Refusing Medical Attention

[saygoodnightgracie]

It has been reported on a Cult Awareness website that Word of Faith Ministers are teaching that adherents should refuse medical attention... this is a serious and egregious offense to the body of Christ.

If anyone has something they can post (a direct quote or direct me to a specific teaching tape) where a WOF minister taught that you should refuse medical treatment I would apprecaite seeing this.

Here are some prominent WOF ministers (these are considered "leaders" and can be seen or heard at the KCM Ministers Conference every January).... Ken Copeland, Charles Capps, Andrew Wommack, Keith Moore, Rick Renner, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, Mac Hammond, Ken Hagin Jr, Tony Cooke, Willie George, Robb Thompson, Markus Bishop, Bill Winston, Keith Butler and Billye Brim.

If ANY ONE of these ministers on this lengthy list taught that YOU/WE/US should refuse medical treatment, I will renounce that minister publicly.

If these, the leaders of this doctrinal movement, are teaching this - then the Christian world needs to know about it ASAP and intend to let them know!

[bluewater2]

It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to believe in faith healing if you can believe that someone raised from the dead, now would it? Why not?

[saygoodnightgracie]

There are people who insist that these ministers teach their adherents to refuse medical attention. I have never heard this but want to know if they do. Please any clips, articles, cassette/CD recordings would be greatly appreciated. The WOF minister who taught this will be roundly chastised here, I will rebuke them publicly and thoroughly!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Saygoodnightgracie:

Refusing medical treatment sounds like a doctrine of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Anyone?.. Anyone?.... Bueller?....

[saygoodnightgracie]

Wha?!!!!

NO examples of WOF ministers teaching people to refuse medical attention? You're kidding, right?

[bachman]

Never heard any of them tell people to refuse medical treatment, gracie.

In fact, I've heard them say something along the lines of "The important thing to remember is that God wants you well, so if you need to take medication to feel better, do it 'in the name of Jesus' believing for your healing as you take the meds. The doctor is the 'authority' you have submitted yourself to, so walk under that 'authority' as long as it does not contradict the Word of God."

To me, that makes perfect sense. Andrew Wommack says he has only taken aspirin for a toothache years ago and I believe what I just wrote -- I'm currently experiencing some lower back pain so I'm using common sense -- skipping the gym, stretching and yet I continue to believe for my healing.

Merry Christmas to everyone here on FactNet!

I was reading this morning in 1 Timothy in The Message translation and this passage spoke to me…and maybe it will speak to you, too! (Emphasis mine!)


1 Timothy 1:4-8 (The Message)

Self-Appointed Experts on Life
Stay right there on top of things so that the teaching stays on track. Apparently some people have been introducing fantasy stories and fanciful family trees that digress into silliness instead of pulling the people back into the center, deepening faith and obedience.

The whole point of what we're urging is simply LOVE-LOVE uncontaminated by self-interest and counterfeit faith, a life open to God. Those who fail to keep to this point soon wander off into cul-de-sacs of gossip. They set themselves up as experts on religious issues, but haven't the remotest idea of what they're holding forth with such imposing eloquence.

It's true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but THE WAY YOU SAY IT and to whom you say it are as important as what you say….


Hopefully, I’ll be careful to watch “the way” I post/say in addition to what I say!

Peace and hope to you all,
Bachman

[marta]

I don't think these teachers actually tell people to refuse medical attention but some of their misguided followers take the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion which is ...God has aleady provided the healing you need ... if you want the healing to manifest in your body, you have to believe that you are already healed .... and if you believe you are already healed, you don't need a doctor.

The Reality Of Faith
By Andrew Wommack
http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/reality_faith

"True faith doesn't deny physical truth; it just refuses to let physical truth dominate spiritual truth. True faith subdues physical truth to the reality of spiritual truth."

So if you have "true faith" you believe that you are already healed even if you have physical symptoms, and if you are already healed ... you don't need a doctor or medical attention.

[turtle]

YOu know you could of saved me alot of time if someone just said watchtower. lol. Figured it out last night.A baptist does not belong there that is for sure.

[marta]

"When you believe in something, you have to believe it all the way. If you only believe in it part way, it's not a true belief." Roger Winterbourne. Five of his children died of pneumonia between 1971 and 1980 without receiving medical attention.

Interesting link listing cases where children dies because parents refused medical attention due to religious beliefs ....

Cases of Childood Deaths - Due to Parental Religious Objections to Necessary Medical Care
http://www.masskids.org/jcl/jcl_6appendix.html

[bluewater2]

Well, I guess if you are going to believe something "all the way", these kids are now sitting at the right hand of Jesus, right? Very sad, indeed.

[turtle]

Only time I have said no doctors is because i could not afford to go. But reality I could not afford not to go if I wanted to live. I can not understand why some groups teach not to go to doctors. Even in the Bible Priest were medically inclined. Lack of knowledge by some groups.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. bachman


Quoting: "It's true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but THE WAY YOU SAY IT and to whom you say it are as important as what you say…."
End quote.

My mammy said it with a switch. Was she wrong? Should she have bowed down and licked my @@@ while buidling my self-esteem?

OOPS! I forgot to mention my school teachers, were they wrong also?

[marta]

Quoting: "Should she have bowed down and licked my @@@ while buidling my self-esteem?"

Obviously the switch didn't work .... or "mammy" never taught you how to conduct yourself in mixed company.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). marta:

She did an excellent job of keeping her youngins out of prison. Speaking of conducting ourselves in MIXED company, she always had a few spare Shaloms lying around.

[arron]

tatm// also tatm mammmy is a word that the black people used to call their mothers and you are makeing fun of blacks when you say that. and if she did tak e a switch to you she didnt hit the right spot or you would not be so hateful and you would not use the lanquage you use (even thought you put it in other little things on hers we all know what you mean that also shows you that you are not the only one with sense. we just have sense enough to believe what the word of GOD saya and not what we feel. and we are not afraid to tell what church we belong to nor who we were ordained by nor where we got our doctorate ( if any)

[marta]

and if she did tak e a switch to you she didnt hit the right spot or you would not be so hateful and you would not use the lanquage you use

My point exactly. Thank You!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

Mr. Arron & M(r)(s). Marta:

May I laugh at both of you? We know who mind is in the gutter. I wrote @@@. Had the board seen the word "<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>" it would look like this.

hehehehehhehehehehehe

[marta]

We know who mind is in the gutter.

Yes we do ... the one who had the thought, knew it was wrong but posted it anyway. If your thought was not offensive, why attempt to hide it?

How sad it is that there is so much sexual immorality, impurity, and greed in the church today. You should be ashamed, but instead you laugh. Shameful.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). Marta:

Yes siree bob! You made a complete fool of yourself. The first thing my mammy taught us, don't read between the lines.

[marta]

the_apostolic_truth_ministries,

I see from other threads that most people on FactNet just ignore your posts .... from now on I will do likewise.

[arron]

TATM/// a question .... are you a black person? if not why are you making fun of them? if you are i can understand why you say mammy. and it was YOU who brought up the words not i , nor marta. your mind is in , no no in i thnik it is smewhere under the gutter, the gulley, the trash pile , the trash can for it is on yur mind all the time

[easeltine]

Saygoodnightgracie,

Answer, they do not. One of Marta's links goes to a Christian Science example.
Kenneth Hagin Sr. didn't teach that either.

Can't anybody even produce a sentance out of context from Hanky Baby? No? Remarkable!

[easeltine]

Even people who like to routinely falsely accuse Pentecostals on FactNet hasn't produced a lie about it!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s) Marta:

Again you are making a fool of yourself. All of my post are responded to.

[marta]

Can't anybody even produce a sentance out of context from Hanky Baby? No?

Sounds like you are advocating dishonesty. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I wish I could help but it's difficult to provide quotes because most of these "ministers" charge for their books, and it's not worth my time or money to purchase their books and then read them so I can provide you with quotes. Too bad I tossed out all my wof books, tapes, etc. From what I can recall I don't believe any of these teachers ever told anyone to refuse medical attention, however if one takes the teaching to it's obvious conclusion it's not too hard to understand why some people do refuse medical attention.

Disclaimer: This is from a web site, not the actual publication ....

In the Name of Jesus by Kenneth Hagin, p.44

"I have so often said, I haven’t had a headache in so many years (45 to be exact) ... Just a few months ago, as I left the office building and started home, suddenly my head started hurting, someone might say, “well, you had a headache. No, I didn’t have one! I don’t have headaches. I haven’t had a headache since August 1934. 45 years have come and gone. And I haven’t had a headache…but if I had a headache, I wouldn’t tell anybody. And if somebody asked me how I was feeling, I would say, I’m fine, thank you."

What's the message here? Believe God or believe my symptoms? If I choose to ignore my symptoms, wouldn't I also refuse medical attention?

[easeltine]

No, dishonesty is the devil's specialty. I leave it to the heresy hunters to practice Satan's ways.

I took an asprin for my headache yesterday, so I must not be Word of Faith then? Actually, I complained to Kenneth Hagin 15 years ago about Kenneth Copeland's obvious abuse of prosperity teaching. Kenneth Hagin Ministries rewarded me by sending me a free magazine every month for the past 15 years.

I'm not with the Word of Faith movement. What I really dislike is the false accusations, such as the Cult Awareness website. They and all false accusers are part of the "Accuser of the Brethren" cult.

[easeltine]

Good reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

[arron]

tatm are you black ????

[pebbles]

Does the WOF teach people should refuse medical attention. What they DID was use lingo such as "by His stripes you WERE and they use that word "WERE" healed.

They gave people the impression, that if you are close enough in your relationship to Christ then you will not have illness and giving to their ministries surely showed your faith. If you did have problems in your life you probably had been walking outside the will of God and had brought this upon yourself. many at one time taught the power of the positive confession in otherwords DENY..saying things such as I am healed in the name of Jesus, I am not sick I will not accept this sickness! they really saw no need for doctors if you were walking accordingly to the word of God. And therefore going to a doctor gave off the impression you did not have the faith, you had not arrived!

Now I must add this was a fad with the WOF movement in general in the late 70's and 80's many books have been written by ministers that discuss healing and having the gift of healing.

(Message edited by pebbles on December 31, 2007)

[pebbles]

One such book is The Bible Healing Study Course by Kenneth Hagin. I encourage those who are interested in this subject to pick up some of the older material from Hagin, Copeland, Capps, Osteen, Freeman and others who practice under the Word of Faith Ministries movement.

As you read you will see where confusion may come in and how easily scripture can be used to market ideas such as faith healing. Of course no one will come right out and say i command you not to go to the physician(Freeman was known for this however) but when they preach that Jesus or God is the great physician and that He died on the cross not only for your sins but for your sickness too, we can see where confusion or an underlying message that medical intervention isn't necessary if your faith is there then you should surely be healed.

