World breakthrough network

[Anonymous]

Has any one heard about this group. The "apostolic leader" of this group is named Noel Woodruff. He is from Trinidad and the name of his church is THE WORLD BREAKTHROUGH NETWORK.

[Anonymous (203.19.232.65)]

Yes my church is now part of WBN.

What do you want to know?

[Anonymous (80.238.51.199)]

yes. its dangerous... thats all i can tell you

[Anonymous (68.48.105.236)]

Hi. We are attending a church that joined WBN about a year ago. We have concerns... everything "sounds good and correct" but something feels wrong. Can you please give us some idea of what might be "dangerous" or point us towards other information resources? We are struggling with this for ourselves and our friends.
Thank you.

[Anonymous (203.19.232.65)]

It is of no help to say that WBN is dangerous and not give the facts to back up this statement.

What information do you have?

[Anonymous (68.48.105.236)]

I am addressing this to the member of a WBN church because your point was well-taken -- to just say WBN is dangerous with no facts is not helpful.
As someone who attends a WBN church, could you describe the emphasis of your church? Is it very heavy into "learning the vocabulary" and "talking about reformation" and bringing back the teachings from the conferences? How is it "different" from your previous church experience? Are there prophecies given, healings taking place like in "prophetic" churches? How does it compare to other "apostolic networks" out there? What is the difference? Is it a difference that is readily seen when you come into the church? What was the background of your pastor before he joined WBN? Please give us some help here...

[Anonymous (169.207.89.222)]

O.K... Anonymous 68.48.105.236. Our church is now looking into WBN. What was your church culture before the switch? How have the members transitioned? How can you describe your "everything "sounds good and correct" but something feels wrong." ?

[Anonymous (82.5.31.100)]

Maybe these help:


http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/charis/randles/randle5.htm by Bill Randle. His book is online, the rest of the site is not as balanced but if you stick to http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/rlister/charis/randles/randle.htm you should be fine.

http://www.wbnetwork.org/about/leadership/alt.asp
in particular quote "A representative joining within our structure to the germinal revelation positions of the Latter Rain Movement of the 1940s which provided the seed-bed of breakthrough into the positions that are being fully formed and articulated in the Apostolic Reformation. This is represented in the presence of David Copp."

+ read N Woodroffe's book - "the present reformation of the church" avail from amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-4673604-4296002

His other books seem to be unavailable, but you can order them direct: http://ethnonet.gold.ac.uk/illustrations/ch7illustrations/75elijah/books/books.htm
and read the first chapter of each book online.


This site also helps - see the links with WBN!!:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a68.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m22.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/k00.html#kingnow
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/r02.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l39.html
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c138.html


+ links to WBN's own website:
http://www.wbnetwork.org/resources/glossary.html
http://www.wbnetwork.org/resources/questions/default.asp

http://www.wbnetwork.org/about/leadership/default.asp :
"The Glow of Light
The glow of light exuding from the highest level (the Founding Apostle and the Senior Apostolic Team) flows downward through the centers of the levels of leadership illuminating the earth. This conceptualizes the downward flow of "apostolic grace".

The Heavens and The Earth
The WBN Development Coordinators/Representatives actually circle and embrace the entire earth. The higher levels of leadership reach up and into the heavens. This conceptualizes the "heavenly" operation of the Network leadership in bringing heavenly resource down from God which is then ministered into the earth through the Network coordinators on a "ground" level."

Let me know when you've had a look at these links. There is little actually 'stated' by Noel but a lot implied. This only becomes obvious when you read about the other movements. Its links with 'latter rain' and its theological similarities with 'Manifest Sons of God' are the most concerning. There is a lot of info out there but some of has reacted to anything about the holy spirit. I have tried to include reasonably balanced sources. I have more research but that is prob. enough to keep you going!! Happy reading!

[Anonymous (82.5.31.100)]

Please Please look at this site - it seems pretty conclusive Noel Woodroffe and World Breakthrough Network are extremely dodgy and dangerous. There are too many links and similaries to dismiss it.

http://www.cultwatch.com/superapostles.html

Comments and thoughts would be appreciated.

[Steve Davies (195.92.168.164)]

I have been a member of a church that is now a part of the WBN for the past six years. Probably about three years ago we first came into contact with WBN through someone from Trinidad (where the main church is) who was studying over here (United Kingdom). For the past two years the church has checked out the WBN and for just under a year we have been a part of the network.

I’m afraid Anonymous 82.5.31.100 I don’t recognize the “extremely dodgy and dangerous” organization you describe WBN to be. I followed the link to Cult Watch and quite honestly the article did not apply to WBN. Much of what was written focused on the so-called Super Apostles love of money. Having encountered Noel Woodruff on a number of occasions now I can say with some certainty that this is not the case. He (and the other leaders who have visited our church from overseas) has stayed with members of the church. This has not been the case with the leaders from the group we used to be a member of, who chose to stay at the local Hilton Hotel. I have found the representatives of WBN to be humble individuals. Indeed, one of the WBN church leaders lives and works in the Ukraine and lives as humble an existence as the locals.

Members of my church are not forced to give a certain amount of money, many work for para-church organizations, we all have many friends outside of the immediate church (both Christian and those who do not believe) and debate within the church is healthy (and sometimes heated).

I followed the link to “How Cults Work” and again did not recognize WBN as one (but perhaps I’ve been so brain-washed as not to notice!). I’ll give one example and that is that I am moving away for work reasons and at no point have I been put under the sort of pressure that the article outlines.

I don’t know who you are or whether you have any real experience of worshipping at a WBN church. I’m interested to know what your motivations are. All I know is that you have given an inaccurate picture and could be causing unneeded worry and suffering.

[Anonymous (4.10.174.70)]

This is long, but I wanted to post my experiences with my former church cult and how an apostle from World Breakthrough Network has stepped in and covered up and condoned many awful things that have happened.

After attending for over 12 years,I recently left in a haze of hurt and disillusionment.The pastor became increasingly power-hungry and authoritative, repeatedly demanding "covenant" loyalty and both privately and publicly rebuking anyone who had any concerns or questions about him or "his" ministry. He verbally assaulted many of us, both privately and publicly, criticizing us, belittling us, and accusing us of things repeatedly that we never did or that were only sins in his twisted perception.

In addition to the abusive authority issues, it has been concretely proven with corroborating evidence and witnesses (more than the Biblically required 2-3) that he has embezzled more than $30,000 over the last few years. He had almost exclusive use of the church checkbook, with his name as the signer. He also evaded taxes by grossly overstating his parsonage usage. Despite the fact that his embezzlement caused our little church to greatly suffer financially, he placed the blame on the congretation, saying numerous times that we were not "bearing enough responsiblity" and that our lack of giving showed the "condition of our hearts".

He also has been arrested for a DUI. He tested positive for prescription painkillers and as part of his probation was forbidden to have any narcotics. He had become addicted to Vicoden and repeatedly obtained the drugs in violation of his probation by keeping the details of his arrest secretive and lying about his addiction in order to obtain Vicoden from church members who were precribed it for legitimate medical and surgical reasons. When he could not get enough of the ddrugs that way, he got it by having a church member steal a precription pad from her doctor ex-husband, and asked her to write illegal prescriptions to obtain the painkillers, for which she was eventually arrested. (He wasn't arrested, as he left her at the scene when he saw police approaching her. Great integrity.....)

Additionally, he and this same church member were prayer partners in an intercessory ministry focused on helping pray for people to come out of satanism. It has now been proven that over a 2-3 year period, the church member fabricated over 50 different personas that she would use to contact the pastor via e-mail. These fake persons would claim to be involved deeply in high-level satanism. The pastor would correspond with each "person", leading them to witness to them and counsel them out of satanism. Of course, all the while, the many "satanists" were reality the church member with whom he was praying. The two of them - the pastor and church member - would spend many hours interceding and praying for each "satanist" until each one, via e-mail correspondence, would relate that they had seen the light and were leaving satanism. This was a horribly deceptive and evil thing this church member did, and numerous ones of us in the church repeatedly went to the pastor to tell him that we suspected that these "satanists" were not real people, but were actually the church member pretending to be the satanists. The pastor would refuse to listen. Instead, he would berate us questioning ones for daring to question his discernment and authority and for accusing the church member of something so evil. Well, in February of this year, it was technologically proven that this church member indeed had fabricated each and every one of the "satanists", creating their respective e-mail addresses and maintaining correspondence with the pastor that would create a self-confirming intercessory ministry between her and the pastor, that their many hours of prayer were effectively getting people saved and out of satanism. Myself and another person from our church proved that the IP's of every e-mail address originated from and traced back to the church member's home or work computers. Her work was alerted to her unethical and illegal usage of computers to help perpetrate the falsified e-mails. The computer tech guy at her work was able to, without her knowledge, get screens shots of her keystrokes, concretely showing her fingers typing the fake e-mails. The pastor refused to believe the evidence. Instead, he maintains that he and the church member have been "set up" to make it appear that she fabricated the e-mails. He is too prideful to admit that he was conned and in turn refused to heed others' counsel, thus making him a part of the hoax by his willful blindness.

Yet in spite of all of this - the abuse of authority, the embezzlement, the immoral relationship, the drug addiction and ensuing illegal obtainment of the drugs, and the participation in a hoaxed prayer ministry - he is still in the pulpit. He was asked to step down, which he refused to do. Some of us have left. Some are refusing to see the truth and are continuing to believe his lies.

An "apostle" from was with whom my pastor and church have had a relationship, has stepped in at the request of the pastor and a few people in the church. This man is a member of both World Breakthrough Network and his own apostolic network, which is called Global Transformation Institute. Several of us from the church sat down with him and went through the awful things that had happened. He greatly minimized the sins that my pastor committed. He had little patience with those of us who have been hurt. He even said that the pastor didn't need to go to former members and that if anyone was hurt, it is their fault, not the pastor's fault. He said that we should just forgive and move on and keep this an in-church matter, without contacting the legal authorities. He has now deemed the situation "taken care of", as the pastor gave a generic statement of apology from the pulpit, apologizing for "those he has hurt". He never specifically publicly addressed any of his sins, and has privately either denied or greatly minimized each of his sins. This statement was made 3 months after those of us who left had already left. We have yet to hear an apology from him. I doubt we ever will. The pastor and apostle are together now heading up what is left of this church. The apostle has assured the church that with his covering and network leadership over the pastor, that no more bad stuff will occur. I guess it doesn't matter that alot already has occurred. I guess it doesn't seem odd that anyone would want a pastor who can only behave himself when he has someone watching over him. I guess adding the church into the network and was more important to this aposle than standing for truth and righteousness. He seems to operate in the mentality that a church leader should retain his leadership role regardless of what is done. Where in the Bible does it say that a pastor or other church leader is exempt from the same laws that non-church leaders are subject to? And even if no law is broken, where in the Bible does it say that a leader can say and do unethical, unGodly, unloving, abusive things and still stay in his leadership role? Leadership is not permanent. The "anointed ones" do not permanently retain that anointing and calling regardless of their actions. Where is responsibility? Where is humility and obedience to the Word? If anything, isn't the Church called to set an example in walking in Godly behavior and in taking responsibility and disciplining or removing its leaders when they fail to do that?

I have also heard this "apostle" preach at my ex-church several times before I left and was very uncomfortable with much of his teaching, which centers over and over on "kingdom" theology and "new truths" being imparted that do away with the old truths. Also, the leadership structure of World Breakthrough Network is disturbing. It is hierarchical, with the Founding Apostle at the top and different levels of apostles underneath him. They are required to demonstrate "unbreachable loyalty" to the organization among other things. They also have a large section of their website devoted to their corporate side, which has the goal to build a common supply of "kingdom finances". Kinda scary of that falls into unGodly hands...

Given my experiences with this apostle from World Breakthrough Network and having heard his teachings numerous times and having read the networks' websites, I sincerely believe there are many red flags to be concerned about with this organization. Anyone whose church is considering joining it should run, not walk away.

[Anonymous (4.10.174.70)]

Here are links to World Breakthrough Network and to the network headed up by the apostle mentioned in my above post.

http://wbnetwork.org

http://globaltransformationinstitute.org

[Anonymous (4.10.174.70)]

Oops...I typed in the wrong name to the second link. The first one is correct, the second one should have read:
http://globaltransformation.org

[Anonymous (62.202.84.49)]

I totally agree with Anonymous (4.10.174.70). My ex-church has entered this movement last year. I left 3 months later.

Suddenly the love has left the church and especially the leadership. In one day the principal pastor fired all the leadership team to rebuild the church in a better way...
My experience of World breakthrough network look like that:
- You don't agree or don't understand some teachings because you have not yet the revelation
- The revelation will come in hearing a lot of hours of teachings and in taking notes.
- They preach so long, sometimes more than 3 hours, that you are totally brain-watched.
- The christians who are not in the "present reformation" are not sure to be saved....
- Those who reject this apostolic reformation are worst than the unbelievers.
- You have to be in a total loyalty to the leaders, if they say you can't go at this conferance you cannot go. Finally they lead your daily life.
- They publicly rebuked you if you say something that they disagree
- and the list can be so much longer.....

Actually they are very strong in how they speak. They seduce little by little by sermons who don't really mean something! They use a lot of greek and hebrew words to explain you something totally different from what is teach in churches, in much of the cases there is completely crazy explanations.

In the beginning they are speaking a lot about what's wrong in the churches, about all the problems of the christians. A lot of this stuff are really true, but they forget all the things that are good in the present christianity, they take only the extreme example of stupidity in the midst of are churches. And they make you believe that they have the wonderful solution to change everything and to bring the kingdom of God on the earth...
But has you can see in the testimony of Anonymous (4.10.174.70) they speak a lot but act totally opposite, the outside change but inside they stay totally self-centered.

They are using the thirst and hunger of christians to lead them in a no-way, and bring them in much frustrations about the church.

For me it's really a dangerous network and you must run away from them. I have too much of my best friends who have became totally bond by this sect-church.

Finally I don't really know how it's working in other places, but my experience and the core-doctrines of this movement make me totally disagree with them.

In His love
A brother

[Anonymous (172.144.73.115)]

Don't ever call a man or woman an "apostle", "prophet" "annointed" or "saint". Only God knows our hearts. Giving man these lofty titles is man worshipping ,cult creating and putting man between you and God. Only man between us and God is Jesus, the true and only Son of God.

[Anonymous (208.131.187.55)]

so when the apostle paul calls us saints in the bible and affirms his apostleship as being from God, he is actually doing the wrong thing.

Please!!

[Anonymous (172.208.18.147)]

You are speaking of the biblical Paul. Paul was an apostle. The Bible is infallible. I am speaking of the so called, self appointed modern apostles. They are fakes. As to the word saints.....I ask you this, do you really feel good enough in God's eyes to call YOURSELF a "Saint". I don't. I have enough humility to deny honoring myself with that appellation. I am honored to be known simply and only as a follower of Christ.

