Velvet Elvis

[bear]

I have read the book Velvet Elvis by Robb Bell.

I am curious if any others have done so, and what comments you may have on the text?

[hardbones]

Well this is the first I heard of it so all I know is what I read on the Amazon review. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
What bothers me about modern xianity is we as a church seem to have loosed from our historical moorings. I'm not talking here about charasmatic vs noncharasmatic. I mean the church as a whole. The church seems to have loosed the anchor from the scriptures to almost anything goes.
I do like the idea of a fresh take on Jesus but that has been going on for 40 yrs.
I guess you could sum my opinion up by saying we don't need a creative approach to xianity ; we need a thunderous call over the pulpits to return to historic xianity and a heartfelt response to it
All I have to go on here is the amazon review so I apologize if I missed the point of the book.

[mcmstaff78]

Hardbones, if you look at history, it was the Latin Church "loosing" itself from adherence to the Ecumenical Councils (e.g. changing the Nicene-Constantinople Creed unilaterally; declaring the Bishop of Rome to be supreme over the whole Church and the "vicar of Christ") and the subsequent "reformation" that has resulted in the plentitude of schismatic sects we see today. It is precisely because they all claim to be "anchored" in the scriptures a la sola scriptura that we see the mess we do today.

[hardbones]

Well I would more or less agree with you. God didn't split his church into hundreds of pcs. Everybody has their take and that ain't right either.
My point though is that the attitude today is that the bible and or faithfullness to it really isn't important. Believing in Jesus (of some kind) is all that really matters. And I have to fundamentally disagree with that.
A creative approach to xianity is not what we need. A return to solid teaching on the fundamentals of the faith is.

[bear]

Hardbones,

The book is not a creative approach to Christianity; it is actually a very good book that I recommend everyone read. An Amazon review is good, but the proverbial meat and taters is always the best.

The only problem with "A return to solid teaching on the fundamentals" is that the bible is open ended; it must be interpreted, and interpretation can cause problems.

I agree with you in one sense, yet sticking with the topic of this book, the issue you mentioned is addressed in detail.

[saygoodnightgracie]

I saw the short film, "Bullhorn Man" and was disgusted by Bell's tactics...

[kenseth]

I've attended a few services at Bell's church and although his "tactics" aren't for me, I do find them interesting and I can also see why he is seen as controversial and a threat to church as we know it. What I don't like is that he seems to raise more questions about God and the bible than answers, but I think he appeals to a generation that has been taught to question everything. By raising questions instead of force-feeding answers, Bell is IMO attempting to stir up people's curiosity about God and their relationship with Him and cause them to seek out the answers and their relationship with God for themselves.

[dust]

My husband and I were in a very very controlling church, one with heavy heavy yokes, always feeling like God's second hand rose. One day we accepted an invitation to attend a family member's saturday eve. service as it was "guest" night. During that service which was rather so so, they played a film named Dust. Rob Bell stars and produces in these films, and he calls them Noomas.

This 10-minute film CHANGED OUR LIFE. Rob Bell sits in his office, giving a piece of history, about how rabbis are chosen and students are chosen, etc. and that the disciples weren't the best of the best (in that day's definition) because they were working in non-clerical profession, and had not been "chosen" to follow a rabbi, until Jesus. I can't give any real justice to this film, but by the end of the 10 minutes, we were teary-eyed and felt set free. Long story short: we ordered every single Nooma, and then began to listen to Rob Bell's sermons. We downloaded everything. And we got his books on CD. Sex God is his second book and it's incredible too.

This is a book worth reading, with an open heart to try to understand just where Rob is coming from. He is an astute and solid bible teacher.

Because of HIS MINISTRY, we were able to make a much needed paradigm shift. We are quite conservative and charismatic in our faith....yet, we were able to be blessed greatly. Many others in the same church read Velvet Elvis, etc. and listened to Rob's preachings and got set free.

