Is Catholicism a cult [Archive]

pro610

03-16-2006, 04:58 PM

Kirby
Quote;
"I love my bible, thank God for His Word!"

Then you should realize that the Bible came from People in the Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible did not just fall out of the sky!

Jesus Christ declared in Matthew 16:18, that He will build His Church on solid rock, the rock of Simon-Peter.
It is generally recognized that the point of actual founding of the Catholic Church is at the cross in John 19:34, "...but one of the soldiers opened His side with a lance, and immediately there came out blood and water."
At Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4, the Apostles were given the authority, and the power, by the Holy Spirit with which to commence the building of the Church. Notice in Acts 2:14-36 that Peter, the same Peter who denied Christ three times and ran off and wept (Matt 26:69-75), is immediately emboldened and gives his first discourse.

The blueprint for the birth and growth of the Catholic Church was drawn by Jesus Christ Himself.
"The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field. This indeed is the smallest of all the seeds; but when it grows up it is larger than any herb and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and dwell in its branches." Matthew 13:31-32

Jesus Christ planted that tiny seed, and He has tended it, and watered it, and loved it, and nourished it, and protected it, and watched it grow and expand for almost 2000 years. He will continue to watch over His Church until the end of time. That is His promise.

Brother, you really need to be careful declaring what people are mislead.

leftin1991

03-16-2006, 05:54 PM

The Catholic "church" institution is the whore of Revelation 17, and God will destroy it (Rev. 17:18). Roman Catholics have killed more people than Muslims, if you study the history of the Dark Ages in Europe. Rome is an enemy of literacy, freedom, and democracy, especially in Latin America. That is why "Christ's Mass" (Dec. 25) was illegal in England and in America for over 100 years!

NTCC is like most churches, refusing to say much about like this, but you can Google "Catholic Chronicles" and "Martyrs' Mirror" to learn the truth. It is called "MYSTERY BABYLON." This is what God said to do to Babylon: "Shoot at her, spare no arrows." (Jer. 50:14)

kirby

03-16-2006, 05:57 PM

leftin1991,
you are just like Marc Perez and Derrick.
your true colors are coming out.

you think your 'new' church or 'new way' is the only right one. of course you'll say the same about us.

but if you say you believe in Christ as your Savior, then i'll take you at that and that alone and by God's grace, i'll see you in heaven.

leftin1991

03-16-2006, 05:57 PM

kirby

03-16-2006, 06:03 PM

ok, i can see you are not sparing any arrows, you posted this 3 times.

leftin1991,
you are just like Marc Perez and Derrick.
your true colors are coming out.

you think your 'new' church or 'new way' is the only right one. of course you'll say the same about us.

but if you say you believe in Christ as your Savior, then i'll take you at that and that alone and by God's grace, i'll see you in heaven.

kirby

03-16-2006, 06:14 PM

ok, left in 1991,

you win, (i am not sure what?)

you must not really like the catholic church.
fine. you aren't sparing any arrows, fine.

i am not saying i am for the catholic church or not.

leftin1991, can someone get saved in the catholic church?

pro610

03-16-2006, 06:27 PM

leftin1991,

Part#1
Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words literally understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation (not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both factually and from the only words of Scripture which tell us of the actual doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the apostle John in his letters.

There would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal. Lets look first at literal interpretation.

"The seven heads represent seven hills on which the woman sits." First of all, no Pope has ever lived or had his "seat" (cathedra or cathedral) on any of the seven hills of Rome. These hills are small hillocks (Capitoline, Palatine, Esquiline, Aventine and three lesser "bumps" in central Rome) where the religion and government of pagan Rome was situated. The Catholic Church's headquarters at the Lateran (the cathedral) and at the Vatican (where the Pope lives) does not coincide with them. At the time that John wrote Revelation the Christians of Rome lived mostly in Trastevere (trans Tiber), a district "across the Tiber" from the City and adjacent to the Vatican hill where St. Peter was crucified and buried. The Vatican is on top of that burial site and is today its own city-state distinct from Rome and Italy.

So, of what was St. John speaking when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos around 96 AD? Obviously of the pagan imperial system situated on the Seven Hills, especially the Capitoline (the religious and political center) and the Palatine (the imperial palace). This pagan power persecuted the Church of Rome in Nero's day (64-67 AD), and in the mid-90s under Domitian was persecuting Christians throughout the Roman world. Domitian was considered by the people a re-incarnation of the evil, but well-liked, Nero (the head that lives again). While the antichrist Nero persecuted only the Christians of Rome, Domitian extended that persecution throughout the empire. Both are thus types of the final persecutor, the Antichrist.

mark_g

03-16-2006, 06:29 PM

Hello everyone:

I believe that most Catholics will agree that the Catholic Church has gone through a great deal of Corruption in their history. I don't think very many of them will try to defend the Crusades, or the things that they put many people through during their history. But I don't think it is right to bring up the past when most of them will agree that the church was wrong. I wouldn't like to stand accused for the crimes of my ancestors, and I don't think anyone else here would either.

I would, and could be critical of them if the Catholic Church refused to accept responsibility for their actions, or tried to whitewash what they have done throughout history, Because alot of people suffered. Mark

And Yes, People do get saved, and are saved in the Catholic Church. Many Love God with all their hearts, and would put many Christians to shame with the way they live their lives. Mark

pro610

03-16-2006, 06:34 PM

Part#2
Why the cryptic name Babylon? First, the
historical Babylon was the pagan power which persecuted the People of God, the Jews, between 610 and 538 BC, destroying the Temple and dispersing the people. The Romans inherited that mantle of infamy when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and, more importantly, persecuted the new People of God, the Church. Thus, St. Peter, writing from Rome refers to as "Babylon" (1 Pt. 5:13) - a name any Jew or Christian familiar with the Old Testament would know.

How does this relate to the Antichrist? The future Antichrist will be a world-wide power, essentially pagan, which will persecute the Catholic Church (and orthodox Christians in general) everywhere, as the Babylonians persecuted the Jews and 1st century Rome the Church. These are biblical types! The Babylon of John's day, Rome, stands for the kingdom of the future Antichrist and is no more likely to be situated in Italy than Rome needed to be situated in Babylonia (modern Iraq). John was informing his readers of these prophetic types by drawing their attention to the contemporary fulfillment they found in pagan Rome. The Antichrist will come out of the Christian world (Greco-Roman civilization) to be sure (1 John 2:19), but America is as much an inheritor of that civilization as Europe and just as likely to be the source of the Antichrist.

Finally, after distorting the text and history to read what they want into the Bible, and thereby obtaining God's "blessing" on their hatred of the Catholic Church, some "Christians" ignore the only texts of Scripture which tells us about the religious leanings of the Antichrist. The Catholic faith being a religion you would think they would see what it teaches on the only criteria the Bible actually gives about the Antichrist. In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. There is not a single text in 2000 years, including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, where the Catholic Church, her popes, her bishops, her official teachings, her saints, or her acknowledged ecclesiastical authors, deny the Word-made-flesh or the Blessed Trinity. Instead, all of Christianity owes the preservation of these Truths to the Catholic Church, whose great Councils formulated them and whose saints and popes have defended them to this day, often at the cost of martyrdom. The late pope, John Paul II, has written three great encyclical (circular) letters on the Trinity, one for each Divine Person, and he has without a doubt preached Jesus Christ to more people than any other person in human history. The Catholic Church does not have the spirit of the Antichrist but of God, since no one without the Spirit can say "Jesus is Lord" (1 Cor. 12:3), something the Church and Catholics always have done and continue to do!

So why is the Catholic Church maligned as the Whore? Jesus himself answered the question: "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household" (Matt. 10:25). "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you" (John 15:18–20).

leftin1991

03-16-2006, 06:54 PM

Certainly He can! God has many ways to speak to people, and He can save anyone, anywhere, anytime! He responds to the smallest baby step of faith. Then when we respond to one simple truth, God always sends us more truth. But the Spirit of Truth will not lead anyone deeper into any false faith.

FactNet is causing these posting duplications, it is happening to others too.

leftin1991

03-16-2006, 07:14 PM

Sorry bro, God Himself clearly marked your religious organization unmistakably with SCARLET and PURPLE! (Rev. 17:3-4). Will you try to deny that those are the official colors of Roman Catholicism? If so, can you find some other organization having these two colors that would qualify? ("drunken with the blood of the saints", exceedingly wealthy, etc.)

You are quite zealous to defend your "church," and make her look respectable, but she is a whore and the mother thereof! (Rev. 17:5, Protestant denominations/cults). Frankly, if the Catholic church ain't the whore, then you've got to find us another whore here!

pro610

03-17-2006, 12:08 AM

1991,
The symbolic meaning of the colors—purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, you are being literal in your interpretation. You need to understood in Revelation that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now you and other fundamentalist want to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy.

Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)—even the pope does so.

The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This is a problem for fundamentalists for three reasons: (a) I have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally; (b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and (c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalem—a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25–26).

The liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

Brother,
You are making a grave mistake in believing and spreading lies of other,s about the Catholic Church.
I pray it does not cost you your Salvation.

You really need to do your own searching,I would be happy to help you with your questions.

In Christ

pro610

03-17-2006, 12:29 AM

Here are some questions Anti-Catholics need to find the answers to since they make the accusation that the Catholic Church is apostatized.

1. Why is it that you cannot find a verse in Holy Scripture which says the entire Church which Jesus Christ founded apostatized?

2. Why do you stretch the meaning of the word "apostasy" to apply to a whole Church instead of its rightful meaning of an individual basis?

3. Why do you believe in the Bible at all, and reinforce your beliefs with the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, knowing full well that your Bible was handed down by a supposed "apostate" church?

4. Why is it that no one can find any authentic historical documentation to back up what they falsely charge? Of the thousands of genuine historical documents which anyone can see, why in century after century, did historians, and the early writers of the Christian Church fail to mention an apostasy of the Catholic Church. Do you think it is because no lie is of the truth (1John 1:21), and truth can be proven but the lie cannot?

5. Why is it that no one can provide a firm date, and provide authentic historical documents showing the names of those who were involved?

6. What was Jesus Christ doing for over one thousand years, while at the same time allowing His supposed "apostate" church to exist status quo until Martin Luther and his Protestant revolt came along? What happened to the billions of poor souls who lived through those same years?
Did GOD simply abandon them?

7. Why do you deny the many promises made by Jesus Christ, and Saint Paul, and others, that the only Church which Jesus Christ founded will last forever, when Holy Scripture says clearly and so explicitly that it certainly will last forever?

searchlight86

03-17-2006, 12:53 AM

Hi Kirby et. al. I know people who are apparently genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic church, but the organization is corrupt down to its roots. There is no ideal organization (the Roman Catholics are one of many many 'Christian' groups that are largely apostasized), but I would definitely recommend real believers to get out ASAP.

Regarding the last post, God is not to blame whatsoever for billions of poor souls being lost as a result of Roman Catholicism, or the Babylonian 'Mystery Religion', or for any other religion, sect, or reason, it is people (and some ingenious fallen angels) that are completely to blame for all evil and everyone affected by it, and the consequences can be eternal.

Check out 'A Woman Rides the Beast' by Dave Hunt, and 'The Two Babylons' by Alexander Hislop.

pro610

03-17-2006, 01:15 AM

Search86
""Check out 'A Woman Rides the Beast' by Dave Hunt, and 'The Two Babylons' by Alexander Hislop"""
Here search86,
I,ll save everyone the trouble from reading Dave Hunt,s NONSENSE!
Part#1
From; http://www.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp
In another tract, Hunting the Whore of Babylon, we looked at nine arguments given by fundamentalist Dave Hunt for his claim that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon from Revelation 17–18. His arguments are typical of those used by fundamentalist anti-Catholics and are easily proven wrong. (See that tract for details).

But we can go beyond a mere critique of the shallow anti-Catholic arguments like Hunt’s. There is irrefutable evidence in Revelation 17–18 (the chapters Fundamentalists love to quote against the Catholic Church) that proves that it is impossible for the Catholic Church to be the Whore.

A Vision in the Wilderness

When John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, he tells us: "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.’ And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly" (Rev. 17:1–6).

