Apostolic Faith Church or Mission Trinitarian hdqtrs Portland Oregon USA

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know anything about this church? Is it a cult? If so, what about it makes it a cult?

[Anonymous]

Well, I would call it the disappearing or shrinking church.

Does anyone know the name of that business principle that everything runs on a fifty-year cycle, and every fifty years, a business goes through a crisis; it either recovers and comes back better or it dissolves and is gone. What is the name of that??

I attended this church, in various states, for a little over fifty years, because it was all I knew, and looking into other religions and/or their literature was not just frowned upon, it was touted as sure to cause problems and perhaps loss of one's salvation. As a result, many there have no idea what is out there.

They teach that they are basically the only ones with the "whole gospel," that if one leaves, they are invariably going to a "lesser gospel." They teach that the children of those leaving will surely be lost, that there will be divorce, illness, and financial disaster. Great way to hold an audience.

They teach that the whole tithe should be given to the church and discourage charitable giving to others. They also teach that tithes should not be designated for a particular purpose. Their reasoning: they know who the Lord wants the money going to, we did not, and we should trust their contact with the Lord.

They teach that pastors (especially) and ministers have a better, straighter line to our God than do ordinary people, so the people should do what the pastors and ministers say without questioning. The pastors and ministers fully believe that whatever they imagine is a message from our God, that it is factual, and if the people disagree, dispute, or do not receive it, they are wrong.

They are KJV only. They call themselves Arminian, but they go far beyone anything Arminius ever dreamed. They believe in public demonstrations of public prayer for all the people at every service. They are a holiness group. They are also pentecostal but there are no public demonstrations of that as seen in other pentecostal or charismatic churches; they are a quiet group, as far as the services. They enjoy and can produce very fine music in some of their churches, often concentrating on the old masters (Bach, Mendelsohn, etc.) and the old hymns. Some new music has been integrated. The churches often have orchestras.

The people appear friendly but in reality are very cliquish. Peer pressure is an oft-used tool. They are a very proud people. Some of the churches are peopled by some wealthy people and lots of wannabes, leading to great debt, which does not seem preached agaist. The haves and the havenots do not seem to form real friendships -- merely passing ones. But this is likely ordinary in most churches.

Bottom line: people are leaving this church in droves. Reasons: what has been mentioned above as well as a refusal to listen to its people, very poor governing (translate that to complete lack of governing by the people; this is done for all the churches by a board of men in Portland, OR, who are out of touch with both reality and the people), lack of biblical integrity, no biblical education, lack of Bible study, and some doctrines and standards which are unaceptable by most.

Cult? You decide.

[Anonymous]

I cannot find a way to sign in here so that I have a byline. For now, call me JustDucky. The above post was written by me.

JustDucky

[JustDucky]

Does this work?

Okay. I get it now.

[Anonymous]

Can anyone help me out? I have information in that someone said they were molested by an Elder of the Apostolic Faith Church at 5601 SE Duke St., Portland Or.

When this person went to their Elders, they were told that this would not have occured and was shunned from the church. Has anyone out there had a similar experience?

Sincerely,

HELPMEOUT

[JustDucky]

This did happen and it has been happening for years. Anyone who tells that an elder in this church did anything that is unseemly gets crushed.

Yes, it happened to me in this church, although not in the worst of ways. I was never raped or anything close. However, I was kissed by a married pastor (I was a teen) and fondled by another who claimed he was making a point to me and refused to take responsibility for what he did.

It took me YEARS to tell, and when I did, I was anathema.

I also know of a minister in this church who exposed himself to his daughter. She was severely beaten for it.

[Anonymous]

is this the church that has an hour program on tv every sunday in my area. it is called apostalic faith.

[JustDucky]

No. In fact, this Apostolic Faith church has only allowed its members to have TVs for about 15 years. I am positive that at this time, it has no TV programs, but it does do radio programs. This one has about 50 churches in the States, a few in some other countries, and some very large churches in areas in Africa.

There are a number of churches called "Apostolic Faith." Some are oneness, some are Catholic, and very few, other than this one, are trinitarian protestant. It is also the only one wit headquarters in Portland.

[Anonymous]

If a person attends this particular church, do the church members try to separate family members from the attendee because I believe I am experiencing this now.

Sincerely,

HELPMEOUT

[JustDucky]

It does happen, but it is subtle, almost to the point that it is difficult for the victim to describe. I also do not think that most of the perpetrators recognize that this is what they are doing.

The church wants desperately to be each member's family. "You will notice we say brother And sister 'round here ; It's because we're a family. . . ." Most do not intend to divide families, but they do by making the church, activity within the church, and attendance so important that there is not time left for family. They did it to my parents, so my father was never home.

IAs an adult, moved to a place in order to get to know a beloved family member better, and I found that between attending church several times weekly, choir practice, and Sunday school teacher study, along with necessary being with my own young family, helping them with school work, my own education, housework, and sleeping, I had no time for this family member. I must say, however, to be fair, that I chose the church over my family member; no one there twisted my arm. Regardless, I had been taught by the church that this was the decision I had to make. I learned there that church was equal to our God, inseparable, and in order to make heaven, this was what I must do. Even then, I was taught that I would barely make it into heaven "by the skin of my teeth" -- their words.

