The Catholic Church is NOT the Whore of Revelations

[pro610 (pro610)]

Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words literally understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation (not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both factually and from the only words of Scripture which tell us of the actual doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the apostle John in his letters.

There would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal. Lets look first at literal interpretation.

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.

So, of what was St. John speaking when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos around 96 AD? Obviously of the pagan imperial system situated on the Seven Hills, especially the Capitoline (the religious and political center) and the Palatine (the imperial palace). This pagan power persecuted the Church of Rome in Nero's day (64-67 AD), and in the mid-90s under Domitian was persecuting Christians throughout the Roman world. Domitian was considered by the people a re-incarnation of the evil, but well-liked, Nero (the head that lives again). While the antichrist Nero persecuted only the Christians of Rome, Domitian extended that persecution throughout the empire. Both are thus types of the final persecutor, the Antichrist.

Why the cryptic name Babylon? First, the historical Babylon was the pagan power which persecuted the People of God, the Jews, between 610 and 538 BC, destroying the Temple and dispersing the people. The Romans inherited that mantle of infamy when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and, more importantly, persecuted the new People of God, the Church. Thus, St. Peter, writing from Rome refers to as "Babylon" (1 Pt. 5:13) - a name any Jew or Christian familiar with the Old Testament would know.

How does this relate to the Antichrist? The future Antichrist will be a world-wide power, essentially pagan, which will persecute the Catholic Church (and orthodox Christians in general) everywhere, as the Babylonians persecuted the Jews and 1st century Rome the Church. These are biblical types! The Babylon of John's day, Rome, stands for the kingdom of the future Antichrist and is no more likely to be situated in Italy than Rome needed to be situated in Babylonia (modern Iraq). John was informing his readers of these prophetic types by drawing their attention to the contemporary fulfillment they found in pagan Rome. The Antichrist will come out of the Christian world (Greco-Roman civilization) to be sure (1 John 2:19), but America is as much an inheritor of that civilization as Europe and just as likely to be the source of the Antichrist.

Finally, after distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist. The Catholic faith being a religion you would think they would see what it teaches on the only criteria the Bible actually gives about the Antichrist. In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often at the cost of martyrdom. The present pope, John Paul II, has written three great encyclical (circular) letters on the Trinity, one for each Divine Person, and he has without a doubt preached Jesus Christ to more people than any other person in human history. The Catholic Church does not have the spirit of the Antichrist but of God, since no one without the Spirit can say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor. 12:3), something the Church and Catholics always have done and continue to do!

[leftin1991]

You need to read the book, "A Woman Rides the Beast," by Dave Hunt. It is very eye-opening.

[pro610]

I,ll save everyone the trouble from reading from the Heretic Dave Hunt.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

Hunting the Whore of Babylon
Part#1

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.


#1: Seven Hills



Hunt argues that the Whore "is a city built on seven hills," which he identifies as the seven hills of ancient Rome. This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

[pro610]

Part#2
Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking about—pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well, or better, than Rome during the Christian centuries.

Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican City—the city where the Catholic Church is headquartered—and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.


#2: "Babylon"—What’s in a Name?



Hunt notes that the Whore will be a city "known as Babylon." This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is "Babylon the Great."

The phrase "Babylon the great" (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as "the great city" seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other than these, there is only one reference to "the great city." That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God’s two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified."

"The great city" is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (cf. Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the "the great city" of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was "where [the] Lord was crucified."

Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one "great city" ("the great city"), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven texts—Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

[pro610]

Part#3
This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation. On the other hand, early Church Fathers often referred to Rome as "Babylon," but every references was to pagan Rome, which martyred Christians.


#3: Commits Fornication



Hunt tells us, "The woman is called a ‘whore’ (verse 1), with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome."

Here Hunt admits that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with "the kings of the earth" (those nations it conquered).

To identify the Whore as Vatican City, Hunt interprets the fornication as alleged "unholy alliances" forged between Vatican City and other nations, but he fails to cite any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are "unholy."

He also confuses Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he neglects the fact that pagan Rome had "unholy alliances" with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).

[pro610]

Part#4
#4: Clothed in Purple and Red



Hunt states, "She [the Whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy." He then cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments.

Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colors—purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, he is suddenly literal in his interpretation. He understood well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now he wants to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy.

Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)—even the pope does so.

The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This is a problem for Hunt for three reasons: (a) we have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally; (b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and (c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalem—a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25–26).

Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

It is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because they have been liturgical colors of the true religion since ancient Israel.

Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that the priests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4–8, 15, 33, 39:1–8, 24, 29).


#5: Possesses Great Wealth



Hunt states, "[The Whore’s] incredible wealth next caught John’s eye. She was ‘decked with gold and precious stones and pearls . . . ’ [Rev. 17:4]." The problem is that, regardless of what it had in the past, the modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago. Furthermore, wealth was much more in character with pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, both key economic centers.

[pro610]

Part#5
#6: A Golden Cup



Hunt states that the Whore "has ‘a golden cup [chalice] in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.’" This is another reference to Revelation 17:4. Then he states that the "Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world."

To make the Whore’s gold cup suggestive of the Eucharistic chalice, Hunt inserts the word "chalice" in square brackets, though the Greek word here is the ordinary word for cup (potarion), which appears thirty-three times in the New Testament and is always translated "cup."

He ignores the fact that the Catholic chalice is used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper—a ritual commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19–20; 1 Cor. 11:24–25); he ignores the fact that the majority of Eucharistic chalices Catholics use are not made out of gold, but other materials, such as brass, silver, glass, and even earthenware; he ignores the fact that gold liturgical vessels and utensils have been part of the true religion ever since ancient Israel—again at the command of God (Ex. 25:38–40, 37:23–24; Num. 31:50–51; 2 Chr. 24:14); and he again uses a literal interpretation, according to which the Whore’s cup is not a single symbol applying to the city of Rome, but a collection of many literal cups used in cities throughout the world. But Revelation tells us that it’s the cup of God’s wrath that is given to the Whore (Rev. 14:10; cf. Rev. 18:6). This has nothing to do with Eucharistic chalices.


#7: The Mother of Harlots



Now for Hunt’s most hilarious argument: "John’s attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman’s forehead: ‘THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH’ (verse 5, [Hunt’s emphasis]). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy," which has "made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit."

Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a discipline—a discipline in the Latin Rite of the Church—and even this rite has not always been mandatory. This discipline can scarcely be unbiblical, since Hunt himself says, "The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ."

Hunt has again lurched to an absurdly literal interpretation. He should interpret the harlotry of the Whore’s daughters as the same as their mother’s, which is why she is called their mother in the first place. This would make it spiritual or political fornication or the persecution of Christian martyrs (cf. 17:2, 6, 18:6). Instead, Hunt gives the interpretation of the daughters as literal, earthly prostitutes committing literal, earthly fornication.

[pro610]

Part#6
If Hunt did not have a fixation on the King James Version, he would notice another point that identifies the daughters’ harlotries with that of their mother: The same Greek word (porna) is used for both mother and daughters. The King James Version translates this word as "whore" whenever it refers to the mother, but as "harlot" when it refers to the daughters. Modern translations render it consistently. John sees the "great harlot" (17:1, 15, 16, 19:2) who is "the mother of harlots" (17:5). The harlotries of the daughters must be the same as the mother’s, which Hunt admits is not literal sex!


#8: Sheds the Blood of Saints



Hunt states, "John next notices that the woman is drunk—not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6]." He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust!

