Jesus Christ vs Antichrist Compared

[leftin1991]

JESUS CHRIST VS. AN ANTICHRIST: COMPARED

CHRIST: Wore a crown of thorns.
ANTICHRIST: Wears a crown of jewels.

CHRIST: Carried on His shoulders the cross
ANTICHRIST: Is carried on the shoulders of his servants in splendor.

CHRIST: Rode into the city on a donkey.
ANTICHRIST: Has his bullet-proof popemobile.

CHRIST: Declared the laws of His kingdom, and urged His followers to do the same.
ANTICHRIST: Tramples them underfood and substitutes his own in their stead.

CHRIST: Sent His Holy Spirit to be His Vicar on earth.
ANTICHRIST: Claims to be the head and Vicar of Christ on earth.

CHRIST: Is the Head OF His church.
ANTICHRIST: Makes a false claim as head.

CHRIST: Taught that sin should be confessed to God.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches that the church is the Savior.

CHRIST: Taught that there is but one Mediator between God and men, Himself.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches that there are many mediators between God and men.

CHRIST: Taught that salvation is by grace through faith alone.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches that salvation is by works of merit.

CHRIST: Claimed infallibility for Himself and the Word of God alone.
ANTICHRIST: Claims infallibility for himself in matters of faith and morals.

CHRIST: While on earth, had no place to lay His head.
ANTICHRIST: Lives in a magnificent palace surrounded by evidence of wealth.

CHRIST: Gave His Gospel free to all.
ANTICHRIST: Sells his masses and other favors.

CHRIST: Said "Call no man your father upon earth, for One is your Father, which is in Heaven."
ANTICHRIST: Commands all to call him "Holy Father" and his priests are insulted if persons do not address them as "father."

CHRIST: Was poor and lowly.
ANTICHRIST: His wealth is immense.

CHRIST: Washed His disciples' feet, manifesting a spirit of humility worthy of emulation by His followers.
ANTICHRIST: Presents his foot to be kissed, and requires genuflections and kneeling from those who have audiences with him.
CHRIST: Taught His followers to pray to God through him.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches his followers to pray to the Virgin Mary.

Yes indeed, there is a tremendous gulf between the two!!

Excerpt from "Battle Cry": http://www.chick.com/bc/

[arron]

amen

[egk]

Dear Left and Arron,

Why don't you quote the other "facts" about the RCC as revealed by Chick?

The RCC created Islam.
The RCC started WWI and WWII.
The RCC created Communism.
THe RCC killed A. Lincoln.
(I forgot whether or not the RCC started the Civil War.)

As a former born again Evangelical, I can tell you that there are legimate issues dividing the RCC from Evangelical Christians. Please study and debate them. The stuff Chick publishes bogus. May I suggest that you read, "Catholic and Christian" by Dr. Alan Schreck.

Also Arron, if you doubt my being born-again because after much prayer and Scripture study I became Catholic, may I quote Jesus, "Judge not, and you will not be judged." Ultimately, God knows my faith.

EGK

[leftin1991]

The RCC did not start the Civil War per se, but it is a historical fact that they supported the Confederacy. And Islam itself will tell you that they are a "spin-off" religion from Catholicism. That is why they pray together at Fatima in Portugal. Fatima was Mohammed's daughter by one of the two ex-nuns he married. They admit to borrowing the women's head covering from Christianity, because the Koran does not teach that!

If you don't believe in the Vatican's connection with WWII, just ask around and find out whether Hitler was ever excommunicated or not. I am eager to hear your answer!

Regardless of all that, do you have nothing to say about the blatant contrast between Christ and the pope? I guess you found the pope in the Bible too, right?

[egk]

leftin1991

The comparision are inaccurate and reveals that the author does not understand the RCC.


<font color="0000ff">CHRIST: Taught that there is but one Mediator between God and men, Himself.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches that there are many mediators between God and men. </font>

The RCC teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

<font color="0000ff">CHRIST: Taught that salvation is by grace through faith alone.
ANTICHRIST: Teaches that salvation is by works of merit.</font>

Actually Christ, the Bible, and the RCC teaches that salvation is by grace though faith. Luther added the word "alone" to the Scripture to justify his doctrines.