[Anonymous (208.131.190.65)]

yes I feel good to call myself a saint. The bible is infallible as you said and assures me that i am indeed one. i wont succumb to false humilty and adopt the 'I'm such a worm' mentality

P.S I also think you're confusing the present day definition of saint found in a dictionary with with the idea that Paul had when he used the term in the bible

[Anonymous (172.157.29.40)]

I understand the definition that Paul used in his writings. And I'm ok with that. But satan has invaded the body of Christ and has perverted the word of God. He has set up his stooges to cause Christians to take their eyes off Christ and to put them on men and women who claim to be "saints" "apostles" "prophets" and "godly" (godlike). I am here on factnet because my family has suffered grievously from a cult that lured a loved one in by using those trigger words. Until we realize that those words have been perverted and begin to question their use and true meaning then we are all susceptible to being lured into a cult. God loves a humble Christian. Paul was. So can we be. Let God be the one to put us on a pedestal, not ourselves or others. Yours for a cultfree tomorrow!

[Taniela Koroivueta (130.195.196.201)]

Blessed is the man who does not walk in the council of the wicked nor sits in the seat of scorners. Grow up! God has more important things for your life than your bickering just chase after him and let God define you.
Anyway I love Doc, Hes a good father, that has kept a good family, pastored a strong Church and built a strong Network of friend looking to God praying for his Divine Authority, always checking themselves with God.

I was checking for spelling and googled in to this discussion.

[Anonymous (82.33.18.94)]

Has anyone found much information on the Latter Rain movement of the 1940s that features as part of the foundations of "Congress WBN"? (that's the new name by the way)

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Anonymous (82.33...)

The following link contains some information on the Latter Rain Movement:http://www.discernment.org/restorat.htm

Do you know why WBN is changing their name and the significance of it? I went to their website, but didn't see any indication of a name change. I am just wondering because my former church/cult has recently developed strong ties to an "apostle" in WBN and an already awful situation has just gotten a lot worse. I just wondered what their name change might mean.

[Anonymous (4.42.18.34)]

I am glad to hear people discussing the WBN. I have been trying to research information on this "cult" for some time now. Two years ago I left a church in Long Beach California that joined the WBN. Things have gotten real strange over there. Noel Woodroffe and his gang spend alot of time involved with that church. AS a matter of fact the retired pastor is now a "SENIOR APOSTLE" for the WBN and his bio is on the WBN web site.
It all began with the painfully long Conventions that would keep you held hostage for over three houes!! Noel would be so bold as to tell us we were immature if we were feeling discomfort. He told us to grow up!. The next sunday when our young arrogant pastor began to hold us over by about an hourr and a half(following in his masters footsteps) He noticed the congregation agitation, walkede to the back of the sanctuary, jumped up on a chair, and tore the clock down from the wall.
I could go on for pages and pages telling of strang UN-BIBLICAL sermons.
The tone of the church has forever changed
The pastor is now:
Militant
"Accurate"
Power hungry
Arrogant
He uses strange vocabulary (The WBN web site has a glossary to help define these strange terms)
He has cut off all relationships with those who have skepticisim and have left the church.
He and his famiy have cut ties to immediate family members.

[Anonymous (193.5.216.124)]

about the name I have just seen that they have just launch this website : http://www.congresswbn.org/

but there is no real informations on it.

[Cheri alexander (4.42.18.34)]

Did anyone check out the "Congress" web page listed by 193.5.216.124 ?
The WBN is sooo strange. Just listen to their vocabulary. " To fully operationalize the sector and fulfil the holistic vision of the congress."
This sounds like something straight out of Star Treck!!
The stranger thing is, is that most or all of their "sermons" have the same tone and vocabulary. Most of the congregation walks away saying "Wow, what an anointed sermon." Heck, they can't understand what is being said, therfore, it must be from God!! Give me a break.

[raphael (83.78.9.130)]

Hi alexander

You are so right in your statement. You need to have attended their university in Trinidad to be able to understand what they are saying! And when they speak they put so much confusion in your mind that you are unable to see what is right and what is wrong.
They have a great ability in using the greek and hebrew words in the goal to say what ever they want with the scriptures... so bad.

I'm from europe, and here the churches who are getting in touch with their network are living exactly the same than what you have witness...

I have never heard them speaking about Jesus, it's like if you don't need Him anymore when you begin to "lift up your standards of life"...

Anyway, continue to grow in the Lord and to become more and more like Him! Be bless!

In His love,
raphael

ps: sorry for my "poor" english, it's not my lauguage!

[Anonymous (209.208.76.161)]

I am interested in hearing the 'other' side of this discussion...there are two sides and want to hear both before concluding my 'opinion' for what it is worth. I am aware of a church in the midwest that is planning to shift to WBN..and it deeply concerns me. In these last days...satan is out doing his bidding to rob, kill, and destroy the destiny of believers...would be greatful to hear from my brothers and sisters in the Lord.

[Anonymous (4.63.139.229)]

Go to the book of Habakkuk put that and the fruits of the spirit over the WBN as a template. Check to see if things line up. I did that and my ex pastors sermons did not match the word of God.
The WBN is a militant group of power hungry people. Noel Woodroffe is a self proclaimed "Super" apostle. He has superhuman "accurate" insights, downloaded from God (it is disgusting just using his words.) He hears the message first, intreprets it and is then able to feed us lowley sheep. But wait, you too can become "accurate" when you join the WBN,give them all of your money, buisness, church property. etc... How great is that!!
I loath what Noel and his thugs have done to our church. He will be judged one day.
I am in a healthy church now. Helping to bring a living Jesus to a dying world.

[Anonymous (208.163.57.144)]

People fear what they do not understand.I am a member of the C-WBN and have been for eight years.As a christian, the level of purity,covenant,strong prayer life and understanding that I walk in far exceeds my former experiences with church.
Jesus Christ is our Lord, none other. We undersatnd the role of apostles and prophets as foundational in the building/edifying of the body of Christ. Their relevance today is of no lesser importance than in the days of Christ.Please see Ephesians 3:5, 4:11-12.
We are not power hungry. Our relationships are voluntary in which we subscribe to a core set of Kingdom of God values. Nothing is coerced. Dr. Woodroffe is a normal human being following the instructions God has given him.
Consider this:- The man has no great wealth, no political ambitions. He is from a place we can hardly see on a world map.
YET, he heads an organisation that operates in over sixtyfive countries across the planet. No human being can accomplish this task without natural resources.This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our sight.
I invite you,check out the website (temporarily)wbnetwork.org. See for yourself and judge righteously.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

To 208.163.57.144 -

Actually, that whole beginning statement of yours: "people fear what they do not understand" is a good example of some of the unfortunate mindsets held by the WBN. They assume that they understand greater truths that the rest of us just "don't get". Please don't automatically assume that because someone does not agree with you, it is out of their own ignorance or fear. It might actually be their own discernment that God has given them.

I have personally heard several sermons and had conversations with one of the "apostles" in the WBN network, and I DID understand what he preached, and I don't feel that was Biblically sound. In fact, he tended to share the same superficial rendering of the same topic over and over: God is giving new "fresh" words and insights to a select few apostles - namely those in the WBN - to tear down old religious structures and to advance the "manifest kindgom" here on earth, because all of the existing religious structures are antiquated and of no use anymore. He went so far as to relate that we can be God's physical representation on earth, to the degree that we might not even face mortality, but could become immortal. It was the same sermon, time and time again, with no depth to it.

This same apostle was very arrogant and condescending both in his sermons and in conversation with him. Additionally, he accepted a nebulous apology as sufficient to restore my former pastor to the pulpit, after his horrific behavior included embezzlement, sexual impropriety, a deceptive ministry, and illegal obtainment of prescription drugs. We were told not to question our pastor, but to accept his leadership and one-sentence, vague apology. This was an example of the covenant loyalty that WBN espouses: loyalty to a man in leadership, regardless of his behavior.

Judge righteously? I invite you to do the same.

[STEVE (68.119.37.147)]

I HAVE HEARD DIFFERENT SERMONS BY ONESS PREACHERS AND ONLY ONE OF THEM EVER PREACHED THE WORD OF GOD ALL THE OTHERS REGARDLESS OF WHAT SUBJECT THEY TOOK ALWAYS PREACHED BAPTISUM BY WATER. THAT IS THE ONLY VERSE THEY KNOW IT SEEMS

[Anonymous (198.81.26.106)]

This is an amazing thread...with so little facts and a tremendous amount of personal attacks...

For example what 4.63.139.229 writes: "But wait, you too can become "accurate" when you join the WBN,give them all of your money, buisness, church property. etc... How great is that!! I loath what Noel and his thugs have done to our church. He will be judged one day. I am in a healthy church now. Helping to bring a living Jesus to a dying world."

I am in this church that this person is talking about...as a church we have given no money, businesses, or property to 'Noel and his thugs'...yet it is stated unequivocally as fact, then used to indicte Mr. Woodroffe and his network.

I know for a fact that the 'young arrogant pastor' of the church in Long Beach, (who is by the way 41 years old) has not "cut off all relationships with those who have had skepticism and left the church', nor have he and his family 'cut off ties to immediate family members'.

My family has been in the church in Long Beach for over 15 years and have not seen any of these things, in fact, we have seen the opposite. The pastor has very good relationships with his family members, and the 'retired pastor', who is the pastor's father, goes fishing often with his only immediate family, his brother.

It is amazing how much people are willing to stretch the truth in order to somehow gain support for their perspective. People need to move on with their lives and help bring a living Jesus to a dying world!'

[All For Jesus (205.188.117.20)]

If the church you all are talking about in Long Beach, California is the one I am thinking about, wasn't its founding pastor a David Schoch? And wasn't he a "latter rain" prophet himself. It sounds like this church has been cultic for a very long time if WBN is connected to "latter rain". Why can't churches just be evangelical and preach the gospel!?

[Anonymous (172.173.124.193)]

Why do people call men prophets? That's garbage.
That's how cults happen. Man worshipping man. Show me a modern prophet and his followers and I'll show you a cult.

[Anonymous (4.63.140.87)]

He was never a self proclaimed prophet. Never refered to himself as Prophet Schoch.
Apostle Copp?? "Senior" Apostle Woodroffe??
Oh Yeah, He is the one from which the beam of light shines through. That makes him the "Senior" Apostle.

[All For Jesus (205.188.117.20)]

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember him (Schoch) traveling with other prophets who were called Presbyteries...I believe he would have considered himself a prophet...and he also called other people prophets and even apostles...So, I don't think this cultic language is new to this church...they have been on (or off track!!) from the very beginning.

[Anonymous (202.180.83.7)]

Matt 5:27,28 - "You have heard that it was said to those of old 'You shall not commit adultery' " But I say to you that who ever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery with her in his heart".

In the old testament God the Father gave Moses the law. This was the physical law the external law that man was judged by. However, in Matthew as we see Jesus (the Messiach, the Christos the Christ) up graded the law by turning it into the internal law (the law of the heart, Psalm 44;21 God knows the secrets of the heart)this is the law that human kind is judged by in this time.

I have read all the concerns and no one at this time has mentioned anything about asking our Father for guidance. When we grieve for injustices or assumed injustices against ourselves that is the time that our Father starts to take notice and all he's waiting for is you to cry out Abba, Father I need your help in this situation. Forget about the man committing the injustice and concentrate on the situation. For many times in the old testament we see how God has moved or removed leaders for their sins. All he needed was for the people to cryout to Him. This was to give Him authority to deal with the situation. He has already judged that leader or leaders just as He has already healed us for our sicknesses and forgiven us of our sins.

When we cryout and we ask in the Name of our Saviour Jesus of Nazareth God acts. However, when we judge and we persecute and we malign a leader then we stand in the firing line for our sin is far greater than the observed sin of the leader for our sin is hidden or so we think. We become as Cain was with Abel he killed his brother and tried to hide it. When we speak against a leader then we are the same as Cain.

Remember David and Saul. No matter how much Saul wanted to kill David. David always honoured Sauls anointing or appointment. God wants us to put aside this physical man, this worldly man for we are in the world but not of the world and he is demanding that. He wants our communion and this can only be achieved through our hearts. We need to stand in front of the mirror and say "is God pleased with what He sees in me" if the answer is no then we need to go to our mediator, Jesus and ask for deeper in dwelling of the Holy Spirit. for He is the key to our salvation. Not the man at the pulpit, for in the end no matter what title they have, they will always only be the messenger.

[Anonymous (200.108.15.201)]

What a bunch of hostile acidic comments from people who call themselves believers!!! This is exactly what the enemy wants. Why not put your names up on the site? If the world were to see this, they would think what an awful confused bunch!!! Most of you do not know what you are talking about and are being used by the enemy to propogate hatred, half truths inuenduos and virtual lies. If the WBN is as bad as you say it is, then God will judge it. That is for sure. His word is perfect and he is our guide. This hidden bad talking and back biting will get us nowhere. Shame on all of you.

[Anonymous (200.108.15.201)]

And furthermore, the pastor from Long Beach has not at all severed himself from his family. I personally attended a fishing outing with memebers of his congregation. Remember that God hates lying lips. Do not be used by the enemy...please get your facts straight before spewing nonsense.

[Kimberly (4.10.174.70)]

I'll put my name here, as one of the posters on this site. But where is your name?

The facts I wrote about in my post (4.10.174.70) and (128.194.115.135) are just that - FACTS, from the direct experiences I personally went through.

And yes, God does judge in His own perfect way and time, no doubt. But He also doesn't want His sheep bitten by false prophets and apostles when others know the facts and want to warn them. Silence is wrong in that aspect.

Perhaps you need to get your facts straight before you accuse others of lying.

[All For Jesus (152.163.101.13)]

Dear Kimberly,

I am so sorry for what you went through in your situation. But I don't think that the 'get your facts straight' comment was directed to you. It sounds like it was directed at the Long Beach situation. I am sure that you experienced what you experienced, and it may or may not be definitive of WBN.

Organizations and networks, can not be truly judged by one event or even one leader. What we are trying to get at is if this is normal activity for WBN. One of the problems of this type of dialogue is that people hear something and then repeat it in the first person on a message board, even though it is not first-hand information. What may be part-truth, then becomes first-hand complete truth. Then it is repeated as such. This is weakness of message boards. The strengh of them is that information can get out quickly to many people.

I know that the church in Long Beach, even though having 'latter rain' connections and ties for many, many years, never came across as cultic. Now if you consider 'latter rain' cultic, then you automatically make every 'latter rain' church a cult. I'm not sure that is the best way.

By the way, did you ever send your thoughts about your situation to the leader of WBN - Woodruff? Maybe he too would be horrified by what you went through.

[Joe Vaatuitui (202.180.83.7)]

Anonymous (202.180.83.7) Sorry pressed the wrong button.My name is Joe from New Zealand, thats how far this notice board can go as the many Israeli's that have stayed with me have stated "to the ends of the earth".

I just want to lift up the name of Jesus of Nazareth. My Lord and Saviour,please note many can say it but "can many claim it" and if you obey all His commandments and you believe that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the God of your life and that Jesus took upon Himself the transgressions of the world including yours and mine.

