World Breakthrough Network Elijah Centre Elijah Ministries International Noel Woodroffe

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Is anyone familiar with World Breakthrough Network, an apostolic organization founded by Noel Woodruffe? Woodruffe is also senior pastor at The Elijah Centre, a church in Trinidad. I have heard several sermons at my former church given by a visiting apostle who is affiliated with this network, and his sermons were very fringe and bordered on, possibly were, heresy. Their website also contains some alarming stuff, in particular on the section about their leadership structure. Here is the website:

http://www.wbnetwork.org/

[Anonymous (4.10.172.236)]

Just bumping this thread up, hoping to keep it near the top, in case anyone has heard of WBN.

Thanks.

[Anonymous (193.5.216.124)]

You can go here:
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1259.html?1091050177

[t brown (82.33.18.94)]

Yeah, i'm in a church that's recently connected with WBN or Congress WBN as they're changing their name to... i'm in the process of challenging them (via my church leader) as I've been finding various things that don't seem quite right.

Their arrogance as apostles
Their self centered teaching
Their teaching that paul would say is there to "tickle our ears" (II Timothy). Their teaching on "The Elijah Dimention" is a new concept that glorifies us by moving us to a "higher spiritual place" such that we can "conquer over the rules of this physical place", i'm feeling my ears being tickled!!!!

They don't seem to have any evangelistic focus, their aim seems to be to spread WBN across the globe, not the gospel.

It's suspicious ground, i've not made a decision on whether i'm sticking with my church, but it's not looking hopeful. I'd warn anyone who's looking like they're going to be involved with this network to weigh up EVERYTHING they hear, and check it with the ultimate plumb line... The Bible.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Do you know the details on the name change from World Breakthrough Network to Congress World Breakthrough Network? -- Why they are changing it, the significance, etc?

This quote: "Their aim seems to be to spread WBN across the globe, not the gospel" is so true. Sad, but true.

[Mondie Daniel (196.201.128.141)]

You Need to be in accurete Diamension with god to Understand the Apstolic Reformation of Congrees WBN. Get Closser For the Truth

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

That is very typical of the WBN's convoluted speech and condescension. It implies that the members of WBN are on a higher dimension or plane than the rest of us who poor people who are apparently not able to discern from our lower dimensions. This is very elitist and prideful.

[Daniel Mondie (81.199.76.180)]

People needs to understand that Knowledge counts in Knowing the position of God. Knowing God depends on your ability to accend spiritually and accurately doing what he wants us to do and to avoid the avoidables. That is the angle you need to be to understand congress WBN. I still advice the onlookers to get involve for the present truth

[samantha.O (80.179.104.186)]

The Congress WBN, is not an elitist group of people who feel they are better than others. They are basically a group of churches and people who have realised that Christians must get real.Christianity is not ONLY about GOd meeting your needs and blessing you and protecting you but also coming to be like Christ.The whole essence of Christ death and ressurrection was to elevate us back to our position in God before the Fall of Man.Man did not fall from not having money or cars or breakthroughs but from not being able to reach God in the way we ought to.CWBN is just trying to tell the body of christ that there is more in God than material things.Jesus Christ said greater things shall we do ,with our present focus on ourselves and material things i dont think we will be able to achieve that,if we dont look beyond these things.CWBN is a medium that is being used to spread the gospel if you think there is undue emphasis it is because it is presently expanding and people need to understand the way it operates.CWBN is a group of churches worldwide that intend to form a formidable force of people who want to do the will of GOD in every continent.I think it is commendable that churches are now looking beyond themselves and recognising that we are one and can and should work together as one voice.Remember one can put to flight a thousand two ten thousand.Finally,i encourage you to visit the web site as suggested and make up your own mind for your self.

[samantha.O (80.179.104.186)]

I forgot to add that the word apostole means the "sent",There are the apostles of the Lamb (The twelve) that no person can lay claim to, but there is also the office as provided for in ephesians 4:12 which is as relevant today as the other offices of the pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet.No office is superior to the other it is all a matter of function.Did Jesus NOT overcome the Laws of gravity by walking on water?Did Jesus not calm Storms?He was not limited to the PHysical laws and neither should we be.The BIBLe says he is the First among many Brothers, he came to show us the way and to set an example for us,he assured us that greater things shall we do and my brother i tell you we will never be able to operate and be like him if we dont arise from complacency and move to a "higher spiritual place" by getting closer to him. That im sorry to say is the Raw reality,He is coming for a church without spot wrinkle or blemish, people sold out to him ,You can never be sold out if you dont reach for more of GOD.Like every thing in life there is a time and a season.A time to be a child and a Time to be An Adult.Children Do Child Like things and Adults move on to do more mature things.The Call to Go to A Higher Spiritual Place Is Not Just for People in CWBN but i think That is what GOD would want for every man or woman who says he or she is a Christian.I dont think there is anything ticklish about that.Remember the world is waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of GOd and im doubtful if complacent Christianity can achieve that.
Can You even begin to imagine the Evangelistic force a body of believers would have if the operated together.not as individuals but one people with one agenda Gods? Expolsive!!!
I am truly grateful to God for what he is starting to do in the Body of Christ.I THink This is the Beginining of the Golden Era for the Church. I tell you it is terribly exciting!!!!

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Samantha-

I have had personal experiences with and have personally heard numerous sermons by an "apostle" who is in the high up in the leadership hierarchy of World Breakthrough Network. The simple gosbep of reaching the lost for Jesus was not even mentioned in any of his sermons. They were all - everyone - about "invading" the current church to reform the thoughts and mentalities of the church and to achieve "kingdom dominion". His sermons were very condescending to all present church structure, in particular what he refers to as the "Americanized" church. He made it very plain that he and his network believe that they have the only true pattern for the church, and that any other pattern was inferior and even unbiblical, and that other churches needed new "technology downloaded" into their minds to see "present truths". If that does not met the definition of elitist, what does?

He also has been very condescending to women and borderline crude at times, at one point even stating that men would be more of who God wants them to be if there wives would just be more supportive and buy lingerie to keep them from straying from home and becoming distracted by others.

Also, I have read the WBN website. There are many red flags that go up, including some of their "mandates" and leadership structure and their wide corporate scope which seeks to gather money for when the "Babylon system" falls. Also, by their own words, they are influenced by the Latter Rain movement, which in and of itself is alarming.

I still say that this network organization is
dangerous.

[rome (167.1.119.100)]

Dear anonymous,
Though Iam an Indian residing in the other part of the globe I feel CWBN is on the right track setting an example for the entire church by boldly establishing the blueprint of God's tabernacle here on planet earth-a pattern which is after God's own heart.Lost people are not only in the world outside it is found right within the church.Just because you are saved doesn't mean you are completely saved,we still have the soul still creating a mess in the Body of Christ.By what i understand, salvation is a process in which we continuously worked it out .
Our mindsets needs to be aligned with God's present purposes on earth.

[Nicholas (212.165.151.133)]

don't let ignorance, pride and sentiment blind u from seeing what God is crafting in the earth. do u really think even the way u have church now is the way it has always been? u should first seek the spirit of God to give understanding, dont make the mistake of judging by the flesh cos that is why the jews missed the coming of christ. study the history of the church and see how it has evolved and how God has restored truth to it at diferent times. the network isnt negating what God has done in the past but declaring the present emphasis of the spirit of God to the church. the structure of the body of christ in ist present state does not have the ability and capacity take believers and ultimately humanity to accomplish the true essence of the great commission and intention of God since the fall.the network is declaring to the body of christ the next level for it and not excluding itself from the body. dont think buy listening to one message u can get what the network is all about. have the spirit of a child christ talk about so that u can recieve this engrafted word of truth that has the ability to save ur soul (ensure ur salvation).

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Nicholas -

I know my convictions regarding WBN; I believe it has some serious doctrinal and leadership issues. That is not out of ignorance, pride, or sentiment to hold those convictions, nor do my convictions come from simply listening to just "one message" as you wrote. I have heard quite a number of messages and had personal experience with one of the WBN leaders, and I have studied the WBN website. Those things all led me to have serious concerns about the WBN's doctrine, teachings, and leadership structure. I truly believe my concerns are based on God-given discernment, as do the majority of people who heard these same messages and had experiences with the WBN leader and studied the WBN website and articles.

How prideful of YOU, though, to assume that just because someone disagrees with you about WBN that means that person is ignorant and - much worse - that person is unsaved. I do not need my salvation to be ensured, as I accepted Christ as my savior many years ago and love Him very much. My disagreement with the teachings and leadership structure of the WBN does not put my salvation in jeopardy.

You wrote: "the network is declaring to the body of christ the next level for it and not excluding itself from the body. dont think buy listening to one message u can get what the network is all about. have the spirit of a child christ talk about so that u can recieve this engrafted word of truth that has the ability to save ur soul (ensure ur salvation)."

Does that mean that you believe that to have one's salvation ensured, one must believe in this new "engrafted", "next-level" truth? In my Bible, only one level - that of believing and receiving the Lord Jesus as Savior and Lord - ensures salvation.

What exactly is this "next-level" truth you wrote about? It sounds very much like it is adding to the Scriptures, which is a BIG no-no.

[CULTBUSTER (64.12.117.20)]

I read God, God, God in all of this. But I don't read a word mentioning Jesus. Why is that? Are these so called "apostles" so high in God's favor that they've made an end run around Jesus and are instructed by God directly and not through the Holy Spirit. Whatever happened to Jesus?
A sure sign of a cult is no mention of Jesus. When you have an "Apostle" lording over you, who needs Jesus? These people will be shocked when they find out that these false prophets can't even get themselves into heaven much less their cult members. A church without Jesus is a C U L T.

[My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20)]

Duh...Jesus is God.

By the way, on another thread, when you were raining down your judgment on Congress-WBN with the use of duck analogy and metaphor, you climaxed with 'By God, it is a cult'.

Were you doing an end run around Jesus in that judgment? Shouldn't you have said, 'By Jesus, it is a cult?"

Are you a cult?

[Anonymous (193.5.216.124)]

Cultbuster is not speaking about just one sentance or two. but about all their doctrine. I have hear quite a few messages from them and i have never heared about Jesus-Christ, it's look really like you're gonna go to heaven through wbn and not through your faith in Jesus-Christ.

In their teachings they lead you away from your relationship with God, and little by little you have no more intimacy with your Savior, you're no more able to hear from the Holy-Spirit and then they can teach you whatever they want, you loose your sense of discernement. It's a little harsh how I tell it, but somehow it's working like that.


Find Jesus-Christ, find a true relationship with Him, read the Word of God, find some brethren who preach Christ and Him crucified and go forward in your daily life whith Him. Don't waste your time with these so-called apostles and prophets to finally find that you have been deceived.
It's right that the Christianity of today is not perfect, but don't leave it to find something worst. Go back to the root, to the Bible, read about our faithfathers.

Because of His mercy,
Raphael

[My Church Is A Cult (198.81.26.106)]

Raphael,

I am not sure what 'messages' you have heard, but when you say that their teachings lead you away form relationship with God, what teachings are these? Could you give me some specific examples of teachings that you have heard that tried to 'lead you away from your relationship with God'?

Cultbuster says that he reads 'God, God, God in all of this.' How can Cultbuster hear nothing but God, God, God in all of their teachings, but you feel their teachings lead one away from God.

The absolute continual focus of Congress WBN and its teachings are that we become conformed to the character of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I quote from their website regarding their core values and faith foundations:

"The end of the journey is the Church achieving perfection, being conformed to the character of Christ; the personal return of Christ and the attaining of immortality."

That is nothing but Ephesians 4.13-16 and Hebrews 6.1-2 put into today's language. The end or goal of the Church and its believers is the achieving of perfection (telios) and being conformed to the character of Christ, which will take us to the Second Coming at which time this mortal body will put on immortality, for we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15).

Sorry, nothing our Lord in all of this. You are mistaken, mis-informed, or intentionally trying to mislead. I trust it is one of the former two.

[Bubble Burster (172.134.223.136)]

The wbn and their phony apostles proclamations reads like the communist manisfesto. They just substitute God for "the state". Read between the lines and the message is revolution. Not spiritual, but political.
These rastafarians must be smoking too much ganja to come up with that crap.
The end of the journey is not the church but the individual. Trying to acheive a church reaching perfection is like trying to nail jelly to a wall. Like trying to herd cats. Ain't gonna happen. No matter how much ganja you smoke.
We are responsible to God as individuals for our souls. A man will never reach perfection in a lifetime. That is why we need a savior. If we could, like Buddhists think they can, we would not need Jesus. These bodies will not take on immortality, but through Christ our souls can. Put down the bong, listen to the Holy Spirit and stop listening to this island pseudo Christianity. This is way out of balance. This is a cult.
Work on your own relationship with God. Forget about being a drone for these charlatans. If everyone involved stopped sending these kooks money, they would go back to fishing and growing ganga. Carribean religions are as wierd as their politics. Your right. Your church is a cult. Get a life. Find Christ.

[My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20)]

Haven't sent them a dime

Ephesians 4 clearly defines the goal of the journey not as simply individualistic Christianity, but 'until we all'

The Holy Spirit is wanting to do His job, to bring the Church to a place of being 'without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing'

The Bible clearly says that 'this perishable must put on imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.' (1 Corinthians 15.43)

Please take a basic Bible College class to learn about these things. Jesus' own body, scars and piercings and all was the same body that was resurrected.

"Through Christ our SOULS can take on immortality"?? Huh?

That is a heresy that was dealt with in the 4th and 5th centuries. Our souls don't become immortal, they already are!

You are revealing your racist perspective when you say that these Carribean religions are as wierd as their politics.

The greatest majority of all true cults come from the United States, not the Carribean.

While you are taking Theology 101, please take Church History 101 as well.

[Cult Buster (152.163.101.12)]

If you do know Christ as your Lord and Savior then you will have everlasting life. Those who do not, will perish in hell. 1 Cor. speaks of the spirit, not of the body. You've watched too many Highlander reruns.

Duh?! We are not Christ. These bodies will perish. Turn to dust. But our spirits live on.

Racist? What are you talking about? Do you believe the rastafarian beliefs? Do you worship King Haile Selasie? That's wierd. Has nothing to do with race.

I am not responsible for the soul of someone in my church. I will try to bring them to the Lord. But God will not judge me for your sins and blasphemy.

You are talking about perfection which is insanity! Man can not be perfect in this life. A church can not be perfect in this life. We can try. But will never acheive perfection. That is why this cult is insane.

So why don't you choose a cult in the United States to be a stooge in, instead of the Caribbean. Are YOU a racist? You are a man worshipper.

Cults suck. They suck the life blood of your spirit. I have enough trouble working on my own perfection without trying to be part of some group perfection.

My suggestion to you is to take Common Sense 101, then Sanity 101. Then read some Ayn Rand books. Learn about individuality. It will free your spirit from the ol' communist group think.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that these bodies will be immortal. You are scary!

[Anonymous (83.77.77.132)]

To My church is a cult,

Quote : "The Bible clearly says that 'this perishable must put on imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.' (1 Corinthians 15.43) "
I don't know what you want to say with this verse. This verse refer to the resurection of the deads when Jesus gonna come to bring us with Him in heavens. It's not refering with our body becoming immortal here on earth when we are living. But I don't know what you were wanting to say.

I agree that we have to pursue perfection, we have to live holy lifes, we have to have pure heart. But not by our strenght, not by our power, not by our doctrines, not in hearing thousands of sermons, not because we are under the covering of an apostle, not because of our knowledge. But because of Christ, because of His grace, because of His perfect work in us as we lay down our lifes, as we deny ourselve, as we surrender to Him and Him alone. By the power of the Holy-Spirit. As we live in communion with our Savior Jesus-Christ, abiding in Him.

And yes it is a problem in modern christianity, we preach no more holiness but worldiness, no more purity but money, etc...

Quote : "I am not sure what 'messages' you have heard, but when you say that their teachings lead you away form relationship with God, what teachings are these? Could you give me some specific examples of teachings that you have heard that tried to 'lead you away from your relationship with God'? "

-We heard that we were not living the worship in the right way, so no more worship time, period! The time of worship is a time of communion with God, is a time where we can live a relationship alltogether with God, where He can speak to our hearts, directly and through prophetic words. But no more, we are not living it rightly....

-No more prayer time in our services, we heard that we were not living a prayer life who was right. Actually in the sermons they break down everything that a christian live, like if we were all religious, half-dead, hypocrites, double-minded, etc... ok, that was right for some of our brethren, like in any churches, but some of us were living a deep and right relationship with Jesus.

- To not point to everything I can just say that in substance they said : "We have to forget everything that we have learned, and be teached again everything in a new way." For me that mean denying Christ, denying all that he has done in me and for me. This approach is heretical for me. God is not a God who bury dead-churches to start news, He is a God who raise from the dead this dead-chruches.

So all this things together bring a lot of confusion in the heart of the believers, do you understand? You have to forget your prayerlife, you have to forget worship, you have to forget the exercice of the gifts of the holy-spirit, you have to forget everything and wait that they teach you new things.... that means that in the place to live something intimate with Christ you live something like that : "you go to the church, you just hear hours and hours of sermons who for the most part mean absolutly nothing, and you go back home. And then at home in the place of going to Christ to find rest peace love and the light who show you the way, you are trying to understand what they you have heard before, full of confusion, unable to pray. And little by little you are dead, no more life in Christ, no more abiding in Him. And little by little you are accepting what they are teaching cause you are no more able to think by yourself.

Of course, that's my personnal experience, in my church, and perhaps it's not like that everywhere. But through what I have read on this website, I can see that there is a problem everywhere... so sad.

To finish for me the thing that is the worst :
I heard that it's the leadership (Apostles and prophets) who can receive the revelations, and only them. The christian has just to accept what they are saying. Their are finally building a new catholic church... :-(

Certainly you are not going to agree with what I have write, perhaps sometime I have not express myself correctly (english is not my motherlanguage) but I have tried to explain myself the better I was able to do.

Raphael

[Anonymous (172.155.121.111)]

You did a great job, Raphael. You came through loud and clear. This is a brainwashing, satanic cult. Stay away!

[Anonymous (4.10.172.241)]

Raphael,

You did a very good job on your post. Some of your points are very similar to what I heard in the sermons by a WBN apostle when he frequently visited my former church, in attempts to get the church to join his apostolic network, which is within the WBN itself.

The sermons were largely the same content, over and over: We must turn away from and forget all the we've ever known about the church. We must embrace the "new and present truths" and replace all we have ever known with them. The present truths mainly focused on taking dominion over the earth, invading all the present churches and advancing the kingdom with the new "technology". The real catch was, I and others always wondered - to what end? What were we taking dominion for? It was all very focused on the network, bringing people under the apostolic mantle of the network. There is no true and valid anointing and mandate except within the network. Thus, everthing was focused on the network, and by virtue of that, the founding apostle, who according to the WBN website gives the entire network its grace through HIS apostolic mantle.

Nobody needs to go through another person's mantle or grace. That is what Jesus is for. He is the only one whose grace we need to go through for our salvation and relationship with God. That is one of the main teachings that is so disturbing about this network. It reminds me of the Catholic beliefs of a church member going THROUGH the priest for confession and relationship with God.

Another disturbing thing is their elitist doctrine. Anytime a network, denomination or church claims that they have the only way or only new and present truth, that is a clear sign of danger.

The network is very hierarchical in leadership structure. In fact, it is pyramidic, with the founding apostle at the top and other leaders on descending lower levels. In the website and through the messages and personal experiences I've had with the apostle, it is very authoritarian. You do not question the leader, you do not raise concerns or doubts. You are not allowed to voice and hold differing convictions, or you are rebuked or silenced.

One other thing I will mention - the apostle from the WBN network who preached at our church in attempts to "recruit" it - displayed some very ungodly characteristics. He made references from the pulpit that bordered on being lewd. He also wanted to keep our pastor in leadership even after he was involved in several illegal and immoral activities and refused to repent. Apparently, once a leader, always a leader, despite what that leader may be doing that is wrong.

Indeed, this network is troubled and errant.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

It's a dangerous cult!

[Walter (64.39.144.184)]

I just went to an "Apostolic Reformation Seminar" sponsored by WBN. I admit I was challenged by many of the things I heard, and I will take it to the Scriptures to "see if these things be so." However, I am very excited because today and yesterday I heard many things which challenged me and I have not been challenged in this way in many years. I think many of us (me and many of the Christians I know) feel that the systems in place in current church structures are not working and that is why we are feeling frustrated. Why not at least examine these things? I am not jumping in right now but all one has to do is look around at the horrible things that are going on in so-called Christian circles to realize that a change is sorely needed. Luther was not perfect but he was surely used of God to bring about the reformation of the 16th century. I did not hear anything heretical in this seminar but I was very challenged. Anybody out there know of any ways to fix the broken system called church in our time? If not, let's let these men teach us some things or, if not, then at least slap us and wake us out of our slumber.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Don't be naive. These guys, blasphemers, who self appoint themselves to be apostles (that should be a warning sign to you right there) are not Christians, but communists. They've got you into this group think thing.

Work on your own walk with God. We don't need a one world government run united church. That is what they are working for. Read the posts above.

Of course, it sounded good on your first visit. Cults always do. Then they slowly suck you in 'til you are their slave. Read their websites. Their just weird. All they care about is world domination, they could care less about your soul. Sure. there are ways to improve the body of Christ. But joining a cult, like these kooks have, is not the answer.

