JESUS is Anti Denomination thus Against the Catholic church

[trsrinheaven]

There are many that realize the Biblical Jesus was never pro organized denomiations or religion. Neither were any of his disciples.

You don't come to relationship with God by joining some local church or denomination.

According to Jesus one only becomes a child of God by being "born again" spiritually from the Holy Spirit by faith in Gods grace according to Jesus not by joining some made up denomination. Salvation is open to all by faith from the heart, NOT through some priest or performance, or works.

Jesus was against the pharisees and their promoting of following perfomance of physical works to gain salvation. Jesus and Paul later only taught salvation by faith in Gods grace, "not of works lest anyone could boast of their own works"...thus Jesus' sacrifice was in vain.

ROME'S SALAVATION THROUGH WORKS of BAPTISM

Under the rubric of "interrelated questions" as if it were a subordinate matter and not effecting justification, is also the mention of baptismal regeneration. RC teaching on baptismal regeneration is contrary to Scripture.
Rome teaches, "Baptism, the gate to the sacraments, necessary for salvation in fact or at least in intention, by which men and women are freed from their sins, are reborn as children of God..."(14) Rome also officially teaches that "...The [Roman Catholic] Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude;"(15) that "By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin;(16) and that "...The sheer gratuitiousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth."(17) According to the Bible, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17). To propound that new birth is through the application of a physical sacrament is to negate the Gospel of grace alone through faith alone.

Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

God made man for relationship.
We are not to go through anyone else to get to God.
Jesus taught REALATIONSHIP. The whole Bible is about relationship with God.
Not watered down or through some priest, joining some church or vain repetition of some prayer to Mary.

[pro610]

Trsrinheaven,
Here is a good read
http://www.iwu.edu/~religion/ejcm/Gieschen.htm

Enjoy.

[ezekiel_37]

It is clear that in Rev when Christ addresses the churches, that there are going to be some people that 'get it' even in those 5 churches that Jesus found fault in.

and that includes the RCC

[timoriateos]

Dear Catholic friends:
I'd like to start by greeting you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom is ALL honor, power, and glory. I am new to this forum, and I just started reviewing a few of the comments that have been posted here on this particular thread. I realize they are old, but I still think that the subject merits further discussion.
First of all, I want to say, as a sinner who has been saved by God's grace, that God loves every Catholic the same way He loves me, but that GOD ABHORS the DOCTRINE that the RCC preaches in a subtle manner because it contradicts the beautiful gospel which he has layed out for us. A few of the Satanic teachings are:

Prayer to the saints
Mary is the mediator, and "savior"
Eternal Insecurity (They don't know when they die if they are saved)
Salvation by works (new-born water baptism, obedience to the Church, and the keeping of the "sacraments")
Catholic Mass (The killing of "jesus" every time they celebrate mass)
Satanic Apparitions of "mary" approved by the RCC
The Pope's infalibilty
The Pope is the head of God's Church (Peter)
Bishops are not approved of God (They are not married)

Other unbiblical beliefs:

Mary's perpetual virginity
Mary's immaculate conception
Mary's Assumption into Heaven
Mary Mother of GOD!

[pro610]

timoria,
Welcome Dear Brother/Sister!

Did you come to these assumptions on your own or has someone else told you these things?

Be honest.God will no if your telling the truth.


Here is a few questions for you...

What came first the Catholic Church or the Bible?

What Church decided Bible Canon and who was the first Saint to list the first books of the New Testament?

Do you know what Christians practiced and believed on the topics you posted as "Unbiblical" for over 1500 years of Christianity.

Take your time.

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

[pro610]

Corrected version

timoria,
Welcome Dear Brother/Sister!

Did you come to these assumptions on your own or has someone else told you these things?

Be honest.God will "know" if your telling the truth.


Here is a few questions for you...

What came first the Catholic Church or the Bible?

What Church decided Bible Canon and who was the first Saint to list the first books of the New Testament?

Do you know what Christians practiced and believed on the topics you posted as "Unbiblical" for over 1500 years of Christianity.

Take your time.

I wish you a Blessed Evening!

[timoriateos]

Ps 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee" -Thanks to Rome David new the word of God?

Ps 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me. - God's word is living. "Bible" only means collection of books. His word is alive without a "written" collection because:

Ps 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is firmly fixed in the heavens.

PS 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Ps 100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations. - YES!

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. - AMEN

This is why a person who has never heard about Jesus Chirst, who has never read the bible or ever been exposed to Christianity or a "written" collection of books THAT ARE HIS words can be saved.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. - IF this is true then that would mean that ONLY where there is a "written" collection can people be saved? NO! Thank GOD for HIS WORD is available not only in the BIBLE, because HIS WORD is alive!}

[timoriateos]

Therefore we can conclude from GOD's WORD that the Bible DOES NOT belong to RCC. His word is living and endures forever from generation to generation

[timoriateos]

pro610,

I came to these conclusions from God's word, because I am NOT willing to live other people's faith (I can't afford to), only that which is instructed to me by GOD. RCC's doctrine is SATANIC!
It is very ironic that the Bible, which the RCC claims that thanks to them we have it, contradicts RCC's SATANIC doctrine.

[pro610]

timoria

These are the facts...

In 360 AD The Council of Laodicea(Everyone involved was Catholic) produced a list of books of the Old Testament Canon

Pope Damasus I along with Saint Athanasius,Jerome and others during Council of Rome, in 382, gave us the complete list of the books of the Bible, including the New Testament.

Guess what? They all were Catholic!

The teachings of the Catholic Church came to you through Protestants and you discovered that the Bible IS REALLY the Word of God. You didn't come to that conclusion yourself, thus, the Bible is not self-authenticating. You accepted the witness of those who told you, heard their preaching, saw their witness and life style, and accepted what they claimed. That is HOW we know the Bible is the Word of God, not by opening it off the library shelf and reading it!

There was no canon of scripture in the early Church, there was no Bible. It was the Church,her leadership, faithful people guided by the authority of the Spirit of Truth which discovered the books inspired by God in their writing.


You said
""RCC's doctrine is SATANIC!""

You should be carful.

Do you realize that the Divinty of Christ is Catholic Doctrine from the council of Nicea in 325 AD?

Does that mean that the Church DID NOT already believe this? Of course it did! Jesus was worshiped during the liturgy. People prayed to Him during their daily prayers and through their actions. The Church already KNEW that Jesus was God - the Church DEFINES that He was God infallibly based on the guidance of the Spirit ALREADY AT WORK in the Church. The Church defines dogma to authoritative say what we believe, just like it did with the contents of Scripture. The Church already had a good idea of what it was, but now, they had an authoritative decision.


I suggest you go to this thread starting with Sept 18 date

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/32966.html?1190891534

Excerpt
The Bible and the Church cannot be separated. Either both are false or both are true.

During the first 1,000 years, almost all Christians didn’t need the Bible. They received all the scriptures through the “Church “(Gospel readings, Epistle readings, OT readings), along with “commentaries” (homilies).

Those churches were part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, not some disconnected churches of independent or non-Apostolic origin. In fact very few individual churches proposed any canons. The leader among those who did was St. Athanasius, who presented the first New testament canon.

