New Apostolic Reformation

[88 (68.90.139.44)]

Has anyone heard of this one?

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Yes, absolutely. This is a movement spearheaded by Dr. C. Peter Wagner ("convening apostle").

They believe that they are the newly restored foundational apostles--they believe that they have been anointed by God to bring the entire church under their governmental authority, thus fulfilling the Great Commission (renamed the "Apostolic Mandate" by one of the core group) and allowing Christ to come back.

This is a movement of largely New Order of the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God adherents. They are also responsible for promoting such concepts as spiritual mapping, binding and loosing of territorial spirits, corporate/territorial repentance, finding and labeling demons, etc. Their theology is largely based in old Gnostic heresies.

Some good sites to begin researching the New Apostolic Reformation are:

www.banner.org.uk (http://www.banner.org.uk)
www.deceptioninthechurch.com (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com)
http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts1.htm

BTW, there is a new DVD expose on the New Apostolic Reformation available through the second site I listed. I've just ordered it for myself.

BTW, there are also some posts regarding the New Apostolic Reformation on the Maranatha Latter Rain discussion thread--the Morning Star International movement of churches is part of the New Apostolic Reformation. There are many others, however. You can go to Wagner's site at www.globalharvestministries.org (http://www.globalharvestministries.org) to find out who else is involved and what they are up to.

They are HUGE. They are also, by and large, HERETICAL.

See this--from someone who used to work closely with Wagner and now claims that it is on the verge of being a "cult": PTID34418%7CCHID137699%7CCIID1368302%2C00.html,htt p://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID34418%7CCHID137699%7CCIID1368302,00.html (http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0%2C)

ulyankee

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Oops, that last link didn't work. You can do a Google search for the following article: "The Problem with Most Church Growth Paradigms" and it will come up.

Here's the part of the article I referenced above, though:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Apostolic Movement: This is a new movement that was started by one of McGavran’s prot&eacute;g&eacute;s, Clarence Peter Wagner. They set up large training centers and what they call harvest meetings.

The Positive: This model emphasizes prayer, which is one of the quintessential aspects of exercising our faith, call, and role in the church! It also opens our eyes to the reality of spiritual warfare.

The Negative: I personally worked with Wagner for over five years. He was a friend and mentor to me. I was at one of his harvest meetings recently, (11/01 Pasadena, Ca), where I was shocked and appalled! They are on the verge of cult status with crazy, unbiblical doctrine. They claim to be real apostles, they search for demons under every bush, and they lift prophecy over and against Biblical precepts. They have a total disregard of solid, essential Biblical doctrine. They ridicule people who hold to the Bible, while they lift themselves up rather than our Lord! If you are very, very, very discerning, you can pick up some good insights on prayer and some other things, but it will be like digging through trash to find bottles!</BLOCKQUOTE>

[88 (68.90.139.44)]

I found out this link works


PTID34418,http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID34418 (http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0%2C)|CHID137699|CIID1368302,00.html

I agree with Richard about Wagners crazy unbiblical doctrine but his Fifteen Health Factors for American Churches
sound lile they are straight from the Porpose Drive Life.

I am ordering that CD you mentiones also
Have you ever been involved in NAR?

[88 (68.90.139.44)]

OOPS it won't ok so you take of the first part before the http and it works

[FreshStart (128.194.115.135)]

I'm very glad that someone started this subject as its own thread. I truly believe, based on personal experiences with someone who claims to be an apostle, that the entire "Apostolic Reformation" is one of the greatest dangers in the church world today. I wrote about my experiences with this apostle and his apostolic network on a separate thread here:
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/923.html?1095355944#POST61971

The Apostolic Reformation movement shifts the focus from God and His Word to man and his word. It can easily become idolatrous, as followers of this heretical movement seek every new word, every new "truth" given by anyone claiming to be an apostle or prophet associated with this movement. The Word cautions us not to be carried by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:4), yet that is precisely what this movement does to its followers that become ensnared in it. The movement contains many cult characteristics, including authoritarianism and pyramidic hierarchical structures, covenant loyalty, and exalting men and their prophetic words and "present-day truths" (an apostolic catch phrase) above the Word of the Lord, even where discrepancies are obvious. The self-named apostles I and numerous friends of mine have had experiences with were very condescending, elitist, isolationist, and arrogant. They claim to be on the only cutting edge of what the Lord is doing, namely to tear down all of the old and current religous structures to usher in new truths and apostolic grace.