[Anonymous (81.62.134.56)]

Walter,

In the beginning in my church I was very happy with what they were teaching, actually they were teaching a lot of stuff that I was myself trying to teach to the church. They were puting their finger on some really bad things that happens in the Church. But....

But finally they show what's wrong with the other churches, but they are not better, I think they are even worst. After a few weeks of their teachings you will see all this bad things related on the differents post above.

You know, the problem with the church is not so much about the structure, it's not about the governement of the church, we don't need something new. We need to go back to the Bible, first as individu and finally as a local church, we need to go back to the faith of our fathers, we need a personnal revival and finally a local revival. Not this so-called revival of today, but a true revival who bring sinners to repentance, who bring back the tears in the church, who bring back true prayer and intercession for dying souls, who bring back the true burden of our Lord for this dying world. A revival in our souls who separate us from this world and transform wordly christians in godly christians, who transform selfish christians into dead-to-themself disciples, and so on.

Please brethren, don't search for a new thing, but search for Jesus-Christ and Him crucified. Him alone. He is what the church of our age need. He is what our personnal life need. A real Jesus, not the one that we invent ourself to satisfy our own will, but the Jesus-Christ who say : "Deny yourself, take-up your cross and follow me". If you want to hear some truth don't listen to these self-apointed apostles and prophets, but find some sermons from people like Leonard Ravenhill, A W Tozer, Keith Daniel, etc... these kind of people who don't preach something new, but something true from the Word of God.

We have to go back on our knees.

Raphael

ps: Anonymous (4.10.172.241) you did a great job too! Bless you!

[My Church Is a Cult (198.81.26.106)]

If A W Tozer were preaching today, he would be labled as a cult by someone on this site!

Walter, read the Word, compare line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord is moving as he did in many other times to bring the Church back to New Testament accuracy. There is always fight at first from those who do not understand, do not want to change, or are benefiting from the present system.

Stay strong in spite of the attacks and persecutions!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

What you call attacks and persecutions are warnings and enlightenment to one who is susceptible to being sucked into the darkness of a cult.

satan always has a new and improved version of Christianity. If it sounds too good to be true, it's a lie. satan is a liar.

satan creates the division and lack of will in the churches today. Then he creates a cult to lure the disillusioned away from poor, but free churches. There he's got you good. In a cult. There the brainwashing begins. You will slowly be pulled away from serving God . You will find yourself serving man. Is that what you want, Walter?

[Anonymous (172.131.136.249)]

A.W. Tozer

A Life In Pursuit of God
Although A. W. Tozer died in 1963, his life and spiritual legacy continue to draw many into a deeper knowledge of God. Tozer walked a path in his spiritual life that few attempt, characterized by a relentless and loving pursuit of God. He longed to know more about the Savior—how to serve and worship Him with every part of his being.

Throughout his life and ministry, Tozer called believers to return to an authentic, biblical position that characterized the early church—a position of deep faith and holiness. "He belonged to the whole church," says James Snyder in the book, In Pursuit of God: The Life Of A. W. Tozer. "He embraced true Christianity wherever he found it."
During his lifetime, Tozer pastored several Christian and Missionary Alliance churches, authored more than forty books, and served as editor of Alliance Life, the monthly denominational publication for the C&MA. At least two of Tozer's books are considered spiritual classics, The Pursuit of God and The Knowledge of the Holy—a tremendous accomplishment for a man who never received a formal theological education. The presence of God was his classroom. His notebooks and tools consisted of prayer and the writings of early Christians and theologians—the Puritans and great men of faith.
Tozer's conversion to Christianity came when he was seventeen. As a result he gained an insatiable hunger and thirst for the things of God. A cleaned-out area in the family's basement became his refuge where he could pray and meditate on the goodness of God.
Tozer once wrote, "I have found God to be cordial and generous and in every way easy to live with." To him the love and grace of Jesus Christ were a recurring astonishment," writes Snydner.
Although he had not attended Bible college or seminary, Tozer received two honorary doctorates. He accepted an offer to pastor his first church in West Virginia in 1916. By December 1921, Tozer and his wife, Ada, moved to Morgantown where they had the first of seven children, six boys and a girl.
Money was extremely tight in the early days of his ministry. The Tozers made a pact to trust God for all their needs regardless of the circumstances. "We are convinced that God can send money to His believing children—but it becomes a pretty cheap thing to get excited about the money and fail to give the glory to Him who is the Giver!"
Tozer never swayed from this principle. Material things were never an issue. Many have said if Tozer had food, clothing, and his books, he was content. The family never owned a car. Tozer, instead, opted for the bus and train for travel. Even after becoming a well-known Christian author, Tozer signed away much of his royalties to those who were in need.
His message was as fresh as it was uncompromising. His single purpose in life was to know God personally, and he encouraged others to do the same. He quickly discovered a deep, abiding relationship with God was something that had to be cultivated.
While pastoring a church in Indianapolis, Tozer noticed his ministry changing. While he did not depart from the theme of evangelism, God began to lead him into a new phase of ministry. For the first time he began to record his thoughts on paper. This change eventually carved out a place for him as a prolific writer.
In 1928, Tozer accepted a call to pastor the Southside Gospel Tabernacle in Chicago, where he remained for thirty years. The church grew from a small parachurch to a full-fledged church. Missions and the deeper life in Jesus Christ were its two primary focuses.
"Tozer's sermons were never shallow," writes Snyder. "There was hard thinking behind them, and [he] forced his hearers to think with him. He had the ability to make his listeners face themselves in the light of what God was saying to them. The flippant did not like Tozer; the serious who wanted to know what God was saying to them loved him."
Everything Tozer taught and preached came out of the time he spent in prayer with God. It was there that he shut out the world and its confusion, focusing instead only on God. "Our religious activities should be ordered in such a way as to leave plenty of time for the cultivation of the fruits of solitude and silence," wrote Tozer.
He realized early in his ministry that Christ was calling him to a different type of devotion—one that required an emptying of self and a hunger to be filled to overflowing with God's Spirit. It was also a devotion that consumed him throughout his life.
Leonard Ravenhill once said of Tozer, "I fear that we shall never see another Tozer. Men like him are not college bred but Spirit taught."
"God discovers Himself to 'babes,'" wrote Tozer, "and hides Himself in thick darkness from the wise and the prudent. We must simplify our approach to Him. We must strip down to essentials and they will be found to be blessedly few.
A. W. Tozer died on Monday, May 12, 1963, almost a week after preaching his last sermon. The pursuit was over, the destination reached. A simple epitaph marks his grave in Akron, Ohio: A. W. Tozer—A Man of God.
The wondrous pursuit of God is more than a legacy. It is a way of life passed on to us that we too might experience what A. W. Tozer lived. Have you begun your pursuit of God?

Doesn't sound like a cult leader to me. Sounds like a humble man who encouraged Christians to seek God as inividuals, not this group think thing. You lie again, my church......

[Terry Cooper (195.92.168.167)]

I used to go to a church which aligned itself with WBN. It had visits from Noel Woodroffe and Anderson Williams (? hope that surname is correct).There are some things I would like to flag up.

2 Corinthians 11:3 says, "But I fear lest somehow as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ". I am not accusing anyone or being serpents or deceivers, but I wish to point out that it is possible for our minds to be corrupted, and that they can be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Jesus spoke simply but powerfully. The common people could understand him. I am a university graduate and a tax lawyer, but I had to concentrate simply to understand what the WBN speakers mentioned meant in English when they spoke. It seems to me that they unnecessarily complicated things and you then ask why. My assessment was that the motive was not right.

I am sure that WBN are trying to get a point across by showing diagramatically circles of grace or revelation with Noel W in the middle. However, if this is impliedly saying that revelation proceeds from him and that people should look to him or people further up in the hierarchy for revelation, then that is wrong. We must not lose sight of the fact that God can speak through a donkey, and also me and you. He may even say something significant without telling the leaders or those up the hierarchy!

The fruit of the holy spirit is amongst other things joy, and I did not see that bubbling out of the speakers I saw (though applying that to my own life...).

The church I was in was quite young (majority under 30) and I think they were either "taken in" by what seemed wonderful, or just not sufficiently mature to weigh it.

Lord, take out the wrong stuff, bless and increase the true, and protect your people.

Terry
Coventry
UK

[Anonymous (199.75.36.203)]

Hmm... well there are occasions in the bible where the Pharisees did not understand Christ and also when his own disciples were stumped. So I disagree with your first point that somehow if you had to 'work' to understand what was being said it must be wrong.

Elijah Centre emphasizes prayer. A list of things that the church will be praying for is given every week and these items are prayed for as a church in small groups and in personal prayer. Personal prayer is emphasized and it is said repeatedly you should be praying in your own life (and not just over the list of things we are praying for as a church).

Knowing how to 'breathe on your own' (a phrase that has been used there) is emphasized; that is, 'work out your own salvation.' People are encouraged not only to be receiving in meetings of the church but to actively read the word, worship, pray in your own life so that you are not only strong because of church. People are encouraged to know God for themselves so that no matter where they go and what situations they find themselves in they have a strong personal foundation and can receive strength from the Lord.

The last two messages over the last month were on Personal Purity.

If this is not about having a solid, personal Christian faith I don't know what is.

I read references to rastafarianism and those Caribbean ppl smoking on bongs and their politics. I am embarrassed that Christian people should speak this way. That level of bigotry truly saddens me. What is your (whoever wrote that) experience with Caribbean politics? There are many countries that constitute the Caribbean. Are you suggesting that the politic systems in each of the islands is warped? Are all Caribbean people rastafarians? (Rastafarians are in the MINORITY in every Caribbean country) Is the prevalence of weed smoking among Caribbean people higher than Americans? Please, have some semblance of facts before you speak such folly and do not insult your Caribbean brothers and sisters with such a ridiculous and uninformed caricature of their countries.

I am not a proponent for communism however, you need to rise above your culture. Individualism is a highly western notion, alien to some cultures and quite apart from any discussion of religion. So please separate your politics from this discussion. Don't assume western values equal Christian values. And the bible advocates working out your own salvation but also talks of the solitary being put in families, 'having all things in common' (COMMIES!!!), unity of the faith. There is evidently a 'group' component to the faith and the fact that there are local churches in the first place and the fact that 'where two or three are gathered' He is in their midst should demonstrate that.

Lastly, there are shepherds and there are sheep. Also did you ever hear 'imitate me as I imitate Christ?'
There is nothing wrong with people leading within the church (simply read the bible!). It is incumbent on us to search the scriptures and to test all things and hold fast to what is good.
We ought also to clearly read the Word on our own and know the Lord for ourselves.
That will however, not negate the need for individuals who shepherd us and who are given oversight to 'watch for our souls.' (17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you).
To have a problem with people receiving revelation and instruction from leaders is basically to say there should not be churches and we should all be at home receiving revelation for ourselves.

Again, please simply read the bible which is littered with leaders teaching the people ahd giving them revelation that they received from the Lord and showing them 'the more excellent way.'

[Anonymous (172.160.113.55)]

Nice cult apology, Anon 199.
Cults aren't so bad. They make you feel warm and fuzzy.....
Not!!!!!!!

[Raphael (193.5.216.124)]

Quoted " Hmm... well there are occasions in the bible where the Pharisees did not understand Christ and also when his own disciples were stumped. So I disagree with your first point that somehow if you had to 'work' to understand what was being said it must be wrong. "

hmm... you take an exemple of Jesus speaking in parables to the crowd and them not understanding it. But their ears where closed to fulfill the propheties about this people who hear but don't understand. It's no more something for today.

Jesus himself tell his disciples : "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops." Matthew 10:26-27

There is nothing that God speak to his children that must be hide to the crowd, nothing that must be keep only for a elit who have "upgraded their mind". It's a fact that some people can understand something and someone else can't, but it's not the same than the sermons of wbn who are incomprehensible for most of the christians. Often it's meaning absolutly nothing but it's just a sentance very intellectual who make the speaker look very intelligent. But when you take away all the ornament it's look scary.

[Anonymous (137.205.223.38)]

I dont really feel qualified to post here, but I thought I would add my little bit for what it is worth. The church I go to is currently 'forging closer links with WBN' and at first this worried me greatly, as the talks were incomprehensible (im a uni graduate) and seemed to me to resemble worldly 'positive mental attitude' talks, where long words are used as a smokescreen to hide the fact that they are saying very little. My church has taken this on board and gone to great lengths to try and make the language accessable, and i now have fewer problems with this, although the gist of what our church focus now seems to be is to try and create the perfect church, (and in this, i agree that its quote 'like trying to nail jelly to a wall) but, in all things we should strive to be like christ, and although we are never going to achieve that in this world, we are still called to try. The things that still worry me about WBN are their seeming attitude to other churches (although the church i am in still has close links with another local church), the atmosphere of 'the leader is always right', the lack of emphasis on spreading the gospel of christ (although it is 'assumed' that this will be done by friendship evangelism), and i struggle with the concept of one man leading such a large organisation (although he does have a leadership team who he is accountable to).

I am planning on staying in this church, and seeing where it goes, as i trust those in leadership whom i know personally and trust their judgement of those they are working with. This doesnt mean that i am going to close my eyes and ignore anything that doesnt sit comfortably.

and a quick point about the latter rain movement; I was worried about their open affliation with this group on the website until i looked it up, and the vast majority of websites warning about their evil ways were cessationalist (dunno if thats spelt right), basically people who dont believe in Prophecy etc. The values of the latter rain movement mostly correlated with my own, in that I believe that the Holy Spirit works today, that miracles can happen etc although again one or two of the defining features worried me.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Anonymous (137.205.223.38) -

I trusted my leadership in my former church, but it didn't turn out well. I truly hope your situation *does* turn out well, though. It's good that you are seeing and acknowledge the warning signs. I hope and pray that God keeps your eyes and ears open to Him to any more signs of caution. I also pray your leaders will see, hear, and use caution when needed, too.

God bless and keep you!

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Get out!

[Anonymous (66.123.61.17)]

It is interesting to hear proclaimed university western-educated trained persons indicating that they cannot understand the language of the preaching of the Congress WBN when all across the world in so-called "lesser-developed" countries people are coming into great understanding and clarity. I believe that the Congress WBN relates to about 600 churches in the Democratic Republic of Congo for example and the growth of the understanding of the people and the evidence of a transformed christian life with powerful evengelistic response is very well documented.

Also there has been outreach into Sudan, several countries of the Middle East ( in the midst of Muslim fundamentalism where many preachers are afraid to go)like Iraq for example where the Congress WBN is establishing a center, many African nations where big-name comfortable western preachers do not go - countries like Burkina Fasso, Mali, Republic of Niger where people in depressed circumstances and who are supposed to be " lesser-educated" attend the Breakthrough Schools of Ministry operated by the Congress WBN in about 20 nations around the world. All these people have no problem in understanding the word preached to them.

In addition the message of Reformation and the gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed by Dr Woodroffe and the representatives of the Congress WBN is translated into dialects across the world, and into other languages like French, Russian, Spanish, Romanian, Japanese,Bulgarian to mention a few and all the people understand and do not have the problems that you English-speaking western educated people seem to have. What then is the problem?

The Bible says that wisdom is justified by her children. In another place "By their fruit you shall know (identify and discern) them". The reports of new maturity, christian growth, transformed churches, salvation among many thousands, healings and saved marriages, invigorated leadership, impacted communities and indeed many tired and dissillousioned pastors that have been re-charged and encouraged back into the ministry come from all parts of the world.

Did you people even read the websites and hear the values expressed by the leadership of the Congress WBN? Did you go to the Elijah centre site? Did you even order and listen to the teachings, read the books on prayer , church development and prophetic ministry written by Dr Woodroffe.

Did you read the book The Ultimate Warrior which is one of the best books I have read on personal holiness and the balanced, vital christian life? Do you realize how much inaccuracy and foolishness you have spouted in these comments that can be disproved by simply getting the real information?

Why not visit his home base in Trinidad, Caribbean, as many leaders from around the world do and talk to and see the lifestyles of the people who are beiing built up in Christ there. I have been there personally and I have been amazed at the level of understanding in even the children as they are taught the ways of the Lord. The youths in Trinidad base are beyond compare! Their men's ministry Hebron is filled with men that any church in the world would want to have. Amaziing men of commitment and purpose.

The women of Elijah Centre are all leaders and absolutely excellent examples of Christ-centred womanhood! I have been there and this report is absolutely true. You can go for yourself and seee for yourself. They welcome visitors and even arrange acces for them to various groups so they can prove the value of the ministry for themselves.

The emphasis in Elijah Centre is on the reality of the holy walk of faith. That is emphasized in almost every service and especially when Dr Woodroffe is home from a trip. If that church is an expression of his quality and teachings then he MUST be doing something very good indeed!

IN addition I understand that the Congress is involved in advancing the Kingdom in practical ways around the world - for example developing a leadership institute in Haiti; projects in Kenya; work against AIDS in West Africa; in a deprived community in Trinidad itself. The Congress WBN also connects ot Aborigines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Ketchi Indians in Guatemala and other forgotten groups.

In any global work there could be misrepresentation by a few. I do not doubt that soome people misrepresent the good name and values of Dr Woodroffe and the Congress but then some of the coments, attitudes, bitter values on this site misrepresent Christ himself and yet Christ is untarnished and TRUE.

I hope that this takes this discussion which had had its low points and high points to a new level of sober thinking, purity of heart and balanced approach.

If you are uninformed it is better to withhold judgment, investigate carefully and then speak or not to speak at all.

[Anonymous (172.208.44.62)]

Wow, you make your cult sound so wonderful! I can't wait to join and get my brainwashed. Wash away my memories of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Who needs those three guys when you've got Dr. Woodroffe? When I am blessed to meet him, I will just fall flat on the floor, grovel up to him and kiss his feet! Wow, thanks for enlightening me. Who needs an invisible God when we have God in the flesh in the body of Dr. Woodroffe? NOT!!!!!!!!!!

[InChrist (151.200.152.169)]

anonymous 172, that was a very childish response
why dont you give the people a chance to tell you what really is going on.

[Anonymous (208.131.172.149)]

There is a distinct connection between the quality of our sighting of God and his Kingdom, and the concentrated efforts of the "god of this age" to limit and prevent sight. Anonymous 172 et. al, perhaps you might wish to ask God to "open your eyes".

[jeffrogers (134.139.21.48)]

I recently applied for membership in a CWBN church. The teaching has all been biblical and the praise Rocks. The church is evaluating me as we all know there are "ravenous wolves" about. Of course, it's obvious that I am not blindly accepting the churches' authority but am walking forward with my eyes open.

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

Really, really immature and stupid response Anon 172! Compared to the measured and mature responses of the defenders of the Congress WBN you really sound unspiritual and shallow - just like a ranter and raver and not a very good representation of Jesus. Do you think that he would sound like you!!!! I DEFINTIELY THINK NOT! I am going to check out the Congress WBN and see what value there is there for my spiritual growth. I definitely like the mature and serious way they sound!!!!!

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

Anti-Christ Idiots!!!

[Anonymous (172.148.62.15)]

I feel I am very spiritual in depth. But I have read every post here. I have read every site of congress/wbn....... and I have discerned all of this to be a DANGEROUS MAN WORSHIPPING CULT!
To be naive enough to get sucked into this satan's trap shows a serious disconnection to the Holy Spirit. GET OUT!

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

C'mon Anon 172 why don't you write Woodroffe and ask him questions personally so you can clear up your issues. Do the Biblical thing. You maight be totally wrong you know!

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

Then come back here and tell us what he said!

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

Just copied this off the Kingdom Community Network site. This apostolic network is part of the Congress WBN which was founded by Woodroffe. The section The Importance of Team was put as one of their Operating values.
*******
The Importance of Team Eccl. 4:9-12

Team life provides:

Protection against enemy attack (v12);

Pooling of resources (v11);

Encouragement and mutual support (v10).

Magnification of the reward (v9).

There are five (5) important areas of consideration:

Issues of mutual respect between and among team members

Recognition of the reality of collective responsibility

The assumption of the position of individual accountability

The demand for reciprocal, correlative or mutual response to each other

The requirement for maximum productivity according to individual measure

*******
Does not sound like a "Man Worshipping Cult" as Anon 172 said. Seems like they push the idea of collectivity and team operations.
All of you can check the sites:
www.kcnetwork.org
www.elijahcentre.org
www.congresswbn.org

[Anonymous (172.136.89.2)]

I've read that also. Smacks of "collectivism". (communism). I am speaking to Noel Woodroffe. He is on this board. I have asked him questions. All I get in return is collectivism psycho-babble.
"Protection from enemy attack." So anyone who questions the authority or propiety of this self proclaimed apostle is the enemy? Proof right there, this is a cult. Get Out!

[Anonymous (203.118.133.195)]

Poor 172 - "enemy" - is the spiritual enemy against whom we all fight. You really have no understanding do you? Read what Paul said about us fighting against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the high places.!!! Enough for you . You have been exposed as empty, sarcastic,lacking knowledge and a love for the truth. Everyone now sees you for what you are - a tiny bitter person who really needs God in a big way. Shalom.

[Anonymous (172.208.62.39)]

Poor 203. That's some creative name calling, man worshipper. How does Noel's buttocks smell. You've got your nose up there pretty deep.

I've read what Paul has written. But Noel is no Paul. When I read him writing enemy, I read his enemies, not God's.

I love the truth. And I don't read the truth in any of this wbn/congress cult crap. Write me off all you want. Slander me, call me names all you want. I will continue to be the fly in the cult ointment.