So maybe he's not for everyone, but for us, it was a tool to get us back to the heart of the faith, and remind us of who Jesus Christ is, who God is and who we are in relationship to him.

I suppose many here don't talk to lost twenty-year olds, but I do. We must find ways (as Paul did) to present the gospel and the truth through the culture we are in. Rob Bell has an amazing gift. In the first several months of his church, he preached to a lot of twenty-year olds out of the book of LEVITICUS. Who can pull that off? He preaches a LOT from the old testament, but in such a way that it is exciting and relatable. (which is probably why his church grew so fast.....)

We are now a post-church culture. It's a challenge...and I am excited that we seek new ways to present the gospel and that we allow people to discuss and wrestle with the scriptues.

[bear]

sgng,

What disgusted you?

[saygoodnightgracie]

I'm a bad one to give perspective, the whole "seeker sensitive", "paradigm shift", "emergent church" and the way the evangelical church vacuums it ups just grosses me out.. I can't really comment objectively.. sorry Bear

[saygoodnightgracie]

I LOVED Kirk Cameron's/Way of the Master's rebuttal to Bell's Bullhorn Man.. priceless.

[bear]

SGNG.

Kirk Cameron and Ray comfort mean well. However, their approach is not even biblical (using the 10 Commandments) if we accept what is writen in Galatians.

From a Rabbinical perspective, there are actually more than 10 commands: 11 to be exact. That is why they are refered to as the 10 utterances.

The 10 Commandments are bifurcated into:

1. Our Duties towards God (1-4)

2. Our duties towards others (5-10)

There were actually 613 laws; the 10 being the foundation which the 613 were divided. If we are going to say that the 10 are still in operation today, then the 613 must also be.

In Hebrews, God says that he put his law in our heart and wrote them on our mind (NLT)

Jesus fulfilled the law in telling us to love God and love others, thus wrapping up the bifurcation of the 10.

The law was our teacher to show us that we needed something more.

Grace, which can be defined as "Favor" is better translated "acceptance"

Therefore, because of Jesus, we are not under the law to bring us into a right position with God, rather Grace (acceptance), which is what Paul is teaching to the people in Galatia.

While I respect Ray and Kirk, I disagree with their approach for the reasons stated above.

BTW, Velvet Elvis changed my entire outlook on the nature of God, the bible, and ministry. It took over two years, but I slowly began to change as I questioned issues, along with intense study.

[bear]

Hello, Kenseth, it has been a couple of years since our last dialougue.

Bell does raise many questions. He takes the position practiced within Rabbinical Judaism, where the Rabbi's would constantly question their Talmudin, thus causing them to study and think. If you notice, Jesus did the exact same thing.
_________________________________

Dust,

Velvet Elvis changed my life and approach to ministry.

What I have found to be true, is that many people begin to read the book. Then, they read something that they disagree with, and then either:

1. Put the book down and complain.

2. Continue to read through the book looking for items to disagree with.

Robb does a great job of writing something that makes you stop and say "wait a minute, what the heck is he saying...", and then explaining it a few pages later.

It is not a "Bless me" book, written to appease. Rather a book which makes us take a hard look at what we have been taught and believe.

Anyone who states the Robb is not fully in Love with God, and preaching a heresy, has not read the book objectively, or heard his theological positions clearly.

You know this first hand.

[kenseth]

Hi bear,

I'm curious as to what you think about RLCI's stance concerning Rob Bell, which seems to be moving toward labeling him as a heretic.

[bear]

I think that they are wrong. This is only an opinion.

At one time, they embraced Robb. After the book came out, they quickly begab this labeling.

At this point in my life, I do not put much stock in what they think or say. This is based on events that took place this year (years in the making), including some long term staff members who have left the Student Ministries department.

[kenseth]

I'm of the opinion that it stems from what I've heard labeled as the fastest-growing church in America being right in Grandville's back yard.

[saygoodnightgracie]

What is RCLI?