An excellent series of articles entitled "Attack of the Super Apostles" is at Cultwatch.org. This is a cult watch organization based out of New Zealand, but contains information applicable to just about anywhere. To access the articles, just go to http://cultwatch.org and then click on the tab that says "Attack of the Super Apostles".

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

.44,

I am a former member of a Morning Star International church.

I came out of there for two reasons:

(1) they are descended from Maranatha Campus Ministries, one of the predominant campus cults of the 1970s and 1980s, and they teach and promote essentially the same doctrines and practices that got them labeled a cult in the first place;

(2) they are very much in the inner circle of the New Apostolic Reformation and all that entails.

I've gone into a ton of detail about my experiences on the Maranatha board, if you are interested in more details than that. Or you can write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com. I've done quite a bit of research on the New Apostolic Reformation and have read a lot of what has come out of the movement, and so I'm fairly informed on what they teach and practice.

C. Peter Wagner was Rick Warren's mentor at Fuller Theological Seminary. (I have a copy of his dissertation, which is essentially a first draft of Purpose Driven Church.) So the parallels you see between the two are not coincidental, since Wagner trained Warren in church growth principles.

ulyankee

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

.135,

I agree... the CultWatch articles are also excellent. I love the graphics on that site! As well as the "Cult Meter" survey!

I took that survey before I left my former church and my answers set it off the scale. :-)

[88 (68.94.153.206)]

Freshstart-Is World Breakthrough Network under the NAR or Peter WAgner? I only wish my churh was this blatent in their behavior.
They look good they preach good but they still have the same belief system and secrecy but the elietism was evident.
I didn't know anything for many years.

I never even heard anyone called an apostle.
I didn't know they were Kingdom NOW.
I found out because Wagner was speaking at a MSI conference. With help from the wonderfull web pages that care enough about others to tell the truth about these heresy's and the connections. I then took a crash course researching Wagner, eschatology and hermenutics. I didn't even know what those words meant. I was in such shock to see what OUR churh was connected with.
All I knew was that over the years I was getting sick to my stomach every Sunday and Wedensday
The more I prayed the worse it got.

I am glad to see people talking about it because it is lonely out there. My old friends don't want to hear any facts about their church and I have so much information but no one to talk to but Jesus of course and my spouse.

[88 (68.94.153.206)]

ULyankee- You are well informed and thank you
I would like more on the link with Wagner and Warren. Actually the first thing that caught my
attention and me lookout was that our MSI chruch
went through 40 days of purpose. That was what I checked out first. This whole thing is confusing
because they are all together but seperate.

Have you seen www.crossroad.to
Spirit led or purpose driven? That is about
Rick Warens ties to the UN. Long but good.

These people with websites that warn others about apostacy I think are the true prophets of today.
of course they would not call themselves such but they are certainly my heroes in the faith.

[Bob (69.150.192.32)]

Has anyone been around CP Wagner much? He looks so calm and understanding but says some wacky things. I was wondering if anyone has ever known him more than watching him speek.

I guess I am saying..Is he for real?

[All For Jesus (152.163.101.13)]

Cultwatch, recommended by FreshStart is absolutely not a good or proper means of determining the 'cult status' of a church or leader. There means of determining if a church is a 'Super Apostle Church', etc., is not only unbiblical, but illogical, unfair, and dangerous. Their Super Apostle Detector would be funny if it was not such a serious subject.

See below the e-mail I sent to them. Let's see if and how they respond.

To whom it may concern,

I was amazed as I read your website, especially the section on Super Apostles. I was even more so as I answered the questions on the 'Super Apostle Detector' This section gave instructions with the flippant: "Wondering if your church leader is a Super Apostle? Find out by using the CULTWATCH SUPER APOSTLE DETECTOR" and "Happy scanning"

First of all, if indeed someone was in a cult and under the oppressive powers of mind control, how is this type of language at all godly or appropriate? "Happy scanning"?

Second, giving advice that could lead to a major decision such as uprooting one's family and life from a church based the suggestion that someone could know if their 'church leader is a Super Apostle' by 'using the CULTWATCH SUPER APOSTLE DECTECTOR' is not only dangerous, but highly unbiblical. The bible gives us clear directions on how to approach someone who is in sin, or who has offended us.