This thread was started by someone who considered this group to be a dangerous cult. Others have testified so. I have done objective research and decided that it is exactly as described. A dangerous satanic cult. I concur with the starter of this thread.

Yet, you are here to defend it. If you really want to try to defend it. Go down the list of the Factnet definition of a cult and tell me why it is not a cult. Looking for your requested response.

[zena (200.108.5.109)]

TO ALL THE ANONYMOUS WRITERS.


You are all COWARDS. Both spiritually and in the flesh,if you are so sure of what you are saying why do you want to remain ANONYMOUS

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

For one reason, because on the internet I am allowed to do one thing I cannot do at work. Discuss politics or religion. If someone I work with visits this site, it could create a possible antagonistic situation at work, if I'm using my name while discussing somebody at work's religion or sect.

[Anonymous (62.167.216.84)]

why you guys are allways fiting?

[Anonymous (172.138.21.33)]

Capitalist Christians and Man Worshipping Communists are always at odds.

Which side are you on?

[62 (62.167.182.43)]

Does any one believe in spiking in tongs? is it from God!

[Inchrist (64.8.198.170)]

172 i think your last post exposed something about you, why dont you do some self reflection , As Christ said , Take the log out of your eye before you tell someone else that they have a flint. sorry to Write this directly to youbut you have me concerned.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.13)]

I am not a cult leader or member. I am not a control freak. I am not decieving people to enrich myself with material, worldly possessions. To speak against a satanic invasion of the body of Christ is a Christian's duty. Why aren't you doing yours? Do you serve man or Christ?

[Simon (212.152.4.15)]

So 172 you're a capatilist Christian!!! wow, so you're exploiting everything, anything and all those around you to obtain as much as possible for yourself, building up your own fortune, finding ways to get richer and richer at the expense of others, keeping it all for yourself, wathcing as your barn gets fatter and fatter, and when there is too much, you just build bigger barns. After all that is what being capatalist is all about. So in other words you're a self centered, greedy, who always wants more Christian!

[Simon (212.152.4.15)]

Also 172 from reading other posts you believe that anyone who follows a leader is worshipping man, so that must mean that you do not attend a church of any shape or form, are accountable to no-one, accept teaching and correction from no one, because to do so would be worshipping man.

Common 172 myself and my brothers from CWBN have tried to post biblical based posts on the doctrinal position of the network we belong to, exposed ourselves to anyone who cares to read our posts, have defended our spiritual Father Dr Noel Woodroffe, and all you have done is attack, insult, slander and made baseless and factless claims of what CWBN is. So show us a bit about yourself, what you believe! or are you too ashamed, are you scared that what you would reveal about yourself will show yourself to be nothing but a charlaten who is in greater darkness then those you are spitefully accusing. If this is not the case and I have completely misunderstood who you are, then prove me wrong by posting some mature, intelligent biblical evidence as to why CWBN is all that you claim it to be. And what you believe to be the truth. I wait with eager anticipation.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

First of all, you show your political side by your definition of capitalism. That is a communist definition. If it wasn't for capitalism, then we wouldn't be able to communicate with these computers we use. Capitalism is the most perfect form of economics man has ever devised. It is not perfect but from what we know and have tried it is the best system ever.

Mercantilism failed. Feudalism failed. Socialism failed. Communism failed. Capitalism succeeds where all others fail. Capitalism gives us the best standard of living, new technologies, new and improved mousetraps, etc. and freedom to boot. Wherever you are in the world, whatever standard of living you have, you have what you have (not what you have not) because of capitalism. No matter who you are, what you have, where you are, you can succeed in capitalism. And you can bless others with jobs, good services and products.

Whenever capitalism is not pure, via government tampering, blending with failed econimic systems and heavy taxation, people lose.

I ask each day that God will bless me so that I may be a blessing to others. If it is a choice between making more money for myself or doing something that would bless someone else, I choose the latter.

Like you said, you don't know me. But I refuse to call anyone an Apostle. The only apostles were the original 12. Anybody else who takes that title is a fraud and allows themselves to be worshipped as being closer to God than others. Drop that appellation. It is cultic.

Yes I go to church and I listen to a good minister. When I disagree with what he says, I tell him so. Do I think he is annointed, appointed, godly, man of God, apostle....... no more than me.

This cult you are in is not of God. It uses non biblical language to attack capitalism, freedom and the Christian Church. It is all ego based and like all other of satan's attempts to attack the body of Christ it will fail, just like communism. GET OUT!

[Simon (212.152.4.15)]

I would like to thank you for your response, it was a pleasure to read.

However I do not agree with your conviction on CWBN, and you do not agree with mine, no matter how much we debate over this, this will not change. I do agree with your definition of Capitalism. I was being deliberately provocative in my previous post, and the definition I gave is not at all what I believe capitalism to be.

Again I thank you for your response.

Simon

[issachar (issachar)]

An 66; I would like to think that most people would agree that the easiest places to fish for membership for cults or borderline christian groups is exactly those under-developed countries where people are ignorant (literal sense). To equate the number of churches joining the WBN from these countries to people who seriously have the ability or knowledge to stand back and evaluate carefully the doctrines they are subscribing to is in itself ignorant.

It is these same countries that have destructive civil conflicts just for this reason. They believe anything and someone came along and told them that this is true or that is true and you must do either this or that, often stirring those people to even kill others who they may have known all their life.

Having myself attended WBN lectures and read material published also, in my opinion, it is quite difficult and confusing to make sense of a lot of it and much is half said or suggested rather than taught clearly and it seems that those who claim to understand to the point of being able to actually pass it on, have been through many hour of teaching/indoctrination.

Not a healthy sign.

[franklin (franklin)]

Just like communist and facist brainwashing. You repeat a lie often enough, soon people begin to believe it.

[seamaiden (seamaiden)]

OK Anonymous (172.208.44.62)

you have one more time to call my community a cult, after that we will go round and round. as for us being an elitist group, that is not true, its not our fault that we can walk upright in the fullness of God and not be ashamed. there is a balance that comes with that too. and as for calling my community in Trini rastafarians...WHAT THE???

[hipstad (hipstad)]

Yeah..know about WBN. My kids school, through its associated AOG church became affiliated witht this Network in 2003. I started to investigate when I saw some worrying things on the website. The Schools P&C sent letters to the WBN to the head honcho..self proclaimed Apostle "DR Wooodroffe", wanting to know more..questioning some doctrinal issues. They received some very arrogant replies.
In short this is a weird group bordering on an Apostolic cult. (Puts Roman Catholicism to shame, in some areas ) They are "Latter rain/manifest Sons of God" groupies. (which for those who dont know was a heretical movement born out of Pentecostalism in 50`s).
Their agenda is to usher in Christs return....by taking control of the earth for Christ (very biblical..not).(but in reality they seem rather more parasitic..infecting /take over other churches. They think they are Gods "elite", leading the Church to "victory".)
One of their aims is to undermine the written word by preaching what they beleive are "relevent" words for today..throught their "prophets'. They talk of "frequencies" "wavelengths" in their special communications with God. (of which the Apostles and Prophets are attuned more than the rest). Many of their doctrines/explanations are nothing but Christianised gibberish.

#####BEWARE>>>BEWARE########.




(Message edited by hipstad on February 01, 2006)

[pablobestez (pablobestez)]

I heard a very disturbing preach from one of their main prophets who expounded on corinthians 2 "I laid a foundation as a master builder".

His basic thinking was that the apostle paul had access to the blueprints of the foundation of church. Therefore, Noel as an apostle also has access to information and insight which is allowing him to be the "multi-faceted grace of God on earth".

If the "prophet" had cared to read the conclusion of the scripture he would read that immediately following that scripture it says "but no-one can lay any foundation other than that which is already laid, Christ Jesus". So the Apostles are appointed to bring the freedom that is in christ Jesus which is freely accessible through Jesus and the word of God. Not to bring some new revelation of Dominionism.

Also, being trained in Psychology, NLP and in particular persuasion technology (marketing, counselling, hypnosis etc) this particular strain of christianity is full of what is very close to brainwashing.

[pablobestez (pablobestez)]

If you're currently experiencing 'crossing over' in your church, please ask the questions:

- what effect is CWBN having on realtionships in your church (does emphasis on 'strategic relationships', unquestioning obedience (and therefore hierarchical structure) and productivity effect the relationships with your friends, if so how?)

- why all the language? acronyms, 'in speak' (ie mechanical metaphors etc.) Did not Jesus speak in the language of the people he was talking to (almost slang in some cases). Why then are we required to plough confusing psychobabble. Are we not at risk of putting barriers up to accessing God?

- What do you think about the statement made by a CWBN leader stating "Noel Woodruff is the multifaceted grace of god on earth"

- Is that Gut reaction you have because God is challenging you through what is preached, or because the holy spirit is warning you....?

- Are there self fulfilling prophecies used to strengthen the idea that Gods truth is being revealed (for instance in one church I know of Noel said "many people will leave the church when you go through crossing over. Don't be alarmed though. This is a seperation that needs to happen so that the strong can remain standing"

erm.. the truth in the church that I know of was that more than half the church left. Because God had revealed to them that something was wrong. But because this self fulfilling prophecy was given, it in fact became a reinforcement. This is the level of deception that is happening!

I do not believe that CWBN or it's members are deliberately trying to confuse or decieve people. I do however believe that they are.

In short , CWBN is a Human understanding of a Spiritual concept and as such is trying to apply a business model to a church structure. They are incompatible. One focuses on achieving, works and success the other on grace, relationship and faith.

God doesn't want employees. He wants servants, brides + worshippers..

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Pablobestez,

Thank you very much for your insightful posts. I have heard one of the "apostles" in this network speak on several occasions, and each time his sermons were off - way off. It was the same garbled language you referred to: creating a new breed of humanity, new technology, new DNA, the "now" word, new frequencies....the whole gamut.

This same "apostle" tried to incorporate my ex-church into the network. At the same time, alot of errors and sins were coming to light about my ex-pastor. The "apostle" chose to berate those of us who were raising concerns about the pastor and lectured us on "not touching God's anointed" and told us we were out of order for even discussing our concerns. He also chose to look the other way and was dismissive over the concerns, which were serious, including how the pastor embezzled alot of money from the church (there was PROOF), how he had an illicit relationship with one of the members (there was proof here too) and how he illegally obtained prescription painkillers many times (proof here too). None of this seemed to matter as much as the fact that the office of pastor was being questioned. Instead, the "apostle" instructed the pastor say a short generic apology, without any specifics, and that sufficed for him to stay in the pulpit.

I also witnessed some of the workings of their rigid hierarchical structure you discussed, which starts at the top with Noel Woodroffe dispensing his "apostolic grace" down the network levels, with the apostles on each level holding higher revelations and truth than each succeeding level. Their rank and file type of structure is serious stuff to them.

This link is to a page from the website of one of CWBN' sectors, Kindgom Community Network website and it is pretty revealing regarding their stance on receiving new truths and added revelations and "core apostolic grace", etc.
http://www.kcnetwork.org/about/beliefs.asp

(Message edited by ontheroad on March 06, 2006)

[setfree1000]

I wanted to congratulate Onetheroad and pablobestez for keeping the spotlight on this Group.

I remember being part of a Group that held meetings in Europe. this Group was an arm of the Congress and one of their leaders said the most alarming thing which was never condemmed by the 'Super Apostle.'

He said that just as God took Noah and used his DNA for a new race in the earth, so too will he take the Spiritual DNA of the Congress members for his kingdom. In other words God was about to forsake mandkind and build his future purposes through the Congress.

The Senior Apostle of the Congress came to Europe and told a group of leaders and I quote, 'WBN Congress is the fastest growing and largest apostolic network in the earth and that basically means me.' I will make no coment and let the readers judge the coment for themselves.

As a former member of this Church I can only warn people to run as far away as possible.

[setfree1000]

I mentioned this before but it seems to have disappeared on the board. It is vitally important that readers know the truth about this church. These are factual accounts of what I have personally witnessed.

If a young lady happens to have fallen pregnant out of wedlock and it comes to the attention of the Super Apostle (Woodroffe). He will make the girl stand on the pulpit and ask her parents to stand before the chruch. The parents will be told they failed and are a disgrace while the girl will be savaged in front of the chruch. She will be told she has done like Aiken and hid uncleaness in her tenth, brining the community into danger.

Now if this is not a public stoning then what is. Thank God The virgin Mary was not a member (point being God could still use the child). Are we back in the old testament times? What about love, forgiveness and compassion? When i asked for an explanation one of their leaders told me it was necessary as a means of lifiting up a certain level of fear in the house. This would ensure that others did not fall into sin.

If you disagree with them and their theology and dear crticise the Super Apostle they will cast you out like a leper and call you unclean. Despite this members refer to Woodroffe as the multifaceted grace of God on earth.

These things are very worrying to say the least.

[ontheroad]

SetFree -

Thank you for your comments and for bringing up to light some of the atrocities done by this group. People do need to be aware of this destructive organization, for it is spreading worldwide and gaining momentum in many areas, not just spiritual, but financial and educational as well. It is sad and scary.

[curious_george]

ATROCITIES??? What atrocities have been brought to light?? Nothing. Did they kick the girl out of the church? Did they make her pay them all kinds of money?? What, where are the atrocities. I have asked many times for you all to inform me what is so sad and scary about this group. And this is it?? Well as I have heard more about them nothing seems so bad. I guess I will have to find out for myself and go find out where I can see someone representing them.

[ontheroad]

So then, I take it that you approve of public humiliation and shaming? And I take it you also approve, among other things, an authoritarian, hierarchical leadership; unquestioned submission to authority; being under the covering and "apostolic grace" of the leader; "new" and changing revelation claiming to be on par with the Bible; planning for global financial control under the control and decisionmaking of a heirarchical leadership; disallowance of questions and disagreement with leadership by members; and a claimed mandate from God to change the rest of the church world to be a new breed of humanity with a "new DNA" based on revelation claimed by leadership?

[curious_george]

All I'm saying is that the warnings about how dangerous they are and the anectdotal "evidence" don't match. The story about the pregnant girl is not told from an eyewitness account. I believe this type of thing should be addressed in front of the church. You call it public humiliation, but you or the other guy who posted it wasn't there. Unquestioned submission to authority?? Well on that one I think it has to come down to what is that authority doing and saying. I mean you guys aren't coming up with stories about them stealing people's homes or life savings. They aren't getting girls pregnant. They talk really weird and have a view of the church taking the dominion and rule the Lord told us to take. Honestly, the church in America today is missing a hierarchy. Everybody does what they want and if they crash and burn or live in hidden sin for years, oh well. I'm not saying everything these guys have to say is on point. But, what harm are they doing?? I still haven't seen any atrocities.

[anonymous505050]

For the record curious george, the accout was from an eye witness. I doubt this would affect you as you seem bent on defending the indefensible. I suppose you agree that the God will now abandon the Human race as the Congress have the spirutal DNA he requires for His purposes.

[curious_george]

Dude, it is obvious that the account was not from an eye witness. He leaves out details and just the way he tells it it is obviously no an eyewitness account. If you believe that then you need just as much help as these people you are talking about. Not only that but I ain't defending nothing. I don't care what people do and say if they ain't hurting anyone. These guys don't seem to be hurting anyone. That's what I keep asking WHAT ATROCITIES!!??!!?? I don't care if someone call himself the man in the moon, is it so bad if someone believes it? I looked at their web site and it doesn't seem to me they are saying that God is abandoning the human race. BUT, if that was what they believe, as long as they are not telling people to sell their homes and abandon their families because of it, big whoopy.

[franklin]

Curious George, cult apologist.

[curious_george]

Hi, Franklin. Glad to see you have joined the fray. Maybe you can identify the ATROCITIES going on here. Nobody else seems to be able to illustrate anything horrendous. Sure WBN is wierd and full of hot air. Their doctrine is not traditional, but c'mon dude!!

[ontheroad]

Curious_George,

What is your reason for being defensive or protective of Congress WBN? I did a message search by your name for the last 30 days and the only thread in the Religious Cults and Sects boards you seem to be posting on is this one, about Congress WBN. Do you have a particular interest in this group or a reason why you keep posting on this thread to defend the group?

[anonymous505050]

I suspect curious george may be the super apostle himself or one of his agents. By pretending to be silly (word use in a pleasant context) he is trying to deflect from the stench that is obvious by the revelations made about this cult.

[anonymous505050]

I wonder what curious george would think if I mentioned that this group has been raising finances since 1993 for a building fund. I should know as I have contributed thousands of dollars over the years.

They were due to construct a church with the money however evey year there was always a problem with the land or deed for the building. It dawned on me that in 13 years they are still leasing their current premises and have not built a thing to my knowledge. In 1996 the fund was annonced to be over $ 1 Million. God only knows how much it is today.

I am in no way implying anything dishonest but simply giving the facts. I was laughed at by some work colleagues when they asked ' so did they ever build the building?' In answering the question I realised that in the 13 years since they started, I have had a few kids, bought 4 properties of my own while they are still renting. Again no implications of dishonesty from me.

I do get annoyed however when some people are able to spend over $200,000 for relatives to do MBAs in the best European Business Schools while the average person struggles through life.

[franklin]

I have looked at wbn and this phony apostle for over a year. I have read their websites and found most of it to read like communist propaganda and of a confusing context and sentence structure that is familiar to all cultic writings. My gut reaction and what I perceive to be discernment from the Holy Spirit is this is a dangerous mind control cult with megalomaniac intentions of world political infiltration and conquest. All we need in this world is another tin horn dictator who self proclaims himself to be an apostle. When I read or hear of any Christian claiming to be an apostle then I smell a man worshipping cult. This is what I discern. And I hate man worshipping, self elevation and cults.

[curious_george]

TO on the road:
This thread has been the only one that has interested me because it is the one of the few in this forum I had no previous knowledge of. I have seen a vehemence that I merely want to understand. This CWBN seems to be a some what new group so I want to be well informed and prepared for any encounters with them. I don't see where I have defended anything. I'm just CURIOUS.

[curious_george]

To anonymous505050:

Yea, I'm the super apostle. But, your mention of the building fund, while repeatedly stating no charge of dishonesty, is what I am trying to get at. What is so dangerous?? That's all I'm saying. Lighten up a bit, dude.

[anonymous505050]

I knew that one would flush the 'fox out of its lair.'

The sentence construction resembles the leader i know. Well everything I said is factual and with no intention to question anyone's integrity.

[curious_george]

You're funny, 5050!! Dude, I want someone's integrity's to be questioned if need be. Your facts may very well be accurate. But where is the danger?? Churches all around the world spend millions on buildings. Where is the danger.

[anonymous505050]

You do not seem to be playing with a full deck of cards mate. Think I will leave you to your folly. Later Dude!

[curious_george]

Just as I thought there is no danger. You are speaking of what you think not of what you know. As most of us do. Thanx for the input 505050. You've been helpful.

[franklin]

So curious, are you a Christian? If so what do you think of someone calling themselves an apostle?

[franklin]

So curious, are you a Christian? If so what do you think of someone calling themselves an apostle?

[curious_george]

Yes, I am a Christian. I find someone calling himself an apostle no different than someone calling himself pastor, reverened, prophet, bishop, evangelist...... all apostle means is one sent by God.

[franklin]

I beg to differ. The original 12 were apostles. They knew Christ. He taught them. Commanded them. Who they hell is this Noel guy? Where does he come off proclaiming himself to be an apostle. There is a hell of a lot of difference between a pastor and an Apostle. Someone calling themselves an apostle is just looking to be elevated and worshipped by the gullible cultees he lords over. Biggest problem with cults is that they set up a human intermediary between them and God. Like as if he is closer to God than others. That is Christ's role and only Christ's role. Down with man worshipping. Screw this guy Noel! He's a con artist!

[anonymous505050]

Dear Curious George,

As you appear to be someone with understanding of church matters can I ask a few questions please. What are your views of Love in the body of Christ. I mean Love is the most powerful dimension of God that there is.

Let be more specific as I do not want you redfining love and going into the Congress 'gibrish.' Do you think people should be treated with respect? Do you bleieve that having a higher 'rank' than someone allows us to verbally abuse and humuliate them? Do you think it is ok to call people unclean and cursed for life? Do you think it acceptable to call pentecostals 'idiots and backward?'

I ask these things Curious George because it is easy for some to speak of 'new positions in the spirit,' about global dynamics in the church etc however lack the basic love for people. Does not Corinthians teach us that whitout love, everything else is futile?

[curious_george]

To 505050:

Of course I think people should be respected. No one should verbally abuse anyone, regardless of rank or position. I do think it is ok to call someone unclean if they have involved themselves in uncleanliness. But, probably not in front of people, depending upon the understanding of the congregation. In other words if people are part of a church and they understand that if they get caught up in something that it will be made public, then I think that's a persons choice to be part of that church. Cursed for life?? I don't think so, I'd have to know the context. To call pentacostals idiots and backwards ain't cool, I also would like to know the context that was said. Not to excuse anything, I just know that quotes taken out of context can be misleading.

[curious_george]

To Franklin:

Your anger is puzzling to me. I have asked you guys many times to let me in all the horrible atrocities these guys have done to people. I mean if Mr Woodroffe is wanting to be elevated, what is his gain?? I have seen the web site and he's not selling blessed hankies and annoiting oils we see many of these guys on TV doing. He's not holding conferences with entrrance fees of $100's of dollars. You said yourself they lease their property. He's down there in a little insignificant island....do you disagree that an aposlte merely means one sent by God?? If you do not then how can you be so upset about him using that title. I've seen all the arguments about the fact that they are no longer needed in the earth since the church has been established. I also have seen all the arguments justifying the use of the word. My point and question still is WHAT ARE THEY DOING THAT MAKES THEM SO DANGEROUS???