This passage tells us several things about the Whore: (1) She is an international power, since she "sits on many waters," representing different peoples (17:15), and she has committed fornication with "the kings of the earth," and she has inflamed "the dwellers on earth" with her fornication. (2) She is connected with the seven-headed Beast from Revelation 13:1–10. That Beast was a major pagan empire, since its symbolism combined animal elements from four other major pagan empires (compare Rev. 13:1–2 with Dan. 7:1–8). (3) The Woman is connected with royalty, since she is dressed in the royal color purple. (4) The Woman is rich, for she is "bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup." (5) She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion—lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth. (6) She is symbolically known as Babylon. (7) She is a central cause of "abominations" in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And (8) she persecutes Christians "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus."

While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation "Babylon" narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.

leftin1991

03-17-2006, 01:22 AM

Jesus did indeed say that the gates of Hell would never prevail against his church (Mat. 16:18). It is built on a solid foundation (Eph. 2:20). It is also true that God's church is a catholic (universal) church. But Romanism bears scant resemblance to the spotless bride of Christ! Paul the apostle clearly taught that after his departing grievous wolves would enter in, not sparing the flock. And that men would arise from within the church, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after themselves. (Acts 20:29-30). This was "the mystery of iniquity" (2 Thes. 2:7) during post-apostolic era, and it was the precursor to Roman Catholicism!

The Dark Ages of Catholic persecution began in 538 A.D., and ended in 1798 A.D., a span of 1260 years (Rev. 12:6). God allowed Rome to persecute and kill 60 million souls, saints of God, Jews, and any other non-Catholics. She is now drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Rev. 17:6) The Jewish people never did that, so Jerusalem cannot be the harlot. Yes, God did allow the church to go into the wilderness (Song of Sol. 8:5), but He also has been bringing it out for the past 500 years, progressively restoring truth to her. HalleluYah!

pro610

03-17-2006, 01:27 AM

part#2
The Seven Heads

Continuing in Revelation, the angel begins to explain to John the woman’s symbolism: "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while" (Rev. 17:9–10).

Fundamentalists argue that these seven mountains must be the seven hills of ancient Rome. However the Greek word here, horos, is almost always translated "mountain" in Scripture. Mountains are often symbols of kingdoms in Scripture (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Obad. 8–21; Amos 4:1, 6:1), which might be why the seven heads also symbolize seven kings. The mountains could stand for a series of seven kings, five of whom have already fallen.

This passage gives us a key rule of Bible interpretation which is often denied by Fundamentalists: A symbol does not have to refer to one and only one thing. Here Scripture itself tells us that the heads refer both to seven mountains and seven kings, meaning the symbol has multiple fulfillments. Thus there is not a one-to-one correspondence in the Bible between symbols and their referents.

Also, the mountains could be a reference to pagan Rome, yet the Whore could still be a reference to apostate Jerusalem. In this case, her sitting on the Beast would not indicate a geographical location but an alliance between the two powers. The Whore (Jerusalem) would be allied with the Beast (Rome) in persecuting "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus." (Note that the Whore also sits on many waters, which we are told are many peoples, [cf. 17:15]. The context makes it clear that here her "sitting" on something does not refer to a geographical location.)

This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.

The Ten Horns

The angel also interprets for John the meaning of the Beast’s ten horns: "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful" (17:12–14).

pro610

03-17-2006, 01:45 AM

searchlight86

03-17-2006, 01:53 AM

The Roman Catholic church is not the entire latter times religous supersystem, but will apparently lead the charge.

Roman Catholicism had its official beginning in 606 A.D., when the first universal pope came into existence. The Roman Catholic Church is generally Charismatic in that they openly believe they are in direct communication of God by inspiration, and make many claims of speaking in tongues and outright healing. Roman Catholics officially believe their organization is Christ’s one true church, established in 33 A.D., that the Pope is the God-appointed head of the entire church on earth, that teachings and decrees of the Pope as well as its church traditions are equal to the Bible in authority, and that the Roman Catholic church is the infallible interpreter of Scripture. In practice, the word of the Pope is considered supreme, divine and authoritative over all other people, as the personal and special representative of God on earth. According to numerous Popes, God only grants salvation to those who are Roman Catholics, and everyone else is eternally damned.

On the surface, Roman Catholicism has the external symbols and terminology of Christianity, but numerous core beliefs and practices were adopted from the mystery religion of ancient Babylon instituted by Nimrod and his wife Semiramis, as personal human sovereigns of the first pagan world religion. Nimrod was supreme head of the religious hierarchy he set up at Babel, was known as the Messiah and exalted Son, and his resurrection was reported in mythological form after his death. Although both Nimrod and Semiramis were deified as the King and Queen of Heaven and inserted into the Babylonian Zodiac, Semiramis was ultimately even more exalted than Nimrod. Semiramis was also known as ‘Ishtar’, from which we get the modern holiday name ‘Easter’ used to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Through the dispersion at Babel, the Madonna figure especially was adopted in almost all ancient world religions as a result. The Roman Catholic concept of Mary and Jesus as exalted, sinless Mother and Son do not originally come from Jesus Christ and Mary at all, but from Semiramis and Nimrod. For these and numerous other reasons that space does not allow here, this is probably why Roman Catholicism’s most popular figures for reverence are in practice a Madonna and the Pope, even though in theory God alone is to be worshipped.

Far more systematically ruthless than any of the pagan religions it condemns, the Roman Catholic Church has the unique distinction among those religions that call themselves by the name of Christ, of having hunted down, tortured and murdered vast multitudes of any people who would not submit to the Pope or Roman Catholicism, whether they were Christians, Jews, or anything else. This religious system intermingled itself with the world’s most corrupt political regimes and leaders, and was directly responsible for Europe’s ‘Dark Ages’ of a thousand years. Although certain recent popes have publicly apologized for the history of the church, no fundamental changes have been made to the religious system that caused and supported it, and indeed could not be without dismantling the essence of Roman Catholicism itself. Today, the Roman Catholic church is the leader of today’s ‘ecumenical movement’ to draw all religions of the world together, with the Pope and Roman Catholicism intended to reign at its head.

P.S. I know Roman Catholics hate Dave Hunt's expose, but even historical aspects of this info alone should be enough to cause anyone of good conscience to shudder (if not vomit), and especically those who consider themselves in Christ. If anyone can defend this organization, knowing its true history, and regardless of prophetic implications, they should consider if they are trusting in Christ or the R.C. 'religion' as they are taught. Only those who trust in Christ alone are received by Him.

pro610

03-17-2006, 01:53 AM

Quote
"God only grants salvation to those who are Roman Catholics, and everyone else is eternally damned""

You are clearly wrong and you have no idea what you are even talking about.

DECLARATION
"DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
http://www.cin.org/docs/dominus-iesus.html

searchlight86

03-17-2006, 02:01 AM

I guess you don't believe many Popes who have stated this clearly then, and they are in theory speaking directly for God, is that right?

If you don't see a vast problem here, it's only because you don't want to see it.

pro610

03-17-2006, 02:09 AM

part#1
With a little common sense and reasoning, it all becomes crystal clear and so very simple:
1. Jesus said,"I am the way, the truth and the life". John 14:6
2. Therefore truth is a person, the Divine Person of Jesus Christ.
3. Since Jesus is only one person, there can be only one truth.
4. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus founded His one Church, and He did say that He would protect it from within and from without for all time, since He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
5. His Church is His Body and He is the Head, and He is the Savior of His Body. Ephesians 5:23.
6. He proved this many times in Scripture by performing Miracles for the salvation of His Church such as the encounter with Saul for one, in Acts 9:4-5. Since GOD is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17), why then do some feel that GOD can not, or does not, perform similar salvific miracles in our times?
7. In Matthew 28:20, He promised that His Church would last every day in every century until the end of time.
8. Consequently, His Church has existed every day from the day of its founding (30 A.D.) until this very day.
9. Despite the non-stop merciless persecution from within and from without for almost 2000 years, the Church which Jesus Christ founded, has grown in every century since its founding, and now comprises about one-sixth of the entire population of the earth. How can this possibly be unless Jesus Christ truly is the Savior of His Body?
His promise of Matthew 28:20 is continually being fulfilled.
10. Christ made all of these salvific promises for His Church simply because He loves His Church;
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her..."
Ephesians 5:25
"For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes it and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church..."
Ephesians 5:29

The Scripture verses to which I have referred in this writing are all so very simple and clear, and the truth is all too obvious that Jesus Christ does indeed love, and cherish, and protect His Church.
Why then is it that Bible believing Protestants cannot even name that one Church which Jesus Christ founded and so loves, even though it has been highly visible in the world continuously for almost 2000 years?
Well if you do not have the answer to that question, Holy Scripture does in the following verses:

pro610

03-17-2006, 02:11 AM

part#2
Although they had seen Jesus perform so many miracles, they wouldn't believe in him. In this way the words of the prophet Isaiah came true: "Lord, who has believed our message? To whom has the Lord's power been revealed?" So the people couldn't believe because, as Isaiah also said, "God blinded them and made them close-minded so that their eyes don't see and their minds don't understand. And they never turn to me for healing!"
John 12:37-40

"He will give everlasting life to those who search for glory, honor, and immortality by persisting in doing what is good. But he will bring anger and fury on those who, in selfish pride, refuse to believe the truth and who follow what is wrong."
Romans 2:7-8

"He who does not believe the Son, makes him a liar..."
1John 5:10

Those who deny that the same Church which Jesus Christ founded is still with us today and with Him as its Head, find themselves imbedded in 1John 5:10, and are guilty of what it has said. They do not believe Him since:
They have denied that Jesus Christ is the Savior of His Body as in Ephesians 5:23.
They have denied His promise that His Church would last every day in every century as He said it would in Matthew 28:20.
They have denied that His Church would last for all time and eternity as Saint Paul said it would in Ephesians 3:21.
They have denied that Jesus loves His Church as Saint Paul recounted in Ephesians 5:25 and 5:29.
They have denied that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church forever as He promised in John 14:16-17.
They have denied that the Spirit of Truth has come to His Church as He promised in John 16:12-14.
They have denied that Jesus would not leave His Church orphaned as He promised in John 14:18.
They have denied that the Head and the Body are one and cannot be separated, Ephesians 1:22-23.
They have denied Jesus Christ Himself since He and His Church are one and the same Body, Ephesians 1:22-23.
They have indeed refused to believe Him in all of these verses.
Therefore they have surely made the Son of GOD a liar.
The verdict for those who deny any, or all of these verses is...GUILTY as charged in 1John 5:10.

Name another continuous living intelligent teaching institution in the world today, which has endured such constant persecution, and is as much as half as old as the Church which Jesus Christ founded almost 2000 years ago?

pro610

03-17-2006, 02:16 AM

search86,
Brother, the fact is that I left the Catholic Church for 18 years and after being Born Again I started to search for the TRUTH and I found that the Catholic Church is in Christ, so I returned to it.

Good Night and God Bless .

arron

03-17-2006, 05:25 AM

then i do not feel you were ever born again as you say,, for you forsook CHRIST to trust in popes and priest and confessions and the adoration of mary and of saints and.. also of stautes

pro610

03-17-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote
"Roman Catholicism had its official beginning in 606 A.D"

This statement is ridiculous brother, We even had the nicene creed before 606AD

The Nicene Creed ( 4th Century A.D. )

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
The only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through Him all things were made.

For us men and our salvation He came down from Heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy CATHOLIC and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

pro610

03-17-2006, 07:26 PM

aaron,
Quote
"then i do not feel you were ever born again as you say"

Brother, you need to be careful not to make such foolish statements.
You may be bordering on committing unpardinable sin against the Holy Spirit in trying to predict WHO is not in the Holy Spirit.

"Not every one that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Mat 7:21

aaron, I like you, but you really should not engage in topics that you have NO CLUE about (The Catholic Church)

If you don,t understand something please ask it in the form of a question rather then writing lies and heresies that other,s told you and posting it as facts.

searchlight86

03-18-2006, 12:33 AM

Although Roman Catholics claim to be the essence of all Christianity including Peter being the first Pope (which is absolutely false), I stated clearly what the 606 A.D. date is based on, a 'universal' Pope. Although there were Roman Catholic adherents before that date, the idea of Roman Catholicism being the end all previously is simply Roman Catholic spiritual pride and arrogance.

Without debating who is born again, arron is absolutely correct about pagan and idolatrous Roman Catholic practices such as trust/worship/rote prayers of/to Popes, Mary, angels, and priests and represented by physical statues (idols). This was all adopted from the ancient Babylonian mystery religion via Damasis, Bishop of Rome (please read info at link referenced on the third post of this thread), corrupting apostolic Christianity, and marrying the 'church' organizationally with the world and its corrupt leaders. Don't even think of telling me it isn't so because I've been there and personally experienced it.

