbara edit and proofread the book in order to help it find a publisher. My friend said she had been shocked at what she read - she told me she was not surprised that publishers had been shying away from it. She said it was nearly pornographic in some parts that dealt with Don and his problems regarding sex and marriage. My friend had advised Barbara to cut out some parts completely and edit others to reduce the explicit sexual content. Barbara followed this advice and the book was later published.

I relate this in order to show the depth of Don's psychological problems. An ongoing problem with exposing oneself to strangers would probably be diagnosed clinically as the sexual disorder of exhibitionism. It could also show an excessive need for the attention and admiration of others, and as such could be a component of a personality disorder known as Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). However, I don't base the observation that Don may be clinically narcissistic on his exhibitionism alone. Here is the definition of NPD in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders:
<blockquote><font color="0000ff"><center>301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder</center>
The essential feature of this disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), hypersensitivity to the evaluation of others, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.

People with this disorder have a grandiose sense of self importance. They tend to exaggerate their accomplishments and talents, and expect to be noticed as "special" even without appropriate achievement.

They often feel that because of their "specialness," their problems are unique, and can be understood only by other special people. Frequently this sense of self-importance alternates with feelings of special unworthiness...

These people are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love, and with chronic feeling of envy for those whom they perceive as being more successful than they are.

Although these fantasies frequently substitute for realistic activity, when such goals are actually pursued, it is often with a driven, pleasureless quality and an ambition that cannot be satisfied. Self-esteem is almost invariably very fragile; the person may be preoccupied with how well he or she is doing and how well he or she is regarded by others. This often takes the form of an almost exhibitionistic need for constant attention and admiration.

The person may constantly fish for compliments, often with great charm. In response to criticism, he or she may react with rage,shame, or humiliation, but mask these feelings with an aura of cool indifference.

Interpersonal relationships are invariably disturbed. A lack of empathy (inability to recognize and experience how others feel) is common. For example, the person may be unable to understand why a friend whose father has just died does not want to go to a party. A sense of entitlement, an unreasonable expectation of especially favorable treatment, is usually present. For example, such a person may assume that he or she does not have to wait in line when others must.

Interpersonal exploitativeness, in which others are taken advantage of in order to achieve one's ends, or for self-aggrandizement, is common.

Friendships are often made only after the person considers how he or she can profit from them. In romantic relationships, the partner is often treated as an object to be used to bolster the person's self-esteem. <sup>4</sup></font></blockquote>
An ex-Chapelite cannot help but squirm with discomfort as he or she reads these short paragraphs. Or at least I could not. I saw a strong correspondence between nearly every one of these characteristics and things I could remember about Don Barnett. "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity" - who cannot but see this in Don's frequently explicit claims to be the one who alone has the revelations necessary to lead us into "the Feast of Tabernacles," and in the way we were always encouraged to think of him as God's man for the hour? Not to mention in the way he structured the Chapel so that he was the unchallenged head and doctrinal authority?

Likewise, "self-importance," "need for admiration," "rage or shame masked with indifference when faced with criticism," "inability to recognize and experience how others feel," "interpersonal exploitativeness," all of these things rang true as I thought back over what I had seen of Don in his role of pastor of the church of which I had once been a member. They rang even more true of the things about Don that were successfully hidden from most of us during the Chapel's existence, such as the episode that caused Frank Rice's exit from the Chapel. (Frank happened to be present, unknown to Don, in a woman's house when Don arrived to harangue and threaten the woman in an effort to prevent her from ending her relationship with him or revealing the relationship. I cannot remember the exact details.)

Why was it important for me to see that Don fits the characteristics of a cult leader, and therefore that the Chapel was cultish? The answer is because I still wanted to be in the church in which God wanted me.

If I had really been led to the Chapel by God - if Don's "anointing" was really the hallmark of a more Biblical church and of an "end-time move of God" - then obviously I should be at COA. If not - if other churches and pastors were really more typical examples of what churches and pastors should be before God - then I needed to find out why I had been so attracted instead to Community Chapel. I needed to deal with it so that I might become a happily functioning member of a good church.

So if I had not been led to the Chapel by God, then what might have led me there?

A typical pattern in the lives of members of groups that were undoubtedly cults has been observed and documented in many different types of literature, from psychological studies to Christian counter-cult books. Here is a typical description of that pattern, a description the author calls "the cult story":
<blockquote><font color="0000ff">At the time they joined their particular cult, most of the people we interviewed had been dissatisfied, distressed, or at a transition point in their lives. Typically, they desired a more spiritual life, a community in which to live cooperatively; they wanted to become enlightened, to find meaning in serving others, or simply to belong. An encounter with an enthusiastic, attractive, friendly person served to introduce each of them to a group whose outer appearance was quite benign. At some point during that introductory phase an intense experience took place which was interpreted as validating the claim that the leader and the group were special, powerful, spiritual; that they could give the person what he or she wanted. This experience might have been an altered state of consciousness (induced by the leader or the group via meditation, chanting, or the laying on of hands), a powerful therapeutic experience, or just a wonderful feeling of being accepted and welcomed — of "coming home."
Won over, the newcomer joined the group, embracing its doctrines and practices. Soon the cult's demands increased and the new member was asked to devote increasing amounts of time, money, and energy to the group's activities. These demands were justified as necessary to fulfill the group's goals; willingness to comply was always interpreted as a measure of the recruit's commitment and sincerity. In order to continue, most did comply, sacrificing much for the sake of the stated high purposes of the group (often put in terms of saving the world).

Relationships outside the group became difficult to maintain. The former life of the new member was given up; contact with outsiders was discouraged and the demands of the new life left little opportunity for extra-group activities. However, the sacrifices were compensated for by the convert's sense of belonging and purpose. The group and the leader (at least initially) gave praise and acceptance.

Gradually, however, an iron fist was felt. Deviation from group dogma brought swift disapproval or outright rejection. The message to the convert became clear: what the group had given the group could take away In time, he or she submitted to — and participated in — cruel, dishonest, and contradictory practices out of fear of the leader and the group, who by then had become the convert's sole source of self-esteem, comfort, and even financial support. Actions that conflicted with the convert's conscience were rationalized by various formulas provided by the leader. (For example, in one group lying to potential converts was explained as "divine deception" for the good of those deceived.) Critical evaluation of the leader and the group became almost impossible, not only because it was punished severely, but also because the view of reality presented by the cult had no challengers. Discordant information was excluded from the group's world.