Furthermore, they teach a high moral standard, even though it is not always lived by the leaders, and I have no problem with that standard; I still live by most of the moral standards learned there. However, there is a differtence between a high moral standard and naivette. They espouse naivette (or, at least, those teachers in my life did; this was not the case in my husband's family). As a result, I could never relate to my family member I mentioned. Of course, this further separated us.

When one of my children married, the pastor who married them plainly and distinctly told me, "Now stay out of their lives. Leave them alone." I did. I thought I had to.

The worst, though, was the man who was one of my children's own pastors there. He deliberately told them things in an attempt to turn them against me after I left that church. He has done the same thing to one of their other family members.

I tell you all this to say, "Yes. Yes. Yes. They do this."

I have read YOUR story somewhere before -- recently. Was it on CW? I looked for it and could not find it. Perhaps we need to talk.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, this is the first time I ever even mentioned this story so if there is another one that is out there, I have never ran across it. However, thank you for the information and be aware that there is a lot more to this but I must be off for now thus I shall be back sometime tomorrow and will continue relating some other important aspects that my husband and I have been through and witnessed.

Sincerely,

HELPMEOUT

[JustDucky]

Oh, my. I was hoping there was only one.

[JustDucky]

You know, I just read through my posts, and I must come back and say that there are many very fine people within this church, as well as many fine, frustrated leaders. I do not want to leave the impression that the whole is like this. The majority are fine people; it is that small percent that leaves a huge amount of distaste.

[Tabby]

Is apostolic the same as United Pentecostal churches??

[JustDucky]

No. Many of them have the name, Apostolic, but this one believes in the trinity; the United Pentecostal Church is "oneness," meaning they believe that our God, our Lord, and the Holy Spirit are all embodied in one, Jesus.

[JustDucky]

Since writing my responses to the above posts, I have wondered:
* How much information is necessary to pass on?
* When does warning become gossip?

I don't know the answers.

[Douglas]

If they did not hear you and deal with it to your satisfaction you have a right and possably an obligation to tell others.

[woodrow steadman]

i do not know the CHURCH you are speaking of. yes there are many abuses of all kinds in CHURCHES today.many times people prove they are not really CHRISTIAN but are wolfs in sheep clothing. they creep in while the CHURCH sleeps a lot of times but dont give up on the ones who are doing right. in order to have a conterfiet there has to be the genuine somewhere.
steadman

[Anonymous]

If a church believes in the trinity they are not a true apostolic church. I do not know much about the church you are speaking of but it sounds like to me that they are uses "THE APOSTOLIC NAME" and are very unrighteous people. Do a study on apostolic and you can research it all the way to the bible. Nothing was just created about apostolic faith. It is based on the apostles doctrine.

[Just Ducky]

Douglas, I have times of compassion for them and times or raw anger for what I went through there.

Woodrow, Funny you should mention wolves in sheep's clothing. I used to keep a wolf in sheep's clothing in my car -- a final representation of that place as I left it. :-D While I was attending there, I decorated my living room with birds and cats, because while there, I felt like a single bird in a small enclosure with lots of cats.

Anonymous, they say the same of oneness churches.

[woodrow steadman (68.119.47.6)]

to just ducky
i too have compassion for the one who are in the upc church as they are deceived. only the BLOOD OF JESUS can cleanse from sin not baptisim in water. we also do not teach that you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved. any one who beleives in and accepts JESUS as SAVIOR is saved

[albert (albert)]

i was in this church in Africa. Liberia to be specific. i also stay at the church's branch in Ghana for a while. I am surprise to hear some of this stuff that you guys say happen at the headquarter in Portland, Oragon. i currently live in Charlotte,NC. I must say that this church have a straight rules. I think it is good to be live by most of these rules. being baptized with the holy spirit is something all christain should strive for, but people should not be force to the point that they proclaim it falsely. I personal think this happen in the church sometimes. The church in africa have some outstandind leaders. The guy who took over after the pastor was accused of having an affair with one of the sunday school teacher was an example. I personally thing that we should not feel discourage about the action of some people within the church but pray for them and the church, and live for Christ not for men. We have the Bible, God's word to guide us. I still love the teachings of the Apostalic Faith Church.

[turtle (turtle)]

I have a question have any of you heard of Richard H. Hall _United Christian Church or AFMC= association of fundamental minister and churches?
I found out the united Christian church is said to be Jesus Only but pastor I sat under preached trinity. Very contolling minister and worked his people way to hard. It was not richard hall but someone licensed through him. If you have information about either group please help me. They sound similiar too you.
The AFMC church I am in doesn't sound like you but The UCC seems to hae inflitrated it. My husband and I heard interpetation of sheeps in wolves clothing in both churches.