[arron]

as you all know i am pentecostal and as such i defend our faith. not all pentecostals belive nor do they teach such doctrines as no medicine. i take medicins and trust THE LORD ALSO TO HEAL me. i have never been told nor has nay one in our church ever been told not to take medicine and we have had some healings in our church. i have been healed many times my self so please dont judge us all because one is out of line with GODS WORD i do not listen to kenneth copeland, kenneth hagin i dont even know who capps is i do not listen to osteen , i dont know the freeman either. i take what GODS WORD TELLS ME and if GOD HIMSELF were to tell me not to take any med i would not. but not because man said my faith would heal or deliver me by what they said.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Hi Pebbles,
I consider myself to be WOF and so do most people who know me. I go to doctor's, I pray and believe God for healing - then if there is something that can be done in the natural realm to alleviate the symptoms, I go to the doctor. I have a (WOF) relative that has never gone to a doctor, but that's between him and God. That same relative's wife goes often I hear.

"by His stripes you WERE and they use that word "WERE" healed." I'm not sure this is "lingo" Pebbles, I think it's a scripture found in the Word of God (in three places, in fact). "1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed"
It was Peter who used the past tense "were" first, others just repeating what he said.
Off the top of my head, the other two references are Matt 8:17 and Is 53:4-5, I think.
Be blessed Pebbles!

[pebbles]

I think it is important to note , that we should remain poitive in our outlook in life and that going to see a physician is a normal part of healthy living, there really is no need for any minister to preach that being sick is a symptom of doubt or sin, it is a part of living on a planet where we get older and yes we do suffer in our health for many reasons.

I do not know how long you have been a born again christian but those who were raised under the teachings of many of the Word of Faith ministers would be lying if we said that a tremendous amount of spiritual growth was placed on the fact that we were able to stand on God's word for healing. Book after book, cassette after cassette has been preached on the faith healing, it was a large and still probably is a large part of this ministry. There were times when people were throwing off their glasses and stomping on them in church, a time when if you were sick you prayed for healing(before going to a doctor) in the name of Jesus for he alone was the great physician. Again it is rare that any minister in his right mind would say "I refuse as your shepherd to allow you to go to the doctor" but certainly the pressure of being right with God and walking as Christ did meant complete and total health.

happy new year

[saygoodnightgracie]

I was "raised under" the teachings of my parents, my cousins, my best friend, Bros. Copeland, Hagin, Wigglesworth, Mac Hammond, Keith Moore, Charles Capps mostly I guess.

I have never, ever heard of any of these ministers suggesting that you should throw off your glasses and stomp on them. I have never heard of any of these ministers suggest that you should not go to doctors.

I'm very sorry for you if you or a family member was subjected to this manner of spiritual abuse. However, these ministers I just mentioned would be considered to be "leaders" of the WOF movement, and they do not teach these things. I would suggest to you that perhaps the ministers who taught these things were not Word of Faith?

I am going to a minister's conference in a couple of weeks, where I will be ministered to by Ken Copeland, Billye Brim, Jerry Savelle, Mark Barclay, Creflo Dollar, Keith Moore, Bill Winston, Keith Butler, Happy Caldwell and Dennis Burke (typically)... I will listen carefully for the doctrines of stomping on your glasses or refusing medical attention.

If I hear these concepts being taught, I will report back here immediately Pebbles and publicly renounce that minister.

Who are some of the ministers that you heard teaching these things? This is WRONG, WRONG teaching and can seriously hurt people.

Thanks Pebbles, 2008 is going to be GREAT!

[saygoodnightgracie]

""by His stripes you WERE and they use that "1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" It was Peter who used the past tense "were" first, others just repeating what he said." Did you read this Pebbles?

PS I wear glasses, have for some time. About two years ago; my father, my daughter and I all prayed and began believing God for restored eyesight. We confess that we have 20/20 vision. The last time my father and I purchased glasses, our vision had improved and our prescriptions are not as severe... This occurred with two different doctors in two different states. Both doctors INDEPENDANTLY stated that this is extremely rare that someone's vision improves! Each of us were afforded an excellent opportunity to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ to eye doctors following the exam, by testifying of His goodness and desire to heal us!

[pebbles]

We would be in deniel if we didn't see how the faith healing movement is a dangerous one. When a person is told, "you can have the health Christ had, if you just have the faith of a mustard seed. We all know now how very tiny a mustard seed is, so even the smallest amount of faith should be sufficient enough to find a healing without any human intervention.

Many people of course go to the doctor to find out exactly what demonic forces they are up against so they can rebuke the diabetes, tumor or other illness in the name of Jesus. In these faith healing movements they are taught to stand on the word of God for healing and going to a doctor really shows a lack of faith and again one who may become ill or God forbid pass away was probably not tough enough on the devil or somewhere had an imperfection.

Many a million chapters have been written on faith healing it a real and alive teaching. Some going as far to say that perfect health is yours just with the right confession, believing that you can speak anything into existence it really huge part of these ministry mindsets, it is what sets them apart from other christians.

Always be aware and be knowledgeable. It is being a follower that gets people into trouble. Many things in our life can improve if we take care of our bodies, show forgiveness and gratitude.

[saygoodnightgracie]

What is your definition of "forgiveness"?

[pebbles]

Fred Price has been quoted as saying, he is strong enough not to need medicine. When people hear these kinds of things from ministers they admire and with whom they think they share similar views of faith, they copy and follow suit. It is this way with many trends in religion, it's why they are called spiritual leaders.

Watching CBN we also see many times Pat Robertson, his son and others sharing that God just laid it on their heart there was someone healed in the TV audience, immediately from a bad back or an ear infection. That is almost like reading your daily sign chart, it's a one size fits all kind of faith.

Here is a list of books for those concerned with the teachings they see in the Word of faith movement,i found at the wikipeda sight, i have read the book by Gordon Fee and it was a real mind opener and helped me to see follies of many of these teachers.

Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur
Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff
A Different Gospel by Dan R. McConnell
New Wine or Old Deception by Roger Oakland
Seduction of Christianity by Dave Hunt
Righteous Riches. The Word of Faith Movement in contemporary African American Religion by Milmon F. Harrison
The Word-Faith Controversy by Robert M. Bowman Jr.
The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels by Gordon Fee
Unfeigned Faith by Judson Cornwall
The Love of Power or the Power of Love by Tom Smail, Andrew Walker, and Nigel Wright.

(Message edited by pebbles on January 02, 2008)

[pebbles]

Forgiveness is letting go of the pain caused to you, but it isn't being stupid and trusting someone who only has their own agenda in mind. Forgiving can heal just as bitterness can cause ulcers and high blood pressure. It is so simple God gave us all we need to live by in order to be healthy, including loving others, eating right, exercise, getting proper rest yet even then we can become sick and that is why doctors are so helpful. It is not a lack of faith if you need to wear contacts, have radiation or wear a hearing aid.

We just sometimes want an easy road,name it and claim it.

(Message edited by pebbles on January 02, 2008)

[saygoodnightgracie]

"I'm not with the Word of Faith movement. What I really dislike is the false accusations, such as the Cult Awareness website. They and all false accusers are part of the "Accuser of the Brethren" cult."

Hi Easeltine, I didn't see this. I am against the unbiblical excesses in WOF movement as well. If any of these ministers have broken the law in regards to finances, they should GO TO JAIL.

My problem is when, as you say, people make false accusations and claim that the ministers (un-named ministers I might add) are teaching things that NO ONE has yet posted here as proof.

I am with you, I can't stand the misinformation. Give me the facts, give me proof; but vague generalities that damage people's reputations is reprehensible.

Now having said that, I have a friend (Factnet Friend, not a real friend) who says that her mother passed away because she was advised or she concluded from what she was being taught that she should refuse medical attention. First of all, only a retarded reprobate would lie about something that serious, so I have absolutely NO reason to think she is lying.

If this person's mother was told or taught these things, I think that's horribly abusive and as I mentioned earlier, should be punished in a court of law. I feel very badly for her and her family, what a horrible story. I pray for her often.

[easeltine]

Heresy Hunters to rob us of our faith.

I will add those to my list of books to avoid, especially the 1st two.

John MacArthur and Hank Hanegraff are two names best to be avoided by people that believe that the sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit, (such as Healing and Miracles), are still in operation today through the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have never departed from the Church of God, no matter what these heretics against the Gifts of the Holy Spirit say.

[pebbles]

I often have to wonder why people have such a hard time when it comes to growing old or getting sick or even the prosperity movement, where people want to accumulate more and more things, they can't take with them when they go.

That not listening to the advice of a doctor because your pastor with a degree from John Doe bible club told ya so. Is well beyond me. Of course we all have the power to chose, we all come to our religious beliefs by some form of following anothers lead. I can certainly respect an adults right to say they will chose to trust god rather then get an operation but I will never stop telling others what a stupid idea it is if the chance arises. We are humans, our bodies fail us and just as no one really wants to die, we have choices to prolong life and medicine can help.

When you really step back and look at a teaching like this it can just baffle your mind. Yes, words have power in many ways, we can hurt a person by saying nasty things, we can glorify others and help their self esteem. But we can not cause a healing to take place by speaking it into existence.

[pebbles]

SayGoodNightGracie,Ii am not sure where someone has written anywhere here on factnet that these ministers "refused to allow their followers to go to the doctor"? It is the faith healing that teaches others , if they have faith they can be healed and well many people have the faith and they aren't healed.

You can come up with all sorts of reasons, like, oh, they really didn't have the faith, oh one time on Tuesday they gave someone a dirty look and that blew it for them cuz they were walking in sin. People aren't perfect in body, mind or spirit, we aren't gods but humans who sometimes take the wrong advice from the pulpit.

[saygoodnightgracie]

John MacArthur and Hank Hanegraff are to be avoided at all costs...

[saygoodnightgracie]

"People aren't perfect in body, mind or spirit, we aren't gods but humans who sometimes take the wrong advice from the pulpit." Amen Pebbles... you, Bam-Bam and I are all in agreement.

My father NEVER goes to the doctor. He is WOF. So am I. I go to the doctor AFTER I pray and believe God for my healing. You don't do something JUST because someone else does.

[pebbles]

You know saygoodnightgracie, I remember as a child having problems with my eyes around the age of 12. I was straning in class to see the chalkboard and so we went to the eye doctor. He fitted me for glasses and said to my parents that my eyesight would through the years worsen. One of my parents popped up and said we aren't going to accept that..of course my eyes have gotten worse no matter the acceptance, that is life.