It was the knowledge of the Church, and the authority to discern the inspired from the profane, that allowed the Church fathers to put together a canon .


I pray for you to see the truth

[pro610]

timoria,

Here is what Martin Luther the protestant refomer
said.....

"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS


Luther on the Blessed Mother

"The great thing is none other than that she became the Mother of God; in which process so many and such great gifts were bestowed upon her that no one is able to comprehend them. Thereupon follows all honor, all blessedness, and the fact that in the whole race of men only one person is above all the rest, one to whom no one else is equal. For that reason her dignity is crowded into a single phrase when we call her the Mother of God; no one can say greater things of her or to her, even if he had as many tongues as leaves and blades of grass, as the stars in heaven and sands on the seashore. It must also be meditated in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God."
Marin Luther- Die Erklarung des Magnificat - 1521.


I have writings from other reformers if you would like to see them?

[timoriateos]

pro16,
I appreciate you sharing your beliefs and for your sincere response. However, I believe you are sincerely wrong. Before 360AD there was an abundance of Greek manuscripts of the Gospel accounts, as well as the Epistles, which are in no way, shape or form, Catholic, for if they were they would contain Catholic doctrine AND THEY DO NOT!
These writings would have endured till today, just the same way Homer's Illiads have survived all these centuries! Because of their abundance.
The fact that a group of Catholics got together in 360AD to "canonize" scripture does not mean that the scripture is now valid. Who are they to APPROVE God's word?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

I would much rather believe the Apostle Paul when he wrote:

2Ti 3:16-17 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

THE AUTHORSHIP BELONGS TO GOD!

[timoriateos]

Pro16,

Thanks for quoting Luther for me. However, his beliefs are of no significance to me. I would much rather belief what God's word has to say. I am not a "reformer" or a "protestant".

The Roman Catholic Church is NOT The Church which is Christ's Body, for the Church which He builds has Jesus Christ as the Head, not the Apostle Peter, or any Pope!

[pro610]

Timor
I never said there was no “Scriptures” before 360 Ad. There was no Bible before 360 Ad.
Traditions of the Apostles came first, the Scriptures came next. God gave His Gospel orally first. The Apostles gave it to others orally first. The Scriptures didn’t come until AT LEAST ten years later, if we believe that an Aramaic version of Matthew was written in the early 40’s. Thus, the first ten years at least saw Christianity spread without any Gospel writings, any Epistles, etc. Later, when these same men of God wrote letters and the narratives of the Gospels, they naturally taught the SAME thing that they taught orally earlier to others. Thus, the oral teachings preceded the written ones, and the written ones did not overturn the oral ones. Nor does it say anywhere that oral teachings are encapsulated completely within the Scriptures. This is assumption by anti Catholics that is proven incorrect based on the writings of the first Christians.

There was NOT an ABUNDANCE of Scripture(as you guessed) before 360 AD that made it into the Bible
There was also many Gnostic Scriptures out there as well

You need to realize that it took many years to make hand written copies,let alone the fact that they were in hiding and in fear of constant persecution

Like it or NOT you have to rely on the Catholic Church to verify the Bible

SCRIPTURE WAS written for the community, the Church. Was the Scripture EVER given to individuals ? Did God hand out scrolls to everyone? No, God gave His Word to particular men and women, who shared it with the community at large. This was written down and shared with the future communities.
Even when we had full Bible Canon it was NOT EVER shown as something given to each individual of the community. If you want to follow how the early Church did things,Then you would be doing things that were Catholic, and you would comply with the leaders of the community.
I am sure you have read the Acts of the Apostles?

By reading the bible without any verification, you might as well be in the same category as the Muslims and Mormons, who “get a feeling in their bosom” to “know” they are reading the Word of God. They don’t think they need outside verification, either. However, those of us who demand it CAN SAY that the Koran and the Book of Mormon is NOT the Word of God. God gave us intellect to use it. We are to test all things. We are to also test to ensure that we DO have the Word of God. We are told not to believe everything we hear. We are to test their word. What is wrong with that?

We Have the writings from even the Early Christians who were direct Disciples of the Apostles-They practiced Catholicism

Here is an example of their believing Eucharist is LITERALLY Christ

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Here is another FACT for you.
EVERY SINGLE Early Church Father believed that Eucharist is LITERALLY Jesus Christ -body ,blood,soul and divinity.
Every Church Father and Saint!There is not even a SINGLE exception. NOT even one of them denied this.

This went virtually unchallenged until the reformation 1500 years later

[trsrinheaven]

pro610.
You avoid and fail to answer and can't answer because you are afraid to admit and know the crazy catholic man made inventions veer away from and are not in the Bible.
You also do not know the Bible.

As usual true to your style and form you do not answer the crazy unscriptural and dangerous man made inventions made up by the catholic church cult that are not in the Bible.

You do not read your own catholic church doctrine.
The catholic church teaches baby baptism, fulfilling what they call 7 sacraments as the means to salvation.(Yet in the Bible Jesus only instituted (2) two - 1. baptism and 2.the Lords Supper).

You still give no Biblical reference or proof what the Bible says for the catholic church's non Biblical inventions
- your own good works versus salvation by Jesus sacrifice free grace and faith,
-Confession of sins to a priest,
-confirmation,
-baby baptism,
-prayers for the dead,
-latin language of prayer and worship,
-forbidding to eat meat and fasting on Fridays
-celebacy of priests and nuns
-the rosary and other vain nonBible repetitions
-indulgences-paying money for forgivenenss
-forbidding the communion cup to the laity
-purgatory
-worship of Mary
-praying to Mary and dead saints
-holy water
-canonization
-immaculate conception of the virgin Mary
-adding books to the Bible not recognized by the original Jerusalem church(Rev 22:8-9)
-Pope infallibility ....
and hundreds of other inventions and UNSCRIPTURAL works and garbage pushed by the catholic church cult that is not anywhere in the Bible..
Why? Because there is none.
Instead the Bible shows all of these and more as corrupt evils and clearly teaches against them.

This defines the catholic church as a corrupt cult. The rest of the frauds that the catholic church invented and perpetuates to try and gain credibility continue today.

PS Drop all the sainthood and calling someone saint manure. All believers are called saints by Paul and Peter in the Biblical epistles.
Eph 2 For it is by grace we are saved and <u>NOT BY WORKS</u> Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we would be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 3 "For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [[a]not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
21But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
24[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor free gift and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
28For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds and performace observance of good works. [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]" Romans 3

[timoriateos]

Pro610,

I don't know why you keep quoting people that have no <u>INSPIRATION FROM GOD</u>
Listen to what the Apostle Paul said:

Ac 20:29-32 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

and John:

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

People had already began twisting truth back then! You can keep quoting stuff from the 1st century, but if it is contrary to GOD's inspired Word then it has no value!

[pro610]

Timoria said...
"I don't know why you keep quoting people that have no INSPIRATION FROM GOD "

Dear Friend, These people WERE inspired by GOD.
Many of them were involved in Bible Canon.

If you say they were not inspired by God than niether is your Bible. How would you know that what went into Bible Canon is not gnostic then?