[pat1945 (pat1945)]

My great grandmother was a friend of the founder-Florence Crawford and she was a faithful member of the church until she died in the 1940s. The church came out of the Azuza Street Revival in Los Angeles in the early 1900s and had many good things about it. Also, some rather strange things from an outsider's perspective. They believe in three works of Grace but do not consider themselves Pentecostal although they have often been classified with them. They were VERY strict about many things...many things have been loosened as far as beliefs in the years since I left. They had a choir and orchestra for every service and their music was superb for gospel music. From my understanding, Sister Crawford had been married a couple of times before her conversion. She (which I did not know until recently) was very much against marriage. And discouraged marriage by the members. They absolutely did not believe in remarriage unless the former spouse was dead. But Nazarene ministers in the 1960s would not marry a couple if they had been divorced. The Nazarene ministers could not be ordained for years if they had been divorced. That has changed in later years. If someone entered the church or in later years, married while a member of the Apostolic Faith church, they didn't exchange rings, instead, the bride received a pin or a watch denoting her married state. Clothing was very strict.

[pat1945 (pat1945)]

Even for girls as soon as they reached about 12 years of age. No shorts or pants. Dresses with no shorter than quarter sleeve length and necks were built up if they weren't high enough.
The ministers were only ordained when I went there if the elders felt they were called of God. No formal religious education. There was also no official church membership. You were a member if you were "Saved".
They were very active with street meetings, nursing home meetings, jail meetings and close to ports, they went out to the ships and invited crew members to the services and passed out tracts or papers. At that time they were printed on their own press which was rather crude and then prayed over. There were testimonies of many miracles from those papers and tracts and the teaching and story were simple. They also translated into a number of languages. Long before many other religions did. When I went there television was not allowed but radio was...although in earlier years I understand that was forbidden. Another thing they did long before other churches did it was to take buses and go out into the poorer sections and bring children to the church. Their Sunday School lesson book was similar to the present day English versions of the Bible but was exactly from the Bible.

[pat1945 (pat1945)]

Why did I leave? Not by choice although I never went back when I got older. My aunt got mad at the preacher and pulled me out of the church. When we left, similar to the Amish and other religions, we were not allowed to speak to any members of the church and they could not speak to us. Our family had been torn from me once again. I am not sure if it was my aunt or the church but we were not allowed to have much to do with my Dad because he was not "Saved". I am not sure how much of what happened to me was my aunt and the local pastor. I was or tried to be a good Christian so didn't go through many of the church meetings that some of the other kids my age went through or meetings in the Pastor's office where we were "called on the carpet" for some infraction. Others were taken in front of the whole congregation in the basement of the church which I never attended for some reason. One girl was taken several times to headquarters because something she had done wrong.

[pat1945 (pat1945)]

As far as the ministers and other workers and the double standard, there was to a degree a double standard but that is true in most churches. The finances were handled in this way as I understood it. There was never a collection plate passed around in a service but you put your tithe in the tithe box at the back of the sanctuary. The tithe was 10 per cent of your income as stated in Malachi. It was supposed to be anonymous but the pastors seemed to know who was paying what and I heard stories about a few people who were gently reminded that they were not paying their tithe. The tithe was then divided. 10 per cent from each church went to the headquarters in Portland. The rest was to cover the expenses of the local church including the pastor's salary. The only time I ever heard an additional call for money was to get the pastor a new car one time. The son of Florence Crawford took over after his mother's death and a lot of the stories I heard of happened then. It seems he had quite a good income which is understandable when you consider how much 10 per cent from a number of churches comes to. He had some luxuries that others wouldn't have had access to, in fact, my uncle was a janitor at a bank when his boss asked him one day years ago how he managed to belong to the church. According to the bank officer, the General Superintendent of the church was one of the richest men on Wall Street at that time. But then, look up some of the financial statements of some of the other ministers that are on TV today.

[just_ducky]

It is true that Florence Crawford was adamently against marriage. Many, who wanted to marry in the '40s and '50s were forced to "get saved" again after marrying. However, although I was a member there for 2.5 decades, I had never heard that she had more than one husband. Are you real sure of this? Pardon me for doubting you.

You mentioned marriage. This church will allow remarriage to the original spouse, and if they deem a first marriage not to be legitimate, according to their beliefs, they will allow a second marriage.

They have relaxed the women's dress codes very greatly. There was only one speaker I ever heard make an excellent and reasonable call for modesty at one of the camp meetings in the '90s, but many just wrote him off. It was the best teaching I have heard on modesty to this day.

[just_ducky]

Today, many of the people know how ridiculous it is to shun those who leave, although some still do it. I had the very unhappy experience of being invited to a restaurant with church members in Wisconsin, seeing some teens from a particular family walk in, inviting them to eat with us, and watching the table immediately clear, the people leaving a LOT of food on their plates. There I stood, an adult with my two preteens, completely nonplussed, not knowing what to say to these teens. It was horrible.

Ah! I remember "the carpet"! And I remember the people weeping behind the pastor's door. That ended to a point; however, when my daughter and her husband left, they got bellowed at. Big-time. They were also told that they did not have to pray about leaving, because their pastor could tell them the L-rd's will. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I know that Mr. Crawford had a lot of "big boy toys" (at least one yacht, at least one ship, at least one private plane, and a fleet of vehicles) but they did not belong to him: they belonged to the church. When Mr. Carver took over, they were sold and the money put back into the church, as I understood it.