Now I had a family member who is not in any type of faith healing movement but recently was told at 40 his perscription had improved! No need for such strong glasses, I say coincidence and he likes carrots. Sometimes things improve it has nothing to do with faith healing.

I am not WOF but I also never go to doctor, I do see the dentist though. I have an obsession with having good teeth. All in all do what you want as a consenting adult but don't forsake the help a physician just because it worked for someone else or because someone whispers in your ear, writes books and makes thousands of dollars off of preaching a message that really very rarely works.

Be wise!

[saygoodnightgracie]

Works all the time for me Pebbles... but I appreciate your thoughts. And I respect your opinion. Cold night EVERYWHERE, stay warm and be blessed!

[saygoodnightgracie]

I would not suggest that parents do that to their children EVER and NEITHER WOULD ANY WOF MINISTER worth his salt. If your parents were being taught this, I would humbly suggest that they were not being taught the WOF OR that they were giving it their own twist.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Fred Price wrote a book in 1979 (I'm getting old!) called "Faith, Foolishness and Presumption"... he states:

"A lot of people put undue strain upon their wives and children concerning healing and not taking medication. People may have a sick baby, and they could get it a shot and help the child. And they just sit there and let that baby suffer all night long, burning up with a fever, and a the poor baby doesn't even know what is going on. What does that really prove? Does that prove that you have faith, because you let your baby burn up with a fever? Is that an automatic sign that you have faith?"

[saygoodnightgracie]

cont.
"Well, I believe in healing, but I also have enough sense to know that all divine healing is not instantly manifested. So - what about the symptoms in between the time you pray and believe God and until the physical manifestation comes?

You need to understand that all healing is not instantly manifested. I have seen people who were prayed for, and they thought that their act of faith was to throw away their glasses. They have thrown their eyeglasses away or jumped on them and broken them up, saying, "This is my act of faith, praise the Lord!" And they couldn't even see their hand in front of their face. Thy say, "Praise the Lord! I'm believing God for my healing. Oops! Excuse me, didn't see you there."

[saygoodnightgracie]

cont.
"I don't know why people get off in this. I HAVE NEVER TAUGHT IT. Anybody that has been under this ministry has never heard me tell anybody to throw away their glasses. People get that on their own.

A young lady came up to my wife and me one itme, almost whimpering, almost in tears. She hardly had any friends now. Nobody would ride with her in her car. We couldn't figure out what in the world could be wrong. Finally, she said, "I claimed my healing for my eyes, but I can't see my hand in front of my face. But I don't knw why nobody will ride with me in the car".

I do! I know! Poor thing. That isn't faith, it's foolishness."

[saygoodnightgracie]

cont.
"There was a celebrated case one time in the news. A boy died, and it set divine healing back in the minds of many people. An evangelist came to town and said, "You are healed in Jesus' name". It is said that the parents took the insulin away from the little boy, and he began to go into insulin shock.

The little boy said, "I need my medicine. I need my medicine. Give me my medicine:" and they wouldn't give it to him.

They didn't understand at all, and they thought that by taking away the medicine, healing would come.

That is not faith. That is presumption."

[saygoodnightgracie]

THAT is WORD OF FAITH "DOCTRINE". Clear and simple.

I would say, that based on what you just read that statements like "They gave people the impression, that if you are close enough in your relationship to Christ then you will not have illness and giving to their ministries surely showed your faith." and "Now I must add this was a fad with the WOF movement in general in the late 70's and 80's" and "however if one takes the teaching to it's obvious conclusion it's not too hard to understand why some people do refuse medical attention." are categorically faulty.

[saygoodnightgracie]

NO ONE who reads this book (and btw, this book is de rigueur at Rhema Bible Training Center - so it's 25,000 plus grads have all read and studied it), could EVER get the impression that someone is EVEN remotely suggesting to NOT go to doctors.

This book was written almost 30 YEARS AGO. It have been on my mother's nightstand for 25+ years, the writer is on TV EVERY Sunday morning in every major market in North America and you read what he WROTE and that he DOESN'T TEACH this.

I think this thread can be put to bed. Marta, Bach, Easeltine - although you are not Word of Faith, I appreciate your adherence to TRUTH.

Thank you.

[saygoodnightgracie]

One last exposure of negligent, factless, false comment...

"That not listening to the advice of a doctor because your pastor with a degree from John Doe bible club told ya so."

Based on what Fred Price wrote, people are NOT listening their pastors at all. They are coming to their own conclusions, that is sad and dangerous - many, many people have been hurt by NOT listening to WOF ministers like Fred Price when they have advised people SPECIFICALLY to take medicine AND believe God for healing.

So sad. So tremendously sad. Leaves people angry at God and lashing out at ministers who had nothing to do with it - rather they TAUGHT THE OPPOSITE of what the person did.

[pebbles]

I think most people would agree, there are reasons WOF ministers write books on healing. It is because they belive that by faith you will be healed no, ifs ands or buts. they don't title their books, "Faith by Medical Means". And it is normal for someone who follows the teachings of Copeland, Hagin, Price and the many other teachers in this ministry, to take what they say as God Word because they call themselves prophets and evangelists.

As Marta has stated, it is implied that doctors and medicine are not necessary for anyone who has faith,. You are sadly misled, if you do not see this and I am very sorry for that but the men you admire SGNG have taught dangerous ideas and filled peoples minds with the thoughts that they are Gods and can have everything God does health, wealth power and all, if they follow the principals taught, they stand on the word, they rebuke the devil and of course as we have heard examples of before, giving to the ministries will put you on your way to a better life.

In the case of my family member, this person was not looking for an instant healing. When the Doctor gave the prognosis and said, listen this tumor is soooooo small, lets go in cut it out and maybe you might need a little radiation, the reply from my mum was, I am a christian. I believe that God heals today, He is in control of this situation and I have faith that by His stripes I am healed. I am going to believe for healing, the Doctor was very kind and said, I must respect your religious views but please understand, this is serious, lets get this out of your body, you are young, healthy and we can take care of this. The reply was, thank you doctor but I am going to stand on faith and trust God to heal me, God said it, I believe it and that settles it for me.

I can still hear those words as clear as they were when I was 19 years old. I didn't disagree! HELL, I was brought up under the teachings of all these men, I knew no different. God healed and who was to question when someone who had been a christian for over 15 years, was grounded in the word, faithfully supported these ministries and her church and above all was a real ambassador for Christ said, I'm trusting God, sure it might not be quick, but it will happen, the battle belongs to the Lord, why wouldn't it, I have read every book on healing, I am filled with the holy spirit, I follow a healthy diet and lifestyle- the blood of Christ will heal me. The battle belongs to the Lord!


(Message edited by pebbles on January 04, 2008)

[pebbles]

Well folks, it took two years for this person to die, there were ups and downs as I know that having a positive attitude and outlook can keep people going that is scientifically proven. It was one evening I found my father crying in the laundry room and he said to me, your mothers breast is black and swollen and the other one is filling with lumps too. She continues to want to trust God for the healing, she listens to Christian tapes(again copeland, capps, osteen, price, hagin, shambock, freeman) she listen to her praise tapes and reads the Bible and books all day claiming a healing.

Soon bones started breaking, one day her leg broke while she was home alone she laid on the floor for hours unable to get to a phone, thank GOD my brother on fluke came to visit that day and was able to call 911.. Then Bells Palsy set in and her beautiful face was now paralyzed and finally tumors filled her whole body. people wpould come from the church and pray and sing and have devotionals and stand with her on faith..Until the day came when the only one with enough strength to seethis through was a 21 year girl who rubbed her mom's tumour filled back, helped her to the toliet and then watched her take her last breath in a blue chair in the living room. All do to some stupid teachings by some foolish men and women too, Marylin Hickey was also involved in this trend.


Please do not pity me, but know for sure!!!!!! She would of never have gotten the idea that she could be healed and forego the medical treatment necessary if these preachers would have not taught such things. If they would of shut up and knocked off writing the books and selling the tapes and ministering at seminars on FAITH HEALING, through the power of a positive confession..


I am encouraged as I see others come out with similar stories. People will hear my story if the opportunity arises for it is one I do not discuss unless provocked by certain types.

Forgive but don't forget the consequences and make sure others are warned!

(Message edited by pebbles on January 04, 2008)

[marta]

Thank you for your testimony pebbles. Sadly the teachings do contribute to people forsaking medical attention. Even sgng said "My father NEVER goes to the doctor. He is WOF." Isn't this what we are talking about? Taking the teaching to it's logical conclusion?

I believe there is a lot of confusion in the body of Christ because of certain teachers, like one you mention .... Marylin Hickey. In the past I have received letters from her ministry.

Her mailings usually imply that if you follow her instructions and sow a seed to her ministry you will receive whatever you need/want ... including healing. Isn't this just exploiting those who are struggling with serious problems for financial gain?

Benny Hinn is another person who implies that sowing a seed will activate your faith and allow you to receive from God.

“As you sow your seed, miracles will happen as you do it!” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

“The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow...God will spare you if you sow today.” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

So much confusion.

I want to make it clear that I do believe that God heals today. I don't agree with those who say that miracles have ceased.

But I also believe that there are ministers who go beyond what is taught in scripture. Scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more harshly by God. I'm not sure that most teachers today take this warning seriously.

[arron]

i beleive GOD HEALS today.there were several times my wife was healed of her sickness or somthign tha was wrong with her then she got diabeties and she had kidney fal=ilure and she passed away. but that doesnt mean tha GOD doesnt heal today for HE still does praise HIS NAME. may GOD bless you all

[SGNG]

Great post, Praise God for His faithfulness in healing your wife!

And you're right, I've lost a brother in a tragic accident and I've got two family members who are SEVERELY afflicted with Cerebral Palsy... this does NOT negate the fact that God wants you well.

Thank you for YOUR testimony Arron, God's Love never fails!...

[truth_child]

any "religion" that would tell me to forsake my children when they need medical help i would dump down the drain. i beleive that GOD still heals today but i also believe that HE heals through doctors and therough meds and through HIS OWN POWER so which ever way GOD chooses to heal me that is it but im not going to lay around waiting to die when there is medical help available

[truth_child]

yes GOD IS STILL THE HEALER sometimes we simply do not belive and sometimes w dont try to get to GOD and HE STILL REMAINS THE SAME HE DOESNT CHANGE just because we dont do or belive something

[truth_child]

hey turtle where are you. i am haveing to use a different name now ... this is arron when factnet went off the net to be fixed or whatever it was i did not know aht had happened nor where they were untill i was told and when i had to sign back in they told me i had to have a new name and THEY gave me the truth_child. which i think is good for i do try to speak the truth. miss you so much on here havent seen you around since it went off and came back on. i have been sick and in the hospital with a stroke but i fully recovered thank GOD. and feel better now than i ever have.