The scriptures did not come with autographs on them!You rely on the witness of the early church fathers (that you call not inspired) to tell you they are authentic

You can't begin a premise "this book is from God", and then point to a word within it and say "this proves it - the verse here claims that it is God's Word". First of all, the Scriptures were not written as one book, but as individual letters. Secondly, ANYONE can write a book and put within it "Thus says God". Does that prove it is really the Word of God?
I am sorry, but the Bible is not self-authenticating. We don't even know who wrote large portions of the NT. How do we know it is not forgeries? No, we rely on those first witnesses(the Early Church Fathers), empowered by God. By their life, we know they were honest and really witnesses Christ's glorious Body and His divine teachings. Those who heard their teachings and witnessed their life testified to them, and so forth. Thus, we know that the Scripture is from God.

Your whole argument is based on a circular argument... "The bible is the Word of God" Why? The typical response is usually... "Because the Word of God is found within the Bible"... Until you move outside of that circle, you aren't going to prove anything. I would be interested to know how you would prove that the Bible is God's Word with a Muslim or a non-Christian, using no outside evidence.

By calling the early Church fathers not inspired by God ,You are basing your beliefs on a book that you can't even prove is God's Word, as opposed to the Gnostics version, or Marcion's version, or the Koran, or...and so on.

Scripture was PART of the Tradition given by the Apostles. Thus, the Scripture did not "form" the Tradition. Apostolic teachings were given in both forms. The Early Christians relied on their priests and deacons and so forth to teach them the faith. Many men expounded on the faith in what we now call "the Church Fathers". All of this is interpretation of the Apostolic Teachings, both oral and written, that followed from the Apostles themselves.
Scripture was a PART of this revelation given to us by the Apostles. They did not set out to write a systematic theology book. They were writing letters to communities that had requested pastoral help. "What should we do about this man who took his father's wife for a lover?" (1 Cor 5). "What do we do about the Jewish dietary laws?" And so forth. Paul was not intending to write a treatise on faith. Later Christians treasured these writings, no matter how incomplete or confusing they sometimes appear to the reader. They came from the Apostles' hands! They heard the words of God themselves! Thus, you need to approach Scripture a bit differently then some all-encompassing book that Christianity GREW OUT OF! It was the other way around! Christianity produced the Bible through inspiration of God

Christ established one voice, one Church that is visible, first with the visible apostles, and then, their visible successors, the bishops of the visible churches. The Catholic Church is the Church of the Incarnation - as Jesus was visible, so is His Church. The Apostolic Churches, to include the Eastern Orthodox, are truly Churches established by Christ, plainly visible for all of mankind to know the truth that God wants all men to possess.

I wish you a Blessed day!

[timoriateos]

Pro160,

you said: "Dear Friend, These people WERE inspired by GOD."

Then maybe you can explain <u>why does their doctrine contradict Mathew's, Mark's, Luke's, John's, Paul's, Peter's, James'...?</u>
<u>-Because they were not inspired in their writtings</u>

Another question for you: Why do you think that for 1500 years the RCC penalized Bible translations so that people would be able to read in their own language? Because by doing that they tried to keep control, by hiding WHAT THEY KNEW would expose their SATANIC doctrine!
Even to this date the RCC says that we can't base our beliefs with Sola Scriptura. Instead they believe in Sola Ecclesia "RCC determines what the Bible says for the millions of Catholics throughout the world".

They are afraid of people that are like the Bereans:
<u>Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.</u>

I can prove that the Bible is the word of God because every book beautifully harmonizes with the rest of the books. This is because the Bible is authored by God. I can myself be like the Bereans and see if these books are in fact the Word of God by testing scripture against scripture. This is a good acid test!

Guess what will happen if I compare Scripture with Catholic Doctrine. IT WILL FAIL EVERY TIME

[trsrinheaven]

pro666,

"All Scripture is God-breathed, given by His inspiration and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action." 2 Tim 3:16


The Catholic Church is the 2nd largest cult organization of the eventual anti-Christ embracing political power over true salvation, true scripture and Holy Spirit power.

PS How is it in Schenectady, New York? What country are you from?

[pro610]

TRS,
PS- How is it in Orland Park Illinois?

Here is a task for you.

Show "Christian" writings that do not support the seven SACRAMENTS for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

Good luck TRYING to find them!

When tour finished ,are you going to tell us all that there were no REAL Christians until the Reformation or even after that?


Christianity is not a 200,300 or 500 year old religion of confusion with over 35,000(and growing) different non denominational and various protestant sects all saying that only they know the ONLY truth.

All these various non denominations,denominations and sects claim "The Holy Spirit told them" Trouble is, there is only one truth and it should concern you that you have NO historical writings to back up this IDEA you have"that the Holy Spirit told you" .

There is NOT 35,000 differnt TRUTHS
There is only one TRUTH and ONE Holy Spirit!


I pray for your mind to be healed

[pro610]

Timor said....

""I can prove that the Bible is the word of God because every book beautifully harmonizes with the rest of the books. This is because the Bible is authored by God. I can myself be like the Bereans and see if these books are in fact the Word of God by testing scripture against scripture. This is a good acid test! ""


Ever hear of Scripture typology? It is one of the ways the Early Church Fathers KNEW what books belong in the Bible.


The Old Testament is Fulfilled in the New Testament

Here is some examples I think you might agree with concerning messianic prophecies fulfilled

Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus' garments among them.

Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus' garments.

Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.


Do you have a problem with any of these so far?

I will wait for your response

[timoriateos]

pro160,

The reason why there are no "Christian" writtings that oppose or do not support the seven "Sacraments" for the first 1500 years is because it was prohibited and penalized by the RCC to write or preach anything contrary to the RCC doctrine, even if proved from Scripture. Have you forgotten about the Inquisitions?

Yes, there were Christians for the first 1500 years the same way there are today. Everyone who has accepted God's precious gift of salvation is saved EVEN catholics.

Not every member of a religious instituion (aka denomination) will be saved

<u>EVERY ONE WHO IS A MEMBER OF GOD'S CHURCH (JESUS CHRIST BEING THE HEAD) WILL BE SAVED</u>

GOD has not called me to be a Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Eastern Orthodox...

<u>HE HAS CALLED ME TO HIMSELF</u>

Joh 10:9 I am the door: <u>by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved</u>, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: <u>no man cometh unto the Father, but by me</u>

Isa 1:18 <u>Come now</u>, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Mt 11:28 <u>Come unto me</u>, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

[timoriateos]

Please keep going...

[timoriateos]

“Let us pray that each one of us, looking to the Lord Jesus, meek and humble of heart, will recognize that even men of the church, in the name of faith and morals, have sometimes used methods not in keeping with the Gospel in the solemn duty of defending the truth.” – Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Jubilee Request for Forgiveness, March 12, 2000

<u>WHERE THESE MEN INSPIRED BY GOD?</u>

[timoriateos]

Some of the devices and inventions used to torture the “heresy” out of those rejecting the Catholic Church’s authority included “The Iron Maiden,” “Hanging Cages,” “The Judas Cradle,” “Skinning the Cat,” “The Head Crusher,” “The Heretic’s Fork,” “The Barrel Pillory,” “The Rack,” “The Knee Splitter,” “The Breast Ripper,” and other devices too numerous to mention or too heinous to describe in any detail. <u>The inquisitor was commissioned directly by the pope and acted directly on his behalf - Jerry Kaifets</u>
<u>WERE THESE METHODS INSPIRED BY GOD?</u>

[pro610]

Timor said

""The reason why there are no "Christian" writtings that oppose or do not support the seven "Sacraments" for the first 1500 years is because it was prohibited and penalized by the RCC to write or preach anything contrary ""

You are failing to recognize that sacremental teaching existed in the first 300 plus hundread years when Christians were being persecuted and brutally killed. The Catholic Church had NO Power at all..

