Congress WBN Elijah Centre

[uelsimon (uelsimon)]

Everything you wanted to know about Elijah Centre & Congress WBN (fromerly called World Breakthrough Network) is available on their websites.

Elijah Centre: http://www.elijahcentre.org/
Congress WBN: http://www.congresswbn.org/

Check it out... leave some comments. I'll return, happy to address many of the questions which seem to have been posted in some older threads.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Please explain the following quote taken from the Elijah Centre website and how you think it is Biblical to organize a global "economic takeover" and the "end of globalizaton":

"The Church must operate inside the world of commerce. Kingdom businesses are required for the fulfillment of this end. Like Daniel, we must study to become valid and competent participators in the world system. Our preparation is not for economic collapse, but for economic takeover. As Dr Woodroffe said many years ago, the Lord is mobilizing to break the enemy in one spot. The end of globalization then will be the ultimate triumph of the church." -
http://elijahcentre.org/perspectives/perspective.asp?id=743&pid=2900

Please explain this next quote. Who exactly is it referring to as "winning"? The Church? How do you define who exactly the Church is and who has the authority to decide who is part of this Church? Who is the enemy?

"We are competing in a system that has one objective - to make more money. In this system weak ones are stamped out. We must find strategies to allow increasing levels of growth without destruction. The key understanding necessary to attain this is that we employ unorthodox or un-Babylonian strategy and still win because we used God’s strategy."
http://elijahcentre.org/perspectives/perspective.asp?id=743&pid=2900

Please explain this next quote. It would seem from this quote that the war you want to win, as stated above, is not just with the "unchurched", but with traditional church. Therefore, if you seek global economic takeover, does this mean you seek to takeover finances of both the unsaved and those you believe to be "dead religious" churches who do not agree with your views? What do you think gives you the authority to make judgments and determinations like this?

"Restoration of Prophets and Apostles (Eph 4:11; 2:20)
The Prophetic refers to the eyes and ears of God, mouth of God.

Words relating to the Prophetic include creative, building, manifestation, purposeful pioneering, distribution and reengineering of the economy of God, strong revelation for word-based lifestyle, wisdom and knowledge for practical demonstration of God.

A radical renovation of the mentalities within the Church Rom. 12:2; 2 Cor 10:4-6
The word of God must bring about a transformation of the minds of the saints. Rom. 12:2

Movement away from dead religious positions to a Kingdom lifestyle
Luke 3:7-14 – John here breaks down his reformation message into practical adjustments to daily living. Religion is a life based on meaningless routine and ritual. Kingdom lifestyle is the message of the Kingdom coming to a place of ease of expression in the lifestyle of the believer.

The waging of the final warfare against the Spirit of Religion
Matt. 23:3-4, 25-28; 5-12 - There must be the movement away from a religious response to the Word of God to one that emanates from a genuine heart response." -
http://elijahcentre.org/foundationteachings/teaching.asp?id=3292&pid=2400

Please explain this quote from the Congress WBN website which claims that your movement has the right to "restructure" mentalities. How does this differ from mind control? What exactly do you believe gives your movement this authority-because you proclaim your leader and movement to be apostolic? What if other self-proclaimed apostolic movements have conflicting views? In that case, which movement has the ultimate authority to "restructure" mentalities?

"The apostolic mandate is international in scope and restructuring in intent. It provides an apostolic church with the right and the authority to renovate the mentality of nations by moving forward in the rightness of its own just cause."-
http://congresswbn.org/resources/apostolicqa.asp#APOSTOLIC_REFORMATION

Finally, please explain this next quote about corporate ownership and its relation to apostolic leadership structure. Who has the final say on how corporately-owned items and money is used - the "core apostle" - Noel Woodruffe and his leadership team? You say that it is necessary to recognize rank and position. Does this mean that someone who gives over their money or possessions to the corporate apostolic cause ceases to have a voice over how money is spent or possessions are used or must they recognize their lower rank and defer to the leadership even if they have different convictions? If their is disagreement over said usage, does the final say belong to Noel and the leaders, because of their position and rank?:

"Corporate Ownership
Corporate ownership implies the systematic removal of individualistic mindsets to bring greater coherence to the corporate advance. In Congress WBN, individualism, self-promotion and the elevation of personal advance above the good of the entire community is anathema. Our corporate movement must be towards functional oneness.