Mr. Crawford did not receive the 10% from all the churches personally. He got a wage from the Portland church just as did all the other pastors. That money went toward supporting the international office, printing, some of the overseas ministries, and more.

[turtle]

Thank you Pat and ducky for information. One more question ever heard of AFMC Association of Fundamental Ministers and Churches? Are they apart of this richard Hall group. You seem to know much about them from your post. I appreciate it.

[just_ducky]

First, I was a member there for over 5 decades. I don't know where that 2.5 decades thing came from!

Turtle, no, the AFMC is not associated with the Apostolic Faith Church, nor is Richard Hall a part of them.

(Message edited by just_ducky on May 24, 2006)

[turtle]

Thank you for that information. Do you know much about them. Email if you want it off board at turtle30c@yahoo.com

[arron]

hey turtle miss hearing from you each day. i need you to remember our church in prayer. we need an immediate move of GOD for a particular thing . please pray.

[sarah]

Im not sure where to post this because I just joined.I wanted to ask a question.Ive heard of discerning spirits but what if your out of church and you see spirits or feel them.Is this the devil playing with someones mind?

[turtle]

The discerning spirits is knowing good from bad. Not so much spirits themselves necessarily. But i think there is a thread on this topic under doctrine/beliefs and proofs.

[california]

I belong to the Apostolic Faith Church ... unfortunately, all of our efforts seem to be overseas and the stateside churches are falling apart. We need to deal with a lot of issues ... from the administration to wedding bands to effective outreach and "inreach" programs.

[jobri]

Jaded by a SO CALLED AF Faith!

For over 20 years I was the wife of a pompous, controlling, narcissistic Apostolic Faith Husband. I struggled with trying to distinguish who was more of the latter, the church or my husband.
I should have known the first warning sign when I first was introduced into this classic Cult. I was told that I could not wear jewelry, make up or anything that resembled a pair of pants. When my ex proposed to me with a wrist watch I was perplexed, “can you believe it?”
I could go on and on, but my experience has been a long and arduous lesson. Let me give you 5 reasons as to why you should NOT join this self loathing so called church:

1. The pastors have no formal seminary training.
2. They believe that they are the greater church, and any other is the lesser church.
3. As a woman you CANT wear make up, only a long skirt with bloomers (that’s a joke).
4. You can NOT wear jewelry (wedding ring) only broaches, ask me I had hundreds, what else could I spent my money on?
5.No divorce or remarriage. Thank the Lord I moved on, for once I am not controlled.

[just_ducky]

Wow, Jobri! I thought I had been angry!!

I know what you mean about those "engagement watches." That was really ludicrous. Silly. I am sorry for what you went through and hope that it will soon be a mere memory that you can even laugh about.

By the way, did both you and your ex leave, or did he stay?

(Message edited by just_ducky on April 29, 2007)

[jobri]

Well Just Ducky,

It is kind of funny now that I can look back at it, as it has been over 10 years that I left the church, and 8 years since I left my ex. He no longer attends at all, and from what it looks like he is not even serving the Lord, but that is between him and God. I am closer to the Lord since I no longer feel judged, and feel that I can just be myself. I was so controlled in my marriage, and felt like a little child always having to get permission from my "Daddy", but really it was my husband... a bit confusing in the roles that we played. I would love to let other know that there are signs of the Cult, and it is when someone tries to change you, and you feel that you have to walk on egg shells to please not only your family, but God, and that is the hardest thing.
I have been freed from the bondage of "the Law, and it is by grace that I am saved not of myself lest I should boast.. you know the verse? I also almost memorized the King James Bible, as that is the only one we were allowed to have in the church.
Tell me more about your experience if you dont mind. I'm sure it is similar to mine.

[just_ducky]

Jobri,
We have SO likely crossed one another's paths. :-)

Unlike you (I am so sorry) I was very fortunate in my marriages in that I really married good AF men from good AF families. My first husband left the church but did not stand in my way of continuing, and there could not have been a better, sweeter, more fun man. He was killed in an accident in 1977, and his parents remain my friends, although there has always been major division between me and the rest of the family. That division is even greater, now that I have left their church.

My present husband was AF with me -- he for 54 years and I for 50-1/2. I was kicked out for telling the pastor I was no longer going to remove my wedding band to enter the church. I begged my husband not to leave, because if he ever did, I did not want it to be for me or influenced by me. Initially, I supported him by attending once a week with him, but eventually, that just got to be too much. About 1/2 a year later, he also left, and while the church taught that we would end up divorced, we're still together and will be celebrating our 20 anniversary in June.

Fortunately, I married men who were not in ministry (my father had been an AF minister, so I already knew better than entangling myself in that involveement), and neither were/are controlling.