Here is more typology for you concerning the coming of our Lord this time

Isaiah 7:14 - He will be born of a young virgin woman - Matt. 1:18, 24-25; Luke 1:26-35 - Jesus was born of the young virgin Mary.

Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 - a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah - Mattt. 1:1-2, Luke 3:23,33 - Jesus is from the line of Judah.

Deut. 18:18 - He will be raised up as a prophet - Matt. 21:11, Luke 7:16; John 6:14; 7:40 - Jesus is identified as this prophet.

Psalm 2:6 - He will be a King - Matt. 21:5; John 18:36-37 - Jesus is this King.

Psalm 2:7 - you are my Son, today I have begotten you - Matt. 3:17; Acts 13:33 - God the Father said this about Jesus the Son.

Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 - He will be hated without a cause - John 15:25 - Jesus was hated without a cause.

Psalm 69:9 - zeal for thy house has consumed me - John 2:16-17 - zeal consumed Jesus as He drove out the traders.

Psalm 78:2 - He will speak in parables - Matt. 13:34-35 - Jesus spoke in parables.

Psalm 110:1; Jer. 23:6 - He will be called Lord - Matt. 22:43-45; Luke 2:11; Heb. 1:10 - Jesus is called Lord by the Lord.

Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 - He will be the stone rejected by the builders - Acts 4:10-11; Rom. 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:7-8 - Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders.

Psalm 118:26; Hag.2:7-9; Mal. 3:1 - He will come to the Temple - Matt. 21:12; John 2:13-17 - Jesus so came to the Temple.

Psalm 132:11; Jer. 23:5 - He, the king, shall come from the House of David - Matt. 1:1; Luke 3:23,31 - Jesus is the son of David.

Isaiah 6:9-10 - they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive - Matt. 13:14-15; John 12:38-41 - this is why Jesus used parables.

Zech. 9:9 - He will triumphantly enter Jerusalem on an aess - Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:35-38; John 12:14-17 - Jesus so entered Jerusalem.

Mic. 5:2 - Israel's ruler shall come from Bethlehem - Matt. 2:1,4-8; Luke 2:4-7 - Jesus was born in Bethlehem.


Want to see more?

[timoriateos]

You are just proving my point. The harmony of the scriptures....?!!

[timoriateos]

pro610 said "You are failing to recognize that sacremental teaching existed in the first 300 plus hundread years when Christians were being persecuted and brutally killed. The Catholic Church had NO Power at all."- Until it became a giant World-Religious, Power-Hungry government - THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

I already proved from scripture that there were Christians that had deveated from true doctrine....But here it is again:

Eph 4:14-15 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things <u>into Him who is the head--Christ--</u>

<u>TYPO? NO! The Pope is the Head of the Catholic Church</u>

[pro610]

Now lets turn to the Blessed Mother

Jesus is called the New Adam (1Cor 15:45).
.

Mary is the New Eve

Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary

Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42

There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34

There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35

There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38

A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17

There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38

There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38

There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34

Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28

She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15

Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25

An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9

Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7

Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5

Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34

The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27

Just as we all physically come from Adam and Eve
All those that abide in Christ are Spirtually reborn in Christ Our Redeemer

Mary therfore is "The NEW EVE" and the Spiritual Mother of all who Christ redeems

There is much more..The writings of the Church fathers of course agree with all this typology I am showing you

Do want to see?

[timoriateos]

Jesus is called the New Adam (1Cor 15:45).
TRUE THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS!
Mary is the New Eve
SHOW ME A VERSE THAT CLEARLY STATES THAT JUST LIKE IN 1Cor 15:45 - YOU'LL LOOK FOR IT FOREVER!
Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary

Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42
HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THAT CONCLUSION FROM THOSE VERSES? MARY WAS A SINNER:

Lu 1:46-48 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced <u>in God my Savior For He has regarded the lowly state</u> of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
HERE IS ANOTHER VIRGIN:2Sa 13:2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her" DOES THAT PROVE ANYTHING?

There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35 <u>???????!!!!!!)</u>

There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH MARY! PLEASE!

I don't have to keep going! You twist scripture after scripture!

MARY WAS A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR!

[timoriateos]

CATHOLIC DOCTRINE IS SATANIC BECAUSE IT MIXES TRUTH WITH ERROR. THIS IS CALLED ADULTERY/FORNICATION:

Re 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

SATAN has done this from the beginning:

Ge 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.(FALSE) "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened(TRUE), and you will be like God(FALSE), knowing good and evil(TRUE)."

[pro610]

I have a minute here..
You said...
""Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42
HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THAT CONCLUSION FROM THOSE VERSES? MARY WAS A SINNER: ""

The Bible you are using has been changed
You need to go to the Greek meaning


Luke 1:28 Uses the unique word “Kecharitomene" to describe Mary,s function,essence and being
The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by the majority of Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.

Kecharitomene (Luke 1:28), is Mary,s purpose ,it is Her essence and being in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Father. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Holy Spirit. As the mother of the Son (Luke 1:31), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the ‘woman’ of the Son. The virgin from Nazareth, clearly then, is “woman” to all the three divine Persons who is GOD. She is aptly the ‘blessed among women’ (Luke 1:42). The Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman” of GOD. The Son of Man never called her “mother”, not even once while He interacted with humans, because it will not be in keeping with His divinity or with the Oneness and Indivisibility of the Holy Trinity. The virgin from Nazareth is not the mother of the Holy Spirit and she, obviously, is not the mother of the Father

Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
This describes her very essence and being.
Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection

[timoriateos]

THE RCC BIBLE SAYS:

And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
<u>my spirit rejoices in God my savior.</u>
For he has looked upon <u>his handmaid's lowliness</u>; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

WHAT A TREMENDOUS FEELING THIS MUST HAVE BEEN FOR A WOMAN WHO WAS A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR! THE JEWS WERE WAITING FOR THE MESSIAH AND SHE WAS GOING TO DELIVER HIM TO THIS WORLD! YES, SHE WAS BLESSED! YES SHE RECEIVED GRACE (FAVOUR) FROM GOD!

[timoriateos]

<u>BUT SHE NEEDED A SAVIOR BECAUSE SHE NEEDED TO BE SAVED FROM HER SINS!</u>

Isa 53:6 <u>All we</u> like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity <u>of us all</u>. --- EVEN THE INIQUITY OF MARY

Ro 3:10 <u>As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one</u> --- MARY IS NO EXCEPTION

Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, <u>because all sinned</u> ---EVEN MARY

[timoriateos]

Eph 1:5-6 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein <u>he hath made us accepted in the beloved.</u>

<u>WOW EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD FEEL SPECIAL!!!</u>

[pro610]

Dear timor

Of course Mary need a Saviour. We don't deny that!