<font color="0000ff">If you don't believe in the Vatican's connection with WWII, just ask around and find out whether Hitler was ever excommunicated or not. I am eager to hear your answer!</font>

True, the RCC never excommunicated Hitler. Since Hitler was not a practicing Catholic such as action would have had no consequences. How would have excommunicating a man who happened to be baptized in a Catholic Church and didn't practice that faith change WWII at all? Please get real!

<font color="0000ff">And Islam itself will tell you that they are a "spin-off" religion from Catholicism.</font>

Really, please give me documentation of this, from Islamic sources.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to continue.

EGK

[thekingsent1_again]

...leftin........

Think about it......

Say there is a guy who owns a Porshe 411 convertable. He keeps telling you that his car is the greatest and is in a-one condition. He shows you its perfectly undented body, the receipt proving its value, and that the interior is vacumned clean and immaculate.
But, you explain...look, your car is spewing out black exhaust and it has a puddle of oil under the engine.
The man tells you ,"What is a matter with you? Can't you see? This car is immaculate, perfect, and of great value. I proved it to you. I showed you what matters."
Unless, God give one eyes to see, they cannot see. You can show them and they still cannot comprehend. You can dip your hand in the oil slick and wipe it on their arm but they will refuse to acknowledge one thing. The truth.
Unless they have been born of the spirit they cannot comprehend the diffrence between being born into the world and then being born of the spirit while in the world.
I have noticed that you can tell someone the truth and yet they cannot comprehend that it is the truth.
Just remember when you were not born of God. You thought that you were following him. But you were not. Because at that time, you did not get it and it would have been quite unprobable that someone telling you what we are telling others, that you could have even believed it as truth.
Because you were blind when you thought you were not.
They are speaking as from the world.
We are speaking as not from the world.
We are aliens here now.
They belong here and are at home.
We hate it here.
They like it here.


Anyways.....very good and truthful post leftin.

[thekingsent1_again]

leftin......

I want more comparisons please......

more more more thank you!

[leftin1991]

Kingsent1: Glad you liked the post. I like your analogy of the Porsche with the blown engine to RCC, cuz that's right.

EGK: OK, here is what Islam says about their common heritage with Catholicism: http://www.essaysbyekowa.com/Islam.htm

If you do not believe that Mary is viewed as a "Mediatrix" with God/Jesus, either you're a big liar, or you are certainly out of the loop with John Paul II and current Catholic thought! Nuff said.

RCC may make the claim to Protestants that salvation is by grace through faith, but that is just window dressing because that is not what they truly believe. Were that the case, they would have no "indulgences," "Lent," "rosary," "penance," "prayers for the dead," "priestcraft," etc.

Yes, it certainly would have been a good-faith gesture to the entire world for the RCC to distance themselves from Hitler in every possible way! Truth is, Hitler died with Roman Catholic church membership and that has never changed, for he was doing the "dirty work" of Rome! If they deny that, let them prove it by their actions.

[thekingsent1_again]

Leftin......

The tree and the fruit is a ridiculously easy truth to find out who is who.
The tree=the Catholic Church
The fruit= about 60 million murders.
Nuff said, simply!
But do not forget one other thing.
The tree= Martin Luther.
The fruit= The Jews and Their Lies.
And.....
"The Tree"= Israel and her King.
"The Fruit"= Those grafted into this trees trunk. Albeit, branches were removed for us to join.
P.S. Was it Stan Lee that coined..nuff said?
It has been years since I collected comics.

[egk]

leftin1991

<font color="0000ff">Yes, it certainly would have been a good-faith gesture to the entire world for the RCC to distance themselves from Hitler in every possible way! Truth is, Hitler died with Roman Catholic church membership and that has never changed, for he was doing the "dirty work" of Rome! If they deny that, let them prove it by their actions.</font>

What was the dirty work Hitler did for the RCC? Please explain and document. What actions would prove otherwise?

