Donald Duck (81.118.4.7)
08-31-2004, 07:30 PM
For all Current and Past Members of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship / The Walk: Talking Points
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FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Church of the Living Word / The Walk / John Robert Stevens: For all Current and Past Members of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship / The Walk: Talking Points
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XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:04 pm
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Hi everyone. I thought it would be nice to create a new thread that will take less time to open.
My idea for this thread would be sort a reunion-type deal for anyone who was in the Living Word Fellowship recently or even many years ago. I know I have many friends who I have not heard from in years and would love to hear from them.
What was / is your experience with the Living Word Fellowship, John Stevens, the new leadership, Shiloh, the School of Prophets, your friends and family in the movement?
What local church did you belong to? What books/manuals/tapes were you into?
How has your membership effected your family?
What other churches have you been involved with? What did you like / dislike about them?
What do you think about Latter Rain theology in general? William Branham, Winston Nunes, George Warnock, and most recently Rick Joyner?
What do you think about spiritualism / mysticism in general?
What do you think about our presidential race and the war in Iraq? How do your political / economical views relate to your religious/spiritual views?
Just trying to get started with some ideas for people to post about.
By the way, if it is the first time you are posting, its ok to post anonymously. I posted anonymously many times before revealing my identity. But revealing my identity has made my posts more interesting for everyone to read, so I would encourage anyone when they feel ready, to post.
Jon (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:37 pm
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I'll start by giving some of my opinions. I've already given my views on alot of these topics, but I thought I'd list my favorite books and manuals from the Living Word:
Give Attendance to Reading (manual)
Halley's Bible Handbook (buy at a bible bookstore)
Strongs Exhaustive Concordance (buy at a bible bookstore)
The First Principles: (The manual I owe much of my scriptural foundation to reading, accompanied by reading the corresponding bible verses in each outline. By the way, I found doing one lesson a day was enough. I got bogged down when I tried to do more lessons in a day.
Tuning into the Wisdom of the Lord (This Week): How to wait on the Lord, how to find his voice. Very interesting.
Living Now (This Week): If you like time management / effectiveness, you will love this.
Principles of the Kingdom (manual): expositions of the Beattitudes. Simple but very applicable.
He is Willing and Able (manual): All about faith. The power of faith, Hebrews 11:1, the untapped potential of the promises/words of God.
The School of Prophets Manuals:
One manual describing each of the 9 gifts of the spirit (I've never read a more thorough in my opinion accurate description of the gifts, how they are aquired, how they work, etc)
Spiritual Perception: very informative on the spirit realm.
How to Bring a Sermon: very descriptive of how John Stevens read the bible and prepared his sermons (he never had a planned sermon he would write the night before, but he had tons of outlines and ideas filed away for reference, tells how he did it)
These are just a few of my favorites.
"What do you think about our presidential race and the war in Iraq? How do your political / economical views relate to your religious/spiritual views?"
I used to believe that the whole corporate/political establishment should be brought down in a way that would be the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.
I think it will change, but it won't be as dramatic as the picture painted in Revelation.
We have this battle between the secularists and the traditionalists over "under God" in the pledge of alliegance. The traditionalists will win this one.
We have the Securities and Exchange Commission requiring more transparency and disclosure for CEOs and corporate executives.
We have the new enormously popular 24/7 Fox News channel that will allow both sides of the debate about politics and economics.
We have some outspoken, progessive liberals that will not tolerate corruption in the current administration. They have an audience.
We have educated voters, especially the 18-30 year olds, that are predicted to be well represented in our next presidential election.
I've noticed that ever since 9/11, all of my friends and I are very interested in the news, current events, and politics.
I realized that if I want to make a difference, I need to be voting in the presidential elections, and the state house and senate elections. Even city politics is important if you are raising a family and concerned about what is going on.
I would say the biggest step towards making our government more Godly would be to get all the Christians out there voting, and writing letters to senators or congressmen.
Some issues I am passionate about are the environment, reproductive rights, malpractice/litigation reform for physicians, getting the 41 million uninsured Americans good health insurance, tax cuts for all the tax brackets, and correcting the racial inequities in our capital punishment/law enforcement systems. Some of these are supported by democrats, some by republicans, but they are all imporant.
I think our government is here to stay. The constitution is not perfect, but it is better than any other country has come up with.
John Stevens said he thought "The Stars and Stripes will be flying in the Kingdom".
I know people in the LWF are very patriotic, after being at the 4th of July celebrations at Shiloh when the war vetrans spoke at the service.
XPineConeX (152.163.252.129)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 10:22 pm
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Just trying to generate new interest in this new thread I've started. One advantage to posting on this thread is that it doesn't take as long to open.
Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:29 pm
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Strongs Exhaustive Concordance is not actually from TLWF, neither is Halley's Bible Handbook. Just thought I would clear that up.
I have some major problem with The First Principles. It's foundation is off-base. I was going to never, ever post my personal findings on The First Principles, but I think I will post part of it now. I LOVE the people in TLWF, but I think they are totally led astray. I think JRS was off base to begin with, he had no problem using the Bible to make it say whatever he wanted. That post will follow this one.
Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 11:48 pm
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I only went through the first 20 lessons. This is choppy because I took out some of the things that I would rather not post publically. Here are my findings:
Before I start going through the book, let me explain some objectives that I will use (that I learned in college). For something to pass as true, they must pass the following criteria: 1) The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible. For an idea to be proven (and not a misinterpretaion), that idea should be found in at least two places in the Bible. See Joshua 1:8 and Acts 17:11. Basically looking for confirmation within the scriptures. 2) Never take a verse out of context. Be wary of someone proclaiming the truth but only cites one Bible verse. Read the verse above and below the one in question. It is even better to read the whole chapter containing the verse in question. 3) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the highest beings in the Universe. They are all God and we are made to serve Him. Anything that demotes Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit is a faulty teaching; that misinterprets the true nature of the Triune God.
1) Lesson 1: Salvation – point II says, “The first man disobeyed God’s command…this was the beginning of sin.” Then point III says, “The result of disobedience (or sin) to God.” Is he defining sin as disobedience? Or is he saying that disobedience is a sin? He never really explains what he defines sin as. If he defines it as simply disobedience, than JRS has surely missed the mark. (By the way, the Greek word for sin used in the New Testaments means “to miss the mark,” like on a bulls-eye). =) do you see my little play on words?
2) Lesson Five: Christian living –
a. Point I brings up the idea of sin again and that sins are forbidden and forsaken, yet still no definition of sin. He is allowing us to believe that sin is simply disobedience.
b. Point II, #10 says, “The Christian…He has a new family.” The scripture that he says to turn to is Ephesians 2:19-22. Read that. The only thing close to “new family” is “are of God’s household.” Since when does that mean new family? Seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.
3) Lesson 10: The Second Coming of Jesus Christ –
a. Point III. “He is coming to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS, and to be admired in ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE. II Thess. 1:7-12.” Here is what II Thess. 1:10 says: “when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed – for our testimony to you was believed.” Most Christians believe that this means He will be among us, in our midst, and we will marvel at His awesome glory. This whole idea makes me particularly uneasy. This is he only place in the scripture that this idea of Him coming back IN HIS SAINTS before his second coming is even mentioned, at least that I could find. That makes it particularly suspect.
b. Point V. “In the end-time, a great revival is to come to prepare the Saints for Jesus’ coming just like the rain prepares the fruit for harvest. James 5:7-11.” No mention of revival in this passage. Rain and harvest are mentioned, but the idea of revival is infused by JRS. Then in the same point he says, “Jesus wants a church that is pure and ready. Ephesians 5:25-27.” The scripture he points to basically says that we are made pure by the sacrifice that Jesus already made and finished…He is pointing to scripture that is speaking about marriage and how a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church…I don’t understand the connection he is making. It seems that both of the scriptures he points to in Lesson 10, point V are taken out of context.
c. Point VI. “In the end time, the power and miracles of the Bible will be restored to the church. Acts 3:19-24.” Read this scripture, I thought that maybe I turned to the wrong chapter at first, but I don’t see any mention of miracles being restored. Were they ever really lost? Draw your own conclusions.
d. Point VIII. “These end time events will come upon the earth and men will be unaware that the Day of the Lord is Dawning. I Thess. 5:1-11.” Worldly people might be unaware that the day is coming, but even the verse that he points to says that “destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” That’s in verse 3. I don’t know, the two statements don’t logically fit to me. Verse 3 describes the day of the Lord being like a woman in childbirth. Having that experience myself, I KNEW that the baby was coming. I could be being petty.
4) Lesson 11: The Church –
a. In the introduction, JRS says that all sectarian division is wrong and that we should “pray for God to put us in a local New Testament Church (not a denominational church).” He says division of the church is wrong, yet he is advocating division by saying that we should find only a “non-denominational” church…interesting. He says that “in the Bible there is only one true church, and it was not divided into denominations.” Yet there was major division in the early church. There were divisions over whether or not to circumcise, to follow the Old Testament law, to accept gentiles into their numbers, etc. Peter’s view of things was different than Paul’s, and Paul’s was different than John’s, etc. I remember hearing in a service once that a church building isn’t the church, the church is the people. Well, According to Paul Little in the book “Know What You Believe,” denominations are the same thing. A denomination isn’t the church of the Bible, the church spoken of in the New Testament is all believers in Jesus Christ.
b. Point III. “Who can become members of the church and how do hey become members?” JRS lists some vague scriptures and is actually on the right track, I just find it odd that he doesn’t actually say that those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior are considered members of the church. This is just an odd section.
5) Lesson 12: Going on with God –
b. Point VI. “Remember that all power is given to Jesus Christ to back you up.” My problem is the last four words that are added to that statement. All power is given to Jesus Christ because he is God! It is not “to back you up.” Does this seem like Jesus Christ is being made a servant to us? Draw your own conclusions.
7) Lesson 15: Discerning the true from the false – Point III and VI. “How can I know if a teaching is true” and “how can I know if a teacher or minister is sent of God?” He sites John 7:17 and (I didn't write down the right verse!). He leaves out scriptures that speak of searching the scriptures to see if things are true (Joshua 1:8, Acts 17:11, Isaiah 34:16). He instead points at a verse of Jesus speaking of Himself. One that starts with the subjective “If any man is willing to do His will…”
8) Lesson 17: Singing in the Spirit – Point IV. 1) “Distinguish Singing in the Spirit from natural singing.” Sites I Corinthians 14:15, 26. I find the verses contradictory to his point, especially when read in context. 2) “Distinguish also worship and singing in the Spirit from Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs.” Sites Colossians 3:12-17. I don’t see any separation of worship and singing in the spirit from Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Check it out for yourself.
9) Lesson 18: Our Worship – Point III #1. At the end of this point he says, “Prayer is concerned with our needs. Praise is concerned with our blessings. Worship is concerned with loving and adoring God Himself.” Well, I adore and love God in my prayers and praises, so his definitions don’t seem to fit my experiences. I decided to look up the definitions in a concordance. It defines prayer as “to ask, to worship.” The definition given for praise as a noun “acclamation, honor” and as a verb “to extol, to glorify.” The definition of worship is “to bow, to revere.” He has changed the definition of these words!
10) Lesson 10: Understanding. Introduction: “There is a faculty by which we know true doctrine when we hear it. The faculty is not our mental powers, but an ability of our spirit which is God-given to those who will do the will of God.” Does this seem like a control tactic? “Oh, the reason I know this is true is because I will to do the will of God. How come you don’t understand? You must not have the will to do the will of God.” This is the premise of this whole section, so I find the whole section faulty.
Each person is entitled to their own conclusions. I think that getting a Bible study at a Christian book store would be far more worth your while than basing your Christian Faith and your view of the Bible on The First Principles.
Alina Hope (4.242.201.222)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:20 am
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I would love to hear all CONSTRUCTIVE comments on the above posting. I will ignore postings that are rude, foul, biligerant, etc. No one can shake my faith in Jesus Christ, so you might as well not try!
XPineConeX (64.12.116.66)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:49 am
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Alina,
Thanks for taking the time to post. I respect your opinions.
Another very interesting point is that there were three editions of the First Principles. The first was the original writing by JRS (early 1950s) the second edition around the time of the late 1970s he made some subtle changes in the "definitions" lesson. He changed the definition of "submission" to make it sound much more controlling. The specifics of this, as well as much other doctrinal talking points about LWF can be found in the Spiritual Counterfeits Project report that I have referenced elsewhere on other threads.