Christ granted Mary the Fullness of Grace because She was to be physically joined with God so that Christ could enter the world.

Why would you think Jesus would enter the world through a sinful creature?


Scripture tells us that God will NOT join Himself with anything defiled

""Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin. For the holy spirit of discipline flees deceit and withdraws from senseless counsels; and when injustice occurs it is rebuked""
(Wis 1:4-5,)

""Lo, the hand of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
Rather, it is your crimes that separate you from your God, It is your sins that make him hide his face so that he will not hear you.
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt; Your lips speak falsehood, and your tongue utters deceit.
No one brings suit justly, no one pleads truthfully; They trust in emptiness and tell
lies; they conceive mischief and bring forth malice""
(Isa 59:1-4)



The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom.

The Early Christians saw this as well...

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

They KNEW she was the NEw Eve as well...

For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).

[pro610]

Mary also fulfills prophecey as the Ark of the NEW covenant

Here is more typology of Old Testament Ark “verses” New Testament Mary who is the “Immaculate” Ark of the NEW COVENANT

A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)

Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)

King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)

The Early Christians saw this too.
Some examples....

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

[timoriateos]

<u>YET AGAIN DO YOU REPEAT THE DOCTRINE WHICH YOU'VE BEEN TAUGHT WHICH IS SATANIC</u>

THIS IS WHAT THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS A TYPE OF:

Heb 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary.
2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary;
3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All,
4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services.
7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance;
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
11 <u>But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.</u> <u>--MARY?? NO!!</u>
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place <u>once for all</u>, having obtained eternal redemption. YES THE PERFECT COVENANT! I DON'T NEED THE REPETITIOUS KILLING OF JESUS CHRIST DURING MASS!!!
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason <u>He is the Mediator of the new covenant</u>, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. AMEN!!

[pro610]

Dear Timor,
I'm glad you brought up Heb 9 .
But, you still do not understand the clear typology in all of this.

Perhaps this will help you regarding Heb 9(this is also part of Eucharist typology that the Early Christians also saw clearly)

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3–5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest.

Go back and read what St. Gregory said in my post #1124


You also said this about Heb 9:12

""12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. YES THE PERFECT COVENANT! I DON'T NEED THE REPETITIOUS KILLING OF JESUS CHRIST DURING MASS!!!""

You are not understand that God is outside of time

Heb -9:12 Jesus enters into heaven, the Holy Place, taking His own blood. How can this be? He wasn’t bleeding after the resurrection. This is because He enters into the heavenly sanctuary to mediate the covenant of His body and blood by eternally offering it to the Father. This offering is made present to us in the same manner as Melchizedek’s offering, under the appearance of bread and wine.
The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that CLEAN oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
You need to understand that GOD is outside of time, everything is "NOW" with Him.We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is "NOW" with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.

That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.


There is overwhelming typology on Eucharist.

Here is some of what I posted on another site.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1848700/posts?page=800#800

I suggests you join there.
There is much more space than factnet, but I must warn you that you cannot post harsh comments because they will ban you instantly.




I wish you Blessed day!




God is outside of time

[trsrinheaven]

Why would you think Jesus would enter the world through a sinful creature?

pro666

Anyone born again spiritually from above receives the spirit of God Jesus Chrisit in them.

Are they sinless? Were they sinless before this happened? Of course NOT!

So your Mary baloney of being sinless is just ridiculous.
All God received partially from Mary was a physical body genetics. The sinless spirit of God was in Jesus.

The Spirit is sealed unable to be penetrated so it can exist in a flesh and blood body.
John 4John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Romans 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you,"...

[timoriateos]

You cannot continue making a point on this Catholic Typolgy when the Typology has already been defined <u>BY SCRIPTURE!!</u>

9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, <u>with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation</u>. DEFINETELY NOT MARY -NOT OF THIS CREATION (HEAVENLY, EVERLASTING)

THE BIBLE DEFINES THE TYPOLOGY. Just like Jesus being the new Adam is clearly established <u>by scripture</u>. I guarantee you I can make typologies of my own by combining different passages from scripture - BUT THEY WOULD BE UNBIBLICAL!
This is exactly what I was explaining earlier. Satan KNOWS the word of God and he has used it before:

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. -NOT OUT OF THE MOUTH OF CATHOLIC PRIESTS
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: <u>for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.</u>

AND HE CONTINUES TO USE IN AN EFFORT TO KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE THRUTH OF GOD'S WORD.

[timoriateos]

Pro610 wrote,

"You need to understand that GOD is outside of time, everything is "NOW" with Him.We must remember that GOD is outside of time."

You need to also remember that God sent His Son, and he entered our dimension of time and that SAME JESUS has ONCE FOR ALL made that sacrifice!!

Also he talks to us so that we may understand because "God is not the author of confusion". IT CLERLY SAYS:
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood <u>He entered</u> the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption - <u>PAST TENSE! HE HAS ALREADY DONE THIS BEFORE GOD FOR US!!!
</u>

[pro610]

Daer Timor,

You should not be so quick to dismiss the typology of Mary. Remember, we have consistant Early writings to back up the reason why these Scriptures were part of Bible Canon

The Moses- Jesus typology is also similar in showing fulfillment through Jesus... This is why many Jews converted to Christianity and still do today

An evil king/Pharaoh tried to kill him as a baby: Exodus 1:22 type = is -King Herod tried to kill baby Jesus: Matthew 2:16

He was hidden from the evil king/Pharaoh: Exodus 2:2 type = is-An angel said to hide the child from the evil King Herod: Matthew 2:13


Moses was sent into Egypt to preserve his life: Exodus 2:3-4 type = is -Jesus was taken into Egypt to preserve His life: Matthew 2:13-15


He was saved by women: his mother: Exodus 2:3; Miriam 2:4; Pharaoh's daughter 2:5-10 type =
is- Saved and helped by His mother, Mary: Matthew 2:14


Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses: Exodus 2:10 type = is-Joseph adopted Jesus: Matthew 1:25


Moses became a prince of Egypt: Exodus 2:10 type =is- Jesus is the Prince of Peace: Isaiah 9:5; Matthew 28:18; Luke 2:14


Long period of silence from childhood to adulthood .Moses had a secret identity type = is-Long period of silence from childhood to adulthood .Messianic secret = Jesus the Son of God


He tried to save a Hebrew kinsman: Exodus 2:11-12 type = is-Jesus came to save His Hebrew kinsman first: Mark 7:26-28


Went from being a prince to a pauper: Exodus 2:15-19 type = is-Went from being God to being man: John 1:1-3; Mark 6:3


Saved women at a well: Exodus 2:15-19 type =
is - Saved a woman at a well: John chapter 4


Became a shepherd: Exodus 3:1 type = is- He is the Good Shepherd: John 10:11


Moses' mission was to redeem Israel from slavery to Egypt type = is- Jesus' mission is to redeem mankind from slavery to sin


Moses was loved and supported in his ministry by his sister Miriam [in Hebrew, Miryam] type = is-Jesus was loved and supported in his ministry by His mother Mary [in Hebrew, Miryam]


Moses will give God's law on the mountain of Sinai: Exodus 20:1-31:18; 34:1-35 type = is- Jesus will give the new law from the Mt. of Beatitudes: Matthew chapter 5


Moses spent 40 days fasting on the mountain: 24:18;34:28 type = is- Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the desert wilderness: Matthew 4:2

Moses performs signs/ miracles type = is- Jesus performs signs/miracles


Moses offered his life for the salvation of his people after the sin of the Golden Calf: Exodus 32:33-33 type = Is- Jesus offered His life for the salvation of the world: Isaiah 53:12; Romans 5:12; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 5:15-21; Colossians 1:19-20; 2:14-15; 1 John 1:7; 2:2; etc.