This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations. The Church emphatically does not do so. It has condemned forced conversions as early as the third century (before then they were scarcely even possible), and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106–7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.


#9: Reigns over Kings



For his last argument, Hunt states, "Finally, the angel reveals that the woman ‘is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth’ (verse 18). Is there such a city? Yes, and again only one: Vatican City."

This is a joke. Vatican City has no power over other nations; it certainly does not reign over them. In fact, the Vatican’s very existence has been threatened in the past two centuries by Italian nationalism.

Hunt appeals to power the popes once had over Christian political rulers (neglecting the fact that this was always a limited authority, by the popes’ own admission), but at that time there was no Vatican City. The Vatican only became a separate city in 1929, when the Holy See and Italy signed the Lateran Treaty.

Hunt seems to understand this passage to be talking about Vatican City, since the modern city of Rome is only a very minor political force. If the reign is a literal, political one, then pagan Rome fulfills the requirement far better than Christian Rome ever did

[easeltine]

Hi,

Bob, my opinion is as follows:

The Harlot Church is currently being formed and the Liberal Protestant denominations that I have been talking will be part of her. This false church will be composed of all religions, part of the "new age" concept that the Vatican has written about. The Roman Catholic Church will eventually be part of this church. This is due to the Liberal Cardinals that Pope John Paul II warned both Catholic and Protestants about.

This will not happen with Pope Benedict as Pope.
This man sticks with the Word of God, and will not bend Scriptures to become part of this eccumenical movement that I am talking about.

We need to be reading our Bibles, praying, and be sober not to be drawn into this false religious mess from Satan. If this time comes we must be ready.

Erich

[leftin1991]

Thank you for your insights, Easeltine. Thank you for contributing to this thread. I agree with your comments!

[shammah]

Erich,

>>We need to be reading our Bibles, praying, and be sober not to be drawn into this false religious mess from Satan. If this time comes we must be ready.<<

The time has already come. I hope you were paying attention.

Jesus once prayed that we would be completely one so that the world would know that the Father sent him (Jn 17:23). Christians are so far from completely one that you could pick almost any religion or organization and they would be more unified than Christians.

Exactly how much worse do you expect it to get? Why would it matter if it got worse, since the one thing Jesus himself offered as proof of being sent by the Father is utterly destroyed, gone, and seemingly unrecoverable?

Remember, Revelation does not just talk about a harlot, but it talks about her daughters. The Protestant church, with its completely unscriptural and unhistorical faith only doctrine, is nothing but the wayward daughter of the Roman Catholic Church, still believing that the church is about buildings and meetings, rather than living as the household of God, exhorting one another daily, and sharing all things.

It's too late to get ready. It's already come. Huge masses of people have heard the call of God that says "come out of her, my people" and they have been coming out of her for the last 25 years. You can read about it in George Barna's book, the Revolution.

The question is, will those people who have come "out" find their way "in" to the fellowship of the saints. Will they gather; will they become the household of God. If you ever want some serious and unexplainable persecution, try gathering with saints, interacting (not just holding meetings) on a daily basis and becoming truly brothers, sharing all things and loving one another with the love of Christ. The effect is pretty amazing.

[shammah]

Erich,

If you want to hear something real interesting, catch this.

In Theophilus letter "to Autolycus," which the introduction says was written in AD 168, he dates the age of the world using the Septuagint, the standard translation of the early church. It's dates are a little different than our Masoretic text. For example, it has Seth born when Adam is 230 rather than 130.

The result is that he gives an age for mankind of 5,698 years (book III, ch. 28). Let me tell you what's so interesting about this.

The early church believed that the "one restraining" the antichrist in 2 Thess 2 was the Roman empire. They believed that there were four major kingdoms represented by the beasts in Daniel, as most Christians still believe today. But they also believed that these were the only four. After they fell, the antichrist would come. So the early church prayed for Rome, because when Rome's lawful order fell, then the reign of the lawless one would come.

Interestingly enough, they believed that this would probably happen at the 6,000 year mark of history.

Look at the dates above. I didn't make them up. The date for the writing can be found at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.iv.i.html. You can download the text at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.html by clicking the "txt" link. You can then search for 5698 in the text, and you'll find the reference.

Now do the math. 5698 is 302 less than 6000 years. Add 302 to the date of the writing, AD 168, and you get AD 470. What happened in AD 470.

Well, nothing, really, but in that very decade, AD 476, is the fall of Rome.

That's rather an amazing coincidence, don't you think? Especially when the Roman empire was replaced by a papal rule that most certainly did declare itself to have the authority of God and the right to change times and laws. Three tribes, the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and Huns, did the conquering, and they did turn their authority over to a little horn that ended up boasting great things.

Now I don't know how much more accurately you want a prophecy to be fulfilled, but this seems awful hard to ignore, don't you think? Especially when the rule of this little horn is known to the whole world as "The Dark Ages."

I can't really explain the 1530 years that have passed since then, and I don't major on prophecy, but I am a math major that read Theophilus, and it was awful hard to ignore his numbers, especially when I also know the terrible situation we're in today, as I described in my last post.

[pro610]

Eastline,
There are plenty of things you and I agree upon but I totally disagree with you on this.

Quote:
""The Roman Catholic Church will eventually be part of this church. This is due to the Liberal Cardinals that Pope John Paul II warned both Catholic and Protestants about."""


I guess the good news is (If you go along with your theory) then we are hundreds if not thousands of years from the second coming of our Lord.

All of the Cardinal,s that have been appointed by the late Pope Paul and the new Pope Benedict
are very conservative!

Excerpt: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.php?id=18507
The College of Cardinals is already mainly made up of like-minded conservatives reflecting John Paul's choices. The new batch will further cement the pope's influence on the choice of his successor and brings to at least 135 the number of people under age 80 and thus eligible to vote in a papal conclave.

This coupled with the fact that it takes hundreds of years for the Church to change its view on many things.(just look at the case of Limbo and infant Baptism that I posted on another thread)

I just don,t see the Catholic Church becoming liberal anytime soon or EVER.

Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.

A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).

[easeltine]

Shammah,

"Exactly how much worse do you expect it to get? Why would it matter if it got worse, since the one thing Jesus himself offered as proof of being sent by the Father is utterly destroyed, gone, and seemingly unrecoverable?"

Your viewpoint seems to me to be saying that a person who believes in the faith of their Catholic or Protestant Church cannot be saved.
The point is that the present Statement of Faith of most Christian churches are close enough to the Truth that a person can believe in the chruch's doctrines and still be saved.
*
On October 4th 1997, the largest gathering in the history of the United States of America took place. It was not a protest march, it was a gathering of Christians, from all denominations, falling on their faces before the Lord Jesus Christ asking for forgiveness for their sins. Some say their was as many as 1.4 million men, (I think 800,000), repenting to the Lord Jesus Christ. Some were Roman Catholics, some were Charismatics, and some were Baptists.
The stated reason at the Washington Mall:
'To gather a diverse multitude of men in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST to confess personal and collective sin so we may present to the Lord Godly men on their knees in humility. Then on their feet in unity, reconciled and poised for revival and spiritual awakening.'
What the Promise Keepers believe is a strong Christian Statement of Faith that Christians can unify under and still remain in their denominations.
It can get worse if one believes the doctrines of this New Age Liberal group of Churches that I have been talking about, and practice Open/Full Communion with these heretics. These churches will unite under the Antichrist when the time comes, and the Antichrist will not be POPE BENEDICT, the Scriptural advisor of Pope John Paul the II - NO WAY! These nutty catholic-bashing Protestants keep claiming this, but the Antichrist will be more universal in religion. These Liberal Churches are outside of the Christian Statement of Faith of "orthodox Christianity." They cannot believe in their church's Statements of Confusion and still be a Christian inside their churches. There doctrine right now adheres to The Jesus Seminar that:
1. States that only 16% of the Bible is historical.
2. States that the historical Jesus was just a man, not close to the way you believe in Jesus.
There doctrine right now makes no claim that Scriptures is Inerrant, or Infallible.
Some of these Liberal churches are presently ordaining practicing homosexuals and lesbians. Some of these churches are presently practicing homosexual marriage. All of these Liberal churches allow practicing homosexual members to take communion. These Liberal churches say that a sprikle of water on an infant once-saved-always-saves, eternal security, the infant, no matter what the sin the infant may practice later.
It's been one year that I have written regarding these churches on FACTNet and not one of the members of these churches have come on here to say that I'm wrong or defend themselves. That's because I am making correct statements regarding them.