JRS knew what he was doing with doctrine. He was brilliant at coming up with a "revelation" (or new idea that he heard or read or researched) and finding a scripture (or two, or three) to back it up. Thus the author of the SPC report calls JRS's scriptural reference in Romans 8 for resurrection life "one of the most bizzare scripture twistings in the recent history of Christianity" or something to that effect. What JRS would have called revelation, the author the SPC report (Woodrow Nichols) called twisting of scripture.
SPC had been criticizing this weeks and manuals of JRS throughout the 70s, so this info/critique was readily available if anyone ever wanted to check it out.
Also, some of the scriptures JRS used in his teachings he got from Latter Rain-influenced literature, most notably the book "The Feast of Tabernacles", written by George Warnock/Ern Baxter (can't remember which guy, but they were all associated closely with the Latter Rain movement). And much of Johns doctrine had "been circling in the backwaters of Neo-Pentacostalism for some time", (SPC report) before he recorded alot of it. Certainly he modified some of it to fit within the parameters of the Walk.
I still like the First Principles, I guess for the sentimental meaning that it was how I built my foundation in the Word. One still must chew the fish and spit out the bones, especially the lessons about sectarianism, Babylon, and especially lesson 50, 3 great steps to the perfection of the church. Woodrow Nichols criticized heavily lesson 50, for the implications of the deification of man.
Anonymous (67.115.10.151)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:23 pm
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The other night I found a short-cut through the threads--if you just type in www.factnet.org, you get the home page, click on discussion & then last day, & you will get a list of all new posts for the last 24 hours or so. Then you can scan the list for the one you want, & see who has been posting since you last looked. It saves a LOT of time.
Alina Hope (4.242.186.53)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 01:37 pm
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Jon, you said, "I still like the First Principles, I guess for the sentimental meaning that it was how I built my foundation in the Word. One still must chew the fish and spit out the bones, especially the lessons about sectarianism, Babylon, and especially lesson 50, 3 great steps to the perfection of the church. Woodrow Nichols criticized heavily lesson 50, for the implications of the deification of man."
I hope it's okay if we agree to disagree on this subject. I feel that if JRS's foundation of the word was off, (the word being the Bible) then everything he built on that was off. He built on the sand and not on bedrock, so to speak.
By the way, I know that if you don't have a First Principles on hand it would be difficult to go through my outline. I would encourage everyone to get to know their Bible by reading it for what it is - not what the First Principles makes of it.
Anonymous (152.163.252.129)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 02:37 pm
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It is interesting to me that there are many other churches and seminars that teach from the First Principles.
It is also interesting to read the twists. You are to young to have heard JRS teach these lessons and there is a lot of information and connections that you are missing. You and I both know that we can read any book and totally miss what the author is describing, just watch any movie after reading the book. Or just read the bible.
I am both glad and sad that you did not grow up in the 40's and 50's. You would not have been able to have these discussions. It was not that long ago that you would not have had the access to the scriptures either. There is a history that is awesome of many throughout the past 2000+ years of those who fought so that you could even be able to read the bible. Did they do things perfectly? I think not. Please do not judge what you think you are reading.
It is also interesting that the Pharisees, those who were educated, were the ones who worked so hard to discredit Jesus. They should have been the ones to recognize Him first.
Why take so much time to analyze anything in a negative light. (What do the first four letters spell?) You can do that with anyone or anything, still not a productive avenue.
Look at what Martin Luther did, he started a restoration "The just shall live by faith" yet he hated the Jewish people. Then the SS of Germany used what he said and persecuted the Jews.
There is a group trying to teach that the holocaust did not happen during WWII. Why? They weren't there, it is not a part of their reality.
Did you know that Jesus was a Pharisee? It was a sect in Judaism, Jesus was a Rabbi. Not all of the Pharisees tried to destroy Jesus.
Did you know that with a few exceptions, that there is a confirming scripture in the "old" testament for each verse in the "new" testament?
The "sister" book to Revelations is Genesis as strange as that may sound it is true. That is a study in itself.
Your beliefs are yours, and you have every right (now) to believe them. Every one is entitled to the same freedoms in this great country. Not so in others.
You are trying to discredit someone you don't know, that is wrong.
You seem to believe that disobedience is not sin (or visa versa). Adam's sin was his disobedience in the garden and that was simply eating the fruit of the tree he was told not to eat of. You can research and find that that is the foremost cause of any of Israels griefs. Murder was not a sin (for the Hebrews) until God said "thou shalt not commit murder". If you commit murder then it is a sin because of your disobedience.
As a people they had no guidelines or laws to abide by at that time, other than what Pharoh dictated to them. God gave them 613 laws to walk in, not just the 10 commandments as most Christians beleive.
Jesus was obedient to the laws and thus fulfilled them, He had no sin in Him.
Alina Hope (4.242.186.53)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:07 pm
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You sound like my daddy! The Jesus/Pharisee thing, the old/new testament thing. My dad says these things often in discussion.
The things I posted are MY opinions, but if JRS wanted these things to be the Principles by which his church was built on, and I am reading these wrong, don't you think he should have been a little more clear on what he was trying to portray has the principles on which his church are built? The things I found in The 1st Principles weren't twists! They are there, plain as day. I am not judging these things, or trying to tear down the church, I am logically and objectively looking at The 1st Principles. The objective being the Bible as a whole. "Where does it possibly stray from my objective?" This was my mindset. If you can disprove that these things are what he is saying, I welcome that! Please, include quotes directly from JRS.
To the disobedience thing: Disobedience IS a sin. I was trying to say that it is not the only sin, yet when reading the 1st principles, the author lets you believe that the definition of sin is disobedience. Sin is falling short, missing the mark, etc.
I never said that I wasn't gratful to be able to have my beliefs, my Bible, my freedom of speech. I can, and will, discuss why I think TLWF is off the mark. That is a privilege I have as an American. I am grateful for that.
You said, "God gave them 613 laws to walk in, not just the 10 commandments as most Christians beleive." You have been away from mainstream Christianity for so long that you don't even know that most Christians do know this! Every Christian I have ever talked about the old testament to knows this. I'm not trying to be mean, but TLWF has isolated themselves so much from other christians that they don't even know what the average christian believes.
That being said, I am taking a break to seek the Lord. I may be back, I may not.
Bill (4.11.198.22)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 04:54 pm
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Matt: 22: 37-40,
Jesus replied. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. I'm not saying forget the other 611, but to be truthful I'm still working on these 2. The First Principles was just an outline for people to get started with their study of the bible and a walk with God. If you want to know more I believe their are 1000's of tape to listen to that you can order from www.thelivingword.org. One that I would recommend would be " What I Am By The Grace Of God" 10-3-82. That tape was during the last feast of tabernacles that John ever attended.
Anonymous (152.163.252.129)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 07:56 pm
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When you talk about sin you have to use the Hebrew not the Greek. Hebrew basically says sin is turning away (being disobedient).
There is no word for repentance in the Hebrew but there is one on turning back to G-d.
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Friday, April 23, 2004 - 08:56 pm
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Alina: "To the disobedience thing: Disobedience IS a sin. I was trying to say that it is not the only sin, yet when reading the 1st principles, the author lets you believe that the definition of sin is disobedience. Sin is falling short, missing the mark, etc."
Never saw it that way and still I do not see it that way (in regards to the First Principles), though if that is how you choose to see it...
Alina: (Regarding the First Principles, Lesson One: ""The first man disobeyed God's command…this was the beginning of sin." Then point III says, "The result of disobedience (or sin) to God." Is he defining sin as disobedience? Or is he saying that disobedience is a sin?"
Man's disobedience to God's command In Gen. 2:16-17 resulted in what many call the "falling away" or "the beginning of sin." Gen. 3:6. Disobedience resulted in man turning away from God, missing the mark, falling short....
And, yes, disobedience is "a" sin.
Alina: "If he defines it as simply disobedience, than JRS has surely missed the mark."
JRS is not defining sin as "simple" disobedience. Disobedience was the beginning of sin. Isreal was disobedient to many of God's commands. The book of Hebrews is full of this. Sin came upon us through one man. Salvation from sin came also through one Man: Jesus Christ.
Sin from Stong's Concordance:
1) equivalent to 264
a) to be without a share in
b) to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed
either by a single person or by many
It is also to note in the First Principles that many things are not defined as black and white. This is for the reader to search and find an understanding therein. John gives the basic foundation, associated scriptures, and then it is up to the reader or Bible Study group to find, discuss and understand. John himself said that "these lessons are not intended to deal exhaustively with the foundational truths of the Bible; they are a simple indroduction to those great truths."
Here is the Hebrew concordance on the word sin:
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness
a) (Qal)
1) to miss
2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
3) to incur guilt, incur penalty by sin, forfeit
b) (Piel)
1) to bear loss
2) to make a sin-offering
3) to purify from sin
4) to purify from uncleanness
c) (Hiphil)
1) to miss the mark
2) to induce to sin, cause to sin
3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
d) (Hithpael)
1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Again, the rabbi teaching: To sin is to "turn away". To repent is to "turn toward".
p.s. I miss that baby!
Alina Hope (4.242.189.135)
Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 03:26 am
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Well, I just couldn't sleep until I apologized for my posts here. I didn't realize they were harsh. My husband read them and said that even though he knows my intentions that they came across differently than I meant them to. I should have listened to the Holy Spirit prompting me to stop on Wednesday.
I am frustrated that you can not hear the tone of my voice or see my intentions by just reading my posts.
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 02:35 pm
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Alina,
Posting words on the internet can never convey the actual intent of the heart unless one is fact to face. Words are the Trojan Horse by which the universe enters the mind, but not always can they express the weight of one's heart.
Don't loose any sleep!
You and Dave are always in the Swallows' heart wherever you go and whatever you do. Agree or disagree, you are always and forever loved.
Jon (64.12.116.66)
Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 03:04 am
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Alina, I love reading your posts, and we can definitely agree to disagree and still get along, b/c I respect your opinions and I know you are passionate about what you believe. No need to apologize.. we are just stating our passionately held beliefs. So, I hope you decide to keep posting!
Joseph, Bill, and Larry or anyone in the LWF,
Can you guys explain how JRS and the current leadership view politics, the business world (Wall Street), and economics? I know of the scripture "render to caesar those things that are caesars, and God those things that are Gods", etc, but I've never heard much of these topics mentioned in tapes or read much about them in This Weeks. Were there ever any specific endorsements for elected governmental officials? Did JRS ever state his opinions on these topics? Was JRS a registered voter in presidential elections or local politics, or did he ever talk about things of that nature?
Just curious, thanks!
Steve McGee (64.12.116.66)
Monday, April 26, 2004 - 06:05 am
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I like this message board. There is a lot of good information to study here. Alina's critique of "First Principles" is very good. Jon's reading list is great. I wish I could get my hands on some of those books. My School of Prophets manuals are dated 1970: The First Ministry School. Wish I could trade copies of my manuals with someone else who has later editions. Anybody have copies of 'This Weeks' from the 70's? I know that the Living Word Publications used to have bound copies of the old 'This Weeks' for $25.00, but not now, apparently. My favorite translation is still The New American Standard. It used to be mandatory in the 70's. Anybody ever heard of Jerry and Margarete Beavers? They did the Laguna Beach Church. I always wondered where they went off to after I was kicked out of the Laguna Church. (another story)
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Monday, April 26, 2004 - 05:55 pm
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Jon,
I don't ever remember anyone endorsing a government official. That would seem to me, to be a violation of separation of church and state. I know we pray for the president, no matter which party seems to be in office. As far as JRS being a registered voter, I have no idea. I know I'm not myself. I figure who shall I vote for, evil 1 or evil 2, but that's just my opinion. I guess you could say I swing a little to the right, but I think that's because it seems to help my paycheck. Selfish, I know.