Moses is the prophet of the Old Covenant Church type = is - Jesus is the prophet, priest, and King of a New and everlasting Covenant = the universal Catholic Church

There is also the typology of Jonah who spent three days in the belly of the whale that types Jesus spending three days in the depth of the earth and so forth .

[pro610]

The Bible is a Book of Salvation History,typology,Covenants and so forth.

Christianity is NOT a religion of the book ONLY, but of a God-man, Jesus Christ. If anything, it is quite amazing how Christianity often had to SEPERATE themselves from the "book", the commonly-held interpretation of the Bible. For example, "he who hangs on a tree is condemned". The book says Jesus is condemned. But we base our religion on the experience of the Risen Lord, which was prophesied by reading this book in a CERTAIN MANNER! As a result, by slavishly following "the book" while disregarding Christian interpretations of it, I find it difficult to understand how one can accuse those first Christians of "contradicting" Scripture, as if that disqualifies one from being Christian. The Bible was NEVER their first and only rule of faith! Christians found that they HAD to "contradict" the commonly-held notions to explain their cognitive dissonance that they experienced.
Before condemning an interpretation, one SHOULD look at what the FIRST Christians did and practiced. It is possible that your own interpretations might be incorrect - since you are far removed in time and culture from the original authors of Scripture, the Apostles.


BTW, The typology I was giving you is clearly backed up with Scripture and is clearly interpreted this way by 2000 years of ACTUAL early Christian writings.

This is someting you cannot provide by usuing YOUR own "personal" interpretations.

As for God being outside of time...Perhaps this will help you...

Imagine a very large mountain. Now picture many hundreds of people standing around this mountain. Now, each of these people represent a person doing something in one month of time. Each person is representative of a particular month and year. So you would have 12 people representative of "year 1", and so forth. Now, these people. They are facing another person of the "past" months and years. They cannot face into the "future" months and years. This is how we see time. We can look at ourselves (present) OR the past time that has gone by. Now God. Let's say God has a bird's eye view above this mountain. He looks down at all of these people. His "view" takes in ALL of the people. He is able to see "Jan, year 1", all the way to the last month and year, say "Mar 2079". Thus, God's view of time is all-encompassing. He sees all time as one present event. Also, He is not subject to it. He can "reach down" into the "people", the "times", and give them help or gifts. God is accessible to ALL times, since He can reach every person surrounding the mountain at any "time" He desires - while time is not moving forward for us.
With this analogy, it becomes a bit easier to see how God is able to reach into various points of time - while also viewing thousands of years later during the "same instant". With this in mind, there is no past or future. To God, all is one PRESENT. One NOW. As He does things "within time", time isn't changing, for Him. Those people still represent the same month and date - thus, no time changed. He is able to effect any point of time - while viewing how man or time will change - by looking at a "future" month and year.
Does that help?

Any other explanation I have heard is our view of God on a time line. For example, saying that one day to God is 1000 years to us. It is a human way of saying that God's "time" is not our "time". But it doesn't explain how God is unchanging. IF God's time WAS "one day" to our "one thousand years", literally, then God WOULD change! The above is the best way to try to explain how God is unchanging and is able to see ALL time simultaneously.

[pro610]

Timor,

I see no reason to go round and round on this unless you can provide historical "Christian" writings from the first century through the early 15th century to back up your wild claims

Time for work..
Don't be afraid to seek the truth

I wish you a blessed day.

[timoriateos]

Pro610,

I appreciate your participation. I'll wrap it up with a few final answers and thoughts:

You said, "You should not be so quick to dismiss the typology of Mary. Remember, we have consistant Early writings to back up the reason why these Scriptures were part of Bible Canon"

I have only used scripture to dismiss the RCC's false doctrine.

I have proved how Scripture contradicts the "Early" writtings you have quoted

The reason why they are in contradiction is because these were not inspired writtings

<u>ALL OF THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE</u> is based on other writtings that are not inspired of GOD

You also said,
"I find it difficult to understand how one can accuse those first Christians of "contradicting" Scripture, as if that disqualifies one from being Christian"

I never said this disqualifies anybody from being a Christian. These early writters were just simply wrong because they contradict God's inspired Word. It looks like they did not give heed to Paul's plead "that we should no longer be children, <u>tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--</u>

You also said,

"Before condemning an interpretation, one SHOULD look at what the FIRST Christians did and practiced.

We can clearly see in the inspired Word which was the way the early Christians <u>should have lived</u> by the instructions given to them by those inspired of God. Otherwise I would look at the way the sinful Corinthians lived, or the way the foolish Galatians (as Paul calls them) lived, and live according to their standards. Thank God we have God's Word to guide us and instruct us

And finally you said,

"It is possible that your own interpretations might be incorrect - since you are far removed in time and culture from the original authors of Scripture, the Apostles."

I have made every effort to give you Scripture only. Once you step outside the boundary of God's Word and start interpreting the Bible based upon the way "Early" writters thought or lived or based upon what other people say the Bible says, then its not valid. You are also far removed from the "Early" writters. I have used the Bible to define what the Bible says. You have used "Early" writters to define what the Bible says.

<u>GOD'S WORD ENDURES FORERVER!</u>

Good day!

(Message edited by timoriateos on October 02, 2007)

[pro610]

Timor said....

""I have proved how Scripture contradicts the “Early” writtings you have quoted""


You proved NOTHING other than to psychologically convince yourself of your own PERSONAL interpretations from a Book(Bible)that is NOT self authenticating. We don’t even know who wrote large portions of the NT. How do we know it is not forgeries? No, we rely on those first witnessed,The Early Church Fathers,who were empowered by God. By their life, we know they were honest and really witnesses Christ’s glorious Body and His divine teachings. Those who heard their teachings and witnessed their life testified to them, and so forth. Thus, we know that the Scripture is from God.

You also said...
“”I have made every effort to give you Scripture only.””

And if you were raised in Iran, you’d say the same thing about the Koran. So how does an unbiased person know who is correct?

Without any Early Christian verification you most likely end up worshiping a BOOK and your own personal interpretations that no early Christian would ever agree with you on.

Which puts you in the group of 35,000 plus(and growing) different non denominational groups that all claim "the Holy Spirit" told them.

There is only ONE truth and ONE Holy Sprirt though.

Perhaps what you “think” is God speaking to you through scripture is all an an element of your own mind wanting to believe it.

If I may borrow the words from Shakespeare...

“”Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.....or art thou but A dagger of the mind””

The point is -that people want to think they are given some special personal interpretation of Scripture by God are most likely imagining what they want to believe.

This is the main reason why there is so much division amongst Christians.