You mentioned the signs of a cult. Here are some from the Apostolic Faith Mission archives on Wikipedia that may be of interest:
You May Need to Make Serious Reconsiderations About Your Choices If . . .
1. There are repetitive teachings that are not biblical and/or that go beyond the teachings of the Bible.
2. You are told that it is like a club, so it can make up its own rules for membership.
3. Extraordinary demands are placed upon you to measure up as a way to cover up the fact that you have been exploited.
4. Leaders keep saying there will be changes, but you never see them happen. You know -- that proverbial carrot on the stick that keeps you hopeful and coming back.
5. You are told to let go of or overlook the promises that have been broken and continue on in the organization.
6. You feel loyalty toward the organization, or persons in it, even though you carry secrets of their damage to yourself, a family member, or others.
7. You feel stuck there in spite of knowing about destructive behavior and/or teachings, but you believe you cannot do anything about it.
8. You keep someone's destructive behavior secret because of all the good things you hope they will do or because of the importance of their position or career.
9. Someone's talents or contributions cause you to overlook the exploitation.
10. Your own talents and contributions cause you to overlook the exploitation.
11. You cannot detach from the organization even though you do not trust or like it.
12. You find yourself obsessing about your relationship with the organization and those who represent it.
13. You hear that others on the outside are horrified by something that happened to you there, but you are not.
14. And finally, you look back with fondness upon the organization, and/or persons in it, who broke their promises and/or did acts you felt compelled to overlook.
How many of these are/were your reality? Was your trust betrayed? Raina 12:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[jobri]

Hi Just Ducky,

I think it is great that you married nice guys in the AF church. I too have married a very nice guy, and is a Christian as well. Things are great the 2nd time around, and I have been blessed by gods love for me as well as my husbands for me.
You and I may have crossed paths, as I will soon be 46, but that is neither here nor there.
Do you keep in touch with the people in the Church or is it umcomfortable? I find that it is uncomfortable, and I don't really talk with anyone, but that is mostly because I don't see them anymore. I would of course be kind to them, but they feel as though if you leave and go to a lesser light that you have backslid, and that is not fair to us. I am closer to the Lord than when I was in the Church. I definitely am freed from the chains of bondage.
You are right on the signs of Cults, as this is so similar to what I myself have experienced.
I remember being in the Church and the board members were talking about the rule of the Wedding Band was going to change through headquaters in Pot. Oregon, but that never did happen, and I am not sure if that has changed yet... do you know??
Churches are getting a bit more liberal, but God does not change, and he is the same yesterday today and forever.
All the best to you.

[just_ducky]

Oh, Jobri! Wish we could write privately. :-) I am so glad that your second marriage is working!!

As far as ages, I will be 58 next month. You would have been with a little bit younger crowd than I, likely, ten years ago when you were around. Also, we likely would have only seen one another at camp meetings. I was still attending them up to 1999, I think. I believe I wrote that I was booted in 2000, but it was 1999. Start the new century right! :-D

As far as being in touch with AFers, I have only one friend left who still attends there. She's a great woman, and although we have had one very rough incident, she remains a faithful friend. I have in-laws still in the church, but although I really love my parents-in-law, we hardly see one another, because I rarely get down there. I actually wish I could see them more. I saw several of my first husband's family members recently -- the younger ones -- and really enjoyed them.

HOWEVER! I don't go to their church. :-) The last time I was there, it was for a funeral, and it was pretty bad. I should probably tell you about it, because really, it was hilarious. I'll think about telling it. :-D

I know what you mean about finding a closer walk with the L-rd. It really makes a difference to walk away from that bondage. G-d has been So Good!

Re the wedding bands, no. Same ole stuff: they are still sinful. Or, at least, one cannot wear one and be a real AFer. A lot of their people are wearing them outside the church, as well as doing other things that church is unaware of.

How did you manage with their teaching regarding sin -- that they never sinned -- ever -- at any time -- for any reason -- period?

[jobri]

Hi Ducky,

I would love to keep in touch with you, and discuss things further. I would keep in touch with you if you could send me your email address, and I will respond. I actually left my ex in 1999, so that was the last time that I attended church there.

I hope to hear back from you soon, and I can explain more about the never sinning thing ; )
It gets so hard to live in that kind of teaching, and no one can for that matter, but Christ.
We than can reveal our true identities, but honestly I dont want to say so much here, as my ex has so many in his family that are still involved in some form or other.
Bye for now!

[jobri]

Thanks Ducky,

I got the adress, and sent you a test one back. I understand the security thing, as that Is why I did not want to send mine right away either.

[psjrules]

Hello,
I am a born and bred member of the Apostolic Faith Church in Nigeria, In fact my father was the overseer of the Apostolic Faith Churches in 3 states of the country.
I must state that many of the stories and ideas about the church has been very unfair and uncalled for.

1. We AFC members in Nigeria believe that most christians or churches stand on thesame doctrine the churches tradition might be different, depending on the calling of the founder. Hence, we do not see ourselves as the only righteous church. We are member of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN). If we feel we are the best why should we interact with other churches?