Steve,
I have quite a few This Weeks and Manuals. I don't have the bound copies though. I was going through some of the older stuff and one is called,
New Life " Grow in Grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" Compiled by John Robert Stevens and Vere L. Thomas. I also found a booklett written by Samuel Shagaloff. He used to be a member in South Gate and it was written in 1958. The name was "A Warning (With Glory to God)" It's a little dated, because it's not politically correct and I didn't agree with him about women, but it was still interesting to read. I agree with you about the NAS, but the NIV is easier to read. I would die if I had to read the KJV, I know that is what everyone read when the First Principles were written. Actually, when you listen to the old tapes, everyone is saying, thee and thou and brother and sister. Not making fun, that's just the way everyone was taught. Funny thing, I remember reading something in the NIV bible, can't remember what it was. I'm thinking to myself, I don't ever remember John bringing a word about this, maybe this is a new revelation. I know 2 weeks hadn't gone by and I was reading a This Weeks dated late 60's or early 70's and their it was. Sorry I don't give more details but I'm a chicken peck typer.
Anonymous (4.242.189.100)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 01:31 am
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A realy good translation is the New King James version. If you have a hard time with the King james language this is a good translation. The King James is true to the original manuscripts and the New King James takes out the "thou's" and stuff like that but is just as true to the original text.
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:51 pm
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Anonymous,
Thanks for the recommendation. I will check out the NKJV.
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:48 pm
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Bill,
Have you yet tried Rotherham's Emphasized Bible?
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:02 pm
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Joe,
You guys are killing me. No I haven't, but I will take a look at that one also.
Steve McGee (205.188.117.20)
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:18 am
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http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_bibl.htm
http://www.bible.org/docs/soapbox/errors.htm
There are probably hundreds of bible studies, like these examples, which show how translations suffer errors in text and meaning. I know that Brother Stevens used many translations but preferred NAS because certain key scriptures were more spiritually correct.
Brother Stevens would always say how Jesus said, "The Scriptures testify about me" (John 5:39) So we were encouraged to look for the references of how God reconciled the world to Him, prepared the world to recieve Jesus, and the resurrection. Certain scriptures that refer to these topics are different in different translations.
Brother Stevens also reminded us that Jesus said, "If you remain in my Word, truly you are my disciples" (John 8:31) So looking for errors and forgeries in bible translations became a mandatory thing.
As I read these forums, here and elsewhere, about the turn that the Living Word has taken in the past 20 years, I am amazed at the errors in teaching, and how the current pastors have turned away from emphasizing the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Christ, to using the divine authority of their office to reveal the Lordship of their ministry.
It dosen't seem like they care wether anyone reads the bible or not.
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:32 pm
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Steve,
"As I read these forums, here and elsewhere, about the turn that the Linving Word has taken in the past 20 years..."
I've also read these forums, and, as one still deeply involved in TLW Fellowship, I could not but disagree further. I have never seen a turning away from the emphasis on the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Rather, the Lordship of Jesus Christ is the primary focus, with a teaching that each member learn to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. JRS never wanted followers or worshipers, but a people who walked in a oneness with Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; each with his/her own walk with God, not the position-thinking based blind following a leader whose sole emphasis was their leadship of spirituality. There are shepherds after God's heart to see the sheep come into maturity.
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible is my choice, but I always finding myself reading Rotherham's with the NAS and the NIV or KJ, just to get a better view of the Scriptures. I try to get people excited about the Bible, to search it, to let it be real to them in their daily walk with God. Understand that there are many like who DO CARE whether anyone reads the Bible or not.
By the way Steve, were not at one time at Impact and a part of the Newport Beach Church under Bob McClane?
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 11:41 am
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This Week Vol Xlll. No. 9
ARE YOU AWARE OF HIM? Page 13
There is a worship of God, a worship of the Lord Jesus Christ, that must come now, because we are not going to have oneness in one another's hearts with any significant awareness until we have it first in the heart of the Lord.
Ninety or ninety-five percent of the Kingdom of God is oneness with the Lord. The other five or ten percent is our oneness with each other. Don't ever distort this fact by thinking, "Oh, we have to live in one another's hearts!" That is just the secondary thing. The first is that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit will be one with us. Then we can be one with each other. We have heard this again and again.
This is me talking now. How many believe that this is true. This is how our focus is to be. I know I want that in my heart.
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 11:25 am
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My pastor recently brought a teaching from 1 Timothy on doctrinal error and mentioned the commonly accepted criteria for a "cult". They are: 1. Does the group claim to have superior spiritual teaching that other groups do not have? and 2. Is there difficulty exiting the group? He is president of the National Association of Evangelicals representing thousands of mainstream christian churches across the U.S. so I feel his definition is not an isolated viewpoint.
I realize the word "cult" is very offensive and nobody likes to be called offensive names. I am not calling TLW a cult but I do think TLW needs to be examined in light of this definition to see the areas where it may apply. It could be helpful for those inside TLW to know the criteria that other christians use to view groups similar to TLW.
On a personal note, it deeply concerns me to see the difficulty many have had leaving TLW. The many personal stories on this website reflect this. I now know (I didn't know while a member of TLW) that there are many healthy churches where God's people can be coached in their walk with Him. It's sad to see people "lost" for many years before they finally get their feet back on the ground. I don't feel they were being equipped to stand on their own feet with the Lord but rather raised to be dependent on others in a way that prolonged immaturity and also made them unnecessarily vulnerable to the enemy in an unhealthy way.
XWalkite (207.69.90.181)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 12:17 pm
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Living Word people are arrogant, believeing they have the only truth and all of it. I don't have any qualms about calling Living Word a cult. However I don't have any qualms about calling many more acceptable Christian sects-cults.
Jeremy Lane (67.21.17.162)
Friday, April 30, 2004 - 01:02 pm
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Hi Alina, Hi Larry... Glad to see both of you posting again!! I will be following this board now...Thanks Jon for starting it!
XWalkite (209.86.141.234)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:17 am
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Anybody that has been in one of the "designated relationships" how about posting and tell of your experiences.
GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 10:50 am
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Xwalkie: I have been in one for several years now. It's been very good for me, but I can't say that about my designee. I gave him alot of grief to say the least. His name is Jesus. As far as anyone human, I have chosen myself. And we get along just fine. Sounds righteous doesn't it? Let's just say that if I were candy I'd be divinity.
analonamous (67.115.10.236)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:28 pm
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dear grey fox , if you figured out you were your own d. r. early in the game (or late for that matter) my hat (or cap) is off to you. i wish i would have come to that faster than i did. ultimately i arrived there but it caused me to be a non participant. how did your decision sit with the earthly hierarchy or sheperding in terms of submission to them. did you or do you still take flak for taking responsibility for your own decisions? in my day saying what you said would not have been a okay thing. is your type of thinking on d. r. and submission to earthly sheperding considered okay and widespread in the church now? or are you sort of a renegade? my respect to you either way but if you are more or less on your own i imagine the flak sucks. respect to you because i agree with you about taking responsibility for all my own decisions. i more or less try to listen to everything but when it comes time to pull the trigger on a decision i want to sink or swim on what i thought was best. if there is a great white throne judgement day for me, i want to tell god why i did what i did in everything, because that is what i thought was the best thing to do. rather than someone else told me this was the right thing for me to do. if there is a heaven and hell i defintely want to have full responsibility for where i end up. sink or swim. from my starh*le to yours, analonamous
analonamous (67.115.10.236)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 12:38 pm
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p.s. grey fox, i think that would be considered a post from the dimmer bulb section of the light bank. from the left side of my crimping muscle, analonamous
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 09:39 pm
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Everyone,
I started the post " The Ghost in the Machine". On the 1st post, I only wrote the 1st 3 lines. The other was added later by someone else. Just to give you a heads up.
Anonymous (66.215.8.128)
Monday, May 03, 2004 - 03:52 am
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...
Steve McGee (152.163.252.129)
Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:49 am
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Joseph,
In your reply, you say that you disagree with my statement: "---in the past 20 years, I am amazed at the errors in teaching, and how the current pastors have turned away from emphasizing the Holy Spirit's function to reveal the Lordship of Christ---"
You then said: "---the Lordship of Jesus Christ is the primary focus, with a teaching that each member learn to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. JRS never wanted followers or worshipers---"
I am not currently involved with TLW fellowship, I left the house of prophets in Sepulvada (actually the house was in Northridge) back in the 70's, and moved to Laguna. Then got into a fight with Blair, one of Bob McClain's elders, or whatever he was. But I never left the teaching as I knew it and learned it from JRS. I miss the worship of those days. Once I painted Brother Steven's house with help from some of the guys at the HOP, and girls at the Blix House, and had a chance to talk personally with him about his visions of the Kingdom that he received from the Lord. He talked about the Company. I'm sure you are aware.
Now, with the help of internet access, I can read about Brother Stevens again, and also observe the current leadership and pastorship from other people's experience. I have listened to Gary's tapes. And I miss the emphasis that I got from Brother Stevens. The emphasis on my personal relationship to Jesus, my strengthened faith, my direction. What I get from the new pastors (Gary) is something else. It is an emphasis of 'surrender' (not submission) to his authority. Gary's tapes just make me try to figure out what is going on with him, rather that what is going on with me and God.
With Brother Stevens, it was never a blind submission thing to him either, but rather just not being rebellious to the Lordship of Christ and His anointed Apostolic Ministry.
Also, it's disturbing to hear of the going's on with divorce and re-marrying and all the craziness. I actually called the Apostles and brethren in Washington, Iowa, after John's death and asked what was going on. They told me stories of John's disorientation, illness, and mental confusion, causing others to follow wrongly, after their own desires. Taking advantage of his condition, rather that defending the faith, they divorced and married younger girls and so forth. They warned me not to go back, but to find other churches who kept the Living Word original vision. Of course I never found out which churches those were. (??)
I live in Atlanta now. I still read my This Weeks and listen to Brother Stevens Tapes. I will never give up my faith to any other, except what I know from walking with God as a member of Brother Stevens Church.
Thanks for your positive comments about the church today, I will probably include more of the newer tapes when I order old literature from L.W.Publications. My prayers are with the faithful.
Nothing about me fixed in stone. I'll always follow God, not my own judgements.
Jon (64.12.116.66)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 05:04 am
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Bill and others,
Ok guys, I just had a major revelation about something..
Ok, so we've been discussing the concept of sheparding ad nauseum on this thread.
I just remembered that This Week called "The Right to a Higher Confirmation". Anyone remember it, there is a guy holding up a scroll with a halo around him?
That this week gives scriptural reference to the idea that if you don't bear witness to a word that someone gives you, a commission over you, or a direction from someone sheparding you, you have a right to a higher confirmation. You can go past that immediate person to the next person up in authority, and bring your case. And if you don't have a witness, you can stand your ground.
YOU CAN STAND YOUR GROUND AND EXERCISE THE RIGHT TO A HIGHER CONFIRMATION!
For instance, if I think its lame that my designated relationship is telling me to do something unreasonable or to not do something, and I disagree, not only can I speak up if I disagree, I can exercise my right to a higher confirmation, from a ministry with more authority. For instance, if it is local shepard in such and such a church, you can go to the overseeing elders of the church, or that persons shepard. The point is, that you don't have to give blanket acceptance to the word. In fact, you shouldn't. You should be weighing the word before the Lord, testing the word, praying about the word.
Its ok to have a difference of opinion if you don't bear witness. If you don't bear witness, you don't! And there is no reason to apologize for it.
I have one question: Why haven't we been exercising this right to a higher confirmation? Which leads to another question, why didn't I exercise this right when I was crossed by my shepard?
The answer is, fear. I was afraid to disagree, afraid that simple disagreement and assertiveness would be perceived as maverick, loose cannon disobedience. That I would not be loved or accepted.
This fear is completely irrational! But there is a culture that exists in our sheparding that fosters fear and not thinking for ourselves. We should reject this. Wherever this fear came from, it did not come from Christ. Perfect love casts out fear. And there is no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus. We are bigger and more mature than that. We should be able to respectfully disagree and not get so beat up over being corrected.
If we could understand this, Gary would not have to bring words about "Correction is not Rejection", because we wouldn't fear rejection.
I think the answer to the sheparding problem is simple: We all need to get some balls!
We need to learn to hear from God, study the scriptures, grow in Him, and be led by the Spirit. Sheparding should only be for on-course correction of those who are in motion, growing in the Lord, to busy with that to be beat up over a simple correction. And if the correction is B.S., you can call it B.S.
We are too passive. We need to have a fire shut up in our bones, a desire to grow in the Lord. Bad sheparding should be like iron sharpening iron, and you should call it B.S. if you think it is. If everyone did this, the leadership would make changes.