THAT'S HOW IT CAN GET WORSE. I agreed with almost everything that you said in your posts, I just wanted to express myself on that one point.

[pro610]

Eastline,
Here is the way I see it...

The WHORE is the Media,publishers,radio television etc....
The media influences EVERYTHING including our education system.
(I have a daughter in college and it sickens me the things she tells me that these liberal professor,s try to impose on young minds.)

I have always said satan,s Bride is Liberalism.

Do you agree?

[ezekiel_37]

My opinion.....

Satan has been setting the stage for a long while now......

The 'change' in the church by the different denominations and different beliefs is Satan's spiritual influence here on earth....through the pulpit, the media, education...etc.

But I am under the impression that the Harlot Church is not to be formed until Satan, who is the anti-christ, makes his appearance in person, physically....

All will whore after him, thinking he is Christ.
All churches will unite and accept him as the messiah. All will be fooled except for God's 'elect'. They have a job to do and are 100% protected from the devil and his locust army.

No doubt that the Catholic Church will be heading this 'Apostacy'

The first part of Lucifer's plan happens on the wings of peace...false peace but world peace.

Peace in Christ

[jason12712]

I don't know who the whore of revelations is, but in the dark ages of the catholic church, the spirit of antichrist was on some of the popes (according to the reformers of that day and time), not saying that the antichrist will rise from the catholic church, but the catholic church in times past has been identified as anti-christ material. pro610, i'd like to invite you to read up on John Wycliffe, John Huss, William Tyndale, John Frith, Andrew Hewet, John Hooper, Martin Luther, and Dr. Rowland Taylor, who were all persecuted (as written in the Foxe's book of Martyrs) by the Catholic church from the 1200's to the 1500's. It would give you a larger viewpoint than just the things that the catholic church has shown you. Also realize that i'm not a basher of the catholic church, but would like you to see some of their dark history (if you are ignorant of that at any point) and, if my adivice can be taken, don't read of these people from a protestant or catholic standpoint, but read of these people from a reliable source. I'm sure this foxe's book of martyr's is a little bigot towards the catholic church (over half of the book talks about people martyred by the catholic church) so find a reliable source. God bless you and keep you from this liberal movement of satan

[pro610]

Jason,
I know the History of the Catholic Church,I also know Protestant History

What many don't know is that there was also a Protestant Inquisition after the Reform. Protestants also fell into a similar myopic approach to silencing dissenting views. It was not a "warm fuzzy" Holy Spirit environment back in the early days of the Reform. Tens of thousands of non-Anglicans were killed in England. It was brutal. In America, the Puritans (Protestants) also conducted an Inquisition where people were burned at the stake.

People thought differently in those days. Human rights, freedom of conscience, religious freedom and pluralism were concepts that grew out of experience and maturity of society and through doctrinal maturity. These concepts did not come into being until the last hundred years or so. Even the early reformers were not into "freedom of religion" and "free speech". Martin Luther said:

There are others who teach in opposition to some recognized article of faith which is manifestly grounded on Scripture . . . Heretics of this sort must not be tolerated, but punished as open blasphemers . . . If anyone wishes to preach or to teach, let him make known the call or the command which impels him to do so, or else let him keep silence. If he will not keep quiet, then let the civil authorities command the scoundrel to his rightful master - namely, Master Hans [i.e., the hangman]. (Janssen, X, 222; EA, Bd. 39, 250-258; Commentary on 82nd Psalm, 1530; cf. Durant, 423, Grisar, VI, 26-27)

In Scotland in 1699, an 18 year old, Thomas Akin was hung (put to death) by the local authorities who were Presbyterians. The charge was blaspheme. I think we must be very careful when we look at history, to understand the thinking and the context of incidents.


I,ll Catch up later I have to pick up my daughter from college

Peace in Christ

[jason12712]

I've recently been informed by other sources that Luther and Lutherans were brutal as well as Catholics. Any others you'd like to throw in the "brutality" pot? I'm pretty sure the mennonites were always peaceful, but not 100%. Let me know if you find anything out

[easeltine]

Bob,

"Liberalism is a mental disorder!"

Dr. Savage

[pro610]

Erich
Quote:
"Liberalism is a mental disorder!"

Dr. Savage""

Glad to see you enjoy our friend Dr Savage.

Both my daughter,s read his books.
I,ll tell you a funny story what the high school teacher,s had to say about it when I get the chance.

[easeltine]

"Any others you'd like to throw in the "brutality" pot? I'm pretty sure the mennonites were always peaceful, but not 100%. Let me know if you find anything out."

Just wanted to post some of the most blatant abuse by Protestants to throw into the "brutality" pot around this time period. From Turning Points by Mark A. Noll, "This stance was usually accompanied by an expectation that secular authorities would assist the implementation of reform once the proper course had been charted by ministers of the Word. Thus, in Geneva, Calvin approve the cooperation between secular and ecclesiastical authority that led to the execution of Michael Servetus in 1553 after the heretical publications of the Spanish physician had made him a hunted figure in Catholic as well as Protestant Europe. As Calvin viewed the situation, the church had a duty to point out the evil consequences of heresy."

We all know the abuses of the House of Tudors in England. Henry VIII writes against Luther defending the Roman Catholic Church. Then he wants to get a divorce from his wife for years, the Roman Catholic Katherine, (Charles V sister), due to the fact that she didn't have any boys. What a jerk this guy was!!
He executes a Roman Catholic with conviction, Sir Thomas Moore.
He executes the wife he gets after Katherine, Anne.
He executes a Protestant with conviction, William Tyndale.
Bloody Mary then executes the Archbishop Thomas Cranmer that wrote all the Statements of Faith for the Anglican Church, and the book of Common Prayer.
Bad stuff from both sides of the aisle!

[shammah]

Erich,

>>Your viewpoint seems to me to be saying that a person who believes in the faith of their Catholic or Protestant Church cannot be saved.<<

I'm not sure how you got this out of what I said.

Let me repeat myself. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be completely one so that the world would know his Father sent him. Those who claim to be his disciples are so far from being completely one that they are famous for their division and dissension.

That is already apostasy.

[shammah]

>>I'm pretty sure the mennonites were always peaceful, but not 100%.<<

Mostly. There was the Munster group. It's described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_Rebellion. These were Anabaptists before the time of Menno Symons, so they weren't Mennonites, though Menno was an Anabaptist. For the most part, they've avoided violence.

However, having met a lot of Mennonites, I can testify that conservative Mennonites are capable of being among the meanest, most vindictive and insulting people you'll ever meet. Not all of them, and some of the old order ones are very gentle, but there is no movement immune from self-righteousness and cruelty once they've left Christ.