Exploitation intensified and the recruit regressed into a fearful submission. Couples might be separated; members would inform on each other. Morals were corrupted and critical thinking suppressed. Often the group's leader deteriorated as well, becoming increasingly grandiose, paranoid, or bizarre. In most cases, paranoid thinking tended to mark the entire cult and reinforced the group's isolation.

Our witnesses told of how, eventually, the demands became unbearable; a mother might be told to give up her child or her husband, or a spouse directed to take a different sexual partner. Although often the person would agree to the new requirement, sometimes he or she would not. In such cases, when the member finally refused to comply with the leader or the group’s demands, he or she left precipitously, often assisted by a person outside with whom some contact and trust had been maintained.

Leaving such a group was a flight because the group’s reaction was known to be severe and punitive. Apostates were excommunicated. It was not uncommon for ex-converts to fear that they had been damned or had lost their souls as a consequence of leaving the group. (In some cases, former members were convinced the group would hunt them down and kill them.) Many went through months of struggle to re-establish their lives, wrestling with the questions How could I have been involved in such a thing? How could I have done what I did to other members of the group? Were my spiritual longings all false? Who and what can I trust? At the same time, the closeness the group offered was often sorely missed, and until the ex-member’s life was reconstituted, he or she wondered at times if leaving the group had been a mistake. This turmoil gradually diminished, but for many a sense of shame for having participated in the cult and a frustrated rage at having been betrayed lingered for a long time. <sup>5</sup></font></blockquote>
Again, notice the similarities of this "story" with the Chapel "story." The Chapel story may not have been as extreme in most cases (although for a at least a few individuals, we know it was possibly more extreme), but the main outline is definitely there. From the first years of a small, special group of new believers hungry for the pure Word of God to the later years when "dissidents were painted as deceived and then disfellowshipped, the Chapel story, including my own part in it, is clearly of the same genre.

When I was first invited to the Chapel, I was indeed at a time of transition, I was indeed dissatisfied with the churches I had known up to that time, and I was open to alternatives. I had moved to Seattle alone less than six weeks before and had not yet found friends with whom to fellowship regularly. I accepted the invitation to attend the Chapel from a co-worker who had impressed me with the certainty of his faith.

Although at first I was put off by the speaking in tongues in the Chapel services and the authoritarian structure centered around one man, at the same time I could not help but be impressed by the preaching, music, and zeal I heard and saw. Extensive discussions with members, who seemed to be basing their arguments on nothing but the Bible, convinced me my own beliefs about tongues, church structure, and other issues were wrong. I felt like my own church had not taught me well on these things. I soon began attending regularly, was rebaptized after about eight months, and eventually decided to drop out of the University of Washington (where I had enrolled in the meantime), and attend Bible College instead. I experienced some degree of alienation and isolation from my family and those with whom I had previously shared faith.

Then, sure enough, life at the Chapel gradually deteriorated into increasingly bizarre practices. Teaching about sexual behavior became ambiguous and confusing. Irregular sexual behavior occurred, and was then covered up by the leadership. Members were told not to open the letters of the increasing number of "dissidents." Confusion, uncertainty, and doubt reigned. Finally Don was exposed as being personally involved in the sexual irregularities, and the church collapsed.

In looking at what happened, it is difficult to know what I should have done differently. What could I have done to avoid being drawn into the Chapel, or what should I have known that would have warned me away from it? It seemed to be offering everything that I wanted - particularly a genuine way to live my faith in Jesus Christ. As I had encountered and then joined the Chapel, I had seemed to be following only a strong desire to believe and live Biblically.

In the same work that describes "the cult story" above, these observations follow:
<blockquote><font color="0000ff">After listening to many variants of this story, I began to see that cults form and thrive not because people are crazy, but because they have two kinds of wishes. They want a meaningful life, to serve God or humanity; and they want to be taken care of, to feel protected and secure, to find a home. The first motives may be laudable and constructive, but the latter exert a corrupting effect, enabling cult leaders to elicit behavior directly opposite to the idealistic vision with which members entered the group.
Usually, in psychiatry and psychology, the wish to be taken care of (to find a home, a parent) is called [i]dependency and this is a rather damning label when applied to adults. Adults are not supposed to be dependent in that way, relying on another as a child would rely on a mother or father. We are supposed to be autonomous, self-sustaining, with the capacity to go it alone. We do recognize that adults need each other for emotional support, for giving and receiving affection, for validation; that is acceptable and sanctioned. But underlying such mature interdependency is the longing of the child, a yearning that is never completely outgrown. This covert dependency — the wish to have parents and the parallel wish to be loved, admired, and sheltered by one’s group — continues throughout life in everyone. These wishes generate a hidden fantasy or dream that can transform a leader into a strong, wise, protective parent and a group into a close accepting family. Within that dream we feel secure.

...the dependency dream...has great strength and tenacity. It should be recognized as a permanent part of the human psyche even though in adults it ceases to be as visible as it is in childhood. This dream is dangerous because in its most extreme form it generates cults and makes people vulnerable to exploitation, regression, and even violence. Even in the less intense, less obvious manifestations which occur in everyday society, the dependency dream may impair our ability to think realistically. If we recognize our dependent wishes for what they are we can make appropriate corrections in thought and behavior, but usually we do not. <sup>6</sup></font></blockquote>
I am not saying I buy into this "dependency dream" theory completely. I cannot think it was a very prominent factor in my own decision to join the Chapel. Taken too far, this kind of theory could be used to dismiss belief in God. But I do think there is a germ of truth in it. Instead of mature faith and fellowship in Christ, the Chapel offered its members dependence upon the ersatz security of Don's "anointing" to teach us and to make us into the kind of church that alone could become the kind of "bride" pictured in the Bible that God wanted in it.

At the risk of sounding deluded or self-serving, I'll say that I think I was less affected by this than others I knew or observed while in the Chapel. I was never too impressed by Don. I thought he was a good administrator, but his and Barbara's visions and revelations never seemed to quite connect with anything in me, and I much preferred to get my teaching and fellowship in the setting of the Bible college under the other teachers there. Perhaps this is why I found it easier to leave the Chapel and Don's "anointing" behind when it became led by the experiences and "revelations" that resulted in connections, rather than by the New Testament doctrine by which I thought it was led when I joined it.