Anything that DIVIDES the Body of Christ (the Church)always has a diabolic connection to it.
History has proven this

I pray for you to be honest with yourself!

Adios

[timoriateos]

Dear Pro610,

You said,
"You proved NOTHING other than to psychologically convince yourself of your own PERSONAL interpretations from a Book(Bible)that is NOT self authenticating"

I'LL BREAK DOWN THIS COMMENT BEING THAT IS MOST INTERESTING:
-YOU SAY THE BIBLE IS NOT SELF-AUTHENTICATING. YET YOU DISSAPROVE OF MY SUPPOSED INTERPRETATION (I SAY SUPPOSED BECAUSE I REALLY ONLY QUOTED SCRIPTURE THAT WAS AGAINST CATHOLIC DOCTRINE)
-BEING THAT YOU SAY THE BIBLE IS NOT SELF-AUTHENTICATING, HOW IS IT THAT THEN THE "EARLY" WRITTERS YOU QUOTED "AUTHENTICATED" WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS THE BIBLE? WOULD THEY NOT HAVE TO ALSO RELY ON THEIR JUDGEMENT/INTERPRETATION? BY THE WAY THE WRITTERS YOU HAVE QUOTED <u>LIVED SEVERAL DECADES REMOVED FROM THE DATE THE GOSPELS ACCOUNTS AND EPISTLES WERE WRITTEN!</u>
SO THAT LEAVES US WITH ONE CONCLUSION ONLY:
<u>YOU RELY ON "EARLY" WRITTERS THAT OPPOSE WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS THE BIBLE, AND I RELY ON SCRIPTURE ALONE</u> THESE "EARLY" WRITTERS LAYED THE FOUNDATION TO NUMEROUS CATHOLIC DOCTRINE BUT NOT ALL BECAUSE MORE DOCTRINE WAS ADDED SEVERAL CENTURIES LATER

[timoriateos]

ALSO IT IS VERY INTERESTING THAT YOU GIVE THOSE WRITTINGS THE SAME WEIGHT AS THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS AND EPISLTES. <u>WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS HOW IS IT THAT THOSE "EARLY" WRITTINGS ARE SELF-AUTHENTICATING?</u> I SEE HOW I COULD USE YOUR SAME LOGIC TO TRY TO PROVE YOU WRONG. HOW IRONIC IS THAT?

YOU SAY THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH "AUTHORIZED" THE BIBLE, YET THE BIBLE DOES NOT AUTHORIZE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE!

[timoriateos]

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 <u>Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.</u> THESE WERE PEOPLE IN THE "EARLY" CHURCH THAT HAD ERRED! SHOULD WE LISTEN TO THEM ABOUR THEIR DOCTRINE? NO! JUST THE SAME THAT WE SHOULD NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE WHOSE DOCTRINE IS CONTRARY TO GOD'S WORD. YES THIS INCLUDES THE "EARLY" RCC WRITTERS.
19 <u>Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.</u> AMEN! GOD HAS LAID HIS BEAUTIFUL TRUTHS FOR US TO KNOW IN THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS AND EPISTLES!

I HOPE THAT GOD CAN USE WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE TO LEAD THOSE WHO ARE MEMBERS OUT OF "BABYLON THE GREAT" A.K.A THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND INTO HIS ARMS OF LOVE.

IN HIS LOVE, UNTIL HE COMES

CARLOS (TIMORIATEOS)

(Message edited by timoriateos on October 03, 2007)

[trsrinheaven]

timoriateos
Here is the most recent information, studies, research and true scoop on the catholic church and its members.... Notice that More than two-thirds of Catholics (68%) say the devil is non-existant and only a symbol of evil. (2006).
The reason is because the catholic leadership does not use the Bible as the final word on Christianity nor does it encourage its members to do so, or read, practice and teach the Bible. They hold their catechisms wrong twisted man made inventions and doctrines above the Bible.

Slightly more than 1 out of every 5 U.S. adults (21%) attends a Catholic church. To look at the profile of the Catholic Church, we segmented Catholic church-goers across a number of demographic characteristics.

Income of Catholics:

29% earn $35,000 or less annually. (2006)
20% earn between $35,000 and $60,000 a year (2006)
32% earn over $60,000 or more each year (2006)
Marital status of Catholics:

62% are married (2006)
Ethnicity of Catholics:

57% are white (2006)
31% are Hispanics (2006)
2% are black (2006)
Faith Commitment:

55% of Catholics have attended attend a church service, not including a special event such as a wedding or funeral, in the past week. (2006)
43% indicated that they are absolutely committed to the Christian faith. (2006)
29% are unchurched (2006)
29% have read the Bible in the past week, not including when they were at church. (2006)
30% are classified as born again Christians. (2006)
29% strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to tell others about their faith. (2006)
Less than 1% are classified as evangelical Christians. (2006)
Beliefshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif "Evangelicals" meet the born again criteria plus seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; believing they have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, Gods word, and the Holy Spirit, beleiving responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; asserting that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not dependent upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church they attend.")

More than two-thirds of Catholics (68%) say the devil is non-existant and only a symbol of evil. (2006).
The most recent national studies and surveys, and research also conducted by Barna Research.

[trsrinheaven]

continued...
Notice also that only 30% are classified as the Biblically based teaching of Jesus in John 3:3 as being born again from above Christians. (2006).

That leaves 70% of catholics floundering around with non Biblical opinions and ideas such as being members, being baptised, and or doing good works will get them relationship, into heaven, forgiveness from God and or makes them a Christian.

I have one question: how many sins, or how many good works does it take to insure this.
Living in a garage doesn't make you a car and being a member of an organization or sitting in a church building doesn't make you a Christian with eternal right standing with God.

[timoriateos]

trs,

Those are significant stats, and I think that there are SO MANY church goers out there from other backgrounds/denominations that could very well be a part of those stats as well

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, <u>and there are many who go in by it.</u>
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, <u>and there are few who find it.</u>
15 <u>"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.</u>

[pro610]

timoriateos said...

""I HOPE THAT GOD CAN USE WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE TO LEAD THOSE WHO ARE MEMBERS OUT OF “BABYLON THE GREAT” A.K.A THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND INTO HIS ARMS OF LOVE.""


LOL!

Be glad that you don’t have that much evil in you to lead others away from the Catholic Church.

Consider that a complement!

Your rejecting the Catholic Church is not even any of your ORIGINAL ideas. All you're doing is repeating the same old lies that someone else has fed you . Nothing new!

Then you twist and misuse scripture interpretations to try to support the lies.
Again! Nothing new!

Your approach to try and discredit the Catholic Church is laughable

The fact is...that you don’t have any historical writings from other Christians to support these lies.
Your only defense is that The Catholic Church controlled "everything"

Did the thought ever enter your mind why God would allow this to happen,and why God would allow these terrible people to give you a book that you can foolishly try and use against these Catholics?

Sounds like a God of confusion that you worship!

The only ones that get led away from the Church are the weak in faith.

If you take away the Early Christian writings you’re left with the writings of the heretics,such as Arians,Pelagians,sethites ,etc...

Perhaps you think they were the real Christians?