EGK

[leftin1991]

Hitler's dirty work was attempted extermination of the Jews! Catholicism by nature has always been anti-Semitic. The behind the scenes details of the Vatican's set-up of and support for Hitler are available, but we need look no further than the fact that Italy was allied with Germany, during both World Wars I and II. For whatever it is worth, the RCC has already made an apology or two to Israel and the Jews for some things, which is wonderful! I take that with a grain of salt. But to issue an edict actually repudiating Hitler and his evil deeds, as well as an ex post facto excommunication of Hitler would be a wonderful thing to hear, be it sincere or not.

[egk]

leftin1991

Interesting claim! Please back it up with documentation! I've read historians who trace German anti-Semitism to Martin Luther. The only source I've seen your claim from is from Chick who traces it to Alberto Rivera.

EGK

[egk]

leftin1991,

I just skimmed the Islamic link you gave a few days ago. It is true that one of Mahommad's wife was a practicing Christian. Whether or not she was Catholic I don't know. I believe this Christian wife was also the mother of Fatima.

The link simply assumes that this wife was used by the RCC to create Islam. It offers no proof.

It is also true that there are some superficial similarities between RCC practices and those in pagan religions. This does not prove there is a connection. Because there are some superficial similarities between the story of Mithra's birth and Jesus, does this prove there is a connection?

EGK

[pro610]

EGK,Leftin1991

Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust.
Here is an excellent article on this subject

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html

excerpt;
We must remember that the Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:

***"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."***

In another, similar statement, Einstein referred explicitly to the Catholic Church (Lapide, p. 251). This is an extraordinary testimony by an agnostic German scientist of Jewish heritage. Even though there were traitors in her ranks, the Church still opposed the Nazi movement.

[jason12712]

About Catholics, I've had associations with Catholic people, who are very good people. I don't think that it is right for them to ask "saints" to pray for them, nor the "Virgin Mary", but some Catholics I've met pray more and love God more than professing Christians not of the Catholic faith. My church is a Christian church, but there is a man that is Catholic that still attends because he loves God and prayer, and to fellowship with saints of God (no i'm not talking about the idols catholics set up as saints, i'm talking about living saved christian saints). in fact, i'm convinced that this catholic man i know is saved, though not having received the holy spirit baptism since he believed. God bless ya'll.

[jason12712]

About Catholics, I've had associations with Catholic people, who are very good people. I don't think that it is right for them to ask "saints" to pray for them, nor the "Virgin Mary", but some Catholics I've met pray more and love God more than professing Christians not of the Catholic faith. My church is a Christian church, but there is a man that is Catholic that still attends because he loves God and prayer, and to fellowship with saints of God (no i'm not talking about the idols catholics set up as saints, i'm talking about living saved christian saints). in fact, i'm convinced that this catholic man i know is saved, though not having received the holy spirit baptism since he believed. God bless ya'll.

[pro610]

Jason,
Part#1
Quote"
"I don't think that it is right for them to ask "saints" to pray for them, nor the "Virgin Mary"


That is what non-Catholics say to Catholics. We should only pray to GOD, they say. But do Catholics really pray to Mary or is there something others do not understand? I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."
Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?
He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother. Now let us see if Catholics 'pray' to Mary.

[pro610]

Part#2
Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 "...and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, "...and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Now the next question is, 'Yes, but it is repetitious (the Rosary) and that is forbidden by scripture'. (Mt 6:7)
OK, look at the entries listed above which have the asterisk (*) in front of them.
Are not Col 1:9, "This is why we have been praying for you unceasingly...", 1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more...", and 2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you...", repetitious? Is this one of those so called 'Bible Conflicts' you hear about from time to time?
No, not at all.
The answer is that the Bible refers to two types of prayer repetition '(V)ain', in the manner of heathens, and '(U)seful', NOT in the manner of heathens.
The Rosary is also not vain repetition. Here is a list of some in each category that you can check in your Bible. (V) 1King 18:25-29, (U) Isa 6:3, (U) Dan 3:52-90, (V) *Mt 6:7, (U) Mt *26:44, (U) *Lk 6:12, (U) Lk 18:1,9-14,*21:36, (U)*Col 1:9, (U) 1Thes 3:10,5:17, (U) *Jam 5:16, (U) **Rev 4:8

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

I hope this helps you understand Brother.

Jason, it sounds like your Catholic friend is abiding in Chirst,we all have that ability and it has nothing to do with being Catholic,Protestant or anything else.