2. There is absolutely no church that is perfect. Every church seems to have a defect in one area or the other. While other churches stress that "Giving Money to the Lord" is the best service you can ever render to God, Apostolic Faith Churches preaches that winning more souls to the Lord side is the best service to Humanity. We do not have collection plate, but whatever you desire to give the lord and tithe should be between you and God. God rewards more that way than "Money display shows" we see in most churches. Church is not meant to be a business project.

3. There are talks about womens dressing. My mother dressing execellently well, very modest and expensive. Apostolic Faith church preaches that let your dressing be modest, and it must cover your nakedness. Hey, come to think of it, whats the point wearing a dress? is it not for that purpose of convering our nakedness? So? why would our modern generation ladies decide to go naked with extreme short skirts? is it not to lure men into sin of adultery and funication? Beware of the Devils aides in th church. Short skirts are allowed but it must be long enough to cover ur knees when u sit down.( I dont wanna be dropping my pen every now and then just to have a chance to peep at "That" spot, just kidding) Trousers are allowed for women but must not be too tight to the extent that the shape of the woman pubic area is soo obvious.

The motive behind modern day dressing should be examined before u crucify the church for frowning at some mode of dressing. THERE SHOULD BE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PROSTITUTE OR SHOW GIRL AND A CHRISTIAN.

Using makes up: it is wrong to assume that you are not allowed to use make up, but make use of it to make you look as natural as much as possible. We all know that human beings dont have a green lips, while should u paint ur lips green or blue or black? Faint red or pink is ok. Hair could be relaxed or pamed or plainted, but not coloured to green, yellow, or red or any absurd and unatural color. The truth is that it doesn't add to your beauty. There must be a difference between a Tom,Dick and Harry girls and a true christian.

The BIBLE tells us that Jesus dressed simply but expensively. Remember his cloths were shared among the Soldiers that captured him. Why are we called Christians? The disciples dressed just like Jesus, simply and modest, and thats why they call them Christ-like, known today as Christians. Even Jesus will frown at Half-naked dresses.

4. Mode of Prayer. Why would anyone say, they make public prayers? That is quite unfair. All christian believe that prayer is a one-on-one affair with God and you pray as if you are talking directly to God who is infront of you. You have the choice of silently speaking to God in your mind and you might want to talk to him loud. If you are disturbed by somebody praying out loud, there is always a prayer room designated for silent prayers.

[psjrules]

5. It is wrong for you to assume that the church separates you from your family. You are not forced to do anything within the church. it is free will. I know of several church members that do not have any service they render in church apart from coming to services. They weren't crucified for that. Do what you have to do, so as not to affect your family or relationship with God. Love within the family is strongly encouraged. There is a time when u can even be stopped from church activities in cases of students getting close to their finals, newly married couples, expectant pregnant women and their husbands etc just to ensure that you give honor to whom its due. I do not participate in any church activities... ANY, and yet everybody relates well with me, My father has never asked me for once why? Its between me and God. Apostolic Faith Church may look rigid in some things but it is very liberal, the church allows you to make your own personal definition of your relationship with God.

6. Talking about some bad elements among the Elders and Ministers. That is bound to happen, even our Lord Jesus recruited a traitor and a bad egg in the person of Judas. He even gave him a position, as a treasurer, the only position among the disciples then. But the bad leader or elder is identified he gets booted out. I have seen 2 or 3 pastors getting the boot under my father's administration.

7. Even though jewelries are not allowed (Another way of allowing natural beauty to prevail over anything artificial)The use of Wedding rings is allowed if you choose to wear it or use it. When my elder brother got married he used a wedding ring and he still wears, he is a member of the Choir and Ochestra. I see members with wedding rings. You must also know that you will not be forced to stop using the jewelries. Its between you and God.

8. Talking about theological schools. Apostolic Faith do not have Theological school, every member is thought the word of God from the Sunday school book and during the mid week bible studies. Everybody is groomed to be able to preach and win souls to the Lords Side. Did Jesus send his disciples to school before they could preach and perform miracles? The Answer is capital NO. He taught them thesame time he taught the multitude. However, Apostolic Faith invest in the educational sector, for instance we have the Crawfor University in Nigeria (One of the top rated Universities in Nigeria), and several secondary and high schools in several states. Christian religious knowledge is a compulsory course. Many students have been saved through this schools, and many of these saved students continued in the churches they belong too. This also proves that Apostolica Faith do not see themselves as the most righteous and only its members will go to heaven.

9. Do not judge any man, neither should you judge any church, you are free to attend any church that makes you feel closer to God. If you are not comfortable with one or two of the church traditions, do it your own way or move on, other Apostolic Faith Members will never see you as a sinner, they will relate well with you, and if u invite them for your a social function you will be amazed at the turn out.

for more information about the church visit http://www.apostolicfaith.org

[psjrules]

Find below is the Apostolic Faith Church Doctrine as preached and believed with Bible verses supporting each claim. You can see nothing is said about Dressing and so many other bad things raised in previous posts. Why? Because Apostolic Faith Church believe that those things are not the determining factor to your making heaven.

Bible Doctrines


We believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible, and endorse all the teachings contained in it. Following is a summary of the basic teachings of our faith. Click on the titles for more depth on each subject.