Trs pointed out some statististics(I’m not sure how accurate they are).In any event,this goes to show that there are many weak in Faith.

Timori,You correctly pointed out that this can be applied to other Christian groups as well.

We have wolves within the Catholic Church itself that cause damage to the weak in faith

We have had them throughout the long history of the Church and even scripture tells us the Church will always be persecuted by bad weeds

Matt. 13:24-30 point out that scandals have always existed in the Church, just as they have existed outside of the Church. This should not cause us to lose hope in the Church. God’s mysterious plan requires the wheat and the weeds to be side by side in the Church until the end of time.

Try as they may... “The Gates of Hell shall Not prevail against it”

This is something you cannot say about solo scripture because you are part of a group of many thousand or even millions(who knows) that cannot agree on interpretations of scripture amongst your own selves.

You have no unity.


I Pray for you to study Christian History!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Pro610:

Quoting: "Did the thought ever enter your mind why God would allow this to happen . . ."
End quote.

Perhaps the same reason God allowed Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden?

Quoting: ". . . why God would allow these terrible people to give you a book that you can foolishly try and use against these Catholics?"
End quote.

I am not sure which book you are making reference to. But I would, again, say the same reason God allowed Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden. Anyway, I, again, beg to know why you insist on calling the Roman church catholic.

Deja Vu? Quoting: "Try as they may... “The Gates of Hell shall Not prevail against it”
End quote. Do you mean like when the Romans destroyed the church Peter built in 70 AD?

[pro610]

TATM,
""Perhaps the same reason God allowed Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden? ""


Perhaps you should realize that the Old Testament is fulfilled in the New testament.

In other words... Christ gave his life to show that Love is stronger than death.

Do you have the wisdom to figure that out?

Good Night!

I wish you a Blessed evening!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Pro610:

So did Jesus LOVE the scribes and pharisees when he called them whited sepulchers? Temper, temper, temper.

[timoriateos]

Pro610,

Let me say this again. You are frustrated with <u>the fact</u> that I use the Bible to establish my convictions, yet you use writtings that tell you what the Bible really says. In other words, why even read the Bible, when you cannot allow the Spirit of God to tell you what it says? Your "holy spirit" is your Cathecism, because it tells you what you should believe! In other words God's inspired word was imperfect, so the RCC came up with a book of non-Biblical doctrines that tell you what you should believe.

One example: The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church.

Christ is the Head of the Church which is His Body.

Therefore, the Catholic Church cannot be the true Church which God is building, because they have different heads.

Mary Queen of Heaven is the same Queen spoken of in Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to <u>the queen of heaven</u>, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


And:
Jer 44:16 "As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you!
17 "But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.
18 "But since we stopped burning incense to <u>the queen of heaven</u> and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.

The RCC still worships the same Queen of Heaven!

[timoriateos]

Let's look at this famous Catholic Prayer to Mary:

<u>REGINA COELI</u>

V. <u>Queen of Heaven</u>, rejoice, alleluia: R. For he whom you merited to bear, alleluia,

V. Has risen, as he said, alleluia. R. <u>Pray for us to God</u>, alleluia.

V. Rejoice and be glad, O <u>Virgin Mary</u>, alleluia. R. Because the Lord is truly risen, alleluia.

Let us pray. O God, who by the Resurrection of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, granted joy to the whole world: grant, <u>we beg you, that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, his Mother, we may lay hold of the joys of eternal life</u>. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

CATHOLICS BEG TO THEIR MOTHER BECAUSE THEIR fATHER DOES NOT HEAR THEM! SHE IS THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN JEREMIAH SPEAKS OF!

"<u>A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful</u>, who devoutly recite this according to the formula indicated for the time of the year.

It is a praiseworthy practice to recite these prayers in the early morning, at noon, and in the evening." Taken from http://www.catholicculture.org/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=428

(Message edited by timoriateos on October 08, 2007)

[timoriateos]

<u>AVE REGINA COELORUM</u>

<u>HAIL, O Queen of Heav'n enthron'd</u>,
Hail, by angels Mistress own'd
Root of Jesse, Gate of morn,
Whence the world's true light was born.
Glorious Virgin, joy to thee,
Lovliest whom in Heaven they see,
Fairest thou where all are fair!
<u>Plead with Christ our sins to spare.</u>
V. <u>Allow me to praise thee, holy Virgin.</u>
R. Give me strength against thy enemies.

PLEAD WITH CHRIST OUR SINS TO SPARE? SOUNDS LIKE A CHRIST THAT DOES NOT WANT TO IMPART GRACE AND FORGIVE SINNERS! SO THE RCC HAS "THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN" PLEAD TO CHRIST FOR THEM!!! HOW SATANIC! THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME CHRIST OF THE BIBLE!

This is what the God's word has to say:

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

THIS IS THE CHRIST OF THE BIBLE. THE HIGH PRIEST WHO HEARS US SINNERS THAT WE MAY OBTAIN MERCY!!!!

[timoriateos]

<u>SALVE REGINA</u>

Hail, holy Queen, <u>Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness, and our hope.</u>
To you we cry, the children of Eve;
to you we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this land of exile.


Turn, then, <u>most gracious advocate,</u>
your eyes of mercy toward us;
lead us home at last
and show us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus:
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary

GOD HAS ALREADY GIVEN US THE <u>ONLY</u> ADVOCATE:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have <u>an Advocate</u> with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I CHOSE JESUS CHRIST TO BE MY ADVOCATE!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). timoriateos:

Quoting: "One example: The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church."
End quote.

The pope is not the head of the catholic church. He is the head of the Roman church. There is a major difference.

[pro610]

timoria,

I suggest you read this...
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm


If I were you,I would be concerned with having an idolatrous relationship with your "own" interpretation of the Bible

There are many people who claim Christ as their Saviour and have an idolatrous relationship with the Bible.


I will continue to pray for you.

I wish you a Blessed Day!

[timoriateos]

You are accusing me of these?:

Ps 119:11 <u>Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You!</u>
12 Blessed are You, O LORD! Teach me Your statutes!
13 With my lips I have declared All the judgments of Your mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies, As much as in all riches.
15 <u>I will meditate on Your precepts, And contemplate Your ways.</u>
16 <u>I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word</u>.


Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; <u>and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart</u>: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts

You have been offended by God's Word because

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is <u>living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart</u>.

[timoriateos]

<u>I rejoice in Christ my Saviour and I will glory in Him alone</u>

For He has redeemed my life from the pit and He has removed my sins "as far as the east is from the west" and he will remember them no more! I can rejoice in the fact that HE loves me and He sent His only begotten Son to die in my place. Jesus Christ is MY SAVIOR!

I will rejoice in the fact that God has provided me with the ONLY mediator Jesus Christ His Son, that I may enter boldly to His throne of grace!

I will rejoice in the fact that he sealed me with His Holy Spirit as a Guarantee and if die today I shall be with Him for eternity!

What a good and awesome God is HE! For He has blessed me, a sinner, together with those who believe in Him beyond what any man can fathom!

<u>YES I REJOICE IN HIM AND IN THE PROMISE OF HIS WORD! AND IN HIM I WILL GLORY!</u>

[timoriateos]

LETS ALSO REMEMBER THAT:

<u>Ro 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.</u>