If We LOVE we abide in Christ.

God Bless

[jason12712]

i did say i did not think it was right for catholics to ask saints, (and i'm talking dead saints here) to pray for them, i didn't say pray to saints. i know if i say that catholics pray to saints, it would be like stirring up a hornets nest. anyone honest here, look up the word pray and see what it means

[pro610]

Jason,
I think you need to go back and re-read my post brother.
My intention was not to upset you,I apologize it came off that way.
My only point was to show you that prayers to Mary and Saints are Biblical.

Do you believe Mary is in heaven?
If you do you should have no problem understanding what was written in my post

Regards

[egk]

leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff">
If you do not believe that Mary is viewed as a "Mediatrix" with God/Jesus, either you're a big liar, or you are certainly out of the loop with John Paul II and current Catholic thought! Nuff said. </font>

Actually there is a third option. I understand what the RCC teaches about Mary and I understand that it does NOT contradict the Biblical teaching that Jesus is the only mediatior between God and Man.

Let me tell you a story. Shortly after I became Catholic I met a RCC priest and we had a discussion that went something like this...

P: Protestants teach that it is OK to sin.

M: No they don't.

P: Yes they do, they believe in salvation through faith alone.

M: Salvation by faith alone does not teach that!

P: Yes it does, you just have to believe and that's all. Luther himself taught "Sin boldly, but believe even more boldly"....

No matter what I said, I could not convince him that Protestant did not teach that a Christian is free to sin.

Are you like that priest, unwilling to try to understand what the other side believes, or are you willing to try to understand what the RCC teaches?

[leftin1991]

Had the Vatican not been pro-Hitler, Italy could never have been allied with Germany. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of the 98-100% influence Roman Catholicism wields on that nation. Italy was a steadfast ally of Germany during both WWI and WW2.

In all honesty, Lutheranism was in no way guiltless either, for Hitler rightly claimed to be carrying out the teachings of Luther concerning the Jews (Luther, by the way, being a Catholic priest till he died!). However, the behind-the-scenes intrigue involved two popes, both Pius XI and especially Pius XII, and allowed the Catholic Church to both install Hitler into power in Germany, enabling him to do their bidding, as well as to "save face" by pretending publicly to oppose Nazism's atrocities and defend the innocent with "heroic" acts. What a deal, eh?

Excerpt from, "The Secret History of Pius XII" -- by John Cornwell:

"This devastating account of the ecclesiastical career of Eugenio Pacelli (1876-1958), who became Pope Pius XII in 1939, is all the more powerful because British historian John Cornwell maintains throughout a measured though strongly critical tone. After World War II, murmurs of Pacelli's callous indifference to the plight of Europe's Jews began to be heard. A noted commentator on Catholic issues, Cornwell began research for this book believing that "if his full story were told, Pius XII's pontificate would be exonerated." Instead, he emerged from the Vatican archives in a state of "moral shock," concluding that Pacelli displayed anti-Semitic tendencies early on and that his drive to promote papal absolutism inexorably led him to collaboration with fascist leaders. Cornwell convincingly depicts Cardinal Secretary of State Pacelli pursuing Vatican diplomatic goals that crippled Germany's large Catholic political party, which might otherwise have stymied Hitler's worst excesses. The author's condemnation has special force because he portrays the admittedly eccentric Pacelli not as a monster but as a symptom of a historic wrong turn in the Catholic Church. He meticulously builds his case for the painful conclusion that "Pacelli's failure to respond to the enormity of the Holocaust was more than a personal failure, it was a failure of the papal office itself and the prevailing culture of Catholicism."

[egk]

Leftin1991,

Your information on John Cornwell is a bit dated

From the Economist,

For God's sake
Dec 9th 2004
From The Economist print edition

JOHN CORNWELL, author of a new life of Pope John Paul II, would have made a fine devil's advocate when the pope's name is one day advanced for sainthood. Unfortunately, he will not be chosen, for John Paul II himself, some two decades ago, scrapped the custom of having a devout Catholic question the virtues of a candidate for beatification or canonisation. The old job of devil's advocate is now, in effect, performed by committee.