Then you need to go to the source of your concerns. Your maker and ask Him to show you the way. As I stated before, in the end the Pastor is only a messenger, A MAN!and he will act and speak as a man. Jesus says to judge every tree by its fruit and He also says to love thy neighbor as thy self. When we are doing things that don't matchup with the Word of God, how do we feel and how would we feel if someone saw us doing something wrong and got onto the internet and broadcasted it to the ends of the earth.

Remember he is only one man in the chain of life. How many times did we see in the old testament the waywardness of the kings, Solomon and David for instance. If you have an issue wiith someone take it to Him/Her. If it isn't resolved take a brother with you, or as someone mentioned before contact Dr Noel Woodroffe himself. If you still don't get any satifaction then you have the right as a citizen to take these issues to the Police. This is the correct procedure to take. The accusations (and thats all they are until the Pastor or any leader has been tried and found with sin in a court of law) should not be put up on this notice board, because this adds fuel for the many attacks of our adversary. It is written that you will be persecuted in the time of the end and we are to expect many atrocities against us even death and we are seeing this right around the world.

Please consider; are you a christian or a believer?
Christianity I liken to a rainbow there are many colours and shades of colours. However, I call myself a believer because there is only One God, One Jesus and One Holy Spirit without the shades.

Enough of that idle chit chat. Let me say that for your reasons afore mentioned, you were correct in leaving the church, remembering of course that a church is a gathering of people of like mind or spirit. Not the man or the building and so you can have church at home. Which is where it all began people gathering in their homes and praying as we see in Acts. This is what I have done because I was tired of listening to Pastors reading from other Pastors notes. You can tell this simply by them saying "Oh I've lost my place" or the pregnant pauses whilst they try to find their place in the second hand notes and when you walk out of church talking about everything except Jesus.

NOTE!

If you still have an issue please publish it on this notice board and I'll take it to Dr Noel Woodroffe. I am attending a meeting in Gisborne, New Zealand over the period 22-24 October 2004 and I will raise this matter with him. I look forward to your comments.

I give all the Glory to the Father the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob

[Anonymous (203.19.232.170)]

Dr Noel Woodroffe will be at Gosford Christian Centre,Sunday evening 26th September,why not go along and listen to what he has to say and make up your own mind -- I will

[Anonymous (203.19.232.170)]

Dr Noel Woodroffe will be at Gosford Christian Centre,Sunday evening 26th September,why not go along and listen to what he has to say and make up your own mind -- I will

[Anonymous (4.63.140.87)]

where is Gosford Christian Center?

[Anonymous (203.19.232.170)]

Hi

The Gosford Christian Centre,Central Coast.

[Anonymous (4.63.140.87)]

Central Coast?

[All For Jesus (152.163.101.13)]

Here is a post from another thread here on Factnet discussion The New Apostolic Reformation. It is relevant to this discussion if anyone is discussing any more, especially in light of 82.5.31.100's recommendation of Cultwatch.org as a solid site for determining if your church or leader is a cult, or cult leader.

-----------------------------------------

Cultwatch, recommended by FreshStart is absolutely not a good or proper means of determining the 'cult status' of a church or leader. There means of determining if a church is a 'Super Apostle Church', etc., is not only unbiblical, but illogical, unfair, and dangerous. Their Super Apostle Detector would be funny if it was not such a serious subject.

See below the e-mail I sent to them. Let's see if and how they respond.

-----------------------------

To whom it may concern,

I was amazed as I read your website, especially the section on Super Apostles. I was even more so as I answered the questions on the 'Super Apostle Detector' This section gave instructions with the flippant: "Wondering if your church leader is a Super Apostle? Find out by using the CULTWATCH SUPER APOSTLE DETECTOR" and "Happy scanning"

First of all, if indeed someone was in a cult and under the oppressive powers of mind control, how is this type of language at all godly or appropriate? "Happy scanning"?

Second, giving advice that could lead to a major decision such as uprooting one's family and life from a church based the suggestion that someone could know if their 'church leader is a Super Apostle' by 'using the CULTWATCH SUPER APOSTLE DECTECTOR' is not only dangerous, but highly unbiblical. The bible gives us clear directions on how to approach someone who is in sin, or who has offended us.

Then, I actually answered the questions therein and came to the following conclusions based on several scenarios of just answering certain questions and receiving the advice that "You are at risk" and that I should "Consider leaving if things get worst (sic)"

Scenario 1 gives me that advice based on answering "Yes" to the following questions:

1. Does your church give your leaders expensive gifts to 'honor' them?

2. Does your church put a lot of pressure on people to tithe? Does it seem as though they go on about it?

3. Are the rich treated any differently from the average folk in your church?

4. Are you expected to wear the latest fashionable clothes to church, and do other things to make the church appear affluent?

Do you all realize that answering "Yes" to these questions would make over 90% of the Churches in the world worthy to be considered leaving, and that those in them are 'at risk'? The subjective nature of these questions alone make them illegitimate means of discerning any type of cultic activity in a church. What is 'expensive'? What is 'a lot of pressure', and 'does it seem'? What does it mean to treat someone 'differently', and what is your definition of 'rich'? And so on...


Scenario 2 gives the same advice as Scenario 1 in answering the following questions positively:

1. Are the rich treated any differently from the average folk in your church?

2. If you thought your leader had taught something unscriptural, would you be very scared to approach him regarding your concern?

3. Have you heard the term ‘church government’ used?

4. Have you been told that your church is a ‘theocracy’ and not a ‘democracy’?

Again, this would apply to many churches, including some of the Baptist denominations on your 'board' that gives you accountability and oversight. Do you know how many people, in the great majority of churches are 'scared to approach' their leader if they thought he taught something unscriptural? And hearing the term 'church government' in combination with rich people being treated differently in a non-congregational church automatically illicits a warning that I am at risk and that I should not talk to my leaders about this, but to consider leaving! This is amazing...you all cannot really believe this is a healthy method by which to help people!


Scenario 3 got me the following strongest of all warnings for answering "Yes" to five questions: Super Apostle mind control methods detected. "You are in a Super Apostle church. Strongly recommend you read all Super Apostle articles on this site. Leaving is your best option." They are:

1. Does your Pastor claim to have an 'Apostolic Mandate'?

2. Does your Pastor claim to be an Apostle?

3. Has your Pastor used the term 'Apostolic Authority'?

4. Is it implied that your church, or group of churches, are the only church(es) really following God in your country?

4. Have you heard the term ‘church government’ used?

Do you realize that this would have emptied Martin Luther's churches during the Protestant Reformation of the early to mid 1500's? Do your research and you will see that Luther 1) Claimed to have an apostolic mandate, 2) Claimed to be an apostle (and allowed others to call him such), 3) Implied that his church(es) and doctrines are the only ones who were really following God in Germany/Europe (In fact, he concluded that those who we would call Evangelicals today, were more demonic than the Catholic Church themselves!, 4) The term 'church government' was not only used, but spoken of.

I do not really think that you will give this e-mail much credence or thought, however, I beg you to think a little bit about the amount of spiritual pain, havoc and confusion you can cause simply by creating a superficial means by which believers are supposed to be able to tell if they are at risk.


Finally, your pop-up warning after that states: "It looks like you are in a Super Apostle Church…it would be great if you e-mailed us at cultwatch@cultwatch.com and let us know the score (found in the status bar below) along with the name of your church and leader. Be assured that any details identifying you will be kept strictly confidential."

In my opinion again violates the Biblical prescription for these sorts of things. How can you build a database of 'cults' and 'cult leaders' when you have not spoken in person, nor confronted them in anyway?

Well, if you are still reading, thank you for your time. On your website you mentioned that if one would like to know more about the group to whom Cultwatch is accountable, that they could request that information. I would appreciate the names of those trustees, and a means by which I could contact them.

-----------------

The vast amount of flippant ease that fills cultwatch.org is not only dangerous for those who go to that site looking for answers, but for cultwatch.org and its authors. Romans 2.1ff and Matthew 7.1ff clearly warns against inaccurate judgments. There are clear Biblical directives for judging another brother regarding sin, and even doctrinal sins. Cultwatch itself is a form of mind control, controlling, from a safe and easy distance, lives and churches that do not align to their personal interpretations of certain Bible passages.

Hope this helps.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

I hope you don't mind if I put in my 2-cents' worth. I happened across this site in a search in looking for somethin else.

Sounds as though some have been wounded by abusive authority, no matter what they call themselves, and compassion would have us acknowledge that people have been hurt under abusive church leadership.

There are many churches that have abusive leadership (I have attended quite a few of them), but there are also many that do not (which I have also attended). Is it not possible that God does want to bring a Reformation to the modern-day church, and these "prophets" and "apostles" may have a gifting and a calling from God but they have become distorted through their own desire for wealth and power?

Strong giftings and callings from God can easily become distorted as a result of person's own woundedness, biased thinking, and any part of their life that has not been yielded to God. God first breaks leaders before He makes them, and sometimes people move into leadership before God has broken them so they do not know how to be a humble leader completely submitted to God.

These abusive churches are trying to model the churches in Acts, and when they don't get the same results, they use force and compulsion. They are trying to bring about results through man's methods instead of God's. The New Testament is very clear about giving and giving generously, but using force, manipulation, and compulsion is not scriptural.

If you have to tell someone that you are in authority and lord it over them, you are most likely insecure and probably not in God-given authority but have taken authority for yourself. Scripture is very clear about not lording it over people, but being servant leaders.

Any reformation that involves restructuring in the Church does not place people under abusive and greedy and power-hungry leadership. Leadership over any church should be servant-like as was modeled by Jesus. Is it possible that they have some part of the right idea, but are certainly going about it the wrong way? I have seen many times when God has given someone a calling or a vision for something, and then they set about doing it the way they think it ought to be done without even asking God how He wants it done. Any new thing in the church is bound to have excesses going both ways until it eventually balances and evens out.

I know nothing about this church or organization you are speaking of. But I would be careful in making general sweeping statements about their leadership or their organization unless you are personally acquainted with each and every one of them. If you want to share the pain of your personal experience (not second-hand) under a particular leader to warn others about false prophets and apostles, that would be appropriate and Scriptural. But slandering them is not, especially if you are gathering others that were not part of the actual things that transpired and condemning them as well.

Any Christian organization can have "rotten apples" in them, and God will weed them out. Scripture is clear that God puts people in authority, including the ungodly, and God removes them. But in resolving issues, follow the biblical pattern. If you have approached your leadership and were unable to resolve the problems or even have them acknowledged as problems, it is appropriate to go to the next level of authority with witnesses to see if the matter can be resolved. If this fails, go higher up. But once you have reached the final authority in the organzation and the matter is not resolved or addressed, then you should separate yourself from them if you feel that they are unbiblical and are refusing to repent. Paul makes that very clear.

If the leader is involved in illegal activity, you will have to be led of God how to handle. God may tell you to go to the authorities, or He may tell you to keep silent because He has another plan to deal with the situation. But above all, this should be a matter of great prayer and intercession. Pray for God to open their eyes so they can see clearly. Pray for God to heal the woundedness that you have experienced. Above all, be willing to forgive no matter how deeply they have wounded or betrayed you. Anger and bitterness holds you in bondage.

God holds people in authority and leadership under great accountability and He will hold them responsible for any wounding and damage they have done. Scripture is very clear on this point.

Do not feel that God is powerless to deal with these abusive leaders. Just because it looks to you as though they are getting away with something, does not mean that God is silent or inactive. God promises that vengeance is His and He will avenge and He will deliver His people out from under wolves in sheep's clothing.

[eyen amos (66.178.82.3)]

the congress wbn is a network that is pushing the boundries of the church yet further. The global church is still playing baby, i want this, i want that, the service is too long and alL sought of tantrums and unneccesary complains.most of us christians have been or are presently students and our lectures in school lasts more than three hours, at times four hours but yet we do not see anything wrong in that, but when it is in church, all hell breaks loose.for us to grow up to be all of christ we need to grow up in him you cant expect that to come from a 40 minutes message with no intensity,passion and militancy;my Jesus was and is miltant and not passive. i live in jos , Nigeria and i know what congress wbn as done to the nigerian church atmosphere ,people are now seeking God enmasse; and it has impacted the nigerian church to wake up from their slumber to the work the father has called us to do. we were not saved to play church ; all the cwbn churches all over nigeria are proactive ,governmental as well as territorial churches .Nigeria has really been positively impacted by this network.God didn't call the apostles and prohets to entertain the church but to edify the church;unfortunately for the past twenty years the global church has been lethargic.within a space of nine years cwbn as covered 65 nations and this is not mans efforts, it is nothing but God.my brother back off. Do not dabble in things you no little about, go cry to God to touch your eyes with eye salve that you may see and see in deed.Basically i think you are unruly and lack that spirit of submission and commitment to the divine purposes of God .Brother ,i love your hunger and quest to know GOD the more.i pray that God will help you make the necessary transactions for his ultimate purposes.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

I have had personal experiences with and have personally heard numerous sermons by an "apostle" who is in the high up in the leadership hierarchy of World Breakthrough Network. The simple gosbep of reaching the lost for Jesus was not even mentioned in any of his sermons. They were all - everyone - about "invading" the current church to reform the thoughts and mentalities of the church and to achieve "kingdom dominion". His sermons were very condescending to all present church structure, in particular what he refers to as the "Americanized" church. He made it very plain that he and his network believe that they have the only true pattern for the church, and that any other pattern was inferior and even unbiblical, and that other churches needed new "technology downloaded" into their minds to see "present truths". If that does not met the definition of elitist, what does?

He also has been very condescending to women and borderline crude at times, at one point even stating that men would be more of who God wants them to be if there wives would just be more supportive and buy lingerie to keep them from straying from home and becoming distracted by others.

Also, I have read the WBN website. There are many red flags that go up, including some of their "mandates" and leadership structure and their wide corporate scope which seeks to gather money for when the "Babylon system" falls. Also, by their own words, they are influenced by the Latter Rain movement, which in and of itself is alarming.

I still say that this network organization is
dangerous.

[ORONDE SMITH (209.94.221.239)]

Hello everybody I stumbled on this site while looking for soemthing else and it is all quite amusing.
I live in trinidad and I attend Elijah Centre which the local church that Dr. Noel Woodroffe pastors with the other two Elders.

the stuff being said is just not true, money is not demanded.

I know Dr. Woodroffe and love the man dearly, I have never met a more pure and honourable man that loves God and proclaims Jesus Christ as Lord.
I have seen people invited to accept Jesus Christ as Lord many times and the emphasis is on lifestyle christianity that is living according to the principles of the kingdom as declared in the word of God.