(Message edited by searchlight86 on March 17, 2006)

pro610

03-18-2006, 01:32 AM

Search,
quote
**"Don't even think of telling me it isn't so because I've been there and personally experienced it."**

part#1
It isn,t so search,the fact is that you are believing a bunch of lies and your too lazy to do your own in depth research of what the RCC teaches so you rely on others(Chick and others) who have evil in their heart to give you your information.
You need to go directly to Catholic Documentation or ask a Catholic expert.
I suggest that you do this instead of spreading lies of others and putting your SALVATION at risk.

Holy Scripture is very clear that each one of us is obligated to search for the truth and to abide by it. I am appalled at the number of people who completely ignore these dire warnings from the Bible, or are ignorant of the fact that they are there. Many non-Catholics repeat outright lies about the Catholic Church and take what they have heard or have been taught as truth, without bothering to find out if these things are true or not. When they do this, not only are they calumnizing the Catholic Church, but they are calumnizing its founder, Jesus Christ Himself. After reading this file, not one person can ever again plead innocence of what Scripture has to say about spreading the truth, and about not spreading malicious lies.

Anyone who professes to follow Holy Scripture to the letter, must follow ALL of what it says. They cannot keep the parts they like and reject what they do not like. Here are some verses which obligate each and every one of us to search for the truth...

"This is good and agreeable in the sight of GOD our Savior, who wishes ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."
1Tim 2:4
"Sanctify them in the truth. Thy Word is truth."
John 17:17

"FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND WICKEDNESS OF THOSE MEN WHO IN WICKEDNESS HOLD BACK THE TRUTH OF GOD."
ROMANS 1:18
That verse by itself should deter any GOD loving person from spreading malicious lies... But there is much more to come. Read on...

pro610

03-18-2006, 01:44 AM

"BUT WRATH AND INDIGNATION TO THOSE WHO ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND WHO DO NOT SUBMIT TO THE TRUTH BUT ASSENT TO INIQUITY."
ROMANS 2:8
"...HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, AND HAS NOT STOOD IN THE TRUTH BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUTH IN HIM. WHEN HE TELLS A LIE HE SPEAKS FROM HIS VERY NATURE, FOR HE IS A LIAR AND THE FATHER OF LIES."
JOHN 8:44
Now that verse settles it. Lying comes from Satan. The truth comes from GOD.

"BUT AS FOR THE COWARDLY AND UNBELIEVING, AND ABOMINABLE AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS AND ALL LIARS, THEIR PORTION SHALL BE IN THE POOL THAT BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH."
REV 21:8
Pretty strong words for those who propagate lies.

"...AND THERE SHALL NOT ENTER INTO IT ANYTHING DEFILED, NOR HE WHO PRACTICES ABOMINATION AND FALSEHOOD, BUT THOSE ONLY WHO ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB."
REV 21:27
Let all who have eyes to see, see, and ears to hear, hear.

"OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS, AND THE SORCERERS, AND THE FORNICATORS, AND THE MURDERERS, AND THE IDOLATERS, AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND PRACTICES FALSEHOOD."
Rev 22:15
Verse after verse about what will happen to liars.

"Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord." Prov 12:22
"A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaks lies shall not escape." Prov 19:5

"The lip of truth shall be steadfast forever; but he that is a hasty witness frames a lying tongue."
Prov 12:19

"He that speaks that which he knows, shows forth justice; but he that lies, is a deceitful witness."
Prov 12:17

"Six things there are, which the Lord hateth, and the seventh His soul detesteth: haughty eyes, A LYING TONGUE, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that deviseth wicked plots, feet that are swift to run into mischief, A DECEITFUL WITNESS THAT UTTERETH LIES, AND HIM THAT SOWETH DISCORD AMONG BRETHREN."
Prov 6:16-19

Wow! Who wants to be on the wrong side of GOD? Those who spread lies are there already
"I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit."
Romans 9:1

"To this I have been appointed a preacher and an Apostle (I tell the truth, I do not lie), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."
1Tim 2:7

"Rather we are to practice the truth in love, and so grow up in all things in Him who is the head Christ."
Eph 4:15

"Wherefore, put away lying and speak truth each one with his neighbor, because we are members of one another."
Eph 4:25

pro610

03-18-2006, 01:51 AM

part3

"O men, how long are you dull of heart? Why do you love vanity and seek after lying?"
Psa 4:3

"But if you have bitter jealousy and contentions in your hearts, do not glory and be liars against the truth. This is not the wisdom that descends from above. It is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where there is envy and contentiousness, there is instability and every wicked deed."
James 3:14-16

Again! Lies are from Satan. Truth is from GOD.

"Now this is the judgment: The Light has come into the world, yet men have loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, that his deeds may not be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD."
John 3:19-21

Again! Verse after verse, truth comes from GOD.

"And his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all wicked deception to those who are perishing. For they have not received the love of truth that they might be saved. Therefore GOD sends them a misleading influence that they may believe falsehood, that all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have preferred wickedness."
2Thess 2:9-12

Again! Need I say more?

"Therefore GOD has given them up in the lustful desires of their heart to uncleanliness, so that they dishonor their own bodies among themselves - they who exchanged the truth of GOD for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is Blessed forever. Amen."
Romans 1:24-25

Amen!

"What can be made clean by the unclean? And what truth can come from that which is false?"
Sir 34:4

"But that servant who knew his masters will, and did not make ready for him and did not act according to his will, will be beaten with many stripes."
Luke 12:47

"For the rest, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever honorable, whatever just, whatever holy, whatever lovable, whatever of good repute, if there be any virtue, if anything worthy of praise, think upon these things. And what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, these things practice..."
Phil 4:8-9
"O Lord, thy eyes are upon truth; thou hast struck them, and they have not grieved; thou hast bruised them, and they have refused to receive correction; they have made their faces harder than the rock, and they have refused to return."
Jer 5:3

"...No lie is of the truth."
1John 2:21

"Woe to you that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20

"These then are the things, which you shall do: Speak you truth everyone to his neighbor: judge you truth and judgment of peace in your gates. And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his friend, and love not a false oath, for all these things I hate, said the Lord."
Zech 8:16-17

"...Everyone that hath zeal for the law, and maintaineth the testament, let him follow me."
1Macc 2:27

"Let thy speech be sound and blameless, so that anyone opposing may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say of us."
Tit 2:8

pro610

03-18-2006, 01:55 AM

Part#4

There is a mouthful of food for thought in this verse, people who deride, since they do not understand because they have not sought the truth. Look at their end result.

"In these epistles there are certain things difficult to understand, which the unlearned and the unstable distort, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also, to their own destruction."
2Pet 3:16

"Blessed are you when men reproach you, and persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you, for My sake. Rejoice and exult, because your reward is great in Heaven; for so did they persecute the prophets who were before you."
Matt 5:11-12

"But all did not obey the Gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?"
Romans 10:16

"He who says that he is in the Light, and hates his brother, is in the darkness still. He who loves his brother abides in the Light, and for him there is no stumbling. But he who hates his brother is in the darkness, and walks in the darkness, and he does not know whither he goes; because the darkness has blinded his eyes."
1John 2:9-11

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."
1Cor 10:12

And who can possibly forget one of the ten commandments...

"You shall NOT bear FALSE WITNESS against your neighbor."
Ex 20:16

There you have it. Words straight from the Bible. Do you claim to follow the Bible and all of its teachings? If so, you had better not spread lies and calumnize others. Make sure of what you speak is truth only, and not some false teaching you received from a secondary source. If you want to find the truth about something you have to go to the source and not to someone outside of that source who may be biased. If you want to learn the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches, then go to the source. Purchase a Catholic Catechism or go HERE for a Catechism search engine.

A few reasons why some people would rather not search for the truth...

They have a closed mind.

They are afraid of what they may find.

They have a fear of the unknown.

They are set in their ways and fear change.

Their pride is greater than their desire for the truth. It is human nature, not to want to admit to a mistake.

They have a habit of automatically condemning something of which they know nothing.

Bishop Fulton J. Sheen once said, "Not many men want to die to their lower selves; it costs so much. Some prefer to have a cosmic religion, which NEITHER PUTS RESTRAINT ON THEIR PRIDE NOR CURBS THEIR PASSIONS."

They would not consider learning the truth of the Catholic Church because they would have to give up some part of their lifestyle, such as using contraceptive measures.

I have heard of several Protestants who would have to give up their livelihood, as they are ministers, or gain their livelihood from Church services.

Family and peer pressures prevent them from seeking the truth. Remember, GOD comes first in the lives of all of us. Ex 20:2-3

One highly educated ex Protestant minister stated he converted after realizing five things about the Catholic Church: Its Authority, its Antiquity, its Unity, its Liturgy, and its Sacraments.

Now that I have shown you what Scripture says that you must do,
I will leave you with your conscience. You have to make the decision.

thekingsent1_again

03-18-2006, 02:05 AM

" Come out of her my people."

Simple!

searchlight86

03-18-2006, 02:26 AM

610, you are mistaken. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church, so have years of personal experience, and know exactly what I'm talking about. You are guilty of the same thing you accused others of on this thread, making unfounded assunptions without asking questions first, and completely unconcerned about slandering me in the process before God. It appears you are in complete denial.

Instead of just fighting all the overwhelming and key information, it would be wise to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" as we are all commanded in II Cor. 13.5. I'm sincerely not out to bash anyone, but am pleading to you as a friend to listen while you have opportunity!

pro610

03-18-2006, 03:22 AM

All the attacking is being done by YOU and all the defending is being done by me and others like EGK.

You are foolishly attacking Christ,s church based on your post or mid tribulation views that are NOT even close to Biblical

Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.

Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.

The only sensible view is post Trib
Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12

pro610

03-18-2006, 03:26 AM

Search,
OOps I should have said your Pre or mid trib views on my 8:26 PM post

searchlight86

03-18-2006, 03:51 AM

Fine, but salvation isn't directly related to our trib positions or anything else we've discussed, so why are you completely switching topics? BTW, are you now acknowledging your belief that the Roman Catholic church is God's one true church, and everyone else is going to hell (which many Popes have indeed stated), based on your claim that I'm foolishly attacking Christ's church?

Let me spell it out for you then. I grew up in the Roman Catholic church, confessed presumed sins to 'fathers', did rote prayers, lit candles to idols of Mary and angels, played altar boy, and was well trained in all things R.C. Your denial of abundant idolatry, personal attack in response, and switching of topics speaks for itself. What is important, however, is for you to allow the information to speak to you instead of defending against a presumed personal attack (which it isn't).

searchlight86

03-18-2006, 08:40 AM

Woops for me also, please swap "salvation" and "trib positions" in the first sentence of previous post for intended meeting. i.e. the first sentence should read "Fine, but trib positions aren't directly related to our salvation or anything else we've discussed, so why are you completely switching topics?"

pro610

03-18-2006, 11:11 AM

The reason I asked the question on Trib is because it,s the reason why people like chick try to tie the catholic church into the beast.
Brother, I was just trying to see what view you held.

Quote:

""BTW, are you now acknowledging your belief that the Roman Catholic church is God's one true church, and everyone else is going to hell.""

No!
And I would never try and Judge ANYONES SALVATION including my own.

The Catholic Church is Based in TRUTH and is TRUTH.

IN a hurry,Ill catch up later.

Regards

pro610

03-18-2006, 05:12 PM

Search,

Catholicism IS a manifestation of Christianity and not the only one. However, we also believe it is the FULLEST manifestation, when actually practiced. Like ANY organization, we must not judge something based on those worst non-practicioners or those who deviate from the Catholic faith, yet call themselves "catholic" - a la. John Kerrey and other Democratic Politicians who claim Catholicism but consider abortion something that is part of the teaching of the faith.

Catholicism is a human and divine organization. Thus, of course it has human flaws - until the Church itself is fully incorporated into the Divine Christ. None of these flaws, however, have anything to do with the PRIME job of the Church - to continue to preach and teach what Christ taught. This is what the Church continues, protected by the Spirit. Its teachings are the pillar and foundation of the truth. It is only this infallible teaching that enables us to KNOW for SURE what God taught. All else is subject to human opinion, which blows with the wind of culture. Consider many main stream Protestant groups who have already given in to such formerly non-Christian beliefs as contraception and woman priests. One hundred years ago, who would have thought that man-made religions who claim the Christian title would go so far? But there we have it. Only the Catholic Church teaches fully the truth that God intended man to know.