Devil's advocates were supposed to be fair-minded, and in the past Mr Cornwell, a prolific writer on Catholic matters, has at times been anything but. As he admits, “Hitler's Pope” (1999), his biography of Pope Pius XII, lacked balance. “I would now argue,” he says, “in the light of the debates and evidence following ‘Hitler's Pope', that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germans.”

The link
http://www.economist.com/books/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3471137

Also, if the Pope had as much influence in Italy as you believe, the Papal States would still be in existence. The Pope opposed the unification of Italy! If the Popes could not stop the unification of Italy and the destruction of the the Papal States, what makes you think they could have stopped Italy from allying with Germany?


EGK

[jason12712]

Luther, by the way, being claimed a heretic and dying as such

[leftin1991]

I am always willing to understand more precisely the RCC's positions on such topics as these. However, the RCC is so doctrinally dysfunctional that there is little information about Rome that I have ever found to be "reassuring." RCC is as much a dreaded villain as she was in the Dark Ages, for by her own admission she never changes!

While Cornwell may have come to acknowledge some room for doubt about Pius' inward motives, that gives me no real reassurance. It simply implies some measure of charity in Cornwell concerning the magnitude of Pius' previously-proven malice.

[egk]

leftin1991

<font color="0000ff">While Cornwell may have come to acknowledge some room for doubt about Pius' inward motives, that gives me no real reassurance. It simply implies some measure of charity in Cornwell concerning the magnitude of Pius' previously-proven malice.</font>

If Pius's crimes have been proven, how do you explain the number of Jews who have praised him for his actions during WWII? How do you explain persons such as Rabbi David Dahlin who recently wrote the book "The Myth of Hitler's Pope?"

EGK

[egk]

leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff"> However, the behind-the-scenes intrigue involved two popes, both Pius XI and especially Pius XII, and allowed the Catholic Church to both install Hitler into power in Germany, enabling him to do their bidding, as well as to "save face" by pretending publicly to oppose Nazism's atrocities and defend the innocent with "heroic" acts. What a deal, eh? </font>

Please provide documentation of how Pius XI and XII and the RCC installed Hitler into power! I have never heard of this, outside of Chick "comics." Why has no one condemning Pius XII mentioned any of this?

EGK

[egk]

leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff"> However, the behind-the-scenes intrigue involved two popes, both Pius XI and especially Pius XII, and allowed the Catholic Church to both install Hitler into power in Germany, enabling him to do their bidding, as well as to "save face" by pretending publicly to oppose Nazism's atrocities and defend the innocent with "heroic" acts. What a deal, eh? </font>

Please provide documentation of how Pius XI and XII and the RCC installed Hitler into power! I have never heard of this, outside of Chick "comics." Why has no one condemning Pius XII mentioned any of this?

EGK

[leftin1991]

Have you never read "Vatican Billions" by Arlo Manhattan? Roman Catholicism is an exceedingly dangerous religious and political machine, and their European wealth, power and influence are surpassed by no one, including the banking cartel, who have always financed both sides of European wars with Catholic money. Admittedly some elements here involve conspiracy and suspicion, and necessarily so because of the nature of the beast, but is it so hard to believe that they lack the capital to conceal their dirty, underhanded dealings? -- i.e., to be able to pay a Jew to write a book exonerating them, and pay (or kill or blackmail) others so they would NOT write! "Money answereth all things." - Solomon

[egk]

Leftin1991

<font color="0000ff">Have you never read "Vatican Billions" by Arlo Manhattan? Roman Catholicism is an exceedingly dangerous religious and political machine, and their European wealth, power and influence are surpassed by no one, including the banking cartel, who have always financed both sides of European wars with Catholic money. Admittedly some elements here involve conspiracy and suspicion, and necessarily so because of the nature of the beast, but is it so hard to believe that they lack the capital to conceal their dirty, underhanded dealings? -- i.e., to be able to pay a Jew to write a book exonerating them, and pay (or kill or blackmail) others so they would NOT write! "Money answereth all things." - Solomon</font>

No I have never heard of this book, let alone read it. I have heard similar accusations against the Jews. If that is the best documentation you can supply, then you haven't convinced me.