[anonymous505050]

The Danger may not be evident from looking at a website. The danger is when you find yourslelf under a powerful influence that is extremely controlling and makes it impossible to question or to leave. I am not speaking about a man I am speaking about a spirit.

Many of the organisations that are called 'cults' apppear very mainstream. It is their behaviour that sets them apart. I will not win this argument and do not intend to.

Maybe you could lecture me on the power of God to forgive and his requirements on His people to do the same. This requirement is regardless of the perceieved offender 'repenting.' Maybe you could help me understand the Love of God and how He evaluates humans. Thats why he chose 12 and some were fishermen. Thats why some of the greatest saints were murderers etc.

[curious_george_1]

To 505050:
(it's the same guy I forgot my password so I registered again)

There is no argument to win. You came on here talking about this relatively new dangerous cult. I wanted some more concrete info. You or no one else has shown how this cult is impossible to leave. I have found quite the contrary to be true. This board has postings from several people who USED TO belong to a WBN churches.....the point of my inquiries was to get more information just in case some one I know or even any of my family members comes in contact with WBN I could speak intelligently about them. You say you are talking about a spirit, how do you know?? Have you sat in on their meetings and if so tell me more not just this abstract stuff you've put out here.

[curious_george_1]

To Franklin:

Were Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Pricilla, Aquila, etc. apostles??

[franklin]

All who were mentioned in the Bible as as apostles are. We can not confirm whether anyone since is or isn't because nobody knows that person's heart and motives except God.

"do you disagree that an aposlte merely means one sent by God??"

I do not know if Woodroofe was sent by God. Nobody does. He should not use that title. Period.

[franklin]

All who were mentioned in the Bible as as apostles are. We can not confirm whether anyone since is or isn't because nobody knows that person's heart and motives except God.

"do you disagree that an aposlte merely means one sent by God??"

I do not know if Woodroofe was sent by God. Nobody does. He should not use that title. Period.

[anonymous505050]

This discussion to me is futile. The members of the Congress has allowed the leader to elevate himself to the position of mediator between God and man. The leader speaks of reformation but he has not fully understand what Luther accomplished.

Pre Luther the church was in decay and filled with corruption. The Priest was the only one with the 'word' and everyone had to wait until he brought the revelation. Thankfully the invetion of printing allowed the masses to access truth for themselves.

The leader of the congress has gone back to pre Luther times in that he alone has final authority on revelation. Although the members of congress have bibles their minds have been grooved into a position of subservience where they just rubber stamp every new wind of doctrine coming forth from the house.

The church is under the influence of religious spirits and this has resulted in the opression felt by some. You are not even allowed to choose your own friends. You have to be assigned to a group chosen by leadership. Your social meetings have to be recorded and the leaders given a report. This under the guise of the body ministering to itself.

The behaviour is cultic and results in the perception by many that it is indeed a cult. The leader does not understand how to use power. If you have a disagreement with him his modus operandi is to run to the congregation, say the most awful things about you and then instruct his 'sheep' to not speak to you for the rest of your life. That is poor use of power.

Potiphar could have said that since Joseph offended his wife all interaction with Joseph would cease for all times. This would have been silly and left no room for reconcilliation. When Joseph came into power Potiphar would have seemed very unwise (probably did seem so in any case).

[franklin]

It's a cult!

[ontheroad]

505050,

You raised some very good points. I, for one, very much appreciate your posts here and the insights you have. I agree 100% with your assessment of this cultic organization. It matches up with my experiences and knowledge of it exactly.

[anonymous505050]

Thanks ontheroad for the encouragement. I decided that rather than suffer in silence like happened in the past, it may be more useful to readers to state the facts on here. I will not be disrespectful or use hearsay but give it as it happened.

The ministry is very versed in shadows and types. This is fine however anything taken too far lands us in dangerous waters.

The leader of the congress started talking about Noah. He said he finally understood the technology of Noah who he says was able to 'craft something in the earth that no one could relate to. Something that could sustain life.'

I shook my head in agreement as at the time of Noah, no one knew about rain and the ark could sustain physical life. The leader of the Congress then flies people in from all over the world for a seminar called 'what does the ark look like.'

After a few days the group presented their findings to the church. The ark suddenly became the Congress and the thing got weird from there. One of the leaders flew into Europe and told his group that God put some revelations on his heart that was on the cutting edge and for the future. The new theory that one came up with was that as God used Noah's DNA for a new race he will now use the spiritual DNA of the cogress for the new breed of christians.

This whole thing started with the leader and ends up into weird twisted theology that satisfies the elites who think God favous them above everyone else.

[yelirus]

Does anyone have information on Steve Schultz, who is associated with Noel Woodruffe?

[anonymous505050]

Or Scott Webster who has been described as a Global prophet. He does not appear to be a significant voice in the US or anywhere else for that matter. He is however the congress' major prophetic voice and has now changed his church name to EC Embassy Atlanta. (It was Scott Webster's devine prophetic utterances that led to the use of the term embassies). Now the church has a Senate, a President and embassies. Whats next?

My question would be if you are a major prophet of God, would you not be able to discern that someting is amiss in the Congress?

[yelirus]

What can you tell me about Scott Webster and his church? Can you expound on his church. Who makes up the Senate, president, and embassies?

[anonymous505050]

I do not know much about Scott Webstre however he has been elevated in the minds of the congress by the leadership. The senate would be like deacons in most churhes however this is the name they are given in Elijah Centre. The President is of course the Super Apostle himself and the embassies are like cell groups in various areas.

I know there has been loose talk of one day having their own satelite in space etc. Part of ther business trust is to create 'alternative economic systems for when the earth systems fail.' If they keep at it they might as well move to a new planet with their own army.

[anonymous505050]

I get these emails everyday in my inbox from Joel osteen's ministry. They are the largest and fastest growing church in the US today. While I am not plugging anyone's ministry, these words are very encouraging and uplifting to any believer. In my association with the Congress you did not hear things like this. With the Congress you never seemed to be good enough for God. He was seldomed pleased and as humans we had to keep constantly being 'adjusted.' What we ended up with was justification by works and a humanistic opression that saddled us with guilt. Thank God that He is raising up New SONs to build and encourage the body of Christ!



You Are Pleasing to God!

Today's Scripture

"Before you were ever formed in your mother's womb, God saw you and He approved you." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Today's Word: from Joel and Victoria

You are approved by Almighty God! You are created in His image and you're the apple of His eye. You did not choose God, but He chose you and He is pleased with you–His most precious creation.

Notice that verse doesn't say that God approves you as long as you don't have any faults, or as long as you don't make any mistakes. No, God approves you unconditionally. No matter how many weaknesses you may think you have today, no matter how many times you fall in your walk with the Lord, you've got to get right back up again and hold your head up high. Don't allow the enemy to bring strife into your life by deceiving you into thinking that you are not "good enough" for the plan of God. Stand strong in your thoughts about yourself knowing that not only have you been chosen, but you are approved by Almighty God.

A Prayer for Today

God, remind me that no matter how many times I fail or fall short of Your expectations, You have already given me Your eternal "stamp of approval." I was made in Your image. Help me to have a healthy, positive self image so I can face the world with confidence. In Jesus' name – Amen.

[yelirus]

505050
You seem familiar with WBN. How long did you attend, and what ultimately made you leave. Did you attend Scott Webster's church? Concerning Noel Woodruffe, have you or anyone else out there heard him say or do things that do not agree with Scripture? My struggle, is that while I question their governmental structure approach, could it just be my flesh rebelling against something I'm not comfortable with. You had also mentioned in an earlier post about $200,000 mba's for relatives. Could you expound.

[anonymous505050]

I have nothing to expound on anything I mentioned previously. We have all been given free will. If the teachings of the congress works for you, then good luck.

[yelirus]

505050
As you or someone else previously posted there are typically many truths mixed in misinformation. My church has not been involved with Noel W. very long so I'm just trying to gather as many facts as possible in order to make an educated decision. I appreciate your imput. You seem honest and appear to have been under Noel's direct teaching at one time. Please don't shut me out on this if you have other relative information. The spirit you spoke of might be that of "nicolaitions". If you type in that word it seems to describe WBN. Do you or anyone else agree?

[anonymous505050]

I looked into the word Nicolaitan and found the following.

'A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people." This clerical system later developed into the papal hierarchy of priests and clergy lording over the flock. The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination, consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema." It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into a hierarchy over the people. This very idea was taken over by the Protestants with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings. The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God's sight and He hates the lust for religious power over others. There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion of the rightful authority of God.'

[yelirus]

Since you've attended a WBN church in the past do you feel "Nicolatitan" describes them?

[anonymous505050]

I never said I attended their church. They have several conferences in the past and i came into contact with some of their stuff. To answer a previous question, No I have not heard or seen anyone on their leadership do anything that was imoral or illegal(think that was what you really wanted to know).

One can disagree with the teachings of a church and in this forum is free to liken some of their behaviour to cults. We however need to be cautious in mentioning individuals as issues of libel among other things can come into play.

I quoted the description of the nicolations, you and others can form your own opinion.

Take care and God Bless.

[joyful_in_jesus]

My church began probation with WBN about a year ago. It greatly disturbed me when the Apostle Steve Schultz stood in our midst and told us to forget what we had learned up to that point because the Lord had just released Apostles back into the earth and they were the only ones anointed to interpret the scriptures. So sit back relax and they will tell us how to think. He then said the rapture was made up and there wasn't going to be a Great rapture of the church, no where in the Bible does it talk about a rapture and that it was the worldly church view, let's get out of here. Obviously 2 Thessalonians is missing from his Bible. He then began to tell us that Israel had nothing do with end time events and in the Bible where it talked about Zion and Israel it was referring to us the church"replacement theology". Has anyone else been taught these erroneous teachings? They are ludicrous and totally unscriptural. My Bible says when you see Israel compassed about by armies, Lift up your head for your redemption draweth nigh.

And if I might add,the Bible is very clear that the Gospel is simple, so simple that a child can understand. They are not preaching the simplistic Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, they are not concerned with souls. They want the "Reform the Church". I agree the church needs REFORMATION, but it doesn't need the WBN, or the Congress. All we need is Jesus!!!!!!!!
Anything else is counterfeit, and Anti-Christ, THE Great Apostle Paul his ownself said so!

May the eyes of our Understanding be enlightened by the Hope which we have in Jesus Christ.
God "Jehovah" Bless and Keep You

[yelirus]

5050 - Thankyou for your straight forward and honest posting.
Joyful - You said Steve Schulz stated that "the Lord had just released Apostles back into the earth and they were the only ones anointed to intrepret the scriptures". Was this an exact statement, or are you paraphrasing?

When he 1st came into our church he started talking with all these big words and no one understood him. All lot of people did not feel comfortable with him and some left. He did a transformation (I assume at the elders suggestions) and started talking more at our level. I, as did others have never been comfortable with him even though things he's said appear ok scripturally concerning God. The problem is that most of the topics he deals with concern governmental issues of accepting authority in our lives. That authority I assume would be our elders and WBN. I've never heard anyone talk about authority in the terms he uses or in the terms our pastor uses which I assume were passed down from Steve Schutlz. These are issues that are difficult to reference back to the Bible.

Jesus said something to the effect that "My yoke is light". You're right, the Gospel is simple but this stuff is mind boggling.

[anonymous505050]

Dear Yuhlierus,

I never said on here that I attended a WBN church neither have I said I did not. If you read through all my postings you should be able to draw the natural conclusion. My position is though, although we can criticize under the guise of anonyminity, there is still a responsibility to represent the facts. This of course as you mention can be misinterpreted.

To believe the WBN is a cult would natuarly infer that it is not a place where God exists. To critize the teachings of the leaders whould natuarly infer that they are operating outside the realms of scripture.

Again it is always easier to criticize and say what we are against. It is always harder to articulate what we are for.

Be blessed.

[franklin]

Steve Schultz is a heretic and WBN is a CULT! Get out!

[franklin]

Only Apostles that have been released in this world now are out of our butts and they are not holy and they smell bad. We don't need no stinking apostles. We have Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We have all we need to know God! WBN is a cult! Get out!

[joyful_in_jesus]

Dear Yelirus, Thank you for your response. Yes, those were his"Steve Schultz exact words". I was raised in a christian home, I teethed on the back of pews. I know the truth, and when he said some of those things literally my mouth flew open. He also told us that most of the things he was going to say was going to offend us, but if we wanted to be a part of what God was doing in the earth today we would have to basically get over it and accept what he was saying. If we didn't we were welcome to leave but we would not be welcomed back and for the members of the church to dust off their shoes to the ones who leave. I didn't leave immediately, but my Pastor began to change and He was becoming a sheep driver, not herder. The Word is very clear that Pastor's are to Love the flock, not Lord over them. I was the worship leader at our Church, and the "Open Heavens" that we once experienced became more and more like brass. God is very clear about his stance on israel, if you bless Israel,you will be blessed. If you curse them, you will be cursed. I hate to see my friends so deceived. These are extremely intelligent people, but they have just been brain washed. I pray that their eyes will be enlightened. Oh yeah, we were told to be apart of WBN we had to GIVE a certain percentage of our offerings to the organization. So we could all help to bear one another's financial burdens. All of this is first hand experience, I was there, but thank God I have been delivered from this other Gospel.
Be Blessed!

[anonymous505050]

Thanks for your posting joyful_in_jesus. I think the term sheep driver is very appropriate for this bunch. They have no concept of the love of God hence the way they behave. God has delivered you from something that potentially could have done you great harm. We can only pray that others are as fortuante as you are.

My expereince suggests that those who have been grounded eslwhere are more able to make an informed decision an leave. Those who came into christianity under this type of organisation find it much tougher.

Stay strong.

[yelirus]

Joyful,
Thank you for responding. Could I ask how long it has been since your association with Steve Schutlz. If it has been years it is possible for him to have changed his ways (matured). What was (is) your take on WBN? Did Noel Woodruffe, Scott Webster, or Anderson Williams say or do anything that raised red flags?

[yelirus]

Franklin,
George Burns was once asked to join a club. His response was that he would not want to join any club that would want him as a member.

Some of your comments are detrimental to your appeared positions.

[anonymous505050]

As we are having an intelligent debate about this let talk of what two of the names you mentioned teaches. I am speaking of the two from Trinidad.

They teach that God needs man to accompish his purposes (sound true but there is a catch). They teach that God does nothing whitout first telling his apostles and prophets. This sounds scriptural but what they are really emphasising is that the leadership knows what God is doing and therefore you need them to access God.

I heard them both teach that Man is in the 3 dimensional realm and God needs him to be able to do anything. Now my basic problem with this is it gives man especially those with huge egos a sense of importance which I am not sure was intended in scripture. My bible still says God is the Almighty and can do whatever He wills. If we do not praise HIM the rocks will. He could use a donkey to speak or a man with a PHD.

The teaching that elevates men especially clergy is at its root of an anit christ spirit.

The reformation as advocated by men like Luther, Calvin and other reformers empowered people. The masses now had a say. The reformation advocated by the congress puts the power back in the hands of the priest. If joyful's account of what Steve Shultz says is accuarte then that is unfortunate. Apostles are not the only ones to interpret scripture. Anyone who has a heart for God can do that.

[franklin]

I get sick and tired of man worshipping. Idolatry. Putting some megalomaniac, poofy haired preacher man between us and God. People looking up to a man to show them the way to God, or a man to tell them what God says. We already have that Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Why would we need a mere man to tell us what Christ already has and what the Holy Spirit will everyday in our hearts?There are no modern day apostles. Anyone that claims to be is an apostle of satan!

[joyful_in_jesus]

Dear Yelirus, it has been a year and 4 months since I have had anything to do with the afore mentioned. However, Some dear friends left about 4 months ago and they were deeply troubled about how things were going. They went to a seminar and were taught the same things over and over about how God was replacing Israel with the church. How that the land really belonged to the Palestinian people and other such nonsense. I do believe that all men are to be saved and call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, God's word is still true. Israel, the Jews are God's chosen people and that land belongs to them, the Israelites. One thing that my friend kept saying was, He is so arrogant. I never had any contact with Woodruffe, only through the apostle that came. I am truly burdened for our church family as a whole, we must pray for them and ask for God's mercies. We need to pray that they will come back to the truth and the simplicity of the Gospel. And if I might add we need to love them not attack them, that sets us apart from the world. That's how God reveals his Glory in the earth is through us, how we respond to things that {raise our righteous indignation}. We need to be the love chapter, not just quote it. Be Blessed!
Be Blessed!

[franklin]

joy.....

"only through the apostle that came."

That was no apostle that came.

That was just another pompous, slick con man with a self appointed, self anointed title to make you think he was closer to God than you are. That's how he gets paid the big bucks. By deception. You do not need any so called apostles to tell you what God says. Listen to the Holy Spirit yourself. Stop kissing man's feet. Stand up. we are all equal under God. Christ died for that cause. We only go through Christ now to get to the Father. No some pompous charlatan! Quit worshipping man. There are no modern day apostles! Look up to God! Not man!

[yelirus]

Dear Joyful,
Shhhh. Let's keep this quiet if we can. I'm going to try and sneak this in without Franklin catching it.
Could I ask who was the apostle who spoke about the Jews/Palestinians.
Much thanks}

[joyful_in_jesus]

Dear Yelirus, it was the afore mentioned name in one of the previous postings. I know this hasn't got anything to do with wbn but have you heard about this new movie that is supposed to be released this summer called the "BEAST". This is some pretty frightening stuff. They are marketing the 666 sign to children and all kinds of stuff. I just found out about it today. Go to the God that wasn't .com, Let me know what you think Be Blessed, our redemption draweth nigh!!!

[franklin]

Is your apostle like the Pope. Do you placate yourself at his feet? Do you kiss his ring? Do you worship this man? Is he closer to God than you are? How do you know? Did God tell him to tell you that he was anointed? Drop the apostle title. The guys a crook! You've been flim flammed!
Listen to God for yourself! WBN is a cult!

[yelirus]

Thank you Joyful,
Wasn't quite sure what to type in. Tried the God that wasn't.com but nothing comes up. Is my computer illiteracy showing? Please clarify.

Franklin - I love you man. Actually I agree with most things you say. I might not say it in the same way but I appreciate your fortitude.

[anonymous505050]

Yelirus appears to be trying to entrap someone. All the postings are clear yet he/she keeps asking for names or in other cases trying confirm if someone was a member of WBN.

The honourable leader of the Congress claims to be a spiritual giant who as an Apostle God reveals his plans to. I am sure therefore that if a major move of God were to pass through his church he would spot it and not miss it completely.

Being a part of WBN/ congress is like being a prisoner in the movie 'the Island.' It starred Scarlet Johansen and Ewan McGregor. They were told the world outside had 'danger' and if you were not under the 'covering' calamity would befall you.

If you do leave and start your own ministry they would love you to fail so they can go to their members and say 'see what we told you.'

I would not put it pass them to even summon forces to try and trip you up. They are free to do it as these things only makes us stronger and allows us to trust God more.

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on May 02, 2006)

[joyful_in_jesus]

Dear Yelirus, type in the beast and then look for the site that talks about the movie that is going to be released 6-6-06. It also talks about the god that wasn't there.

[anonymous505050]

As 505050 is about to be exterminated I think I should say someting positive about the WBN. This is tough but some of the things they taught have benefited me today. These would be in relation to having a global perspective etc. It is a shame things are where they are.

Dear Franklin,

I have read all your postings and it appears the mere mention of the word Apostle triggers a negative reaction. Your anger is evident and I was wondering if you were part of a 'cult' in the past or had a particularly trumatic experience with the same. What ever the situation please be assured that the anger you feel today will one day pass (if you allow the Lord to heal you). What you do not want is to have people push your buttons knowing that you will respond in a particular way.

Have a pleasant day.

[yelirus]

505050 You stated that I am trying to entrap someone because I ask for specific names. Who could I possibly be trying to entrap and for what purpose. It appears everyone posting since I began has already left WBN or has never been a part of it. I asked you if you had been a part of it to determine if you were hearing 1st hand information or just possible gossip.(I'm still not sure if you were or weren't). I'm not sure where Franklin stands. The only one I can say for sure was a part of WBN was Joyful and that is why I was asking her specific questions. My situation is this: I am attending a church that has WBN as their covering. I was asking Joyful for names because I'm trying to determine if it was the same people/person who have been at my church to determine their validity. Just as you stated when you said something positive about WBN, I also see what appears to be some positive things in my church. I see some people changing for the better. My dilemma is do I keep going to a church that is under the covering of an organization that from what I read from you and others is not good. I trust Joyful's postings. She has been there and experienced 1st hand. I haven't heard SS say the things in our church that she says he has said in her former church but now can be watching for it. On the other hand I need to be careful. These postings are pretty much all anti-WBN and I need to try and be balanced in order to make an informed decision. For now, I will continue praying as I do every day that God will give me clarity on this and what direction to take. I appreciate your information and honest postings and part of what you said goes into the mix of me determining what to do next. My feelings right now are that whether WBN is legit or not I believe God wants me at this church. I will continue however to explore WBN and if I see evidence that doesn't line up with scripture will go to my pastor for clarification.