Then, I actually answered the questions therein and came to the following conclusions based on several scenarios of just answering certain questions and receiving the advice that "You are at risk" and that I should "Consider leaving if things get worst (sic)"

Scenario 1 gives me that advice based on answering "Yes" to the following questions:

1. Does your church give your leaders expensive gifts to 'honor' them?

2. Does your church put a lot of pressure on people to tithe? Does it seem as though they go on about it?

3. Are the rich treated any differently from the average folk in your church?

4. Are you expected to wear the latest fashionable clothes to church, and do other things to make the church appear affluent?

Do you all realize that answering "Yes" to these questions would make over 90% of the Churches in the world worthy to be considered leaving, and that those in them are 'at risk'? The subjective nature of these questions alone make them illegitimate means of discerning any type of cultic activity in a church. What is 'expensive'? What is 'a lot of pressure', and 'does it seem'? What does it mean to treat someone 'differently', and what is your definition of 'rich'? And so on...


Scenario 2 gives the same advice as Scenario 1 in answering the following questions positively:

1. Are the rich treated any differently from the average folk in your church?

2. If you thought your leader had taught something unscriptural, would you be very scared to approach him regarding your concern?

3. Have you heard the term ‘church government’ used?

4. Have you been told that your church is a ‘theocracy’ and not a ‘democracy’?

Again, this would apply to many churches, including some of the Baptist denominations on your 'board' that gives you accountability and oversight. Do you know how many people, in the great majority of churches are 'scared to approach' their leader if they thought he taught something unscriptural? And hearing the term 'church government' in combination with rich people being treated differently in a non-congregational church automatically illicits a warning that I am at risk and that I should not talk to my leaders about this, but to consider leaving! This is amazing...you all cannot really believe this is a healthy method by which to help people!


Scenario 3 got me the following strongest of all warnings for answering "Yes" to five questions: Super Apostle mind control methods detected. "You are in a Super Apostle church. Strongly recommend you read all Super Apostle articles on this site. Leaving is your best option." They are:

1. Does your Pastor claim to have an 'Apostolic Mandate'?

2. Does your Pastor claim to be an Apostle?

3. Has your Pastor used the term 'Apostolic Authority'?

4. Is it implied that your church, or group of churches, are the only church(es) really following God in your country?

4. Have you heard the term ‘church government’ used?

Do you realize that this would have emptied Martin Luther's churches during the Protestant Reformation of the early to mid 1500's? Do your research and you will see that Luther 1) Claimed to have an apostolic mandate, 2) Claimed to be an apostle (and allowed others to call him such), 3) Implied that his church(es) and doctrines are the only ones who were really following God in Germany/Europe (In fact, he concluded that those who we would call Evangelicals today, were more demonic than the Catholic Church themselves!, 4) The term 'church government' was not only used, but spoken of.

I do not really think that you will give this e-mail much credence or thought, however, I beg you to think a little bit about the amount of spiritual pain, havoc and confusion you can cause simply by creating a superficial means by which believers are supposed to be able to tell if they are at risk.


Finally, your pop-up warning after that states: "It looks like you are in a Super Apostle Church…it would be great if you e-mailed us at cultwatch@cultwatch.com and let us know the score (found in the status bar below) along with the name of your church and leader. Be assured that any details identifying you will be kept strictly confidential."

In my opinion again violates the Biblical prescription for these sorts of things. How can you build a database of 'cults' and 'cult leaders' when you have not spoken in person, nor confronted them in anyway?

Well, if you are still reading, thank you for your time. On your website you mentioned that if one would like to know more about the group to whom Cultwatch is accountable, that they could request that information. I would appreciate the names of those trustees, and a means by which I could contact them.

-----------------

The vast amount of flippant ease that fills cultwatch.org is not only dangerous for those who go to that site looking for answers, but for cultwatch.org and its authors. Romans 2.1ff and Matthew 7.1ff clearly warns against inaccurate judgments. There are clear Biblical directives for judging another brother regarding sin, and even doctrinal sins. Cultwatch itself is a form of mind control, controlling, from a safe and easy distance, lives and churches that do not align to their personal interpretations of certain Bible passages.