God protects the TEACHINGS of God given to the Apostles. Thus, we understand what Christ meant when He said "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, you shall not have life within you". We realize what this means. This truth is unchanging and will never by subverted by the Church - despite the human problems that are present in Catholicism. "God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth". We find it within the walls of the Catholic Church, and nowhere else. This does NOT "put down" other Christian communities that strive to come to Christ on their own terms. We still call you separated brothers, and individually, you are probably still within the Church as a result of your valid Baptism.

searchlight86

03-18-2006, 10:20 PM

Good for some of that. But idoloatry is at its core a spiritual problem, not a human one, and one of the most serious ones imaginable (note it's the first 'commandment', and uncoincidentally a key component of the fall of man). Can you write this off (as well as many other things, but let's just look at this one for the moment) so lightly, and claim R.C. is God's divine church on earth??? I don't see how you can reasonably do so.

pro610

03-19-2006, 04:27 AM

Search,
There is NO idolatry in the Catholic Church Brother.
I will use this example that I posted before regarding Mary since We are accused of idolatry All the time regarding Mary.The same thing holds true regarding SAINTS.

NOWHERE in Catholic literature will you ever find a document which directs Catholics to WORSHIP her. You will, however, find many documents which say we VENERATE her.

Here is what the dictionary says regarding the words venerate and worship:

Venerate: "To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference."
One of the 10 Commandments is "Honor your Father and your Mother." Do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? These are the things Catholics do for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Worship: "The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object."
Do you worship your parents? Certainly not, and neither do Catholics worship theirs. However, it is perfectly alright to venerate them and for Catholics to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I would say the two words have quite different meanings wouldn't you? Why then, do some people continue to make this false charge?

Peace in Christ Brother.

leftin1991

03-19-2006, 05:35 AM

Webster's nebulously defines 'venerate' as "admiring respect." Other sources define it as "reverence." In my mind, the term "venerate" implies more than respect, and is dangerously synonymous with worship and adoration.

pro610

03-19-2006, 05:34 PM

left1n1991,Search86,
Here is copy of an article from New Advent

Title;
Whether any kind of worship is due to the relics of the saints?

Objection 1. It would seem that the relics of the saints are not to be worshiped at all. For we should avoid doing what may be the occasion of error. But to worship the relics of the dead seems to savor of the error of the Gentiles, who gave honor to dead men. Therefore the relics of the saints are not to be honored.

Objection 2. Further, it seems absurd to venerate what is insensible. But the relics of the saints are insensible. Therefore it is absurd to venerate them.

Objection 3. Further, a dead body is not of the same species as a living body: consequently it does not seem to be identical with it. Therefore, after a saint's death, it seems that his body should not be worshiped.

On the contrary, It is written (De Eccles. Dogm. xl): "We believe that the bodies of the saints, above all the relics of the blessed martyrs, as being the members of Christ, should be worshiped in all sincerity": and further on: "If anyone holds a contrary opinion, he is not accounted a Christian, but a follower of Eunomius and Vigilantius."

I answer that, As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei i, 13): "If a father's coat or ring, or anything else of that kind, is so much more cherished by his children, as love for one's parents is greater, in no way are the bodies themselves to be despised, which are much more intimately and closely united to us than any garment; for they belong to man's very nature." It is clear from this that he who has a certain affection for anyone, venerates whatever of his is left after his death, not only his body and the parts thereof, but even external things, such as his clothes, and such like. Now it is manifest that we should show honor to the saints of God, as being members of Christ, the children and friends of God, and our intercessors. Wherefore in memory of them we ought to honor any relics of theirs in a fitting manner: principally their bodies, which were temples, and organs of the Holy Ghost dwelling and operating in them, and are destined to be likened to the body of Christ by the glory of the Resurrection. Hence God Himself fittingly honors such relics by working miracles at their presence.

Reply to Objection 1. This was the argument of Vigilantius, whose words are quoted by Jerome in the book he wrote against him (ch. ii) as follows: "We see something like a pagan rite introduced under pretext of religion; they worship with kisses I know not what tiny heap of dust in a mean vase surrounded with precious linen." To him Jerome replies (Ep. ad Ripar. cix): "We do not adore, I will not say the relics of the martyrs, but either the sun or the moon or even the angels"--that is to say, with the worship of "latria." "But we honor the martyrs' relics, so that thereby we give honor to Him Whose martyrs [The original meaning of the word 'martyr,' i.e. the Greek martys is 'a witness'] they are: we honor the servants, that the honor shown to them may reflect on their Master." Consequently, by honoring the martyrs' relics we do not fall into the error of the Gentiles, who gave the worship of "latria" to dead men.

Reply to Objection 2. We worship that insensible body, not for its own sake, but for the sake of the soul, which was once united thereto, and now enjoys God; and for God's sake, whose ministers the saints were.

Reply to Objection 3. The dead body of a saint is not identical with that which the saint had during life, on account of the difference of form, viz. the soul: but it is the same by identity of matter, which is destined to be reunited to its form.

searchlight86

03-19-2006, 09:17 PM

I grew up in the R.C. church and was specifically instructed to say (rote) prayers to Mary, angels, and who knows who else, and there were statues of them in the R.C. churches for people to light candles and pray to right there. We were taught the rote prayers to say to these personages other than God by 'sisters' and 'fathers' and 'monsignors' and 'bishops' etc. in groups. If you say worshipping and praying to those other than God is not idolatry, I must concude your level of denial is insanity. Or are you going to tell me my many years of personal history didn't really exist, that I just imagined it along with zillions of others in the R.C. church?? No amount of dancing or appealing to church documentation voids actual church practices, before men and more importantly before God!

jason12712

03-19-2006, 09:27 PM

still there rory? good to see you left catholicism than. It appears that the United Methodist Chrurch is following the same pattern that led the Catholic church into idolatry. (i know from being an ex-methodist.) rory, what do you say to the statutes of confirmation? are they a christian statute, or another one the catholic church slipped in their? jason

searchlight86

03-19-2006, 10:52 PM

Hi Jason, good question. True 'confirmation' is in the heart, and doesn't happen according to any prescribed rite or ritual or age or stage any more than the ordinance of baptism gives new spiritual life (pls see my book chapter that addresses water baptism for an example). It's well and good for Biblically prescribed ordinances to reflect a genuine heart relationship if present (e.g. water baptism or the 'Lord's supper', but if not present or unbiblical it becomes a type of self-righteous 'idol' to worship instead of the genuine living God (e.g. Mal. 1:6-10). If it's not clear what I'm saying here let me know and I'll clarify ok?

'Religions' build excessive structure around what is supposed to be a loving heart relationship between God and man, and then due to fallen human nature (the flesh), the structure replaces the (spiritual) relationship. Also, in most cases, the structure is adopted from pagan religions that have nothing to do with God, but have everything to do with worship of demons, who masterfully use religion as the leading method of keeping people from the true God (I Cor. 10:20). This last point doesn't necessarily apply to the Methodist case, of course, but it's good to keep the big picture in mind!

jason12712

03-19-2006, 10:56 PM

Is there a scripture concerning confimation, or do catholics and methodists put people through the process without any inward change?

jason12712

03-19-2006, 10:59 PM

Is there a scripture concerning confimation, or do catholics and methodists put people through the process without any inward change?

jason12712

03-19-2006, 10:59 PM

Is there a scripture concerning confimation, or do catholics and methodists put people through the process without any inward change?

jason12712

03-19-2006, 11:03 PM

Is there a scripture concerning confimation, or do catholics and methodists put people through the process without any inward change?

bluewater2

03-19-2006, 11:06 PM

How do you guage an inward change?

jason12712

03-19-2006, 11:27 PM

Even as an atheist would say, "He changed his mind," or even as you changed your mind, so an inward change would be a change of mind, and a change of the heart. This question was really to searchlight, a former catholic, but an inward change, i guess to an atheists could be considered reforms, yet more deeper than reforms. say since i've been a christian, and beforehand i was told i curse like a sailor, if those same people would keep company with me now, they'd notice at least a difference in my speech, because an inward change was made, so now i no longer curse. another change that (God) has made in my life is my abstinence of alcohol. but consider yourself, how do you gauge an inward change? is there anything you once did that you don't do anymore because new information was presented saying its bad for you??? Have you ever changed an old habit to where that old habit is replaced by a good habit???

dane85

03-20-2006, 01:05 AM

Hey all

My name is Danedra and I am a 2nd year college student from the univ of Edinburgh, here in the UK(Scotland).
I have observed posting here from time to time and have always found beliefs interesting.
But why are some of you saying that Catholicism is a cult? I know many people here that are Catholics and they are not cultish. Did not the Protestant belief come from Catholicism? So is it the ••••••• child of a cult? I do not think so.

Be careful what you say...people all over the world are reading.

Thanks.
PS I'm a late nighter so expect me on more often.

bluewater2

03-20-2006, 01:20 AM

Generally it is the overly intollerant Fundamentalist Christian who consider Catholicism a cult. Me, I'm an agnostic/atheist and I see all beliefs in god as a cult. Some less damaging than others. The only ones who care enough to call Catholicism a cult are the Fundies. Nuts, all of 'em.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

dane85

03-20-2006, 02:22 AM

bluewater2

Thank you for the comments. I was ready for bed and tht I would chk on any responses. I just had to respond.
I read some of the threads and comments before from others abt Catholicism and I thk you are correct. It does seem to be more from those who claim to be Christian.
As for being agnostic/atheist that's your business. Personally, I am not a church goer, but I feel I should. I believe there is a God and I have attended Mass before, but....

Anyway, thanks for the response, but I do not think they are nuts, just overly zealous for how they see the truth. Rude...yes, nuts...no

Danedra

searchlight86

03-20-2006, 04:45 AM

Jason, I don't know of any Scriptures that call for 'confirmation'. I went through the Catholic confirmation process, and it was just a ritual to me and the others I knew, as no heart change accompanied the ritual. In the R.C. infant baptism case of course, no heart change is even possible. It was like getting to the next grade in school, except supposedly on the religious instead of academic side. I did not come to a personal relationship with Christ at all in the Roman Catholic church and the concept wasn't even mentioned, despite my many years there.

searchlight86

03-20-2006, 05:09 AM

Danedra, please see third post of this thread (above), follow the link to the '20 Reasons ...' thread and see 'Roman Catholic History' section (search for this term there is easiest). I believe you will find the history very interesting, and although I don't typically use the 'cult' label about Roman Catholicism, you can clearly see why one might.

When it comes to nuts, pistachios are my favorite, but God's view is "The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God" (Psalm 14:1), and the Hebrew word for fool (nabal) means senseless or insane.

pro610

03-20-2006, 02:31 PM

All you Catholic Bashers never cease to amaze me just how foolish you really are.

You think the Protestants figured out for themselves that the Scriptures were from God? The NT was identified as Scriptures one thousand years before Luther came on the scene. The reason why you know the Bible is from God is because the Catholic Church says it is and the Protestants unwittingly follow in step to that claim, not realizing the irony that they rely on the Church's determination of authority, while casting aside its authority to teach that very same book! Go figure.

jason12712

03-20-2006, 03:27 PM

that's because the catholic's of old taught more popish doctrine than what they claimed to be the inspired word of God. it wasn't until good men like tyndale and luther saw a need for the bible to be translated into common speech so that the common people knew between Romish error, and scriptural truth, that those who are now called protestants knew the bible. otherwise, it would still be chained to the pulpit today in a latin version in the catholic church's. the early catholic church may have put together the cannon for the bible, but the early reformists translated it. let me ask you something pro? do you know latin? if you do, than you may have been able to read the bible if the RCC had it their way, if you don't, than thank God for those that made it available in english, (who incidentally where killed by the catholic church.)

pro610

03-20-2006, 03:40 PM

So your claim is that the Church is wrong in everything it says and God protected "His" book from the errors of this same Church?! Without the witness of the Church, how do you know that the Gospel of Thomas is NOT Scripture? You do not have a point of reference to make claims of what belongs and what doesn't WITHOUT the Church, because the Bible writings didn't come with a Table of Contents!