However, having left the Chapel, I was still acutely aware of an unfulfilled spiritual hunger. But now knowing that that hunger had led me into a group that was in fact counter-productive to my goal of becoming mature in Christ and a proper member of His body, the church, I began to see that there were both legitimate and illegitimate ways of satisfying that hunger. There is real food, and then there is a way that is more like a drug.

A legitimate church with a legitimate pastor does not exploit and damage its members but rather nourishes them. At the Chapel there was no nourishment - only injections of stimulants. That's because we had a pastor who was narcissistic and who therefore used people to gratify his self-importance instead of helping them become mature in Christ by ministering to them the true Gospel. That perversion is what made it cult-like.

Don was not teaching us, but indoctrinating us with his own belief system in order to serve his own ends and perpetuate his own position. We were served up an intoxicating brew of experiences and emotionalism that seemed to be spiritual, but in reality we were in a carnal circus. Don was attempting, as ringmaster, to sustain a fantasy that had himself at the center; but it was damaging many people as the spectacle gained more speed and began to spin out of control. It wasn't healthy, it wasn't based on anything real, and it couldn't last. In my opinion, one needs to recognize those facts before one can be fully restored as a functioning member in a real church. Otherwise one will be continually longing for a faulty model of faith that will keep one from full acceptance of and participation in the genuine thing.

Don's current followers think his exhibitionism, his adulteries, and his other sexual sins should be simply "forgiven," and are irrelevant to his status as a leader or his office of pastor. They are wrong. We can forgive his sexual sins; the important thing, however, is not that he sinned sexually, but that his personality and ministry were and are severely disordered. The disorder leads him to continue to sinfully exploit his followers to their own hurt for his own desires. I am not saying this is conscious on Don's part. He is driven by something of which he is not aware and which he does not understand. One may say this is psychological, or one may say it is demonic, I don't care. What I am certain of is that Don's leadership, his ministry, is not Biblically legitimate. It doesn't minister the gospel of God's grace revealed in the New Testament in Jesus Christ. That's what made Community Chapel at least cult-like, if not fully a cult; and now that Don has survived the challenges to his leadership and authority that the collapse of the Chapel represented, that's what makes COA more fully cultic.

<u>Footnotes</u>
<sup>1</sup> Deikman, Arthur J., M.D, The Wrong Way Home, excerpted at http://www.deikman.com/wrong.html.
<sup>2</sup> Poulson, Erin at http://la.essortment.com/whatisdefiniti_rjli.htm. Copyright 2002 by PageWise, Inc.
<sup>3</sup> Shaw, Daniel, C.S.W., "Traumatic Abuse in Cults: A Psychoanalytic Perspective," at http://hometown.aol.com/shawdan/essay.htm.
<sup>4</sup> DSM 301.81 quoted at http://www.anandainfo.com/dsm.html.
<sup>5</sup> Deikman, Ibid.
<sup>6</sup> Ibid.

calv (calv)
09-03-2005, 05:33 AM
Gee Steve... wish I could write like you!
Glad your here. This is a good place to tell our stories.
We sat in a lot of the same Bible collage classes and both saw Chapel from differnt angles. Now we hook up after all these yrs... its good to talk about the road. Where we were, what happened, what its like now.
Its hard to belive DB is still at it! In spite of everything he still gets coverd!?!? Somethings not right... people are still being abused! Yet many will only stand behind the twisted teachings and play the same old game!
I mean really, theology and doctrine are a good thing, till you get in so much denial thats all they hide behind.
I think the covers need to be pulled off... the bs needs to be exposed!

onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)
09-03-2005, 05:34 AM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for telling me about this place.

Maybe later I'll post my article from the Chapel site on whether the Chapel was a cult or not.

Some of your recollections remind me of things that have happened on the Chapel message board.


(Message edited by onesimus_jones on September 06, 2005)

steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 05:43 AM
Onesimus,

Yes, I'm sorry about the situation that developed on the Chapel board regarding you and your brother. I felt that the moderator did not really see what was going on there and took an easy out.

silverbee (silverbee)
09-03-2005, 06:10 PM
Onesimus, interesting that among your very first posts here is yet another rehash of you and your brother. You are a one-note song. Get over it already!

If I don't miss my guess, your brother will show up to defend himself here and then the sideshow will start up all over again.

Then you'll disagree with the moderators here and will go off somewhere else bitching about how unfairly you were treated.

steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 06:19 PM
silverbee,

I'm not a moderator (somebody from FACTNet does that), but I have no objections to you and Phil's other admirer hashing it out with Onesimus all you want. However, in order to avoid the appearance that what YOU are really doing is hijacking the board for your own issues, I suggest that you (or Phil or Eric) start another thread for the purpose, and then we will all be happy. Thanks...

silverbee (silverbee)
09-03-2005, 06:25 PM
No need. I don't intend to pursue it. I don't believe in hijacking a board. But if my prediction happens, at least I will be able to get some entertainment value out of it.

steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 06:31 PM
"I don't intend to pursue it." Sure. That's why you posted already on Phil's board about it and why you keep replying here. Right?

silverbee (silverbee)
09-03-2005, 06:33 PM
I must not be who you think I am because I haven't been on Phil's board in months -- maybe years. It's been a long while.

steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 06:41 PM
I stand corrected. I amend my posting to read, "Sure. That's why you keep replying here. Right?"

steve26 (steve26)
09-03-2005, 07:20 PM
To all - I've started a new thread off the main topic area to discuss Onesimus's brother and his behaviour toward Onesimus. See the thread "An Interesing Kind of Chapel Baggage."

calv (calv)
09-04-2005, 05:25 AM
Onesimus

I met you when I first came to chapel, your wife had a roommate I dated ! Takes a while to recall everyone.
I also helped in your sons ss class! Hi to all of you!
Hope you are doing well.
Family stuff and cults... things can sure get mixed up,
your not alone in that dept. Funny thing is theres not much help for that kind of stuff. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable... wonder why? I guess for the most part
it easier to find ways to block it out. Its pretty unfortunate
That those who think they have all the answers have nothing to offer. Not that there is an easy solution to any problems, but if people can not communicate, how can anything ever be resolved?

jeepman (jeepman)
09-04-2005, 07:17 AM
Onesimus,

Please contact me via e-mail. I've tried many times this summer to contact you. We recently had a long cell phone conversation. I just want to know that you are OK. If I've said or done anything to offend you, please accept my apologies. I miss working the main gate south of Knob Noster. That is a huge hint as to who I am. I love you, my Brother in Christ. I'll also watch for you on the ccbtc.org board.