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Ok, here is the dissertation listing from the FirstSearch library database, showing that Dr. Wagner was Warren's mentor:

Title: NEW CHURCHES FOR A NEW GENERATION: CHURCH PLANTING TO REACH BABY BOOMERS. A CASE STUDY: THE SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH (CALIFORNIA)
Author(s): WARREN, RICHARD DUANE
Degree: D.MIN.
Year: 1993
Pages: 00413
Institution: FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790
Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
Source: DAI, 54, no. 03A, (1993): 0967
Abstract: One out of every three Americans alive today was born during the eighteen year period between 1947 and 1964. These 74,000,000 adults are the Baby Boom Generation. Today the youngest of the Baby Boomers is 24 and the oldest is 41 years old. In addition to being the largest generation of Americans, Baby Boomers are unique in their attitudes, values, and lifestyles. There are significant cultural differences between the Baby Boomer and the generations that both precede and follow them.

A People magazine survey found that only 11% of Baby Boomers regularly attend church. The basic argument of this dissertation is that most Baby Boomers will never be reached by traditional churches. We must establish new churches to reach this new generation of Americans. It will require new churches that understand the Baby Boom mindset and are intentionally designed to meet their needs, tastes, and interests.

During the past thirteen years, I have been researching, testing, and implementing principles and programs to reach Baby Boomers. I began the Saddleback Valley Community Church in January, 1980 in my home with my wife and the first family I met when I moved to the area. My target was to reach Baby Boomers. Today, the church averages about 6,000 in attendance. Over 50% of the members are Baby Boomers and nearly 70% were saved and baptized at the church.

Our church has sponsored 20 daughter churches since it began. In each of these new churches we have used the same strategy with good results. I believe the strategy we're developing at Saddleback is reproducible in other new church starts.


SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: RELIGION, CLERGY
EDUCATION, RELIGIOUS
THEOLOGY
Accession No: AAG9320131
Database: Dissertations

***************************************

Warren also cites many of Wagner's church growth works throughout the dissertation--8 in all.

Much can be made of Warren's connection with Peter Drucker (you can find all kinds of things on that on the 'Net), but he only cites 2 of Drucker's works in his dissertation.

BTW, anyone who has gone to grad school can tell you that you generally don't get your advisor/mentor chosen for you. You usually select one based on your primary area of interest/research. However, getting a well-known advisor isn't always easy, since many others may also request that person to be their advisor. All this to say that it is likely not accident or coincidence that Wagner, THE church growth expert at Fuller at the time, was Warren's dissertation mentor.

ulyankee

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

And that was what sent me looking for more about Warren... our local MSI church went through 40 Days of Purpose too.

If you want to write me off board, feel free: ulyankee@yahoo.com

ulyankee

[Sandy (68.94.152.137)]

ulyankee-I won't write you off. I appreciate anyone who is willing to look and and share the facts.
That is rare these days.

I have to admit to you all that one of the things that helped me when I was so asleep is I listened to the JSM radio station Right now there is a guy
from agetoage.org as a guest speaker.

JS wife Francis has a radio show at 9-12 am and pm where they talk about all this stuff.
You can see if you have a station by going to JSM.org and checking.

I didn't particularly (and perhaps still don't care for Jimmy but he does preach only the cross and how churches are moving away from it)I am open minded like JSwaggart but I can tell you that listening to them has been major in opening my eyes when I didn't even know what they were talking about but I knew it was something that validated what I felt im my gut.

I know that we wont all agree on everything but being decieved as we all were shoud help use to know that we need to check things out in the word
I don't agree 100% with everything they or probably anyone else says but I so do appreciate you all.

[Anonymous (130.70.157.190)]

Thanks Sandy...

I didn't mean at all to imply that you would write me off though... I was just inviting you to write me at my email address in case you ever wanted to correspond "off the board." :-)

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

blessings,
ulyankee

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

I have always like JSwaggart. He is very simple when he explains the scriptures. I love the simplicity of it all. He does preach about the cross, which you rarely hear that any longer in any ministries.
In my former church, MSI, they never preach the cross come to think of it. NOT ONCE !

[sandy (68.94.153.25)]

gg-I guess JS had to live through his problems to discover that the cross was more then the way to salvation but that it is the way for every problem thereafter.

What kind of church are you in now?