We rely COMPLETELY on the Church to tell us what is God's Word, because God doesn't come down from heaven and tell all mankind "This is my book. Listen to it" Don't you realize that the Muslims also make the same claim? Without historical evidence and people to witness it that we can trust, you got another set of wild claims without proof.

jason12712

03-20-2006, 04:12 PM

i'm not a catholic basher, but i will point out where the catholic church has erred. first, i will say to the catholic church's credit, that they probably had made the first bible. however, in the later parts of the first century (and this is my main fault as to the catholic church of that time)the RCC would kill reformists and those who would refuse to bow down to the pope or do genuflections, those who refused to parake of the eucharist, those that refused to hold mass in their churchs, and the list goes on. Now for the faults i hold against today's catholic church, i'll list them in order.

1) to pray to anyone, (as even the catholics admit they pray to the saints and the virgin mary), other than ELOHIM (being the father the son and the holy spirit) is in the act of idols. the apostle john wrote concerning this "little children, keep yourselves from idols. amen" 1 john 5:21
2) the act of the eucharist- now i will say that holy communion is an ordinance set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ. however, the catholic church has changed the blood and body Jesus spoke of during the passover as literal, while as even while Jesus, the high priest himself was there, the bread and wine did not change into his flesh and blood. therefore, for any priest to assume that he has power to change bread and wine into flesh and blood that Jesus didn't use is either a. in error or b. demonic. this doctrine of transubstantiation is therefore false, and the eucharist is a pollution of the holy communion.
3) priests not being married- if a priest claims they cannot marry because Peter, the man of God they claim to be the head of the church, was not married, they need to examine Matt. 8:14 to show that Peter was indeed married.

these are those ideas of the catholic church i find fault with

trsrinheaven

03-20-2006, 06:06 PM

If you people would look up scripture you would find the truth. All of Christianity is ONLY based upon the Bible.

If it isn't in the Bible is isn't Christianity.

Even in the primitive church in the Book of Acts, and all the epistles NEVER ARE prayers directed to Mary or dead saints! (Mt 11:28, Lk 1:46, Acts 10:25-26, 14:14-18)The Bible teaches we are to only pray to the Father in Jesus name.

Jesus had brothers and sisters Mary's other children...as stated in Mark and Galatians.
Mark 6:2-3 "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, "Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! "Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?"
And also: Galatians 1:19: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

Mary also needed a saviour. Romans3:23, 5:12, Psalm 51:5

75% of the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Catholic church are pagan in origin instituted by the Popes over the years starting in 310ad.

Even Cardinal Newman in his book states this in his book " The Development of the Christian Religion" on page 359.
The Catholic church has invented new doctrines which are CONTRARY to the clear teachings of the Bible.

You have to have somebody help you misunderstand the Bible.

The "Mother of God" worship of Mary originated in the Roman Catholic council at Ephesus in 432 AD. The Ave Maria doctrines began in 1508 and approved by Pope Sixtus V at the end of the 16th Century.

The Council of Trent committed blasphemy taking a giant apostate step declaring that "tradition is of equal authority with the Bible"
Tradition is human mans teaching from routine. The Pharizees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by human tradition nullified the commandments of God and added new ones not from God. (Read Mark 7:7-13, Col 2:8, Rev 22:18)

The apocryphal books were a later man made tradition and added to the Bible by the Council of Trent in 1546. These books were not and are not recognized as canonical by the original Jewish church (see Revelation 22:8-9)

The Catholic church even proclaims Mary was immaculately conceived. (A TOTAL COW DUNG LIE)
Pope Pius IX in 1854.

pro610

03-20-2006, 06:53 PM

Here is the facts regarding Sola Scriptura.
Part#1
1. According to 2Timothy 3:1-17, taken in context, SS is limited to the Old Testament only, and includes all of the seven Old Testament books rejected by the reformers.

2. SS does not provide the canon of inspired books within Holy Scripture.
Therefore, how does the SS believer know which books are inspired and which books are not?

3. SS does not provide us with a list of uninspired books such as the Gospels of Peter, Paul, and Thomas, and does not explain why those books are not in the SS believers Bible. How can the SS believer differentiate between which books are inspired and which are not?

4. SS does not provide us with the word "Bible". How then can an SS believer even use the word?

5. Therefore SS believers have no way of knowing that the book which they call the Bible is the Bible.

6. Since SS believers cannot show which books in the Bible are inspired,
then they have no right to even call theirs an inspired Bible.

7. SS does not provide us with the word "Trinity". So why do SS believers even use the word?

8. SS does not define the Holy Trinity. So why do SS believers think it even exists?

9. Do you believe in "Original Sin"?
Well the words "Original Sin", taken together, are not in the Bible, so how can you believe in it?

10. Do you believe in the "Incarnation"? How can you when that word is not to be found in Holy Scripture?

11. Do you believe in the "Ascension"? How can you when that word is not even in your Bible?

12. Do you believe in something called the "Rapture"? How can you when the word is not to be found in your Bible?

13. Do you believe in "Christianity"? Well that word cannot be found in the Bible either for SS believers.

14. Do "Protestants" not exist at all simply because that word cannot be found in SS?

15. Where in SS are the words, 'we are saved by faith alone'? I can find just one verse where the words "faith" and "only" are found together and there is that little word "not" before them,
"You see that by works a man is justified and not by faith only", James 2:24. I cannot seem to find words in support of 'faith alone', except in Martin Luther's German Bible, where he added the word 'alone' to Romans 3:28. The book of James was a thorn in Luther's side, as it contradicted what he taught. That is the reason why he called that book "a straw epistle", meaning it was good for burning.

pro610

03-20-2006, 06:57 PM

Part#2
16. The words "Sola Scriptura" do not appear anywhere in the Bible, so how can any SS believer possibly practice it? By its very name, Sola Scriptura, if it is not in the Bible, then it simply is not to be believed. I get that answer all the time from SS believers who try to tell me that "everything" is in the Bible, in spite of the fact that the Bible in no way says that. However, the Bible does say that everything is not in the Bible, which is just the exact opposite of what SS believers tell me. See John 20:30, and 21:25.
Who should I believe, what SS believers tell me, or what the Word of GOD says?

17. Tell me about the workings of SS at the very beginning when the Church was founded by Christ in about 30 A.D., and the first book of the New Testament, 1Thessalonians, was not written until over twenty years later? If you would read the book of Acts, you will find that the Church was growing very fast during that period. Three thousand were added in only one day in Acts 2:41, and in Acts 2:27, more were added every day. Acts 4:4 mentions five thousand more believers. How can any SS adherent explain this fabulous growth without a New Testament to guide these early believers?
Would an Old Testament SS suffice for New covenant teaching?

18. SS could not possibly have worked for the first 374 years of Christianity (assuming it began in 30 A.D.), since there was no New Testament at all as we know it until 404 A.D..

19. SS could have not possibly have worked for over one thousand years after the Latin Vulgate of 404, since the printing press was not invented until 1450 and all Bibles had to be laboriously copied by hand before then. It is estimated that each Bible took from ten to twenty years of a monks daily life to reproduce just one copy. A beautiful opulence abounded in those copies, as many were decorated with real gold and precious jewels. The cost for each was prohibitive. Who of the common masses could afford one?
If GOD needed SS then why did He wait over 1400 years before creating Gutenberg so that he could invent the printing press?

20. SS could not have worked at all with the prevalence of illiteracy running as high as 95% for so many centuries.

21. The false man-made doctrine of SS does not appear anywhere in genuine historical writings before Martin Luther came along in the sixteenth century and "invented it".

22. How does the SS believer know which SS interpretation to believe since each one is his or her own pope? One teaches one thing and another teaches just the opposite. That is the main reason why there are tens of thousands of SS believer sects* in the world today, all teaching something different, and all saying "the Holy Spirit told me". Who has the authority for the SS believer to say, "This is the one true meaning of Scripture"? The answer is that there is no authority. It is every SS believer for himself in Biblical interpretation which is forbidden by SS itself for any SS believer to do so, Acts 8:26-38, 2Peter 1:20, 2Peter 3:16.
*The World Christianity Encyclopedia, a Protestant publication. It lists 36,400 as of the middle of 2003.

pro610

03-20-2006, 07:02 PM

Part#3
23. If "everything is in the Bible", so I am told by SS believers, then why do SS believers not believe and practice all of Scripture? Why do they reject large portions of it? Here are some examples of what they reject:
* The three verses I just listed which collectively say there is to be no private interpretation of Holy Scripture.
* 1Corinthians 11:2 and 2Thessalonians 2:15, which say to hold the traditions. SS believers say do not hold traditions.
* 1Timothy 3:15, does not say the bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, but it is the Church.
* John 10:16, that there shall be one fold and one shepherd, and not the tens of thousands that SS believers have formed.
* 1Corinthians 1:10, that you all say the same thing and that there be no dissensions. Well I have just shown that all of the thousands of sects teach different things, and it is dissensions which cause them to split and form even more sects.
* John chapter 6 which SS believers say is symbolic, yet the same ones say that the rest of the Bible is literal.
* Matthew 16:18 that Jesus said church and not tens of thousands of churches.
* Matthew 28:20 where Jesus Christ promised to be with His one Church every day in every century until the end of time.
* Luke 1:48, 'Henceforth', means from this moment on. 'All generations', means just that and I presume that it includes everyone who is reading this file. 'Will', is a command and not a suggestion. 'Call me blessed'. In all of my extensive conversations with SS believers, not a single one has ever obeyed the command of this verse. This verse is proof positive that SS believers do not follow Holy Scripture, but pick and choose what fits their false beliefs. It is a clear violation of James 2:10,
"If someone obeys all of GOD's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them."
* Luke 2:51, Scripture tells us that the creator of the universe was subject to a creature, His Mother, Blessed Mary, for the first 30 years of His life. Why don't SS believers acknowledge this fact?
* Deuteronomy 4:2, 13:1, Proverbs 30:5-6, Revelation 22:18-20, 'Do not add to or subtract from Holy Scripture' (see #24 below).
* Deuteronomy 12:8, 'You shall not do as we are now doing; here, everyone does what seems right for himself'.
This is yet another condemnation of individual interpretation of Holy Scripture. "If it fits my interpretation it is right for me".
* Revelation 21:8, 21:27 and 22:15, that liars will never make it into heaven.
* Romans 1:18 and 2:8, meet with wrath for those who are contentious and do not submit to the truth. Well I have shown from this lengthy list that SS believers are guilty as charged for closing their eyes and ignoring the verses I have listed in this section. They certainly do not submit to the truth of Holy Scripture. Isn't saying that they obey Holy Scripture, while at the same time ignoring large sections of it, being hypocritical?

searchlight86

03-20-2006, 08:56 PM

610, how do you justify the idolatry I personally experienced and witnessed for many years at multiple Roman Catholic churches? Or do you maintain that the obvious idolatry (you know, the kind about chanting rote prayers to idols as I was taught by the clergy) wasn't idolatry?

dane85

03-20-2006, 09:22 PM

searchlight86

Thank you for the reference link. I read most of it and find some of it hard to believe. But as I read the post from other people I noticed the mention of NTCC and a HOP. Is NTCC something about N.....? T....? Catholic Church? Maybe Non-Traditional or something?

And what is HOP? Did they mean HOPE?

Excuse my ignorance of these terms, I told you I am not much of a church person.

Also, plz do not take offence at me not believing all that was written about the Catholic church. I just find it difficult to fathom that the Catholic church had something to do with the Nazi party and later helping them find refuge.

Danedra

pro610

03-20-2006, 09:42 PM

Search,
I have yet to see any Catholic document that says Catholics are to worship idols.

Part#1
Idol:
An image used as an object of worship. A false GOD.
This is how the dictionary defines an idol.

Image:
A reproduction of the form of a person or an object.
An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative
reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction of an object
formed by a lens or a mirror.
This is what the dictionary says an image is. It could be a statue, icon, or
even a photograph.

Worship:
The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
This the definition given by the dictionary.

Do you have a photograph of a loved one? Do you worship it? I doubt it.
Maybe you only use the picture to remind yourself of that person. Isn't
that right?
What about the statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial?
Do you or anyone else worship it or any other statue? Of course not.
Then why is the statue there? It is to remind us of what a great man he was
and in an image to which we can relate.

It is the same situation in the Catholic Church. The statues in the Catholic Church are there to remind us of our founder, Jesus Christ, His mother,
and the great saints of the Church.

"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky
above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth."
Exodus 20:4
GOD clearly said make no images.