JeepMan

onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)
09-04-2005, 03:02 PM
Hi Calv,

I remember those days, and wish I'd have gotten to know you better. You have a lot to say.

"...if people can not communicate, how can anything ever be resolved?"

True. Communicating doesn't guarantee resolution, but not communicating ensures that nothing will be resolved.

The Chapel's current incarnation, where the autocratic leader wants only smooth sayings, and is completely unaccountable for his words, certainly demonstrates this.

onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)
09-04-2005, 03:45 PM
Was Community Chapel a cult?

That depends on how one defines "cult".

Here are some possible responses to the question when considering 7 different definitions :

AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY DEFINITIONS (incomplete list)

1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
*

Well, we had the authoritarian leader and were "generally considered" a cult by most. So any group with pyramid government that does poorly in the polls, so to speak, is a cult. Thus, the Catholic church is OK - but be wary of the Fundamentalists.


2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
*

Liturgical churches are cults.


DEFINITIONS GLEANED FROM COMMON PARLANCE

3. A group claiming to be Christian which denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
*

This is enough for the Bible Answer Man.


4. A group which claims to have revelation from God apart from the Bible.
*

Even if they disallow revelations that contradict scripture?


5. A group whose members become separate from their families.
*

Remember the cult leader who came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law? Excluding those who deserted spouses for connections, Chapelites were much more often ostracized by their families than the reverse. Some relatives not only regard former members as second class citizens, but feel complete liberty to interfere in their personal lives. (note: my relative formed his own sect that has become as Chapelesque as the Chapel, though fortunately on a miniscule scale)


6. A group which falls into sin and deception.
*

Did you hear about the church which acquired a bunch of gold and followed their leader into the wilderness? Then when the leader mysteriously disappeared, his brother made a golden calf and led the people into an orgy - a cult for sure. Eve was beguiled by the serpent. If our brothers and sisters are beguiled, they don't get free by being labeled a cult!


DEFINITION (falsely) ATTRIBUTED TO ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO

7. "A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the second coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a high level of financial giving to Christian causes; who home schools his children; who has accumulated survival foods and has a strong belief in the 2nd Amendment; and who distrusts big government."
*******

The term "Christian" was originally a pejorative term applied to followers of Christ. Could post-Christian America become a place where Christianity is considered a cult?


COMMENTS

In modern vernacular "cult" is a highly charged term with broad implications. I submit that casual use of the term can only hinder effective communication because of the wide variety of connotations. Motives of those eager to label others as a cult are suspect.

Remember the infamous episode of "West 57th Street"? They showed Wayne Snoey, the family man, playing ball with his kids and then decrying the cult that he had left. No mention was made that those weren't his kids with whom he was tossing the ball - he had left his own wife and daughter to marry their mother. But who cares about the truth when there's a "cult" to expose? One simpleton (a disciple of my brother's), who never attended the Chapel, has the place all figured out - it was JUST wife swapping. Ask Constance Cumby about the Chapel, and I bet you'll learn it was JUST "new age". Can't other Christians be regarded as "deceived" or "prideful" or just "wrong". Must they be pigeonholed - JUST wife swappers, JUST new age, etc. God called people there at the same time He led others away..even after connections started. And the level of involvement of individuals ran the gamut - from those who consciously practiced witchcraft, to those involved in "mega connections", to lessor "connections", to those who didn't "connect" at all.

For what its worth, my own definition (subject to change) of "cult" would include some elements of most of the above (not #7), with the qualification that for a group to be considered a "cult", there must be a prolonged and determined refusal to receive clear corrections, warnings, and/or instructions, and an explicitly stated belief that the group alone is chosen by God above all others. JW's, Mormons, etc. would thus qualify. So would COA and Scattered Sheep. "Mega" connections were 2-person cults.

My testimony

I loved Jesus Christ before, during, and after my involvement with CC.

My heart was right before God before, during, and after my involvement with CC - even when I was in deception.

Spiritual growth continued in my life before, during, and after my involvement with CC.

The gifts God gave me were in operation before, during, and after my involvement with CC. Some people thought that Gods call on my life was revoked or delayed because of CC; but God didn't repent of His call on my life.

The Chapel was a great experience that I would not recommend to anyone.

steve26 (steve26)
09-04-2005, 05:31 PM
<font color="0000ff">In modern vernacular "cult" is a highly charged term with broad implications. I submit that casual use of the term can only hinder effective communication because of the wide variety of connotations. Motives of those eager to label others as a cult are suspect.</font>

Onesimus - I'm going to have to strongly disagee with you about this. Cults often hide behind this very reasoning. One can acknowledge that a term is a difficult or vague without discarding it. Here are some remarks from the full version from my Web site (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/WasTheChapelACult.htm) that I didn't include in the article I posted above--<blockquote><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

...cult leaders are good at hiding what it is they actually do. "I've never met anyone who joined a cult," says Carol Giambavo, who works with the American Family Foundation (AFF), a cult-research center. "They all joined an interesting group."<sup>1</sup><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The word "cult" has a bewildering variety of meanings today and therefore it has become uncertain in its application. Some people even contest the validity of the term. So it is necessary to first discuss the meaning of the word before giving any clear answer to the question "Was the Chapel a cult?"

Until the last forty or fifty years, the term "cult" was almost always used in neutral contexts. It was used mainly in scholarly works to refer to any system of worship.<blockquote><font color="0000ff">The word cult comes from the French culte, and is rooted in the Latin cultus, which means "care" and "adoration." That idea comes from the Latin cultus - the past participle of colere, which means "to cultivate."

The word was used in the sense of "to worship or give reference to a deity." <sup>2</sup></font></blockquote>Today, however, many questions and controversies swirl around the use of the word "cult." One of the best discussions of these is given on the Apologetics Index Web site, from which I took the citation above. For all of those who have questions regarding cultism, I highly recommend it. On that site, one will also find these remarks:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">Some experts, on all sides of the debate over cults, altogether object to the use of the word "cult," considering it to be a pejorative term designed to trigger a negative response.