Authentic Transmission
This operational value assumes that the core intent of all Sectors of the Congress is the advance of the corporate mission of the Congress empowered by primary apostolic grace. There must be no distortion of the corporate mission created by personal agendas.

Strategic relational proximity to the core apostolic grace enables relevant productivity in the advance of the corporate mission of the Congress. Authentic transmission is dependent on submission, death to self and the recognition of ranking and measure."-
http://www.congresswbn.org/about/corevalues.asp

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

I'm hoping you are going to try to address these questions....they are important, especially since Congress WBN is so intent on forcing a global impact in so many areas.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Uelsimon - Guess you decided not to do what you offered -to address these questions. Too bad...

[pearl_owner (pearl_owner)]

Well, I'm not Uelsimon, but I'll take this one. Ontheroad writes,

"Please explain the following quote taken from the Elijah Centre website and how you think it is Biblical to organize a global "economic takeover" and the "end of globalizaton":

"The Church must operate inside the world of commerce. Kingdom businesses are required for the fulfillment of this end. Like Daniel, we must study to become valid and competent participators in the world system. Our preparation is not for economic collapse, but for economic takeover. As Dr Woodroffe said many years ago, the Lord is mobilizing to break the enemy in one spot. The end of globalization then will be the ultimate triumph of the church." -

-------------------

The key part of the quote is 'our preparation is not for economic collapse, but economic takeover'.

We, as the Church, or a kingdom community are not preparing to survive in a world of economic collapse, but are preparing to model, offer, and implement economic strategies that will give solutions to a collapsing, or collapsed world economic system.

Economic systems built without clear kingdom/biblical principles are destined to collapse, giving way to and enabling kingdom-value based systems to replace them.

Ontheroad asked, 'How you think it is biblical to organize a global economic takeover and the end of globalization?'

It is clearly biblical when one interprets the prophetic passages of the Bible as applicable to the Church in history. Clearly such passages as Isaiah 2.1-4, and Isaiah 60 show that the end result of the 'house of the Lord' in the earth is that nations (which necessarily includes economic and political systems) come to learn and be taught from the Church.

The 'economic takeover' is not a hostile takeover, but a taking over by virtue of possessing economic systems that can do what the worldly systems could not do. Kingdom economic systems are not centered in greed, but biblical principles.

Models of this are seen in Daniel and Joseph to name only two. Both of them were highly involved IN the political and economic systems of their 'world', leading to great glory given to God and His rule in the earth.

The end of globalization will be seen in the fulfillment of the prophetic truth found in the words, 'The glory of the Lord shall fill all the earth.'

An Owner of Pearls

[franklin (franklin)]

The above drivel is just an old failed system dressed up in new clothes. Communism! Dictatorial and unChristian.

[godchild (godchild)]

Franklin, I agree with you. The Bible clearly states "You cannot serve God and mammon". One only has to look at history to see the fall of nations that have lived by this creed. The last statement, "transmission is dependant on submission, death to self and the recognition of rank and measure" should put up a warning flag to anyone who wants to follow this man made, satan inspired crap. 'As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord, and Him only.'

[franklin (franklin)]

Amen!

[franklin (franklin)]

"Authentic Transmission
This operational value assumes that the core intent of all Sectors of the Congress is the advance of the corporate mission of the Congress empowered by primary apostolic grace. There must be no distortion of the corporate mission created by personal agendas.

"Strategic relational proximity to the core apostolic grace enables relevant productivity in the advance of the corporate mission of the Congress. Authentic transmission is dependent on submission, death to self and the recognition of ranking and measure."-

These people are masters at Cultspeak. Sounds Orwellian (1984). THIS IS A DANGEROUS CULT! GET OUT!

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Check this statement out, too, from the WBN Congress website: - "The apostolic mandate is international in scope and restructuring in intent. It provides an apostolic church with the right and the authority to renovate the mentality of nations by moving forward in the rightness of its own just cause."

They claim to have the "right and authority" to removate the mentality of nations??? This sounds like they claim to have the right to conduct thought reform or mind control to their beliefs, according to their "own just cause". This is control and domination by force. And they claim to have the right to do it. That is NOT God's way.

[franklin (franklin)]

These people are scary. They are like a communist cell or a nazi bundcamp. God help us against their attacks. Are we dealing with a brainwashed, religious, radical/terrorist group? Certainly brainwashed. Definitely radical. Pseudo religious. With their pseudo-intellectual rhetoric, that defies logic, they can rationalize anything. Possibly violence.