"And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a seraph (snake) and mount it on a
pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it he will recover."
Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze
serpent, he recovered."
Numbers 21:8-9
GOD clearly said make an image.

Now is this a Bible conflict, or a misunderstanding, or misinterpretation
by someone? It has to be one or the other.

"So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron, who accepted their offering, and fashioned this gold with a graving tool, made a golden calf. Then they cried out, 'this is your GOD, O Israel, who brought
you out of the land of Egypt'."
Exodus 32:3-4
This is a clear violation of the first commandment. They had accepted and
made for themselves a false god. So how did GOD respond?

"Thus the Lord smote the people for having had Aaron make the calf for
them."
Exodus 32:35
It is clear that GOD again said make no idols.

"Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory,
fasten them so that one cherub springs direct from each end."
Exodus 25:17-18
Another clear message directly from GOD to make idols. Did you notice that these gold cherubim were to be mounted atop the most sacred object on earth, the Ark of the Covenant?

pro610

03-20-2006, 09:44 PM

Part#2
Chapters 5 and 6 of 1Kings tell of the building of Solomon's Temple as
commanded by GOD, and decorating it inside with...
"And he made in the oracle two cherubim of olive tree, of ten cubits in
height."
1Kings 6:23
Yet another command from GOD to make idols.
These idols were huge, as one cubit is about eighteen inches. That makes
each one fifteen feet tall.

So what do we have here? Are there more Bible conflicts than we realized,
or are we missing something?

Do you see the pattern here? It is very clear.
GOD had said to make images that come from GOD but make no images
that are against Him...

1. Angels are Saints, St. Michael, St. Raphael, St. Gabriel.
2. There are many Saints who never were Angels, St. Mary, St. Peter, etc.
3. Saints are of GOD so what is the problem of having a statue of them?
4. Jesus Christ is certainly of GOD, so what is the problem of having a
crucifix to remind us of the passion He suffered for each of us?
5. Catholics, when praying before a statue are not petitioning to the statue,
but to the person of whom it represents.
6. Now if you think petitioning Saints is wrong, I suggest you refer to
Rev 5:8, and Rev 8:1-4

Now I have to ask once more, for those who accuse Catholics of
idol worship, show me your documentation which 'proves' what you say.

leftin1991

03-20-2006, 10:30 PM

Statues in the church break the second commandment against graven images... So the RCC actually REMOVED that commandment from the Decalogue, and created their own 10 Commandments! They omitted the 2nd entirely, and created another one by splitting the 10th commandment into two pieces. They also changed the meaning and intent of the 4th commandment to apply to Sunday instead of Saturday.

searchlight86

03-21-2006, 12:08 AM

610, I lived it. I have friends who lived it. Sorry if you don't like my 'documentation' $| Which you wouldn't accept anyway, if truth were told. Eyewitness testimony is considered the strongest form of legal evidence, so if you won't accept that, you're not going to accept anything. I wish I could help more, but am skeptical of your openness to anything anyone could say or do at the present time no matter how true or important.

pro610

03-21-2006, 01:14 AM

Search,
Quote
""610, I lived it. I have friends who lived it. Sorry if you don't like my 'documentation' $| Which you wouldn't accept anyway, if truth were told. Eyewitness testimony is considered the strongest form of legal evidence, so if you won't accept that, you're not going to accept anything. I wish I could help more, but am skeptical of your openness to anything anyone could say or do at the present time no matter how true or important.""

What you fail to understand is that I realize that many other people read these posts and the difference between you and me is that NONE of this is about ME.
I present the TRUTH for others to see,I do it out of love for other,s because there is so many lies and attacks on Christ,s Church.

Keep searching Brother.

Peace in Christ.

searchlight86

03-21-2006, 02:56 AM

Yo, I'm not searching in that sense. It's not about me either, and my sincere motive is to edify others in Christ, to His complete glory and none of my own. The only reason I presented personal experience is because it is genuine eyewitness testimony. Again, you jump to a false conclusion and resort to personal attack. Can't you see the pattern?

The word venerate in Roman Catholic church documentation covers a multitude of idolatrous sins before God. In actual Roman Catholic practice, 'veneration' of 'Mary' (not based on the Biblical Mary!), angels, 'saints', and the Pope is worship, no different in practice than prayers and worship to God. Again in practice, most R.C.'s I know prefer praying to 'Mary', so she gets preeminence over God! Do you really think God cares what word is used?!

Open your eyes, my friend. I know it is extremely difficult, but there are likely eternal consequences at stake for you and those you love. Please stop and think about it seriously, and don't just argue any way you can.

searchlight86

03-21-2006, 08:15 AM

pro, regarding supposed Bible conflicts over idols, there are none:

Cherubim in the holy of holies above the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant (Exod. 25:17-22) pictured guarding the way back to Eden, and overseeing the first blood sacrifice by God Himself to clothe our first parents in His righteousness, according to His unimaginable love (Gen. 3:21-24). Only the high priest entered there once a year, and the focus was the blood on the mercy seat picturing Christ - cherubim were never an object of worship whatsoever (Exod. 37:6-9, Heb. 9:1-7).

Note what Hezekiah did to the brazen serpent when it became an idol: "And he did [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan" (II Kings 18:3-4).

As Hezekiah broke in pieces the brazen serpent that became an idol, so the Roman Catholic church must break in pieces its present day idols that millions burn incense and candles to, if it is to be "right in the sight of the Lord."

searchlight86

03-21-2006, 09:00 AM

Hi again Danedra. You're welcome, and I'm not offended at all, in fact I can well understand why you would find some of the history difficult to believe! It is pretty fantastic, and would be hard to imagine if it weren't accurate. There are many sources regarding the Vatican/Nazi connection, for one see the following link: http://news.suc.org/bydate/2006/January_18/22.html.

NTCC stands for 'New Testament Christian Church' and HOP stands for 'House of Prayer', which was kind of a spin-off of NTCC. There are serious issues with both these organizations, which you can see for yourself at http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/15577.html.

If you want more info on anything, please feel free to post here or email me at r0ryr@hotmail.com. It is of no value in itself to be religious, but vitally important to get past all the religious deceptions and establish a living relationship with the one genuine God of love and truth. Be careful of religion in general - nowadays most of it is counterfeit designed to keep one from truth, but thankfully not all.

pro610

03-21-2006, 06:40 PM

Leftin1991,
Quote
""Statues in the church break the second commandment against graven images... So the RCC actually REMOVED that commandment from the Decalogue, and created their own 10 Commandments! They omitted the 2nd entirely, and created another one by splitting the 10th commandment into two pieces. They also changed the meaning and intent of the 4th commandment to apply to Sunday instead of Saturday.""

1. Look at the Exodus version of the Scriptures. This is the traditional Catholic layout of the Ten Commandments. Note, a few chapters later, when God is telling Moses how to build the ARK of the COVENANT, God tells Moses to build what? a cherubim (an angel) on the cover!!! Apparently, God is not telling us to not have images - God is telling us to not WORSHIP statues and images as if they were God!
The Church's "splitting of the last two commandments" means that women are not considered property. Thus, there is a separate commandment for coveting your neighbor's wife, and another for property. Catholics don't consider women property.

2. The Church has the power to bind and loosen. Thus, the Church met on Sundays (the Lord's Day - the day of the Resurrection) to "break the bread". The early Church continued both the synagogue practice on Saturday and the Breaking of the Bread on Sunday. But when the Christians were kicked out of the synagogue less than one hundred years after Christ's resurrection, the Christians just did both on Sunday. Scripture was preached, and the Bread was broken during the Christian Sabbath.

pro610

03-21-2006, 07:03 PM

Jason,
Quote'
""first, i will say to the catholic church's credit, that they probably had made the first bible. however, in the later parts of the first century (and this is my main fault as to the catholic church of that time)the RCC would kill reformists and those who would refuse to bow down to the pope or do genuflections, those who refused to parake of the eucharist, those that refused to hold mass in their churchs, and the list goes on. Now for the faults i hold against today's catholic church, i'll list them in order.""

Response;
There is no actual evidence for this history of the Catholic Church. It is, of course, nonsense, because the Church didn’t kill people for refusing to genuflect or any such thing. Consider during the first 300 years, Catholicism was an outlaw religion. It seems a strange way to win adherents, considering they were persecuted unto death!

Quote:
""1) to pray to anyone, (as even the catholics admit they pray to the saints and the virgin mary), other than ELOHIM (being the father the son and the holy spirit) is in the act of idols. the apostle john wrote concerning this "little children, keep yourselves from idols. amen" 1 john 5:21""

Response;
Catholics don’t pray “TO” anyone but God. While some people use that term “to”, it is a misunderstanding of Catholic practice and linguistics. We pray to God, as only HE can grant graces that enable us to come to Him.
You must agree, however, that the New Testament is full of exhortations to pray for the sake of other Christians. Paul over and over asks for the prayers of fellow Christians, and gives them, as well. I imagine even you have asked others to pray for You. The concept of asking for the prayers of saints and Mary in heaven is exactly the same as you asking for intercessionary prayers from earthly “saints”. Would you agree that “nothing can separate us from the love of Christ?” Not even death? (Rom 8:38). And what about “the prayers of a righteous man are truly effective” (James 5:16)? Thus, put the two together, and we find a TRULY righteous person (can’t get much more righteous than being in heaven) – who is NOT separated from Christ, praying for our sake. This actually is a practice that goes back to pre-Christian beliefs, found in 2 Maccabees, for example. Perhaps you do not believe in their divine inspiration, but they DO record the practice as historical correct and preceding even the Christian era.

pro610

03-21-2006, 07:15 PM

Jason,(Continued...)

Quote;
""2) the act of the eucharist- now i will say that holy communion is an ordinance set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ. however, the catholic church has changed the blood and body Jesus spoke of during the passover as literal, while as even while Jesus, the high priest himself was there, the bread and wine did not change into his flesh and blood. therefore, for any priest to assume that he has power to change bread and wine into flesh and blood that Jesus didn't use is either a. in error or b. demonic. this doctrine of transubstantiation is therefore false, and the eucharist is a pollution of the holy communion.""

Response;
The bread and wine didn’t change into Christ’s Body and Blood! So now, Jason believes our Lord and Savior is a liar? (“And as they were eating, Jesus took the bread and, having blessed [it], broke [it] and gave [it] to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is my body. Mat 26:26). THIS is My Body. Pretty clear. Now. Perhaps you are confused by the outward appearances. “it doesn’t look like Jesus, thus the bread didn’t change”. Well, the burning bush was also recognized as God’s presence by Moses – while it still retained the appearance of a bush. Form does not make up the essence of something. In John 6, Jesus promised that He expected His disciples to EAT His Body! Literally. The Jews understood this – and left Him.

(“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye shall have no life in you. Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father, so he that eats me, he shall also live by me.” John 6:53-57)

Jesus repeats over and over again, in the clearest possible words, that we must eat His Body to attain eternal life! It is a difficult teaching because we are thinking in human terms.

(“The Spirit is he that gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken unto you, [they] are Spirit and [they] are life.” John 6:63)

By using our fleshy brains to figure out the Eucharist is of no avail. A mind dominated by the flesh insists upon understanding before it will believe. Only through the Holy Spirit can we receive the enlightenment and faith to believe this teaching – as the Gospel tells us

(No one can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day”. John 6:44)

IF the Eucharist is meant as a symbol alone, the Christians would have been better served to merely call it that! But we note that these writers did NOT deny this strange and difficult teaching. NO Christian writer of antiquity calls the Eucharist a symbol ONLY. This leaves us with one response. Jason, why don,t you agree with the first Christians who actually heard Christ’s words and taught their followers that Christ’s Body is present in sacramental form during the Eucharist?

pro610

03-21-2006, 07:18 PM

Jason,(Continued...)
Quote:
""3) priests not being married- if a priest claims they cannot marry because Peter, the man of God they claim to be the head of the church, was not married, they need to examine Matt. 8:14 to show that Peter was indeed married.""

Response;
Being married is a discipline, not a dogma. Dogma is unchangeable doctrines of the faith. Disciplines are rules of the Church given to a particular people and time. Orthodox priests could marry before the Schism. Not marrying is a Western discipline that men bound themselves to so that they may become priests in the Latin Rite. Thus, this is more a misunderstanding on your part. This is shouldn’t be an issue – as the Church never calls it a part of our faith. The Church continues to grant dispensations to those married clergy who convert to Catholicism and are married. Thus, ALL priests of the Latin Rite are NOT celibate! It is a discipline, which is an ecclesiastical rule that COULD change.

apilgrims

03-24-2006, 04:53 PM

Hello there! I'm new, too, Danedra- and I had a couple of quick comments to make about this discussion.