Cult apologists, in particular, tend to accuse their opponents of using the term "cult" to convey negative images.

However, fact is that while a few people may indeed misuse the term that way, the fast majority of cult experts do not use "cult" in a pejorative way - even though they may well view cults in a negative light.

On this issue, see the following statement at the American Family Foundation (AFF) site:<blockquote>Even though we have each studied cults and educated people about this subject for more than 20 years, neither of us has ever felt completely comfortable with the term "cult." No other term, however, serves more effectively the linked educational and research aims of AFF (American Family Foundation), the organization that we serve as president (Rosedale) and executive director (Langone). In order to help others who have asked questions about the term "cult," we here offer some thoughts on the definition and use of this term...

Even though the term "cult" has limited utility, it is so embedded in popular culture that those of us concerned about helping people harmed by group involvements or preventing people from being so harmed cannot avoid using it. Whatever the term's limitations, it points us in a meaningful direction. And no other term relevant to group psychological manipulation (e.g., sociopsychological influence, coercive persuasion, undue influence, exploitive manipulation) has ever been able to capture and sustain public interest, which is the sine qua non of public education. If, however, we cannot realistically avoid the term, let us at least strive to use it judiciously.Source: On Using the Term 'Cult'. Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq., Michael D. Langone, Ph.D. <sup>3</sup></blockquote></font></blockquote>In light of this, then, I myself feel comfortable in pursuing the question of how the term is applicable to the Chapel. In view of the manner of its end in 1988, and in view of the nature of the present group led by the former leader of the Chapel, I think the question is obviously relevant.

<u>Footnotes</u>
<sup>1</sup> Wright, Chris, "Bob Pardon to the rescue", http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/02977841.htm (The Phoenix.com Web magazine, June 27 - July 3, 2003 issue.)
<sup>2</sup> http://www.cultfaq.org/ ("Apologetics Index" site)
<sup>3</sup> Ibid.</blockquote>

calv (calv)
09-04-2005, 05:42 PM
the bottomline

Spiritual and emotional abuse.
the damage was/is done.
What does it continue to do in victums lives?
Do we see the whole picture or just the half that is visable to us?
Has that half been white washed ?
Is the white wash cultic?
denial... minimizing... ignorance

onesimus_jones (onesimus_jones)
09-04-2005, 10:47 PM
Steve,

I don't consider your use of the term "cult" to be casual, regardless of whether I agree with your application of it.

Whether one wants to call the Chapel a cult or not, there is still room for consensus about the abuse, deception, and ongoing effects of CCBTC.

Personally, I think the Chapel was a church that God severely judged, even as He did the church in the wilderness (cp. Exodus 32).

In my view, COA and other Chapel stepchildren groups are cults, while the Chapel Cyberchurch is trending that way.

(Message edited by onesimus_jones on September 06, 2005)

(Message edited by onesimus_jones on September 19, 2005)

steve26 (steve26)
09-04-2005, 11:44 PM
Onesimus - thanks for clarifying that. Besides for the fact that now I don't think God was ever in the Chapel to begin with (I think events were just running their course under people's false ideas of what the Bible taught and of what God was telling them through revelations and prophecies), that puts us pretty much in agreement.

movinon (movinon)
09-25-2005, 08:54 PM
One and Steve,

The term "cult" is a very charged term and one that comes with varying degrees of definition. Personally, I prefer the term "aberrant", since it implies a general departing from what is normal or expected. Most of the time most folks don't really understand that you are just calling it a cult in a nice way.

Once again, personally, I think the chapel turned into an aberrant group that I would now, from my current perspective, have to label as a cult. Did I love God there, was I sincere there, did I want to serve God while I was there??? Yes, to all those questions, but I have come to the conclusion that I was more hindered from doing that there than I was helped. I just couldn't see it at the time because I was as lost in the forest as everyone else.

Calling the chapel a cult doesn't change my view of myself or the people who I came to know and love there....in fact, it actually explains a lot of things that, at the time, I couldn't explain because I wouldn't let myself explain them.

Anyway, that's my two cents on that....I know this topic is a very controversial one because it's hard to admit that we got screwed up with a group that we can see now was so luny.

mo

steve (steve)
09-26-2005, 04:22 AM
mo,

I think you raise many good issues. I use "cultish" and "aberrant" more or less interchangeably, but I want to add that I have never considered the Chapel a full-blown cult. Unlike "successful" cults such as the JWs and Mormons, it did not require its members to make a conscious, explicit choice to forswear their identification with historic Christianity. However, if one looks closely enough, one finds that the underlying rationale is the same: mainstream Christianity is presented as basically off the tracks (with the point of departure identified, in pretty much the same way, as being the council of Nicea), and the Chapel is pictured as providing the true teaching lost since that time that will restore the church. It did exert heavy psychological pressure on its members to forswear identification with historic Christianity and to make a spiritual division between themselves and churches that held to the historic creeds. The sadly ironic thing is that many even today will vehemently deny such pressure ever existed while still manifestly showing every evidence of its influence.

Another important point that you make, in my opinion, is to say that calling the Chapel cultish is not a judgement against the "heart" of the people in it. I can acknowledge that they were there to sincerely love and serve God while still recognizing that the teaching and practices of the place were off, served no good purpose, and aren't worth keeping. Your observation that calling the Chapel a cult<blockquote><font color="0000ff">doesn't change my view of myself or the people who I came to know and love there....in fact, it actually explains a lot of things that, at the time, I couldn't explain because I wouldn't let myself explain them</font></blockquote> sums it up simply and well.

movinon (movinon)
09-26-2005, 06:24 PM
Steve,

I think your point regarding the pressure to disavow specific aspects of historic christianity is interesting...I guess I had never really looked at that particular aspect of CC as a possible warning sign of trouble down the road. Amazing how after all these years, I'm still finding myself re-evaluating the trees that surround me, so to speak, so that I can continue to find my way out of the forest of confusion that CC, and to be fair, many other groups and places, led me into at different times.

I find myself looking at the fruits of all this supposed new understanding and revelation, and then I look at the mess of confusion, disarray,and damage that it has brought to so many people's lives and I really have to wonder about much of it.