[SGNG]

This past weekend I spoke with a person who was refusing medical attention, and I had a heck of a time convincing her that it was okay to take medicine while believing for healing... I spent a lot of time working to convince her that there was nothing "wrong" or "sinful" in relieving pain WHILE believing God for restoration.

And in fairness, she listens exclusively to Word of Faith preachers, but admitted that they ad not taught her to NOT take medicine. I want to tell you that in regards to comments about taking a teaching to a "logical conclusion", I must disagree. But they do take certain teachings to "illogical conclusions" and that is a dangerous, dangerous thing to do.

In regards to my father, I was unclear... I simply meant that he hasn't been sick in a LONG time, hence does not use doctors. He is 77 years old, weighs 161 pounds, is relatively muscular for a little guy (5'8"), maintains a very healthy diet and is on a treadmill 4 or 5 times a week... this helps, I'm sure.

Thank you for your testimony pebbles. Sadly the teachings do contribute to people forsaking medical attention. Even sgng said "My father NEVER goes to the doctor. He is WOF." Isn't this what we are talking about? Taking the teaching to it's logical conclusion?

I believe there is a lot of confusion in the body of Christ because of certain teachers, like one you mention .... Marylin Hickey. In the past I have received letters from her ministry.

Her mailings usually imply that if you follow her instructions and sow a seed to her ministry you will receive whatever you need/want ... including healing. Isn't this just exploiting those who are struggling with serious problems for financial gain?

Benny Hinn is another person who implies that sowing a seed will activate your faith and allow you to receive from God.

“As you sow your seed, miracles will happen as you do it!” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

“The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow...God will spare you if you sow today.” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004)

So much confusion.

I want to make it clear that I do believe that God heals today. I don't agree with those who say that miracles have ceased.

But I also believe that there are ministers who go beyond what is taught in scripture. Scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more harshly by God. I'm not sure that most teachers today take this warning seriously.

[truth_child]

whne i ahd a heart attack it was sudden and if they had refused medical attention ( for i did not know anything ) if my family had refused me medical attnetion because of some non biblecal belief i would be dead i dont belive in refusing medical help thats what GOD gav doctors for

[rachellenglands]

I stated this before on the Hobart Freeman threads and will say it here as well-that any teaching that can be SO misunderstood and people can draw conclusions from it that lead them to the brink of death, is SO dangerous it is not even funny. We get upset with these same characters(Copeland, Dolar etc) who seem to also be the ones who are being investigated for money fraud?! There is just too much wrong here that if someone can not see it, I am very very unsure where their mental stability is-I am not trying to make fun of the people who invest their time and money into these ministries but it is just so wrong on many levels.

I just keep trying to figure out with all the warnings and the bad press and yes even the deaths, why people keep on following and defending when they KNOW those standing on faith and claiming healing and prosperity are doing exactly what these ministers are telling them to do-what in the world is so attractive here,it is beyond me and a terrible shame...R

[truth_child]

well because some just dont know the scriptures. they take what man says and not what GODS WORD THE BIBLE SAYS . i read where luke who was a physcian went around with paul i am sure when the apostles got beat for preaching that they had some medical help yes JESUS HEALS nd i thank HIM FOR THAT but we need to use common sense and not let some one die because we refuse medical help

[rachellenglands]

Arron, I understand that you are saying- people do not understand the scriptures BUT that really in all due respect isn't the issue. When we have someone coming to this board saying that's not what has been taught- that is not the truth..

To try to place the blame on the people who support and listen to these preachers is wrong-aying they misunderstood or followed man. These preachers use the Bible to defend what they preach and though very rarely do you here them say, "do not go to the doctor", they do encourage walking by faith, not by sight and that is telling you what??? It is saying Through faith alone you can be healed, if you have all your cards stacked up right, you are standing on the word, you are using the right words and you rebuking the devil etc etc you can be healed-it is promised to you. It is implied and YOU know this arron, YOU have also not been a fan of many of these preachers and unfortunately I have to tell you-what they preach, they take it from that same Bible you read!

If people want to believe it, they have a right BUT I am tired of the ones who come on here and say no one told them not to go to the doctor-YES, they did, they just used a different set of words.

[truth_child]

i have never really heard any preacher tell anyone not to go the doctor i thought the issue here was people telling people to refuse medical help and attetion such as do the jw who reuse bkood transfusins if i was dyig or my child or anyone that i was in chage of i would neve ever refus blood trans or any kind of medical help yes i know JESUS IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE HEALER , HE HAS HEAKED me many times . if one was to tell me not to go to as doctor i would tell them the were wrong andi would go on to the doctor.

[exhopper12712]

I have heard of the WOF religion mainly through a co-worker, and from what I heard, they imply that you will be healed and you don't need a doctor. However, faith should always be backed by works, for faith without works is dead. I have heard of doctors being wowed whenever cancer disappeared without a trace due to God's intervention. However, that doesn't keep my uncle out of the hospital with his cancer, though I have had many pray for him, and will start praying for him again.

Many of these WOF preachers will be judged by the laws of our land for the way they handled what was given them. I never have supported WOF or televangelists, and suspect I never will. IMO, supporting these groups should not be done unless you are truly benefited by it with more than positive thinking. Bye

[rachellenglands]

That was a great post and thank you. They IMPLY with their teachings that you do not need doctors, it is why they spend so much time talking about healing.:p

There are some religions where they do say don't go to the Doctor(like Christian Science practitioners) this WOF group is a little more careful however with how things are worded and those in the inner circle know that they can have healing with the power of the positive confession. Sure people get healed from cancer and other ills, I do not know why and I don't really think it has anything to do with God. Atheists get healed and they don't believe in God. That makes God sound very, very cruel when we say God heals some and not others. That makes no sense at all and God isn't cruel! Life deals you cards deal with it and don't give your time or your money to men and women who claim you can have healing by supporting their ministry either, they are fools and LIARS!!

This is a situation that is near and dear to my heart and i appreciate those who are understanding of this and I am also well aware more are against WOF then are for it! R

[exhopper12712]

I still believe God heals, though my understanding of how, when, and why, are not all that great. Overall line, if you are sick, get seen by a doctor. I have the utmost respect for the practice of medicine, and understand there are things I can't explain, won't explain, or won't try to explain. I believe that people are healed seemingly mysteriously at times, and won't attempt to attribute it to God, Devil, or doctors. I further understand that the human body, moreover, the human mind, has more power than people give it credit for, and sometimes, so called miracles are nothing more than a result of that. Whatever you believe, or profess not to believe, good night and the God I believe in bless you (atheists, whether you like it or not:p)

[rachellenglands]

We must use wisdom and logic. I know religion can at times be an emotional journey but keeping the emotions in check is what is important. i enjoy your posts! Enjoy your day, worship God in your own way!:)

[exhopper12712]

When I've decided what my own way is, I might just let you know. And than you might just like whatever I have decided. Of course, there is the necessity of making such a decision first. Night

[rachellenglands]

I enjoy learining about different beliefs exhopper. I often wonder why and how people get there. I am not a basher of anyone's beliefs unless it is causing great physical or mental harm such as some of these beliefs presented here.

[truth_child]

i believe that when an athesist calls ON THE LORD FOR HELP even if he just say GOD HELP ME i believe THAT THE LORD WILL DO IT sometimes just to show HIS MERCY TO THE one and sometimes just out OF HIS MERCY but it is always GOD WHO DOES IT no matter who it is

[rachellenglands]

Arron, people get healed without calling on God. It doesn't matter if you call or you do not call. What happens, happens.

In your case I have seen you arguing many times with others on the importance of good health-you say you can eat whatever you will..but you aren't sick because God doesn't want to heal you. Many times it is because you are not using your wisdom and the knowledge you have been given and you continue mistreating your body. fair is fair. We all die one way or another, not because God decides who gets healed but because we decide or time decides.

No matter what you believe I have always cared for you as friend but I have to speak the truth..R

[exhopper12712]

I enjoy learining about different beliefs exhopper. I often wonder why and how people get there. I am not a basher of anyone's beliefs unless it is causing great physical or mental harm such as some of these beliefs presented here.

Well, I can rule out the nurture theory of how people get to which religion they are at, since I was only mildly influenced by nurture, and that influence is mostly gone now, with maybe a seed or two left. I'd say nature has more to do with it, but than again, people can choose to respond completely different base on new knowledge, events, circumstances. I think I may have asked before, long ago, but seeing I can't remember anything, what do you believe.

[rachellenglands]

I am a Deist- grew up in a charismatic non-denominational home..Now I am no longer of a lover of organized or "revealed" religions. I can't always put a label on my faith but I believe in a God and one who gave us the wits to take care of ourselves and this world but somehow people have lost their way...

And you-did you grow up in a cult? Are you a Christian or you just don't really have any labels..

[exhopper12712]

At somewhere in my elementary years, I was exposed to the united methodist church, than, when I saw how cliquise they were, seperated from their at 18 to a baptist church, joined the military out of high school, and after having church abstinence through AIT, was invited out to this fundamentalist/holiness church called House of Prayer, where I stayed for three years, and after being fearful, coerced, manipulated, and gossiped about, I left, which has been very recent, just January. I had much bitterness and depression, and than I started posting on factnet again, after 1-2 years not posting. As of now, I told you how I have no church at present, I am as of now an extreme skeptic, fairly cynical, and jaded. I took from my time in HOP a lot of bible knowledge, with which I intend to sift everything I learned in HOP, and begin anew. What happened, might I ask, that turned you from organized religions? A bad cult experience maybe?? Or too many contradictions in organized religions???

[rachellenglands]

A little bit of both I suspect. My parents became Christians when I was a young girl and I "accepted" Christ as my saviour. Grew up in a Christian home and went to a private Christian school-I knew no other way of life.

My mother began from the GET GO (in the late seventies) to hang around a group of people who were heavy into teachers like; Copeland, Hagin , Price, Capps and many , many others. What they tell me now and I have learned from factnet are WOF ministers.

When I became a teenager "pastoralship" changed hands in the church and a preacher who received his "ordination" papers came out Christ for the nations in Dallas TX. They encouraged healing by faith, prosperity teachings, positive confession, laughing and dancing in the spirit they were the true believers and so forth. Well to make a long story short and my reason for ending up here-My mother decided to stand on faith for a healing instead of go through with cancer treatment. It was an unnecessary death exhopper and a sad time in my life as I being reared in that cultic culture where we lived by the words of the bible only-I didn't know how to save her but agreed that she would be healed. She died short of her 50th birthday-the whole thing was a mess.