The fact is that people will always curse what God is doing just as Jesus was cursed by the pharisees, because their heart was not pure to begin with. Jesus said 'He who desires to do HIs will know the doctrine'
my question is to all the 'bitter' ones out there what is the state of your lifestyle are you enjoying an abundant life in Christ are you demonstrating the fruit of the SPIRIT OF GOD as shown in GAL. 5.
the person who said 'I loathe that noel' loathe is a strong word meaning hate and you call yourself a believer where is the love and compassion that we are supposed to have.
to all my C-WBN brothers don't worry to argue it is not worth it.
the reality is that I would have to say what gamaliel said in 'if it is not of God it will fail but if it is who can stop it'
so all you out there watch and see.

besides who runs this site anyway and are you saved and what church do you attend and what are you doing to accomplish the will of God? that is besides scaring people. LOL LOL
THIS IS ALL SO VERY AMUSING
LOOKING FORWARD TO THE COMMENTS
HOPE I CAN FIND THIS PAGE AGAIN
SERVICES TOO LONG GEEZ GROW UP!!
DON'T WANT TO TAKE NOTES? WOW!! HOW SILLY CAN WE BE.
YOU GUYS JUST SOUND LAZY AND READ WHAT CHRIST SAYS ABOUT THE LAZY SERVANTS IN THE PARABLES
BYE NOW!!

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Oronde Smith:

My concerns have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to take notes or services being too long. I never even raised those as issues. That truly would be "silly" if those were my only two concerns.

I won't go into all of my concerns again. I posted them above. I am posted as Anonymous, but my IP was 4.10.174.70. If you take the time to read it (assuming you're not too lazy to do so, as you have accused others here of being), then you will see that my concerns are not silly matters but serious concerns.

You know, every poster who has written on this thread to defend WBN has been condescending and arrogant. You also come accross that way, as well extremely presumptuous and judgmental. Since when is a person with concerns automatically bitter? And how can you possibly judge that I or other posters may not be saved or producing no fruit in our lives or have impure hearts. You should be careful what assessments you make to people out of your own sense of loyalty to a man or organization. How wrong and hurtful. Also,I certainly am not cursing the WBN (or WB Congress). There is a difference between raising concerns or cautions about something or cursing it. Or have you been taught that to question WBN is sinful or a form of cursing? There are many organizations and churches whom I strongy support which ARE Godly. This one, though, is very disconcerting.

Lastly, perhaps you should reconsider your frivolous attitude toward posts that were written by people with serious concerns. To call them amusing and to laugh at the comments made is, again, extremely prideful and condescending. And if the concerns are valid, well then, you have just mocked some legitimately hurtful and wrong things that are going on and have found amusement at the hurts inflicted.

[oronde smith (209.94.216.154)]

I NEVER SAID THAT YOU WERE NOT SAVED I AM ASKING WHAT IS THE STATE OF YOUR OWN LIFE AND THE LIFE OF THE 'HURT' POSTERS...BECAUSE THE BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS BY THEIR FRUIT YOU SHALL KNOW THEM...THE FRUIT OF A LEADER'S MINISTRY IS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE FOLLOWING HIM NOT JUST HIS LIFE...AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE LIVES BEING ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE NORMAL WORKING PEOPLE THAT RAISE GOOD FAMILIES AND ARE DOING WELL IN LIFE AND DECLARING A POWERFUL KINGDOM LIFESTYLE.

IT IS FUNNY THAT YOU HAVE NOT SOUGHT TO DISAGREE WITH THE ACTIVITIES THAT I HAVE SAID ACTUALLY TAKE PLACE THAT LINE UP WITH THE WORD OF GOD...BUT YOU ONY SEEM TO WANT TO ATTACK WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE CONCERNS.

I FIND IT FUNNY THAT YOU HAVE A SITE DEDICATED TO LOOKING FOR SO CALLED HERESY..IN THE BIBLE THE ONLY people that dealt with heresy were apostles.

are you an apostle then? because you seem to think that you know it all as well....just like the so called super apostles...hmmmmm this is very curious indeed.

my friend, the issue is not whether people go to heaven...the bible clearly teaches that believe on THE LORD JESUS AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED...so i believe that once you have given your life to CHRIST THAT YOU ARE SAVED even if you don't agree with C-WBN doctrinal positions that is not the issue.....the issue is accomplishig the purposes of God and that not only has to do with doing actual stuff but in becoming more like CHRIST.

talk to you again soon

[oronde smith (209.94.216.154)]

hi again i did read your stuff and to be honest it is not unique to the church world pastors do nonsense all the time and mess up people's lives.
very sorry that it happened to you but it is not the first and it won't be the last. but i don't see why the entire C-WBN has to blamed it is not fair..I am sure that people from ypur churh have offened people do you think it fair if you were blamed for someone else's mistake..
I tried to look at the link to see who this Apostle from GLOBALTRANSFORMATION is , do you mind telling us his name...

talk to you again soon
bye

[Tiffer (81.156.165.182)]

I left a WBN church a month before there was any controversy about the church, because God moved me somewhere I could serve better. This spared me a lot of grief, as the pain of what has gone on has still affected me through my friends.

I want to emphasise that WBN have been very good to the church. Some people claim they always thought there was something dodgy going on but I don't believe this to be the case with the majority. They preached well, and didn't concentrate on money at all, and were very friendly to all who chatted to them. I have no problem with the term "prophet" or "apostle" as long as this does not mean what some people mean it to mean - it does not give anyone any super-authority, and cannot be self-imposed.

A month after I left they started getting more involved, and some church members started speaking publically about what was not being listened to privately. It started getting a bit nasty on both sides, people jumping to conclusions and wild accusations, much like are going on in this thread here.

My conclusion is this. There are strong biblical arguments why the teaching the church has had from WBN is not good and destructive, regardless of the intergrity of the members of WBN. If you want these I can oblige, but my main point is to those WBN supporters on this thread, that the people here have been hurt and are lashing out, and this is as inexcusable as the hurt done to them, but much of what they say is true despite the anger and bitterness. I too am hurting as many of my friends are still bickering, some are deep in the network and some are trying to change the network, and I don't know what to say or do as a member of a different church. I hate having to lower my voice when certain people walk past and having friends see me as someone with a Jezebel spirit. I hate people happily advertising the church at church fairs who I know are thinking about leaving, and I hate knowing that men I used to respect and have helped me enormously now spend their sermons ranting about those anglicans and the fact they still baptise their babies, when the church used to be in very friendly communion with an anglican church. I hate that I have no idea what to do or say and I have to constantly battle with myself not to tell people to run when they ask me what it is like.

I hate it all, and I pray that God comes and redeems the situation.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Orondie Smith:

I do not have a website of any kind. I don't know where you got that impression. I am just a poster here just like everyone else.

I do not think that I "know it all" by any means. Certainly not. I have simply only shared my experiences here and my legitimate concerns. I cannot speak to what you have reported of people living good lives in your church because I have never been there. That is why I chose not to argue against it. I can't argue against something I don't personally know about. They may very well be leading good lives.

However, my personal interaction with a leader in the WBN was not Godly and did not bear good fruits, as you keep emphasizing. His name, by the way, is Ian Chellan, and he represented the WBN and his own apostolic organization with the WBN network and the things he taught had error in them and what he did to support our pastor and help cover up the gross sins in the church and heaping further hurt on already damaged sheep was WRONG. And I don't agree with quite a number of things on the WBN website. So yes, I do have concerns that I feel are very legitimate. It appears that others have similar concerns as well, and we are all coming from separate areas and experiences, so that indicates that *something* is not right in the WBN. People ARE being hurt and things are twisted in the teachings. Yes, maybe in your experiences, you are seeing some good things happening. But just like my experiences do not negate the good in your experiences, your good experiences do not negate the awful things I and others have experienced.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Tiffer,

I am very sorry that you have been hurt as well. I can hear the pain and frustration in your post. I, too, know what it is like to have people who were at one time my dearest friends who are in a deteriorating situation. Once I left, I was cut off from them and labeled rebellious, jezebel, lukewarm, a liar, etc. Others that left were also labeled as such. It truly does hurt to be attacked for trying to expose the truth. I don't even recognize the actions of those who are left in my former church. I am very concerned for them and deeply saddened for my loss of relationships with them and for all the hurt done to all of us by some unrepentant people who are doing some evil things (and that reference did not refer to the WBN, but to my former pastor and a church member). I don't know what else to do at this point but pray for them, as I and others have tried over and over to reach our former church friends with the truth, to no avail.

I am truly sorry for your pain and frustration as well. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[oronde (209.94.221.20)]

hello anonymous and tiffer this will probably be the last time that we chat...

I hear you guys and am sorry to hear of the stress that you have undergone. The fact is that people tend to be very immature and allof what you are describing is immaturity on both sides.

you must understand that simply because you don't agree with something that does not make it wrong. I would really like if you could tell me what exactly you did not agree with as a bibilcal issue.

listen my experience is that I came out of a pentecostl church and left good friends but i still would relate to them when I see them I have no hard feelings against them and actually I don't care if they have any against me. I have to obey what I believe God is saying to me and so do you. You guys sound like good people who have just been hurt and betrayed.

My advice is move on with your life. Find God in some local church and community that you are comfortable with and love the Body of Christ regardless of whether or not you agree with everything. Remember Christ is building His church not man not you or me and He will accomplish His will.

Lastly men are not perfect and mistakes will always be made and things will always be misunderstood or misrepresented etc.

I know Ian Chellan though not personally and yes he is a Coordinator for C-WBN, although not a part of the Senior Leadership.

My experience is that people always disagree so you disapproval of C-WBN doctrine is not new people always disagree and that is your right and it is ok. I don't think it makes you silly or a devil worshipper or a jezebel....you just disagree and that is fine. So move on with your life and serve Christ.

Because I assure you my friends that is what I am doing I am not sitting and worrying about who agrees or disagrees I am seeking the kingdom as Christ admonishes.

So breathe...Tiffer and find new friends....find Christ again and let Him give you comfort and clarity and serve Him in spirit and truth.
bye now

[Tiffer (81.156.161.199)]

Yes, sorry guys, that was a bit emotional. And just to clarify I have never personally been accused of anything, only corporately (as in, a member of wbn labelled all who held my viewpoint as such), so I'm sorry if I implied I had been.

Thank you Oronde, and you are quite right, there is not one single thing in the Christian world which doesnt have some website or people on a chat forum like this one railing about its heresy. I think when assessing WBN it is obviously worrying that there are people saying they have ruined the school and condoned horrible deeds but they are only someones experience which could well have been exadgerrated or mis-understood, or people could simply be lying. My apology for implying I was accused of having a jezebel spirit is evidence of that.

That doesn't mean that there isn't something dodgy about it, it just means it can be blown out of proportion, and often what people label a cult is just a bad church, but that is for the individuals to decide. It's ok though oronde I don't need to find Christ again he has been with me all along, which is why I'm doing ok.

I would urge all who disagree with what WBN is doing in their churches/churches around them is to rely on scripture as much as possible, not collect up hundreds of little accusations which don't hold much water on their own, and be diligent in avoiding any gossipy nature in your dealings with it. By your fruits they will know them also.

[oronde (209.94.221.214)]

great tiffer I like the maturity very cool and I am very impressed with the response.
thanks for the demonstration of that level of maturity which is sometimes so rear to find these days....
bye and have a good life

[theresa (203.109.149.74)]

I would like to say there are some great, and not so great comments in here about the whole wbn situation. It is so sad that there are so many that are in the liking of the pharisees - and yes just to say the pharisee spirit in the churches still are alive to this day. They cause blindness to what God is really doing, They could not accept the new things that Jesus was doing. Is it the same today? Are we all so blind to what God is trying to do in the earth today? What is the ultimate goal that God is wanting us to attain. Why do we have to squabble among ourselves, Let God be God!! If you are tuned into the right frequency, you wouldn't have to argue, and judge something that God maybe, or may not be doing. Get yourselves right with God!! Do not judge lest you be judged. Love him eternally and always, he will guide you in the right paths.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Problem is a corrupt man will not give credit to God for what is God's works. A fallen man takes credit for what God has done and perverts God's word to bring discredit to the body of Christ. A bad church or a cult are the same. Just stay the hell away from both!
And don't listen to people who take scripture out of context to defend a cult. Warning others to stay away from a cult is not judging. It is a public service and a Christian's duty. If you warn someone against a cult, you are warning them away from Satan. A bad church = a cult. It is the blindness of the congregation that allowed it to become a bad church.
Christians need to always be vigilant against the threat of dangerous cults. Cults lead people away from God. Cults bring discredit to all Christians.
Non-Christians hear the gruesome details about a cult and gladly brush all Christians with the same brush. Save Christianity by fighting cults. Cults are the Al-Queda terrorists attacking the body of Christ!

[My Church Is A Cult! (198.81.26.106)]

What an idiotic post! "Cults are the Al-Queda terrorists attacking the body of Christ" and "Bad church = cult", leads to 'bad church' = Al-Queda terrorists attacking the body of Christ!

The primary thing that 'christians' should be protected from are ignorant people who are calling churches that they view as 'bad' as cults!

Who determines what a bad church is?

What was the Lord's view toward's a 'bad church'...as seen in Revelation 2 & 3?

What was the Lord's view towards Israel and her continual rebellion against Him?

What brings discredit to all Christians, and that which turns non-Christians off is the lack of unity and the constant back-biting and bickering as depicted on message boards like this.

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE YOUR CHURCH...OR DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR CHURCH...just leave it! It's that simple, you do not have to decide it is a cult to leave. Just say 'good-bye' and be on your way!

[CultBuster (205.188.117.20)]

Nice cult apology. The excuse that non Christians use to stay away from Christian beliefs and churches is cults. Like the Waco Wackos and Jonestown. People say if this is Christianity, then no way! Cults are the opposite of Christianity. They worship man, not God. They are legalistic pharisees. Not faith based born again believers. A bad church is a man worshipping works church. Any child could determine the difference from a Christian church and a cult. Everything Christ taught us and died for is denied in a cult. If you are in a cult, I'm coming to shut you down!

[My Church Is A Cult! (152.163.101.12)]

I think maybe Martin Luther was a cult leader, as well as John and Charles Wesley, and especially that one-eyed black guy - Seymour who led the Azusa Street thing. C'mon, think about it: a one-eyed man who is called See More!! If that doesn't sound cultish, manipulative, and the essence of mind-control, I do not not know what would be!

And that Hank Hannegraff guy. THE Bible Answer Man! If that isn't some mind control, too. When Paul talked about renewing the mind, do you think he was becoming cultic? Especially when he said that people who disagreed with him should be anathema, and that people were not to even eat a meal with those who disagreed with his teachings. He even made the Corinthians feel bad for not sowing financially into his ministry, calling them immature babies. He even called himself an apostle, as well as Timothy, and Apollos, and Barnabas.

No, I think I like my cult church! It reminds me of Paul and the guys. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[CultBuster (64.12.117.20)]

That is one of the many lies the cultists use to disguise their evil. Claim that real Christians (like you mentioned) were cultists. Sorry, won't wash. Try some other sucker. Christianity is not a cult. A cult is not Christianity. A cult is satan's tool.

[Anonymous (213.173.175.4)]

"Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him"
J.R.R. Tolkien

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Cults don't oppose the Dark Lord. They are the orcs, they work for him. They are his minnions, doing his evil.