I also just realized this: how can we expect shepards to be perfect if they have never done it before. Mistakes will always be made. Sheparding is a learning curve, just like anything else. I got wounded in my little sheparding experience, but that was because I had no balls to stand up for myself and speak my mind, the truth in love. If I had spoken up, or exercised my right to a higher confirmation, I guarantee things probably would have turned out better.
Your shepards won't know how you feel unless you tell them. The problems won't get solved until you speak up.
By the way, what I am saying is really a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, since I am not in a LWF church or in a designated relationship per se right now, so I really don't need to be sounding off about what I perceive to be problems without willing to be a part of the solution to those problems. Who am I to judge? My experience was very unique and just one of many. But I just want everyone to learn from my experience.
I think that exercising our right to a higher confirmation would really help work through quirks in sheparding and PREVENT wounding and abuse. There is always a right to do it, but it must be exercised.
What do you guys think? Larry, Bill, Chad?
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:23 pm
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Jon, ditto!
I have been in situations where I had totally disagreed and sought confirmation. That was the reason I originally left the Anehim Church and was away for several years.
I remember going to an Sunday AM service in the twilight Anehim days and the elders blocked the door and would not let me in. I threatened to kick their ass and I walked in anyway, letting them know that I had nothing to fear or hide from. The walls were enormous.
Bob Barton was bringing the word that morning. Right in the middle of his word, Bob stopped, starting crying and said: "Joe Swallow, I love you!" That broke the ice! Bob always had a special place in my heart after that.
Later I came back through the Redlands Church and many of the brethren from Anehim came and repented to what had been done, one on one. I also repented for being angry. For me there was a deep healing. I like the concept of "having balls" and a walk with God with confirmation. That's what John taught and what Gary has been teaching us to walk in! If you listen to the word brought by Gary, he is bringing John's word and disgesting it down on a level that we can all walk in it, fulfilling John's visions. We're all human and we all make mistakes. That's why we have a right to a higher confirmation, so that we can walk in a word and know, without a doubt, that it is a word from God and not the opinion of man.
Thank you, Jon!
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:06 pm
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I think spiritual growth is very similar to natural growth. In a healthy family, you do not seek to have your forty year old children living at home, looking to you for every decision in their lives. You've done your job as a parent when they can stand on their own two feet, provide for, and make decisions for themselves. Sometimes it's difficult to watch the choices they make, and you know from your own mistakes that there could be rough water ahead. Nevertheless, some of those mistakes will become their most valuable learning experiences. Watching them succeed without your input in the minute details of their lives is very fulfilling.
I don't think getting "balls" will change the dynamics of the Walk maturity development system. There really is not an open door for disagreement except the door out of the group. I do think it is very valuable to learn to hear and obey the Lord for yourself with confirmation, not control. Healthy leadership encourages independence. Remember the Covey steps? 1. Dependence 2. Independence 3. Interdependence. The scarey part is if you let someone honestly be free, they may not choose everything you have told them to choose. The good part is that they will bring back to the table answers that you were not able to provide for them. Hopefully, you will be willing to listen and the parent/child relationship will develop into a mutual respect as adults and continue to grow. You will always be the parent, but not always the boss.
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:08 am
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Jon,
I noticed you like to use my initials alot, B.S. (lol) I agree with you. Even if Larry is right and they show you the door, do like Joe and come right back through it. I know that's easy to say, but it couldn't hurt. Some way, by the grace of God, we need break this division, where we offend one another, and they have to leave. You do have a right to a higher confirmation. I know it's hard when you give someone advice, which you think is for their own good, to get mad at them or hurt at first, but when it's all over you realize you still love them. In the This Week you were refering to, Gideon even wanted confirmation after God himself told him what to do. If God didn't have a problem with it, why should we.
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:43 am
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Bill,
I think it's important to realize that many have found an answer in not returning to the Walk. After experiencing the Walk, would you want to go back to an "old order" church that you knew in the 1960's? I know I wouldn't. That is the way I now view the Walk - it would be a giant step backwards. I think TLW has been relatively stagnet over the last twenty years compared with what is happening in other parts of the body - especially in Africa. Remember John saying that if we didn't walk in this word, God would raise up a people who would. You might want to take a look around - what is happening is not what you are being told in the Walk. I think you are being kept out of circulation and it's not healthy. I still though would like to have relationships with all the parts of the body without having to belong to that particular group. I think these divisions are man made not God made and we all need each other. I miss the people, not the doctrines.
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 02:30 am
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Larry,
Having a relationship with all the parts of the body is the key. It has never been stressed that TLW is "The Body", but only a piece. The relationships have extended outside of TLW with many. I'm grieved that you've been so isolated and cut off from what others of us in "the Walk" have known and experienced.
I've had a Bible study for over three years outside of TLWF and consisted of people from numerous churches and faiths. It has been a wonderful lesson for all involved.
The circulation is happening, even being guests of other churches which I have attended with others.
There is no division. Not now. Yes, TLWF has been in isolation and that has ended. It is for the health of the church and it is happening.
Keep your relationship open with Sayers, even if you are no longer a part of TLW. That is okay. If you need to move on, do so, with my blessing.
But it all comes down to this one fact: The Lordship of Jesus Christ in each of our lives. If that is your foundation, no matter where you go, you are dwelling in the heart of God.
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:46 am
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"Yes, TLWF has been in isolation and that has ended. It is for the health of the church and it is happening. "
Joseph,
How has that ended? What steps has TLWF been taking to relate outside its walls--particularily within the leadership?
Mike
Joseph (4.4.9.151)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:54 pm
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Mike,
Alot of wonderful circumstances have developed, beginning several years ago. First Reverend Keys in Washington, DC connected in with G&M providing insight and ministry. Next came the connection with Shlomo Hizak (sp?) and Yoran Larrssen from the Jerusalem Center, bringing many from TLW to Jerusalem for a two week semenar over a three year period, involving several hundred making the trip. This opened the door to several Jewish Rabbis who have visited the Church of the Living Word in North Hills over the last few years. Bill Hart has reconnected with Gary and Marilyn and offered substantial insight and ministry to them, and has opened the door to churches in Texas and North Carolina to give TLW what it lacks in connecting outside its fringes as well as drawing upon the worship and word from TLW. Kobas Schwartz from South Africa has done the same.
There are many doors opening as well as ministry to TLWF to get us out of our isolation. We need the ministry of other churches, from those beyond our walls; and TLWF has something to offer back.
I've always felt that God has raised up different churches for different, diverse, unique functions of the Body of Christ. On the human plane we see division, denominations, etc. I think God has had a purpose beyond what we see or understand. All things work to the good of those who love God and are called to a purpose.
We seen open doors here locally in Lake Oswego.
I don't think we (TLWF) could move on into maturity without the input, connection, and ministry from those outside. And it has been happening.
Mike, I hope that helps.
Joseph
GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 02:46 pm
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Joseph: Thanks for putting another nail in my coffin. Looks like I'll be up all night praying again. Reaching out, huh? From what I know, most of these people don't want our literature, not even from John. Reaching out? So, we're playing "let's follow the world"? Yea, I guess Jesus did the same thing-he was loved by all of religion during his time. Jesus taught us to "blend" every joint supplies-God knows it doesn't work inside the body-so let's give it a shot outside. I'm sure we can all come to a gentleman's agreement. Lovely!
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:26 pm
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Joseph:
"First Reverend Keys in Washington, DC connected in with G&M providing insight and ministry"
Yeah--I remember Reverend Keys from the last shepherds conference I attended (in '96 I think). He chastised the shepherds for placing G & M on a pedestal and being so 'serious.' Gary countered by saying that it was not a problem--that the people need to relate to each other the way they do to them.
Rev. Keys also said that--based on his own experience raising a family--that the father ministry needs to couple being authoritative with befriending the children (paraphrased, of course). He felt that many of his own kids would have had a lot less trouble in their lives (apparently some of them do jail/prison time) if he had been more flexible. After Rev. Keys left, Gary said he disagreed with this approach as well--stating that shepherds should not be friends with those they minister to (again, paraphrased)--stressing the importance of authority and submission.
Bottom line: the impression I got at the time was Rev. Keys felt uneasy about the culture promoted at TLWF. Perhaps things are different now.
Mike
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 04:54 pm
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Mike or Joe,
Who was this Reverend Keys. I've heard about him on this board.
XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:01 am
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Guys,
I attended a joint church service held at the D.C. LWF church with the LWF guys and Rev Keys and his congregation. It was very cool and very refreshing to see the mixing. We sang LWF songs and some of the songs from their hymnal, we had a big lunch afterwards and just talked.
It was great outreach. God was glorified. It was cool.
I remember John Stevens used to talk about Kobas Swart on tapes. Thats neat that he is reunited with the LWF after 20+ years!
Jon T (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 06:08 am
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Bill Summerville,
Sorry about all the coincidental matching of the initials there! Not my intention! Also, perhaps we should modify the statement "getting some balls" to "getting some guts". But it just doesn't sound as good! lol!
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 08:47 pm
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Jon,
You don't have to apologize about the initials. I was just kidding. I like "getting some balls", I also think it sound better. Maybe not if a person is a female. We'll use it until someone complains.
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 10:20 pm
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What I was wondering. Was the Rev Keys, by any chance Alan Keyes. Thanks.
Anonymous (147.72.101.2)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 10:45 am
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Bill,
Alan Keyes is a conservative Roman Catholic, so he is not the same person as Rev. Keys.
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:12 pm
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Rev. Keys did not write the Star-spangled banner, as far as I know.
Mike
analonamous (66.123.255.106)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 04:45 pm
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you put the rev. keys in the ignition when you want to drive your car backwords. hope this helped clear things up a bit. analonamous
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 05:10 pm
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Anonymous, Mike, Analonamous,
Well at least I know he's not Alan Keys. But at this point, who cares. I got a good laugh.
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:10 pm
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I had the priviledge of providing Bishop Keys with transportation severeal times from his hotel to the Palmer Lake facility during a shepherds conference. He's a special guy and we shared a few good laughs. He wasn't a big fan of the diet at the time (neither was I) so we made several stops at Safeway and other houses of ill repute for food suppliments. I love a good salad - along with my big juicey steak. In hindsight, this rebellion may have been the start of my demise in TLW. Hopefully, others will learn from my mistake.
Bill (4.11.192.39)
Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:16 pm
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Larry,
I was wondering, where you went to church, was it considered rebellion if you ate a steak. If so, I guess I'm one rebellious person.
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 01:38 am
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Bill,
I attended church in Palmer Lake where eating the G&M diet was emphasized. You were not considered rebellious for eating other foods, (I meant that somewhat figuratively) other foods were just not served at the facility. You had to leave the premises to eat differently. (Perhaps there is also a spiritual parallel.)
Actually, I was just making light of the whole "proper" diet equals resurrection life concept. In Romans 14:17 it says, "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." Jesus also said, "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean', but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'. Paul further warned Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1-5, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocrital liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."
Of course I think it is wise to take care of your physical body. I just don't think new age vegetarianism is the true path to the kingdom. I think proper exercise is equally important to a healthy lifestyle as well as what you feed on spiritually, mentally, and emotionally.
Anonymous (64.12.116.66)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:14 pm
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Gary & Marilyn never required anyone to eat vegetarian or any other way. They specifically said time after time this is what they were being led to do and each person should eat how they wanted. Gary had a servere medical emergency a couple of years ago and the doctors told him the only reason he survived was because he was in such good physical condition when he got sick. So this way of eating help him. Most people in America are concerned about what they are eating. These days everyone is going towards a healthier lefestyle. BUT There was never ever directives given for people to eat a certain way and no one was ever asked to leave a church because of their diet. Mr Bobo is spinning a big yarn again. I think he has told these untrue stories so long he has started to believe his own fantasy. Better be careful GOD is watching you.
Anonymous (68.4.19.34)
Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:56 pm
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Was anyone around when they did the talent show at the Glendale High School Auditorium? They had a song (we have a record made of the show...yes, a record, remember those?) called "Barnyard Breakdown". Does anyone remember that?