Since 9/11 we have have been shocked to our senses
as to how much religious fanaticism is a deadly threat to civilization.

Josef Goebels said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it." Elijah Center definitely spews political propaganda through twisted scripture. Nowhere do you read about peaceful democratic political or economic change. That's called voting, participating in government. Not a coup d'tat revolution by religious kooks.

The fascists, nazis and communists of past history always started out as small kooky groups many didn't pay attention to until it was too late.

I am all 100% for religious freedom. But not for dangerous cults committing crimes behind the guise of that freedom.

There are many dangerous cults in the world. This is definitely sounds like one of the worst. Not only do they want to use mind control on a misled, brainwashed following in an isolated area, they are scheming for world economic and political domination ruled by their apostle/fuhrer.

This is a principality of darkness. I stand against it!

[curious_george (curious_george)]

I've heard about this group on this site and others, about how dangerous they are. I've looked at their website. It's a little different but nothing scary. What do they do??? Do they take peoples money or their homes??? What makes them the worst cult??

[righteous (righteous)]

No we do not take away people's money or homes. Alot of your fears are because you do not understand what we are about. Personally I believe that pearl_owner did a good job of answering the questions. We are not serving money. We are serving God. What he was talking about is a godly hatred for the systems of the world that are based on greed and that oppress humans. God is concerned about the condition of human lives.

[franklin (franklin)]

This talk of the corporate is communism. Who prospers under communism? The leaders. "All animals are equal, except the pigs. The pigs are more equal."

Why don't you 'fess up? You guys are communists.
An enslaving and failed corrupt system. If you do not realize this, then you are communist dupes.

Capitalism and a republic form of government are the most inline systems closest to God's plan. Free will, abundance and freedom.

Why should my endeavors go to feeding and clothing your fat and lazy ass unless it is of my own charitable free will?

Wake up! You're in a communist cult. GET OUT!

[curious_george (curious_george)]

But what makes them communist, Franklin?? Seriously without suppositions and assumptions. Without things that you have heard 2nd and 3rd hand. Ilook at most of the postings on these sites and people talk about ministries and the people in them any way they seem fit. It's just not right unless you have specific instances of the things which you are acusing them. I saw their site. I don't agree with everything they have to say but why do you say it is a comminist cult???

[franklin (franklin)]

Read the above posts and read their websites as I have. If you don't see it, then I will explain it to you.

[curious_george (curious_george)]

I guess I'm just must be gullible or blind or whatever. I just dont see the danger or communism. I have looked at their site a few times and as I stated in a previous post, they are a little "different" but not scary. Please, Franklin, fill me in on some details.

[franklin (franklin)]

I will. They have changed the sites. The rhetoric has toned down since I last checked them.

A sublimial theme to their world takeover scheme is an economic revolution. How would a group eradicate the present economic system of capitalism. Revolution. Russia 1917. China 1949. Cuba 1959. What is the alternative to capitalism?Communism.

"Our preparation is not for economic collapse, but for economic takeover."

"As Dr Woodroffe said many years ago, the Lord is mobilizing to break the enemy in one spot. The end of globalization then will be the ultimate triumph of the church."

They refer to globalization as the enemy. Without free trade (globalization) Trinidad would starve and wither.

"Corporate Ownership
Corporate ownership implies the systematic removal of individualistic mindsets to bring greater coherence to the corporate advance. In Congress WBN, individualism, self-promotion and the elevation of personal advance above the good of the entire community is anathema. Our corporate movement must be towards functional oneness."

Destruction of individual mindsets is totalitarian, cultic, violation of civil rights, rights to private property and DANGEROUS!

"We, as the Church, or a kingdom community are not preparing to survive in a world of economic collapse, but are preparing to model, offer, and implement economic strategies that will give solutions to a collapsing, or collapsed world economic system."

The only economic collapse that will occur is when the mindless drones in this cult wake up and run from this cult taking their private possessions with them. The their cult leader will feel a collapse in his private bank account.

I see it. Why can't you? Are you a member of this cult?

This is not of Christ. This is of greed and meglomania! This is a cult! This is satanic!