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

To 198.81.26.106 -
Have you read through this entire thread? There are numerous different people, including myself, who detail our experiences and the unbiblical teachings, doctrine, and leadership we encountered. It's much more than just not "liking" or "agreeing" with our church, as you wrote. The way you phrased it was to the effect that if we don't like our church or agree with it, we should just leave and be quiet about it. That makes it sound as if people here have petty, meaningless concerns about the WBN and its affiliated churches/ministries. Errant doctrine, teaching, and leadership is nothing trivial or petty. It's dangerous to the Body of Christ and it is appropriate to share those concerns and warn others about them. Have you even read the WBN website?

[My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20)]

Of course I have read their website! My church is part of this Cult Group. Don't you see the Username: My Church is a Cult!

Have you read their website?

Absolutely solid Biblically-based in all areas. Give me on instance from their/our website that is no Biblically correct.

One of the posters said that a 'bad church' = a cult. My point was who determines what a 'bad' church is? Baptists think a Pentecostal Church is a 'bad' church.

Do you see my point? Congress-WBN churches and ministries are theologically conservative believing in and standing on basic credal Christianity.

Any and every church has inaccurate leaders that do sinful and wrong things. And any and every church has people who leave a church because of the wrong reasons, but who say it is because their church is 'bad'.

Its goofy! If your church is 'bad' LEAVE IT. If you are BAD, change!

[Anonymous (24.39.137.146)]

"Cults don't oppose the Dark Lord. They are the orcs, they work for him. They are his minnions, doing his evil".

That's neat..I'm going home taking out my guitar and composing some music around that! Lots of cults, do in fact, get their bearings from 'the dark side' (look no further than scientology)

peace,
zee

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Hey, I'm a guitarist / songwriter also. I have a copyright on that lyric line. It's called "The Song Zee Tried To Steal From Me". Write your own.

[Anonymous (65.219.238.146)]

ok, ok, it's yours, but i want an audio clip
peace,
zee

[CultBuster (64.12.117.20)]

A total restructuring of the formation of the global church making obsolete the present shapes and emphases as God releases fresh revelation of His purposes and desires in the earth

A complete radical renovation of the mentality of the Church globally as God removes all aspects of limitation from our faith

A recognition that we are a generation of destiny coming rapidly into the realization that we are in the best position to actually bring an end to the ages in our time

A radical movement away from dead religious tradition and local church limitation to a Kingdom reality that invades every aspect of life

A positive bringing in of the mass of ordinary believers into the reality of ministry thus radically broadening the base of the assault upon enemy positions in every area of life

A complete restructuring of the way the Kingdom is financed and the recognition and faith for huge financial input into the Kingdom for the push to the end of all things

A ferocious thrust into governmental prayer across the nations of the earth as a tidal wave of prayer and expectation sweeps through demonic territories world-wide

A co-ordinated invasion of all territories internationally that have not yet received the declaration of the gospel

A deliberate, strategized heightened warfare against illegitimate spiritual thrones world-wide as God gives the Church insight and heightened powers of discernment

A purification of ministry and ministers as new leadership is shifted into place by the Lord as a global reshuffling of leadership by the Lord is underway in the Church

The bringing back to effective recognition and operation of prophets and apostles to complete the function of the five governmental ministries of the Church

The achievement of a great momentum in the Church that will push it through to the ultimate end

The global harvesting of the earth of souls for the Kingdom as God closes the ages down.

It quacks like a cult. It looks like a cult. It smells like a cult. It feels like a cult. By God, it IS a cult. These so called "Apostles" are dangerous. Shut them down!

[88 (65.70.108.177)]

Wow that about explains it.

[My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20)]

"Wow, that explains it." What does that mean. Everyone of those items listed by 'Cultbuster' are expositions of Scripture.

I hear no cult quacking, just scripture be interpreted. What exactly would be unbiblical, heretical or in error in those points listed?

Don't just say stupid cliches' like 'I quacks like a cult. It looks like a cult. It smells like a cult. It feels like a cult. By God, it IS a cult."

NO...by YOU it is a cult.

If the Word of God is the absolute foundation for all of our judgments, where in the Word are these positions in opposition?

For Example: "The global harvesting of the earth of souls for the Kingdom as God closes the ages down."

This sounds like Matthew 24.14 to me

It is interesting that your 'cut and paste' job did not include the Scriptural references that are also on the Congress-WBN site in connection to these points.

Typical 'cultbusting' deception and manipulation.

If it quacks like manipulation, it smells like manipulation, it feels like manipulation, by ME, it is manipulation.

"Shut them down"!?

My goodness, get a real job and a life. Go win someone to Jesus!

[CultBuster (172.134.223.136)]

What do you think I'm trying to do? You are the someone I'm trying to bring to Christ. You'll never know Him following these false prophets. Get your head out of these con men's asses and get to know the real mediator between you and God. Jesus Christ. If these guys are apostles then Michael Jackson is heterosexual.

[My Church Is A Cult (64.12.117.20)]

My dear perverted Cultbuster,

You over and over choose not to address the actual issues at hand. You are not dealing with the Biblical data at all. Maybe you cannot, maybe you don't want to, or maybe you choose not to.

Regardless, this is no dialogue.

God/Jesus/Holy Spirit bless you. Goodbye.

[InChrist (151.200.159.215)]

Just a thought : I wonder if Scriptures were quoted against Jesus, and If he was labelled negatively when he protected the Lady (adulterer) from her "stoners" by telling them "let he who has no sin cast the first stone"

Let's all look at a matter and judge correctly everyone for we ourselves will be judged.

[InChrist (151.200.159.215)]

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:32 pm
Just a thought : I wonder if Scriptures were quoted against Jesus, and If he was labelled negatively when he protected the Lady (adulterer) from her "stoners" by telling them "let he who has no sin cast the first stone"

Let's all look at a matter and judge correctly everyone for we ourselves will be judged.
(this is in reference to the allegations that the organization cwbn gave the pastor another chance)

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

I am the one who wrote about the member of the WBN who gave my former paster another chance. The pastor was completely unrepentant and continuing in sin and illegal activity, even at the point the WBN personnel helped replace him back in leadership position. He still continues in illegal and ungodly activity to this day, and refuses to repent and cease what he is doing.

The Lord Jesus told the lady (adulterer) to "go and sin no more". That is the key. This did not happen in the situation with my former pastor. He was just restored, period.

Since you know absolutely nothing about the circumstances, you might use caution before you send such advice out as you did. I was intricately involved in this sad situation, and know the ins and outs, unfortunately. I wish I didn't.

[Getting to the Root (205.188.117.20)]

Dear Anonymous,

I have seen your posts all over these message boards. And you always say the same thing. I know you have been hurt, wounded, and disillusioned, but you are not going get any healing through this process, nor is the church you were part of going to get any healing, nor is the unrepentant pastor/leader going to get healed through this.

Have you sent your thoughts and concerns to Dr. Noel Woodroffe, or someone else in WBN's leadership? Because the implication you are portraying is that this WBN leader's inaccurate restoration of this pastor is agreed upon and condoned by WBN as a whole.

This is not only unfair, but I would surmise not correct.

You have no right to indict all of WBN because of one person's wrong actions, unless you can determine that it is WBN policy. Should you not take your offense to WBN leadership to whom this WBN representative is accountable?

I know for a fact that the WBN leader you are saying incorrectly restored the pastor is not an 'apostle' in the network. And, he is accountable to the apostolic team of WBN.

I am not minimizing your hurt and/or anger, I just don't think filling message boards with it is going to help you or anyone.

Sincerely

A friend

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Getting to the Root -

If you have read my posts "all over these message boards", as you put it, then you would see that my concerns about the WBN involve more than the one issue of the "apostle" restoring my former pastor to leadership. I had serious concerns about the doctrine and messages taught by the apostle long before the situation with my pastor ever came to light.

Yes, the apostle was part of the WBN leadership at the time he restored the pastor. He was listed by name on the former WBN website as one of their own leaders in one tier of their leadership structure. He is not listed by name on their new website they just revamped, but neither are some of the other leaders formerly listed. So, at present, he may or may not be leader; it's hard to tell without the full leadership listing.

No, I have not written to Noel Woodroffe. I have nothing to do with the apostle who restored the pastor, as he openly dismissed and belittled my (and others') concerns in front of the former leadership of the church. He later dismissed me from communicating with him altogether. I do not have anything to do with my former pastor, either. I do not want anything to do with either of them, and contacting Noel Woodroffe might suck me back into the situation.

Why you singled out my posts, I don't know. Others on here have their own concerns, and have shared their own experiences as have I. That is what these boards are for.

Lastly, to call yourself "Getting to the Root" and to sign off as "a friend" is very, very presumptuous. It is condescending, arrogant, and shallow of you to think you can get to the "root" of anything having to do with me or my experiences, since you don't even know me.

[My Church Is A Cult (205.188.117.20)]

Dear Anonymous attacking 'Getting to the Root".

My what a temper you have. 'Condescending, arrogant, and presumptuous'. Such strong words.

How can you say that you want to be sucked back into the situation when you continue to spread your version and knowledge of it all over the message boards?

What you do not want to do is to really deal with it fully and completely. If you have truly been offended and hurt by the so-called 'apostle' (as you called him, although he is never listed or defined as such within WBN, then you have a biblical responsibility to communicate with those to whom he is accountable. Unless you are willing to do that, you have no right to continue to talk about it.

If you don't want to be involved in it, then forget it, move on and drop it. If you want to continue to defame and attack Congress WBN and its theology, practice, structure, etc, (in the name of this event in TX) then be honorable and allow them to fix and correct the situation.

It is too easy to write stuff on the internet, but not have to really deal with it, or be accountable for your words.

This is and has always been my point in posting on these ridiculous sites. They do not fix anything, neither do they help anyone. They simply are a means for people to unbiblically spew and gossip from their own offended perspectives.

Sincerely,

Not claiming to be your friend

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Apostles? Blasphemy!

[Anonymous (4.10.172.241)]

What *you* spew is venemous. I have read many of your posts, and you are very judgmental to many people on here. You seem to have made it your self-appointed personal mission to attack and belittle posters who share their hurts and concerns here. You claim that this site is ridiculous, by your own words, yet you post on here very frequently. Go somewhere else if you find these boards so ridiculous. You hold no credibility in giving advice whatsoever. I have nothing more to say to you, except that I have just as much right to post on here as anyone else, and at least I don't judge people's experiences and concerns on here and add fuel to the hurt.

[My Church Is A Cult (205.188.117.20)]

Wow! A little temper? 'Condescending, arrogant, and shallow'? I think Getting to the Root was trying to help!

I cannot believe that you do not want to be 'sucked' back into the situation. You are airing it (names and all!) all over these messages boards.

If you do not want to really deal with the issue, then you should be quiet about it. OR, the better thing would be to biblically deal with those to whom the so-called apostle is accountable. The reason is that you are not just condemning a specific pastor and/or leader in a specific situation. You are using that situation to indict Congress WBN and its related ministries and people. If you beef is with Congress WBN, then deal with it. If you beef is just with the 'apostle' (who is not an apostle) who falsely restored your former pastor, then post you complaints on a thread about Bad Former Pastors.

That is my primary point about all of these sites! They simply allow people to vent and spew their opinions and gossip from their own wounded perspectives without being held accountable for their hurtful words. These sites do nothing to help, protect, or inform anyone. They simply spread half-truths, hearsay, and bitterness.

People who have be truly hurt, and I know that there are many, often say things from their perspective that does nothing to either heal themselves, or help others.

If you are done with it (the entire painful situation), then be done with it. If not, deal with it properly!

Sincerely,

Not Claiming To Be Your Friend

[Anonymous (4.10.172.241)]

I was wrong - I do have one more thing to say to you: You must indeed have some unresolved bitterness, anger, or hurt of your own to attack so many posters here as you do, and to title yourself "My Church is a Cult" in such a mocking, derogatory way. People like you who make it their mission to make light of others' hurt and to offer judgmental, unsoliticited, self-righteous advice usually are the ones with the greatest amount of unresolved anger.

If you don't like these boards and think that they are so ridiculous and a waste of time, then why do you continue to post? You seem to think your job is to debunk anyone who believes there are cultic warning signs to any movement or cult. Do you really think your methods of being the self-appointed corrector will sway people to think this site is "ridiculous"? Are you trying to open people's eyes to your beliefs? Because if so, being cold, sarcastic, and critical won't do it. You are creating more hurt here, and you just look, well, bitter and callous.

Now, I'm done. I won't talk to you anymore. I've seen too many people bullied or silenced by your kind too many times. So quick to defend the ones who have done the harm and so quick to add injury to those harmed. Why? You might ask yourself that.

[My Church Is A Cult (205.188.117.20)]

The reason you are so angry at me, as opposed to other posters who are way off base, is because you know that what I am saying is not incorrect, but correct.

No where in my posts am I mocking or derogatory. I am simply pointing out the dangers and misuse of these types of sites.

I title myself "My Church Is A Cult" because according to all of you, my church is a cult. Without even knowing my church, leaders, or doctrine, automatically, because we are a WBN church, we are cult. That's exactly my point.

STOP CALLING PEOPLE AND CHURCHES YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CULTS!

You have every right to air your concerns and hurts and wounds, but to label ad hoc WBN churches a cults is not only in error, but mean spirited and reactionary.

You react so strongly to me because you know that you should not be talking about people, even via the internet and a 'cult message board' without doing what the Lord Jesus has said you should do. I never said they were a waste of time

You have no idea what you are talking about, except in your one situation. I am defending people from yours and others attacks. Does that make me a bully? I do not think so.

I know what an attack of being called 'a cult' can do to a church, families, and long-term friends. It destroys people who were knit together in God's will. It makes people mean-spirited. There is nothing more painful or wounding than sincerely trying to follow the Lord Jesus and then to be called heretical or a cult by close friends or family. And I am not talking about being called a cult because of being involved with JW's or the Moonies, or Heaven's Gate, etc. I am talking about people who believe in the Lord Jesus' virgin birth, sinless life, suffering, death, burial and resurrection, and future return and resurrection.

So, relax a little. Don't react from your hurts so much. If you are in a healthy church now, enjoy it and let God use you. Stop attacking so much because of your past experience.

[Raphael (193.5.216.124)]

It's funny to see how Getting to the root and My Church Is A Cult are speaking and giving answers.... it's just looking the same than these teachers and apostles of wbn who rarely answer your questions (ok, I'm speaking about those that I have heard and seen only....), but give you a super-answer who mean nothing but confuse your mind. It's easy to speak only about the prolem of this brother about is former pastor and never try to say anything about all the others concerns about wbn.

Have a nice day

[Anonymous (128.194.115.135)]

Raphael-

Thanks for what you wrote. I agree with you. There are plenty of varying concerns on this board from people who see red flags go up about the WBN. I tried twice to iterate that though the incidents with my former pastor are legitimate warning signs on there own, I have also written here about other, separate concerns I have about the WBN. I had saw red flags WAY before the situation with my former pastor occurred. These are concerns about the doctrinal, teaching, and leadership structure of the WBN, which are apparently shared here by lots of others who have posted. I guess it is easier for "Getting to the Root" and "My Church is a Cult" (who, by the way, share the same IP number- might they be the same individual?) to attack people's concerns and experiences and create diversion or confusion than to plainly address the other concerns

You have a nice day, too, Raphael.