[apilgrims]

Hello Shammah!
I want to understand you- just being divided from others or dissenting from one another means you're an apostate? Or am I reading you wrong?

What I mean is, don't all Christians claim to be His disciples? And we are all so divided among ourselves. Does that put us all into apostasy?
And, conversely, where there are clumps of agreement (each clump differing from another clump)- does the mere fact of agreeing with one another mean that that clump of Christians is the true Church? And if two different clumps are in complete agreement within themselves, but differ widely from one another, how to determine which is the true Body of Christ?

Looking forward to your answer- I'll check back tonight after the kids are in bed- one is literally hanging off my neck at this moment.. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
God bless you.

[shammah]

>>I want to understand you- just being divided from others or dissenting from one another means you're an apostate? Or am I reading you wrong?<<

Thanks for asking this question, because it helps me understand why I'm getting the responses I'm getting, which was confusing me.

The issue is not us, it is Christ. Is Christ glorified? The devil couldn't care less about you personally, friend. He cares whether Christ is glorified. And Jesus himself is the one who said that the world would know the Father sent him by the unity of his disciples.

The situation is that his disciples, or at least those who in general are recognized as his disciples, are famous for disunity and lack of love. From Christ's standpoint, it doesn't get any worse than that.

That's what I'm saying. Now let me address your specific question.

>>And we are all so divided among ourselves. Does that put us all into apostasy?<<

It makes us all part of the problem, yes. That's just reality and being honest. Let's look at it from God's eyes and not spend time defending ourselves.

>>does the mere fact of agreeing with one another mean that that clump of Christians is the true Church? And if two different clumps are in complete agreement within themselves, but differ widely from one another, how to determine which is the true Body of Christ?<<

Now these are wonderful questions. Because I've never fixed this problem in an entire country, I can't speak with any authority on how to do that. I can, however, tell you what we've done here in West Tennessee, and speak with some confidence, because what we've done has been effective.

First...well, first God intervened and really did something on his own, so steps aren't the answer. God's help is the answer. But first, we have to acknowledge the problem.

We made it our goal to band together with other disciples. We made it our goal to lay down our own opinions, work things out, and get before God.

We ended up with a group of about 200 people living together on one plot of land. We had to do a lot of fighting, spiritually, for the unity and love God built in us. Now, he's teaching us how to band together with other churches and break long standing barriers to unity.

Continued in the next post. Factnet posts can only be so long.

[shammah]

Finding out how to work together with other churches has been a real learning process, but we're encouraged lately that we're beginning to find people's hearts drawing into it. Again, we have to keep pulling back and leaning on God, who alone builds his church. While we were despairing and wondering if anyone had the heart to really work at unity, we were suddenly thrilled to find a local Christian businessman approaching us along with the pastor of the largest church in the county to talk about a "common ground," a place where our churches could work together in outreach to the community. At the same time, a pastor we really love but whom we were scared was backing out contacted us to say he's really wanting to go forward, and he's been following up on that desire. We're having a public park day with various churches next month.

There are a couple principles I consider essential. One, unity can only be accomplished among disciples. You will never have unity when the people you are trying to unite with are half-hearted.

Two, unity is not based on doctrine. Unity is based on the Spirit of God. If you will obey the command to "endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace," then God will keep his promise to provide what is needed "until you all come to the unity of the faith" (Eph 4:3,13).

The unity of the Spirit comes first, and the unity of the faith comes later. It can't work the other way around, and God will not support those who try the other way around. He wants to teach his people together, and he will do that if they will lay down their own pride, doctrines, and understanding.

I am not talking about the ecumenical movement, where you are okay with everyone. I am talking about disciples--those who will deny themselves, take up their cross daily, and follow him--uniting together to learn from God; to find his lead on what to do (because it's what the people of God do, not what they talk about or write down, that matters).

Now I've said a lot, and some of it may not be totally accurate. What is accurate, however, is that we need to acknowledge that our disunity and dissension dishonors Christ, and we need to quit thinking about ourselves and repent for the apostasy that we are a part of and are satisfied with.

www.rosecreekvillage.com (http://www.rosecreekvillage.com)

[apilgrims]

Dear Shammah-
I want to thank you for your lovely and goodhearted post. You really describe well what you hope for from the people you are walking with, and it sounds like you are all earnestly seeking Christ together, which, as you say, is the truly important part. I hope you don't mind if I continue to explore these questions in that same spirit?

I think your point about trying to unite wholeheartedly with people is well taken. We can have the doctrine down but if we have not love we are a resounding gong. I Corinthians 13. So a desire for unity and a heart of charity is the starting place. But we must believe in Christ and all His teachings in order to be truly, deeply unified. In Heaven, all will be made clear to those who love Him, and all division will cease; we can strive for that kind of unity on earth, but realistically we must know that even between any two people total, unswerving unity on every point large and small is rare. We must seek after unity as best we can, but I don't think we can set unity ahead of faith itself.

True unity will come through right belief, through belief in the actual unchanging person and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Many, many people believe that the sole repository of Christ's teachings is the Bible. Many, many others believe that the twin repositories, inseparable from one another, are the Holy Bible interpreted through Sacred Tradition. People in both groups are devout, loving people of good will who earnestly believe that their understanding is the correct one, and the best roadmap wherewith to follow Jesus. Certainly, each will want to share his understanding with the other. Not a bad thing, in and of itself- actually, a great act of love and mercy.

We must continue to have these discussions in the best spirit of charity we can muster, and ask the Holy Ghost to bless and guide our efforts. I think what we're both saying is that the goal is not to win arguments, the goal is to discover the truth together so we can share Heaven together.

God bless your day and your efforts!
Love,
Nancy

[arron]

rome is definatly the whore of revealation

[jason12712]

arron, Rome very well may be the whore, but not the catholic church. To tell the truth, if you're around when the whore of revelation is here, you'd have been better off dead, because that's after God comes for his children my friend. apilgrims, i've been enjoying the spirit of the conversation so far between me, you and pro610. however, i will not sanction, nor concur, with the traditions of man besides the teachings of the holy bible, no matter how sacred the tradition may be. The one tradition, which is longer standing than the Catholic church, i would use to interpret the bible, however, is prayer, and allow the Holy Spirit to speak and to interpret. That's why I've put aside bibles that use commentary (which are also expensive as well) and started using the bible only. Forgive me if this sort of breaks the charitable spirit we've been sharing, but i don't like seeing people blinded by tradition. i praise God that i'm able to type with a right mind, and the Spirit that He's put inside me, and am thankful for all brothers and sisters that know the truth of Christ and are in a relationship with Him, fighting the good fight of faith. God bless you

[shammah]

Nancy,

>>But we must believe in Christ and all His teachings in order to be truly, deeply unified.<<

I don't believe this is true. We are commanded to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Jesus said his disciples would be known by their love for one another. The early church had this kind of love:

"How much more fittingly are they called and counted brothers who have been led to the knowledge of God as their common Father...The family possessions, which generally destroy brotherhood among you, create fraternal bonds among us. One in mind and soul, we do not hesitate to share our earthly goods with one another. All things are common among us except our wives" (Tertullian, Apology 39, c. AD 200).

>>realistically we must know that even between any two people total, unswerving unity on every point large and small is rare.<<

I don't know how much God cares about unity on "points." I think the focus on doctrines and points is an American thing, not a godly or biblical thing. If we will bind together out of a common submission to Christ as Lord and keep the unity of the Spirit as he commanded, then he has promised to teach us everything we will need to know--together. Everything we have learned in our division is suspect, anyway.