Did you believe such things about the RCC before you read the book? The few individuals I met who believed similar things about the Jews, believe the Jews were evil and controlling before they found "proof."

EGK

[egk]

Leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff">RCC may make the claim to Protestants that salvation is by grace through faith, but that is just window dressing because that is not what they truly believe. Were that the case, they would have no "indulgences," "Lent," "rosary," "penance," "prayers for the dead," "priestcraft," etc. </font>

The notes to my Catholic Bible explains that salvation is free gift of God given through faith. Are the readers of Catholic Bibles primarily Protestant?

Ultimately, all those things that you listed are means of grace. God can and does at time work independently of them.

Using your logic, as I understand it, if we are saved by grace, then there is no need for pray, repentance, etc. There is no need for anything, but God's grace. God's grace saves us and it doesn't matter what we do or how we respond. Am I correct in my understanding your position?

BTW I hope to write about the Catholic position of Mary during the next week as time permits.
EGK

EGK

[egk]

Leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff">RCC may make the claim to Protestants that salvation is by grace through faith, but that is just window dressing because that is not what they truly believe. Were that the case, they would have no "indulgences," "Lent," "rosary," "penance," "prayers for the dead," "priestcraft," etc. </font>

The notes to my Catholic Bible explains that salvation is free gift of God given through faith. Are the readers of Catholic Bibles primarily Protestant?

Ultimately, all those things that you listed are means of grace. God can and does at time work independently of them.

Using your logic, as I understand it, if we are saved by grace, then there is no need for pray, repentance, etc. There is no need for anything, but God's grace. God's grace saves us and it doesn't matter what we do or how we respond. Am I correct in my understanding your position?

BTW I hope to write about the Catholic position of Mary during the next week as time permits.
EGK

EGK

[egk]

Leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff">RCC may make the claim to Protestants that salvation is by grace through faith, but that is just window dressing because that is not what they truly believe. Were that the case, they would have no "indulgences," "Lent," "rosary," "penance," "prayers for the dead," "priestcraft," etc. </font>

The notes to my Catholic Bible explains that salvation is free gift of God given through faith. Are the readers of Catholic Bibles primarily Protestant?

Ultimately, all those things that you listed are means of grace. God can and does at time work independently of them.

Using your logic, as I understand it, if we are saved by grace, then there is no need for pray, repentance, etc. There is no need for anything, but God's grace. God's grace saves us and it doesn't matter what we do or how we respond. Am I correct in my understanding your position?

BTW I hope to write about the Catholic position of Mary during the next week as time permits.
EGK

EGK

[egk]

Leftin1991,

<font color="0000ff">RCC may make the claim to Protestants that salvation is by grace through faith, but that is just window dressing because that is not what they truly believe. Were that the case, they would have no "indulgences," "Lent," "rosary," "penance," "prayers for the dead," "priestcraft," etc. </font>

The notes to my Catholic Bible explains that salvation is free gift of God given through faith. Are the readers of Catholic Bibles primarily Protestant?

Ultimately, all those things that you listed are means of grace. God can and does at time work independently of them.

Using your logic, as I understand it, if we are saved by grace, then there is no need for pray, repentance, etc. There is no need for anything, but God's grace. God's grace saves us and it doesn't matter what we do or how we respond. Am I correct in my understanding your position?

BTW I hope to write about the Catholic position of Mary during the next week as time permits.
EGK

EGK

[leftin1991]

I spent two years in Roman Catholic junior high school. I found that while Roman Catholicism appears "righteous" by speaking the truth about many moral issues, they almost always lie about spiritual things, and I therefore can find no reason to trust that they are honest about their own actions, especially in light of their appalling mayhem and genocide during the Inquisition. And certainly not about the way they use their money!

Their intolerant policies on freedom of religion and liberty of conscience still stand! As they have shown at times and places when they have been in full control, Catholicism is at its core an evil, frightening, greedy, controlling, murderous religiopolitical entity.

My understanding of "grace" is not as you define it, as I do not define it as 'divine, unmerited favor,' but I additionally believe it is 'divine influence upon the heart,' i.e., God's Spirit energizing us and causing us to respond and do His will.