[Andrew (209.94.195.96)]

People How can we explain sight to a blind man?
Only God can open these blind eyes !!

[Anonymous (172.160.113.55)]

"My cult is a church".. and "Getting to the root" both are posted from Trinidad. Probably Noel Woodruff himself.

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

It is interesting to hear proclaimed university western-educated trained persons indicating that they cannot understand the language of the preaching of the Congress WBN when all across the world in so-called "lesser-developed" countries people are coming into great understanding and clarity. I believe that the Congress WBN relates to about 600 churches in the Democratic Republic of Congo for example and the growth of the understanding of the people and the evidence of a transformed christian life with powerful evengelistic response is very well documented.

Also there has been outreach into Sudan, several countries of the Middle East ( in the midst of Muslim fundamentalism where many preachers are afraid to go)like Iraq for example where the Congress WBN is establishing a center, many African nations where big-name comfortable western preachers do not go - countries like Burkina Fasso, Mali, Republic of Niger where people in depressed circumstances and who are supposed to be " lesser-educated" attend the Breakthrough Schools of Ministry operated by the Congress WBN in about 20 nations around the world. All these people have no problem in understanding the word preached to them.

In addition the message of Reformation and the gospel of the Kingdom proclaimed by Dr Woodroffe and the representatives of the Congress WBN is translated into dialects across the world, and into other languages like French, Russian, Spanish, Romanian, Japanese,Bulgarian to mention a few and all the people understand and do not have the problems that you English-speaking western educated people seem to have. What then is the problem?

The Bible says that wisdom is justified by her children. In another place "By their fruit you shall know (identify and discern) them". The reports of new maturity, christian growth, transformed churches, salvation among many thousands, healings and saved marriages, invigorated leadership, impacted communities and indeed many tired and dissillousioned pastors that have been re-charged and encouraged back into the ministry come from all parts of the world.

Did you people even read the websites and hear the values expressed by the leadership of the Congress WBN? Did you go to the Elijah centre site? Did you even order and listen to the teachings, read the books on prayer , church development and prophetic ministry written by Dr Woodroffe.

Did you read the book The Ultimate Warrior which is one of the best books I have read on personal holiness and the balanced, vital christian life? Do you realize how much inaccuracy and foolishness you have spouted in these comments that can be disproved by simply getting the real information?

Why not visit his home base in Trinidad, Caribbean, as many leaders from around the world do and talk to and see the lifestyles of the people who are beiing built up in Christ there. I have been there personally and I have been amazed at the level of understanding in even the children as they are taught the ways of the Lord. The youths in Trinidad base are beyond compare! Their men's ministry Hebron is filled with men that any church in the world would want to have. Amaziing men of commitment and purpose.

The women of Elijah Centre are all leaders and absolutely excellent examples of Christ-centred womanhood! I have been there and this report is absolutely true. You can go for yourself and seee for yourself. They welcome visitors and even arrange acces for them to various groups so they can prove the value of the ministry for themselves.

The emphasis in Elijah Centre is on the reality of the holy walk of faith. That is emphasized in almost every service and especially when Dr Woodroffe is home from a trip. If that church is an expression of his quality and teachings then he MUST be doing something very good indeed!

IN addition I understand that the Congress is involved in advancing the Kingdom in practical ways around the world - for example developing a leadership institute in Haiti; projects in Kenya; work against AIDS in West Africa; in a deprived community in Trinidad itself. The Congress WBN also connects ot Aborigines in Australia, Maoris in New Zealand, Ketchi Indians in Guatemala and other forgotten groups.

In any global work there could be misrepresentation by a few. I do not doubt that soome people misrepresent the good name and values of Dr Woodroffe and the Congress but then some of the coments, attitudes, bitter values on this site misrepresent Christ himself and yet Christ is untarnished and TRUE.

I hope that this takes this discussion which had had its low points and high points to a new level of sober thinking, purity of heart and balanced approach.

If you are uninformed it is better to withhold judgment, investigate carefully and then speak or not to speak at all.

[Anonymous (172.148.62.15)]

All of that apostolic babble above spells one thing....... C U L T.

[Anonymous (203.118.133.199)]

What an ignorant silly twit!!!!!!
It spells one thing for you ... F.O.O.L.

[Anonymous (172.148.62.15)]

We'll see who the fool is when you realize you've been sucked into that wbn/congress man worshipping cult and don't know how to get out. When you see the feet of clay these self proclaimed apostles have. Then you will realize that only Jesus is the only perfect man who ever lived. And you should have been following Christ and not man.
This insane scheme to try to revolutionize the Christian Church is another plot of satan to destroy the body of Christ. But your blind worship of man prevents you from seeing the truth. Noel Woodroffe is insane and you are following his madness. Get Out! You've been warned.

[Anonymous (203.118.133.195)]

Ok Anon 172. I just wanted all the readers of this thread to see how blind and bitter you are. You do not respond to facts or to suggestions of a proper biblical response. You simply spew warnings and accusations without validating them with a biblical principle or biblical methods. You condemn Woodroffe as insane without proof or without communicating with him. Write Woodroffe, get a response from him to your issues and then bring them back to this thread or shut up and go away!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Prove to me that it is not a cult. Here is the Factnet definition of a cult. One by one, explain to me how wbn/congress does not fit this criteria.

A) FACTNet uses specific criteria to determine if a mind control system has been used, and does not suggest organizations are destructive or dangerous cults without careful research and determination that the evidence fits definite criteria. These criteria are threefold.

The first set of criteria comes from the group' use of a specific set of mind control tactics. Please see "A technical overview of mind control tactics" at http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm for details or see http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html for a shorter version. These two documents are derived from the work of Dr. Margaret Singer professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley the acknowledged leading authority in the world on mind control and cults.

The second set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems, as defined by Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform. Please see "Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought Reform" also at http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm. If most points in this model are being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult.

The third set of criteria have to do with defining common elements of destructive and dangerous cults. The following section will help clarify what some of those specific elements and criteria are.

Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and
domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members
and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social
contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

Tell me why, point by point, why YOU do not think wbn/congress does not fit this criteria.

[Anonymous (208.163.57.132)]

Lets all hear from the man himself them make a judgement. This message is on the official C-WBN Website

Globalisation & Human Destiny
by Dr. Noel Woodroffe


The world is changing and demanding changes in the way in which we do things. But the most important changes are occurring in the way in which we think, in the structures of our mentality and the ways in which we educate ourselves....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The world is changing and demanding changes in the way in which we do things. We have to live, raise families, develop systems for the future, secure the future of our seed in the present changing world in which we live. But the most important changes are occurring in the way in which we think, in the structures of our mentality and the ways in which we educate ourselves. This shift in the structure of our internal intangible environment will cause significant and far-reaching changes in our external physical environment.

Proverbs 23: 7As a man thinks in his heart so is he.

The key principle here is that the internal environment determines the outer environment.

The totality of the vast changes occurring in the planet, removing borders to human imagination, thinking and human activity and endeavor is called collectively by the term: Globalization.

Globalization is driven by economic issues and by the need to expand markets to the ultimate limit. The core reality of all “Babylonian” expansionism is lust for money and the power over men that it brings. This lust is rooted deep within the satanic systems of the economic dimension of the spirit realm.

Rev 18 :9-13

"The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.‘

"And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. (NKJ)

Ultimate expansion means the obliteration of all barriers to movement outwards or the destruction of all preserved values that oppose the free flow of commerce, business, trade, finance and the control of the lives of men. Whether these values are national boundaries, cultures, trade practices, government controls, national values or language differentiations – all must be weakened and removed to facilitate the free flow of the market without hindrance.

Globalization has become a ‘movement’, but ‘movements’ in the earth are not explained in terms of economic principles, or graphs or statistical analysis. They become expressed in terms of intangible human experience. Thus Globalization, which is a massive force of human thinking, attitudes and realizations, has at its core spiritual roots which deeply affect the outcomes of the human mind and spirit. Let us consider the impact of Globalization at the human and personal level.

Impact of globalization in human terms
One of the major impacts of this movement is the loss of the integrity of community. The lifestyles, cultures and the generational future of entire communities are being traded for the favor of the great god of economic gain. The small island of Dominica in the Caribbean is a prime example of a nation facing the danger of extermination as the forces of globalization take hold of the earth. This small nation depends for its survival on the production of bananas. The USA in its efforts to regularize trade practices across the earth has been pressing for the removal of all subsidies and for the removal of preferential pricing in the banana market. The preferential price offered by the United Kingdom to Dominica for its bananas was the result of a sense of responsibility of the past colonial power to its ex-colonies. It was paternalistic as opposed to the present “let the strong survive – attitude” driven by the mentality of the market.

Another severe impact is the destruction of the identity of the individual: as cultures fragment under the pressure of cultural invasion by the stronger forces of the market. Markets are bound up in cultural values – the globally recognized symbol of the unique shape of the Coca Cola bottle represents much more than a tasty and refreshing drink. It communicates the connection with the values and material benefits of a powerful culture. The mile-long lines outside a newly opened McDonald’s restaurant in Moscow represent much more than a yearning for a good hamburger. In India the invasion of foreign cultures under the umbrella of globalization has resulted in a new generation that does not hold to the strongly held beliefs of their forefathers as is seen in the rise of slaughterhouses in India and the consumption of the flesh of cows. In Japan severe identity violation is taking place as a formerly disciplined culture fragments under the earthquake of globalized value systems and young girls forsake school in favor of sexual prostitution for money to purchase designer sneakers and brand-name handbags.

The philosophy of capitalism upon which the globalization movement is built transmits values that are corrosive to the human spirit - competitiveness, character assassination, one-upsmanship, individualism, with accompanying human stress, uncertainty, demand for personal wealth, consumerism and all the degenerative human attitudes and values that go along with it. The values of former community based systems - individual contentment, mutual support, regard for environment, communal production, community ownership, strong personal identity have long since been eroded.

Destruction of coherent moral standards to behavior
Moral values are dismantled as the power of the “enterprising individual” (read this as: “the break all the rules individual”) is lifted high on the scale. Adherence to value systems that require personal government, and respect for established codes carried down through generations is now regarded as archaic and a threat to individual pursuit of unfettered self-expression. Even the restraints of the moral law of God as indicated in the Word of God are regarded as culturally ancient and totally irrelevant to the mentality and development of the modern man. Horror of horrors …there goes God!

These unclean prevailing concepts express themselves through the forms of popular culture: movies, songs, written literature, videos etc. and the mind of a formless modern generation is shaped into conformity with the corrupt principles of a global Babylonian lifestyle in societies as distant as China is from Brazil.

The Global demand for Change
Globalization preaches ‘change’ but that change is not a requirement to align oneself with an accepted divine code. It is change that calls for the loosening of all moorings, the breaking of all fetters and the dismantling of all things that restrain the individual from full selfish pursuit.

In the midst of all this the family unit is dismantled, sexual codes are absolutely loosened so that now we see the legitimizing of homosexual marriages and sinful unions, the lowering of the age of consensual sex and the legal age for alcohol consumption to a new ridiculous low in nations across the earth.

The Vine of the Earth;

Rev 14:14-19

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."

19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The vine of the earth represents the abundant fruit of all the evil in the systems of Babylon. They are ordained by prophetic decree to come to full ripeness and manifestation in the earth before the end. We must note that the ripeness of the earth’s vine and the coming to full expression of all Babylonian values in this system of mortality is also associated with the expression of the rulership of God and His ability to express Himself in final and utter judgment. Without these prophetic guidelines or signposts we would be lost in our ability to discern correctly in the earth. A ripened vine of the earth is a signal of the proximity of the judgment of God. “The time has come to reap”, the angel cried. God’s time frames for divine action are still locked on and accurate no matter how desperate the seasons of the earth become. In order to function in correct discernment of the times we must function from the level of prophetic truth about the nature of the world in which we live and not operate from the lower level of natural and rational observation. From this perspective globalization and all its shaping power is part of the prophesied development of the vine of the earth!

The True Vine:

Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches that live in Him.

John 15:1-5

1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Thus the expression of the accurate vine of the earth is the lifestyle of the Kingdom lived through our mortal lives in the earth by the divine power of the Spirit that flows from Christ the Vine. The attachment of our lives to His (the branches joined to the Vine) expressed in powerful lifestyles in the earth shaped by the principles of the Kingdom are the literal manifestation of the true Vine in its fullness. He is the vine and we are the branches.

Both vines are coming into full growth in the earth as we head to a divine climax of the ages. So in a sense there are two aspects of globalization. There is on one hand a globalization that is seen of men, described by economists, discussed by scholars, impacting the natural systems of the earth that is the manifestation of the corrupt fullness of the vine of the earth.

But there is another ‘globalization’ – that of the Kingdom of God, seen clearly by those who possess eyes of the Spirit and the discernment of God. It also impacts all the systems of the earth but it is not powered by economic indicators or social concerns. It is powered by the apostolic/prophetic purposes of God which are breaking barriers, smashing all limitations that seek to hinder the advance of the Kingdom and spreading into the open hearts of men all across the earth. This is the true globalization that is of the Spirit not of the flesh. We are part of that move of the Lord. The global dimension of God’s eternal purpose grows first within our hearts removing all inner limitation to the fulfillment of God’s ordained purposes within us. Then it externalizes in powerful acts of creativity and obedience as we go forth in a conquering spirit to enforce the will of God on a disobedient earth.

[Anonymous (172.146.233.223)]

INSANITY! GET OUT!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

The philosophy of capitalism upon which the globalization movement is built transmits values that are corrosive to the human spirit - competitiveness, character assassination, one-upsmanship, individualism, with accompanying human stress, uncertainty, demand for personal wealth, consumerism and all the degenerative human attitudes and values that go along with it. The values of former community based systems - individual contentment, mutual support, regard for environment, communal production, community ownership, strong personal identity have long since been eroded.

This paragraph above demonstrates that wbn/congress is a communist front organization.
Get out!

[Anonymous (172.208.66.206)]

Community ownership = communism. Get out!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Communal production = communism. Duh!? Karl Marx could not have said it better. WBN/Congress propaganda is like reading the "Communist Manisfesto".
Replace freely elected government and free enterprise with a one world, communist, church run dictatorship? I don't think so! These self appointed "apostles" are on a meglomaniac, ego driven power trip. I repeat..... Get out!

[Anonymous (62.255.32.15)]

I haven't followed this thread for a little while now, but what seemed to start as a genuine discussion about people's concerns and thoughts has degraded to an onslaught of personal attacks and unfounded accusations.

Let's try to get some focus here. We're called to 'love one another as yourself', so let's try talking out of love for each other.

I don't want to attack CWBN or defend it because I don't know everything there is to know about it. After all... Who am I to judge the 'arrogance' of the apostles? What authority to I have to direct other christians towards or away from a CWBN church? To presume that I fully understand all the scriptures would be arrogant on my part. The important thing is for US to be humble (Philippians 2:5-11).