More on that in an answer to jason

[shammah]

>>i don't like seeing people blinded by tradition<<

I've never met a person opposed to tradition who wasn't blinded by his own.

Do you believe the Bible is the pillar and support of the truth, or do you believe the church is?

Do you believe that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only?

Do you believe daily exhortation is what protects you from being deceived by sin, or do you think that Jesus and the Bible will do that alone?

Do you believe that you will reap eternal life by patiently continuing to do good without growing weary in it?

Every church I know of that rejects tradition to hold to the Bible alone through prayer will throw people out of their church for quoting the Bible. Maybe you're an exception, but I've never met one yet.

[ezekiel_37]

Hello people.....

I would like to address one posters remarks.

Jason12712 wrote

<font color="119911">arron, Rome very well may be the whore, but not the catholic church. To tell the truth, if you're around when the whore of revelation is here, you'd have been better off dead, because that's after God comes for his children my friend.

</font><font color="000000">I understand that you mean well but you are confused about the time line that the end times will follow.

God comes ONLY at the 7th trump. If you truely do not read any bible commentary anymore than the words of God should convince you that the gathering is AFTER the tribulation of the ANTI-CHRIST, who is pretending to be Jesus.

The rapture is PURE tradition started in the 1830's and never before spoken or taught.

ALL end time events are prophecy'ed about multiple times fromm different angles amungst the prophets and the Lord Jesus.

Let no man fool you for Christ WIL NOT return before the Man of Lawlessness (the devil playing Christ) is revealed.

No Pre or Mid tribulation gathering.....only at the 7th trump.</font>

[leftin1991]

Jason, ezekiel_37 is correct; the "Left Behind"/Rapture doctrine you and I were taught in NTCC is incorrect. It is an assumption to say the church is taken out in Rev. 4:1. It is true that Jesus is coming as a thief in the night. But if that's in 4:1, then we've got two thieves coming because over in 16:15 he says, "Behold I come as a thief." Oops Jesus, you already did that 12 chapters ago, don't you remember?

[apilgrims]

Dear Shammah- thank you so much for your answer- I don't disagree with you! What a beautiful world and what a tremendous blessing it would be for all believers to have that kind of love for one another. I agree with you that all are called to it by Christ, that it is indispensable and foremost: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God. And every one that loveth him who begot, loveth him also who is born of him." I John 5:1

I don't see that kind of love as being in competition with love for the truth as Christ teaches it. I see them as inseparable and indeed, fostering one another. Love for Christ's truths underscores and abets love for one's neighbor, and brings us closer to a knowledge of Him who Himself is all Truth. Knowing Him better can only help us love one another more dearly. In fact, St. John goes on to say:
"In this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep his commandments." I John 5:2
So I think we're basically in agreement on the first point, but disagree about the importance of having Christ's Truth in addition to His Love? Am I getting what you're saying?

See my note below to Jason about tradition, as well. God bless and keep you tonight!

[pro610]

Quote from ezekiel_37

""Let no man fool you for Christ WIL NOT return before the Man of Lawlessness (the devil playing Christ) is revealed.""

NOWHERE in scripture does it say the devil is going to be playing Christ.

Do you realize what you are even saying???
You are saying that the God of MERCY and LOVE will allow the devil to trick people into believing the devil is Christ.

Do you even realize just how cruel that would be??


It,s NOT true, Look at your scripture Brother/Sister

Holy Scripture is very precise in revealing just WHO Antichrist really is?

1."Dear children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have risen; whereby we know it is the last hour."
1John 2:18

2."Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son."
1John 2:22

3."And every spirit that severs Jesus, is not of GOD, but is of antichrist of whom you have heard that he is coming, and now is already in the world."
1John 4:3.

4."For many deceivers have gone forth into the world who do not confess Jesus as the Christ coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
2John 1:7.

Explain how someone who denies Jesus is the Christ pretends to be the Christ!

The antichrist is someone who denies Jesus,NOT someone who pretends to be JESUS!!!

Don,t come back with satan disguises himself as an angel of light either and twist the scriptures to fit this theory you have!

BTW, I don,t think I have the time spend debating this today or tomorrow.
God willing maybe if I get my work done I will.

Regards

[arron]

jason.. truly i want be here when the man of sin is revealed for i will be gone... with THE LORD JESUS.

[apilgrims]

Dear Jason, I think your post was perfectly charitable. I am thankful too, for your obvious love for the Lord and your willingness to treat people kindly even in disagreement.

You know, it's funny, but as I read these discussions I keep thinking to myself, but I agree with so much of what everyone is saying! (Obviously not all of it!) It seems to me that non-Catholics often see a competition of ideas or pillars or gifts where a Catholic sees those ideas, pillars, or gifts as hand-in-hand, not in opposition. Tradition versus the Bible-- how about the Bible is traditional and tradition is illuminated in the Bible? God's Word and His Hand, together? "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace, Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word." 2 Thess 14-16

Ooh, there's another one: faith and works. Faith versus works? How about works that are death without faith (Romans 9:32) and faith that is dead without works? (James 2:26)

Or, to continue the conversation with Shammah, how about daily exhortation in the name of Jesus and strengthened by His Word in the Bible? Both together, not in opposition to one another.
Why not believe that we will reap eternal life by patiently continuing to do good without growing weary in it, if it is all done in His Divine Love?

Uh oh, bedtime for the galloping hordes. Back later. God bless you and keep you!

[ezekiel_37]

the Devil-Satan, Lucifer, the Serpent, the man of Lawlessness, the King of Tyre, the King of Babylon, the Accusor, the Little Horn........

Many other names too!

The instead of Jesus, most know as the anti-christ is also known by his other roles.

He will CLAIM to be GOD in Jerusalem.
He will have the support of the entire wowrld, save the elect-zadok!

I was raised Roman Catholic and am now a non-denominational believer, with a fellowship of friends who believe likewise.

For many are deaf and blind. God has made it so to protect them.

God is now bringing His enemies to His footstool.
God will allow the Devil to play out his role as anti-christ. this is the death angel and Jesus is the Passover Lamb.

The Christians to whom Christ will say....I never knew you! They are fooled by anti-christ


Imagine that our God is setting up for the eternity.

Imagine that that is a very, very long time and God doesn't want any LOOSERS there. forever with good folks, in spiritual bodies, enjoying all of lifes pleasures, without sin.

Those Christians and others who WILL get fooled into the 1 world system, the 1 world religion (under satan-pretending to be Jesus) have yet to learn the life lessons that this flesh age is for.

God is teaching us all how to be good and not evil. How to choose kindness over selfeshness.

He will allow the deception so that in the Millenial 1000 years, they may learn the true lessons and be saved, chosen worthy to enter Heaven forever-Paradise right here on earth.

and by the way...where does it say that the Devil denies Christ....

He most assuradly knows exactly who Christ is and wants the role for himself....always has wanted to play God Ez28 among other places.

The devil knows Christ and cannot deny Him the Role of Messiah.

There are many anti-christs, but only one MAN of Lawlessness which the world has come to know as The anti-Christ,

Jesus warns us of him in Mat Mark Luke, the epistles, the letters to the chruches, Rev.

The man of Lawlessness is spoken of by almost each major and minor prophet.

The story is not hard to understand when coupled together with each prophetic account...they are telling the same story from multiple different angles, but the same thing is happening.....

The man of Lawlessness is claiming to be God...fooling the whole world except the elect.