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 01:24 am
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Anonymous,
I did not say G&M required anyone to eat vegetarian. I said my local church chose to follow G&M's diet in the meals they served at the facility and if you wanted to eat something different than what they were serving you would have to go into town. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believe people were asked to leave the church over diet. But to imply that people were not influenced to follow G&M's diet is to me spinning a big yarn. I just don't think that the focus on diet as a key to divine life is scriptural. Maybe you could share the wonderful things that have happened for you and how you are now overcoming death.
analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:17 pm
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dear larry, "better be careful god is watching you." oooooooooooooooooooh, ooga booga allah kazaam. rizzle razzle dizzle doh! oooooooooooooooooh, ooga booga shondala! peace, analonymous
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 10:57 am
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I can tell when something strikes a nerve - the personal attacks and accusations of lies start up. You might want to go back and reread what was said - I may have made a valid point. God watching me gives me strength and hope - not fear.
Bill (4.11.193.228)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 01:28 pm
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Larry,
I think people might have taken you wrong when you posted on Sun. May 9th at 10:10 pm. In hindsight, this rebellion may have been the start of my demise in TLW. I knew you weren't serious, but some people might take it wrong.
GreyFox (198.81.26.106)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:02 pm
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Hey, Larry! Looks like you've got a new follower. Bill's posting your words in red, just like Jesus! Well, all I can say now is that Bill's posts are like the peace of God; they pass all understanding.
analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 08:34 pm
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dear larry, ooga booga is not a "personal attack". allah kazaam is not a "accusation of lies". i can't remember exactly what rizzle razzle dizzle doh means although i'am certain it is niether a attack or accusation. i know that "god watching you" would not bring any discomfort to you. i was refering to the anonymous 64 12 116 66 post. that being said, i want you to sit down shut up and eat that big bowl of sprouts i made you. and i want you to like them dammit! peace analonymous
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, May 14, 2004 - 01:15 am
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Analonymous,
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was refering to the Anonymous post, not to yours. I thought what you said was funny. I've eaten enough sprouts - they make me blow chunks. About thirty years ago, I lived on just sprouts and distilled water for several months. I'm 6'2" and weighed 125 lbs. - not a pretty sight. (I'm over 200 lbs. now) I was a vegetarian for several years as well as living off wild foods.
I've tried many things with diet and am convinced it is not a vital key to the kingdom. It shouldn't be too much longer before TLWF figures that out and God changes his mind about foods. Some of my weird hippy friends would have experienced divine health years ago if diet was the answer. I think I was closer to death than life. Sorry, you can have my sprouts - but thanks for the offer - I'll stick with my evil steak (which has not been sacrificed to idols) and potato (with a few veggies of course).
Bill,
I was not being serious - just trying to evaluate my old nature and determine the root of the real reason I left the walk. I realize now that there is no possible way I could sincerely want to walk with God without being a part of TLWF since they are the only true followers of Jesus. (Just for clarification - I'm not being serious.)
GreyFox,
Thanks for the keen observation. For a few moments, I thought I was once again Christ in the flesh. I can hear the throngs now. "Crucify him! Death to the blowout!"
Take care.
analonymous (67.115.11.24)
Friday, May 14, 2004 - 02:45 am
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dear larry, i'm sorry for the misunderstanding to. larry, bill, grey fox, what the heck, everyone gather around for a big group hug! ummmmm i'm feeling it, are you? hey! who did that reach around? that's not right, no cyber gooseing! one of you jokers sure know how to ruin a very special moment. peace, analonymous
XPineConeX (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 03:10 am
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Hi Everyone,
First off, I’d like to say how much I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts. Not only are they very interesting (and somewhat entertaining), they have helped me realize that other people have gone through the same process of questioning/searching/thinking that I’ve gone through and it has been refreshing and reassuring. I want to say thank you to everyone who has posted.
I’ve been thinking a lot and have come to the conclusion that although posting and reading on this website has been therapeutic and healing to all of us, perhaps it is not the best forum for discussing the topics that are being discussed. The reason I think this is because the other day I re-read every one of my posts, and realized that some bitterness, anger, and attack was coming through in some of them. It was good for me to vent, and has made me feel more healed than ever from past wounds, but me pointing out perceived problems or shortcomings in the church on the world wide web really does nothing for me, because I already know how I feel about them, and its not helping the Living Word Fellowship which has been making a concerted and sincere effort to reach out into the Christian community over the last several years. I would not want something I say to hinder in the slightest bit that progress.
Secondly, I realized that the source of a lot of my generalized anger came from one sheparding experience that I perceived as bad, but someone else may have perceived to be good for me. There were other variables in my situation aside from the sheparding that I had not considered previously. I realized that for me to take this one perceived bad experience out of my ten years of very positive experiences in the Living Word Fellowship and use it to make a critique really isn’t doing myself or the Living Word Fellowship justice.
Third, I’ve realized that I really don’t have a place to criticize anything about the LWF unless I am a part of a local church. Until then, I am like one of those people who always moan and groan about politics but never register to vote in elections or become involved in a part of the solution to what they perceive to be problems.
Therefore, I will not criticize anything about the church anymore on this board, as long as I currently attend another church outside of the Fellowship and live away from the churches. I’ve been thinking about the scripture “if any man has a problem with his neighbor, he needs to go to the neighbor in private and resolve the problem”. I think simple, honest, candid, bold communication between parties will go a long way in resolving issues that arise in the churches, rather than me or anyone else sounding off on the world wide web.
I would not be who I am today if it were not for the close relationships I developed, the mentoring (sheparding) I had, the worship I experienced, the training and teaching in the scriptures, and the discipline I acquired while being a part of the Living Word Fellowship. I am a much better person for it. I take pride in that fact. And the fruit of my own life today is testament to how my experience in TLWF planted many seeds that are now bearing fruit. The fruit being the fulfillment of words I had had spoken over me, and my ability to bless and minister to many different people in many ways, and my knowledge of the scriptures. Alot of it came from impartation by people in the LWF.
The Living Word Fellowship has a uniqueness that I have not appreciated among any other Christian fellowship in my many years of trying different churches and fellowshipping with other Christians. I am proud of my unique heritage in this movement.
The Body of Christ needs what the Living Word Fellowship has. I am cognizant of the fact that there has been a lot of water under the bridge, but today is a new day. I think the leadership is more open than ever to new ideas and lines of communication with the rest of the Church.
All Christians need each other in this world. I think those currently in and out of the LWF are really all on the same side. We are all trying to walk with God. The world needs the love and faith of all of us, working together, not against each other. And my family and I need all of your prayer and support as well.
To all members of the Living Word Fellowship, past and present, involved and not involved, who know me and my family and have been reading my posts, I love you guys a lot! I really do. And if we don’t know each other, I hope to meet you sometime. I hope you and your families are doing great. You guys are on my heart all the time. I pray for you and think about you every day. I look forward to seeing and talking to you all in the future. I’m sorry if any of my critical comments offended anybody, I am just trying to express myself somewhat imperfectly. Even if you disagree, you have to admit the posts are very interesting to read, and they make good points! (e.g., you had to read them all to finally get to this one!) Perhaps things were said that needed to be said somehow, some way, and this is where they found their place.
I would like to apologize for using specific people’s names in my posts without their prior consent, although my doing so demonstrated how much respect I have for all of you. In the future I will not do that, since everyone has a right to privacy that we should respect.
No one has any control over what is posted on this discussion board, and I respect what everyone has to say, good or bad, as long as we do it in a respectful manner. I hope to lead by example by doing this.
By the way: I was contacted by some friends in the LWF about my posting on this board, and it was more of an inquiry as to how I was doing, and a suggestion that I should pray about it, than a suggestion to stop. So, this post was constructed as an independent thought by me as a result of thinking about it and praying about it for about a week, in case anyone was wondering. i.e. no pressure was put on me to stop posting critiques, it is a decision I came to independently after a week of thinking about.
Also, I know that if you go back and read all of my posts, it might seem as if I am doing a 180 in my attitude towards the LWF with this post. I am! I realize that we are all Christians, on the same side, who need each others love and support. The focus should not be quibbling about doctrine (everyone knows my opinions on that ad naseum!). The focus should be on glorifying Jesus Christ together and being a support to one another. We agree on that always.
It has been terrific to be contacted via email from friends in the LWF that have read these threads. If anyone ever wants to talk about anything, just send me an email. I like hearing from you and appreciate your feedback as well. Plus, I want to know what everyone is up to these days!
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 12:39 pm
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Hey Jon:
I've appreciated your posts since (I believe) they were born out of a desire for understanding--expressing your thought processes--and not simply to vent bitterness or cause ill will to those you've known & loved. You don't impress me as someone looking to cause trouble. Nonetheless, I wish you the best. BTW, should you be in need of an irrelevant, inappropriate joke (or two) feel free to contact me by email. I'll see what I can muster up.
Mike
unknown (68.119.47.6)
Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 08:12 pm
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i dont know the church or doctrine you are talking about i am a member of a HOLINESS CHURCH i beleive in speaking with tongues healings and the GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:30 am
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Just a heads up to my friends on this board: I maybe absent for awhile since I'm planning to post some messages on 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba'--only because I like its name. Actually, my Mom revealed recently that I uttered something similar as my first words (I learned 'Mom' and 'Dad' a few months later--just after 'no')--so I'm going to check it out and hopefully uncover some personal truth.
Mike Baba
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 11:31 am
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maybe=may be
analonymous (66.123.255.62)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:19 pm
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dear mike, thanks for staying "connected". analonymous
analonymous (66.123.255.62)
Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 06:55 pm
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dear mike, i have been visiting the "church of the subgenius" message board under the religous cults and sects heading. it looks like a fun group. the first post has a link to it's website. not much info but lots of pictures! i also have been into the nigerian student cults message board. the "axe is good but lost d vision now ban is d best" thread is my favorite! i post under the name of ibmbatota. well i just wanted to touch base and let you know what i have been up to. peace, analonymous
Anonymous (66.123.255.105)
Friday, July 02, 2004 - 10:56 am
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I'm wondering if anybody who has left the body (TLWF) & NOT joined another church? Why? or Why should you join a different one?
Churchless (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 02:54 pm
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I haven't missed being a part of TLWF, nor have I felt a need to seek out another church as a replacement (or upgrade). I echo CMP's comment that the conditioning of being intensely involved in something that basically amounted to mind-control has sort of negatively tainted my perception of Christianity as a whole. It's not fair, but it's how it is. Then factor in that I'm sort of an independent sort to begin with and the odds of me joining another fellowship in the near future becomes even more remote. It's not that I lack opportunity. In my line of work I come across many Christians--most very nice, uplifting people--that invite me to their particular church and I haven't taken any of them up yet. One of them was a teleevangelist--perhaps the only one I've know who didn't strike me as ridiculously insincere--and I rebuffed his efforts at the time.
I suppose if Jesus, along with the Father and Holy spirit, appeared to me personally and made one of those offers I couldn't refuse--I would probably change my ways. But for now it's feels like asking someone that was released from a
long-term poisonous marriage to start seriously dating again.
That said, I do appreciate the posts of those that are finding God/fellowship in other Christian churches (Alina, Larry B., Elizabeth, Donna etc.). My post is to no way discredit their positive experiences...I'm confident they're valid. I'm just not there yet.
Mike Jones
P.S. As an aside, my first ministry from JRS (in '78) was noting the fact that I was a free-lance spirit--which carried a very negative connotation in the walk. He complemented my wife to be as being a 'submissive spirit' --maybe in part because she she worked endless hrs. for no pay at a certain KD business at the time.
Anyway, we are celebrating independence day this weekend--so it's not all bad.
PPS: If there was a new church that gave one of those Nextel walkie-talkie phones out to new congregants, I might join. I hate to be so crass, but those phones are IMPORTANT TO ME!
donna (205.188.117.20)
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 02:07 am
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I have not joined another church since finally leaving TLWF in the mid-90's (sorry to burst your bubble Mike Jones!) In fact, just about the only time I step into a church is for a wedding or a funeral and that's about once per year. I have however, gone with one of my friends to Catholic mass a couple of times during this past Lenton season just to see what the big hoopla was about. I'm surprised the church didn't catch on fire-what with my rebellious ways!
Anyhow, the main reason I have not joined a church or go regularly to church is because I don't feel the need. I ABSOLUTELY believe that one does not have to go or join a church to profess his/her faith in God or any other type of organized religion. I live in the (Southern Baptist) Bible Belt region; if there's not a bank or CVS or Eckerd drugstore on the corner, there's bound to be a church!!! Or I can just turn on the TV and flip channels just about anytime and day of the week to catch my fill. My personal favorite time is Sunday morning--it's a regular buffet-Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, non-denominational, etc. It is quite apparent to me who the practicing religious are and those who practice on Sundays or special holidays-talk about your hypocrits!