[curious_george (curious_george)]

To begin, Franklin. I am not part of WBN or any other organization. I'm just somebody trying to get information on what's out there.
You obviously have some personal issues against this group. You have provided nothing but your slanted interpretation of some quotes from their website. I asked you to tell me WHAT THEY HAVE DONE. What greed are you talking about? If you are a member of the body of Christ, the church that is world wide, should desire the mind of Christ. Doesn't Christ have one purpose?? Doesn't Isaiah CH 2 tell us how nations will stream to the house of the LORD wanting us to teach them our ways?? Would that not include proper finacial structures? Interesting, I saw nothing on the WBN site asking for donations. I have never seen them on TV or having huge "conferences". You see globalization from an American standpoint. That means its great to you (although it's gonna eventually tear us down; look out for CHINA). But what about the 3rd world?? Russia, China, & Cuba were nations that had physical boundries and had to use guns and bombs to expand them. They used force to take power. WBN is not a nation. Are they stockpiling weapons somewhere?? Hasn't communism always been anti religious?? I am asking all these questions of you Franklin because as I look at this board and many others I see people such as you label different groups as cults and say how dangerous they are with out proof. SHOW ME THE MONEY!! In other words you have proven nothing to anyone but yourself. You may not like or agree with what they are saying, and that's fine. I don't agree with much of what they are saying. But because you, in your infinite wisdom don't agree, that doesn't make them dangerous.

[franklin (franklin)]

I have no personal issues against this group in particular. Though I'm certain they have big personal issues against me by now. My family was ripped apart by a cult, preaching the same kind of satanic garbage as this one does.

Do you have any personal experience with a cult?

Cults are in general communistic. They want all your money. All your labors. All your property. Cults want to dictate every aspect of an individual's life. The way you think. The way you speak.

"In Congress WBN, individualism, self-promotion and the elevation of personal advance above the good of the entire community is anathema. Our corporate movement must be towards functional oneness."

"Interesting, I saw nothing on the WBN site asking for donations."

Once they suck you in they'll get it all.

"look out for CHINA"

Do you shop at Kmart? I do not. I try not to do anything to contribute to or perpetuate a communist/slave system.

My wisdom is finite, like yours. But I have experience with cults that sends up red flags on this one. Are you Christian?

[righteous (righteous)]

No you do not replace capitalism with communism. You replace it with the kingdom of God. We are not communist.

Let us talk about capitalism. Are you saying that it is the best economic system this world could have? All it does is make one small set of people get richer and richer and another large set poorer and poorer.

What about democracy? Is the kingdom of God democratic? No it is not. But at the same time it is not communist. Both systems have their flaws.

We represent the kingdom of God, not capitalism or communism.

[franklin (franklin)]

Explain to me what form of economics is "kingdom of God". Never studied that in economic courses I took. I understand charity. What are you talking about?

Let us talk about communism. Are you saying that it is the best economic system this world could have? All it does is make one small set of people (communists) get richer and richer and another large set poorer and poorer.

The fascists railed against both capitalism and communism. They thought they had the better way.

[curious_george (curious_george)]

TO Franklin;

I can understand being hurt and what has been done to your family. I have not ever personally been in the same situation as you. You talk about WBN wanting peoples money and I just plain ole don't see it. I also don't see them really worrying about people posting messages about them on some obscure message board. So what you're saying is that you assume all that you say about them. Isn't that just as bad?? Thank you for being concerned about people but it appears that you are letting you bad experience close your mind.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Perhaps this will help in seeing the financial goals of Congress WBN, which is to spread their agenda worldwide through a global individual and corporate chain of sponsors. They have an entire site dedicated to their global corporate structure. By their own words, the financial "members" are all subject to fulfilling the WBN Congress agendas and to being accountable to the "apostolic team", and finally, Noel Woodruffe:
http://wbncorporate.org/about/membership.asp
And here are their criteria for becoming an individual or corporate "Kingdom Member", including financial accountability and support:

http://www.kcnetwork.org/entering/procedure.asp

One has to wonder, what exactly is the financial support money used for? I see nothing specific, except repeatedly it is stated that financial support is used to further the vision of WBN Congress. Practically, how does WBN claim to Biblically help others? Do they use the money to evangelize and witness for Christ to the lost? Do they use the money to help tangible needs, such as food, clothing or shelter? Do they use the money to buy and send Bibles? HOW do they Biblically help others with their amassed money from all of their individual and corporate members?

(Message edited by ontheroad on October 10, 2005)

(Message edited by ontheroad on October 10, 2005)

[franklin (franklin)]

"Explain to me what form of economics is "kingdom of God". Never studied that in economic courses I took. I understand charity. What are you talking about?"