Anyway, I do think that it is beneficial to take an honest look at the things that were really hammered on by CC, and other groups. Why was this so important to them? Why was it so important to somehow knock that foundation out from under people? I have my hypotheses, but I'll ponder them some more before I speak.

mo

calv (calv)
12-10-2005, 03:19 PM
What Is and Isn't a Cult - D. Barnett

something to think about!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

steve (steve)
12-11-2005, 04:22 PM
Calv,

I just noticed what it is you refer to in the above posting. Funny! Either the moderator of CCG has a sense of humor after all, or he is further gone than I thought.

What Is and Isn't Terrorism - O. Bin Laden

Hee hee. My goodness. If nothing else, Community Chapel certainly has furnished us all with a lot of extremely interesting illustrations of the ultimate blindness of human nature, hasn't it?

calv (calv)
12-11-2005, 07:08 PM
Well Steve

Its very complex. We couldn't possibly understand. The Facts are not clear enough! Many points need to be made.
Those of us over here on the hate cc board cannot see the hand of Jesus love they extend to us!
I am far too un sanitary and sometimes I have a beer... therefore I am a drunk!
My sarcasm is really un controlable anger that just rages with out any thought to what I am saying!

BTW Im sorry for throwing you thru that plate glass window at the bar the other night! You know I just can't stand your luthern only tactic and the way you judge me for going to a 4sq cult. my nose is healing nicely brother after you thru it out of joint. You know id debate you more on line but im such a sore loser I might get mad and use unclean words and have to start typeing in tounges.

Is every thing what it appers or is it just my imagination?

btw fact number 4 evaporated .... nobody gives a <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> ..... guess those little red dots are good for something!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

steve (steve)
12-11-2005, 08:42 PM
More complex, commonly misunderstood topics, explained by those who know them best: What Is and Isn't Rape - T. Bundy What Is and Isn't Abuse - J. Dahmer What Is and Isn't Sex - W. Clinton What Is and Isn't "Is" - W. Clinton (a Special Bonus, included with the above tape by the same speaker) What Is and Isn't Military Agression - A. Hitler What Is and Isn't Treason - B. Arnold What Is and Isn't a Tax - E. KennedyOh golly - somebody stop me. I'm rolling on the floor laughing...

As for the plate glass window, forget it. People always react like that when we Lutherans straighten them out.

movinon (movinon)
12-12-2005, 01:58 PM
Ok, ok....fill me in. What is going on? Did you get the ccg board in a dither about something, Calv? :-)

mo

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 03:24 PM
WELL.... I talked about a few facts
used the word pukeing and <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> and bull****
(read poop and bullpoop)
and the rest is history....

I will write more tonite .... stay tuned!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

steve (steve)
12-12-2005, 03:38 PM
mo,

As a sidelight, and to explain my previous two postings, here's a link to the way the current CCG header looks (it doesn't take you to the actual site, just to a copy I made of the top half of their page):

<center> CCG Header (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/currentCCGHeader/CCG.htm)</center>

Note the featured message by D. Barnett. Overall, isn't that just the most appropriate look possible for that board?

movinon (movinon)
12-12-2005, 06:11 PM
Steve,

Is that header a joke???? Are they really looking to DB for the definition of a cult???? Now I understand your humor more specifically!! Good grief, I'm amazed that anyone would look to DB for any kind of accuracy or truth or understanding! Let's all look to the captain of the Titantic for tips on how to avoid icebergs! Same thing...geesh!

mo

steve (steve)
12-12-2005, 06:24 PM
mo,

You ask if the CCG header is a joke. I really suspect that is - or at least a way of kind of twitting us over here on this board. In times past at least, the CCG moderator has certainly shown some awareness that DB is over the edge and not to be trusted on spiritual subjects. In private thought, when he's not on the attack against us, I'm sure that Dave does not really go by Don's definitions in thinking about the Chapel.

movinon (movinon)
12-12-2005, 07:36 PM
One would hope that is the case, Steve, but who knows for sure. Based upon the things that have been said and done over the last couple of years by leading members of the ccg board, I'm simply a bit skeptical in regard to the possibilities. Either way, it only makes them look badly, since I could never take DB's cult criteria seriously.

mo

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 08:38 PM
Mo

I know you can imagine what happened with out me even telling you.....

I stated ten FACTS
1 cc was a disaster
2 coa
3 hundreds of damaged people
4 nobody give a <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>
5 whats the point
6 the points preceding the FACTS
7 attacking us ... instead of the FACTS
8 people who dont obey get banned
9 the FACTS don't matter
10 what ever happens next

What happend next .... is exactly what you think....
they are making the points for me me!
Its a perfect picture of what they are really all about!

DIM thinking

denial

ignorance

minimizing


of course I was drunk at the time .... they could tell
and I was out of contol angry

But .... they are willing to love me in spite of the way I act .... They are still talking about it now!

Obviously Im stupid and they know how I should feel, think and act! They are modeling that behaviour for us now!

You really should take a peek... but I completly understand why you wouldn't, it really is quite toxic...

Even though its hilarious .... the truth is its very very sad.
It shows me how deep the deception they still are.

they just go ballistic and do the very thing they accuse others of .... not that Im not a smart <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> at times and knew it would trigger them .... but of course that makes me a monster who only wants to cause trouble!

I just want people to open thier eyes and get honest for once in thier lives ... ther is just so much more we can do if we can be honest.

You know what I never hear about is healing
what happened
what was it like
whats it like now

the just hide behind the same old bull****
and that <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> me off
I say it good to puke if your sick ... just don't stay sick!
get help !

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 08:54 PM
If anyone things these are not spirits fighting the truth...think again!

Profound title... to say the least

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:35 PM
Out of your mouth speaks whats in your heart.

good stuff!

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:38 PM
Get over it, grow up. Stop puking all over yourself!

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:42 PM
This sweeping generalization is called, "fact # 1." Now you are entitled to your opinion but don't be offended if I think it tragic and warped if that is your characterization of CCBTC.
CCBTC is very complex and should not be labled just one thing. There are almost as many descriptions as there are people. So your "fact" may be what Y O U experienced but please don't assume what my experience was. Let me enjoy my 20 years of CCBTC.

my reply .... so what part did you enjoy the most?

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:45 PM
what did you enjoy the most?

Posted by calvin on 12/10/2005, 9:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Fact 1 ???"
71.112.200.248

complex .... sweeping generalization
20 yrs.... got into leadership and who knows what else?Of course My opinion is twisted and warped!!!
I wouldnt dare assume what your experiance was.
Should I not assume what the pain of broken marriages and spiritual abuse has?
I saw firsthand what you are capable of, I know what you did ..... but do you care?
Who do you think you are?
Who do you think I am?
complex and should not be labled one thing!
BULL****!
show me the good that came out of chapel....
is that what I see on this board?