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Currently I am in a prophetic church. The senior pastor is a prophetic teacher, Thats what I prayed for when I left MSI, its because I was so depleted of God's Word in MSI. And I asked around and was led to this church. Its pretty advaced prophetically. Moving in the Spirit. And I love it. Very Well balanced. You need a notebook here and a bible because there is a lot of scriptures that the pastor will show. I also like my pastor a lot because he is so down to earth. Even having more than 1,000 people in the church. Doesn't mind being corrected in public. His humility amazes me. Very opposite of MSI. The staff are well - paid, unlike MSI the staff are underpaid and only the Leaders in MSI makes a lot of money.

[All For Jesus (205.188.117.20)]

Dear GG,

You had better be careful, because according to cultwatch.org's Super Apostle Detector, if your church 'honors' leadership with expensive gifts, and teaches strongly on tithing, you may be at risk of being in a cult! And, if people wear expensive clothes the percentage of certainty that you are in a cult rises quite a bit. Just be sure that no one says the phrase 'Church government'!

You may say that I am being ridiculous, but those are the facts here on factnet. You can check it out for your self on cultwatch.org. They are there to help your mind not be controlled! (Well, except by them)

[GG (198.81.26.106)]

ALL For Jesus, don't worry about the cultwatch.org
Jesus was never worried about the pharasees slandering or gossiping about HIm. He is not into Public Relation. Even when Jesus was dying on the cross, they hurl scriptures at Him.
Bible said, He made Himself of no reputation. I am not worried about the Super Apostle detector.

My pastor don't teaches strongly on tithing, His stand is more on if God told you to give here, then give it here but if God told you to give it someplace else, give it someplace else, because Jesus is the Provider, not your tithes and offerings.

[GG (172.196.50.85)]

AllforJesus,

you must also understand, the prophecy concerning false apostolic movement has come. Since the year 2000, I don't know who started it, any somebody start prophesying that God is about to restore apostles, because of it, churches and ministries start to jump into the bandwagon of apostles. The seat of Apostle, that title will bring in people who are COntrolling and love of Power . ITs like the title of a doctor has a nice ring to it. I can call myself a doctor without a license, but in time it will prove that I am not and I will pay the consequences. The same thing with an apostles, too many people who have problem with Control call themselves apostles, because of the Glory that comes with it. NOT the Job itself that its attractive but the power to dictate .

I rather measure a person by scriptures if a person is an apostle or not. Rev.2:2 said to test them... God definitely is not against testing them.

Currently what I see is this, there are more false apostles than real ones. And some are way too obvious. I have seen real ones and heard them preach and its AWESOME ! and the fake ones tries to copies it and its laughable.

The bible said narrow is the road, People can get extreme and can fall either way, left or right. Some believed too much about apostles that they refused to check if they are real. ANd some just totally reject the whole idea of an apostle. Balance to all of this is the key Word.

My suggestion to you is to listen to a REAL apostle preach then you will know in your heart what is real. Discernment is always the best defense .

Let me give you one name , my favorite preacher, He is truly an apostle, GRAHAM COOKE. This man is from England. he is getting well known in america. Look for him in the internet, buy one of his tapes, and listen and discern. And you will see how Mature he is, far more mature than Steve murrell. Though I love Steve a lot and his preaching, but nothing so far beats Graham Cooke.

[All For Jesus (205.188.117.20)]

GG...I couldn't agree with you more. Whenever God restores something to the Church, from Luther through Wesley through Seymour and on to the present, there is always an influx of the false. There are apostles by calling and apostles by rumor! I have seen the ridiculous, money-hungry, power-hungry, and ethically-starved counterfeit and I agree that people should be warned about them. However, that warning comes from within a belief system that understands and accepts the theological position of present day apostles.

True apostles are foundation-builders who build the church with wisdom and accuracy that comes from the gift of God within them.

cultwatch.org, et.al., would take the position that the above mentioned theological position itself is a warning signal of a cult. This is my problem with them.

[Sandy (65.70.111.248)]

About all these Apostles
I think there might be apostles today as there are toungs and miracles and giftings but the Apostles today are not FOUNDATIONAL apostles
The foundation was laid with the first apostles
and no one can lay it again.
I COR 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


Today in the church if apostles and prophets
are building the church they are just laying the roof tiles. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

There is one problem Sandy almost all the foundations of the church area are lost in the church today. Now, instead of practicing Lordship, they made man to be the Lord of their life. Jesus being the Head of the church , instead now its the church goverment /apostles becomes the head of the church or The covering doctrine , instead Jesus is the one covering us, now its the pastor or the church covering thats covering us.

