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infoman (infoman)
03-16-2005, 02:24 AM
THE $AINTHOOD OF MOTHER TERESA
For the last years thousands upon thousands of Roman Catholic have pressured and asked Pope John Paul 11 to canonize Mother Teresa.

The Roman Catholic Church is doing all she can to accelerate the church procedure, for the sooner Teresa is declared a “saint”, the sooner the church will sell statues, images, relics and all sorts of stuff representing Mother Teresa.

And it seem that their efforts will be successful.

But let us look at all the facts and see if Mother Teresa should be or not a “saint”, let us examine her sainthood.

We all know that Teresa was a well-acclaimed international celebrity, who had strong ties to the who’s who of this world.. She was a Roman Catholic nun who rescued the poor from the streets in Calcutta .

I know that it could be something morally impressive in a life dedicated to charity, but Teresa has also been accused in the past of running her congregation with à theory of poverty, submission and power.

Many former workers and volunteers have denounced the shortcomings and weaknesses of her pseudo-sainthood.

Her Moral Integrity
The testimony of Susan Shields who worked nine and a half years for Teresa’s order is striking. It is a shame that her manuscript had failed to find a publisher

At the time Christopher Hitchen’s book The Missionary Position was released.

Susan writes: “In San Francisco, the sisters were given use of a three-story convent…The sisters…pushed thick mattresses out the windows and removed all the sofas, chairs and curtains…The beautifully constructed house was made to conform to à way of life intended to help the sisters become holy…The heat remained off

All winter in this exceedingly damped house. Several Sisters got TB during the time I lived there”.

Her Financial Integrity;

In one occasion, Mother Teresa accepted $10,000 from John Roger-leader of the MSIA cult (pronounced Messiah) . This man has repeatedly claimed to have à spiritual consciousness that is superior to that of Jesus Christ. Roger’s cult has repeatedly been exposed as corrupt and fanatical .

Christopher Hitchens who has written columns for Vanity Fair and The Nation questions Teresa’s involvement with other personalities.

“ Then there was her business dealings. How did she come to hear of Charles Keating, chairman of the Lincoln savings and Loan Company, now in jail for the biggest fraud in American history? In return for half a million dollars and the use of Keating private jet, Mother Teresa showered blessings on this gentleman and gave him a personal crucifix which he used as they say to enhance his credibility.”

The judge who presided the trial was the later notorious Judge Lance Ito (remember the O.J. Simpson trial) During the course of the trial, Teresa wrote to the court seeking clemency for Keating. In his capacity as Deputy District attorney for Los Angeles, Mr. Paul Turley wrote back to Mother. Here is à brief excerpt of his letter..

“Mr. Keating was convicted of defrauding 17 individuals of more then $900,000. These 17 persons were representative of 17,000 individuals from whom Mr. Keating stole $252,000,000. You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart—as he sentenced Charles Keating—and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you…I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners.”

Three years later, Mr. Turley had yet to receive a reply from Teresa.

You may also wonder how Teresa was distributing the immense quantities of money that were donated to her order of nuns.. Susan Shields writes:

“The order’s bank account was already the size of a great fortune and increased with every postal service delivery. Around $50 million had collected in one checking account in the Bronx. The donations were deposited in the bank but had no effect on our ascetic lives or on the lives of the poor we were trying to help. Our constitution forbade us to beg for more than we needed but the money in the bank was treated as if did not exist.”

Her Religious integrity;

Mother Teresa and her co-workers never tried to convert to Jesus Christ the dying folks for whom they cared, on the contrary Teresa declared, “If I’m coming face to face with God, we accept him in our lives, then we become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are.. What God is in your mind, you must accept.”

I do not know if Teresa changed during the last years of her life but here is an interesting account of what happened to her.

THE archbishop of Calcutta, Henry D’Souza declared that mother Teresa had an exorcism performed on her in the latter days of her life.

The exorcism took place in a hospital where she had gone for cardiac problems. The Archbishop who himself had been hospitalized at the same facility and shared the same doctor as Teresa noticed that while Teresa was calm during the day, at night she appeared extremely agitated, pulling off wires and other monitoring equipment stuck to her body.

Because he believed Teresa might be under the attack of the veil one, he offered to arrange an exorcism for the elderly nun. She agreed.

So he called a priest, a holy man in Calcutta and told him “Please say the prayer of exorcism over Mother Teresa.” And he got a shock and said “shall I pray and should I drive out the devil if it’s in there?” I said “Yes you do.” But he says “What will the devil do to me?”