I'm waiting for an answer.

[righteous (righteous)]

I never said the kingdom of God is a form of economics. And most naturally you will not find it in an economic textbook because the world does not know the ways of God. The economic textbooks speaks about scarcity. But we see in Genesis that God said we must be fruitful and multiply and use the VAST resources of the earth in the service of God and man. VAST resources, not scarce resources.

The kingdom of God is simply anywhere that is ruled and reigned by God. It is not something you can see with your eyes, but rather it refers to the internal principles that operate in someone's heart. Luke 17:20-21.

The kingdom of God can refer to systems and also to human lives. Systems are expressed through human lives, and so the heart of the humans operating in a system is very important. The kingdom of God exists in systems that are built by His principles. The kingdom of God is expressed through human lives that are submitted to God.

What I am saying, therefore, is that neither capitalism or communism reflect the values of the kingdom of God. In capitalism the rich get richer and the poor poorer. In communism there is a dictator who rules with a iron hand.

Thus what is necessary is to get from God how he wants his world to be run, since He made it and only he knows how best to run it.

Does that answer the question?

Also ontheroad you asked whether the money collected is used to witness Christ to the lost and to evangelize. Yes it is used for that. And yes it is used to buy and send bibles. As a matter of fact some time ago a guy from the network was captured by some police in a particular country because he was bringing in bibles. I cannot recall which country it is. But it was a country that forbids the teaching of Christ. By the grace and will of God the guy was released.

[franklin (franklin)]

I am all for capitalism, but I am not for greed. Capitalism is not where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. That is communism. That is why the Soviet Union fell. The rich Soviet political hacks could not supply the Russian masses the simple basics for human existence.

We are looking at capitalism. The computer. The modern marvels, conveniences we have are a product of capitalism. Automobiles, electricity, household appliances, air conditioning, all that we take for granted today. What our ancestors did not have hundreds of years ago.

It is true that if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door. An entrepreneur knows that if he supplies a more reliable product and gives better services than his competitors then his business will increase. Humanity benefits. What is wrong with that?

A business person that delivers superior products and services profits and the world benefits. A pharmaceutical company knows that if they discover a cure for a disease that they will profit from that. Humanity benefits.

Who gives these people the wisdom, knowledge and skills to invent, develop, discover and market their products? God! All knowledge comes from God.

Your understanding of capitalism is faulty and cliched. What do you do for a living righteous?

Capitalism existed in Christ's day. Joseph was a carpenter. He was a capitalist. He produced a product and sold his product. He had a good heart and profited from it. Was he greedy because he took the money he made to feed, clothe and house Mary and Jesus? NO!

Yes, the Kingdom of God is a capitalistic economic system. You have failed to show me otherwise. Elijah Centre railing against in their ignorance does not make it not so.

Yes, the Kingdom of God is a true democracy where every man and woman have a true voice in their government. Also a republic where everyone's basic human rights are defended. The alternatives to these God inspired political and economic systems can not be of God. God in his infinite wisdom knows man's best motivator to improve his condition on earth is through personal gain. By improving the individual's condition, without satanic greed, all benefit. All boats rise with the tide. The richer and the poor both get richer. What's wrong with that?

A true picture of a capitalist is not the character on the monopoly game board with the tuxedo, top hat and cane. A capitalist is the little boy at his lemonade stand. The widow lady who owns a dress shop. The teenager who just got his first job at McDonalds. That is the face of Capitalism. Thank you God for giving us the knowledge to use a system where everyone benefits.

The one's you refer to end up going to jail. Greedy bastards like Ken Lay @ Enron, Martha Stewart. They are not capitalists. They are too lazy to play the game fairly. They are just greedy. They are the exceptions.

Pray for God to give you discernment. What you have been told of capitalism is false. You speak of greed. That is not capitalism. Man wanting to improve his condition by providing a good product and service to people is not greed. It is God's will.

The Kingdom of God is at hand NOW! It is not off in the future. It does not await for your so-called prophet to bring it to us. It is NOW! It is called the Holy Spirit working in our hearts now!

[righteous (righteous)]

What do I do for a living? I am an attorney-at-law.

I have not been told by someone about capitalism. I studied it and did excellently too at the best school in Jamaica (I just added this part for comic reliefhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifalthough I do believe it is the best school in Jamaica, it is Campion College by the way for those of you people who are from Jamaica.)