God Bless.

[yelirus]

Joyful,
There were a lot of different things that came up when I typed in the beast so wasn't able to find what you had mentioned but I appreciate that and your other postings.

[joyful_in_jesus]

http://www.thebeastmovie.com/trailer/

[yelirus]

Dear Joyful,
Thank you for the movie link. I think it is clear the US is being divided in 2, with the gap getting larger all the time. This was clear in the presidential election when Bush defeated Kerry after the Florida fiasco. This movie is just the opposite of the Mel Gibson movie. The liberal press and Hollywood are getting more and more emboldened. Nothing should surprise us. The gap between right and wrong will continue to increase.

I believe you have a good heart that people sense and come to you to talk and lay out their problems. Keep being that "light to the world".

I hope you don't think as 5050 said that I'm trying to trap anyone. I'm only trying to gather information. If you have anything else you're willing to share about SS or Wbn I'd like to hear it.

Thank you

[seamaiden]

I WAS THERE

When that girl was called out front of the rest of the Congres WBN network.

first off let me start off by saying that
1. Yes I am the same seamaiden that posted here on this self same message board over a year ago (just scroll up and you will see how quick i was to defend)
2. why am i back here you ask? because my eyes have been opened, my family has been ostracized and this Congress WBN is very "cultish"

I was there when that girl was called out in front of entire network. my former church Eagles Landing Church is a part of the Network and we were 'summoned' one sunday to go to a fellow church near arlington virginia. it was a supposed to be a time when all the network churches would get together and here some big todo that Noel Woodruffe himself would be downloading to us via the net. at the beginning of the service Noel woodruffe said that he had something unpleasant that he had to do. he called this one girl and her family to stand up in front of God and everyone and basically said

1. she went and got herself pregnant
2. she had been counseled that the way she was going was wrong and had been warned.
3. people do make mistakes, but if this happened again, then she would be banished from any of the Congress WBN networks. not from the body of christ mindy you, just from the network.
4. she brought shame to church.
5. people were not supposed to coddle her (in that church at least)

needless to say that the way it was delt with, put the fear of God in me.

Why did we (my family and I) leave?
1. Isolation
2. we were getting away from the word
3. depending too much on Noel Woodruffe.

many incidents have been seen in our particular church that led to our departure. now i hear you can basically have sevice there on 3-way.

Crap that went on was not kosher.

[seamaiden]

....i am back....

unkosher crap such as a family being criticzed(sp?) on how they were dealing with there household.

my grandmother passed away just before the christmas holiday. my grandmother had been doing well but then dropped off health wise for about a year and half, and my father left to be with her in december. she had been lifted up in prayer during battle lines off and on during the her illness. also at the same time, out pastors wife's mother was also doing poorly and there was not a sunday where we did not get a blow by blow of what was going on. anywho my grandmother passes away, and the rest of my family go and be with my dad and extended family. my pops was real close with his mother.

keep in mind, our church at that time was only about 25-30 people, so isolation should not have been a problem right? WRONG. upon our return we got a message on our answering machine asking us to pray for another family who just lost a grandmother as well, nothing asking about us or our affairs or how family was doing...zip zilch nada. so basically my dad was like, I'm not going back there. that put the nail in the coffin for him.

my mother sis and i were going sparadically. i was accepted to a university back in november 05 and started going this year in january. I started going b/c

1. i need an education
2. i was talking with a friend of mine a week before leaving. that sunday my pastor gets up and says he feels impressed from the Lord to say that this a thing being done from the Lord etc etc, basically confirming everything etc etc.

so i am away from home, doing alright in school. i am not a party animal, stay pretty much in the books, in God. I've got to because this campus is sooo liberal and tolerance sucks. i stay in contact with my mom and she's pretty much on the fence as to whether or not we should stay or go. by this time people are slowly drifting away. spring break rolls around and i am home for that time. sunday morning comes and we wake up a little late, but i tell my mom "yes, you and me are going to church. lets go lets go."

It had to be Gods perfect timing because the pastor was speaking about what should be done, communication etc etc. we were feedbacking with each other and people were giving thoughts and opinions. my mother was hesitant to say something, but i whispered to her that i would stay there and have her back. Because crap needed to be said and laid out there. So its her turn and she's saying that there has been a lack of communication and as a result love that was presented during our time of grief. no one extended curtsey or an arm to my father. she also called out the 2---T-W-O people that did send cards. my mother taught in the sunday school and how she would pass by the parents in the hall and not even get a "Hi how are you". some other issues that went on with my family, the pastor had a whole 3 months to see to, he never did.

needless to say it was laid bare. forgiveness was extended and recieved and we thought that was that. No. the pastors wife emails me with this:

[seamaiden]

Hi
>I just wanted to touch base with you and let you know again that we love
>you and are sorry to hear of the sense of neglect that you and your
>family are feeling. I hope that you will continue to stay in touch. I
>was out of the room part of the time when your mom was speaking so I
>don't know if she said what her status was (regarding remianing in
>fellowship at ELC or moving on). Now that you're an adult, I'm wondering
>what your thoughts are and where you feel the Lord wants you to be
>rooted. Please send me a note and share your thoughts. I do care about
>you, your develoment and your progress.
>Look forward to hearing from you,


My mother was very <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> about this. why would the pastor's wife send an email to me; the daughter, circumventing the mother, calling me an adult now that its convinenient. I didn't raise the issue (then), my mother did and my mother has yet to recieve and email from the woman.

I replied in turn with this:
I am sorry i was not able to make it to church sunday. I was ill.


have you asked her?

its at times like these, that I wish I was more God focused instead of me-focus.

i will continue to maintain what i hope to be more than just "contact" with you all. while i am going to school down here, i will pursue a youth group/young adult group geared to people in my lovable stage of life.

my hope and prayer is that the transparency, and the aspect of "living into one another" will supercede just emails and gracious hi's and how-are-you's at church. now that the number has been--for lack of a better word, "whittled' down, there should be no excuse for neglect or isolation on anyones part, including my own.

I've got class to get to but if you want to talk, my phone number is -- and i am available mostly after 7pm.

[seamaiden]

I have recieve and email from her since. and have barely communicated with that church or anyone in there. other events occured which have caused to cut off communication with them. but before i did, i questioned my pastor and asked him to explain to me how the church wasn't a cult, and so i submit this to you guys for your own dissection.

[seamaiden]

Hi,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. ------ asked me to help respond to your question about reformation and cults. So, that's why I'm involved here.

I went to dictionary.com and got this defintion of a "cult".

Cult - "A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader."

Let's look at this definition and see how it applies to reformation. The first part deals with the two words "extremist" or "false". Looking at what we are learning about reformation, do you see those two words having application here? Are we "extreme" which means "extending far beyond the norm". Of course, this means we can answer the question, "What is 'normal" Christianity?" To many people, we may look extreme in our beliefs. To others, we might look half-hearted. Personally, I feel we are trying to live a life of obedience to what God is showing us. I don't want to be half-hearted in my obedience to Him, so that might look "extreme" to somebody who just wants to go to church and then live a life disconnected from the life of a believer, or just "sort of" Christian. Then there is the word, "false". Doctrinally, reformation is very sound. I have a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies from Regent University, a very conservative school It is not what you would call "liberal" in its approach to biblical interpretation. From what I see being presented, reformation is based solidly on the truths of the Bible. It is commited to removing human viewpoints that have watered down or taken away from the full impact of Scripture. Does that mean we are perfect in every respect? No, we declare we don't know everything yet. Nobody does. But to what we do know, we are trying the best we can to be accurate and obedient to the Bible and to what God is revealing to us. Now, the fact is, people look at what we are teaching and see that it cuts cross-grain to many things in the traditional church in the US or elsewhere. It rubs against traditions that "seem" true, but in reality are inaccurate. When people see reformation challenging popular thinking, a common response is to declare it a "cult". It seems "false" because it does not fit into the traditions people are holding onto. However, even in Jesus' day, He confronted the religious leaders of His day and rebuked them for allowing their religious traditions to nullify the Word of God (see Matthew 15:3-7).

(Message edited by seamaiden on May 05, 2006)

[seamaiden]

The next part of the definition says cults live in an "unconventional manner". In reformation, we are challenging many of the "sacred cows" of the traditional American church. This IS "unconventional". We are knowingly going against religious "convention". Some of these traditions, practices, views have been around so long, some people equate them with God and the Bible. In reality, they are or were man's interpretation of what they thought was right or correct. We are challenging those views. Does this make us "unconventional"? To some people, yes, we are. Does make us a "cult"? Well, then it's a matter of interpretation. Are we challenging the central truths of the Bible? No. If we were becoming "unconventional" in our view of Jesus, the cross, salvation, etc. then people would be justified in branding us a "cult". If you study church history, you will see that reformation has been an ongoing process. Men like Martin Luther challenged "convention" in his day and the Catholic Church labeled him as a "cult". So, from Martin's perspective, he may have thought, "Good, I hope you think I'm a cult. I don't want to be identified with the error in your way of thinking." So, every time reformation challenges popular thinking, convention, etc. it runs the risk of being thought of as a cult. Is it really a cult, however? Not from a technical definition of the word.

[seamaiden]

The last part of the definition says that it is run by a leader who is "authoritarian" and "charismatic" Authoritarian means, "characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime." I have known Noel Woodroffe for fifteen years. I know his wife, June, their three daughters, his friends, his leaders in the church and network. I've watched him over the years in his interactions with all of them and he is not in any way "authoritarian". He does not demand "absolute obedience". He is not against "individual freedom". He is, however, authoritative, "having or arising from authority; official: an authoritative decree; authoritative sources." He does have authority, the right to exercise command. We call it "ranking" in the spirit realm. It is something one has to recognize with their spiritual eyes. It's not based upon some title, or organization, or how big a church someone has. John the Baptist had none of these kinds of things and yet the occupying army of the day, the Romans, came and asked him what they should do. Why? Because they saw he had authoriity. The tax gatherers did the same thing and for the same reason. They had spiritual recognition of his ranking in the spirit. They realized he carried the authority of God and that he spoke with God's authority, His backing. When someone speaks with God's authority, something in your spirit registers, acknowledges it. That's what I have discerned in Dr. Woodroffe's life. He doesn't demand my obedience, doesn't even insinuate it. But it is a truth in the Bible that when you recognize authority, a proper response is to submit to it. Not by becoming some blind slave, but by listening with an open heart and looking for God's command to come through this human vessel. This is how God works, through people. We see it in Moses and on throughout the Bible. People challenged Moses in his day, questioned his authorty, even his big sister, Miriam did that. There is something in human nature that resists God's authority. Adam fell into it and man has had to deal with this bent-ness in the human heart ever since. However, I believe in Christ, we have the ability to see and accurately respond to God's authority. We don't have to allow our fallen nature to jerk us around. We can learn to recognize and accurately respond to God's authority as it comes to us through His servants. Anyone with God's authority is not speaking on his own behalf. That person is just a messenger relaying what God wants done in the Earth. It is up to God's people to have the maturity and responsibility to know when God is speaking to them and to respond correctly.

[seamaiden]

The last word "charismatic" means, "a rare personal quality attributed to leaders who arouse fervent popular devotion and enthusiasm." Looking at the words "devotion" and "enthusiasm", you can see these aren't bad or wrong in and of themselves. They are actually good, but only if they are turning people in the right direction. So, if a leader uses his "charisma" to inspire "devotion" and "enthusiasm" toward God in a good way, then that's great. I hope I can be "charismatic" then in that way.

So, I hope this has helped clear up some of these questions for you. Please feel free to ask more if you like. I am more than willing to help you here, ----. Looking forward to seeing you again soon.


and that's the end of the email.


Scripture says to search out your own salvation with fear and trembling. thats something i will continue to do. With all my heart I want to follow the Fathers leading. but when a man says that just because you don't follow him or that he is the apostle and just because your network reaches into all points of the earth, and just because you can "tiptoe" into nations doesnt make you at all correct. putting a young girls business out on the street in front of who knows how many others. that crap could've been handled off the net in and that congregation alone.

[anonymous505050]

Seamaiden,

Thanks for your comments. I was at first confused by the long post until I realised that part of it was an email from your pastor. I too have witnessed young girls being publicly humiliated for getting pregnant. What you are saying now is even more alarming. I did not know that this was being spread across the internet.

My basic problem with this Leader is his total disregard for the feelings of people. That is not a biblical and godly pattern. The leader of WBN is trying to build a global organisation which includes businesses, churches, hospitals, schools etc. This with him at the centre as the ruler. What I have discovered is if you diagree with him he will use that influence (or desired influence) to tell eveyone in the organisation to not interact with you. It means if you are working you could loose your job. A doctor in the hospital can refuse to treat you. You are also barred form any of the churhces all over the world. Now is this healthy?

God forbid if this thing grows as power in the wrong hands as in the case of Saddam Husein, can lead to gross abuse.

Keep Strong.

[kenerina]

To my Dear brothers and sisters in Christ
We are living in perilous times there is fear of terrorism,wars, the weather,earthquakes,hunger,the stench of death is rampant across the world and as i read this forum am convinced that fear does not discriminate even the (I'm stepping out on a limb ) christians on this forum are not immuned to it fear is a very real thing and so is change humans do not adapt very well to either it means stepping out of those comfort zones we know so well and feel safe within.yet Tim2v7 says i do not give you a spirit of fear but of power and love and of a sound mind so far i am unconvinced that some people are of this mind.
to annonymous i will pray for you brother/sister i believe that #1 if you felt so strong in your beliefs why do you feel the need to hide behind anonymous do not fear fear ! but only fear the lord thy God.
I have had the privellage of being a student of the BSM school and still am and yes i agree with you the word says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling let me say right here and now that it has been through years of constantly seeking , knocking and asking and having a reverential fear of my God and trusting him that he has bought me to come under the apostle Dr Noel Woodroofe .
I feel a deep sense of sadness for christians who spend alot of there precious time on this earth pulling down trying to rip apart , ridicule and put to death what God is trying to do in the earth????????sound familiar it's exactly what happened to Jesus!! the pharisee spirit is rampant in the church it is alive and kicking now as much if not worse than in the days of our Lord Jesus ! the bible says my people perish for lack of knowledge .
i encourage you brothers and sisters let us love one another seek 1st the kingdom of God &amp; his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you let us all put God first and allow him to open the eyes of our hearts and lead us into all truth.
Finally i want to say that God has moved me into a new season as i have sought him a season of apostolic reformation it is a journey that the lord has led me on and not a wind of doctrine that i am being tossed to and fro in it has been life changing the power of God in my life has never been more tangible and real and i will continue to press on to mark &amp; the higher calling that God has on my life
God Bless you all.}}

[knightmare3000]

I say that on any of these ministries,first see where they bank. Are they involved in money laundering at all? Even their own members may not realize that. I read in BASELINE magazine ( IT journal) that Creflo Dollar ministries bring in about 90 million a year!

[kenerina]

greetings brother ,
I would draw your attention to Exodus12v30-42 where God delivered his people from the bondage of slavery and rule under Pharaoh / (the world systems) and he not only delivered them but they took the spoils of war ,God gave them favour in the sight of the Egyptians such things as they required jewels, gold, silver, rainment God gave to them the very things they needed now why would he think they would need such things as these after all they are merely treasures of earth not spiritual treasures well i believe that it is to use on this earth to also provide what is necessary to bring Gods purposes to pass in this worldly system remembering there is a natural realm as well as a spiritual one God wants his people to thrive and prosper in this world system whether he gives us 1 or 10 talents each and then sees how we use these talents are we wise servants or are we a fool and his money are soon parted i pray brother you do not pass judgement on Mr Dollar if he can take that talent and make it flourish and grow in prosperity by using the world system to do so and spoil the Egyptians in the process to further Gods kingdom who are we to say this is wrong .
verse 42 says : it is a night to be much observed unto the lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt:this is that night of the lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in thier generations"
well brother i don't know about you but i an from a generation of Israel and if God gives i will recieve and try my very best to be a good steward with what he has entrusted to me to further his kingdom.also brother you fail to complete your submission on Creflo Dollar ministries in the facts of what is the money used for??????
God bless you.

[arron]

i am not familier with world breakthroughchurches i think i have heard apreacher preach who was from there and there are one or two churches in my area.
i am pentecostal, i believe in the deliverance ministry as the bible teaches. i believe in THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST, I BELIEVE IN SPEAKING IN TONGUES AS THE EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST , i do not believe that you have to speak in tongues to be saved for we are saved by faith IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS. i believe in the gifts as talked about in corinthians. i am, i suppsose, a old fashioned pentecostal, i beleive in the kjv bible. if they believe any different then they are not the same pentecostal i am.

[seamaiden]

Jesus wasn't a pentacostal.

[seamaiden]

http://www.eagles-landing.org/weekly.htm

here are some sermons that deal with New Apostolic Reformation.

[arron]

i dont recall any one saying JESUS was. i said i was pentecostal and stated what i believe.JESUS saved me SANCTIFIED me BAPTISED ME IN HIS SPIRIT .

[seamaiden]

exactly...so why can't you say that instead of tacking on the penta-caste denomination like a badge of pride. never once did christ conform to sectanarism. Heck the testament speaks against it.

[seamaiden]

exactly...so why can't you say that instead of tacking on the penta-caste denomination like a badge of pride. never once did christ conform to sectanarism. Heck the new testament speaks against it.

[seamaiden]

exactly...so why can't you say that instead of tacking on the penta-caste denomination like a badge of pride. never once did christ conform to sectanarism. Heck the new testament speaks against it.

[arron]

sea i read your post .. by the way you didnt have to post so many times. i have always said on this thread that i was pentecostal ( not pentecaste) that is the same as one saying i am a baptist or metheodist.. or like you a ... whatever. if we know we are saved tht is what counts.

[seamaiden]

i know, i didnt mean to post some many times. so your saying just because I don't line myself up with a certain denomination then i am a heretic?

[seamaiden]

I do go to a church, a non-denominational one (not that it means anything because it doesnt) but my point is why all the sectarnism

Penta-caste (yes it is a caste system)
Espicapalian---eeehh
Methodist
baptist
etc etc etc. I don't understand all the reasons for the branches of protestantnism. or the catholic church for that matter (which a whole other thread entirely.)

my point is i guess i would love to see real true christians worship in spirit and in truth, whether that means in an all black church all white church, all asian church. And to see them, if they were to get together come and just mesh with grace and love of God.

Because--to quote one of my favorite speaker--"When we look back at this peanut of an earth, on our way to eternity, its not going to matter" its really not going to matter what you called yourself, but did you live for the one who called you? your going to be standing next to that baptist guy, your going be standing next to me--the "whatever"

so when you go out amongst the world, don't flaunt your pentacostal badge, flaunt your salvation. And if necessary use words. and pray that i do the same as well.

[arron]

sea... who said you were a heritic? i dint if i did i dont rememebr it. you would have to show what post i did it on. there are different people of all faiths (christian ) that i can worship with but whne it come to worshiping with tose who deny GOD JESUS CHRIST, then no i cant go along with that. i cant go along witht he fact that some one confesses to a priest or a pope. JESUS is the ONLY WAY. not a man. i feel that people can do better in the church of their choice and go and live likee they ought to. if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything

[arron]

sea... who said you were a heritic? i dint if i did i dont rememebr it. you would have to show what post i did it on. there are different people of all faiths (christian ) that i can worship with but whne it come to worshiping with tose who deny GOD JESUS CHRIST, then no i cant go along with that. i cant go along witht he fact that some one confesses to a priest or a pope. JESUS is the ONLY WAY. not a man. i feel that people can do better in the church of their choice and go and live likee they ought to. if you dont believe in something you will fall for anything

[arron]

sea why havent you answered? who said you were an heritic? if i said it where and when? i am pentecostal and will remain so.first of all though i am a saved person ready to go with JESUS when HE comes again,

[seamaiden]

...why havent i answered...because i am working on a paper and figuring out what the greek alphabet has to do with statistics.

as for me saying heretic, what i meant was that through your written tone it sounded like you implied that just because i didn't tout a denomination card i didnt have two brain cells to knock around...I forgive you.

[arron]

sea, fogive me???? i havent done anything to you to be forgiven of. it was you that said that i called you an heritic. of course i fogive you.

[seamaiden]

Ok. I don't understand why as christians we all worship the same Jesus christ, and read the same bible and tout denominations like perverted fraternities....but alas and alack.

have you listend to some of the sermons I've posted on other threads?

[anonymous505050]

Putting this on so I can read it in six months time when celebrating.

After years of being in the wilderness the children of Israel came to the river Jordan. On the other side lay the promise, the thing that they were waiting for. It was described as the land that flowed with milk and honey.

Unfortunately one would have thought that after all the stress of the wilderness, they could just go in and inhabit it. In the land however were the descendants of Anakin. They were a tribe of Giants that intimidated the people. There could be no breakthrough until Anak was defeated. Anak is really a demonic power that stands between us and our promise.

The reality of the battle though is that his warfare is one that attacks the mind. If God is fighting the battle on their behalf then Anak could not prevail against them. Those who perceived this reality went through, while those would could not died in the wilderness.

It is a most powerful testimony to be able to declare that ‘I fought Anak in the high place &amp; he could not prevail against me.’