Don't get too hung up on the website. Websites are an ok starting point, but they don't represent EVERYTHING about a person or group of people. I know that websites can represent people, but they cannot fully convey a person's or apostolic group's heart.

It would be good to hear from Noel himself on this, but not until we start approaching this topic with love.

In the words of Raphael...

Have a nice day http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Simon (193.129.185.28)]

There were three blind men that came across an Elephant, and all three decided they would describe to each other what the elephant looked like. So one blind man touched the elephants foot and declared to the other an elephant is tall, round and thick like the trunk of a tree, this is what an Elephant looks like, the second blind man who was touching the side of the elephant, declared that the first blind man had got it wrong, an elephant was big and wide like a mountain, this is what an elephant looked like, the third blind man, who was touching the elephants trunk declared that the other two were completely mistaken and that an Elephant was long and thick like a snake and that the other two must be touching something else. This caused an argument to break out. Along came an abled sighted person who inquired what they were arguing about, upon hearing what they declared an elephant to be, he correctly described what an elephant looked like and that how they were defining the elephant was based on the misinterpretation of a couple of elements that the elephant was composed off. The three blind men then insulted the other man and called him crazy.

People very often judge things and belive they have the correct picture according to the little part of perspective that they aqquire.

To all of you who are attacking CWBN in this rather childish and unloving manner. If you are so sure that CWBN is a cult and heresy you must then know what the truth is, so I would like you to explain to me what is the true function and correct doctrinal teachings of the church, so that myself and other people who are part of CWBN can then know the truth.

Food for thought. when the methodist church was established it was declared a cult and heresy ba the already established church - how many methodists do we have here? When the baptist church was established it was also declared to be a cult and heresy - how many baptists do we have in here, when pentecostal churches were established they were also branded the same, when the assemblies of God and Elim were established they received the same branding, same for the Seventh day adventists - how many people here belong to them. In fact the longest running church is the Roman Catholic Church that declared all of these other denominations I have stated to be false, so if we are to take our measure from established churches then the Roman Catholic Church is right and everything else is wrong. How many belive that the Roman Catholic Church are the true Church. So if all of you who belong to these now established churches that were once branded cults, sects and heretical churches now see them to be correct, established and in the truth - what right do you have to brand CWBN in this way? Sure some of the values and teachings sound like communism but if you would look at the things it is accomplishing the freedom it is releasing many people in 66 nations into and the good it has brought to these 66 nations you will see it is far from communism that oppreses and enslaves.

[Anonymous (172.151.130.196)]

I don't care if it is 666 nations, we do not need or want a one world government run by communist apostles. Who said these jokers are apostles? Their manisfesto jargon is not scriptural. It is nonsensical cultbabble. They feed on people's fears that this is the endtimes. Shame on them. If you are in cbn/wc, get out!

[Simon (193.129.185.28)]

You are greatly mistaken 172, there has never been teaching from CWBN that says we are setting up a one world government or that we are working towards it, neither has there been any play on peoples fears of the end times.

Before you go spouting off and attacking CWBN saying they are this or that, present proof of what you are exclaiming.

As you have not answered my question, is this because you don't want to or because you can't? If you are so sure of what you proclaim CWBN to be - please for the sake of all of us poor, blind wretched, brainwashed, communist CWBN members tell us what is the truth and what denomination or religious institution should we belong to.

I am not going to defend CWBN to you, as I see that no matter what myself or anybody else could say you would still attack CWBN with insults and unnecessary aggressive words. So If I am so blind and brainwashed and you can see this, then you must be standing in the light, part of a church or denominational movement that has got it right, so please inform me of what this is.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

No church has got it 100% right. That will only be in heaven. Cwbn claims to be the only true church and from it's website the flames of religious, political and economic revolution are being fanned. The closest thing I have read to this website is not in the Bible. But in the writings of Karl Marx. Wake up! Get out!

[Simon (193.129.185.28)]

Although a few of you believe CWBN to be a communist organization, you are entitled to your beliefs, I for one who have been part of a Church affiliated with CWBN have never met so many people with such an uprightness, humility, precision in godly living, integrity and knowledge of the Scriptures and the things of God whose lifestyle are defined by values, morals and ethics that are found in the word of God; which is common all through the network not just in the leaders but in all those submitting to their leadership. Since being in CWBN I have found myself in a spiritually healthy atmosphere which has helped me grow more in the things of God and in maturity then I have ever done before in my walk with God. I have never been forced into anything, sure I have had things in my lifestyle that were biblically wrong challenged, but I have never been forced to do anything, we are (we being the members of the congregation) currently challenged not to just take what is being taught and accept it. but to take notes, pray about it, study it and challenge anything we do not understand or do not agree with. Everything that is taught is open to discussion so that all can have a deeper and precise understanding of the word of God, and the values, ethics and morals of God that is found in his word. We are all challenged and encouraged to work towards the fullness of the stature of Christ - which is perfection, that we be like Him, so that we can effectively go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that Jesus has commanded us (Matt 28:18 NIV)Such a deep level of understanding and precision of the things of God I have not found anywhere else but in the network of CWBN.

Ok you will find some individuals even leaders who are affiliated with CWBN make mistakes and get it wrong, and cause hurtful situations to arise, and these should always be made known to the leadership and corrected as quickly as possible, after all we are all human and make mistakes, and Noel will back me up on this and affirm that even he makes mistakes, he doesn't claim to be infallible (unlike some religious leaders) and is not regarded as infallible, Noel is our spiritual father (just as Paul was the spiritual father of others) who we recognise to have a grace from God that validates him in his position and office as Apostle, this is not a position he has claimed for himself, it is a position that Godly people around him have released him into as his fruits and character testified of the position God has called him into, after much prayer and seeking of the face of God.

Many of you will now accuse me of spurting religious babble, but if speaking of a lifestyle and understanding that the bible commands us to have is religious babble then so be it, and if this makes me a communist and a marxist then so be it. I'd rather be in this "communism" then in any other church organization you can suggest.

May God bless all and every one of you.

Simon.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.13)]

Man, are you brainwashed! Of course the syncophants around noel give him the title of apostle. It's a pyramid scheme. It's politics. They suck up to him to get tidbits of power they crave.
This is everything a Christian church is not supposed to be. This is a cult. Get out. You won't find Jesus there. Find Jesus! He will set you free!

[Luescha (67.10.9.61)]

Hmmmmmmm... I have been following this thread for some time, mainly just to see exactly what the beliefs out there were and are.....
I just have a couple of things to add. To those that have been hurt, i am very sorry and this does not lessen that in anyway....But cant that happen in any church...... It happens in every church.....in every "religion". We cant be all the same parts of the body. Some have to be an arm, some a leg, some a neck, They function differently, but have the same purpose to cary out the "orders"- thought processes of the mind.... And we is the head of the church - That should be the common pt. Where the motivation of the heart is to carry out the will of the Father..... I can only speak from my experience with WBN..... About three years ago I first came into contact with WBN and it was a pretty hairy ride...... Have you ever tried to catch a scared and hurt little kitten? That was me. It was a very scary and painful time, but it was about something that the Lord was working out in me..... People are people. Your plumeline with what is right should be from what a man says, but should come from a personal relationship with Your Heavenly Father..... I have never heard Woodroffe say anything to the opposite of that, or any of the top leaders in WBN. It is by the fruit.... Have I taken everything in from WBN, no some of it is over my head, but i do know this... My life has been changed for the better after coming into contact with WBN, and everyone around me saw that and recognized it. I dont want to be a sunday christian, and the principles of this organization have taught me, not done it for me, to hear the Lord, and then apply all of the Lord's direction into my life........Hope this helps someone reading out there.

Luescha'

[Son Inc. (208.131.189.201)]

I have this to say to everyone in this posting list. From your hearts come the Spirt of the Holy God that brings life. And from this same heart comes the sprit of angry demonic forces making a raccus, that lead to death and blindness; It is only through Christ that we enter eternal life. "Be Still and know that I'm God". Confine your enemies oh Lord to utter misery & confusion less they boast that to be like God (tower of babel) For they that SHOWS His nature are is Sons, Like Christ is a Son.

Son Inc.

[Sons Inc. (208.131.189.201)]

I have this to say to everyone in this posting list. From your hearts come the Spirt of the Holy God that brings life. And from this same heart comes the sprit of angry demonic forces making a raccus, that lead to death and blindness; It is only through Christ that we enter eternal life. "Be Still and know that I'm God". Confine your enemies oh Lord to utter misery & confusion less they boast that to be like God (tower of babel) For they that SHOWS His nature are is Sons, Like Christ is a Son.

Sons Inc.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

So sonny boy, are you a Son Of God, like Jesus?

[Sons Inc. (208.131.189.201)]

The Lord Know them that are His. Christ came to make those who see, see not and to those who hear, hear not. The Sons of God hear His voice and move further to make what He has said produce fruit in the earth. So by their FRUITS (only mature plants can bear, Matt. chapter 13) and only by this the Sons of God will be distinguished from the clutter of wheat and weeds. "For my children hear my voice and harken unto it". Those who hears and do my will are mine". No man, angel, principlality or power can Stop God from expressing Himself on the earth. Blessed be the God of all ages He reigns in Power and Strength. Blessed be the name, the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous (203.194.46.128)]

Hi all. I've just recently run into the WBN and all this stuff on the internet. There are some things which are of great concern but also there things which excite me at the same time.
I would like to start by saying that I have heard "the man" speak, read one of his books thoroughly and researched on the net finding a lot of information including associate ministries.
Firstly I would like to say that the concept of a church which has a place for all the ministry functions listed in the Bible is very exciting. In general, most churches are a very poor replica of what the church was at the time of the apostles.
My greatest concern is churches embracing this new reformation without having a foundation which can hold it without distortion. Even a quick study will show that ministers who have a tendency towards control or pride or wrong motivation will take the authority part of this teaching and the end result will be almost without fail much of what you read above, hurt etc. This is not the first reformation in the church and it will also not be the last. Failure to learn and retain the lessons from EACH move of God or season of reformation will stop us from having this foundation.
The use of "new" language is of concern also. It is a common tool of "sort of christian" groups to try and introduce a new terminology which separates the group from others. The apostolic reformation is not new as it has been around for well over a decade and there are many people who are in some way or another recognised as apostles. There is no valid need for a new language. The need is for the Holy Spirit of God to be opening the hearts and mind of people to understand the order that He wishes to bring to the church in these times. If THIS is not happening then it simply is not of God in the first place. Perhaps the answer for many of the "posters" is to seek God's opinion regarding the reformation of which "a form of" is taught by the WBN people and it's importance to them and the church in general without judging it by the ministry of one human, fallible, cross-cultural minister. Otherwise we'd be doing the charismatic "throwing the baby out with the bath water" when we spot something new.

[Anonymous (209.208.76.232)]

203.194.46.128
I just want to say THANK you...from one ewe to another ewe!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[Barbara OBrien (209.208.76.249)]

203.194.46.128
Also...I sense "stability" in you! ^^

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

"and there are many people who are in some way or another recognised as apostles."

Recognized by who? Does God recognize them as apostles? How do you know?

Anybody who self appoints himself or allows others to appoint him as an apostle is a charlatan out to fleece the flock. "Move of God" is another cult term.

There is the Christian Church and then there cults. Stop being a cult apologist!

[seamaiden (seamaiden)]

the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.


Christianity in america especially is diluted

(Message edited by seamaiden on November 29, 2004)

[kpbruinfan (kpbruinfan)]

This is exactly what the Enemy wants. Let's all point fingers and express our own viewpoints as correct by posting mean spiritedly at others who oppose our view. What does the Bible say? 1 John 4 teaches us to test the spirits. If it is not of Christ it is Antichrist. Period. No gray area. In today's modern church there are many who speak half-truths insisting it's the full gospel. God will judge them accordingly. We are to pray, study, and exercise discernment. I know nothing of the WBN so I will not speak about them. That would be foolish. Some of the above postings have affiliated WBN with Latter Rain. In that particular case I can speak. Latter Rain branched off the Vineyard movement and the Shepherding movement of the 70's espoused by Bob Mumford and Derek Prince to name 2 of the the Ft. Lauderdale Five. The Vineyard movement believes in signs and wonders. They are Kingdom Dominionists who believe they are the mobilizing army prophesied in Joel 2 to irradicate evil from the world to present Christ a spotless earth upon His second coming, which makes them amillenialists. These folks do in fact refer to themselves as apostles and prophets and believe in the fully restored five fold ministry Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4:11. I am not a Bible scholar but having lived through a Shepherding/Vineyard experience and seeing what damage it caused I have to insist that something is fishy about it. Anyone who ushers in curses against those who don't agree with their correctness is obviously not thinking in a Godly manner. Jesus instructed his Apostles to shake the dust from their feet upon leaving a place where their words were not accepted (read: the Gospel message).
Each of us is responsible to make a personal commitment to Christ. No one else can earn another's salvation. Inasmuch, we are also responsible to be in the Word, to pray for God's guidance and to discern the spirits. In that way we can learn more quickly when teaching is not biblical. Latter Rain was denounced as heresy by the Assembly of God back in the 50's but it's hung around and resurfaced. That's historical fact. But one thing's for sure. Anyone who says if I do not follow THEIR teaching I'm going to hell is way off target and preaching man and not God. That is heresy and it should be avoided. In the end God will judge but we must discern and be wary.

God bless you all!

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

kpbruinfan - well said. I agree that the Latter Rain and Dominionist teachings have hung around and resurfaced under various movements and names. They are often tied to Shepherding movements as well. It is VERY important with these types of doctrines to be discerning and wary, as you put it. They can appear Biblically sound and can seem right, but underneath, the end of them leads to death.

Good post.

[healed_cult_member (healed_cult_member)]

I have read all the discussions on here and found them very interesting. My wife and I left the WBN/Congress cult a few years ago and I believe after 10 years of being there we have the authority to speak about it.

The church in the early stages could not be classed as a cult however there were disturbing signs. The leader 'Apostle' Woodroffe always appeared to have an element of pride and arrogance about him, which grew worst over the years. They mocked pentecostals and referred to them as ignorant. Playing with the church football team in Trinidad, I felt so ashamed when one of the guys remarked about another team ' what do you expect, they are just pentecostals.' This all came from Woodroffe and his condesending arrogance.

He claims he was callled to build a 'church beyond compare' but has built a dangerous cult.

[healed_cult_member (healed_cult_member)]

For years I was deceived by the lies told by this church. Every sunday they would give a report about what is happeing across the world. Having migrated out of Trinidad I now know many of these reports were false. They have destroyed the fabric of many churches and everywhere they go there is pain and suffering.

The Senior Apostle has allowed himself to be used by a lying demon and has created a dangerous mind controlling sect that has enslaved its members. If you try to leave you become fearful as there saying is 'if you break the hedge, a serpent will bite you.' They preach heresy and bondage and there is little mention of Jesus in there. All you need is to come to Woodroffe.