I am so sorry for the experiences you had in the Catholic Church, leftin1991. The Church has been going through a terrible time the last few decades, the catechesis has by and large been awful, and you were given a bum steer about how Catholics should think of the saints and of Mary. No wonder you left! I had the same bad teaching but by God's grace I finally managed to find out what the Church actually teaches.

The way I teach my kids about the saints is this: they are our big brothers and sisters in Heaven. They have run the race and won the prize, and are passionately devoted to each of us making it to Heaven, too.

"Praying" is just another word for "asking"- (from the Latin "precari" meaning "to ask earnestly, request") in Shakespeare we see "I pray thee" meaning "I ask you"-- so "praying to" the saints is just asking them for their prayers for us, the same way I would (and do!) ask you to pray for me.

Certainly there have been and still are imperfect, flawed people who get it wrong and elevate these brothers and sisters beyond the respectful, loving admiration every Christian should have for those who love Christ above all things. But that is not the teaching of the Catholic Church, nor has it ever been.

Danedra, searchlight, leftin1991-- and anyone who is interested in knowing what the Church teaches--read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (not just parts of it! Understanding the rich heritage of the Church is like looking at a gigantic and beautiful tapestry- if you stare up close at just a few places, the big picture will escape you and it may seem unintelligible or even grotesque, until you take in the whole)-- get it "from the horse's mouth" so that, even if you reject it, you know exactly what you are rejecting. Not something some rotten catechist or deeply confused human being may have foisted on you at some point. Here it is online:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

You all seem like wonderful, passionate, informed people who are "on the road" that leads to Christ.
}
I pray you, pray for me!

With love-
Nancy

leftin1991

03-25-2006, 02:18 AM

Thank you for your gracious words, apilgrim. I do not discount everything about Catholicism as irrelevant, as I have gleaned small bits and pieces of knowledge from them. But I did not leave it because of bad things I saw so much as my sense that the religion is not Christ-centered and Scripture-centered nearly so much as it is Mary-centered and ritual-centered.

Yes, Catholicism has truly been shaken, but this is as it should be for the Scriptures say that in the last days everything that can be shaken shall be shaken. (Heb. 12)

pro610: So you are telling me that Roman Catholicism "improved" the 10 commandments?? That would imply that the way God initially issued them was inferior! What a wonderful implication, thank you... You would do well to consider the Scripture at the end of that chapter: (Ex. 20:25) -- "If thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." Your so-called "church" has polluted the commandments of God.

So how does the distinction between making an image and worshipping it (which sometimes happened even with a God-ordained image! - Num. 21:9, 2 Kings 18:4) justify the removing of the second commandment entirely from the Decalogue??!

egk

03-25-2006, 07:18 AM

Leftin1991 andPro610,

If I may interject a comment about the 10 commandments. The Hebrew text does not given divisions as to where one commandment begins and the other ends. There are at least 3 different groupings of the commandments: The "Protestant"
(and I believe Jewish one), the "Catholic" one, and the Samaritian one. In the Samaritian Torah, I was told, the "Protestant" first commandment is not even considered a commandment, but an introduction. They have added a new commandment at the end, to worship only on mount Gezer (sp?) I'm not suggesting that this is the correct division. I'm only using this to show that the divisions of the commandments is not clearly shown in the text.

EGK

pro610

03-25-2006, 02:48 PM

Good point EGK,
Thank you.

Leftin1991,
Here is a good explanation of all of this
Part#1
http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

Excerpt;
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

pro610

03-25-2006, 02:50 PM

Part#2
excerpt;
Hiding the Second Commandment?

Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066).

arron

03-25-2006, 05:33 PM

you better take what the bible says and quit listening to traditions and such foolishness. the pope has no power or athority to fogive sins. GOD lone does this. you do pray to and before statues and ask... DEAD ..saint for help.that is withcraft. and foolishness

pro610

03-25-2006, 06:24 PM

Arron,
The Catholic Church DOES NOT ever say the Pope forgives sins.
Stop posting lies on subjects that you know nothing about!
Be careful of your lying tongue Brother!
Here is some scripture,I suggest you read it and reflect on it!

(James 3:1-10)
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
For we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.

Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.

So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!

And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.

But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men,who have been made in the likeness of God;
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
{James 3:1-10}

apilgrims

03-25-2006, 06:48 PM

Arron- saints are not dead- they have died and are alive in Christ- and through His grace they can and do pray for us. That's the power of almighty God, not witchcraft.

pro610

03-25-2006, 07:36 PM

Apilgrims,
Arron is a nice guy.

My prayer for arron is that he seeks the truth and avoids confusion.

Welcome to the discussion board Sister,I,m sure you will contribute with the peace and love of Christ that abides in you.

There is a lot of Catholic bashing here, but we can look to scripture as to understand why.

"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
John 15:18-19
The Catholic Church is certainly not of the world, for it is:

A City set on a Mountain, Matthew 5:14.
A Dwelling Place for GOD, Ephesians 2:22.
A Spiritual House, 1Peter 2:5.
GOD's Building, 1Corinthians 3:9.
Mount Zion, Psalms 2:6, Micah 4:7, Hebrews 12:22.
My Church, Matthew 16:18.
Our Mother, Galatians 4:26.
The Bride of Christ, Joel 2:16, John 3:29, Revelation 21:2.
The Body of Christ, Ephesians 1:22-23, Colossians 1:24.
The Church of GOD, Acts 20:28.
The Church of the Firstborn, Hebrews 12:23.
The City of the Living GOD, Hebrews 12:22.
The City of Truth, Zechariah 8:3.
The Congregation of Saints, Psalms 149:1.
The Daughter of the King, Psalms 45:13.
The dispenser of the Wisdom of GOD, Ephesians 3:7-11.
The final authority of GOD on earth, Matthew 18:15-18.
The Fold of Christ, John 10:16.
The Heavenly Jerusalem, Galatians 4:26.
The Holy City, Revelation 21:2.
The Holy Mountain, Zechariah 8:3.
The House of Christ, Hebrews 3:6.
The House of GOD, 1Timothy 3:15, Hebrews 10:21.
The Household of GOD, Ephesians 2:19.
The Kingdom of GOD, Luke 4:43.
The Kingdom of Heaven, Matthew 13:31.
The Lamb's Spouse, Revelation 19:7,21:9
The New Jerusalem, Isaiah 65:18, Revelation 3:12,21:2.
The Pillar and Foundation of Truth, 1Timothy 3:15

Since the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, it must experience the same passion as He did. He was persecuted and calumnized unjustly, and so must His Church suffer the same trials.
The persecutors and calumnizers should realize that when they attack the Catholic Church, they are really attacking its founder, Jesus Christ Himself.

apilgrims

03-25-2006, 08:35 PM

Thanks for the welcome, pro610! I reread my post and it sounds a little snippy, so I apologize to Arron if I put him off in any way. I'm sorry, Arron!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

That said, I have to tell you I am so heartened by your ministry on these boards, pro610! I am a homeschooling mother of seven who LOVES the Lord and my wonderful life, but everyone in my house has been throwing up all week, my dryer is broken, it's the middle of Lent and the weather here in Michigan is... subpar.
I rarely have a chance to go online but I was so downhearted-- I needed to hear from my Christian brothers and sisters and ended up at Factnet.
Your courage, clarity, and humility have delighted me and I want to thank you for being such a great defensor fidei. You're kind of the Catholic Lone Ranger around here aren't you...
"Who was that masked man?... And we didn't even get a chance to thank him!"
Thank you! And ride on in Christ!

leftin1991

03-25-2006, 10:22 PM

pro610: I am not bashing the holy catholic church, nor any sincere believers therein. I am only reproving their history of blasphemy, false teachings, and unrighteous practices. Lent is a heathen season, a commandment of men, and has NO Biblical support.

Apilgrims: You have lied on God! The apostles & saints of all time are asleep until the resurrection. King David is not ascended into the heavens (Acts 2:34), nor are the holy apostles and prophets. Yes our spirit returns to God (Ecc. 3:21, 12:7), but our body and soul are asleep in the dust of the earth (Dan. 12:2). The dead praise not the LORD (Ps. 115:17). The dead know nothing at all! (Ecc. 9:5) At the time of the second coming the saved of all ages will rise. Since saints are dead and cannot hear you, the Catholic church has substituted DEMONS. That is because it is a doctrine of devils to practice necromancy (Deut. 18:11), or talking to the dead. Any man who practices the necromancy of asking dead saints to intercede belongs to "the congregation of the dead" (Prov. 21:16) whether he knows it or not!

apilgrims

03-26-2006, 03:15 AM

But, leftin1991, what about when our Lord says to the Good Thief, "Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise"? Luke 23:43

pro610

03-26-2006, 03:03 PM

apilgrims,
Thank you for the kind words Sister.

You have seven children?
God Bless you!
I will certainly pray for you.
I thought my 2 daughters were a handful and have always said that my wife has the patience of a saint.

Peace in Christ

leftin1991

03-26-2006, 10:01 PM

Yes indeed, the thief will be with Christ in paradise! The misunderstanding enters because of a simple punctuation transposition, which did not exist at all in Hebrew or Greek:

It should not be rendered:
"Amen I say to thee: This day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

But should more properly be:
"Amen I say to thee this day: Thou shalt be with me in paradise."

The reasoning for this is, that Christ did not go to paradise! He first descended into the lower parts of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights: Mat. 12:40, Acts 2:27, Eph. 4:9. He did not ascend until six weeks later, just 10 days before Pentecost: Acts 1:3. If King David was among those whose tombs were opened in Mat. 27:52-53, he evidently returned to his grave and lay back down because Peter the apostle explicitly says that he (implying all other Old Testament saints as well) is NOT yet in heaven. (John 3:13, Acts 2:29, 34)

johndoe

03-27-2006, 01:49 PM

This has been an interesting discussion to say the least. As a practicing Catholic that attended a Catholic grade school up until 1998 (which makes me 21 currently) I just want to clear a few things up.

1) searchlight86: After reading your posts, it seems to me that you were either misinformed in your catholic training, or else, at a young age did not understand the meaning of your teachers, whether they were priests, nuns, parents, etc... I'm speaking specifically about the idolatry issue. Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, or in any way worship them, but rather ask the saints and Mary to INTERCEDE for us, to PRAY TO GOD FOR US. This is what I was taught in grade school and what I know to be taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I winced every time you said you were taught to "pray to" Mary or the saints in your posts as I know this wouldn't have been the case unless whoever said this misunderstood the church's teaching. We can speak to God ourselves, too, if we like; asking the saints to intercede for us is simply an option.

2) Everyone: This Catholic bashing (and it is) is not grounded in the truth, in the current Catholic teaching. The Catholic church is far from perfect, it has made mistakes, big mistakes, (I shouldn't even call them mistakes because they were far more than that) in its well documented history. We acknowledge this and deeply regret it. I am personally disgusted by parts of the Catholic history. However, we also acknowledge the fact that we, humans, are not perfect, that we are far from perfect, and that just because mistakes were made does not completely discredit the church or what it stands for, that Jesus Christ died to save us. I mean, have we all not made mistakes. I know I have. The important thing is to learn from these mistakes and grow... something which the Catholic church is constantly doing. That is the beauty of it. There are things that have changed (thanks to the 2nd Vatican Council for instance - mass in the language of the people attending among other important changes) and things that will change in the future. We believe the bible and the Catholic teachings that stem from the bible are not static. They are a dynamic set of teachings, some historic, some metaphorical, that are constantly being reinterpreted. Anyway... I think some of the sources you are all using to learn about the Catholic church are severely outdated. As
apilgrims suggested, check up on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and other official and CURRENT documents. Then we can all be on the same page. Thanks so much. Your brother in Christ, P

johndoe

03-27-2006, 01:53 PM

leftin1991

03-27-2006, 03:09 PM

I appreciate your spirit, P. I also spent some years in Catholic school, and after being likewise appalled by the history of the Catholic church I withdrew to search for truth among the most radical "Antipas" (anti-pope, Rev. 2:13) or anti-Catholic sects I could find! Well they are all marked with an 'A', and these have primarily included the Anabaptists, the Apostolics, and the Adventists. I believe these groups all earn an 'A' with God for upholding the truth as it has been revealed to them. I am satisfied with what I have learned. None of these sects have it all, individually. If only they would have the charity to listen to each other! Occasionally I am pleasantly surprised when I hear the Roman Catholic church also boldly proclaiming some truth. But then I just remember, even a broken clock is right twice a day. ;-)

pro610

03-27-2006, 04:27 PM

leftin1991,Apilgrims,

Quote
"" You have lied on God! The apostles & saints of all time are asleep until the resurrection""

Left1991,you are confusing your old testament with your New Testament.