[arron]

sea i havent touted any religion. i do and will stand for my religion when necessary. but i accept all who are christian weather they are my denom or not. i was in the baptist church and stll have people there that i love, i have some in most of the denom. i beleive that you have to stand for something or you will fall for anything. i am in a church that beleives as i do and we all get along and serve GOD but we do not fall out with someone just cause they are not like us. if they are a christian that is what counts.

[arron]

sea dont you undestand that by your being against any organized religion and talking about the ones who is the same as one who is in it and talks about your for not being? you are just as bad as those you talk about.

[yelirus]

We should all consider donating something to the Factnet people to keep sites like this up and running. I've given $50 and challenge all to give if they can. If you can give something post it and let's if we can raise the necessary funds.

[yelirus]

We should all consider donating something to the Factnet people to keep sites like this up and running. I've given $50 and challenge all to give if they can. If you can give something post it and let's if we can raise the necessary funds.

[joyful_in_jesus]

Blessings All, I would like to say something in our brother's behalf. I too am Pentecostal, but not because I adhere to a strict set of rules. or because I belong to a certain denomenation. I am Pentecostal, because I, like Jesus, have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in Tongues. Jesus was Pentecost. He fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, which was one of the four Feasts he fulfilled during his ministry on Earth, with only three remaining!YOO-HOO! My Dear Ones, if you have received Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you too are Pentecostal. Because you cannot seperate the too. They are one, three in one. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit(or Holy Ghost) as I like like to refer to Him. The word Pentecost means 50. It was 50 days after Jesus was resurrected from the dead that the day of Pentecost came and the disciples were gathered in the upper room and they were of one mind and one accord and the Holy Ghost descended upon their heads with cloven tongues of fire. They were all filled with dunamis power. That's what it means to be Pentecostal. It wasn't until the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, in the form of a dove, that he began his Miracles. So,being Pentecostal is a good thing, Jesus thought so, or He wouldn't have left his disciples the message to tarry in Jerusalem until they dad been endued with Power. Blessings in Christ

[joyful_in_jesus]

Blessings All, I would like to say something in our brother's behalf. I too am Pentecostal, but not because I adhere to a strict set of rules. or because I belong to a certain denomenation. I am Pentecostal, because I, like Jesus, have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in Tongues. Jesus was Pentecost. He fulfilled the Feast of Pentecost, which was one of the four Feasts he fulfilled during his ministry on Earth, with only three remaining!YOO-HOO! My Dear Ones, if you have received Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you too are Pentecostal. Because you cannot seperate the too. They are one, three in one. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit(or Holy Ghost) as I like like to refer to Him. The word Pentecost means 50. It was 50 days after Jesus was resurrected from the dead that the day of Pentecost came and the disciples were gathered in the upper room and they were of one mind and one accord and the Holy Ghost descended upon their heads with cloven tongues of fire. They were all filled with dunamis power. That's what it means to be Pentecostal. It wasn't until the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus, in the form of a dove, that he began his Miracles. So,being Pentecostal is a good thing, Jesus thought so, or He wouldn't have left his disciples the message to tarry in Jerusalem until they had been endued with Power. Blessings in Christ

[arron]

thanks joyful in jJESUS ... i am gald i learned of the pentecostal way. thank GOD

[anonymous505050]

'Prayer, the warfare expression of the believer in Christ.'

I decided to change the title as I am not so sure about all this apostolic stuff. Happy to be referred to as a Pentecostal or simply Christian to be honest.

Just sharing a reality for me in understanding the nature of Spiritual Warfare. When you are under attack by satanic forces the best offence/defence is prayer.

If they bring witch or wizard to put a hex on you (Balaam and Balack) there is power in prayer.

In Acts chapter 16 the bible shows that Paul and Silos were thrown in jail. I believe a bind could have been placed on them in the spirit to neutralize their ministry. This manifested naturally in them being thrown in prison. In v24 of Acts 16 we see that the jailer put them in the inner dungeon and fastened their feet with chains. His sole purpose was that the bind was strong enough so they could not get out.

V25 shows the power of prayer to break every yoke and every stronghold. They say God is never late but it appears He is never early either. Although it may seem like victory is passing us by, He has the power to appear at the 11th hour with a Supernatural Miracle. That’s why He is WORTHY of PRAISE!

[anonymous505050]

Sometimes God lets us get into trouble soely that we may see how GREAT HE is to Deliver us. Those who call on HIM HE has promised to SAVE!

In the middle of the Storm He would be found walking on the water. When Peter stepped out in Fatith Jesus called him out. After a While the bible said that Peter bagan to Sink.

Bless God that the same God who Calls US is always there to save before we go under. He will never leave us or forsake us! Its just a test of our Faith which after we go through we enter into His abundance.

He who BEGAN a GOOD work in us is FAITHFUL to compelete it! If God said we can have it, no demon power can stop us from receiving it!

[anonymous505050]

The best thing about walking with God is when you learn to trust him He can change what looks like certain defeat to your most powerful victory.

The red sea was meant to be their dead end. Calvary was meant to be Jesus' defeat. By what can only be described as supernatual power, the place of destruction becomes the place of a new begining. The place where we are pressed and death seems iminent is the place where Life comes forth.

After we do the will of the Lord we indeed receive the promise.

[arron]

anonymos... i say halelujah praise THE LORD HE IS A MIGHTY GOD. HE has worked for me so many times and i do praise HIM for it.

[anonymous505050]

Yes I hear you. I am stuck on this theme it seems but when you find yourself in an impossible situation God loves to rush in with a solution. It would appear that while the 'enemy' is the one that puts us there to destroy us, God allows it to purify our faith. I am reminded by all the great speakers that He always has a way out.

In 2nd Chronicles ch 20 King Jehoshapat found himself sourrounded by powerful enemies. There was no natural way out and destruction was inevitable. In V 12 he admitted that he did not know what to do (had no solution).

As with Paul and Silos the answer was in praise and worship. As they worshiped the God of the ages there enemies were drawn into battles with other tribes and were slain. When Jehoshapat and his men got there they could only find dead bodies for the Lord had gone before them.

The part I like the most is the rewards for trusting God. The bible records that among the dead was gold and precious metals. It took them 3 days to gather it all. The same can be seen when the children of Israel left Egypt. They left with great spoils.

What does all of this have to do with dangerous cults? A lot.

Again praise works and worship breaks all strongholds.

[arron]

anonymous505050... RIGHT NOW I AM IN A N IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION AS YOU SAID THERE IS A MINISTER THAT I HARDLY KNOW ( HE HAS BEEN TO OUR CHURCH TWICE) THAT IS TALKING ABOUT ME AND OUR CHURCH. he called ayoung girl that goes to our church who had recently gotten saved. (she confessed and belived in her heart ) well she went to his church one nght recently as she could not get to ours, well when he found out she went to our church he callled her down in front of the church and told her she was going to hell he told her that our church was wrong he called it by name and that i was wrong he called me by name. she got so discourged that she said sshe did not want to go to church at all. she is however coming back to our church she knew he was wrong. this girl has not been taught the right way at all she came to our church and heard the gospel and came to JESUS and was saved. the man has upset me very much with his wild accusation . i would not even know him if i passed him on the street so how could he know me. i was praying about it last night and THE LORD TOLD ME JUST OT HOLD ON TO HIM so i am going on for JESUS.

[renwingmind]

"if you have received Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you too are Pentecostal"

"Just accept Christ into your heart through prayer and he'll receive you. It doesn't matter what church you belong to or if you ever do good works. You'll be born again at the moment you receive Christ. He's at the door knocking. You don't even have to change bad habits, just trust Christ as Savior. God loves you and forgives you unconditionally. Anyone out there can be saved if they ... Accept Christ, now! Let us pray for Christ to now come into your heart."hummmm LOOK OUT SATAN! I come in the name of JESUS through his blood to present the truth.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

No one in the Bible ever prayed for their initial salvation. They did however believe, repent, confess Jesus and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins. The sinners prayer is a an innovation that thwarts God's plan of salvation. First they replaced believers baptism by immersion with infant baptism by sprinkling. Second they later replaced baptism altogether with the "sinners prayer" so that baptism is no longer even part of the plan of salvation. If you prayed the "sinners prayer" for your salvation, you are still lost in your sins, because it is not what God said to do.

Modern religion, with it’s ever-changing concepts, has left confusion in the minds of many people concerning true repentance. What does the Bible really say? Don’t be satisfied with theories and ideas of men, when you can know the truth about this important subject.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God, giving a true history of the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of mankind, and containing a correct prophecy of the ages to come regarding the heavens and the earth and the destiny of man. Furthermore, there is no salvation outside of that which is contained within its pages.

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2Ti 3:16
I might be a new member here but Im not alone. My mind is renewed my heart is new my spirit is new,because with an broken heart I sought the Lord and with an contrite spirit he heard my cry and did not turn me away,but took out that stony heart and put in me a new spirit that cause me to obey his word and keep his judgment and do them.Eze 36:26 Eze 36:27 Thats why I say I'm not alone. I'm not here to compromise. I am here to speak to a whosoever people.

[renwingmind]

First of all I like to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the Baptism in Jesus Name and filling me with the gift of the Holy Ghost Acts 2:38

I am an Pentecostal Apostolic saint
Here is the differents (with HOLINESS)

Those who profess Holiness believe and teach that members must live clean moral sanctified lives to please God. This belief encompasses no smoking, drinking, cursing, or any type of sexual sins.

Those who profess to be Pentecostals believe in Holiness in addition to receiving the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.

Those who profess to be apostolics believe and teach Holiness, having the Pentecostal experience of receiving the Holy Ghost in addition to being baptized in water in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, as was also executed on the Day of Pentecost.

There are many who profess Holiness who do not believe in receiving the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues nor being baptized in water in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are many who call themselves Pentecostals that do not believe in being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, even though they believe in Holiness.

The Apostolics believe in Holiness, the Pentecostal experience of the baptism of the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, and the baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ.
The gift of the Holy Spirit has become the topic of much discussion in our day. Men and women of all persuasions and from all walks of life have become interested enough to search for greater understanding of this phenomenal spiritual experience. Capturing headlines, dominating the content of many religious periodicals, and generally creating excitement, this canon of apostolic faith deserves a sincere appraisal.

[renwingmind]

The Facts

The Holy Spirit is God. "God is a Spirit" (John 4:24). "There is . . . one Spirit" (Ephesians 4:4). To become a subject in the kingdom of God, Jesus said a person must be "born again," or "born of water and of the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). The birth of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit are synonymous terms. The Apostle Peter understood this truth as he spoke. to the multitude in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). This experience was received by the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), the Samaritans (Acts 8:15-17), and the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48), plainly indicating that it was meant for all people, regardless of race, creed, color, or station in life. The new birth, consisting of water and Spirit, was never set forth as being optional or unessential. "Ye must be born again" are the words of Jesus in John 3:7. Until a person is born of the Spirit, he cannot be called a "son" of God.

The Privilege

But why concentrate only on the absoluteness of the command? It is a blessed privilege to experience a release of spirit, finding freedom of soul and expression in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no other experience similar to it.

"Incomparable" is the only adequate description of this filling. The transition is to an entirely new realm and way of life. A complete transformation takes place. The soul has an empty place "in the shape of God" that nothing else will fit or satisfy. The baptism of the Spirit completely satisfies every longing of the soul. In this experience is fulfillment.

[renwingmind]

The Evidence

There are two major evidences of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The initial, outward evidence is speaking with tongues, which means speaking miraculously in languages the speaker does not know.

Speaking with other tongues has been connected with Spirit baptism since the beginning of the church age. On the birthday of the New Testament church, the Day of Pentecost after Christ's ascension, approximately 120 disciples of Christ were inundated by the Spirit of God and "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:1-4). The household of an Italian centurion received the same spiritual experience, which the Jewish Christian onlookers readily identified, "for they heard them speak with tongues" (Acts 10:44-48). In Acts 19:1-6, a group of John the Baptist's disciples heard about the Holy Ghost from the Apostle Paul; they too were filled with the Spirit, "and they spake with tongues."

We cannot adequately express with our own words the ecstasy experienced in the baptism of the Spirit. Only through unaccustomed words of heavenly coherence can we utter what our souls would express.

There are perhaps several other reasons why God chose speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of this spiritual baptism. It is an objective, external evidence that recipients and onlookers can both identify with certainty (Acts 10:46). It is a uniform evidence-all the disciples on Pentecost, all the household of Cornelius, and all the believers in Ephesus spoke in tongues. "So is everyone that is born of the Spirit" are the words of Jesus in His description of this spiritual new birth (John 3:8). Speaking in tongues also indicates the complete control of the Spirit over our human wills. The tongue is the most unruly member of the body (James 3:8), and its being tamed by God is evidence of His complete control.

Further evidence of the Spirit's abiding presence in our lives is the fruit of the Spirit, which Paul mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

[renwingmind]

The Promise

Was the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the apostles or early disciples only? Is it today available to only a select few who are "superspiritual"? The obvious answer to these questions is no.

The Apostle Peter made it very plain in his message on the Day of Pentecost that the gift of the Holy Ghost is for everyone: "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39). (See Luke 11:13.) Our faith, obedience, and submission to the Lord Jesus and His gospel qualify us for this most joyous of all experiences. (See Acts 5:32; 11:15-17.) As Isaiah 12:3 states, "With joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation."

Seek Him today, for "he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters" (Isaiah 55:1). This means you!

[renwingmind]

POST NUMBER 7

There Is More To Being
Saved Than Easy Believism

You cannot afford to make a mistake about Salvation. Your soul is too valuable, the lake of fire is too final and eternity is too long to be wrong.

Satan's master plan is to make people believe they are saved when in reality they are still lost. His plan is sly, crafty and deceptive. His timing is just perfect. The name of his counterfeit is called EASY BELIEVISM. Approximately ninety five percent of all Protestant churches now accept it and most evangelical tract companies print it as being gospel truth. It has swept upon our land at a time when the cry of the masses is, "We like it easy and comfortable". A person can become a millionaire overnight by inventing a gadget that will make a hard job easy or an easy job easier. You can see this principle revealed in the success of perma-press clothes, micro-wave ovens, electric door openers, automatic dishwashers and electric knives. Everyone is crying, "Make it easy brother".

Satan designed his plan to include parts of the Bible which would add reverence and credibility to his counterfeit and at the same time twist the truths and change the words to produce a subtle half-truth which is more dangerous than an outright lie. only the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH will save a man or woman from sin.

Is a person saved by simply and only believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior? Many churches now teach that a person is ready to meet the Lord in the second coming simply because they raised their hand and vocalized the phrase "I do now accept Christ as my personal Savior". This plan is simple, easy, soothing, mild, and effortless, but OH ... So FALSE! Ministers will be judged by God on the grounds of criminal negligence who allow their church members to continue in their sinful habits and at the same time believe they are gloriously saved. Saved from W H A T???

[renwingmind]

here is more to being saved than EASY BELIEVISM -please notice Acts 16:31 very closely. And they said "... thou shalt be (future tense) saved..." The Apostle Paul used the future tense, shalt be, which places the act or event in the future. Notice, he did not say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou art saved", like so many do today. It takes more to being saved than saying "I believe". James 2:14 teaches that faith alone can not save. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can Faith Save Him?. James 2:20 declares, "Faith without works is dead". You do not have faith if you do not have works. Faith without works is dead. It can not save you if it is alone. Works are proof of faith. If works prove faith, then the absence of works prove unbelief. Yes, faith is necessary to be saved, but it takes more than just faith.

Was Simon the Sorcerer saved in Acts 8:13 by easy believism? we quote "then Simon himself believed also..." the answer to this question is "NO" Simon was not saved by only believing. We know this to be a fact from Apostle Peter's stinging rebuke in Acts 8:20-21. Listen to what he said,"... but Peter said unto him, thy money perish with thee, because thou has thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou has neither part nor lot in this matter, for thy heart is not right in the sight of God". He believed but was still unsaved.

Even Simon Peter himself believed and made a confession of faith in Matt. 16:16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Was Peter saved according to the New Testament plan of salvation by his confession of faith? The Bible teaches he was not. In Luke 22:32 Jesus revealed Peter's spiritual condition by saying, "... when thou art converted (future tense) strengthen thy brethren". Mark 14:71 lets us know Peter was still in an unconverted condition of lying and cursing. Revelation 21:8 teaches us that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.

What about the thief on the cross? In Luke 23:43 we read, "And Jesus said unto him... Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". How was the thief saved without obeying the New Birth Plan of Salvation? The answer is, the thief actually lived in the Old Testament dispensation and did not have access to the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as we know it today. This is made clear in John 7:39, "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified". The Baptism of the Holy Ghost or the New Testament inheritance could not be given until the testator died. Hebrews 9:16-17. The thief was not saved according to the New Testament Plan of Salvation which is found in Acts 2:38.

[renwingmind]

What about Romans 10:9? "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart... thou SHALT be saved". Again please notice that the Apostle uses the future tense. shalt be, placing salvation in the future. The Apostle Paul realized that no man can truly confess Christ without the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3 teaches, "No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost". Besides all of this, he is not addressing sinners, but a church of saved individuals. We know this because he addressed them as brethren in 1 Corinthians 12:1.

Where the disciples saved under the New Testament Plan of Salvation in John 6:66-69 when they made their confession of faith? Let us read, "We believe and are sure, that thou art that Christ..." Easy Believism must answer "yes, they were saved here". Let us, however, notice what Jesus said to these same disciples in Matthew 18:1-3. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus... and Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Except ye (Disciples) be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven". If the disciples could not be saved by Easy Believism, then neither can you or I.

Are the Devils saved? Easy Believism must answer in the affirmative. Why? Because James 2:19 teaches "The devils also believe..." Let us now examine the scripture to see if devils will be saved. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire..." Also notice 2 Peter 2:4, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned,, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment". NO! Devils are not saved by only believing.

Acts 10:1-6 records that Cornelius, the centurion, was a very religious and devout man; who feared God, gave much alms and prayed to God always. Was he saved by doing all of this? After doing all of this the angle spoke and told him to send for Peter in Acts 11:14 "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved". In Acts 26:27-29 we read that King Agrippa believed. "I know that thou believest..." King Agrippa still remained unsaved however.

[renwingmind]

What is the New Testament Plan Of Salvation? Only Belief? Accept Christ? Join a Church? Pay dues every week? NO! Acts 2:38 is where the true plan is found. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost". Repentance, Baptism in Jesus Name, and the experience of the Holy Ghost were the keys to the kingdom spoken about in Matthew 16:19. They are the fulfillment of the birth of the WATER and of the SPIRIT in John 3:5, and the resurrection power of the church as recorded in Romans 8:11. As there was a death, burial and resurrection in the life of Jesus; so repentance is our death to sin, Baptism in Jesus name is our burial, and receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is our resurrection (To walk in newness of life). The church at Jerusalem believed this plan in Acts 2:38. The Church at Samaria believed in Repentance, Baptism in Jesus Name, and receiving of the Holy Ghost in Acts 8:12,16,22. The church at Caesarea also affirmed this truth in Acts 10:44-48. The church at Ephesus obeyed Paul's preaching and were baptized in Jesus Name and received the Holy Ghost, Acts 19:5-6. As you can see, believing in Jesus is necessary, but after they believed, these people in the book of Acts went on to REPENT; be BAPTIZED in JESUS NAME, and received the HOLY GHOST (Which comes with the evidence of SPEAKING IN TONGUES as the SPIRIT gives the utterance - Acts 2:4).

Many today will say that you cannot be saved by works, therefore you are not saved by being baptized in water or being baptized in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues. I submit that they are SO WRONG. Baptism is something that is done to you. All that you have to do is to receive it. The same is true with receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the speaking in tongues. It is a gift! It is done to you. All you must do is receive. Are you doing a work if someone gives you a gift? Absolutely not! If this is a work then the very act of accepting Jesus as your Savior or the repenting of your sins could also then be considered works.

I would also tell you that there are many good men, charismatic men, even Godly men preaching the gospel. Many are led by the spirit of God, but not filled with the spirit of God. Rejecting the whole of God's truth because of self study, or theological or denominational beliefs. The most dangerous lie there is one that is wrapped in so much truth that you can't see the lie that will send you to hell. First, pray that God will reveal the truth to you regarding his plan for salvation. Then, study God's word for yourself. It there in black and white. Not a mystery, yet there is none so blind as them that will not see.

You can disagree on many things in the bible, much of which we'll know by and by. But there can be no mistake in the plan of salvation. To be saved you must first believe, then repent (turn away from) of your sins, be baptized by submersion in water in the name of Jesus, be baptized in the holy spirit as evidenced by the speaking in other tongues.

ETERNITY IS TOO LONG TO BE WRONG

[anonymous505050]

Aron, I had to get pass the 5 or 6 postings that separates your last contribution. One thing I have learned is to be wary of those who seem preoccupied with knocking other ministries in order that theirs be the 'only ones.'

I remember a some years ago a leader of a church I attended could find very little benefit in the major ministries shown on TBN. Whether the speaker was Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, TD Jakes or whoever, they were always criticized. This created a scenario where the average person would not even bother to listen to these ministers as they were all seen as uninspired.

I cannot promote any ministry but I do believe we should have a certain level of maturity and independence to judge the word for ourselves. I have benefited greatly from the teaching of each of the ministers I have mentioned above as well as numerous others on TBN. Joyce Myer, Joel Osteen to name a few. God has given them each something for the body as He has given to every person He has called to Minister.

The ministries I have mentioned are all very large and subjected to enormous public scrutiny due to their high profile. The point is God is building His Church and will deal with the ‘wolves’ in His time.