THE DIVINE TRINITY consists of three Persons: God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost, perfectly united as one. Matthew 3:16-17; 1 John 5:7.

REPENTANCE is a godly sorrow for sin with a renunciation of sin. Isaiah 55:7; Matthew 4:17.

SALVATION is the act of God’s grace whereby we receive forgiveness for sins and stand before God as though we had never sinned. Romans 5:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17.

SANCTIFICATION or Holiness, the act of God’s grace whereby we are made holy, is the second definite work and is subsequent to justification. John 17:15-21; Hebrews 13:12.

THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST is the enduement of power from on high upon the clean, sanctified life, and is evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. Luke 24:49; Acts 1:5-8; 2:1-4.

DIVINE HEALING of sickness is provided through the atonement. James 5:14-16; 1 Peter 2:24.

THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS will be just as literal and visible as His going away. Acts 1:9-11. There will be two appearances under one coming: First, to catch away His waiting Bride. Matthew 24:40-44; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; second, to execute judgment upon the ungodly. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Jude 14-15.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION will occur between Christ’s coming for His Bride and His return in judgment. Isaiah 26:20-21; Revelation 9 and 16.

CHRIST’S MILLENNIAL REIGN is the literal 1000 years of peaceful reign by Jesus on earth. Isaiah 11 and 35.

THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT is the final judgment when all the wicked dead will stand before God. Revelation 20:11-15.

THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH will replace the present heaven and earth, which will be destroyed after the Great White Throne Judgment. 2 Peter 3:12-13; Revelation 21:1-3.

ETERNAL HEAVEN AND ETERNAL HELL are literal places of final destiny, each as eternal as the other. Matthew 25:41-46; Luke 16:22-28.

MARRIAGE IS FOR LIFE, a holy institution that is binding before God, giving neither partner liberty to marry again as long as the first companion lives. Mark 10:6-12; Romans 7:1-3.

RESTITUTION is subsequent to salvation, wherein wrongs against our fellowmen are made right in order to have a clear conscience before God and man. Ezekiel 33:15; Matthew 5:23-24.

WATER BAPTISM is by one immersion "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," as Jesus commanded. Matthew 3:16; 28:19.

THE LORD’S SUPPER is an institution ordained by Jesus so that we might remember His death until He returns. Matthew 26:26-29; 1 Corinthians 11:23,26.

WASHING THE DISCIPLES’ FEET is practiced according to the example and commandment Jesus gave. John 13:14-15.

[discerner]

I have to agree with past members on this forum that when you leave the AFC due to disagreement in their traditions and errors, you will be counted as a lost and rebellious soul. Family members will choose "the church" over family,( I’ve experienced it, the phone rings no more) failing to remember that the church is made up of individual believers and not some man made organization that has no biblical foundation especially that Mrs. Crawford usurped authority over man (1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.)
This proves that this organization and countless others are in total disobedience to God's word. Many try to justify that it is okay but fail to remember "as thus saith the Lord".

As for dress and rings....the Superintendent (another un-biblical name) wrote letters to AFC churches concerning these matters omitting any scriptural reference but using his own threatening words "if anyone wears a ring, capped sleeved shirts, they will not be used in the church."
Since when did man have authority that a born-again believer is not allowed to manifest their talents or gifts? God have mercy on them!

Their favorite quote is "Obey them which have the rule over you." The word rule from the Greek is "to lead", but I'm afraid that they have used that word as “to drive” the people. I’m sure that many others will agree that we were told by others” not to say anything.” They don’t like opposition or rebuke; they will tell you that you are being carnal. Was Paul being carnal when he rebuked Peter? I’m sure that Peter was later glad that he was rebuked, it was for his own good. (1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.) Oh yeah and they also tell you that there is no "no's" in the gospel (their gospel I assume.) True that there is no perfect “church”, but those are the ones that consist of man-made organizations. The church which is the body of Christ has no error in it, it is flawless. If there was error in the church, the body of Christ, then the head would be sick, Jesus Christ is the head.
Traditions are taught as doctrines of men, just as the rebuke from Christ in Matthew 23 towards the Pharisees. They say that these are traditions of days gone by, yet not understanding that it was Jewish traditions spoken of. Men never wore pants in the times of Christ, they wore robes. If this is the case then we are transgressing the commandments of God by men wearing pants…again defunct of proper discernment. Who cannot forget one of the best parables in the bible about the prodigal son spoken by none other than the creator of all things, Jesus Christ? Remember it was Jesus who mentioned about the father putting a ring on the sons finger…if the ring is such an issue with God do you think we would have mentioned its “evil” use? God is going to reward men according to their error and misleading of “his heritage.” Woe to the shepherds that scatter the sheep.

[discerner]

As for going to other churches, they tell you that they have the “light” and others have a lesser light….give me a break! What pride and ignorance that is. Where does it say in the bible that an organization will have a greater light. The bible tells me that Jesus is the light, not some organization whose name is nowhere near to be found in any translation of a bible. It pretty well has been said to me after I left that I would be lost without going to the AFC….. “oh we have the greatest thing in the world that others are looking for.”
What the world needs is Jesus and his atoning blood and not religion. An “apostolic” would never be encouraged to attend another church outside of their own denomination; it is a fact over here in North America.