[leftin1991]

I spent two years in Roman Catholic junior high school. I found that while Roman Catholicism appears "righteous" by boldly speaking the truth about a few moral issues, they almost always lie about spiritual things, and I therefore can find no reason to trust that they are honest about their own actions, especially in light of their appalling mayhem and genocide during the Inquisition. And certainly not about the way they use their money!

Their intolerant policies on freedom of religion and liberty of conscience still stand! As they have shown at times and places when they have been in full control, Catholicism is at its core an evil, frightening, greedy, controlling, murderous religiopolitical entity.

My understanding of "grace" is not as commonly defined, 'divine, unmerited favor,' but I additionally believe it is 'divine influence upon the heart,' i.e., God's Spirit energizing us and causing us to respond and do His will.

[thekingsent1_again]

Leftin

I will guarantee you 3 things, that are a fact.
1) The apperitions of mother mary is Satan in disguise.
2) The Catholic church is an apostate church that derives its power from Satan himself.
3) That the Catholic church is the mother of harlots in revelations.

You can try to explain to those that are joined to this church these above stated facts but it is highly unlikely that you will ever get anywhere.
An example......
My Grandmother gave my Dad a teaspoon of flax seed oil every time he had a sore throat, just like her Mother did for her. Then my Mother did the same to me.
They believed that this remedy would help their ills and just because someone says to them that it does not work they will not believe them.
Instead of doing the same to my children, I study flax seed oil to see if it works.
I find that flax seed oil has no benefits and even find out that it contains traces of poison.
I can tell that to my Mother but she may still disbelieve me because she will refuse the truth and hold on to the traditon that she was taught.
Just the same.....You cannot tell someone the truth if they will not accept it. You will simply be spinning your wheels even though you have proof that their "group" is evil.
Know what I mean?

[jason12712]

PRO610, you wrote:
I think you need to go back and re-read my post brother.
My intention was not to upset you,I apologize it came off that way.
My only point was to show you that prayers to Mary and Saints are Biblical.

Do you believe Mary is in heaven?
If you do you should have no problem understanding what was written in my post

Regards


In regard to Mary, the mother of Jesus, the wife of Joseph, and the mother of Jude, James, among others, I can not place her in heaven or hell, though it is believed she went to heaven, yet she had as much as need for a saviour (her son Jesus) as you and I. In regards of praying to Mary or any saint, I believe in prayers for the saints and for unbelievers, but any prayer made to saints (as if by their power or holiness anything divine is done) is a prayer to an idol, catching the person praying in the snare of idolatry. So help me God

[jason12712]

pro610, you worte
One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The word I would use for praying to dead saints that have gone on to be with the Lord, is not "useless" but pagan.

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

If worshipping an angel or praying to an angel is not allowed, than who says praying TO and worshipping dead saints is allowed.

[pro610]

Jason,
Scripture says we were "all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Christians are one body which is not divided by death or anything else (Rom 8:38-39). Christians in heaven are still members of that body of Christ? We are invited to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). I honour those heroes and I feel a unity with them.

Revelation opens with this verse...

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John...

God used an angel, and did not do it himself? The angel didn't say "hey, don't talk to me, talk to God alone." I suggest that God uses servants. They are servants who know a lot more than us humans on earth. This takes nothing away from God. It simply reflects the overabundance of his grace. I suggest that the communication John had with the angel was what we may call "prayer."

The passage supports the catholic viewpoint on the role of heavenly servants rather than the contrary position held by some non-denominationalists.

John's communication with his "fellow servant" the angel did not mean that they were peers. In an army, a "private" is not a peer with a "corporal" even though the corporal is a "fellow soldier." There is a hierarchy in the military and also in heaven. (archangels, angels, seraphim, cherubim, etc) And at the bottom of this hierarchy are us lowly fellow servants on earth. Most evangelical theologians readily preach this hierarchy in heaven and we Catholics think there is nothing whatever unscriptural about communicating with heavenly creatures. Apparently, John, Mary, Zachariah and a ton of other holy servants had no problem with it either. The Bible says so.

God commissioned us to fight the spiritual battle on earth. Catholics don't think he'll decommission us when we get to heaven.