What I see is prostitudeing the gospel to build yourself up! Your not my leader.... I learned a great deal watching you and those like you... belive me I wouldnt want to be like you . You use people and think your so special but you know what your not .

Its people like you that damage the church .... wolfs in sheeps clothing.

Gee talk about denial .... I cant belive all the <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> you guys got away with! How does that make you feel?
Do you ever think about it? Or are you just too lost in the spirit?

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:49 PM
calvin, I and, I am sure everyone else here and probably everyone in the WHOLE WORLD for that matter, will gladly take what comes forth from ****** before I would want any of the puke that keeps coming out of your mouth.

You clearly do not have a clue who and what ****** has grown into. You should follow his example.

I offered to try to help you earlier today, but lets face it you really do not what help, do you.

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:53 PM
I did not escape the laws of "reaping and sowing." I lost my wife, job &amp; ministry, church, and contact with many dear friends. I did not escape the pain and sorrow that many others experienced. The added burden of bearing a measure of responsibility is also painful. That does not characterize my entire CCBTC experience, however. The entire 70's and early 80's should not be just "thrown away" because of the mistakes made at the end.
It is like eating at a restaurant for many years. Then one day getting food poisoning. One might never eat at that restaurant again. I can understand that. I can only say that I wish you the best and will stand in for the leadership at CC and say I am sorry for the many mistakes and folly which caused you so much pain.
I can only hope in the redemptive virtue of the Gospel that whatever mess we can make, God can forgive and restore. If we can go out into this world and tell people Jesus can save them then he can save us and heal us as well.
Regard
*****

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 09:56 PM
All your swearing and ranting is indicitive of someone who has had to much to drink!

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 10:03 PM
Calvin can come in here all he wants as far as I'm concerned, dredge up the stuff that only bottom feeders would digest, and pick the scabs off all his old wounds to his hearts content. That is not the issue. These are “tuff” words on my part also, but when the filthy words start, some kind of Christian standard has to prevail.

To me it's a side issue that someone has something they need to work out. Over and over again I see long illustrative explanations for the need to talk out what has been causing a person's problem. Assimilating the facts is the needed method to bring healing and “feel better”, not lynching the person. I’ll put money 10 to 1 down that Calvin does not feel better in the way that godly healing brings after that tangent of cuss words. Satisfaction from sin is a whole nuther story.

I say LET CALVIN STAY, but I have not seen his hurts from ****** given, just sweeping generalities and abhorrent language. I think that that space should be productive and get to the specifics. Give him the space, but let’s not let anyone be abused. Isn’t that what their own complaint is that they were abused? How many times have we heard that in the cases of those that have become rapists and pedophiles, a link to being abused was found in their past. Is this license to let them abuse because they were abused? God forbid.

calv (calv)
12-12-2005, 10:07 PM
Complain, complain, complain.
Your method of medicine is complain.
You claim that to puke,
cures your rebuke;
Yet your sickness remains the same.

Attack, attack, attack,
your mode of madness is attack.
Accusations of group think,
doing the same on your own link;
Makes your words more mud than fact.

Fight, fight, fight,
Your means to an end is to fight.
You hunt like a dog,
picking gnats you miss the log;
This intolerance of non-Trinitarians is not right.


your truly.

calv (calv)
12-13-2005, 01:44 AM
HEY!!!! I found one voice of reason!!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif



Well, I have only just gotten caught up with you guys. Thats a lot of stuff to read.

A few comments.

I personally dont have any problem with someone processing or hashing out, or dredging up or puking up or any other term...stuff about the chapel.

You just gotta do it until you get through it and no ammount of others telling you to "put it behind you brother" will do anything.

I only began working through my feelings about the church a few years ago, and boy was I swinging and hissing for a while. I still am sometimes. Others were way ahead of me in their process. It has been suggested to me that I try to calm down. I tried to calm down but no...instead I told off Don Barnett something fierce. I really pasted him, at least, from my perspective I did.

And you know what, that confrontation really healed me. Pretty amazing.

I am not able to follow all that Calvin says and I havent gone to the other board so I cant really comment on that aspect of our discussion but some of the comments sort of reminds me of something we still talk about around our house.

Remember when Don started saying that you could no longer bring up what he did in the past because it was "under the blood." He cut off all confrontation and resolution, all repentance and forgiveness between one another all by his ridiculous claim that you could not talk about stuff that was "under the blood." Absolutely ridiculous.

Similarly, just because something happened a long time ago, that doesnt mean you have to now be over it, just because time has passed. There isnt a statute of limitations on overcoming your pain and confusion derived from your time at the chapel.

Its not much fun but sometimes the greiving and ranting and confronting are what finally heals us. It think this board is a good place for that, at least it has been for me.

movinon (movinon)
12-13-2005, 03:06 AM
Hey Calv,

How refreshing to hear someone speaking what is true about this kind of thing! I'm glad for you because this has to give you some comfort and support. There will always be people who simply cannot understand the pain that confronting the truth about things like CC can cause in someone's heart, soul, and mind. But then, some people never pull their heads out of the sand long enough to see what is real because they really don't want to see it. It would topple everything they have built their lives and beliefs upon. Everything that is hidden will come into the light, one day, and it won't be you or me or anyone on the ccg board doing the judging then, it will be the judge of all the earth who will do right by all involved.

Hang in there, my friend.

mo

movinon (movinon)
12-13-2005, 02:34 PM
Hey Calv,

I really agree with almost all of what that poster on ccg said(as relayed by you here), but the only thing I disagree with is the part about that board being a good place to vent your feelings and receive healing. As long as you are sweet and nice and spiritually politically correct, you'll maybe be listened to; but if you make others uncomfortable and maybe cause them to think about their own feelings, that is when you get the "buck up, shame on you for losing control and being unforgiving" type of treatment.

That board used to be a place where you could express your emotions and feelings honestly, but a change began to take place several years ago and it hasn't been the same since.

mo

calv (calv)
12-13-2005, 04:56 PM
MO

Exactly!

I was in contol of my feelings and emotions the other day. I could have chosen other words and worn a mask.
I knew what I was saying and how they would react.