This is what I recall and I am revisiting my econ book. Capitalism is an economic system in which individuals privately own productive resources and possess property rights to use these resources in whatever manner they choose, subject to certain (minimal) legal restrictions.

In pure capitalism, consumers ultimately determine what will be produced by their spending - their voting in the market place, what they are willing to spend their income on. As far as producers are concerned their motivation as to what goods are produced is determined by the search for profit. Only those goods that can be produced profitably will be produced.

However, what happens if a few people have the money and therefore the power to pay alot for certain goods. Since producers are only motivated by profit then they will put a high price on the product, because guess what the rich people can afford it and it is profitable.

And what happens if the product is not so good for you. They will produce it anyway if it is profitable, and if there is minimal government intervention, then who is to stop them. Because the role of the government is to act for the people, but the role of a businessman is to make money.

And what if the product is good for us but we cannot afford it, it will not be produced.

I am saying it is contrary to the principles of the kingdom of God because nowhere in scripture is it said that business is for the purpose of profit. Of course profit is necessary because without it you cannot continue to produce, but the purpose of business is to provide a service for God and man. Genesis 1:28 (amplified version) - And God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it [using all its vast resources in the service of God and man]; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth.

I never said the kingdom of God is off in the future. Where did you read that in what I wrote? I said the kingdom of God is internal, it expands in the heart of man and I specifically mentioned Luke 17:20-21 in which Jesus told the Pharisees that the kingdom of God is not external, it is not something they can look at and say there it is, it is internal.

And I worse did not say that a prophet was bringing it to you. Furthermore I do not see any reason for you to refer to anyone as a so-called prophet since I have not even such as mentioned someone's name to you. I do not even remember speaking to you about any prophet.

I am just saying that intrinsic in both systems are some things which are not godly. Yes capitalism has some things that sound good and are in fact good. People must be free. God gave us that freedom. Therefore, any system that takes away our freedom is ungodly. So capitalism is good in that it gives us the freedom to do as we wish. However, safeguards have to be put in place to ensure that we are not exploited by businessmen whose only motivation is to make money off of us. And we need governments who will have the power and the will to protect us.

And yes even communism has some things that sound good, because in theory it speaks of community ownership. However, we have seen that that is not quite how it has manifested itself itself in the earth, case on point Soviet Union. So in theory it sounds like we all share the ownership of the nation's resources. But it is not so in practice.

And guess why? Because of the heart of man. Evil people can corrupt any system however good it sounds on paper. Which is why I said that systems are expressed through human lives. A system is no better or worse than the humans who operate in it.

Of course communism is inherently wrong because it takes away everything from you and gives it to the state whether you like it or not. That is ungodly because God has given us freedom. Such a system can never be right unless the people willingly give up what they own to a government that will use those resources for the good of each of those persons.

So I am not agreeing with communism.It speaks about shared ownership, but it takes away people's resources by force which is ungodly. Also we have seen that the resources aren't quite used for the benefit of everybody. Communism tries to achieve a certain thing in an ungodly way and it is further abused by corrupt people.

Capitalism gives us freedom, which is good, However, it does not offer us the protection from corrupt people who would seek to exploit us. At least not pure capitalism.

I will now address where you said the kingdom of God is a democracy. It isn't. When you say it is a democracy are you referring to our right to vote for our government, etc. Because when I said the kingdom of God is not a democracy I was not talking about government. I was talking about the kingdom that every believer is a part of, in which we live by God's principles and by his word. If you look throughout scripture obedient people just do as God tells them. The only say they have in it is to make the choice to follow God or not. God says to us do as you like. However, because we love and trust him we choose to give our hearts and lives to him because we know he knows best and we know he won't exploit us.

Perhaps we might never be able to freely give of ourselves in that way to any government on earth or human system. Perhaps.

[righteous (righteous)]

No one is responding to my post? It was directed to you franklin. Looking forward to your response.

[righteous (righteous)]

Still waiting Franklin

[franklin (franklin)]

I'll respond to your post soon. I have not forgotten you. I was glad to read that you are not as socialistic as your beloved fuhrer. But you still have a lot to learn about true capitalism. I shall return.

[righteous (righteous)]

Ok. I am looking forward to your post. Nice to know you haven't forgotten mehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[uelsimon]

Are we still waiting?