On your impossible situation, Creflo Dollar shared that once he got word that his ministry owed $30million in TV bills and was basically bankrupt. He shared that He had to turn to God as no man could help. As he prayed and worshiped through the pain, gradually resources came to cover all the bills. His message on that day was turning impossible situations around by trusting God. Hope this helps.



(Message edited by anonymous505050 on November 11, 2006)

[seamaiden]

The pentacostol way...thats hilarious. Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

denominationalism sucks...

[arron]

well seamaiden you go on and suck somewhere as for me and my house we will stand for JESUS CHRIST and the pentecostal way which HE fully taught. i have been pentecostal for years and will remain that way no matter what anyone who comes up with some other "way" says. i have CLEARLY stated many times that i am saved by THE BLOOD OF JESUS, FAITH IN THAT BLOOD. i am not saved by my "denomanation" as you put it. but i am pentecostal for that is my belief of the word of GOD. but i am saved first of all

[seamaiden]

Question for everyone

Do you believe that you have to speak in tongues to be a Christian?

Does the bible actually say that you will go to hell if you don't have this manifestation of the spirit?

[seamaiden]

Whilst I am knocking arron and his consistent pentacostal rant, i wasn't doing it in the correct spirit. So I would like to apologize and ask for forgivness. As a christian our speech may not always be about grace, but should be seasoned WITH grace.



moving on,charismatics are so concerned w/ the gifts of the Spirit. I want to be known for the fruits of the Spirit.

I sometimes found myself forcing the whole speaking in tongue thing and realized that it wasnt of God. God gave his gift of the Holy Spirit and how he chooses to express himself is something that is up to God and we should just yield in surrendor. I find it hard to believe that to put God in a box and to insinuate that "YOU HAVE TO SPEAK IN TONGUES AND BE A PENTACOSTAL TO EVEN HAVE A PRAYER OF GETTING INTO HEAVEN"

To strap God down arron and say "but i am pentecostal for that is my belief of the word of GOD" is promoting an arrogance that is devastating. You can't serve God and man. You can't serve your creator and the creation that is this denomination. Your actions that I can see on this message board clearly show where your salvation and your actions need to reconciled one to another.

Now you will undoubtdly come and beat the dead horse and say (in all caps) "I AM SAVED BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS, HE ALONE SAVES, and I CHOOSE THE PENTACOSTAL WAY BECAUSE OF THIS THAT AND THE THIRD." but jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father accept through him. This post isn't only for you but for the baptist, methodist, lutheran and whatever else is out there.

*gets off soapbox and returns back to homework*

[arron]

in our church we do not insist that you speak in tongeus. we believe that JESUS and JESUS alone is THE ONE that saves. you should find out about the pentecostal church before you talk about it and you should not condmn all because of one that you saw . i dont condmn all other churches and neither should you. see you should GET OFF THE SOAP BOX yourself and relise that there are other christian that do not believe as you do. but they hold on to their faith evan as i hold on to mine. i have told you that JESUS alone does the saving. i do liove right and i follow JESUS.

[seamaiden]

I am not condemning churches, i am saying denominationalism is asinine.

[arron]

i am of the pentecostal faith. you are what ever you are but if a group of people believe ethe same thing even though they are not A DENOM. it amounts to the same thing. if you are condemning denoms. you are also condemning churches,

[seamaiden]

to tout your faith under a name of a denomination and hide behind induces seperatism.

you are of the "pentecostal faith" even though You've made us all well aware of that. But when jesus came, it preached the gospel, and the gospel was the gospel, plain and simple. He didnt wrap it up in a Methodist flag, Pentecostal flag, baptist flag et. al.

I believe thats what made him so curious. He wrapped the gospel in love--and who is love Arron? who? God. Not some man-made pew warming concotion.

I am not condemning churches, I am condemning whats become of churches through denominationalism...get it?


maybe its my shortsitetedness(sp?) by christ did not tout pentacostalism--he touted love and God is love.

[seamaiden]

We can be Christians without being members of any denomination by taking Christ as our creed and the Scriptures as our only guide. If we will simply become Christians (Acts 2:37-38; 8:12, 35-39), serve, and worship God the way the early disciples did (Acts 2:41-42), we will be a congregation, or church of Christ for which He prayed, died, and directs us to be in the Scriptures.

[arron]

have i said any where that you had to be amember of a denom? no i havent. you just dont want to be a church member that is what it boils down to. also in your above post.. you said but when JESUS ( except you spelled HIS NAME with a little "J") came it, now JESUS is not an it HE IS A HE. you said HE didnt wrap it in a methodist flag pentcostal falg baptist flag et.al. you also said GOD was LOVE and i beleive that GOD is LOVE . I DONT FALL OUT WITH OTHER DEMNOMS. but neither do
i expect others to down my denom or beleisf what ever you desire to call them. you are much worse than ohters in that you hide behind your own sayings and expect every one else to hop to like you do or else. the bible speaks of you sea madien where it says that some are like "the raging of the sea" where it waskes up all kind of mire. thats what i think of when i think of you as i see no christian love period

[seamaiden]

Ok...question? Do you attend a church that has a denomination listed in front of its title?

are you a pentacostalist?


I am a member of the body of Christ. I have taken a hiatus from peoples actions in the church. Does that mean I don't want to be a part of a local church, no absolutely not, and for you to insinuate such a thing is complete bull. you know me, but you don't know me.


( except you spelled HIS NAME with a little "J") ---what the heck is that supposed to mean?

I feel as if you trying to say that just because I don't do that means I am not loving God enough. capitalizing his name does measure my love for him, which is something, if you took the time to halt your insinuations--that I take to heart and strive live. with all my heart soul mind a strength

[seamaiden]

you've basically said that, if your not part of the pentacostal system of thinking then you are not apart of the body.


I am not bashing the body...christ took that when he took on mans sin. I am saying that a house divided will not stand. I am not against debating bible scripture and wrestling with the spirit to come a conclusion about something read in the bible. but thats why I am Glad that Israel means "God Prevails"

so forgive me if I try to think and question and seek and not just randomly side with a denominations point of view on matters of the Spirit, life and eternity.

"Search out your own salvation with fear and Trembling."

[arron]

where did i say that if you are not a part of the pentecostal system you ar not apart of the body? also JESUS IS GOD and HIS NAME SHOULD BE HELD IN REVERENCE AND NOT PUT IN THE SAME place as mens no one spells each others name with a little first letter yes my chuch has church of GOD on the board out side the church. now you can be nothing or you can be baptist or whatever but it is still the same you have a set of beliefs and that in itself makes you a denom. weather you like it or not. yes i am pentecostal. i am a memeber of the body of CHRIST. i do not take a hiattes from church for i love being with the people of GOD. sure some do things say things but we must all remember like the WORD says we all have done things in the past time of our lives that were not pleaseing to GOD but we dont have to keep on doing them when we find we are wrong ask GODS forgivness. we must forgive people, which obvisly is hard to do sometime but we cant hold anything in our hearts and stay away from church and for the people because of it no one has asked you , at least i havent to change your beliefs or to join our church. in fact we dont ask any one to do so we leave that open for them to decide. your problem is some one hurt or made you mad in church so you take it out on all especially it seemd the pentecostals our church is not devided, i am speaking of the local one i attend. and as you said GOD DOES PREVAIL we are winners because of CHRIST AND for no other reason

[seamaiden]

While I see your point about the whole capitolizing of the Jesus'name...i cant help but wonder why your spazzing out about it here. The messageboard is not the same as a monniker(sp?) put out in the view of much more people that come here. my 2 pesos.

And maybe you are on a different path toward christ than me. I didn't say you had to take a hiatus. Far from it. I said I am doing it. For so long while I was within the church congregation, I was as one song put it

"Surrounded by philosophies to satisfy my surface." so "I had to go for something deeper at the risk of seeking purpose" since my hiatus began at around i believe september of this year, i have had my good times and I have had my bad. I have stayed connected to friends who are in christ, since "where 2 or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst."

As for church, I have asked God to bring to a awesome body of believers who are not weighted down by what man declare a church should be...a church whose fire is not burned up when small or big trials come. I have hooked up with the International House of Prayer in my city. (forgive me if i don't disclose a specific one). So until God leads me to a church that is like a family and not people showing up, to check there spiritual list off, or showing up because its the respectable thing to do, or showing up just because the praise and worship is hopping and just because the choir is poppin do...I will continue to inquire of the Lord as his temple. to fast and pray and seek his face.

[arron]

so do it and quit putting people down who belive in going to a church regardless what kind it is. we are a church family there is love in our church and i dont know of any who come just to satisfy a emotional desire to feel good. our fire is not burned up because we hae a trial or not and believe me we have had a few firey trials to contend with but we ( the church ) held on and we made it through CHRIST JESUS. we are in THE TEMPLE of THE LORD and we ask and we receive what HE has for us

[anonymous505050]

Before this forum closes it may be useful to focus on the major problems of cults. Cults imprison people. They lock you into a make believe world that many find difficult to escape. It is a form of slavery.

To be honest the world is entirely governed by spiritual forces and laws. Those who understand this are usually the ones who can rise above circumstances. If there is a problem the solution is found by going to the root.

To break free from a mind controlling cult one needs to adapt the same principles that is needed to break free from any bondage. Being enslaved in a cult is a curse and brings a curse into ones life. To break out from this or a financial curse one as to attack the spirit behind the thing.

I have seen first hand that to break a financial curse there is a powerful spiritual law that works amazingly. There is a body of material debating its merits but It is something that God has to reveal to us in a personal way.

For most of my Christian life I was thought about tithing. I never gave it much thought and felt it was simply a way for the pastor to get his new Mercedes. Now with proper revelation I understand its power. Done with a joyful heart and willing sprit it is one of the most powerful things I have encountered in the area of finances and wealth creation.

Some argue that it is Moasic law and therefore outdated. The truth is long before Moses existed Abraham was tithing. His grandson Jacob was tithing and made a vow to God that anything God gave him he would give a tenth to Him. They were both 2 of the wealthiest men of their generation.

While people are not under a 'law' to tithe it works powerfully in breaking financial curses. It activates God's invisible system of supply. I said 18 months ago I would never tithe now I am the biggest advocate of this divine principle.

Reading the biography of Andrew Carnegie and John D Rockefeller you realise they were faithful tithers. Whether someone is looking at their tight family finances or business, the answer is to start tithing. It must be to a house of God where one receives spiritual nourishment.

Like in everything Satan has counterfeited this divine principle so that pop stars and business leaders can tithe to their various cults and get 'blessed.' They will give millions to scientology or the kabala cult and the 'Gods' of those things blesses them.

The true and living God blesses the tither. Someone who will faithfully give at least a 10th of their income to the work of the Lord. As faith builds the percentage to give can increase. I know of those who have gone up to tithing 30%. I can guarantee anyone that living on 70% of what God can provide is far superior to living of 100% of what we do ourselves.

If you are in a financial bind start tithing and supporting the work of the Lord. Take care of His business and He will faithfully take care of yours. Some say you can start with 1% and as your faith builds increase the percentage as you feel led.

I will never accept these tv ministers that put guilt on people. This should be a personal thing that God reveals to you. It works. If you have a choice between paying your mortgage and tithing, then tithe first. God will miraculously send what you need for your bills. He gives seed to the sower.

http://www.hwa.org.sg/help/tithing.pdf


This link has a free book that was written by the same author of the chicken soup for the soul series. His name is Mark Victor Hansen and there are some powerful truths in this material. If the link does not work type ‘miracle of tithing’ on google and you should get a link to a free pdf version of the book.

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on June 16, 2007)

[anonymous505050]

Continued from above.

To me tithing says, God you are first in my Life. Money is not my idol and I am entrusting you supply my needs. I will support the work of spreading the gospel of Jesus with my finances and trust you to secure my financial future. When you partner with God like this there is no curse that will destroy you financially!

[anonymous505050]

http://www.markvictorhansen.com/


Thought I should mention who the author is of the live changing material.

[eternaljazzmusic]

Different people are called to specifics, and one of such people is Dr Noel Woodroofe, sent to mature the saints not to preach evangelical maessages. A lt of people are doing that already. "EVANGELICAL.

[faithonfire]

I have been involved in C-WBN for about a year. I have 35 years of pastoral experience, A doctorate in Ministry (Dmin), attending Fuller Seminary in California and I have met personally with Dr. Woodroffe, Scott Webster and Steve Shultz the names mentioned throughout this thread. It seems to me that a lot of the things said about C-WBN are grossly taken out of context. A person who does not believe in modern day apostles would of course be offended and very disapproving of most of what Dr. Woodroffe says or does. If you disregard cultural perspectives that exist in the 3rd world nations that can different greatly from American culture many of the postions presented by C-WBN can be upseting. If you allow the humanity of a person to overshadow their greater spiritual value you can be very mistrusting and critical. Every church or religious group is looked at as having flaws. Some are off and some are on depending your perspective and presuppositions. The people I have taked to in the C-WBN have shared about the radical transformations the C-WBN has gone through over the past few years. Changes for the good as they have been affected by different cultural perspectives and experienced being misunderstood by many. I can say that had I been in around in the early days of the C-WBN I may not have appreciated them as much as I do now. I was a part of a group that may have caused me to be critical and sensitive to some of the things expressed and the way they were articulated. But my own issues would have played a part in it. Here are the things I have found to bless me about C-WBN:
1. My global awareness has greatly influenced. I understand that the "American Way" of church is not the only way and may not even be the right way but it was the only way for me until C-WBN. I have learned to appreciate that peoples expressions and understandings of serving God globaly are even more different than the diversity we experience in America and as long as it doesn't conflict with the word...it is good.
2. Apostolic perspective is not just a title of a man. It is a "sent" mentality. Jesus said go and teach all nations. Missionaries have done it for years. But instead of converting them to Baptist, Catholic or some other denomination C-WBN develops relationship with men and women of God within those nations and challenges them to open their minds and broaden their current thinking. So they say things like "Forget everything you've been taught before and hear this..." just to say it's time for a paradigm shift. The model you had before obvious didn't work or else you wouldn't even be considering this.
3.God is still revealing Himself through willing vessels. God spoke through the prophets and apostles and gave them great insight and revelation who would dare to say God can not do it now and He can't do it through a Noel Woodroffe! I heard him say from his own mouth that he is not the only one with truth and revelation. He encouraged the pastor seek their "specialty" and "unique expression" through their particular churches.

[faithonfire]

This is not a cult! The man is constantly teaching on the life and return of Jesus and the church doing His work until "The Finish." He teaches on spiritual and moral purity. He sees himself as the primary apostolic source to the churches who will listen to his voice but does not equate himself to Christ in any way but more like John the Baptist. I heard him say that he expects financial support from the churches in the Congress but will not ask for a certain percentage from anyone. And I have never been asked for a penny nor do I know any one who has. When he says people should leave the Congress or will be put out it is in the context of is if this is not for you, then find something else. Why be a part of something you do believe in or trust. There is no pressure to get you in or keep you in the C-WBN. They don't rule you or your church. I just returned from an annual conference in Trinidad that was open, full of praise and worship, geniune fellowship and the presense of God that had me in tears. About 2500 people from all walks of life and even churches and pastors who were non-members of Congress worshipped God freely. There were Penticostal, fundalmentalist, nondenominationalist...I mean every expression of God's people you could think can together and it was beautiful. I see the message of C-WBN as being infiltrate the earth with the presence of God be putting true people of God in every aspect of the earth realm. Not a take over the world mentality! We can change corrupt systems and organization if God's people get involved globally. What is wrong with that? The caution is...we must teach these people truth about the word of God so they don't misrepresent when they get in these postions. I can only see Satan or the Anti-Christ trying to oppose that. So maybe they need to tweak the presentation a little. Maybe their structure is still underdevelopment. Maybe the player are still not perfect in their ways but I have met first hand a group of sincere people who love God. They are doing no more brainwashing than most churches do who indoctrinate new Christians as to spiritual thinking verses carnal thinking..."Transforming by the renewing of their minds." These are my experiences so far! I have more to learn but I came in with an open, mature and prayerful spirit. And because I know the leader are human rather than criticize their flaws I pray for them that if the do get off in any way that God will bring correction so we can win this whole world for Christ!

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). faithonfire:

I know little or nothing of this group, but . . . having said that I can say factually all of pentecostalism is a cult. The religion was invented by a child molesting homosexual.

Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist

[faithonfire]

Mrs Sandy Bryant,
I don't know how connected pentecostalism with my post. Secondly I just wonder, how can you make a statement like that "factually" when you don't know every pentecostal church in the world? Pentecostalism has many branches and forms of expression. I highly suggest you reconsider making statements that are so broad.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). faithonfire:

Quoting: "I highly suggest you reconsider making statements that are so broad."
End quote.

Talk about absurd 'statement', I just finished bathing. For some strange reason, I appeared to be male. Maybe that is why my birth certificate says boy? I am not a broad.

You are somewhat right. The child molesting homosexual Charles Fox Parham did give pentecostalism its two distinctives. Scandal by committing sodomy with little boys and division by virtue of his being booted from pentecostalism's only pulpit.

In its first one-hundred-years of existence, pentecostalism has invented 1200 religions (Readers Digest 1997). During the same time period, 1300 of its most elite ministers have been found guilty of gross immortally by a jury of their peers.

So you are right, in a way, every thirty days pentecostalism invents a whole new religion. About every twenty-eight-days, an elite pentecostal minister goes to prision.

All of pentecostalism is a cult, period. It is a cult because it is abberrant. By the by, pentecostalism was invented by Charles Fox Parham. Finis Jennings Dake wrote pentecostalism's Bible while in prison for taking a sixteen-year-old girl across state lines for immortal purposes.

Your Ever Humble Servant,
Rev. Sandy Bryant DD.
Counter-cult Apologist

[faithonfire]

I think you mean "immoral purposes" but I wasn't there so I don't know. Well, I would still be careful about labeling. I have read several of you remarks about pentecostalism in other threads. My issue is not pentecostalism. My issue is the way you include "all." One of the things I've learned in my short 50 years of living is not to generalize. There just may be some people out there who simply have read of the account of the day of pentecost in the bible and know nothing about Parham but are sincerely trying to serve the Lord based on their present understanding of the word. I believe if a person accepts Jesus as Savior and the son of God, geniunely repents for sin, tries to live according to the word of God and loves God with all the heart, mind and soul and loves their neighbor as themselves but they speak in tongues...I would not call them a cult. That fits no example of cult I know or have seen. I don't consider myself a pentecostal but I think your judgement of God's people is dangerous. I think we do better to love and pray for all of God's people. Some need a better understanding of the word and others may really be wrong but no matter they need our love not our labeling and condemnation.

[the_apostolic_truth_ministries]

M(r)(s). faithonfire:

I am fairly sertain you got what I meant. As I have said in the past, nearly every post of mine includes incomplete sentences or misspellings. I like to give my fans something to talk about.

Cult: Noun
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator *health cults*
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion.

Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary.

As you can see Webster's includes everyone in the definition of cult. Apologists, generally, reduce the number slightly. Most agree that a religious cult holds an aberrant doctrine.

Everyone caught up in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism has the same right and capability that you or I possess. You have the right to own and read a Bible. What a shame it is that you didn't. How do I know you didn't?

Quoting: ". . . a person accepts Jesus as Savior and the son of God . . .."
End quote.

That is a false doctrine. Easy believerism, the Roman Road plan of salvation, baptism = regeneration . . . all are examples of false doctrines.

ps. By the by, when St. Paul judged the man in Corinthians, did he sin?

[arron]

well i see the liar and unbeliever tatm is still on the warpath like the athesist and other unbelievers do. he is a liar and a person who has been hurt by some fantical pentecostal person ( and there are fanatics in every church ) and is taking it out on every pentecostal denomanation there is they think they know everything but know nothing

[rojo1]

Hi

I am new here and been reading this thread with interest. CWBN has made its presence felt in my city. Over the last two years I have been given material (teaching notes) that they teach. In particular, material pertaining to Apostolic Authority (i.e. unquestioning obedience to Noel Woodroffe as Apostle), rank and submission (i.e. submission to a hierarchical model of leadership, discouragement of questioning or challenging of CWBN teachings (in the light of scripture)).

The CWBN teaching material is not made publicly available and I was asked to look at it because of deep concerns by people who had left churches who had "crossed over" (as they term it) into CWBN.

Having carefully (and prayerfully) studied the material I have also become deeply concerned at the misuse of scripture, authoritarian stance and secretive nature of CWBN. The main areas of concern are its:

1) Elitism. CWBN appears interested only in promoting CWBN.
2) Unquestioning submission to an unbiblical "ranking" system within the church. This is extreme to the point (and I quote from notes by Scott Webster) that: "Egalitarian prohibits us from offering our true selves as either a leader or a follower, and therefore it hinders the Kingdom of God. It is anti-Christ." (Egalitarian is defined (in the dictionary) as the belief "in the equality of all people".)
3) Secretive nature of its teachings. They are not presented openly to the wider church. CWBN presents one face to the world and another to those within its ranks.
4) Worrying tendency to redefine biblical language and give it a unique CWBN meaning. Hence the word "grace" is now called "technology" in CWBN speak. They invent words such as "wateredness". This means that when conversing with CWBN members one is at a distinct disadvantage as one is not on a level playing field. (This is a well known tactic of cults to redefine biblical terms and develop its own technical speak. I am not suggesting CWBN is a cult but that it is increasingly exhibiting cult like qualities).
5) It carries a distinct lack of love. People have expressed real pain at family members and friends who have changed (for the worse) since becoming involved with CWBN. They have become "cold" towards the needs of others (because they are taught "broken people can't build"), they have an arrogance and superior attitude because they have "new knowledge and revelation."
6) People who have left said they felt (because they were taught that "your church is only as strong as its weakest link") that they would be the downfall of the church because of their own weaknesses and failures.
7) Because of this it promotes secret sin (I know of one instance where a person, because they felt unable to confess their weaknesses, fell into serious sin and had to leave).
8) Anyone in the church who expresses disagreement or concern is "cut off" completely and dropped from communication by the church.