[shammah]

>>So I think we're basically in agreement on the first point, but disagree about the importance of having Christ's Truth in addition to His Love? Am I getting what you're saying?<<

I'm talking practically. I'm talking about people being together. I'm all for seeking truth, and I believe that those who seek it together will find it, because it's promised to them by God.

However, when "truth" is an excuse for meeting in separate buildings and presenting division to the world, it is rarely truth.

Again, I am talking about disciples. People who deny themselves daily, take up their cross and follow him. Too often, disciples are united with nominal believers in some denomination's truth, which isn't truth at all but traditions and fantasies of men. Those who address Christ as Lord and are seeking to live for him every day ought to be together.

When they're not, and the world sees division and dissension, as they see in our United States, then the whole proof Jesus himself rested his reputation on is gone.

[apilgrims]

Dear Shammah-
If being together is foremost, then wouldn't it make sense to find the largest body of like-minded Christians and join them, trusting to the Holy Ghost to lead us all to truth together? Wouldn't this present the best sign of unity possible to a troubled world?

[shammah]

Great question, Nancy. Obviously, I can't answer that yes.

I live in Selmer, TN. It has a population of about 5,000 people. It is entirely possible for all the disciples in Selmer to be united and know one another, so that's the goal to me, and we're pursuing that wholeheartedly.

In a city like Nashville, though, that's impossible. The goal is still a real unity. "Real" meaning a practical one, where people are not divided by competing doctrines and denominations. How that would play out, I'm not sure. If the saints there were really interested in unity (most aren't, because they have no idea they should be), they could come up with a strategy for pursuing it. I'm not saying there's only one.

I don't think unity can be pursued in the nearest body if it's the typical one you find in America, some church building with members and a corporate-style structure. They have two problems. One, most of their members are not disciples (and no one is telling them they must be), and two, they are not open to change, either because of denominational superiors, or because of tradition.

I'm not saying it's wrong to pursue unity that way. I'm just saying that experience says that strategy is doomed not to work. I've known lots of people who have tried it.

I've carried this discussion pretty far. It started with my statement that the apostasy is already upon us and has been for centuries. Now we're discussing how to solve it, and I'm answering questions, which I'm glad for, but I don't want to pretend I have all those answers. I do, however, want to state emphatically that the current situation, with Christians famous for division and basically having no idea of the power of real church, is already apostasy, and we should be in a state of great alarm and distress over it. The churches of America are wretched, blind, and naked, and most are doing little or nothing about it.

In the next post, I'll address what "real" church offers when it happens, and a little of what it should look like.

[leftin1991]

pro610, The term "anti" means more than just "against"; it can also mean "in place of," which is the sense in which it is used in Mat. 24 and other places. You need to take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, and you will learn that a strong delusion is part of God's plan to damn those who receive not the love of the truth.

[shammah]

The following are things that ought to be true of every church, if churches were like the ones the apostles started. For 200 years afer the time of the apostles EVERY church was like this.

I mention these things, because to add to the awful division that Christians are known for, here's what Christians are missing out on, because they are in churches that are comfortably living in the sins of dissension and division. These are further signs of the great apostasy we are already in.

1. There is "great grace" (Acts 4:33). As a result, every member is growing simply by the great grace flowing from being attached to the church (Jn 15:1-7; Php 1:6).

2. No member is in need, because disciples take care of each other, like a family.

3. No member is lonely, because every member is known, and lives by himself or herself only if they choose to.

4. Every member is participatory in the life of the church in some manner, because growth of the body of Christ only happens by the supply of strength from each joint and by the effective working of each individual part (Eph 4:16).

5. The Master himself cares about it, and if it begins to wander, he sends it warning in some manner (Rev 2 &amp; 3; 1 Jn 2:27).

That is what the church is supposed to offer. It is supposed to be the household of God, not a building to hold meetings in.

[pro610]

leftin1991

I just don,t see the Anti-Christ coming out of any Christian group or organization.

If anything, I think the Anti Christ will come from a muslim,hindu,Buddhist type or leader that will lead the weak in Christian faith away.
Just some thoughts though.

Personally I try not to get to caught up in the end times,for me ,I feel its more important to take care of TODAY instead of trying to predict such things.
NO ONE KNOWS!

The truth is we can step out the door and get hit by a car,thus that will be OUR end time.

That,s why we always need to be READY!

Peace in Christ

[ezekiel_37]

<font color="0000ff">the anti-christ is the one who claims to be God in Jerusalem. He fools the world by ways of wonder, calling lightning from the sky at his command among other things like bringing a false world peace.

This is not a man but the fallen angel Lucifer/Satan/the Serpent/the man of Lawlessness.

He is currently held by the arc angel Michael by the power of God, in a jail of sorts until he is kicked from heaven and sent to the earth....
Rev 12 7-12-the devil being kicked from heaven to earth for a short time.

how long...
5 month tribulation
Satans Locust Army is here on earth for 5 months
Rev9-states this twice.



He is not a man but an angel.
a real bad angel
and he'll be playing Jesus!
He'll come in like we think Jesus will... on a white horse.... on the winggs of peace, but with many at his side, immitating Christ's return
Rev6-the first seal is the false Christ!

we shall know the season

.......but THE anti-christ is not a man.

I know the topic of the thread is supposed to bring out teachings on the Catholic church as being the Whore of the Book of Revelation...but I do not see it quite that simple.

They lead...true
they are the largest...true
this is where the anti-christ will rule from at the beginning... true

but all who follow the anti-christ instead of waiting for the true Christ are part of the whore.

all denominations.

2 of 7 churches are approved by God and 5 are not.

The 2 approved churches teach something in common..

what is that?
</font>

[apilgrims]

My dear Shammah!

Sounds like Heaven!

Have a blessed night and thank you so very much for your spirit of camaraderie and good will.

In Christ,
Nancy

[leftin1991]

Shammah, Evidently both of the approved churches had to contend with the synagogue of Satan!

[ezekiel_37]

this is prophetic and the churches today HAVE to contend with them

Peace
c

[shammah]

leftin91,

Um, I understand that the approved churches you mentioned are Smyrna &amp; Philadelphia from Rev 2&amp;3. I understand what you mean by the synagogue of satan, but I'm sure you were trying to say something by your statement that I'm missing.

To zeke, I would say the churches today ARE them, with some exceptions.

[thekingsent1_again]

You all are missing something here.
The nation of Judah/Israel was set apart as God's special people. He taught them about himself, his ways and what he requires of man.
And what happened to this nation that he set apart?
They were almost totally disobediant, as they should not have been because God revealed to them what he did not reveal to others.
This nation was a PRECURSER to his New Testament people that were to be set apart.
The exact same thing has occured to his New Testament Church as his Old Testament one.
The people of Israel became harlots and so God cast them out.
And how were they becoming harlots?
Because they mixed in paganism along with worship to him.
The harlotess, Jezebel, is the one that spread the infection like wildfire to the nation.
Just the same, the Roman Catholic Church is the New Testament Jezebel, which has done the same to the New Testament nation.
The bible is not hiding the fact that the R.C.C. is the mother of the New Testament harlots.
It is just that those in practise of such things refuse to believe that what they are doing is unacceptable.
Same as the Saducees and Pharissees before them.
Again...THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. And the head of this poisoned worship system is THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS..IE..The pope/popes! Ie..666, the beast worship system, the latin kingdom, Rome!
Nuff said......

[ezekiel_37]

does your church King..teach about the ones who pretend to be Jews but are not and are from the synagog of Sata?

cauase if not....then....