Through much study myself and some really cool people and interaction with the Christian community here on factnet(not all are bad I have met some great Christians here) I realized what a mess the whole Christian culture was. I knew I believed in God but felt he was much more then a Bible story-people used to work for their own groups agenda and way beyond our comprehension. I am content with not having all the answers but I know as a human being I am expected to love others and care for this world...

So I guess I really can thank factnet for letting me tell my story and for helping me walk away from cultic mind control..



(that is the short version)

[exhopper12712]

I am sorry that you suffered so under the WOF teachings. I still believe that God is able to heal, but I want you to know, that though I believe that, if I feel like something is wrong with me, I go to the doctor if my mom (who is a nurse) can't give me advice that can help. I'm sorry your mom died that way rachel. I have an uncle who was in stage four of cancer, yet in October, received an email from his daughter telling me they had been able to stop the train and the tumor had shrunk. I haven't heard anything since, good or bad, so I'll assume its good. I won't discount the doctors efforts, yet I believe prayer may have had more to do with the sucess than simple treatment. Anyways, I can understand where you stand on your position as a Deist, I don't try to contend with people who have been through what you've been through, and done their homework as well. I have much homework left to do, and I will continue to post on this very informative, funny, vulgar, ridiculous factnet. Jason

[rachellenglands]

Me too..for awhile I thought I should leave here for good..but factnet is a fun ride and I have seen so many sides of religion..Take care and I hope you keep hearing positive news about your uncle..R

[exhopper12712]

One more question rachel, before i continue what i was doing. You say you're from the midwest, were at? I'm originally from Oklahoma.

[rachellenglands]

Michigan...I think of you Oakies as being from the West..

[Night_Light]

Many refuse medical attention because of messages such as these by the late F.F. Bosworth. A pioneer in faith healing who inspired people like Word of Faith preachers Kenneth Hagin and Oral Roberts. It is the ideas such as those presented below by one of his supporters that encourage people to go to these so called anointed ministers and fore go modern medicine. ideas such as these that have parents believing they need to only pray for their sick babies instead of taking them doctors or others who decide medicine isn't necessary if they listen to the anointed preachings of these Word of faith ministers. This is a very deceptive movement.


"F.F. Bosworth was a man of God who was full of the Spirit of God! He lived a life above reproach unto God, and always had a good report! He was so full of the Spirit of God that he lived his whole life above sickness and disease by his simple faith in the Word of God. His campaigns were filled with manifestations of miracles and healings, and many people being saved. Best of all, this was all accomplished by the simple teaching of God's Word! Bosworth seldom had to lay hands on the sick folk as the Word of God would heal people as they listened in their seats! People would be healed over the radio, and even in their seats in the meetings as they listened to the Truth of God's Word! Bosworth had the ability to inspire faith into the hearers by the simple teaching of God's Word alone! He was an advisor to many of the early healing revivalists such as William Branham, Oral Roberts, T.L. Osbourne, and many others. Kenneth Hagin constantly refers to his teachings, and many of the modern faith teachers draw from his outstanding teachings on Divine Healing today".


Reading passages like these gives a better understanding of why people are encouraged to forego the medicine and believe in a supernatural healing.

[Night_Light]

The dead never lie, they are the only ones that can't lie. But their lives tell stories and I will always tell the story about what the WOF cult did to my family for as long as I have a voice. Do you know what it is like to watch someone die and you know who did it and yet you can't do a damn thing about it? Because you are young and your world is spinning around you and you just can't grasp the whole concept. Then you grow up and you ponder, you study , you ask questions and you come to conclusions, you break the mind control with no ones help.

My mother died because of WOF-She deserved to live and be healthy just like Copeland, Capps and Hagin promised she could and why not her faith was as big as theirs- no need for anything else. Spit on those who say she lost her common sense, spit on those who try to blame those in cults instead of the idiots flying around in planes and driving limos because she and others supported them and their message and if you think I am bitter, that is okay too.

Do you know who they remind me of these WOF preachers.. I watched American gangster tonight and there is a part in the movie that shows Frank Lucas(Denzel) and his family enjoying a beautiful Xmas dinner while there are people on the streets shooting up the heroine that made him rich. My mind went back to all these preacher guys living the high life, sucked into materialism and for what, the cost of people's lives and they need to be exposed because I have had 15 Christmas's without my loved one and a daughter who never knew her incredible, compassionate grandmother. Many know people have died because of this message and ONE is TOO many in book.....

I will be a Night_Light, who no longer has to hide, thank you admin for all you have done for a woman who took a long road and finally found some solid ground.

[Night_Light]

Also another thing to be aware of is with these teachings is that some of these have taught, that it is up to you to receive you healing, it is more you than God. trying to live a life that perfectly in order to get a healing could drive someone in sane, better yet drive them to an early grave.

[Night_Light]

The tragic deaths of two young girls sparked controversy and lots of conversation in the last week.

In Wisconsin, an 11-year-old girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, which is treatable with proper medical care, after her parents chose prayer instead of antibiotics. And in Oregon, the parents of a 15-month-old now face manslaughter charges after their child died from untreated pneumonia.

[truth_child]

i have seen miraclepus healings in the past we couldnt go to the doctor every time we turned around as they do today we did not have the money or the means to go with i think that is why GOD healed so many then than HE does now we depend too much on medical help i do you do we all do

[Night_Light]

hmmmmm.. I do not really care for your response in this instance truth_child. I think more people just died in the days of old because they didn't have the technology we have now.

I think and I hope we can agree that was it NOT okay for these parents not to seek medical attention for these children, that was wrong. Even if one does not have insurance they know they can go to the ER and they will not denied, people do it everday.

In this case it was a bad choice and my bet on it is because of the lies they were being dealt by some type of minister. If a child is ill you take them doctor first, if the Doc says sorry no hope here, get on your knees and pray to whoever will listen. Forbidding medical care to a child that is simple and life saving should be unlawful.

[Alexis]

You Know Night-Light someone I really thought alot of recently died at WOFF. When I asked about it, I was told there was sin in their life. You either have sin in your life, you're out of the will of God , you're in rebellion or the judgement of God is on your life whenever you get sick or die but, when Jane gets sick I was told it's because she CARRIES everybody and there is sin in the camp.
I think the exodus from Wilmington to Spindale is already beginning. A couple that I had met just packed up and left leaving the landlord holding the bag. As he put it "I'll never deal with Christians again". What a reproach. They all need to be ashamed. I sometimes wonder if Jane Whaley really knows what is going on. I think not.

[Night_Light]

AH, that is a typical WOF teaching, she learned at Rhema, like I said they can try to distance themselves from her but some of that wierd theology WHALEY learned there. I can't believe when she gets sick, she says it is because she is carrying the weight on her shoulders-she thinks she is a God, better yet the voice of Jesus with the same powers as he had.{WHACKY}

Many WOF ministers say unbelief is sin and sin causes sickness, well many of their own wives have gotten sick, what does that say? It says they are hypocrites and they know what they preach isn't true, it is just lip service.

I say, sin-shmim, there are A LOT of sinners living a long, healthy life and many good folks are dying an early death. I grew up with the same ideas that if I did something bad, it would surely reap a bad reaction of some sort. If I had a bad thought, said a bad word-well surely I was doomed to deserve some type of mishap. If a mishap did happen I would reflect long and hard to figure out what I did to deserve that. I feel very, very sad for children who grow up in these environments. Even Copleand said he knew people who had cancer because they spoke out against WOF!

Here is a quote I got off a blog at Christian-net. regarding WOF.

"It's a self-help type gospel, pick and choose what you want, then demand it by quoting out of your notebook. Stand your ground and make demands on God. Not obedience, but obstinence".

[Night_Light]

I'll repost this for this Fred Price qoute for the record.

"Mr. Price also communicates one of the more sickening beliefs of the Word-Faith teachers which shocks even those with a mild amount of common sense. He says, "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right?....What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside of a body where He can't see out through the windows, and He can't hear out the ears?"(7) This insulting and insensitive comment regarding the handicapped and crippled among us stirs up anger in even the most hardened of consciences". Yet this statement by Mr. Price is followed by exuberant applause and approval from his congregation (I would like to hear Mr. Price say this to Joni Eareckson, or Tony Melendez)

[truth_child]

night light i pray you did not misinterpert my post 91 as meaning in didnt go to doctors because i didnt believe in them i didnt go because we did not have the money to ga and we depended more thne on JESUS than we do now. i cerianly tood my children to the doctors and still would if they need to go. i do not believe in refusing medical attention if it is needed and cerianly would never tell any one not to go. we do not teach that in our churches either. i know there are some who do and price is one of them and so is wof. but i go to the doctor if i have to please do not misunderstand my post.

[Night_Light]

You are cool with me TC.. You always have been.
I am just continuing to make people aware of these sinister/selfish teachers.

[Night_Light]

And of course some of these sinister, selfish teachers are stalkers. They get angry when anyone stands up to them. They also will get information on those whom they consider detractors. The information is not given freely and many times is falsified. They use the information to harass. This is going on in Christian circles and sometimes it seems less important because it is on the internet but that is not true.

A great example of a real winner is Randy Pausch. Someone who used all technology available to try and beat his pancreatic cancer and when all fails justs keeps living until there is no more breathe in him. Why do WOF preachers speak so much on death and sickness as being a result of sin in someones life? Is it because they maybe fear death, which seems strange since heaven is supposed to be such a glorious place. Why do they put so much stock in materialism? Seems totally opposite of the Bible's message. And they all appear as braggarts.

It is wonderful to be positive and to be one who encourages but it is another thing to teach people to live the best they can through your stories and experience NOT by promising them riches and health if they give to your ministry...

Just something to think about.

[truth_child]

yes when i first was in holiness there were some very fantical teahers there and some ( only a few ) were real fantical and did and said things they should not have. i know of one lady (now deceased ) who used to talk about people going to doctors but then i met her a gian many years later and she had been to doctors. one man of course he was goofy anyway he told me if you ever see me sick you will know i have sinned, i said ok. well i waited several years and we were at the hospital visting some one and i asked how he was and he said i am sick i have such a bad cold so i said oh what have you done for i know you have sinned because you told me if i ever saw you sick i would know you sinned. he never did say anything else to me about that again.

[truth_child]

but the pentecostal still stand for GOD AND HIS WAY praise GOD FOR THAT

[Night_Light]

Truth_Child, I am surprised to see you were banned here... I was wondering why-I am guessing as I have just done some previous searching of your posts -it is becasue you are here promoting your denomination or maybe it could be the language you used against Muslims on another thread??? That is my only guess.. Take care and thank you for helping me on these WOF and medical threads, it meant A LOT to me...