No MAN can lay a foundation other than Jesus Christ. No, these apostles are not suppose to lay
another foundation but they are suppose to bring the church back to the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Not another doctrine or new Age teachings like the false apostles are doing.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Here is a sample of an apostolic teaching so you will know the difference of a real apostles and false ones. THough this teachings did not came from Graham Cooke but some other apostles.

Learn to think by revelation, because the things of the Spirit ARE ONLY
SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

Let me show you how MSI teaches and how Apostolic/Prophetic teaching
differs. >
> Do you remember the woman who was sick and touch the hem of Jesus, this
is
the woman with the issue of blood.

OK this is how MSI teaches, first dimension of preaching is like this,
that
there is a woman who is sick and maybe there is something about Jesus ,
(reading the scripture)
second dimension of preaching is this, do you remember this woman who
has an
issue of blood, now by faith she reach out, now reach out, reach out,
reach
reach out , touch it ! Now you take the actual story and put it in a spiritual
idea and try to put the people into that mode and visualized it you call
that FAITH.

NOW this is is the THIRD Dimensional preaching, by REVELATION.
1. Who is the woman ?
The church.
2. What was wrong with her ?
She is hemorrhaging, she is not bleeding from her nose nor her
ears,
she is bleeding from the point of intimate relationship. , she has
really
gone to the place that she is not productive.

3. How long has she been hemorrhaging ?
12 years, the number of foundation, she lost all her foundation. Her
structure is gone.
>
4. what did she do ?
She went to her physician
5. Who are those ?
those religious helpers ,

6. what happened tO HER ?
SHE GAVE ALL HER MONEY...

7. What did she get back ?
SHE GOT WORSE.

8. What did she do then ?
She press, that means she took all her energy and efforts that
others
didn't.

9. What did she touch ?
The hem of the garment...

what is the garment, The Garment was supposed to be US christians. Who
can
lay hands on the sick , and minister to people and heal people.... Thats
why
Christ is in you... Instead we have a church that turned to a heroism,
where
we have people to pray certain to a people and so we have lost the whole
power of the Body minisitry. We were supposed to effect the whole world
with
the kingdom of God.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - I don't know if you have ever been very ill. But, during an illness that I had, this was my favorite scripture. My understanding of this scripture on the first dimension - the simplist level - was that I was sick and my prayers could touch Jesus and He could and would heal me. Maybe that seems to simple to you and maybe it doesn't have enough revelation for you. But, the word of God with it's simplist interpretation, saved my life.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

You also have to understand, The church is very sick right now also and they do need Jesus. When Jesus preach people needed to be born-again, He preach it not to the unbelievers but to Nicodemus who is a leader of the church.

The scripture above is not just for you but for everybody.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - you don't need to be prophetic to know the church is sick. It is by design.

Matthew 9
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

What you posted above is adding to scripture.

Revalations 22
17Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. 18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

GG - also - I did not mean to imply that this scripture was just for me. I gave my testimony to show how a simple interpretation has power. I understand that the healing power of Jesus Christ is for everyone.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

205.188.117.20 , What was posted above, is a revelation not for everybody. You may get your revelation from the first dimension. But others from the third dimension. Yes its true Jesus healing Power may not be just physically, but it can also be Spiritually.
And I don't know which part that was added to the scriptures.

[GG (64.136.27.226)]

Where I came from there are far worse things added to the scriptures . ANd I have posted that above.
=================

its the church goverment /apostles becomes the head of the church or The covering doctrine , instead Jesus is the one covering us, now its the pastor or the church covering thats covering us.
Some of them even say you are NOT allowed to preach the gospel unless you graduate from VLI.
=================

There are far more worse things that was added in the church, sometimes, we all needed to step back a little and look at the whole picture instead of the smallest details of what was said or written.

Though I admit , I have found guilty of doing that and will try to avoid it. But mistakes do happen.

[88 (65.67.239.4)]

This board is continued under
Maranatha Latter Rain
See ya there!!

[Anonymous (216.119.134.153)]

Hello A 205.188 What you Posted is not only adding but changing scripture. This is why no one knows what is true. Matthew 9: 10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. and Revelation:17:7And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Anonymous (65.230.198.163)]

Apostle, Bishop, and Overseer, etc. are unfotunately titles that are usually self-given by ego-maniacs in the pulpit, who are not content to be just pastors, evangleists or teachers (because these titles are more like job descriptions, whereas Apostle, Prophet, Prophetess, Bishop, and Overseer have the unspoken quality to them that is supposed to make us recognize that these people are "extra Special" and "highly annointed" and better than "just ordinary ministers" are.) In today's society and in the church of today- it is strictly a title born out of an ego trip !