I have many friends who invite me on a regular basis to attend service with them and I have gone once or twice. But after my years of growing up in the Walk and it's brain-washing, experiences and isolation of it being the "chosen" walk with God, I am very leary of participating in organized religion of any type, at any committment level. I guess I am burned-out and gun-shy so to speak. I have long believed that church participation is not an indicator of how you function spiritually or your committment to your faith. And doesn't the Bible quote somewhere that "...if two or more are gathered in his name..." you are having a meeting with God or something like that.
I have learned more about different religious beliefs and myself as a spiritual person by just simply asking my friends questions about their religious traditions, practices, holidays, rituals, etc. I have found that there are many similarities in beliefs and practices and that no "one" religion is better than another. I have two friends who are very religious and of different religions. My one friend and her husband are teachers and principal of their church's school/home-school programs. Everything about their life is wrapped up in their level of involvement in their church--they even live on the church property, about 50 yards from their pastor's house, the church building, and the school--in different directions. (And no, they're not a part of the Walk, Shiloh, or anything else associated with TLWF!) My other friend has a sister who is becoming a preacher/minister. Both friends have told me separately, that just by talking to me ocassionally about religious affairs and interacting with them, it is refreshing for them and uplifting. They look at it from the perspective that they are able to "witness" to someone (which meets their needs for spiritual fulfillment) and at the same time respect my religious values, which is non-threatening and not overbearing. Plus, they always tell me in a joking manner, one day I'll come around.
So to address anonymous' question about why or why not join another church--I think for me--I am not seeking a group, a specific person, or a building to validate my spirituality and my level of committment to God. I think it is up to each individual to determine their own spiriual and committment levels and if you want someone to validate you, join a church!
Mike (68.8.149.153)
Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 01:11 pm
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Donna:
"So to address anonymous' question about why or why not join another church--I think for me--I am not seeking a group, a specific person, or a building to validate my spirituality and my level of committment to God."
So there's no "Church of the Blessed Donna" on the horizon? Man, am I disappointed!
Mike
P.S. sorry for the error of including you with those that have begun attending other churches since leaving TLWF. From now on I will not only read all these posts, but note who's writing them.
Anonymous (66.123.255.105)
Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 09:55 pm
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Thanks for responding to my question regarding joining another church--I have enjoyed reading the answers--I myself have not even gone looking for a church--only step foot in ones for weddings, funerals, baptisms & 1st communions. That's enough for me. Also, after going to 3+ services a week for 25 years, living at Shiloh, working in a KD business for slave wages--I figure I've gone to church enough!!
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:43 am
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"Also, after going to 3+ services a week for 25 years, living at Shiloh, working in a KD business for slave wages--I figure I've gone to church enough!"
You got paid for working in a KD business? Man, some people were sure pampered!
As far as the service thing went, the most extreme schedule I was subjected to was when I was in South Gate during the time Statton pastored (early 90's). I think for a time we were trying to mimick JRS's schedule (like 7 services a week)... On the bright side, anything that had Statton involved was always interesting. In spite of his crazy service obsession, I would say the few yrs. I had with him (& Jeff Pfeiffer) were the only consistently enjoyable time I had at TLWF. There was actually laughter...most of it, I think, generated from trying so f**#ing (D. Cheney word) hard to make things work--in an unworkable system.
Mike
Larry Bobo (198.81.26.106)
Friday, July 16, 2004 - 11:40 pm
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Hey Mike,
I think Dan's crazy service obsession originated in Des Moines. We had services Sunday AM and PM, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday AM and PM as well as intercession M-F AM and PM. In between that there was the kingdom school, co-op, choir, high school and college programs, workdays etc.
I sure loved and appreciated Dan. He was a bright spot in my Walk memories and I am thankful for the times I shared with him. It was very sad to hear he had passed away. His family were all very special to me as well.
Don Gimble (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 01:42 pm
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Mike Jones I would like to talk to you. I am at dgimble@yahoo.com I just want to say hi and talk off line since I know you from the many visits you and your wife made to Shepherd conferences. Not to bitch or moan but just to say how much i appreciate hearing your comments during that time even though G of G and M may not have.
Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Friday, July 23, 2004 - 04:17 pm
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JT I remember when you tried to come back to Shiloh. You had to hang around with Steve and Kathy. They only liked people that they thought were perfect and trouble free. I guess they were mistaken.
Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Monday, July 26, 2004 - 11:18 am
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Other skills TLWF has helped hundred of kids and adults alike add to their resumes once they leave the divine way. Professional Iowa Corn Picker, Speaker of Death Prayers (to individuals and to companies competing against their Kingdom Business),snow shoveler, garbage collector, saw mill safety engineer (able to count to by sevens using both hands),vegetable chopper, nut cracker, Preparer of food for any self professing cult leader, Kingdom School teacher working below minimum wage or free as long as they are in charge of corporal punishment, creative finance, tomato canner and carp catcher.
Lael (149.174.164.83)
Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:21 pm
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Anonymous. Why be anonymous is my first question. But are you talking about steve and kathy lafaurie? You couldn't have said it any better regarding how they choose to accept people. It's disgusting and quite tragic how much "power"/spiritual leadership" they have over people. They are the epitomy of power trip
Anyone out there who lived in the building at Shiloh during 1990, or who wants to know what really went on, or lets talk boot camp with Phil Forbes, just for kicks
Lael
Anonymous (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 09:13 am
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Leal
Yes I am talking about the same S and K LaF. No one could live up to their religious expectations. Not even their precious little "princess'" of daughters. Noticve how they did not stay around. I was there when G&M kicked their own daughter out for being a lesbian. I was there for the boot camp era and the after school program. Remember that?? I am sure you did because all three of you,your sister and brother(R and J) were in it too. And S McD was so rude and mean, so was Bob. Whatever happened to Bob?? One day he was just out completely and just coming to church and sitting in a regular row. How is R's oldest bot doing?
Donny (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 09:14 am
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I am wondering if we could all write to this board since there are five of them and it is hard to check all five everytime I want to respond.
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:07 am
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Donny:
Well, there's actually six (if you include the no.homo board)--but I get your point. At least when you first check in you have a listing of all the boards and the most recent activity. That makes it somewhat easier.
Mike
P.S. I think one of my rabbits could be a lesbian. I'm getting rid of it today.
Donny (204.156.7.47)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:15 am
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Thanks Mike
I did not realize it relists the latest activities to the top of the board. How un-observant of me. I must not have had "my spirit in my shoes."
Alina Hope (4.242.189.208)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:05 pm
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Donny, something else that helps is this. If you go to factnet's homepage and click on discussions then click on last day or last week it will show you exactly who has posted and a little blurb of what they wrote! I hope that helps, it sure helps me!
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:24 pm
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"I did not realize it relists the latest activities to the top of the board. How un-observant of me. I must not have had "my spirit in my shoes." "
Donny,
Don't be so hard on yourself. Chances are your spirit was only a few inches above your shoes, and you just needed a slight adjustment. When I first came to factnet my spirit was somewhere above my kneecaps--perhaps even in the thigh area. I wasn't even aware that there was more than one TLWF board. But I eventually made the transition due to the grace of God, and now I scan each board in order of most recent post.
Mike
mature factnetter
Lael (205.188.117.20)
Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:32 pm
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Anonymous who spelled my name wrong. Ha Ha
by evaluating the information you chose to share, I would say you are one of "us" The 19? of us who lived in the building in 1990 when the McDonalds and Bob directed us (if that's what you want to call it). You know that my sister has a boy, well actually three, and you were around when G&M gave the smak down to their own daughter, and you know about Eunice & Leah. I would have to quess you are a Beatty or Mehaffey. John Mark, is that you preaching from on top of the moutains in Colorado?
Lets go my process of elimination.
1. Milia Perry
2. Jessica Timinski
3. Jessica Lindy
4. Titus Yoder
5. Katie Stewart
6-12 Beatty's
13-15 Mehaffey's
16-19 White's
Help me out here. You know I'm close
Lael
Boot Camp Boy (204.156.7.47)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:27 am
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Lael I am still waiting to hear what happened to Bob. One day he was King of the After School program and then a year later when I dropped in for a visit he was like scum sitting at the back of the church. I think he and Sarah have two kids now, right?
Lael (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 07:35 pm
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Boot camp boy, but really you are not a boy anymore, you are Titus. Am I right?
I don't know what exactly happen to Bob by the other elders from the church. I'm sure the same as Leilani when she left for awhile after running yasp, or the Schermahorn's, or marti and kevin, well just marti. When they decide to lay the smack down on someone, they show no mercy. What about poor MaryAnn Boney too.
What I currently know is that Bob is doing very well. Yes they have two daughters. Bob does travel a ton for his job, but I he still goes to Shiloh.
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:23 pm
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Lael:
"What about poor MaryAnn Boney too."
What about her?
Mike
Josh W. - formerly TGIA (209.78.80.254)
Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:51 am
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What are you guys talking about with regards to the LaFauries? I know them to be very loving.
Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:29 am
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Damn! Another board I haven't been checking at all! What the.....
Boot camp. Haha. The boot camp guys that became the shining beacons that we were all supposed to be so damned impressed by. That's how YASP started, I'm sure.
Stand in line.
Where are we going?
It doesn't matter. Stand in line.
OK
Pull weeds.
Don't sleep.
Eat crap food.
Go see Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
...... 14 years later, I'm still trying to catch up on sleep from that first YASP session.
Thanks, Boot Camp Boy.
CMP
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:44 am
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CMP:
Don't forget to check out the two new discussion boards dealing with Yasp started last week:
'Single File to Nowhere'
'Quit looking at that girl'
I'm going to hold off starting 'Spirit in Your Shoes' since it seems (at least to me) that there are too many boards already.
Mike
Captain Monkey Puzzle (67.160.185.126)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:30 pm
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Yeah Mike, we really should consolidate the boards.... maybe
'I still can't relate to anybody of the opposite sex because they scare me and now I question everything I do because I'm no longer "covered" because I dont have a Revelation so you should keep praying that I will like This Weeks and Crummy Food as much as you do and maybe I'll start checking with my DR before I blow my nose but I lost my Franklin Planner so I can't keep track of all the message boards so this is the one single message board'
What do you think?
CMP
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:18 pm
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CMP,
The title of the consolidated board seems a little long, but that's just my opinion and I haven't really run it by my DR yet, so I can't really say. Once my DR pays his phone bill, I'll be able to reach him easier and get confirmation and get right back to you (provided I've paid my DSL bill).
Anyway, perhaps the acronym: ISCRTAOTOSBTSMANIQEIDBINLCBIDHARSYSKPTIWLTWACFAMAY DAMISCWMDRB etc. would work. It seems a little less cumbersome than your title. I'm not saying I'm right, because this opinion could very well be straight from my adamic nature, and again that's why I must mention that I plan to run it by my DR, as soon as his phone gets reconnected.
But so far I feel real good about my idea.
Mike
analonymous (67.115.8.224)
Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:22 pm
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could we all meet at the single file to nowhere message board? or would we be unable to find each other because we were all nowhere? i'm beginning to lose my sense of comfort and am getting a little scared thinking about that. will some one please come help talk me down out of this?
analponderous?
serving the tool (4.8.230.53)
Sunday, August 08, 2004 - 07:46 pm
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"i'm beginning to lose my sense of comfort and am getting a little scared thinking about that. will some one please come help talk me down out of this?"
The only comfort I can offer you is the This Week: 'Is God my Tool or my Boss?' I know the title might seem redundant (and possibly offensive), but I think it will help you in your present situation. In fact, I know it will help you. Read it.
STT
Whoa Dude (68.221.13.26)
Monday, August 09, 2004 - 12:01 pm
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Want to play 20 questions? Go to Factnet/Families & Relationships/Subtopic "Shiloh Kalona Iowa Cult.
MischaSafdie (149.174.164.83)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:24 am
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Someone wanted to know what JRS views on some political issues were. Back when I was in "The Walk" John very openly expressed his views both publically in church and in private. He very openly suggested how we should and should not vote. He had lots of wisdom on these issues I think, so I will state what I remember:
1. JRS was a big supporter of Ronald Reagan. He liked him alot and referred to him as a Godly President. Yes...he did register to vote and was a registered Republican. Like many Christians, I was very conservative right on issues.