[easeltine]

Thekingsent1_again,

The spirit of Jezebel/Mother-Child religion is even MORE strong in these liberal, new age, Protestant churches then Roman Catholicism. The harlot church will be formed by all religions when the Antichrist comes in power. If the current Roman Catholic Church becomes part of this one world church in the very near future it will have to take place by the false church physically killing Pope Benedict and over half the Cardinals. The fact is that Pope Benedict may be one of the most Scripture focused Popes in history.
I believe it will one day happen that the Roman Catholic Church will unite with these liberal Protestants and other religions. The current circumstances regarding the Catholic Church is the main point that leads me to the conclusion that the end is not in the very near future.

Erich

[ezekiel_37]

erich....have you ever studied the parable of the fig tree?

Peace
c

[easeltine]

Ezekiel_37,

Just some strange stuff I was taught.

When I was young I went to a "Latter-Day Rain" Church. They taught me, Matt. 24:34 that this generation would not pass away. This meant that Jesus would come back within the generation as described in this passage. They told me that the fig tree represented Israel. They said that branch putting forth the leaves was when Israel became a nation in 1948. A Biblical generation they taught was 40 years. Now, if you take the date of 1948 and you add 40 years, minus the
3 1/2 years, (since we were mid-trib), that would be the year 1988 - 3 1/2 = 1984. 1984 has come and gone an Jesus has not returned yet.
Well, if the generation were actually 70 years and not 40 years as they believe then we would add 70 years to the year 1948 and that would give us the year 2018, which would mean that Jesus could come back within the years 2011, 2015, or 2018 depending on what your viewpoint of the Rapture is - pre, mid, or end.
***
What I do not see happening Ezekiel is the rapid rise of the Harlot Church, a one-world religion. I see the beginnings, but the false church has a long ways to go.
But, Matthew 24:44 is still the correct position that all of us should be prepared for.

[ezekiel_37]

Your understanding is similar to mine

The generation coud have meant 40, 70, or 120 years....

But it didn't mean that all of those years had to expire, just that the last generation wouldn't all passs away before He returns. We will be close to the end of those years but who knows when....

only discernment of world events can tell us when we are indeed in the season.

Are we now in the season...We are close.
The tribulation hasn't started yet but the anti-christ spirit has been around and spreading contempt and false theology for a long time now.

The one world church doesn't come into full swing until the AC makes his appearance at the mid-trib mark.

Many believe the tribulation to be 7 years
Many think it is 3 1/2 years
Some think thatit is a year
Some think that it is 5 months.

I believe that it is 5 months (Rev 9) and that both the one world govmnt and the one world religion will come upon us REALLY quickly.....and that most won't even know that they are in it!


As for rapture...i dislike that term.....It speaks of an escape from the earth before the test!

I don't buy it one bit....in fact I would stake my life on it. There is only one gathering spoken of before the Lord comes and that is at and only at the 7TH TRUMP and not before....

to believe otherwise is to deny Christ's words

Post trib if you must use the term rapture but there is no escaping...the elect are kept from temptation by not being tempted by Satan, who is pretending to be Jesus. The elect know the truth about the fake comming first and will wait for the true Christ Messiah to come.

All the world, save the elect, are fooled into believing the Devil is Jesus. That includes many, many Christians.

The rapture belief is a sure way into Satan's camp when he comes a callin........cause he will come a callin....rapture ,rapture....

Heaven is comming here and we aren't going anywhere. Jesus is comming here
His Saints are comming here

Everything is comming Here! to earth which will become Paradise.



The rise of the one world church will not happen until the fake Jesus arrives.

The one world political system that the fallen angels general will almost win total world control but will receive a deadly wound.

This deadly wound should render the new one world political system void but it does not.

The anti-christ arrives on the scene and saves this one world system....

after that arrival, the whole world takes him as the real Christ and blindly follows him throughout his campain of false peace. This is the very quick rise to power of the one world church, lead by Satan and his fallen angels.

this is the great APOSTACY!

[pro610]

Part#1
From
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm

I. EXISTENCE OF THE GENERAL JUDGMENT
1. Few truths are more often or more clearly proclaimed in Scripture than that of the general judgment. To it the prophets of the Old Testament refer when they speak of the "Day of the Lord" (Joel 2:31; Ezekiel 13:5; Isaiah 2:12), in which the nations will be summoned to judgment. In the New Testament the second Parusia, or coming of Christ as Judge of the world, is an oft-repeated doctrine. The Saviour Himself not only foretells the event but graphically portrays its circumstances (Matthew 24:27 sqq.; 25:31 sqq.). The Apostles give a most prominent place to this doctrine in their preaching (Acts 10:42; 17:31) and writings (Romans 2:5-16; 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:5; James 5:7). Besides the name Parusia (parousia), or Advent (1 Corinthians 15:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:19), the Second Coming is also called Epiphany, epiphaneia, or Appearance (2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:13), and Apocalypse (apokalypsis), or Revelation (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Peter 4:13). The time of the Second Coming is spoken of as "that Day" (2 Timothy 4:8), "the day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 5:2), "the day of Christ" (Philemon 1:6), "the day of the Son of Man" (Luke 17:30), "the last day" (John 6:39-40).

2. The belief in the general judgment has prevailed at all times and in all places within the Church. It is contained as an article of faith in all the ancient creeds: "He ascended into heaven. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead" (Apostles' Creed). He shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead" (Nicene Creed). "From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, at whose coming all men must rise with their bodies and are to render an account of their deeds" (Athanasian Creed). Relying on the authority of Papias, several Fathers of the first four centuries advanced the theory of a thousand years' terrestrial reign of Christ with the saints to precede the end of the World (see article on MILLENNIUM). Though this idea is interwoven with the eschatological teachings of those writers, it in no way detracted from their belief in a universal world-judgment. Patristic testimony to this dogma is clear and unanimous.

3. The Roman Catechism thus explains why, besides the particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

[pro610]

Part 2
The Scriptures mention certain events which are to take place before the final judgment. These predictions were not intended to serve as indications of the exact time of the judgment, for that day and hour are known only to the Father, and will come when least expected. They were meant to foreshadow the last judgment and to keep the end of the world present to the minds of Christians, without, however, exciting useless curiosity and vain fears. Theologians usually enumerate the following nine events as signs of the last judgment:

1. General Preaching of the Christian Religion. Concerning this sign the Saviour says: "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come" (Matthew 24:14). This sign was understood by Chrysostom and Theophilus as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, but, according to the majority of interpreters, Christ is here speaking of the end of the world.

2. Conversion of the Jews. According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): "For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob".

3. Return of Enoch and Elijah. The belief that these two men, who have never tasted death, are reserved for the last times to be precursors of the Second Advent was practically unanimous among the Fathers, which belief they base on several texts of Scripture. (Concerning Elijah see Malachi 4:5-6; Sirach 48:10; Matthew 17:11; concerning Enoch see Sirach 44:16)

4. A Great Apostasy. As to this event St. Paul admonishes the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2:3) that they must not be terrified, as if the day of the Lord were at hand, for there must first come a revolt (he apostasia).The Fathers and interpreters understand by this revolt a great reduction in the number of the faithful through the abandonment of the Christian religion by many nations. Some commentators cite as confirmatory of this belief the words of Christ: "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8).

5. The Reign of Antichrist. In the passage above mentioned (2 Thessalonians 2:3 sqq.) St. Paul indicates as another sign of the day of the Lord, the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition. "The man of sin" here described is generally identified with the Antichrist, who, says St. John (1 John 2:18), is to come in the last days. Although much obscurity and difference of opinion prevails on this subject, it is generally admitted from the foregoing and other texts that before the Second Coming there will arise a powerful adversary of Christ, who will seduce the nations by his wonders, and persecute the Church.