I could go on, but the above highlights major concerns about CWBN. }

[anonymous505050]

Rojo1 your posting is as close to the truth as can be described.

I totally agree that any organisation that promotes eliteness where members believe they have to be 'above' every weakness will end up with a lot of secret sin.

Many people will just hide things to fit in. Why take a risk and tell someone you have a weakness in a certain area when you can be subsequently be viewed as inferior.

To be honest these are good warning signs that all is not well. The bible teaches that God uses ordinary people to do extra ordinary things. None of them are perfect and the bible goes at greats pains to show their human failings. This is not to condone their behaviour but to show us that they are men of like passions. Whether it be the father of faith being faithless in having a child with his maid or a king murdering a soldier and stealing his wife. They were forgiven and still used by God.

My experience tells me that there is usually more sin in these churches than an average ministry. Promiscuity, financial fraud, adultery are as common in churches with the qualities you described as in any other place. It us just hidden however as we know all that is done in secret inevitably comes to light.

[rojo1]

Hi 505050

You're right, we have God's treasure in earthen vessels so that all the glory goes to him. This does not mean we condone sin, but it recognises the reality that we have to continually throw of the sin which so easily entangles and run with perserverance the race set before us.

For me, the hallmark of a genuine work of God is love. Jesus declared that it would be the identifying mark by which the world would know that we belong to him. This love (ultimately the love of God in us) is not only towards brothers but towards enemies and those who oppose us. It is this very thing which is so worryingly and manifestly absent in CWBN churches.

Ultimately, while CWBN has an orthodox view of Christ and salvation through faith alone, it in effect nullifies the freedom which Christ has bought by imposing its authoritarian stance on and over the body of Christ. Hence it promises a form of godliness but denies its power (the grace and mercy of God) as a means of achieving it.

It will all end in tears because it undermines the simple truth of the gospel. I have also recently been informed that CWBN teach that the scriptures are spiritual milk (necessary for salvation) but that "present truth" i.e. CWBN Apostolic revelation is the "strong meat" necessary in the last days to accomplish God's plan for the church (which in CWBN theology means bringing the world under the dominion of the church (via the Apostles) before Jesus can return).

[faithonfire]

Wow, I just don't get it guys. The change in words in Congress-WBN is to create language that helps to convey a closer meaning of the intent. Because of the different cultures and mindset in this global environment it helps bring clarity and oness in our understanding. This is simular to the reason we look at the Greek or Hebrew to better explain the meaning of a word. Dr. Woodroffe is a former college professor, they create new phrases and terms commonly. Nothing unusual or ungodly about that is there? There is no "Unquestionable Loyalty" to Dr. Woodroffe. He is a man and capable of error like any other. We pray that God continues to expand his wisdom and divine anointing. Should he err we will do like we should do for anyone and pray for him as a brother...restoring him in the spirit of meekness. We are all encouraged to ask questions at anytime. We make suggestions and have open healthy conversations about all aspects of life. But I think I'm wasting time trying to defend. It occurs to me that Christian have more "friendly fire" incidents than any other faith. We attack and pull down anything we don't fully understand and fear. My friends I believe every faith can be challenged and questioned. Thus the practice of apologetics became popular. The leader's ways and methods are subject to so many things like cultures and the contemporary times. From a distance even the best church or organization can have many different negative and positive looks much like the proverb of the elephant and the different perspectives helps us to understand. I urge you as a brother of Christ to love more and criticize less. We may have difference of opinions and ways that anyone can find fault in as we see in so many of these threads and post we read. So many ungly and unfair statements from people who disagree and differ in thoughts and opinions but I see so little discussion on how we can learn to disagree in love! Yes, it's all about unconditional love. You are hearing this from a free thinking member of Congress-WBN. Full of love and the desire to serve God with my whole heart. I read the word, pray and seek the face of God for divine revelation and correct interpretation that represent the heart of God and without a denominational slant that might be unhealthy. I feel no pressure from anyone to be a part of this group. I apply the terms I hear when they are applicable and appropriate for the situation. Having met the leader personally, I accept Dr. Woodroffe as the leader of the organization led by God to promote the advancement of the kingdom and lead in the Spirit of truth as he understands it. I don't see him as flawless nor as a authoritarian. I see him as committed to what he believes God has shown him. He is a joy to be with and very down to earth. He never promotes himself and easy to talk with. You said love is missing in WBN church but I invite you to go to my website at www.faithonfirechurch.com (http://www.faithonfirechurch.com) and you will see what may possibly be the biggest promotion of love you've ever seen in a church's doctrine. Also every word of "present truth I have been exposed to in WBN has simply been the word of God (scripture). Nothing has been twisted or tanted that I can see (but of course I only have one Master's degree and one Doctorate from seminary so I could be wrong). But of course someone will disagree with me which is okay!

[faithonfire]

Love covers a multitude of faults!

[rojo1]

Hi Faithonfire.

I appreciate your gentle response and call to love. Please appreciate it is not a lack of love which prompted my response to CWBN.

My observations of CWBN are based on the teaching notes (in particular) Scott Webster's teaching on rank and intimacy and through counselling couples who have been wounded, confused and hurt by a local church which has become part of CWBN. In effect, if you do not agree to the New Reformation teaching you are completely dropped and "cut off". One couple who had concerns about the teaching were told that an email had been sent by the church leader to all church members stating their concerns. All church contact with them was dropped and they were, in effect, considered persona non grata.

I am pleased faithonfire that this is not your experience of CWBN. I have never met Noel Woodroffe nor would I question his character or integrity. However, teachings which come down from CWBN leadership do raise concerns regarding their scriptural interpretation and application. I have raised these with the local CWBN church in my area and have had no response.

[rojo1]

I am aware that the current information I have is partial and that, in fairness to CWBN, I would like to have a fuller understanding of their teaching. Is there anywhere online, I could read more about their beliefs?

For example, there are hints in their material that they hold to a view that the Church is called to subdue "all other kingdoms" of this world to the Kingdom of God. This has been termed "Kingdom Now" theology. Some of the tenants of this belief system are:

That through the fall of Adam and Eve God lost dominion over the earth and that God has been looking for a covenant people who will take dominion back from Satan.

When in 1 Cor 15:25-26 it says: "For he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" Christ should be interpreted here as a reference to the Body of Christ (Church under new apostles and prophets)

Those who hold to Kingdom Theology assume that the Church, under submission to the latter day apostles and prophets, is that man child (Revelation 12:1-5: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars....And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron."), and that it has the responsibility to put down all rebellion and establish righteousness. The many-membered man child must take control of the earth before Jesus can return.

To accomplish the great task of taking dominion over a rebellious world, the Church must have supernatural help not only from God, but from angels and from the "great cloud of witnesses" (the dead in Christ) who have preceded us. A unity between their spirits and our spirits will create a communications link by which revelations will be conveyed that will guide the Church in its mission. The apostles and prophets especially will have contact into the spirit realm through appearances of Jesus, angels, and departed saints.

Essentially then, Kingdom Theology sees the Second Coming of Jesus in two stages: first through the flesh of the believers (and in particular the flesh of today's apostles and prophets), and then in person to take over the Kingdom handed to Him by those who have been victorious (the "overcomers"). In some circles it is believed that the overcomers will have become immortal - they will have attained what is called "resurrection life."

Whether immortal or not, it is generally agreed in Kingdom Theology that the overcomers must purge the earth of all evil influences. "Evildoers" must be converted or they will be punished and/or "destroyed from off the face of the earth." "Evildoers" have been variously described as drug pushers, murderers, child molesters, thieves, prostitutes, and other such "scum" that Jesus died for. It will interest the reader to learn, however, that for many who teach Kingdom Theology, the term "evildoer" applies to anyone who refuses to submit to God's authority (the latter day apostles and prophets). Those who do submit will be sealed with the "mark of God" in their foreheads, and will escape the coming judgment.

That God is mobilising the Church for takeover by breaking the enemy in a single spot (Finance) and that there will be a great wealth transfer from the world to the church.

I would be most grateful for a response to the above from a CWBN perspective.

Many thanks in advance.

[friendly_follower]

Rojo1,

Your asssessment of first hand experience and teachings of the CWBN is the most thorough and accurate that I've been witness to so far. I too have had personal experiences with the CWBN church that is located in Marietta, GA in which Scott Webster ministers. I have given a personal account of my experiences there in the other thread on this forum about the CWBN, so you can read it there if you're interested. I appreciate your input as the more warnings there are against this organization, the more aware people can be about the unbiblical teachings. Just go to the world breakthrough network thread and search for my username, you might find some things you've never known before about this organization that are pretty disturbing.

[rojo1]

Thanks.

I'll do that.

[friendly_follower]

Also, just to reinforce a key point that you brought up in your well thought out list; Once inside their ranks you are taught things that are contradictory to what is actually represented by the CWBN. I remember one sermon where Scott Webster was teaching about what things were right and wrong in the church. Among the wrong things was heirarchial church structure and leadership. As you can clearly see though, the CWBN is very much heirarchial in leadership and structure, yet they teach that heirarchy is ungodly/unbiblical. There are many other examples like this to show that the congress does not practice what it teaches. Maybe they have been brainwashed to be ignorant to the fact that they are in violation of their own teachings, or they just feel that these teachings only apply to the world outside of the congress.

Another thing I can clearly recollect at this point is that the girl who I fell in love with within the congress was instructed by her father to cut off communication with everyone else outside of the embassy, and she did without question. A part of the subtle coercion evident within the ranks is that mere suggestions by "superiors" are recognized as unquestionable commands by the followers.

I have personally developed a deep hatred against the evil within this organization. Don't get me wrong, this hatred is not against the people whom I love dearly, but rather against the corruption which at it's core deforms the human mind, heart, and soul.

[anonymous505050]

I suspect the breaking from that relationship may have been the best thing that could have happened to you. You may look back on it in 3 years and thank God.

best wishes.

[friendly_follower]

505050, I'm sure you're right, but I still can't help but feel pain just knowing that she's involved in this false-christian organization. I care about her very, very much. She has been put under strict rules, authority, and influence, all because she feels this is how to please God... But she's naive to the fact that she is just pleasing men and their purposes instead, it really does tear me up inside.

Also, Rojo1

Just know that the stronger the evidence and questions against the CWBN and it's cultic tendencies, the less likely you will get a response. Particularly when it comes to fundamental biblical principles that conflict with their doctrine and practices, you will never get answers, and if you do so happen to get a response, rarely will it ever actually answer the question. This is a key component of the "dodgy-ness" that alot of people speak of when referring to the CWBN. I highly doubt anyone will answer your questions or concerns about the CWBN as long as it is their validity, integrity, leadership, practices, and doctrine that are being critically questioned. They will however, be more than happy to speak to you if you are willing to blindly submit to their propaganda and leadership.

Also, I can understand why you aren't quick to judge Noel Woodroffe's integrity and character, but just know that the entire CWBN and it's leadership structure and doctrine are a reflection of everything this man has developed in his head. They are the fruits of his ministry, and you know what Jesus says about good trees and good fruit and bad trees and bad fruit. The greatest thing is that all this can be simply held up to the ultimate plumbline which will reveal what is good and what is bad fruit.

(Message edited by Friendly_Follower on August 22, 2007)

[anonymous505050]

When you come out of an abusive relationship the pain and anger seems to be greater in the intial short term. In some way you built up a tolerance level to put up with things while you were in that relationship. When you leave it is like all the hurt and anger that was suppressed for some time comes out all at once.

It is a normal thing. I knew a few people who were once involved in what they termed a cult. The very mention of the organisation would send them into a 4 letter tirade of rage. I could not understand it until years later I had my experience.

The best healer is time. The best revenge is to just move on with your life and become a success in whatever you put your hands to do. This will anoy them and make them realise that there is a life and world outside of their fantasy land.

I laugh as they run umpteen checks to validate that you are actually making it whitout them. You don't need the covering of any man or Group. God through Jesus Christ is able to give you all the covering you will ever need. You will be fine. Just turn that experience over to God. He can take any mess and make into a message.

[rojo1]

Hi friendly follower,

Thanks for the comments. I'll bear them very much in mind.

Also 505050, I think that is very wise advice.

The tragedy with all this is that people and churches caught up in this stuff actually think this is what God requires of them. Only a genuine and powerful revelation from God can break through the "reality distortion field" their teaching induces in the minds of its adherents.

Also I was wondering (I can't find evidence) whether there is any link between C-WBN and the New Apostolic Reformation (C. Peter Wagner and co). There seems to be shared characteristics and theology but there is no mention on any Wagner material of C-WBN and Noel Woodroffe and vice versa.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

[anonymous505050]

I unable to make any comments on that. Following on to friendly follower, it is important to channel the anger into something productive.

Some people have a warped sense of their own self importance and are clearly unfit for any power or influence. It is no surprise to me that God is in fact reducing their influence substantially, despite their claims.

I knew of one girl who was part of an organisation/church where the leader seemed to have so much power and influence. He would threaten that if she left he would ensure she never got a job etc. She eventually found out when she left that the world was much larger than the one presented to her in church and that many people did not hold a high opinion of the leader.

Like in any controlling environment, be it a church or oppressive government, their strength is to suppress the truth and keep people in a state of ignorance.

You will hear that anyone that disagrees with them, is 'cursed, not of God etc and their family will pay.' Non of these things are true but that's what the poor followers are led to believe. It is sad but to be fair people end up with the leadership they deserve. You cannot blame anyone if you stay in a deceptive and abusive environment. You can leave if you really want to.

I have written on these links over the last year in the hope of helping the many people who I know are totally suppressed in mind controlling environments. They think they are free but are nothing but slaves in many ways.

[friendly_follower]

Oh I agree completely. I have been consciously channeling those emotions into finding the real truth that simply lies in scripture, and also doing everything I can to expose this organization for what they really are on these boards. Seeing as I've been inside the ranks, I can reveal the unmasked truth to those who seek it.

And yes, fear is their biggest weapon among hefty titles that minimalize their accountability. "Oh he's a very wise apostle who recieves direct revelation from God, therefore you can't question him..." This is the mentality that serves to entrap, and is another reason why no praise or credit should go to any man, but rather God who works through men. Don't worship the tools, but praise the mastersmith that works them. A great thing is that you can always just use the Bible to see what lines up to be able to tell which tools are actually being used by God and which merely claim to be whom subsequently reinforce it with mounds of wordy self empowerment and lofty titles that give them the illusion of greatness. But I say what purpose does the title of Apostle or Prophet serve anymore other than to elevate the percieved rank/status of a religious man? It's no different than people who hold the pope in unquestionable reverence.

[anonymous505050]

I get daily email messages in inbox from Joel Osteen Ministries. Today's message is below. Easier to read than to do but these are the things that really test us. Very useful for those leaving bad relationships/associations.


Release the Debt

Today's Scripture

“Do not say, ‘I’ll do to him as he has done to me; I’ll pay that man back for what he did’” (Proverbs 24:29).

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

Is there someone in your life who has wronged you? Maybe a family member didn’t treat you right, or a boss was unfair. The Bible tells us that we need to release and forgive others so God can forgive us. If we harbor unforgiveness or bitterness towards anyone, God cannot forgive us. He cannot even hear our prayers. Forgiveness starts with a decision. It doesn’t mean you excuse another person’s behavior; it only means that you are releasing the debt they owe you. Forgiveness puts God in charge of that situation instead of you. A true sign that you have forgiven is that when you think about the other person, or see them somewhere, you are at peace. The Bible says that we should also pray for those who may be against us. Pray that God will change that person’s heart. As you release the debt of others, God will release you, and you will walk in freedom and peace in every area of your life.

A Prayer for Today

Father in Heaven, I humbly come to You and ask You to show me any unforgiveness that may be in my heart. I forgive and release the debt of others so that You can forgive me. I bless Your Holy Name today. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.

[read the word]

i wont say i know so much about congress wbn and i dont think anyone has the right to judge or critisize something they hardly know anything about.However, i believe all those people that have defended it so passionately must also have the same passion to answer questions concerning it...without getting so dramatic about it. just the other day i was talking to a friend who supports it and who believes its values and principals quite strongly and she enlightened me a little on what she had just learnt from a recent sermon of Dr Noel woodroffe.Heres what she said: "when Jesus was talking about separating the sheep and the goat,He was not only referring to those two but He was also referring to the brethren...so in actual fact there is the sheep,goat and the brethren"..i was a little bit shocked because as i recall there is no mention of the brethren in that part of scripture,she instantly corrected me by saying.."it is mentioned,once"...so then one whole parable is interpreted wrongly just because of one word,which really brings out the truth???
We have alot of Christian denominations,world wide and truth is all believe that their doctrines are based on the bible but when it comes right down to it,some of these world wide churches base everything on one single verse from the bible...and then they claim that all else is not necessary.The bible does not contradict itself,most of the scriptures may seem as if they do conflict but should one really study the word they would realize that the whole bible is in perfect harmony,every single word of it...but of course because it has only one author.Bringing us back to the question i had asked earlier,in reference to that parable by which many kingdom believers believe that there is another class of people, called the "brethren"..do we then disregard all other parables concerning the same thing Jesus was referring to when He spoke that parable?what about the parable of the wheat and weed...i dont see any mention of brethren.My friend goes on further to say that the brethren are the chosen leaders that will rule with Jesus in heaven and the sheep are the common people,the ones who did good in their own ordinary lives,at first i thought it was unfair but then it doesn't end there.she goes on to say that these people "the sheep" refers to anyone who helps advance the Kingdom of God..and they dont even have to be Christians!,as long as they help someone out eg: provide transport to the next IAE conference,they will be saved and they dont even have to believe in Christ!!!...not believe in Jesus and go to heaven just for helping advance the Kingdom.Thats rather ridiculous considering the fact that if it weren't for Christ we would all be doomed...so if anyone does good they can go to heaven and they dont even have to take Jesus as their saviour?!..Doesn't the bible say a different thing,everyone has to take Jesus as their personal saviour and then journey onto perfection,why is Jesus cut out of the picture for non-believers?i believe everyone deserves to learn about the loving man that willingly died for all our sins..why shouldn't a hindu(for example) believe in Him too? and then get into heaven just for helping someone out? Isn't that relying on works...the bible clearly says that "faith without works is dead"...if we then accomplish work,we're still not excused,we have to faith too.
Now viewing the whole matter,if someone does get into heaven without believing Jesus but just because of what he did..imagine the day when all will be gathered in the presence of God for worship and this soul looks upon God,wont he question...hey i didn't sign up for this,who's this Guy?,where's my god?,why should i worship Him?,i dont know Him.
To this also my friend had an answer,she said "thats how merciful God is"...you cant always take God's love for granted...there will come the day when He will question each and everyone one of us about what we did with our lives..why?because obviously God wont be merciful for long!The Israelites suffered because they disobeyed Him numerous times,yes God is merciful but only for a certain time.If everyone goes to heaven for helping advance the Kingdom,we might as well take half of the worlds population with us!...Jesus Himself said "No one comes to the Father but by Me",why are we putting Him out of the picture for people who are still lost?
And how come congress wbn followers are considered the brethren?what about all the rest of the faithful believers out there that have been carrying out God's word?,whats so special about you people that you consider us the so called "sheep" and yourselves the "brethren" chosen to lead with Jesus? it is written "God does not show personal favouritism".We all believe that God's will is for all His children to become Christlike,i believe all Christian denominations are working on getting their members Christlike,internally and externally..yet i cant say much bout them fully concentrating on both,yet still why is it considered "not right" just because they have different ways to go about it,besides the congress wbn way?
Furthermore,i have also noticed how everytime Dr Noel woodroffe gives a sermon,everyone already involved in congress wbn and its sectors believe immediately that it is the whole truth,the new truth..without questioning whatsoever.And when they open the word they see exactly that...y'know if we intend to look upon the bible for answers,we must have a childlike mind.We should look upon it with a searching heart not a heart seeking to confirm what it has just heard.The bible is a powerful thing and if it is read or studied by someone who has already made up their mind then its no use for the Spirit to really speak to them through it.Why is Dr Noel woodroffe considerd the ordained one too?,yes he has had quite a number of powerful sermons but that doesn't place him in a position where we dont have to question what he preaches.."we all have to work out our OWN salvation" and Dr Noel woodroffe is not gonna be asked for the things you believe in.I believe his a man that speaks his mind and thats a good thing...for him,because he has a clear conscience..what about the rest of you?are you just gonna follow without really sitting down and searching the scriptures diligently bout the issue at hand?
There are many beliefs coming up these days and most of which are very convincing,in the words of Jesus "if it were possible they would convince even the elect" and Thank God for them because they are the signs of Jesus' second coming but we must not be swayed so easily...if everyone is trying to save themselves by changing churches or taking up a new belief..they need not,just look to Jesus and read His word,diligently with a searching heart.