Now can they look at themselfs or do they need to make scapegoats out of someone?
What I did has caused them to expose themselfs.
The poor moderator has to wade into the cesspool and try fish out one little turd to keep the septic tank sanitary!

hypocrites!?!?!? group think? toxic? unhealthy?

fact 1 chapel was a disaster
is that just my imagination something I made up?

The gathering needs to take a good look at themselfs....
I know others are!

ct

calv (calv)
12-13-2005, 05:22 PM
what is ccg about?


The message board for those of us who attended Community Chapel and Bible Training Center in Burien, WA. Come find your old friends and see what we have all been up to.


what fact net is about?

recovery from the affects of ccbtc.


I hope others will see honesty from us and find hope!
I dont fault anyone for being in cc or falling down and makeing mistakes.
what I wont stand for is denial about what happened.
minimizing what happened.
Ignorance is ok but a person has to be open and have respect for what they DONT KNOW.....yet.

we have to listen to each other and be very slow to judge.

I belive that in the years ahead many more surviors of cc will come looking to resolve the past. I want there to be a place where they can do that. Is this that place?

calv (calv)
12-13-2005, 05:27 PM
Just because you don't like what you are hearing, dosen't mean its wrong!

steve (steve)
01-12-2006, 05:30 PM
<center><font color="119911">bump</font></center><hr width=75% size=2><center><table><tr><td><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)</TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">Steve Born</font></font></TD><TD><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</td></tr></table></center>

steveb (steveb)
03-04-2006, 06:26 PM
bump

steveb
03-14-2006, 05:33 PM
bump

davidmarkbecker
03-26-2006, 12:30 PM
Hi Steve, Christianity Today recently had an editorial on the use of the word "cult." It was titled "Loose Cult Talk" and is at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/15.27.html.

What is your reaction to this piece?

Also, how do you think CCBTC stacks up as a "cult" in how the WELS frames the issues in addressing the question as to whether the WELS is a "cult" (see below item)?

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&amp;cuItem_itemID=7833

Q: Is the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod a cult?

A: No, not by any normal or customary definition of what a "cult" is. The word "cult" in its original sense is a broad and generic term used to describe a system of distinctive religious belief and worship. In that sense every church body qualifies as a "cult". But in the past hundred years or so, the word has taken on a much more narrow and usually more negative meaning. The Wisconsin Synod, in doctrine and practice, does not correspond to the definition of the term "cult" that is normally used today. To illustrate this answer I offer the following:

Sometimes "cult" is applied to adherents of a very exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices. But what WELS believes and teaches is classic, historic, biblical Christianity, often maintaining what other churches once taught but no longer do.

In modern general usage a "cult" is often a religious group that follows a living leader who promotes new and unorthodox doctrines and practices, normally a small fringe group centered around a single charismatic individual who uses unethical forms of persuasion to manipulate followers. Usually they conduct their operations in secrecy. WELS does not conduct itself in such a manner.

Sometimes "cult" is used with reference to a system of religious beliefs and especially accompanying rituals, as in reference to people "devoted to the cult of the Blessed Virgin." WELS does not go in that direction.

In modern usage, the term cult is often used by the general public to describe any religious group they view as strange or dangerous. In addition to these usages, Christians generally have a doctrinal component to their use of the word. Cult in this sense, is a counterfeit or serious deviation from the doctrines of classical Christianity. Even those who do not agree with certain things we believe and teach do not normally charge us with that kind of error.

On the other hand, sometimes people will use the term "cult" to refer to a religious group with practices and teachings outside the dominant cultural and religious traditions of a society. In some ways, specifically with reference to our convictions regarding the identity of the antichrist, the six-day creation, the role of men and women in the church, or principles governing the exercise of church fellowship, the WELS could be called a "cult". We are on these issues not a part of the mainstream of culture or society. And anyone who desires to attach a pejorative label to the WELS might use the term in this way.

In our own circles, the term "cult" is most often used to describe a religious group that follows a particular theological system that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that especially deal with the way of salvation--and distorts them sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable. Examples of cults by this definition are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Moonies.

steveb
03-26-2006, 07:56 PM
David,

Both of those articles are interesting. Thanks again for posting links to them.

The first, from Christianity Today, tries to walk the fence a little bit, in my opinion. Yes of course the term "cult" has become vague and has been applied to a wide variety of groups, some of which probably aren't really cults. But on the other hand, most people have a pretty good intuitive understanding of what is and what is not a cult (unless they are defending one), so the word certainly does not need to be retired.

And speaking of that intuitive understanding of what a cult is, I think the WELS definition does a decent job of capturing it in words: "a religious group that follows a living leader who promotes new and unorthodox doctrines and practices, normally a small fringe group centered around a single charismatic individual who uses unethical forms of persuasion to manipulate followers. Usually they conduct their operations in secrecy." I think that the Chapel fits entirely under such a description.

steveb
04-01-2006, 04:38 PM
bump

steveb
04-24-2006, 01:59 PM
...Bringing this back up to the top. It is one of four core threads that I feel contain my basic message about Community Chapel and Bible Training Center, a Oneness Pentecostal church of which I was a member for nearly ten years. The others are these:

<center>Brief Introduction to this Topic (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/13223.html?1144690015)

Where Did the Chapel Err? (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16957.html?1143905830)

Why is Jesus' deity so important? (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/14923.html?1143905555)</center>


<center><hr width=75% size=2><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">More Chapel reflections</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/Chapel/index.html)<font face="Georgia"><font size="-1"><font color="119911">Steve Born</font></font></font><font face="Georgia"><font size="-1">My Home page</font></font> (http://home.comcast.net/~sr_born/)</center>

(Message edited by steveb on April 24, 2006)

steveb
07-12-2006, 05:42 PM
bump

steveb
11-22-2006, 04:31 PM
See www.ccbtc.info (http://www.ccbtc.info) for a new, centralized source of information on the Web about Community Chapel and its continuing influence today.

steveb
12-30-2006, 07:23 PM
<center>-- Bumping this up to the top for easier access --</center>

[This site is now primarily an archive of past postings about Community Chapel. Please see the ex-CCBTC discussion board (http://members6.boardhost.com/exccbtc) for current postings on Chapel doctrine and its continuing influence.]

---Steve

calv
04-18-2007, 04:59 AM
wow.... what a blast from the past!