2. JRS was very positive about the Pope we still have sitting in Rome today. While ne never said much about the Catholic church in general, he did say that this Pope we have would open the door for Catholics to be spirit-filled and guided butr after he was gone that the door for the Catholics in this area would slam shut.
3. JRS did not care at all for the Kennedy's. I had heard...after the fact...that he had the Body pray for the deaths of both JFK and Bobby Kennedy. I know this to be true because when I was in the Walk one night in South Gate he spoke about it in referring to the power of creative prophesy and he brought the matter up stating something to the effect that "when we prayed and prophesied in those matters, we all know what happened. He believed that JFK, Bobby Kennedy (the entire Kennedy family) the Rockafellers, Henry Kissinger were all Nephilem. He also mentioned certain celebrities like Tom Jones, Engelbert Humperdink, the lead singer of the doors (who he had personal dealings with and once ministered to I think in South Gate...his girlfriend was a member of the Walk at the time)..
...all as being Nephilem.
4. JRS was very into politics and believed most of our Presidents were members of what I think was the CFR and Trilateral commision...at least one of those groups...but I cannot recall which one. He often spoke though about his belief that one of these groups was centered around a few wealthy business people who were Nephilem and who would gain world control eventually opening the door for the antichrist and then attempt through that person and group to destroy mankind.
5. One interesting bit of information some of you may not know was the JRS was an avid believer in UFOs. In one service in South Gate one night he talked about them and said that they were Nephilem. He said that they were based underground and that there were large bases underground in Brazil. I cannot recall whether he actually saw them or not but it seems like he had some type of first hand or very reliable info on that.
6. Another thing you may not know about JRS that I personally heard him talk about was that he once had some type of friendship relationship with a woman who was a practicing witch. He said that he had tried to minister to her and convert her into being a Christian but that in the end, she rebelled and tried to kill him by using witchcraft and spells against him. He said that before this happened, he had questioned her and learned alot about the occult and witchcraft based on what she had told him. So, he explained that when she tried to use spells against him, he knew how to "fight her" and that in the end, it boomeranged back on her and she was eventually killed by way of some illness. He used to say that in order to fight the occult, you had to understand how it worked.....something I never really totally agreed with and now believe was wrong totally. I think if you know the Lord and walk with Him, invoke His blood and the power in His name...that is all you need. No need to fight black magic with white magic of your own.
Anyway, I hope this answers some questions and also opens the door for some of you to comment and ask more. I am sure others who knew JRS personally and attended some of the services may have heard or may remember some of these things. The things I am writing about, I have personal knowledge of. During the time I was in the Walk, I often talked to JRS in a group and alone...sometimes in private and other times on the telephone. But those things I am writing about were not discussed. The things I have outlined were all very well known by members at the time..at least most members...and JRS spoke openly about them in services at times.
Take care.
Mischa S. Safdie'
Anonymous (67.19.163.20)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 11:51 am
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Mischa: Nice post, but don't you think you are posting a little too much information?
You aren't so clean yourself. You wouldn't want some know-it-all posting your private history regarding Marlene, would you? About the abuse?
Alina Hope (4.242.186.6)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:07 pm
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Mischa, growing up in the walk, I remember having knowlegde of those things. One summer in YASP when the new library opened at Shiloh we were all told to write down random questions we had like "are there UFO's?" or "Where did dinosaurs come from?" Then we researched what JRS said about all of those things.
The only point you made that I didn't know about was the Pope.
Great post! By the way, does anyone know the rules for a tax exempt organization? I was under the impression that as soon as someone (like a pastor) in a tax exempt organization told people how to vote it would have it's exemption revoked.
Mischa, I read your post on the Shiloh board. I will miss your posts there. God bless you!
Anonymous (69.44.61.197)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 05:15 pm
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Alina THE RAPE EXPERT
You seem to be hitting all the boards today. When do you have the time to teach your rape classes?
By using your name, how do the people in your social circle feel about your posts?
Mike (4.8.230.53)
Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 08:37 pm
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And you're following her around, which is quite sick. I would inform your social circle--if you had one.
Mike
MischaSafdie (152.163.253.102)
Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:11 am
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Anon67: What abuse? And by using my ex-wife's name...that is public record...or maybe you know me? Anyway we had a good marriage for the time it lasted (27 years) and fortunately "abuse" was something all to prevalent in the Walk but something that was never a part of our own lives, thankfully. Nice try anyway. You sound like Mel Baily. Are you? If so, you should know...(need I say more?) Strange post. The Lord Jesus knows the answer to that one though so if the shoe fits wear it and if not, disregard it. Anyway, the info I posted about some things regarding JRS were in response to a question asked and they are pretty much common knowledge to anyone who was there back in those days or who knew him.
Hey Mike: That "This Is Not Me" take was "FUNNY"! LOL I think it was referring to that fiasco where someone was using my computer...which was not too funny at the time really...but when I read your posts, it had me cracking up... "Bob S."
Alina: Thanks for the compliments.
Anonymous (66.98.168.100)
Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:07 pm
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MischaSafdie:
I left out "verbal". Anyway, alot of the stuff you posted isn't common knowledge, especially to the Idiot Alina and her comment about taxes.
Also, you know damm well that John didn't say, "Guess what, I prayed for Kennedy's death". If he did talk to you, what were his EXACT
words?
Why would he tell you, you weren't around at the time. Someone told you that he prayed for death. He didn't. I was there at the Tues. morning prayer meeting along with Bro. Wilson.
Josh W. (209.78.80.254)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 02:42 am
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To Chad Molina -
I don't know if you still read the boards, but if you do, I wanted you to know something.
I really appreciate something you once did for me the one visit I had to Shiloh. It was one summer, and you were there at the same time. We (myself, you, and a bunch of others) were out weeding the (god-damned) thorn bushes. Apparently, a bunch of brand new shovels had just been purchased, and a lecture was given out to be careful not to break them, as they were brand new.
SO...what do I do, but of course, break one almost immediately. I felt real poopy, and a couple of guys were sort of laughing and asked "who did it".
Without missing a beat, you looked at them and said "does it matter?"
What you did really made me feel better, like someone really cared. I was 14, and what you did has stayed with me to this day - like no matter what, there are caring people from this church (even though I don't think you go anymore, nor do I).
I've always felt indebted to you for that show of kindness. I didn't realize until recently that the "Chad" writing on the earlier posts was you! I've not seen any comments from you in the last couple of months, but I hope you "check in" from time to time, because I wanted to know how much I appreciated what you did (even though this is somewhat of a public area, hehe).
Even though the Bakersfield AND Fresno churches have both closed down, you may remember me from a snow trip the two churches went on maybe 12-13 years ago (or, maybe you don't). You came over to the apartment I shared with a brother in the church, and we all watched the movie "Dutch" starring Ed Oneal. Do you remember that?
I remember you as always a really cool guy. I once saw you at a feast service in LA, and ran up to you and gave you a big hug - I laugh now because I remember at the time, you looked at me like "who the f*ck are you dude?" Hehe. You couldn't have realized that even then, I remembered what you did from that day at Shiloh.
I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated what you did, and I hope you are well and happy and having a good life. If you ever read this, please feel free to write in, and maybe I can get your email address (or give you mine) and we can catch up.
looking for shovel breaker (4.8.230.53)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:36 am
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This is something that ultimately led to my leaving TLWF in a state of bitterness, which I still attempting to recover from. I purchased some new shovels out of my own savings account, lent it to a Shiloh crew, and the FIRST day one of them was broken to bits by a still unidentified kid whose spirit was 'over there.' I confronted everyone out in the field (even though veins were popping in my neck, I believe I maintained self-control) and yet to this day I have no GD idea who did it. I left the church that night, and immediately upped my alcohol intake to about .25 level per day. I went through 5 years of listening to nothing but Metallica interspersed with a few Megadeth songs in a vain effort to mellow out. Anyway, I decided yesterday that it's time to put the incident behind me once and for all. I'm going to start eating some food along with my alcohol. In other words, I'm taking baby steps toward a new day.
But if I ever catch the dude that broke my shovel, I'm not going to sing 'Love so Sweet' to him.
John Gray
Josh W. (209.78.80.254)
Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:31 pm
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LOL LOL LOL. Too funny Mike.
MischaSafdie (198.81.26.106)
Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 02:46 am
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Hi Anon66: Hi. :-) If you would like, hit me with an email privately so I will know who you are...if we know one another. Anyway, regarding your post...You are correct. JRS never told me he prayed for Kennedy's death and it is true that I would not have been there in 63 when he died. I was just a kid then. To clarify, when I was in The Walk I had always heard rumor of it from others. However, one night during a South Gate church meeting..long after the fact...JRS actually referred to those prayers; one involving JFK and the other his brother Bobby. I cannot remember what prompted it to be brought up from the pulpit but what JRS was referring to was the power of prophecy and touching not God's annointed, I believe. He got into the politics discussions and then said something to the effect that sometimes God requires that we pray against situations and people...and that if they are attached to a Nephilim spirit, then many times God's judgement will take them along with that spirit. He went on to say that we have had to pray for the destruction of the flesh of certain men in high places before and we know what the end result of that was. In response one of the other brothers took the pulpit and referred to the Kennedys and Rockafellers while John stood by and agreed but said nothing more about it. I would also mention to you that during the time I was in The Walk and before JRS departed, I had a very good relationship with him. We spoke many times. However, it is true, as you are suggesting, that some of the information I obtained was secondhand info, albeit from reliable sources who would have no reason or motive to lie and who would have known. As an investigator who often questions and interviews people, in thinking back about alot of that, I would have to say that I feel the sources I spoke with were for the most part very reliable and certainly had nothing but love for JRS. I can see your desire to protect JRS integrity and reputation in some of your other posts and to be honest with you, I am with you in that myself. John was good to me and I do feel he was on to something very special in the Lord at one point. However, I do also feel that for some reason things took a turn the wrong direction right before he passed away...possibly it was medical related as far as how JRS acted and thought then...but I do not know for sure. Today, it appears TLW is still on the wrong track or a far cry from what JRS had once envisioned it to be. Sorry if in my post I said anything that confused you.
To Mike: I wanted to tell you that I never knew Gary was the kind of person who would threaten to hit someone like your wife and do what he did to you and your family. Had he said something like that to me in a service, I might have walked right up onto the platform and decked him in front of everyone...no hesitation...and we would have seen just how much of a "tough guy" he really was. I could have done it and I doubt he would have been able to do too much about it. But that was not my spirit at the time and I did not hear anything like that from him. Someone like that..if he did what you said he did...and I believe you....could never have my respect and now that I know, my views of Mr. Hargrave have changed. Thanks for mentioning it ...and a dose of reality...and I am sorry for you and your wife. That had to be a very terrible and humiliating experience, Mike.
Anon67: I had a question. You mentioned on this board or another that you were part of the Newport Church. I had many friends there..Bob McLain, Blair, I knew John Navelesi...I once seriously dated a wonderful and really beautful girl by the name of Michelle Ziegler. Did you know her? If so, do you know what ever happened to her? I really loved her alot but that is another story...let's just say "Shepharding" intervened and haled the relationship...lol.
To someone who wanted to know if anyone worked at "Impact". Yes, I did for awhile. It was "interesting". The best thing that came out of it was I met this nice girl from the Newport Church and we dated for awhile....however that ended sadly in that we seemed to be doing ok and loved one another but then "the brothers stepped in and berated me for being too in love and wanting to talk to her in my free time."...lol. They put us on a submission trip of not talking to one another at all and only seeing one another at services once a week. She wanted to be obedient and so she submitted. I did not want to submit because I loved her...so I was threatened with the consequences of being rebellious unless I did submit. Anyway, in short, her submission caused me to have to submit and in the end, our relationship kind of faded away into the sunset...lol
To Leal: Are you Ed and Linda White's daughter? It seems I remember you in South Gate as a baby. You used to play with my daughter, "Michelle" alot. The Beattys always babysat for us and so my daughter was practically raised with their kids too during the first 2-3 years of her life.