[bear]

kenseth,

I think you may be correct as well.

1. Grandville is between 7-8,000 in weekly attendance after Duane has been there for 23 years. Mars Hill is over 10,0000 in less than 10 years.

2. Robb has legit. degrees from accredited, reputable institutions, Duane has degrees from unaccredited, correspondence schools. His Ph,D. is from Zoe College, which is no longer in existence. His undergrad is from World Harvest Bible College, and his Masters is from Indiana Christian University. Both are from Lester Sumralls ministry in South Bend Indiana. These were done via correspondence, as mentioned, with videos of Lesters teachings. In essence, they do not amount to anything in the academic world.

I love and respect Duane, but he is not tolerable of those outside his theological dogma. Also, because many have left RLC for Mars Hill, it is possible that some resentment exists. Therefore, coupled with some doctrinal disagreements, it is easy to label them as heretical.

A Pastor friend of mine, who left this year, was speaking with Duanes son Josh on what could make RLC grow. Josh's response was: "Easy, start preaching heresy".

I used to be on staff at RLC, so my opinions and information are not just shots in the dark. They are, however, opinions.

[bear]

sgng,

RLCI stands for Resurrection Life Church's International.

It is an organization of church's. The Mother church is in Grandville, MI, and they have planted 18 church's, most with the same name. There are two levels of chruch's:

1. Associate
2. Affiliate

Many existing church's have come under the banner for leadership and support, while all remain individually run. Therefore the grand total of church's is closer to 30, a few are out of state, and one is in South Korea.

[kenseth]

bear,

I heard about your Pastor friend leaving. I didn't hear the circumstances, but I was pretty surprised. I've known him for a long time. I may know you, but I'd rather not get into specifics. I'm sure you understand and feel the same.

[saygoodnightgracie]

"Easy, start preaching heresy". I love it!... I don't know about heresy but "Josh" is right - just water it down baby, use the NLT, spoon feed 'em, give him little outlines to follow and fill in the blanks, sing TO them instead of having them worship God THEMSELVES, have concert style worship services with lights and smoke, wear your seeker sensitive pastor costume (short spiky hair, squarish black frame glasses, hip square-toed shoes and untucked dress shirt and talk about "paradigm shifts", "relationships" and how YOU think God is a lot different than how the REST of us think God is... you'll fill a church up REAL quick.

Just ask Rob Bell, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, etc.

[kenseth]

sgng,

I see your point and the general lack of "holiness" (gross generalization, I know) in the church as a whole today, but having come out of an extremely controlling church (if you can call it that) I find parts of your statement to be quite alarming. I don't see how putting "regulations" on lights, or smoke, or how the pastor dresses is anything more than Pharisaic. I've been to Mars Hill and Willow Creek and athough I personally believe there is a "deeper calling" that God has for us in relationship with Him, I can't just discount those ministries as "null and void". They are reaching people with the love of God and they are bringing people into a saving relationship with Him and I don't know how it can be called anything but Pharisaic to label them as heretics for not fitting (or trying to cram others) into my religious box.

[saygoodnightgracie]

A) NO ONE said put regulations on lights, smoke and clothing. Read Romans 12:2 please.

B) NO ONE said null and void.

C) NO ONE here said heretical. In fact, I said "I don't know about heretical".

D) Most importantly, Bill Hybels HIMSELF has stated that the programs, the clothing, the music, the hip atmosphere, the move towards bringing the world into the church instead of taking the church into the world has NOT helped develop believers. HE said it, not me.

"I see your point and the general lack of "holiness" (gross generalization, I know) in the church as a whole today, but having come out of an extremely controlling church" These two extremes are NOT related. You think they are becuase you went from a controlling church to a permissive (gross generalization, as you say). What's wrong with a "normal" church? You will find God there brother.

If you knew what I knew (and Hybels knows, btw) about seeker sensitive churches - you would understand. But I do not go for bashing other ministers and ministries. These men need to do what God has called them to do. If they say God has called them to make the church experience as secular as possible, who I am to question what they heard?