[Night_Light]

VERITAS
"Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise?"
By Craig Branch (http://www.arcapologetics.org/branch.htm)
Nov-Dec 2003 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but [wanting] to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
Our previous issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm) (“Wolves Among the Sheep”) was part one of a two part focus on a segment within the broad Christian community known under various names—the Word-Faith Movement (WOF), the Health & Wealth Gospel, Prosperity teaching, Name-it and Claim-it, and Positive Confession. This movement is led by a close-knit band of teachers who are growing in influence due especially to their frequent presence on Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), a network on the air throughout the U.S. and expanding rapidly abroad. For example, we have discovered a considerable influence had by them in Africa resulting in many African Christians coming to the U. S. already infected with WOF teaching.
This issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm) focuses on the faulty and sometimes tragic teaching of positive confession and the health and wealth dimensions of the WOF theology. Our prior journal exposed the historical evolution of the movement as well as their perverted and heretical views on the nature of God, Jesus, and redeemed humanity (biblical anthropology). Those doctrines are actually the most serious as they are heresies that can be eternally fatal. However, their emphasis on health and prosperity can be spiritually and physically damaging as well.
The Healing Heresy
An eight-year-old child with autism died during a healing service at Faith Temple in Milwaukee. The pastor, two church women, the boy’s mother and the pastor’s brother, laid hands on him and tried to cast out evil spirits from him. After all, doesn’t the Bible say this is the way to do it in Luke 4:40-41 (javascript:;)?1
Ten-year-old Jessica died in her home from cardio-respiratory failure due to inflammation in her lungs and a bacterial infection. Doctors could have saved her, but they were never consulted. Jessica’s parents are members of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn in Fresno California, a church that believes in faith healing, not doctors. Jessica is the third child of her family to die young of illnesses without medical treatment. Tyler, 11, died from chronic diabetes, flu, and dehydration. Bradley, 12, died of pneumonia. Another member of the church died several years ago, which led to felony child abuse charges against the parents. Felony charges have been filed against Jessica’s parents who, if convicted, could serve 2-6 years in prison.2
Such needless deaths occur frequently and are only the tip of the iceberg. It is not just Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christian Scientists who are needlessly dying because of false teaching on medical treatment. Besides children, many adults are led into the same fate or continue in untreated illnesses because they have bought into the false teachings of WOF movement. In fact, no one group endangers the health of more people than those Word-Faith teachers featured so prominently on Trinity Broadcasting Network. Moreover, many others have had their faith “shipwrecked” or have walked away from the Christian faith; either from too much guilt, or from believing that God doesn’t love them or care about them, or doesn’t even exist.
Research conducted by the Department of Pediatrics of the University of California that focused on the deaths of children due to religiously motivated neglect found that between 1975-1995 there were at least 172 children who died under exclusive “faith” healing. 140, or 81%, had a survival rate of 90% with proper medical care, and 18 more would have had a 50% survival rate.3
Religious exemption laws sometimes serve as a shield for those false teachers who abuse or lead adults to their deaths in this way. But it gets more complicated when it comes to the rights of children. The religious exemption laws that prohibit the states’ interference with peoples’ religious beliefs and practices, do not necessarily exempt parents from the responsibility of obtaining medical care if a child is seriously ill. The law can address and even prosecute those responsible for the abuse and harm of children who may not have a choice. But who is going to shine the light of truth on those heretical teachers who harmfully manipulate Scripture and people and dishonor Christ and His Church?
In this issue of Areopagus Journal (http://www.arcapologetics.org/areopagus.htm), I address the healing heresy in the article, “Are Christians Promised Perfect Health?” I explain the WOF doctrine of healing, demonstrating the heretical nature of it, and offer a biblical perspective on healing. I also attempt to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding the claim that there is healing in the atonement. To misunderstand this doctrine can have serious implications. Also, our colleague, pastor and apologist Keith Gibson (http://www.arcapologetics.org/gibson.htm), examines the claims of modern faith-healers with a special focus on one of the most popular, Benny Hinn, in his article, “Faith Healers or Fake Healers?”

[truth_child]

night i dont know why i was banned either they just siad i needed a rest. i think it was for what i said a bout one paticular group and it wasnt the muslims either . and one has openly talked about my religion and all i did was stand for it.

[Night_Light]

I understand-glad you are back and yes sometimes a rest is okay even if we didn't ask for it-it settles our soul...

Don't let other folks get you down or stir you up-you can't change very many minds around here..all we can do is write the truth as I have here about WOF!

[truth_child]

i asked the admin and he siad it was not what i said or did but that he thought i needed a rest from all the posting i had been doing so thats it

[truth_child]

i dont desire to chnage their minds for i know if they dont belive in something they are going to be hard to change but as long as they have trusted in JESUS AS SAVIOR AND ACCEPTED HIM AND A RE SAVED THAT IS WHAT COUNTS PRAISE THE LORD

[Night_Light]

Christian Science and WOF have both been big offenders in the catagory of healing. There have been many unnecessary deaths according to the last link I posted and it was a great vindication to see WOF being labled as a cult.

So we are in the perfect place here at factnet discussing the dangers of refusing or being encouraged to forego medicine because of slow brainwashing through continual use o related biblical verses on the topic. And by the impication that true faith will keep you healthy, wealthy and wise..

[truth_child]

night logh im so glad you are defending the faith as you are

[Night_Light]

Thank you, that means a lot to me. It has been a real breath of fresh air writing here and this topic is near to my heart.. God wants people to use wisdom..God wants people SET FREE from cults. I want people to see cult groups exposed for what they are!

Have a great weekend. \I will be back next week with more discoveries..



Stay healthy:)

[Night_Light]

To add to what I said...

Truth Child said..."Night Light, I am glad you are defending the faith as you are"


I say-Thank you. Through my reading I have come to discover that Word-Faith is not Christianity but a cult. Groups like this have sabotoged the true christian faith and are in part responsible for the breakdown of the christian religion. WOF also have been a very BIG embarassment to Christianity.

Doesn't matter how good one tries to be, giving to the poor, helping in the community etc.... people in the mafia or other questionable organizations all do good things and many seem very "religious", it is a nice way of fitting in but it is deceiptful to the core!

[truth_child]

hello there night light glad you are back on line i enjoy talking with you. it is refreshing to talk with out argueing i have looked around here where i live and i dont find any of janes churhces here though there may be and probally are some who teach such doctrines. there is one man here on tv that i wonder about his doctrines (they have nothing to do with janes ) but that is all well may GOD bless you

[Night_Light]

Yes TC, Jane is a big problem. I believe her parishoners have to have permission to seek medical attention as do many other similar cults. Look at the fundamentalist mormons whom we are seeing so much of in the news today-no vaccinations for the children and no medical records whatsoever:confused:. Christisn science Science speaks out against medical intervention of any kind and WOF (whose teachers include Copeland and Price) discourage doctors and encourage a positive confession and faith heaing, doctors are for those who don't have the faith.

These are dangerous cultic teachings...You will know a dangerous cult by the ideas they have on medicine-if they offer alternative methods(faith healing/sickness is sin) or no methods you can pretty much count on them as being a cult.

STAY CLEAR!

[truth_child]

there are a few churches who began to preach that you had to have the pastors permission or the boards permission to do or say anything in the church this is a controling thing and is a cultic practice for it brings fear to people and fear is the enemy of faith

[Night_Light]

We have to be very very careful with allowing another to control and dictate to us what we can and can not do...especially when health, marriage, rearing children and finance are concerned..

[Night_Light]

http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=681

[truth_child]

thanks for the site i will read it

[Alexis]

Night-Light,
Do you have any new information on WOFF you could share with me? I am working through my situtation with much prayer with my Pastor who is a wonderful loving shepherd. I have finally come to the realization that in order for God to work on my behalf, I have to forgive them and let them go. Not an easy thing to do.

[Night_Light]

No I don't have any "new" news about WOFF..as far as you saying forgive them and let them go..let me ponder that for a second...

Okay second is up! forgiveness is fine if it suits you and makes you feel better but forgetting and letting go-not a good idea! If we all just let things go then the losers like Jane Whaley, Hobart Freeman and the other WOF clowns will continue to get away with murder..

Good luck to you with all that, I know WOFF is a very harmful cult and hopefully with what has happened in Texas with the mormons will shed light on some of these other cults that hide behind gates...

[truth_child]

night light how are you ? i enjoy your posts so much. when one refuses medical attention if they are grown and do it because they just want to go on then i guess we have to let it be but when it is a chld or if the person is out of it for some reason then doctors should go ahead and do what they have to do. i for one want all the medical attention i can get. blood transfusions any thing that would help me yes give it. i mean all my children and my self we do this and i would never ever refus to let them do something that would save the life of one of my children or of my self regadless of what man might say ( or woman) there were many in the holiness church of which i am a member that would tell you dont take medicines although that was never a doctrine of the holiness church but you get a few fanatics in everything you do. but thank GOD none of our church believes that

[Night_Light]

I enjoy your posting here as well Truth Child. Thank you for all your good insight and urging others to seek medical help and that it is not unbelief or sin but wisdom to do so.




I enjoy your posts too... You are very correct about adults-we must respect their decisions BUT we must also seek out and how and where their decisions originated-was it through false teaching as is the case with many who are deceived by men and women they trust as "shepherds".

As with children you are correct again-it is child abuse to pray and not seek any medical advice at ALL whe you KNOW something is wrong with a child, as is has happened just recently with a young girl who had diabeties. She was 11 years old and her parents would not go to the doctor or medicate her-they chose prayer and said they would do it again if they had the chance but now that precious girl will never be used for great things here on Earth because of the prideful and very unwise decision her parents made for her. From what I understand-they are in very serious trouble with the law as they should be....

[truth_child]

and the parents should be arrested for murder for any one to let a child die when it could be helped by medical attention. my my, if my church did that i would change churches

[Night_Light]

Well they aren't changing churches nor do they have any remorse and I bet there are even leaders and church members of theirs who will support this-it is a very sick cycle..sad indeed but when you read material from WOF and Christian Science and any of those who believe in the power of a positive confession and standing on the word in prayer only-you can see where these ideas come from. The same thing happened to my mother..it slowly infiltrates their thinking.....otherwise known as cultic brainwashing....

[Night_Light]

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/03/28/news/doc47ebf5e4770bb721172675.tx

[truth_child]

i read it and it is so sad.

[Night_Light]

Yes terribly sad..so you see people are encouraged through some means to refuse medical intervention (she hadn't been to the doctor since she was 3 and why was that because she seemed healthy but checkups and regular visits to a physician are crucial and wise) It is not some made up story in my head but circumstances that have happened around the country...news like this opens up the conversation,as this is being talked about on the news programs daily. What these parents did was wrong and that young ladies death as you know diabetes was slow and painful as your stomach hurts, you dehydrate and your organs begin to shut down.