To Gary's Daughter, "Dawn". I never knew you but your sincere post on either this or one of the other sites was heartfelt. I never knew my biological father either and in the end it was probably best that way. It is sad though to me that a man who could sit there with Marilyn and preach so many messages on "fatherhood"...including several that someone from TLW put on a couple of these boards...that such a person could be such a terrible example of what a father should be to his own child himself. It seems like hypocrisy. Considering the problems he and Marilyn have apprently had with "his new kids by her"...you didn't miss much anyway and are lucky to have moved on. Your mom, "Donna" would not remember me because we just spoke briefly...hi and bye...at times. But it sounds like she did a good job raising you if you are a Christian now as you say...after all of that...and that she too was able to move on with her life. My oh my...time sure goes by fast. I wish you the best.
MSPI007SI@aol.com
Donald Duck (81.118.4.7)
Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:27 pm
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Sharia
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FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Islamic Fundamentalism: Sharia
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Anonymous
Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:22 pm
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SOKOTO, Federation of Nigeria - A Nigerian mother who had been sentenced to die by stoning was freed [this] Monday - but almost immediately afterwards officials revealed another woman has received the same sentence.
The case of 35-year-old Safiya Hussaini Tungar-Tudu, who was condemned to death by a sharia court for adultery, had sparked international outrage.
.......
Fearing international isolation, Nigeria's government ordered states applying the strict Islamic sharia law last week to modify harsh sanctions such as stoning to death for adulterers and the severing of hands for theft.
.........
"The import of the ruling is that it will now dawn on the sharia states that they cannot implement the system in isolation," said Segun Jegede of the Campaign for Democracy and Human Rights, based in the southwestern city of Lagos.
.......
Nigerian Sharia Court Frees Woman in Stoning Case
The Sharia - Saudi Style - under Scrutiny in Nigeria
Sharia: the Politics of Control [Nigeria]
SHARI'AH PENAL CODE LAW ZAMFARA STATE OF NIGERIA (I)
SHARI'AH PENAL CODE LAW ZAMFARA STATE OF NIGERIA (II)
NIGERIA - Time for justice and accountability Amnesty International.
Political map of Federal Nigeria
Sharia States in Federal Nigeria
Anonymous
Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:00 pm
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Sentenced to death by stoning
"Amina Lawal was sentenced to death by stoning by a Regional Court in Katsina State, Nigeria for having a child outside marriage. Her sentence was announced on 23 March 2002.
This will entail burying Amina up to her waist and stoning her until she is dead.
The sentence on Ms Lawal has provoked a world-wide wave of shock and revulsion. There is general disbelief that Nigerian women, living in a democracy, could be sentenced to such a cruel, inhumane and degrading punishment, which runs completely counter to the International Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhumane and Degrading Treatment and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.
It is vital that the Nigerian Federal Government is given support to fulfil its human rights commitments. People from all round the world can play their part in encouraging Nigeria to do the right thing: to end inhumane and cruel sentences in its territory and to ensure human rights for all Nigerians.
You can help make a difference by encouraging the Nigerian government to focus on delivering its pledges to its own people and to the international community by writing to both the Nigerian and you local and national politicians."
http://www.mertonai.org/amina/
online petition at
http://www.mertonai.org/amina/OpenLetter.htm
IslamStinks!
Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:59 pm
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Isam is a false religion leading millions astray. It is the largest cult in the world!
Bigotry Stinks!
Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:33 am
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Which sect of Islam is leading millions astray? You can't judge an entire culture by its extremists and fanatics. That's like denoucing Western culture because a few fanatical Christians have blown up abortion clinics. Get real and stop making outrageous overgeneralizations like that.
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R (216.119.134.145)
09-20-2004, 08:39 PM
Martin Luther nailed this Message to the Church House Doors. His 95 Thesis: * *Project Wittenberg
Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther
on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences
by Dr. Martin Luther, 1517
Martin Luther - Project Wittenberg
Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther
on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences
by Dr. Martin Luther (1517)
Published in:
Works of Martin Luther:
Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds.
(Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915), Vol.1, pp. 29-38
_______________
[10] [20] [30] [40] [50] [60] [70] [80] [90]
Out of love for the truth and the desire to bring it to light, the following propositions will be discussed at Wittenberg, under the presidency of the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and of Sacred Theology, and Lecturer in Ordinary on the same at that place. Wherefore he requests that those who are unable to be present and debate orally with us, may do so by letter.
In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.
2. This word cannot be understood to mean sacramental penance, i.e., confession and satisfaction, which is administered by the priests.
3. Yet it means not inward repentance only; nay, there is no inward repentance which does not outwardly work divers mortifications of the flesh.
4. The penalty [of sin], therefore, continues so long as hatred of self continues; for this is the true inward repentance, and continues until our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.
5. The pope does not intend to remit, and cannot remit any penalties other than those which he has imposed either by his own authority or by that of the Canons.
6. The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring that it has been remitted by God and by assenting to God's remission; though, to be sure, he may grant remission in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in such cases were despised, the guilt would remain entirely unforgiven.
7. God remits guilt to no one whom He does not, at the same time, humble in all things and bring into subjection to His vicar, the priest.
8. The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to them, nothing should be imposed on the dying.
9. Therefore the Holy Spirit in the pope is kind to us, because in his decrees he always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.
10. Ignorant and wicked are the doings of those priests who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penances for purgatory.
11. This changing of the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory is quite evidently one of the tares that were sown while the bishops slept.
12. In former times the canonical penalties were imposed not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.
13. The dying are freed by death from all penalties; they are already dead to canonical rules, and have a right to be released from them.
14. The imperfect health [of soul], that is to say, the imperfect love, of the dying brings with it, of necessity, great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater is the fear.
15. This fear and horror is sufficient of itself alone (to say nothing of other things) to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.
16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ as do despair, almost-despair, and the assurance of safety.
17. With souls in purgatory it seems necessary that horror should grow less and love increase.
18. It seems unproved, either by reason or Scripture, that they are outside the state of merit, that is to say, of increasing love.
19. Again, it seems unproved that they, or at least that all of them, are certain or assured of their own blessedness, though we may be quite certain of it.
20. Therefore by "full remission of all penalties" the pope means not actually "of all," but only of those imposed by himself.
21. Therefore those preachers of indulgences are in error, who say that by the pope's indulgences a man is freed from every penalty, and saved;
22. Whereas he remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to the canons, they would have had to pay in this life.
23. If it is at all possible to grant to any one the remission of all penalties whatsoever, it is certain that this remission can be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to the very fewest.
24. It must needs be, therefore, that the greater part of the people are deceived by that indiscriminate and highsounding promise of release from penalty.
25. The power which the pope has, in a general way, over purgatory, is just like the power which any bishop or curate has, in a special way, within his own diocese or parish.
26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
29. Who knows whether all the souls in purgatory wish to be bought out of it, as in the legend of Sts. Severinus and Paschal.
30. No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission.
31. Rare as is the man that is truly penitent, so rare is also the man who truly buys indulgences, i.e., such men are most rare.
32. They will be condemned eternally, together with their teachers, who believe themselves sure of their salvation because they have letters of pardon.
33. Men must be on their guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to Him;
34. For these "graces of pardon" concern only the penalties of sacramental satisfaction, and these are appointed by man.
35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.
36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
37. Every true Christian, whether living or dead, has part in all the blessings of Christ and the Church; and this is granted him by God, even without letters of pardon.
38. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
39. It is most difficult, even for the very keenest theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the abundance of pardons and [the need of] true contrition.
40. True contrition seeks and loves penalties, but liberal pardons only relax penalties and cause them to be hated, or at least, furnish an occasion [for hating them].
41. Apostolic pardons are to be preached with caution, lest the people may falsely think them preferable to other good works of love.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend the buying of pardons to be compared in any way to works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better work than buying pardons;
44. Because love grows by works of love, and man becomes better; but by pardons man does not grow better, only more free from penalty.
45. 45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a man in need, and passes him by, and gives [his money] for pardons, purchases not the indulgences of the pope, but the indignation of God.
46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need, they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to squander it on pardons.
47. Christians are to be taught that the buying of pardons is a matter of free will, and not of commandment.
48. Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting pardons, needs, and therefore desires, their devout prayer for him more than the money they bring.
49. Christians are to be taught that the pope's pardons are useful, if they do not put their trust in them; but altogether harmful, if through them they lose their fear of God.
50. Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the pardon-preachers, he would rather that St. Peter's church should go to ashes, than that it should be built up with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.
51. Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
52. The assurance of salvation by letters of pardon is vain, even though the commissary, nay, even though the pope himself, were to stake his soul upon it.
53. They are enemies of Christ and of the pope, who bid the Word of God be altogether silent in some Churches, in order that pardons may be preached in others.
54. Injury is done the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or a longer time is spent on pardons than on this Word.
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
57. That they are not temporal treasures is certainly evident, for many of the vendors do not pour out such treasures so easily, but only gather them.
58. Nor are they the merits of Christ and the Saints, for even without the pope, these always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outward man.
59. St. Lawrence said that the treasures of the Church were the Church's poor, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.
60. Without rashness we say that the keys of the Church, given by Christ's merit, are that treasure;
61. For it is clear that for the remission of penalties and of reserved cases, the power of the pope is of itself sufficient.
62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
63. But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last.
64. On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.
65. Therefore the treasures of the Gospel are nets with which they formerly were wont to fish for men of riches.
66. The treasures of the indulgences are nets with which they now fish for the riches of men.
67. The indulgences which the preachers cry as the "greatest graces" are known to be truly such, in so far as they promote gain.
68. Yet they are in truth the very smallest graces compared with the grace of God and the piety of the Cross.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of apostolic pardons, with all reverence.
70. But still more are they bound to strain all their eyes and attend with all their ears, lest these men preach their own dreams instead of the commission of the pope.
71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!
72. But he who guards against the lust and license of the pardon-preachers, let him be blessed!
73. The pope justly thunders against those who, by any art, contrive the injury of the traffic in pardons.
74. But much more does he intend to thunder against those who use the pretext of pardons to contrive the injury of holy love and truth.
75. To think the papal pardons so great that they could absolve a man even if he had committed an impossible sin and violated the Mother of God -- this is madness.
76. We say, on the contrary, that the papal pardons are not able to remove the very least of venial sins, so far as its guilt is concerned.
77. It is said that even St. Peter, if he were now Pope, could not bestow greater graces; this is blasphemy against St. Peter and against the pope.
78. We say, on the contrary, that even the present pope, and any pope at all, has greater graces at his disposal; to wit, the Gospel, powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written in I. Corinthians xii.
79. To say that the cross, emblazoned with the papal arms, which is set up [by the preachers of indulgences], is of equal worth with the Cross of Christ, is blasphemy.
80. The bishops, curates and theologians who allow such talk to be spread among the people, will have an account to render.
81. This unbridled preaching of pardons makes it no easy matter, even for learned men, to rescue the reverence due to the pope from slander, or even from the shrewd questionings of the laity.
82. To wit: -- "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."
83. Again: -- "Why are mortuary and anniversary masses for the dead continued, and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded on their behalf, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?"
84. Again: -- "What is this new piety of God and the pope, that for money they allow a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God, and do not rather, because of that pious and beloved soul's own need, free it for pure love's sake?"
85. Again: -- "Why are the penitential canons long since in actual fact and through disuse abrogated and dead, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences, as though they were still alive and in force?"
86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?"
87. Again: -- "What is it that the pope remits, and what participation does he grant to those who, by perfect contrition, have a right to full remission and participation?"
88. Again: -- "What greater blessing could come to the Church than if the pope were to do a hundred times a day what he now does once, and bestow on every believer these remissions and participations?"
89. "Since the pope, by his pardons, seeks the salvation of souls rather than money, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons granted heretofore, since these have equal efficacy?"
90. To repress these arguments and scruples of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the Church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies, and to make Christians unhappy.
91. If, therefore, pardons were preached according to the spirit and mind of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved; nay, they would not exist.
92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace!
93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!
94. Christians are to be exhorted that they be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, deaths, and hell;
95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven rather through many tribulations, than through the assurance of peace.
This text was converted to ASCII text for Project Wittenberg by Allen Mulvey, and is in the public domain. You may freely distribute, copy or print this text. Please direct any comments or suggestions to:
Rev. Robert E. Smith
Walther Library
Concordia Theological Seminary.
E-mail: smithre@mail.ctsfw.edu
Surface Mail: 6600 N. Clinton St., Ft. Wayne, IN 46825 USA
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To: Martin Luther - Project Wittenberg
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