As long as it's relevant, as long as it's interrelational, as long as it's emergent... it's gotta be good - right?

[saygoodnightgracie]

I have been to Willow Creek... Personally.

Saw it with my own eyes. NO Bibles anywhere. Shorts and flip-flops. NO Scriptures used. We watched a skit about pornography. Then a man gave a talk about pornography. NO Scriptures used. Worship team sang to us, we did NOT stand and worship God in song ourselves.

This is NOT what I heard, this is what I SAW. If I am a Pharisee, what are they?

[kenseth]

I was referring to your implications. You didn't come out and say it, but you may as well have.

I don't think that the lights, smoke, and clothing issue is a Rom 12:2 issue. It's a culture issue and our relationship with God and our worship of Him should not be negated by issues of culture, otherwise it is what I would call religious in the Pharisaic sense.

The statement that Hybels made about developing believers is true. It's why I don't attend a "seeker friendly" church, but I can't deny that his church is bringing more people into saving relationship with God than the church that I attend. I may consider it a bit "shallow", but I respect what they are doing. And besides, these churches eventually end up feeding the more "normal" churches in the surrounding community. As people desire more of God, they move on to churches that can feed them with what they desire.

I wasn't relating the extremes. I was relating my experience with what you said. have concert style worship services with lights and smoke, wear your seeker sensitive pastor costume (short spiky hair, squarish black frame glasses, hip square-toed shoes and untucked dress shirt" and Shorts and flip-flops Both references to how people dress. What difference does it make? Wearing a coat and tie is more distracting to my worship of God than anything because it's uncomfortable. It's like putting handcuffs on and then trying to lift my hands in worship.

I'll just say that my experience at Willow Creek was different than yours. There were bibles and scripture references in the message and we all stood and sang songs.

[cybermom]

OK, have to jump into this. I've never read the book and now am intrigued and have to buy it. I should be from Missouri - have to see it for myself kinda gal.

SGNG - when were you at Willow Creek? Recently? Was it a Sunday service? I'm not trying to argue, just narrow things done a little.

We left an extremely controlling "church" also; then went to a much more "relaxed" church that helped us heal. Then we moved on because we wanted more depth to our spiritual walk. This second place was definitely morphing into a seeker sensitive, post-modern environment and we weren't always comfortable with that. Our present church falls somewhere in the middle; we welcome anyone in, but our pastor doesn't mince words when it comes to preaching - he's a former teacher and is an excellent teacher/Bible scholar. Uh-oh, tho, he does have spiky hair, but no untucked shirts (what does that have to do with making him a good pastor/teacher??)

And SGNG, what's wrong with the NLT? It's not a bad translation and I like it when I just want to sit down, relax and read the Word. I also read the Message, the Amplified, and NIV. I almost prefer it to the NIV; I was "raised" on NASB, the preferred text of my former cult. Can't crack that puppy open anymore, sends chills up my spine. Don't want to start a whole translation thing. Just curious.

[bear]

sgng,

I understand how you must feel.

I am with kenseth, as described in the second paragraph above. I also want to add some things:


1. Worship style and dress are a matter of culture; there is not a correct way to dress as a pastor, or for church.

A suit and tie is just as much a "costume" as square-toed shoes and untucked dress shirts. It is all a matter of a church's particular flare, besides, our style of clothing (other than shot-shorts) does not have anything to do with holiness.

I hardly ever wear my shurt tucked in, and my Kenneth Cole shoes are square-toed. It is MY style. I preached with these items for years.

I do, however, see your point through the sardonic tone.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif


2. The NLT.

All English versions of the bible are just that: Versions; translations.

Some are good, some not so good.

For years I used the KJV and NKJV. I would not read the NLT for I thought that it was just the Living Bible repackaged. I was wrong.