I wonder what some in the non-denominational(unorganized) religion feel about this-I bet many would say.....the parents were "right" and that they have "rights" to believe as they wish.

[truth_child]

probally but when one goes against common sense well that is a different story.
if i were not supposed to eat say pork for example and i was where there were absolutly no thing wlse to eat and i was staring i would eat a pig if it was availble as soon as i would a "tater" haha
they people who let their children die i cant understand that i love my children too much to let that happen

[Night_Light]

I can not understand it either TC but we are not brainwashed...I was once brainwashed with this type of teaching, as it was ingrained in me from the time I was a small child. I am thankful each day that I have been delivered(if I may use that word in a non religious sense) from the faith healing/positive confession name it and claim and that going to a doctor is a lack of faith teaching!

[truth_child]

praise THE LORD

[Night_Light]

Yes, people can get out of systems that brainwash them, it really takes others who care enough to consistently say "that is not normal". I think we all know however, that these parents of the young girl did not come up with the idea of choosing prayer only-all by themselves, someone taught them that heresy, someone took them under their wing(pastor, fellowship group, etc) and ingrained these concepts slowly into their thoughts-it often sounds so good and wonderful but it is a false sense of hope and a false non-Christian teaching

Have a wonderful weekend, it is Mother's Day Sunday and if it was not for the WOF teaching on faith healing she would be enjoying that day with her loved ones.
Bye for now....

[truth_child]

thanks have a good one your self i will be in church with my two daughters my son live in another state so i want see him we will have something honoring the mothers at out church. i am looking forward to it
well yes they do have the wrong teaching but if any one follows the bible looks like they could see when they are wrong or being taught the wrong doctrine

[Night_Light]

hmm..not when every individual interprets the Bible to fit their own personal preferences. We see that all over this board. Many pastors, many ideas on this verse and that verse. The best thing to do is follow along safely and believe in things that bring peace-not misunderstanding that can lead to death such as faith healing or prayer only...

[truth_child]

i agree i do not beleive in "faith healing only " we must ake GODS WORD sure but we also must be sure it is GODS WORd and not a "figment of our imaganation" if i may say it that way. we who are saved should know better than to take jsut a " word" we hear for there are many words going out today adn sadly most are not OF GOD we need to always be sure it is OF GOD

[Night_Light]

Some people just like to expand and make up there own truth. Many times because it sounds new and exciting and for the minister means more followers and more money. Kind of like the guy who says the world is going to end in 2015-you see making statements like that is dangerous, it causes all types of hysteria, just like telling people speaking things into existence as if they are little gods(like Copeland claims) is also a dangerous view..

[truth_child]

i learrned a long time ago not to listen to any one who says that the world is going to end on a certain day or month or year. JESUS sadi in HIS WORD that no man knows the day nor the hour when THE SON OF MAN COMETH. now if they say HE may come during this time for all the sign are here yeah then i listen but not when they say HE WILL be here on a ceritan time
sadly many have done this and have been made a fool of. see how some even tell it will happen many years from now, perhaps they think people may forget it by then
a lady i know was at a church service and the preacher told her she was going to die before the next year and she told him and said well when you come back next year and im not dead im going to tell you what you are for you are false

[Night_Light]

What a terrible thing for him to say to that lady! Telling people when they are going to die, if they are going to be healed and when the world will end-sounds like a bunch of fortune telling witchcraft. Makes them look all the more like fools and really that is a benefit to those of us who already KNOW they are fools, just gives us more evidence.

BTW, I have been meaning to ask, are you a minister?

[truth_child]

well the woman lived till the next year and for many after that but the preacher that said that never came back again to get told

[Night_Light]

I believe it, there are many who do such things, they are fakes and frauds walking around the churches pointing at people in the congregation with a "Word from the Lord" words that ruin lives, destroy marriages and cause paranoia. It is a strange phenomenon but many are desperate for some type of spiritual awaking and in that desperation is vulnerabilty...Here is a link I posted on another thread that deals with some of these beliefs..


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf

[truth_child]

you know i have always said if you use common sense it will help you avid things of that nature. the bible say that GOD GIVES us widom and if we use what GOD has given us and trust HIS word it will take care of us. if someone give me a word andit doesnt connect in my soul as being fromGOD i just ignore it and go on.

[Night_Light]

I agree whole heartedly- Common sense....taking time to really think things out for yourself.

We all come to an age when we must be accountable and wise enough to make the right choices when it comes to our health, both mentally and physically and we also have an obligation to watch out for those we see trapped in the guiles of falsified teachings. Of course we have to do this with sensitivity especially when they are, our loved ones-change does not happen over night. And we must be very outspoken about those who are taking advantage of the vulnerable and innocent..

[truth_child]

NIGHT LIGHT YOU KNOW THERE COMES A TIME IN PEOPLESS LIFE WHEN THEY MAY COME TO A POINT THAT THEY CAN NO LONGER THINK FOR them selves but have to have someone do the things for them when i had my heart attack (five by passes ) they had to do emergency surguery my daughters who were there had to take care of me and make discession for me wheni had a stroke to the brain stem and could not think or walk or any thing they ahd to make discissons for me thank GOD they had been taught the right way and made the right ones if they had belived in no doctors i would be dead thak GOD they knew to use a doctor when one had to iv etaken blood trans too so im not afraid of that either

[Night_Light]

I agree-we much watch out for each other and let our family members know are plan of action..if someone said to me-"if I get sick, I do not want doctors intervention". I would have to question that statement and get a good solid understanding as to why and where their idea came from. Was it because a preacher has said "send me your money and bless my ministry and you too will be blessed and healed" or did it come from a minister who said, "I will you send you the anoited cloth that I have touched and you have no need for doctors. because I am standing in place of God himself(yes this does happen-there are nuts out there who preach this stuff)

I understand where you are coming from and I see you do all you can to be here for your family and that you do not listen to the lies of many of these WOF preachers/motivational speakers...

[Night_Light]