[arron]

praying to DEAD saints is pagan, witchcraft and stupid. when a pesron is saved he or she becomes a saint right then. my wife who has passed away is alive with THE LORD. i do not pray to her or talk to her. if your "theroy is correct i culd just alk to her instead of JESUS,... NO... never...i will speak TO JEUS HE IS MY ONLY ONLY ONLY HOPE.

[apilgrims]

Dear Arron, I am so sorry for your loss, and so glad for your deep faith in Christ's saving power.
I'm wondering something, though, and I ask this not in a spirit of contention I PROMISE, but just because I fear you're missing out on this one amazing aspect of God's goodness.

When your dear wife was alive here on earth, it wasn't an affront to Christ to talk to her. Why would it offend Christ for you to send a loving message, through Him, to her in His tender care?
I honestly do NOT want to cause you pain or disrespect your point of view, so don't answer if you choose not to. We can wrangle about all kinds of things, but this is very close to home-- so please only answer if you believe in my good will towards you.
Lovingly,
Nancy

[arron]

i di not say i did not ask CHRIST to tell her things, for i do, but i dont talk to her as she is with THE LORD. she has no knowledge of the things here on earth as all things have been passed away. she is at resat with THE LORD.
i do not pray to her as catholics do to the saints.

[arron]

i di not say i did not ask CHRIST to tell her things, for i do, but i dont talk to her as she is with THE LORD. she has no knowledge of the things here on earth as all things have been passed away. she is at resat with THE LORD.
i do not pray to her as catholics do to the saints.

[apilgrims]

Arron- I do thank you for taking my question in the right spirit. I'm so glad you have that consolation. I just wanted to point out that that is the EXACT same way Catholics talk to the saints- through Jesus Christ! All things are done in His Name- or should be. Obviously, flawed people (and who isn't) can and have acted in error and spoken in error about speaking to the saints. But the teaching of the Catholic Church is that we do ALL things in Christ who strengthens us. If we ask a saint to pray for us, we are asking though Christ. Why not just ask Christ? Of course we do. But Christ Himself told us to pray for each other: MT 5:44 "But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you", and He makes that possible even after death, so thoroughly has He conquered death and sin. As long as we do what He commands and all in His Name, we are safe. But that goes for all of life, don't you think so? (I know you do, that's just a rhetorical question.) God bless and keep you this day.

[jason12712]

God commissioned us to fight the spiritual battle on earth. Catholics don't think he'll decommission us when we get to heaven.= man-made

Hebrews 4
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hebrews 4:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

biblically, when we go to be with the Lord, we have ceased from our labors as he has. as is written above, let us therefore fear, lest we fall short of entering His rest.

[leftin1991]

Mary is not in heaven, nor has she ever been there! She sleeps in the dust of the earth with all O.T. and N.T. saints, awaiting the hope of the resurrection. But her next conscious moment will be in the presence of the LORD.

[jason12712]

i don't think that we sleep after death. remember Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? if we don't go to heaven than isn't there a place of comfort after death??? just an idea to bounce.

[apilgrims]

Dear Jason-
But we're not "decommissioned" (I love that term http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif) once we're in Heaven-- at least I hope not! John clearly sees the saints praying and adoring in Heaven: "And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." Revelation 5:8
And Christ Himself points out that the good and faithful servant will be "in charge of many things" after entering into the joy of the Lord.
"His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Matthew 25:23

And that is an interesting idea of yours about Lazarus. Comments, anyone?

[arron]

my wife is not in the grave, her body is but she is with THE LORD i am not looking to lie in the grave, but to be with THE LORD. all the saved are with or will be with THE LORD.

[arron]

lazuras was... was in the bosem of abraham but now that paridise is moved he is with THE LORD.

[apilgrims]

I agree with you on these two important points, Arron!
Good night all- God bless you.

[leftin1991]

There is no consciousness after death, before the resurrection. That is the basis of spiritism, and yet it is the common teaching of Christianity too.

[thekingsent1_again]

leftin....
your first post tells it all.

The opposite IS the opposite!

[leftin1991]

Y Thnx king -- I found that little gem 23 years ago, Battle Cry needs to reprint it!

We have so many beliefs in common, I would like you to E-mail me: tracts@juno.com (I also post as granite)