[pro610]

Part#3
6. Extraordinary Perturbations of Nature. The Scriptures clearly indicate that the judgment will be preceded by unwonted and terrifying disturbances of the physical universe (Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25-26). The wars, pestilences, famines, and earthquakes foretold in Matthew 24:6 sq., are also understood by some writers as among the calamities of the last times.

7. The Universal Conflagration. In the Apostolic writings we are told that the end of the world will be brought about through a general conflagration, which, however, will not annihilate the present creation, but will change its form and appearance (2 Peter 3:10-13; cf. 1 Thessalonians 5:2; Apocalypse 3:3, and 16:15). Natural science shows the possibility of such a catastrophe being produced in the ordinary course of events, but theologians generally tend to believe that its origin will be entirely miraculous.

8. The Trumpet of Resurrection. Several texts in the New Testament make mention of a voice or trumpet which will awaken the dead to resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; John 5:28). According to St. Thomas (Supplement 86:2) there is reference in these passages either to the voice or to the apparition of Christ, which will cause the resurrection of the dead.

9. "The Sign of the Son of Man Appearing in the Heavens." In Matthew 24:30, this is indicated as the sign immediately preceding the appearance of Christ to judge the world. By this sign the Fathers of the Church generally understand the appearance in the sky of the Cross on which the Saviour died or else of a wonderful cross of light.

[pro610]

Part#4
III. CIRCUMSTANCES ACCOMPANYING THE GENERAL JUDGMENT
1. Time. As was stated above, the signs that are to precede the judgment give no accurate indication of the time when it will occur (Mark 13:32). When the Disciples asked the Saviour: "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" He answered: "It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7). The uncertainty of the day of judgment is continually urged by Christ and the Apostles as an incentive to vigilance. The day of the Lord will come "as a thief" (Matthew 24:42-43), like lightning suddenly appearing (Matthew 24:27), like a snare (Luke 21:34), as the Deluge (Matthew 24:37).

2. Place of the Judgment. All the texts in which mention is made of the Parusia, or Second Coming, seem to imply clearly enough that the general judgment will take place on the earth. Some commentators infer from 1 Thessalonians 4:16, that the judgment will be held in the air, the newly risen being carried into the clouds to meet Christ; according to others the prophecy of Joel (3:1 sq.) places the last judgment in the Valley of Josaphat.

3. The Coming of the Judge. That this judgment is ascribed to Christ, not only as God, but also as Man, is expressly declared in Scripture; for although the power of judging is common to all the Persons of the Trinity, yet it is specially attributed to the Son, because to Him also in a special manner is ascribed wisdom. But that as Man He will judge the world is confirmed by Christ Himself (John 5:26-27). At the Second Coming Christ will appear in the heavens, seated on a cloud and surrounded by the angelic hosts (Matthew 16:27; 24:30; 25:31). The angels will minister to the Judge by bringing all before Him (Matthew 24:31). The elect will aid Christ in a judicial capacity (1 Corinthians 6:2). The lives of the just will in themselves be a condemnation of the wicked (Matthew 21:41), whose punishment they will publicly approve. But the Apostles will be judges of the world in a sense yet more exact, for the promise that they shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28) seems to imply a real participation in judicial authority. According to a very probable opinion, this prerogative is extended to all who have faithfully fulfilled the counsels of the Gospel (Matthew 19:27-28). Nothing certain is known as to the manner in which this delegated authority will be exercised. St. Thomas conjectures that the greater saints will make known the sentence of Christ to others (Supplement 88:2).

[pro610]

Part#5
4. Those to be Judged. All men, both good and bad, according to the Athanasian Creed, will appear in the judgment to give an account of their deeds. As to children that have personally done neither good nor evil, the baptized must be distinguished from the unbaptized. The former appear in the judgment, not to be judged, but only to hold the glory of Christ (Supplement 80:5), while the latter, ranked with the wicked, although not judged, will be enabled to realize the justice of their eternal loss (Suarez). The angels and the demons will not be judged directly, since their eternal destiny has already been fixed; yet, because they have exercised a certain influence over the fortunes of men, the sentence pronounced on the latter will have a corresponding effect on them also (Supplement 89:8).

5. Object of the Judgment. The judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as forgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). With the exception of Peter Lombard, theologians teach that even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour.

6. Form of the Judgment. The procedure of the judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46, and in the Apocalypse 20:12. Commentators see in those passages allegorical descriptions intended to convey in a vivid manner the fact that in the last judgment the conduct and deserts of each individual will be made plain not only to his own conscience but to the knowledge of the assembled world. It is probable that no words will be spoken in the judgment, but that in one instant, through a Divine illumination, each creature will thoroughly understand his own moral condition and that of every fellow creature (Romans 2:15). Many believe, however, that the words of the sentence: "Come, ye blessed", etc. and "Depart from me", etc. will be really addressed by Christ to the multitude of the saved and the lost.

IV. RESULTS OF THE GENERAL JUDGMENT
With the fulfilment of the sentence pronounced in the last judgment the relations and the dealings of the Creator with the creature find their culmination, are explained and justified. The Divine purpose being accomplished, the human race will, as a consequence, attain its final destiny. The reign of Christ over mankind will be the sequel of the General Judgment.

[pro610]

ANTICHRIST
from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm

Excerpt;
In composition anti has different meanings: antibasileus denotes a king who fills an interregnum; antistrategos, a propraetor; anthoupatos, a proconsul; in Homer antitheos denotes one resembling a god in power and beauty, while in other works it stands for a hostile god. Following mere analogy one might interpret antichristos as denoting one resembling Christ in appearance and power; but it is safer to define the word according to its biblical and ecclesiastical usage.

I. BIBLICAL MEANING OF THE WORD
The word Antichrist occurs only in the Johannine Epistles; but there are so-called real parallelisms to these occurrences in the Apocalypse, in the Pauline Epistles, and less explicit ones in the Gospels and the Book of Daniel.

A. In the Johannine Epistles

St. John supposes in his Epistles that the early Christians are acquainted with the teaching concerning the coming of Antichrist. "You have heard that Antichrist cometh" (1 John 2:18); "This is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh" (1 John 4:3). Though the Apostle speaks of several Antichrists, he distinguishes between the many and the one principal agent: "Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists" (1 John 2:18). Again, the writer outlines the character and work of Antichrist: "They went out from us, but they were not of us" (1 John 2;19); "Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son" (1 John 2:22); "And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God; and this is Antichrist" (1 John 4:3); "For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an Antichrist" (2 John 7). Also the time, the Apostle places the coming of Antichrist at "the last hour" (1 John 2:18); again he maintains that "he is now already in the world" (1 John 4:3).

B. In the Apocalypse

Nearly all commentators find Antichrist mentioned in the Apocalypse, but they do not agree as to the particular chapter of the Book in which the mention occurs. Some point to the "beast" of 11:7, others to the "red dragon" of Chapter 12, others again to the beast "having seven heads and ten horns" of 13, sqq., while many scholars identify Antichrist with the beast which had "two horns, like a lamb" and spoke "as a dragon" (13:11, sqq.), or with the scarlet-coloured beast "having seven heads and ten horns" (17), or, finally, with Satan "loosed out of his prison," and seducing the nations (20:7, sqq.). A detailed discussion of the reasons for and against each of these opinions would be out of place here.