I said to him “You command the devil to go if he’s there, in the name of the church as archbishop I command you to go and do it.”

After the exorcism was over, the archbishop said, “Mother Teresa slept like a baby.”

D”Souza emphasized that other great religious leaders have faced similar challenges, including Jesus Christ.

Sister Nirmala who now heads the order Missionaries of Charity added that Mother Teresa is with God, now in His presence she has more power with God there she is very very powerful

CNN.Com,/World September 05,2001 by Sandra Bindra, CNN New Delhi Bureau.

In the movie The Exorcist, of which some psychologists have said that it is doubtful if anyone could see the movie without suffering mental and emotional damage, the Roman Catholic priest is a key figure, and has a major role in the movie, and in the Roman Catholic Church an exorcist is a member of the second highest of the 4 former minor orders.

Although exorcism is not taught in the Bible, the word exorcist is only found once in the Bible. It is used to describe the work of certain vagabond Jews, religious heretics who got into trouble by saying , “we adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. And the evil spirit answered and said ; “Jesus I know and Paul I know, but you who are you,?

So is Teresa a saint an unscrupulous ambitious person, a profiteer, or is she the victim of the Roman Catholic church propaganda and of its greedy $pirit?

egk (egk)
03-16-2005, 03:48 AM
While I was an Evangelical, I saw Mother Teresa on TV being interviewed. I was impressed at the beginning when she was quoted as saying she was simply a "pencil in the hand of God." At the end of the interview she was asked "If you had one wish, what would it be." Mother Teresa replied, "I wish that all would come to know Jesus."

I also saw another documentary about her. When women came to join her order, she told them, "If you come here to be social workers, then leave; but if you come to serve Jesus in the poor, then stay."

As for her not trying to convert anyone, it should be noted that about half of the persons who died in her houses of dieing first make a profession of faith in Jesus and are baptized. Those are pretty good results.

As for her dealing with questionable characters, her Lord was also questioned about the same thing.

One other item, I met a devout Methodist born and raised in India. I asked him once what he thought of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. His reply was "We only say we are Christians, she IS a Christian."

EGK

franklin (franklin)
03-16-2005, 05:35 AM
My impressions of her are overall good ones. I remember hearing a catholic priest telling a story about his visit to her in India.

"She asked me if I wanted to see Jesus? So she took down a hallway to a dark room. Inside was an old Indian man, in rags, deathly sick. She pointed to him and told me 'See, here is Jesus.' Meaning what we do for the least of us, we do for Christ."

I believe she was a positive, inspirational force in the world. I have general respect and admiration for a life worth living like hers.

As to sainthood, I am a protestant, so the terms "saint" or "sainthood" don't mean much to me. I believe the first 11 plus Paul were Saints. But after them I don't think the term "Saint" is unnecessary.

There are many Christian heroes, (some protestant) to admire and be inspired by (including Theresa), throughout the ages. But sainthood I think is unnecessary. To me it denotes perfection. A statue. All human statues have feet of clay.

Theresa was someone that could reach out to all other Christian sects and make us feel like we are one big Christian family. Which we are.

She reminds me of other common interests we have. I admire the catholic church's pro-life stance on abortion, euthenasia for instance, morality in general.

So you see I can be both critical and appreciative of the catholic church. Theresa helped me to get there.

yaakov (yaakov)
03-16-2005, 06:18 PM
An eye-opening post, Infoman. I too, have only heard good things about her. It looks like she made her share of mistakes also. Perhaps, the church is correct to have their contemplative deliberate process to transform a person into a saint.

alphaomega (alphaomega)
05-17-2005, 01:46 PM
Is anybody going to get into the "kingdom of heaven" on account of thier "good works" and "charity" alone?? I should think not.

Sure she was full of charitable good works, no denying that, but did she present the clear gospel of salvation to the dying beggars she ministered to?
the following is a quote about her...
"apparently mother teresa thinks all religions are equal true; nothing is wrong with any of them. Mother teresa, who is praised and highly honored by christian leaders, seems to agree. She is to be commended for her selfless service to the suffering street people of Calcutta; however, she has denied her patients the opportunity to hear the clear gospel. There is something more important than "dying with dignity". She has said... {mother teresas own words following}

Oh, I hope I am converting. I don't mean what you think... If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. WE BECOME A BETTER HINDU, A BETTER MUSLIM, A BETTER CATHOLIC, A BETTER WHATEVER WE ARE... What approach would I use? For me, naturally, it would be a Catholic one, for you it may be Hinud, for someone else, Buddhist, according to one's conscience.What God is in your mind you must accept. {end of quote} quote was taken from: "Mother Teresa: Her People and Her Work by Desmond Doig, pg. 156, published by Harper and Row 1976.