It's been heard by pastors that they are not allowed to street evangelize contrary to what Jesus said" Go ye into all the world and teach all nations..."
The pastors definitely lack spiritual understanding and biblical knowledge, and are greatly out of touch with the people.
The majority of knowledge and understanding that I have received (through the Holy Spirit) was not in the AFC, but through other sources when I was supposed to be fed at my local church, but due to "thinking outside the box", God showed to me the many errors in the AFC and I am so thankful that He has given me that discernment.

I'm afraid that the spirit of God does not brightly shine there because of pride, arrogance and unrepented sins against the people of God, and so many issues that have been "swept" under the carpet. They will never admit that they have done any wrong to the people. The AFC will remain as an “organization” but it is in stages of apostasy.

This just proves that men are in control of the AFC and that the Holy Spirit is put aside.
I know where I am coming from because I am a victim of spiritual abuse in the AFC, and a former member never to return now that I have found true freedom and liberty in Christ, no longer under the bondage of men.

Another thing that the AFC is guilty of is being married to Caesar by the 501(c) 3 Incorporation in which the IRS has strangleholds on faith-based organizations concerning charities. Dare not speak out on decisive issues such as abortion or government corruption, if caught, they will loose their tax exemption status and no one will longer receive a tax receipt (which is why the majority of parishioners pay tithes, and tithing was never commanded in the NT writings….another error.) Christ is not pleased when he is no longer the head of the church but the government is thus the AFC has forfeited it's right as being a New testament church, this is not the pattern that the Apostles taught. Check out the guidelines at the IRS website…..I have and it looks like apostasy to me.

[discerner]

My hope and sincere prayer is that more brethren in the AFC will step out from the fear and bondage of men, and not worry about intimidation, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

(Isa 56:10) His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
(11) Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

(Rev 18:4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

I have done extensive research concerning the AFC, it's beginnings, it's fallout with W.J. Seymour at Azusa Street (Crawford never did get the blessing from Mr. Seymour concerning the “stolen” mailing list), other hurt brethren, and agonizing prayer. My homework is completed and I would suggest others to start "reading" their bibles and be as the Bereans, " ...in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. " (Acts 17:11) Are you a berean or are you "Apostolic"? I'm as a berean.

[discerner]

The Catholic Archbishop of Abuja, His Grace, Most Rev. Dr. John Onaiyekan, penultimate Tuesday June 19, emerged as the new president of the Christian Association of Nigeria http://www.abujacatholics.org/

from PSJRULES first post> 1. We AFC members in Nigeria believe that most christians or churches stand on thesame doctrine the churches tradition might be different, depending on the calling of the founder. Hence, we do not see ourselves as the only righteous church. We are member of the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN). If we feel we are the best why should we interact with other churches?

According to the information gathered in the post and website it sounds like the AFC in Nigeria is part of the ecumenical movement. The Ecumenical movement is a push towards a "one world religion" led by Rome......be careful

[psjrules]

Hun....
I really dont know what to make of all this stories i am hearing about my church... AFC.
What i can rightly conclude from all this is that The Apostolic Faith Churches in The United States of America, canada and environs practice differently from what is practiced in Africa. Its totally different.

Christian Association of Nigeria is simply a body to protect the interest of All nigerian christians knowing fully well NIgeria is a country with more muslims fanatics that christian faithfuls. Past presidents of the association has emerged from Anglicans, Baptist and Pentecostal. Now having a Catholic Bishop has the president doesn't signify anything from Rome. I have never seen anything in their activities that proves otherwise. But then if Ecumenical Movement push towards "One World Religion" so far its Christian Religion its OK by me. Eventually its gonna result in One World Religion During Christ Millenial Reign.

For the interest of all, the Africa Superintendent residing in Nigeria, has contributed in no small measure to the political setup in Nigeria. Like a i said soo many issues discussed above DOES NOT exist within the Africa Contest.

2. The Apostolic Faith Churches in Africa was founded by Timothy Gbadebo Oshokoya, a Nigerian who met the Lord on a personal devotion with God. He founded a praying group and later on received some inspirational materials from Apostolic Faith Church. He later decided to name he group after the church. Probably that explains some differences in our mode of operations.... I am waiting to read more from you guys.

[young]

Are there new changes to AFC doctrines as regards to christains that are not members of AFC marrying children of AFC members?

[young]

Hello psjrules. I have some questions about AFC. First of all I am happy you reside in Africa and in Nigeria. My question is why is that AFC opposes men marrying daughters of AFC members or vice versa? I heard from my friends that if the parents of the lady or the man are workers in AFC, they would be demoted or expelled from the Church. Why is this so? Because as you know in Nigeria apart from AFC there are a number of churches that practice Christ's true teachings and there are sincere brothers or sisters who love the Lord with all their hearts and love his/her neighbor as themselves but are not members of AFC and intend to marry daughters or sons of AFC members.