Early Church writers wrote that old testament Saints were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of HEAVEN.

Left1991, What Christian denomination or group do you belong to?

pro610

03-27-2006, 05:33 PM

left1991,
I see on another thread that you referenced the site aliyah.com.

This group does not believe in the Trinity much like the JW,s and others.

pro610

03-27-2006, 06:19 PM

Left1991
I did a little research on aliyah.com
They make the claim that the Trinity teachings did not come into the Church until the 4th Century.
This is a bold face LIE!
Here,s the proof that the early church fathers in the 2nd century knew of the Trinity.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0606.htm
Saint GREGORY THAUMATURGUS lived in the second Century 213-died 270-75

Do you know why the Early church fathers taught the Trinity?

Its because the APOSTLES knew it to be TRUE!

If you go down the path saying that the early Church Father,s were lying its going to lead you the closest living people to the apostles.

Now are you going to say the Aposles were lying?

jason12712

03-27-2006, 06:55 PM

"Amen I say to thee: This day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

it should even still be rendered
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

leftin1991

03-27-2006, 07:08 PM

I understand that trinitarian concepts and their underlying ideas existed in some areas of the church during the post-apostolic age (second century), but it was not codified and foisted upon the church until the 4th century, 325 A.D., at the Council of Nicaea. But this is no surprise, for before Paul died he said "the mystery of iniquity doth already work," and "Beware lest any man spoil you" because "after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in... speaking perverse things." (2 Thes. 2:7, Col. 2:8, Acts 20:29-30).

The gnosticism in Colossians 2 closely resembles monastic Catholicism of the Dark Ages. Roman Catholicism is a syncretism of paganism, Judaism, Gnosticism, and Christian teachings, including a re-establishment (perversion) of the O.T. priesthood, and thus they "hold not the head." (2:19) They have supplanted legitimate and meaningful O.T. feasts that are rich in typical significance, with pagan holidays. They have also perverted the Sabbath and the 10 Commandments. In the Dark Ages they compelled Jewish converts to eat pork to "prove" their conversion, and yet today compel their people to drink alcholic wine in order to observe communion. They swoon over "angelic-like" apparitions. They also have Godhead problems, almost putting Mary into the Godhead (quadritarian?), invoke demons by praying to dead saints, and mixing Greek polytheism into their teaching as a result of Constantine's Mithraism. [N.B. - This also has to do with why Paul was forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Bithynia (Acts 16:6-7), because that is where Nicea was located! The council of Nicea happens to be where Catholic Godhead doctrine was formulated.]

Catholicism is Gnosticism reborn, and it was in its embryonic stages in Colosse. Colosse was adjacent to Laodicea (4:15-16), in the "7 Churches" area of Phrygia and Lydia. The roots of Roman Catholicism (e.g., the deeds/doctrine of the Nicolaitanes) can clearly be seen at work in this area (Rev. 2-3). Rome's tritheism is a form of condensed polytheism, and is a perversion of Bible truth!

apilgrims

03-27-2006, 07:16 PM

Leftin 1991:
We could have a whole discussion about Masoretic punctuation and the possible interpretations of the original Aramaic- incidentally there isn't an intact, complete original Aramaic Bible in existence. But this seems a questionable way to gain any certainty about what Christ was saying.

In law there is a principle of reading documents called the plain meaning approach, or what is the meaning that is most likely to reasonable people. Incorporated in this approach is an examination of the other writings or sayings of the author (Speaker) to see how they habitually used language. When Christ speaks in the Nazorean temple he says, "And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears." He means, quite literally, that the Scriptures were being fulfilled that very day in that very place.
Similarly when He is speaking in Matthew 10:15, He means the day of Judgment and He clearly says the day of Judgment.

We can argue all day, and we can get twenty more people involved who will each have a slight variation of the argument. I guess the thing is that I believe He meant what He said when He said He was establishing a Church, His Church, not millions of individual churches, each trying to reinvent His wheel. Did He promise this Church would be perfect and filled with perfect people? Of course not. Look who He picked as His disciples. Flawed, flawed men. Just like us.
God bless and help us.

jason12712

03-27-2006, 07:44 PM

leftin1991, if i remember right, you are of that sect the sabbaterians, correct? i was in my daily bible reading and i stumbled upon something that made me think of ya'll. the scripture comes from colossians 2

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

now my friend, in no way am i trying to twist the scriptures, but finding this, it thought it was another piece of scripture to through on the table. God bless you

pro610

03-27-2006, 07:48 PM

left,
Quote,
""I understand that trinitarian concepts and their underlying ideas existed in some areas of the church during the post-apostolic age (second century), but it was not codified and foisted upon the church until the 4th century, 325 A.D.,""

So What!
Don,t you understand that it took the early Church fathers hundreds of years to agree on how documents were written?

Just take the Bible for example,It did not just fall out of the sky.

Gathering information to put in writing was very cumbersome in those days.

Maybe if they had e-mail I would believe you!

pro610

03-27-2006, 07:54 PM

apilgrims,
Excellent post Sister!(I see you were hiding some of your knowledge)

Peace in Christ

leftin1991

03-27-2006, 10:12 PM

Jason,
You are correct, Colossians 2:16-17 is very pertinent, but most certainly applies to Roman Catholicism!

Romanism judges:

In meat - RCC "judges" or rules over believers by commanding meatless Fridays (except for fish, as evidenced by the crowd at Long John Silver's every Friday). During the Dark Ages, Jewish converts were required to eat pork to "prove" the sincerity of their conversions. This is a doctrine of devils according to St. Paul in 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

In drink - RCC imposes alcoholic wine upon its communicants.

In respect of a holy day - RCC rejects the true Biblical feast days, and imposes its obnoxious and offensive pagan holidays upon society in general. Protestantism once banned "Christ's Mass" in Britain and the USA, and is wrong today to allow themselves to be "judged" (ruled over) by RCC. Their complex formula for determining the variable date of Easter (as early as late March of as late as early May) is set so that it will NEVER coincide with Passover. That is because they don't want people to make a connection between the Passover Lamb with their "Easter ham"!

New Moon - Our goofy "Gregorian" calendar is largely the by-product of the RCC, as decreed by Pope Gregory XIII. I see no reason why Christians should not still be using the Jewish (Biblical) calendar, in which new months are based on the new moons. (The word "month" is derived from "moon.") But that would just make too much sense, wouldn't it?

Sabbath day(s) - RCC has imposed its counterfeit "Sabbath" of Sun-Day upon the world. They "judged" or ruled over sabbatarians during the Dark Ages by executing them! In 1996, John Paul II appealed to Catholics AND non-Catholics alike for a return of the "blue laws" worldwide!

FYI, I have at least two years of experience in each of the following: RCC, independent fundamental Baptist, Assembly of God, NTCC (New Testament Christian Churches), Apostolic (United Pentecostal Church), Mennonite, and now 7th-Day Church of God. I trust that each step I took was a step up in God.

(Message edited by leftin1991 on March 27, 2006)

jason12712

03-28-2006, 01:21 PM

i've thought about the austere mennonites, is it a good church? I've never been, but i've heard of them. I think that they and the amish have an old-fashioned religion. let me know a little about your experience there if you wouldn't mind. jason12712@yahoo.com

searchlight86

04-03-2006, 06:20 AM

Hey Jason. For what it's worth, I would recommend a 'good' non-denom Bible church, if you're thinking of moving. Most denomination trains have gone off the tracks, and finding a good non-denominational one is not so simple either.

If you like, I have a questionnaire I developed to interview pastors etc. to help evaluate churches or schools. You could modify it to your liking, and of course some issues are more important than others.

I would post it here, but it's kind of long, not sure anyone else wants to see it, and the Word doc is useful so you would get the formatting. If you want I'll send it to you, just email me at r0ryr@hotmail.com.

Grace and Peace, rory

searchlight86

04-04-2006, 12:08 AM

P, I also appreciate the spirit of your post. Even if you are technically correct about Mary, angels, saints etc. acting as mediators, there is not to be any mediator for prayer other than Jesus Christ, and no one is to be petitioned anyone other than God Himself:

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [i]For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:1-5).

According to the Holy Scriptures, the effective worship and prayers to those other than God, intended as mediators or not, along with burning incense and candles to them, is absolutely idolatry.

rachelengland

11-13-2007, 06:41 PM

It's Time to Stop Superstitions!

The movie The Exorcist is a fictional film about Satan taking over the body and soul of a little girl. The key word is "FICTION"! The powerful Roman Catholic Church is trying to portray this ungodly nonsense as truth and reality for their own selfish purposes!

In an article titled "In Good Faith - Cast Out Demons", the FOX News station for St. Louis, Missouri, USA is giving this topic serious attention! They quote, without criticism, the Catholic Church's leading expert on exorcisms, Father Jose Antonio Fortea as saying, "Everything that appears in the film happened in some exorcism in history. Everything. Even the case of the demon going inside the priest."

Fortea "earned" his doctorate degree with a thesis on exorcism and demonic possession. How can a doctorate degree be awarded to someone who writes about fantasies... This assault on God-given reason reminds me of the quote from Thomas Paine's outstanding book, The Age of Reason: "The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; . . ."

By not asking the priests and clergy tough questions and not demanding evidence, the "journalists" are only helping to perpetuate ignorance. I've had people in discussions with me about God and religion tell me they believe in the Devil and that the movie The Exorcist is a movie based on the truth. Articles that fail to put these claims to the test of reason do a great disservice to society and to individuals who're trapped by the fear of the "revealed" religions. We need to DO all we can to fight the fear and superstitions and to free people from the nonsense of the "revealed" religions!

The number of Catholic exorcists in the US has grown over the last four years from only four to 70. This can only reinforce the fear inducing lies of the Catholic Church and the Bible. When people see the increase in exorcists they must assume it is due to an increase in the Devil's work. The Church loves this scam they play on the faithful! Fear is a great way to keep the pews and coffers full!

In the article the fantasy man, Fortea, seriously tells the reporter there are four signs to let you know someone is possessed. If the reporter was a real reporter he would of extensively questioned the "holy" man on each one. For example, the first sign is superhuman strength. The priest is quoted as saying, "Very often you need four, six or even more people to restrain a person." The reporter didn't even ask to see a video of such a case! He could have asked to go along with his camera crew and record one of these imaginary occurrences, but he didn't. This doesn't sound much like a real reporter to me.

We need to let people know the truth to this statement by Marie Curie: "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less."

From Bruno's Bulletin a Deist publication..

Superstition is what keeps the human race from moving forward....R

trainedobserver

11-13-2007, 08:43 PM

Driving my mother from a doctor's appointment today we were treated to yet another story about priests abusing children and the ensuing cover-up by church officials on the radio. Case after case after case after case. (sighs) When will Catholics have their fill of this? When will they drag these evil parasites out in the street and render some O.T. justice to them? Answer: Never. They never will. The amount of fear and control the church has instilled in the public over the centuries will prevent justice from ever being rendered to these manipulative sick human beings who have maneuvered themselves into positions of authority and trust. As a human being I mourn for the generations who have suffered and will yet suffer needlessly at the hands of these monsters.

End it. Put them out of a job. Pitch the whole lot of them out in the street. Stop supporting the Catholic Church ... an organization that does not support the needs and concerns of the lay-people but rather functions as a parasitic entity preying upon them. Were they on the up and up abusive priests would go to jail instead of another parish somewhere.

Only the fear produced by superstition keeps justice from being served in this regard.

As an atheist I firmly and resoundingly wish that there was a just and merciful god that would look down on us, take pity, and meter out justice to those who prey upon us in his/her/its name. Unfortunately, and hundreds of years of abusive church history bear this out, no one seems to be minding the store. What? No need to worry? God will 'get them' in the afterlife and hand out justice then? Oh ... that is just what they want you to think I'm sure. Meanwhile ... in Jimmy's nickers ...