She by her own words and admission proves she is a major ecumenicalist. John Paul 2 loved her for this no doubt, he was the greatest ecumenicalist ever in the history of the entire papacy.

mybuddyrobin (mybuddyrobin)
08-21-2005, 08:39 AM
Why do people feel they need to judge? She did wonderful and amazing things. Do you walk around bad mouthing your grandfather because he didn't live up to your religious beliefs? No, you mention the good things he did...remember him fondly and move on. If you have a legitimate concern about sainthood or not. Bring it up to the commission investigating her. Otherwise, she did more good than any of us here on this board will ever do. Interesting how people sit around and judge but don't get off thier own BS to make a difference in the world...just knock the ones who do!

measinner
03-17-2006, 06:03 AM
It should not surprise us that someone whom the media has made a hero and a saint might not actually be either, or that such a one might say things that, when aired on TV, sound wonderful to Catholics and Evangelicals alike, while saying something entirely to her employees and personal staff. Nor is it surprising that she might say one thing to a priest she does not know, and another thing to a visiting priest or a superior. One must consider both what may have been done for publicity sake, and what was done in the dark.

<font color="119911">As for her dealing with questionable characters, her Lord was also questioned about the same thing.</font>

I assume that's a question. And, no, Jesus was not accused of "dealing" with sinners; he was accused of eating with them. We have no record of Jesus being financed by thieves or false prophets, nor of his interceding on the part of unrepentant sinners when they were being judged by lawful authorities.

measinner
03-17-2006, 06:25 AM
<font color="119911">My impressions of her are overall good ones.</font>

I think most peoples impressions of her are; however, most people's impressions of her are shaped by the media and the Catholic denomination's and her own apparent attempts at PR.

<font color="119911">As for her not trying to convert anyone, it should be noted that about half of the persons who died in her houses of dieing first make a profession of faith in Jesus and are baptized. Those are pretty good results.</font>

Perhaps, but evidently not the results of her own efforts. But I'm curious, where did you get your information? From the media, which made her a hero and a saint? Or from the Roman Catholic denomination which saw her as an excellent PR tool, and which hopes to make millions from dashboard statues and other worthless trinkets depicting her?

measinner
03-17-2006, 06:34 AM
<font color="119911">One other item, I met a devout Methodist born and raised in India. I asked him once what he thought of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. His reply was "We only say we are Christians, she IS a Christian."</font>

How devout a Methodist could he have been if he said that? Obviously, he was not towing the party line, because historic Methodism does not teach this. If you listen to the preaching of Wesley (the founder of Methodism) and his successors, faith in Christ alone (not Christ plus roseries, not baptisms, not the Eucarist, not prayers to saints).

measinner
03-17-2006, 06:47 AM
<font color="119911">"She asked me if I wanted to see Jesus? So she took down a hallway to a dark room. Inside was an old Indian man, in rags, deathly sick. She pointed to him and told me 'See, here is Jesus.' Meaning what we do for the least of us, we do for Christ."</font>

This is indeed a telling story. First, it shows either Teresa's ignorance and/or that of the priest. First, Jesus did not say "what we do for the least of us, we do for" Him; but, rather, what one does for "the least of <u>these my brethren</u> you do for Me." Second, notice what had been done for the man? No fresh clothing; he was in rags. No light in the room? Darkness? And the reports of Teresa's death houses are just that; patients reposed in filth and received grossly substandard treatment, such as is not found in Protestant and other missionary hospitals.

egk
03-17-2006, 06:56 AM
Measinner,


<font color="119911">As for her not trying to convert anyone, it should be noted that about half of the persons who died in her houses of dieing first make a profession of faith in Jesus and are baptized. Those are pretty good results. </font><font color="0000ff">

Perhaps, but evidently not the results of her own efforts. But I'm curious, where did you get your information? From the media, which made her a hero and a saint? Or from the Roman Catholic denomination which saw her as an excellent PR tool, and which hopes to make millions from dashboard statues and other worthless trinkets depicting her?</font>

I believe that I got it from reading one of her books or an interview with her or one of her sisters. You are correct, this was not the result of her effort! She was simply obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and God did the rest.