The NLT is actually one of the best modern translations. No, it does not follow the Textus Receptus that the KJV follows, but its acuuracy is amazing.

Most translation are "word for word". That is good, but many times the English does not have a word which captures the beauty of the Greek. Also, cultural language does not always transcend in a word for word translation.

The NLT is a "thought for thought" translation, putting the original meaning in the best modern language for better understanding. Iy is NOT A PARAPHRASE translation.

<font color="ff0000">Note: the New Testament was written in the everyday street language of the average person.</font><font color="000000">

A thought for thought translation is more intense than word for word. First, a word for word must be completed, then the thought for thought, with reference to Higher Critisism (history, culture, social issues, etc), thus bringing us the finished product.

I have studied translations for many years, and outside of the NKJV, this is the best that I have seen. It is my bible of choice.</font>

[kenseth]

bear,

What do you think of the TNIV? On my few visits to Mars Hill, I noticed that Rob Bell was using one.

[bear]

I used it a few times, many years now, for clarification on certain verses while preaching.

I am not a big fan of the NIV, though certain verses are translated with an easier to understand wording, e.g., Galations 5 use of "Lust of the flesh" is easier translated in the NIV as "Acts of the sinful nature".

That would be my only use for the NIV: English clarification.

BTW we may know each other, true. I have a couple of questions, and if you decide that for secrecy sake that you do not wish to answer, that is AOK.

1. Do you attend an RLC church?
2. If so, which city?
3. Did you ever work in the Student or Childrens ministry, attend CLST?

[kenseth]

I'm in GH now, but Leon was my youth pastor. Worked in Jr/Sr High for about a year with Scott a little over 10 years ago.

(Message edited by kenseth on December 30, 2007)

[pebbles]

I remember when Mars hill first opened their doors in the Home School building in Wyoming, MI. People were flocking there! They were searching for something different. This is not a fancy building they meet in or a suit and tie affair. this is down to earth services touching people where they are at today.


I feel some of these big business traditional churches may feel threatened and concerned they are losing their flock and finances to ministries like Mars Hill.

[bear]

kenseth,

Did you know Al S. or John G. as well?

(Message edited by bear on December 31, 2007)

[kenseth]

Yes I know both of them, but it's been years since I've talked to either. I went to high-school with Al's wife.

(Message edited by kenseth on December 31, 2007)

[bear]

Wow!

Well, it is great that you are in GH. P.B. is a great man, and GH is great church.

BTW, I love Leon. He is a great person, and was a terrific youth pastor.

[kenseth]

Yeah, it's been a while since I talked with him too. I saw him a couple of years ago at GH, but that was it. I heard he was going to try to start something in Allendale.

[bear]

That would be cool!!!!!!!!

BTW, I too know Al's wife.

Do the letters TB mean anything to you?

Identity and what is said on factnet, stays on fact net, agreed? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[kenseth]

Agreed on identity. TB makes me think I know who you are, but I can't remember your last name at the moment. I'm terrible with names. If you are who I think you are, I do remember your wife's name.

(Message edited by kenseth on December 31, 2007)

[kenseth]

OK, I don't know what TB is then.

[bear]

Understood. I was thinking that you may be someone else.

Do you have any other members in your family that are in ministry?

[kenseth]

We were roomies at camp one year.

[bear]

Got ya!!

It has been some time, eh?

[kenseth]

Yeah, long time. I'm not sure this is the media to try and catch up, but it's good to hear from you.

[bear]

I agree 100% My apologies for taking it this far. Curiosity and forcing myself to stay up, for my sons sake, to watch the ball drop.

We will leave the personables to the tabloids.

Happy New Year.

[saygoodnightgracie]

Haha I barely made it too...

[saygoodnightgracie]

This is interesting, check out the vid at the following address... at least Hybels admits when he's wrong, of course he's a Chicagoan so I expect nothing less.

http://heresyhunter.blogspot.com/2007/10/bill-hybels-we-were-wrong.html