[lilly (lilly)]

Has anyone heard of Spirit Life International apostolic prophetic ministry center, based in Louisiana? It is run by Pastors Mike and Jan Dale. She also used to have Jan Dale Ministries, where she claims to be a prophetess. They are an apostolic prophetic ministry. They also run the Spirit Empowered School of Ministry.

[franklin (franklin)]

Prophetess = Sorceress.

[issachar (issachar)]

Re; Dimentional teaching - Some time ago I had a season of study in a bible school and one of the simple truths that I learnt there was that there is only one truth, but there are many who will pervert that truth, either with good motive or bad, according to own opinion, because of personal experiences or as they have been taught by others just as ignorant.

Romans 1;21
because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Having spent time in ministry, one of the modern diseases which is driving people away from the bible and Christianity are these spiritual/intelectual acrobatics which confuse people who really need and want God, to the point that they simply give up and walk away.

In my experience, the one thing that has given them hope and allowed them to return to their faith is telling them to dump the stuff that's doesn't really mean anything to them and pointing the way back to the simple gospel of salvation.

I do believe in the prophetic ministry especially and it has often been an encouragement and a reminder that God is there all the time.

The apostolic movement appears to be something in which it appears a little harder to judge the validity of the many ministries or networks or to question the credibility of it's often self appointed "apostles".

Perhaps this is exactly why many unqualified ministers announce themselves to be apostles and their ministries to be apostolic. After all the only other option for their questionable doctrines is that they are in error.

Perhaps this is also why we should be extra careful and discerning if invited to submit to one of these ministries.

My own opinion is that if, as a mature Christian, I have difficulty understanding/accepting some new teaching especially after study and prayer, it's either not for me for whatever reason or then it's not right. Either way what I do is kind of "put it on the shelf" until it proves itself to be one or the other, right or wrong.

[franklin (franklin)]

Very good post!

[kpbruinfan (kpbruinfan)]

I've done a fairly good amount of personal research on these matters and the above postings are well thought and thorough. What I think is key to understand the Warren-Hybels paradigm is that it's Jesus-lite. The gospel of Christ is offensive. We are sinners separated from God and we need salvation through Jesus Christ to redeem us. Warren makes no secret that he doesn't teach this from the pulpit but in a less threatening "Sunday School" format. The endgame object? People in the seats = $$$. It's also interesting to read on the connection of this ministry type to the institution of a "New World Order" through the United Nations in order to establish the formal man-led Apostate Church. I read only this morning of New Age documentation about making an attempt to bring "Christ" back for his second coming using Hollywood special effects to usher in the New World Order. The ironic thing is that it all ties in and goes back to Fuller Theological Seminary. Donald McGavran, who was one of the original founders there, taught that new converts won by missionaries should remain as close to their cultural ties as possible to attract others like them. In a very real sense this goes against the Biblical teaching of "living in the world but being not of the world." It's snowballing, friends. How many different churches of all denominations are celebrating 40 Days of Purpose? I read most of it and when it got to the Discipleship section I got antsy. I wrote to Saddleback and asked if Dr. Warren's philosophy on Discipleship was related to the Mumford/Prince Shepherding movement of the 1970's. I never did get a straight answer. So I prayed, opened my Bible and seached the "Net. What I found is that all these deviant trends tie back, with varying degrees of separation, to Fuller and C. Peter Wagner, Warren's mentor in Seminary and close personal friend to John Wimber who started Vineyard Fellowship, the main front church group espousing the New Apostolic Reformation. The bottom line is: Have your oil ready in your lamp, read your Bible, pray that God will assist you in your studies and exercise discernment as we're taught in 1 John 4. This false doctrine is not going away.

God bless!

[find_the_truth (find_the_truth)]

Please check out newapostolicchurch.org...Seems as if Mr. Wagner took a trip to Africa and saw what was happening in the New Apostolic Church , came home and started writing books about my church, which has already been established for generations. His Seminary is actually down the street from one of the congregations in Pasadena.

[seamaiden]

some new apostolic reformation teachings to listen to

http://www.eagles-landing.org/weekly.htm