<font color="119911">One other item, I met a devout Methodist born and raised in India. I asked him once what he thought of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. His reply was "We only say we are Christians, she IS a Christian." </font><font color="0000ff">

How devout a Methodist could he have been if he said that? Obviously, he was not towing the party line, because historic Methodism does not teach this. If you listen to the preaching of Wesley (the founder of Methodism) and his successors, faith in Christ alone (not Christ plus roseries, not baptisms, not the Eucarist, not prayers to saints).
</font>

Actualy, he was very much in the line of Wesley who expected Christians to live holy lives that manifested the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Please read more of Wesley!

The RCC teaches that persons are saved by grace alone. The sacraments and devotions are simply means of grace.

EGK

measinner
03-17-2006, 07:04 AM
<font color="119911">Why do people feel they need to judge?</font>

I think we're discussing the Roman Catholic denomination's apparent need to judge Teresa, whether or not she should be canonized as a saint. Why not make everyone a canonized saint? Is it not judging to say that some are not worthy of this honor?

<font color="119911">She did wonderful and amazing things.</font>

So those who had a profit motive have told us.

<font color="119911">Do you walk around bad mouthing your grandfather because he didn't live up to your religious beliefs?</font>

No; and I don't try to make him out to be more than he is, either, much less attempt to canonize him before the world as something he was not.

<font color="119911">If you have a legitimate concern about sainthood or not. Bring it up to the commission investigating her.</font>

History has demonstrated that little that is right happens among those who have power unless it is discussed in the open.

<font color="119911">Otherwise, she did more good than any of us here on this board will ever do.</font>

That's just plain asinine.

<font color="119911">Interesting how people sit around and judge but don't get off thier own BS to make a difference in the world...just knock the ones who do</font>

I have to assume that this bit of judgmentalness toward those who have the temerity to disagree with you about Teresa is the evidence of it's own assertion.

measinner
03-17-2006, 07:10 AM
<font color="119911">You are correct, this was not the result of her effort! She was simply obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and God did the rest.</font>

This is laughable! The apostle Paul had no problem acknowledging that men were saved as a result of his efforts. And indeed, they were. Teresa clearly had no interest in promoting the cause of Christ; we have her own words on that. So if men were saved in her death houses, it was because someone else was ministering Christ to them!

measinner
03-17-2006, 07:21 AM
<font color="119911">Actualy, he was very much in the line of Wesley who expected Christians to live holy lives that manifested the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Please read more of Wesley!</font>

Actually, this is far from being in the line of Wesley. Wesley taught that rosaries, praying to saints, veneration of Mary, kissing the pope's ring, etc., was idolatry, and therefore contrary to holiness. Please read more of Wesley yourself!

<font color="119911">The RCC teaches that persons are saved by grace alone. The sacraments and devotions are simply means of grace.</font>

Yes, well, the Roman Catholic denomination defines grace differently than Methodism does; therefore we're not talking about the same thing. Moreover, in bringing up grace, you are diverting from my assertion that Methodism teaches salvation by faith in Christ alone (not Christ plus baptism, plus rosaries, etc.).

egk
03-17-2006, 08:16 AM
Measinner.

<font color="119911">Actualy, he was very much in the line of Wesley who expected Christians to live holy lives that manifested the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Please read more of Wesley!</font><font color="0000ff">

Actually, this is far from being in the line of Wesley. Wesley taught that rosaries, praying to saints, veneration of Mary, kissing the pope's ring, etc., was idolatry, and therefore contrary to holiness. Please read more of Wesley yourself!
</font>

The Methodist in questions was not commenting on her devotions. He was commenting on her love and devotion to the poor.

<font color="0000ff">Yes, well, the Roman Catholic denomination defines grace differently than Methodism does; therefore we're not talking about the same thing. Moreover, in bringing up grace, you are diverting from my assertion that Methodism teaches salvation by faith in Christ alone (not Christ plus baptism, plus rosaries, etc.).</font>

The RCC teaches that grace is the unmerited favor of God. I thought this is what Wesley thought. It is what the Methodist Churches I belonged to taught.

According to the RCC any good works that we do are the result of God's grace, hence are simply the fruit of God's grace.


The RCC teaches we are saved by faith in Christ. The only place "by faith alone" appears in the NT in Greek is in the book of James, where the answer is clearly, no, we are not saved by faith alone. Luther added the word "alone" into the book of Romans.