ATONEMENT ATROCITIES
Another aspect of WOF doctrine is the concept of guaranteed health. Within the confines of faith teaching, we must let its leaders speak for themselves, we at BARC can't believe what they say:
"We don't allow sickness in our home"
"I have not had a headache, the flu, or even a sick day in 60 years, I confess my healings, and get results in seconds.'
"You have a covenant with Almighty God, and one of your covenant rights is the right to a healthy body "
"He healed you 2,000 years ago, all you have to do is receive your healing by faith."
"Sickness does not belong to you, it has no place in the body."
Although a prominent WOF leader claims he does not allow sickness in his home, we at BARC are sad to report that his dear wife was stricken with cancer, and has profusely thanked her doctors for the careful treatments of radiation and chemotherapy she received. The other may claim that he has never been sick, or had a sick day. But the facts show he has suffered at least four cardiovascular crises, some lasting six weeks, including a full scale heart stoppage. And just as atheist, Muslims, witches and warlocks, he kept his appointment with death. Faith healer Oral Roberts suffered a heart attack hours after he was supposedly healed of chest pains by TBN president Paul Crouch.
From the onset, It is apparent, what faith teachers teach, doesn't work in their own lives.
The WOF myth is that when Adam sinned, he got God thrown off the planet and Adam received the satanic nature. Since that time man has been plagued with sin, sickness, suffering and death. God got Abraham to strike a deal, part of the deal was that Abraham and his seed were promised tremendous wealth and total health. WOF teaches that "The basic principle of the Christian faith is to know that God put our sins, sickness, disease, sorrow, grief, and poverty on Jesus at Calvary." The WOF teaches that health is something we already possess. When symptoms of sickness arise it is just the devil trying to steal the health that is already yours. This is why faith teachers teach that all you have to do is just 'confess' what the word says; 'by His stripes we are healed'.
Now we can see the components of WOF error, a flawed concept of confession, a flawed concept of Christ atonement, leads to a flawed concept of healing.
We will look at the biblical teaching on healing, and explore the definitive distortions of WOF teachings.
WOF leaders are biblical neophytes, they appear to be so learned and anointed, but nothing could be further from the truth. There are no scholars within the WOF movement. It's like having no certified doctors in a hospital. They have Bible colleges, but the staff of these institutions are from biased backgrounds. The staff of Brigham Young University has a biased persuasion towards Mormonism. The Bethel Bible College of Jehovah's Witnesses leans completely towards the Watch Tower theology. The staff at World Harvest Bible College, are WOF trained and credentialed. There are Jewish Universities that teach the scriptures, however, they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. For the most part WOF leaders only have enough Bible knowledge to be dangerous.
A WOF leader demonstrates this when he quotes (Ephesians 5:23) to mean that Jesus is the Savior of 'the body'. He interprets this verse to mean that health is guaranteed because Jesus is the Savior of the physical body. When you read the passage, it is unmistakable that Jesus was not talking about the physical body. Jesus called the 'Church' His body. This is the danger of following WOF leaders, they are so lacking in biblical acumen, they will hurt trusting people who believe their interpretations.
I can personally site an incident when I was in management within a Fortune 500 company. I was interviewing a young lady in Atlanta for a position in our office. She was incoherent, listless and inattentive. I asked her if she was alright? She explained, she had attended the ICM conference held at 'World Changers' in Atlanta. She explained that the speaker proclaimed that 'all were healed by Jesus stripes', so she would not take her medication any longer. Unfortunately she has Lupus, and had to get her mother to dress her to come to the interview. I told her of the danger of WOF, advised her to go home and take her medication, and I would interview her later. What if I echoed WOF teachings? What if I'd said "those symptoms are just the devil stealing your healing?"
Another grim incident occurred when a family believed the false teachings of WOF leaders. In his book, 'We let our son die' Lucky Parker writes, how he denied his son insulin because he was taught by WOF leaders that confessing healing would bring manifested healing to his son. His son went into a diabetic coma and died. The family was arrested and charged with neglect, and second degree murder. They were sentenced, and served time in prison. But worse than all, they lost their son. These incidents occur too often in WOF circles.
One of the text that WOF mistranslates is (Isaiah 53:5), The prophecy says, that Jesus would be wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, and by His stripes we are healed. Contrary to Faith teachings, the Hebrew word rapah often refers to spiritual rather than physical healing. For example Jeremiah 3:22 says; Return O faithless sons; I will heal (rapah) your faith. He is not speaking of physical healing. God makes it clear as crystal, that in (Isaiah 53:5) He was talking about spiritual healing by saying transgressions and iniquities would be healed.
When looking at the New Testament reference of this prophecy, (1 Peter 2:24) , Peter enlarges on the proper understanding of it. It says; "He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his stripes you have been healed. Peter being inspired by the Holy Spirit speaks with poignant clarity; Jesus death on the cross guaranteed one thing, the forgiveness of sins! Hank Hanegraaff states: "One of the corollaries that must be induced if you teach that healing was guaranteed in the atonement is salvation and healing must be accessed in the same manner. If one does not have enough faith to make ones self well then he does not have enough faith to be saved."
Divine healing is a benefit of our redemption, but not a guarantee. God heals every day, but some are not healed. WOF will suggest that lack of faith by the Christian is why sickness persist. (Isaiah 55:4) does speak of Christ providing healing for the body, but it was fulfilled in Christ earthly ministry, not on the cross!!!! Read (Matthew 8:16-17), this confirms that since it occurred before the cross our healing is not guaranteed today. Dr. Vincent, Dean of Word Studies, when writing about the word 'bare' (abatazare) in (Matthew 8:17). He writes "this translation is correct. The word does not mean, "He took away" but He bore as a burden laid upon him. This passage is the cornerstone of the faith cure theory, that claims that the atonement of Christ included bodily healing. They insist on translating it 'took away."
Dr. Walter Martin with five doctorates in theology says; "The whole range of biblical scholarship insist that the faith cure theory will not stand up in the Greek text, and has no basis to be taught." There are two Greek words that must be considered, the first is anaphero; to carry a burden, as a cross, suffer on the behalf of others. The other word is bastazo; which means to have empathy with, identify with them in their plight; to care greatly for. Hebrews says; We have a High Priest that is touched with the feeling of our infirmities (Hebrews 4:15) Both Greek words are translated bore, or bare. In (Matthew 8:16-17), the word bare, is not anaphero, but bastazo, it does not mean he carried, or bore our sickness on the cross, but he had empathy for them. To understand what the Old Testament meant, you have to see it in the light of the New Testament. Matthew was inspired to give us the true interpretation of (Isaiah 53). Dr. Vincent says: "Matthew could have chosen no other word more inappropriate than bastazo, if he meant to teach that our sicknesses were a part of the atonement at Calvary."
What does it all mean? Should Christians expect to see their diseases healed? Yes, we should pray for healing, but more than that, we should desire to see the 'will of God' done. Although WOF leaders defame Job, God provided us with an entire book, 'The Book of Job', that outlines the critical aspects of His will, Satan's desires and constraints, the nuances of evil and human suffering. These are core components in discerning the events of our lives. Within this book we see that sickness, calamity, disasters, are all within the sovereignty of a loving just God. The Bible records three periods of prolific miracles. WOF leaders don't know this. The first period was the period of Moses, the second was the period of the prophets, Elijah and Elisha, the last was the period of Christ and the apostles. God had specific purposes for miracles. They asked Jesus to perform a miracle during His trials and crucifixion, but He did not. Why? He raised Lazarus for a specific reason, that men will believe. Jesus performed miracles to confirm that He was God in human form. The apostles performed prolific miracles to confirm they were truly the servants of God tasked with establishing His church and inspired to write the New Testament.
The Bible is replete with many examples of great men of God being sick. Job was affirmed as a great man of faith, but was covered from head to foot with boils. Paul confessed to the Galatians that because of 'bodily illness' was preaching to them for the first time. (Galatians 4:13). Paul told Timothy to take no water, but a little wine for his stomach (1 Timothy 5:23). Paul left Trophimus sick in Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20). Epaphroditus fell ill and nearly died, (Philippians 2:25-30).
Paul, who was the inspired writer of most of the New Testament, was plagued with a thorn in the flesh. Paul asked God to heal him three times. God said "My grace is sufficient for you, my strength is made perfect in weakness" ( 2 Corinthians 12:7-10). What did Jesus say to Paul? NO, I'm not going to heal you! Did Paul have lack of faith? No! If the apostles understood faith, and were inspired by God to write the scriptures, and they were plagued with sickness, then certainly modern Faith teachers are incorrect. The WOF look down on prayer request for the 'sick and shut-in', for anyone on that list, is lacking faith, and are not in the will of God. The truth is, even Faith teachers get sick, and die, just like all other men.
One final verse must be clarified, ((James 5:14-15), It says; "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the Elders of the church. And let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. To understand this verse, you have to see the specific historical setting of the text. In this instance, a certain man committed a sin that resulted in sickness. God is chastening him, in order to bring him back into fellowship. This promise, is to the person who has sickness that is a direct result of sin. If he repents, confesses it before the elders, God will heal. This verse does not guarantee healing to all Christians for every sickness. To take the passage literally would mean that healing can only occur with the use of oil, or only if an elder prays. If this was the only verse in scripture concerning faith or healing, then we would concur that this is the methodology prescribed to the Church. There are approximately 31,173 verses in the Bible, to understand what one is saying, we must enlist and learn from the testimony of the other 31,172.
(1 John 5:14) says; "This is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He listens and hears us." All faith is controlled and governed by this verse. Anointing with oil, or calling on the name of the Lord, will not bring healingunless

[truth_child]

i have heard people say the same things but at a later date when they got sick they changed their mind and went to a doctor. i dont care wat belive say if i get sick im going to adoctor

[Alexis]

Night Light,
Thank you so much for sharing that link to BARC Research. I found it to be very interesting. I am not sure that I agree with all of it but, it has certainly given me food for thought. I am especially interested in the SIS category since I have experienced that manifestation many times. I want to know the truth. Are you familiar with the song He's Alive & Risen From the Dead? Thanks again for all your good info.

[Night_Light]

There are many groups who refuse medical attention for themselves and their children-Jehovah's Witness believe having a blood transfusion will result in the loss of their salvation(let me just laugh at that a minute hahahahaha) The FLDS think the outside world is awful and evil and usually treat any illness and even birthing in house. Christian Science- forget it, as they do not allow medical intervention of any kind and the Scientolgists believe in mind over matter..

As far as WOF goes-it isn't they refuse-they just like to instill in their followers that going to a doctor isn't necessary-and a lack of faith which is a result of sin..just a different sin on an age, old barbaric doctrine...

I find it is interesting, how medicine and science often scare the religious community. It is a cycle that reoccurs through history...

[Night_Light]

There are many groups who refuse medical attention for themselves and their children-Jehovah's Witness believe having a blood transfusion will result in the loss of their salvation(let me just laugh at that a minute hahahahaha) The FLDS think the outside world is awful and evil and usually treat any illness and even birthing in house. Christian Science- forget it, as they do not allow medical intervention of any kind and the Scientolgists believe in mind over matter..

As far as WOF goes, it isn't they refuse-they just like to instill in their followers that going to a doctor isn't necessary-and that it is a lack of faith which is a result of sin..just a different SPIN on an age, old barbaric doctrine...

I find it is interesting, how medicine and science often scare the religious community. It is a cycle that reoccurs through history...

[truth_child]

night light as i said before just use some common sense along with the bible.

[Night_Light]

True that is TC..by the way is that you on the new cultbusters forum posting as Bold22?

[truth_child]

yes that is me i changed my name for i idnt know how to get on there but apprently i was just doing it wrong and dindt have to change my name after all

[Night_Light]

OK just checking-take care!

[turtle]

nightlight, thumbs up on something. I knew a man once that was accused of not wanting a family member to get treatment, that was not the case. Finances were the problem and then he was fearful for his family member to have a transfusion and wanted to wait until they could see if family had a match. Family protection is what it is called, but city folks would not understand.

[truth_child]

what i am concerned about is that the blood might be poluted with somthing it is not a religious matter. for i have had to take blood for i was bleeding to death. i had to take 6 pints of plasma or what ever they called it and two of whole blood. thank GOD i was all right. yes a lot ysed to refuse med treament because they didnt have the money but now aday they have the diffferent agences thay most ly can go through and get help

[turtle]

what i am concerned about is that the blood might be poluted with somthing it is not a religious matter. for i have had to take blood for i was bleeding to death. i had to take 6 pints of plasma or what ever they called it and two of whole blood. thank GOD i was all right. yes a lot ysed to refuse med treament because they didnt have the money but now aday they have the diffferent agences thay most ly can go through and get help

I think I received a total of six to eight pints, which is a no no for a jehovah witness, so I guess I do not qualify as one of them either. lol. But as far as agency go to help those with insurance that is a joke in a half. Do you know the red tape one must go through and with one being ill it is a pain. Plus I still had to pay doctor bills out of my pocket. I never seen so many test in my life when I was ill. See this is a problem, but socialize medicine has it hang ups as well. So what is the best solution. I do not have a clue on this one. I do not think health care is an easy solve problem looking from whoever end.

[truth_child]

well i had eaten some nust and some strawberries and i began to bleed real bad and almost bled to death it was an emergency thing but im still not jw

[turtle]

well i had eaten some nust and some strawberries and i began to bleed real bad and almost bled to death it was an emergency thing but im still not jw

Even with health care laws as they are to protect those seriously ill, one reason people do not go to the doctor is the cost and expense of it. Sometimes it cause people to wait to long before seeing a doctor, causing even more medical problems. Yet there are some very good doctors out there that put patience first just like the hyprocatic oath says. Some will they define there practice by the dollar bill. I have been fortunate with doctors I have had. Which amazes me, how God puts doctors in the right place at the right time.

turtle

[Night_Light]

Objective. To evaluate deaths of children from families in which faith healing was practiced in lieu of medical care and to determine if such deaths were preventable.
Design. Cases of child fatality in faith-healing sects were reviewed. Probability of survival for each was then estimated based on expected survival rates for children with similar disorders who receive medical care.
Participants. One hundred seventy-two children who died between 1975 and 1995 and were identified by referral or record search. Criteria for inclusion were evidence that parents withheld medical care because of reliance on religious rituals and documentation sufficient to determine the cause of death.
Results. One hundred forty fatalities were from conditions for which survival rates with medical care would have exceeded 90%. Eighteen more had expected survival rates of > 50%. All but three of the remainder would likely have had some benefit from clinical help.
Conclusions. When faith healing is used to the exclusion of medical treatment, the number of preventable child fatalities and the associated suffering are substantial and warrant public concern. Existing laws may be inadequate to protect children from this form of medical neglect. Pediatrics 1998; 101;625-629; child abuse, child neglect, child fatality, Christian Science, faith healing, medical neglect, prayer, religion and medicine.

[truth_child]

"faith healing " of that sort is a dangerous doctrine i just had a toe removed because of diabetes and if i had have waithed any longer i would havd to have my whole foot or all of my toes removed.

[Night_Light]

Did it hurt?

[truth_child]

i have a condition called neropothy ( may have misspelled that ) and i do not feel pain like some in my feet but the deadend it and put in in a sleepy state o i did not feel any thing nor know any thing either. but i am so gald for doctors and for medicenes that is what GOD put them here for , for us