EGK

measinner
03-17-2006, 03:52 PM
<font color="119911">The Methodist in questions was not commenting on her devotions. He was commenting on her love and devotion to the poor.</font>

Well, that hardly makes him a credible witness to the notion that <font color="119911">"We only say we are Christians, she IS a Christian."</font> Did the Methodist in question ever meet Teresa? Did he ever see the hospital conditions in which her patients were convalesced? Did he ever see what other hospitals look like, to know what quality, loving care actually looks like?

<font color="119911">The RCC teaches that grace is the unmerited favor of God. I thought this is what Wesley thought. It is what the Methodist Churches I belonged to taught.</font>

Although, in reality, Wesley's doctrine of salvation is not far removed from that taught by Roman Catholicism, I doubt that he would see the similarities. Moreover, had those similarities ever been pointed out to him, he would have back-peddled on his own doctrine in order to deny the Catholic doctrine. In any event, your remarks, once again, are an evasion of what I said. Wesley indeed did believe that grace is the unmerited favor of God, and while the Roman Catholic denomination says it believes this, yet it teaches that there are means of grace that the sinner may lay hold of that, in essence, merit or guarantee the favor of God. Wesley taught that salvation was by faith, which is not a work, but that which happens to the believer when his repugnancy or disbelief in something is overcome by another.

<font color="119911">According to the RCC any good works that we do are the result of God's grace, hence are simply the fruit of God's grace.</font>

If the works are merely the result of God's grace, then why did Christ feel it was necessary for the apostles to teach His disciples all that He had commanded of them? Why did the apostles feel the need to teach Christians obedience to Christ if such is the result of God's grace?

Your understanding of James, in my opinion, is flawed. James speaks of two kinds of justification; one (with regard to sin) that is by faith alone, the other, with respect to men, that is by works. So Abraham was justified by faith many, many years before he was justified by works.

Paul tells us, in Romans 4:5, that the many who does not work, but believes, is accounted as righteous. That sounds a lot like "by faith alone" to me. He tells us in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. Again, that sounds a lot like faith alone to me. Christ Himself taught the same thing (John 5:24; 11:25-26; et al.).

(Message edited by measinner on March 17, 2006)

egk
03-17-2006, 06:52 PM
measinner,

There is much to comment about, and not the time to do it. Let this suffice.

<font color="0000ff">If the works are merely the result of God's grace, then why did Christ feel it was necessary for the apostles to teach His disciples all that He had commanded of them? Why did the apostles feel the need to teach Christians obedience to Christ if such is the result of God's grace?</font>

I don't understand what you mean. We don't need God's grace to obey him? According to RCC teaching our good works are the result of God's prompting and grace.

<font color="0000ff">Paul tells us, in Romans 4:5, that the many who does not work, but believes, is accounted as righteous. That sounds a lot like "by faith alone" to me. He tells us in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. Again, that sounds a lot like faith alone to me. Christ Himself taught the same thing (John 5:24; 11:25-26; et al.). </font>

Actually, this sounds like "by faith" to me. In your quoting Ephesians, you stopped a verse too soon. Eph 2:10 "We are truly his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to lead the life of good deeds which God prepared for us in advanced."

When I was an Evangelical, I was taught that we were saved by faith alone. Yet, I was troubled by all the verses that didn't support this.

Mark 16:16 "The man who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved."

Matt 6:14 "If you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive you."

Matt 7:21 "None of those who cry out 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven."

The parabole of the sheep and goats.

These verses among other troubled me. The RCC teach of salvation by faith reconciles these verses with those quoted you quoted.

Salvation is the result of grace alone. By God's grace, our nature is renewed. We become new creatures in Christ. As we grow into his image, we become more like him. By God's grace we are able to forgive, by God's grace we are baptized, by God's grace we can feed Jesus when he comes to us in the least of his brethren.

continued

egk
03-17-2006, 07:03 PM
Matt 6:1-18 were some keys. We are told that if we give alms, fast, and pray properly, God will reward us. How does God reward us? Does he give us bigger crowns in heaven? What I can to believe and what the RCC teaches is that the Lord rewards us by changing us so that we can be more open to His grace. Yet any fasting, prayers, and alms giving we do to open ourselves to God's grace is a result of God's grace so we cannot boast, it is God who gets all the credit, even though I had to co-orperate with God's grace.

Does this make sense to you?