I remember the last night when my wife and I decided to walk out. The Great 'Apostle' was leading the meeting and they had a giant diagram with what looked like the solar system. There were number of planets and what looked like the sun in the middle. To my amazement the 'Apostle' said that the other planets were like other churhes and we (WBN/Congress)were the beam of light that was to eluminate them. We were described as the cutting edge of all God was doing in the earth. This was the last straw. I had enough of the pride and arrogance. My wife thought, 'this man has no fear of God.'

In Elijah Centre (the church in Trinidad) they don't pray to god, they command him. 'Do it Now God!' is what you will hear. There is no humility in there and the snobishness of the people is amazing. They do not have love and preach lies and are so judgemental. 'Apostle'Woodroffe has created a buch of spiritual snobs who think they are better than anybody else. I am amazed by the current members who defend this CULT.

[pearl_owner (pearl_owner)]

Dear Healed Cult Member,

I thought you were healed? It doesn't sound so. Instead you sound bitter.

What a young man says on a football field is no measure of an entire church or its leadership.

You 'having migrated out of Trinidad', could you please tell us specifically which of the 'many reports' you heard about on Sunday mornings is false?

Calling 'Pentecostals' ignorant is quite a bit milder than calling a person controlled by a 'lying demon' and a congregation 'enslaved'.

Why is it legitimate for you to denounce EC and Woodroffe, but it is not for EC and Woodroffe to denounce (albeit, quite a bit more graciously than you), Pentecostals?

I encourage you to get some counseling and really get healed, then you will have the grace and wisdom to speak more like the Lord on this topic.

[ontheroad (ontheroad)]

Dear Healed_cult_member,

Thank you for posting here. I'm so sorry for the hurt which you and your family have encountered from Woodroffe and WBN. My encounters with an apostle that was within the WBN network were awful. I'll post the link about it here: http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=61964#POST61964

You mentioned the diagram where WBN/Congress (really Woodroffe when you get right down to it) are the beam of light illuminting the rest of the earth. I well remember a similar (or maybe the same) diagram that WBN had on its former website before it was revamped. The diagram was to illustrate how apostolic grace flows from Woodroffe through WBN and then over the whole earth. I rememember wondering where is God in the diagram? Shouldn't HE be the beam of light in the illustration? How arrogant for someone to assume that their own "aposotlic grace" was meant to illuminate the rest of mankind. We don't need anyone's apostolic grace to illuminate us. Jesus died on the cross and rose again so that we might have a relationship wherein we receive HIS grace and illumination; not man's. Jesus is our mediator; not some self-proclaimed apostle.

Thanks again for your post and for sharing your story. May you find every-increasing healing and peace through the Lord.

[pearl_owner (pearl_owner)]

Dear On The Road,

When you say that we do not need anyone's apostolic grace to illuminate us, do you include the apostle Paul in that statement?

I fear that are on the wrong road. Unless you take Ephesians 4.11-14 to have already been accomplished, then apostles as well as pastors, prophets as well as teachers and evangelists have been given by the Lord Jesus Himself to 'equip' us UNTIL we arrive at, or attain to, the conditions described in that passage.

There is no doubt that Jesus is our mediator, however, the work of Christ on the Cross has to be proclaimed, taught, and preached through human mediators. Paul clearly teaches this in Romans when he says, 'How will they hear unless someone preaches'?

Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher, are all simply the means by which people, like you and I, receive the word of Christ. This 'word' that we receive is a word of Grace that ILLUMINATES us and opens our eyes to hte Lord Jesus and His work!

In fact your posting on this site is a form of 'illuminating' the eyes of Healed Cult Member.

Your misfortunate experience with an 'apostle' that was within the WBN Network is simply that. An experience with a person. I do not think that you would indict the entire Assemblies of God because of Jimmy Swaggart's sins. Nor would you indict the entire EV Free organization because of a child molester youth pastor in the largest church. Nor would you indict the entire Baptist movement because of adultery in one of the primary pastor's life...would you?

You have never met Dr. Woodroffe yourself, and yet you speak as an expert on him. E-mail him, tell him your concerns with the 'apostle' who wronged you. Be biblical in your approach to this issue. Don't respond to a wrong that was done to you by issuing another wrong.

With regards to you 'wondering where was God in the diagram', if you had read the next section it clearly said, 'The grace that comes from God'

As the apostle Paul prayed, "I pray that the eyes of your heart might be opened, that you might know..."

[healed_cult_member (healed_cult_member)]

Pearl I respect your right to defend your organization and its leader. In CULTS, the members will defend anything that the leader does and overtime they see the world through his eyes.

I am healed to a large degree but coming across this discussion board has opened up some old wounds. I left a Pentecostal church to join WBN
and after a number of years I realise that my Pentecostal pastor was right about WBN/Elijah Centre. He said that they were a known cult and that their teachings were not right. I wanted 'present truth' so I did not take head. Let me give you some examples of the Sunday morning lies.

We would get reports of breakthroughs all over the world. Hundreds of churches were constantly joining the network. There is no way of verifying these reports my suspicion is that the numbers may have been exaggerated.

I have heard Woodroffe on many occasions refer to many pastors as irrelevant to what God is doing in the earth. Now what and who gives him the Authority to say someone is irrelevant.

There were some issues with some of the members of EC who were part of the University of the West Indies ISCF group. They were kicked out along with other CULTS like Church of Christ. My understanding is that they wanted to take over the meetings and dominate everything. I wonder where they got that idea.

The comments made by church member during a football game about Pentecostals were rather unfortunate. This however comes from a position of arrogance taken by the leadership. No wonder no proper church would invite Elijah Centre/ congress to speak. They are a known cult in Trinidad and judging from the postings on here, there cultic teachings are being exposed across the earth.


(Message edited by healed_cult_member on August 20, 2005)

[healed_cult_member (healed_cult_member)]

Chronicles of Pain:

Pearl I have the right to denouce EC and Woodroffe becuase I attended his church for a number of years as did my wife. She cries just hearing about them.

I have entitled this posting chronicles of pain to illustrate what EC and the congress really stand for. If you visit their website you may see statements that appear to be biblically accurate. To use one of their analogies, there is a lot more below the surface than what you can see.

Chronicle of Pain 1.

If you are a young woman in Elijah Centre (EC) who happens to fall pregnant out of wedlock your situation is bleak indeed. Your options are to jump on a plane and hide before people notice or commit more sin and abort the child. Woodroffe will make you stand on the pulpit in front of the congregation and call you a disgrace. You will be seen as a 'spot in the love feast' and told in front of everyone that you brought shame to the house. If any member wants to dispute this I will be happy to hear them. I was there and this happended on several occassions.

Once you go through this no one really wants to talk to you. In almost all cases the young woman leaves the churh. My wife had to secretly keep in contact with one young girl who after feeling abandoned by the church 'found love' in the wrong place and got pregnant again. The church of Jesus is meant to be a place where we feel protected. While I do not expect us to condone sin I thought Jesus died for us. We have all sinned and no one should have to go through such humiliation. One justification given by a cult follower was 'well they need to put fear in the people to prevent them from sining.' What cultic bable.

They preach community but really mean 'loose you indenty and be part of the collective.' It is like 7 of 9 on star trek. Over time you become dependent on the group for friendship and support. When they take it away the pain is unbearable. Thank God for his mercy and grace to restore and strengthen his people.


Chronicles 2.

Public humilation is normal in this cult. I have seen many vibrant confident people become militant and judgemental. It is almost like their features have changed and they have lost the ability to smile. I remember atteding a meeting in Europe with some people from Malaysia and Singapore. They had a understanding of the love of God. They came into contact with the congress and it all went pear shaped. The arrogance of the guys from the congress was unbelievable. They dominated the meeting and made the non WBN members feel like what they had to say was not important to the current move of God.

Chronicles 3:

Woodroffe and his leaders encourage bright your pastors particularly in the developing world, to leave their churhes to join the Congress. In many cases the young impressionable pastors leave under a cloud and follow the charismatic 'apostle.' As they start realising what the congress is about and mention their concerns, they are kicked out. Many are left with nothing to go back to and no one to relate to. If you do not follow Woodroffe you become irrelevant.

There are many more things I can say but for those who are thinking of getting involved with Congress/WBN please take head. I will not tell you where to go but if you do attend ask yourself one thing. Who seems to be getting the glory in there, God or a Man. I remember a colleague of mind saying that when the donkey was carrying Jesus into the crowd of cheering people, the donkey could have thought they were cheering him (the donkey).

I am afraid this sums up where the congress has gone wrong. They initially had something and let their pride and arrogance destroy it.

(Message edited by healed_cult_member on August 20, 2005)

(Message edited by healed_cult_member on August 20, 2005)

[setfree1000 (setfree1000)]

"Embassies function as direct extensions of Elijah Centre in their various geographic locations. Each Embassy has a unique sphere of influence that is the result of the natural and organic process of the gifts of each community emerging and combining to form a specific purpose in God.

Embassies connect, sustain and nurture the lives of those committed to the vision of Elijah Centre. They are the resource-base for building key dimensions of the GBKC.

The key roles of EC Embassies in a given country include:

Providing a place of community, resource, identification and support;

Advocating and advancing our Kingdom purposes;

Representing and expressing the values, culture and vision of Elijah Centre and;

Facilitating administration, development and activation of the global initiatives of EC/Congress WBN."



The paragraph was taken directly from their website. The problem with these types of orgainsations is that they do not instruct their followers to promote and elevate the name of Jesus Christ in the earth. There main purpose is to promote the ideas of the leader and the organisation.

[curious_george (curious_george)]

I have looked at the website, although I've never heard any of the teaching of the apostles of the group. Do you know FOR SURE that they do not promote or elevate the name of Jesus in the earth or are you just assuming that??

[setfree1000 (setfree1000)]

Well they do state that they believe in Jesus. I copied the wording from their website as it relates to their embassies. The emphasis for people joining these embassies is learning about the values and culture of their home church/ nexus or whatever new name they come up with.

I know the leader of this group reads some of the postings from time to time and therefore this is addressed specifically to him. You know who I am. You also know that there is no power that can curse what GOD HIMSELF has already declared blessed!

(Message edited by setfree1000 on February 26, 2006)

[curious_george (curious_george)]

I really really don't get what all the bruhaha about this guy or these guys is about. They don't seem to meet the criterea of what a cult is or does. They believe and preach Jesus according to what setfree1000 posted so they preach long and boring, that seems to be their biggest offense.

[joyful_in_jesus]

I want to direct you to the Great Apostle Paul who said and I quote "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified". This is the one true
"Apostolic Mandate"

I too have been schooled by this new Gospel, that the New Testament warned us about. An apostle stood before our congregation and told us to forget everything that we had been taught from the Bible prior to this time because God had just now released the Apostle back to the Earth and they were the only ones anointed to interpret their meaning. Then he went on to say that Israel was not relevant to the end times and that the rapture was something that some man made up a couple of hundred years ago. I guess Thessalonians is no longer apart of God's plan in the earth. The kicker is, Israel is not the little piece of land over in the middle east that is being fought over. It is the new reformed church. They also teach that Israel does not belong to the Jews but to the Palestinians.
I don't know what Bible they are reading but mine says that the Jews are God's chosen people whether in disobedience or even the murder of his son Jesus. The land still belongs to them and even more so, go back and study what all God promised to Abraham and the children of Israel, not the Palestinians. God is not man that he should lie.
Dear Healed cult member thank you for being so brave and sharing your story with all of us I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ will keep you and your wife and family. I hope to hear from you soon.

[only_by_the_grace_of_god]

My husband and I quit going to a church of 8 years that a few months later joined CWBN. Shortly after we quit I had a dream that the church which joined CWBN was mixing cool whip with the grape juice for Communion doing "something new" they called it "Communion Smoothies". Another time, I dreamed that I had left one of my favorite study Bibles at that church. I saw the Pastor and his wife in their car and stopped to say hi. I looked in the floorboard and there at the Pastor's feet was my Bible in the midst of a lot of clutter. I asked if He was through with it, could I have it back. It looked normal but when I opened the front cover there was a hole approx. 3" in diameter all the way through the Bible and I could see the ground. Also the back concordance, etc. was torn out. I remember thinking, "I guess it will be okay, it still had my yellow highlights all through it and I could try and figure out what was being said." (fill in the blanks) I was glad to see that all of Revelations was still there. Needless to say both dreams were quite disturbing. If you know someone involved with this Organization just pray for God's Grace and Mercy to overshadow them. Pray that the seducing deception be broken off of their life and they come to the light of the Truth of Jesus Christ.

[under_grace]

Only by the grace of God,

Amen to your prayer. Love your name.

Under Grace

[franklin]

That some some pompous jackanus or his cultee stooges could elevate himself to a self appointed title of "apostle", same level as the original 12, is blasphemy and is conditioning for absolute mind control of this man worshipping cult. This is definitely a cult and should be disbanded before more people's lives are destroyed. We don't need no freakin' stinkin' new apostles! We just need Jesus!

[yelirus]

Has anyone got any information on Steve Schultz who is associated with WBN, Noel Woodruffe?

[makesi]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1259.html?1145436434

I have recently stumbled upon this site, and am absolutely baffled at how a group of (supposedly) mature individuals could degrade themselves to this level.
As far as I have read thus far, you all have shown zero evidence of CongressWBN's supposed cultic behaviours/doctrines. You people need to get serious, and focus on your own processes in God. Instead of crying down a community of people (and their leadership) who are just trying to accomplish the purposes of God in the Earth, why not channel that same energy to your walk with Christ?
I am a member of one of C-WBN’s Kingdom Communities in Trinidad & Tobago that has a very close relationship with Elijah Centre, and I can assure you that there is no brain washing, no man worshipping, no unbiblical teaching, no unscrupulous behaviour, and no money grabbing. God is really using us(as he is using other networks as well), to bring about his glory, and love in the Earth.
This is EXACTLY why God's Kingdom is yet to be established in the Earth, because Christians continually pull down each other over simple little differences in beliefs and misunderstandings. If after listening, and doing your own searching, you still disagree with what is being taught by Dr. Woodroffe, or Bro Anderson, or any of our other leaders in the network for that matter, then just don’t listen to them any more and move on. You are entitled to your opinions, and as such, have the choice of whether to listen to them or not!
I know Dr. Woodroffe, maybe not as personally as others, but well enough to trust him. He is a man I greatly admire (note the use of the word admire, not worship), he is a man of great character. But we must also remember that he is a human being, and we (humans) make mistakes. So if he has ever offended any one of you by his words or actions, I am sure he has regretted it. But that does not negate the fact that he is a man of God, and is doing the Father’s work.
I do hope that you all will put away your bitterness and anger, and drop this entire thing.

One Love, Peace & Joy!!!
Max

[anonymous505050]

Max,

While I am sure you are a sincere and honest person, your posting would be no different from the average cult devotee. People tend to see what they want to see when it comes to matters of faith.

God Bless.

[makesi]

anonymous505050,
This is exactly the kind of statement that says nothing, and so much at the same time. The name of this site is factnet ……….emphasis on the word “FACT”.
Your statement has absolutely no factual basis, yet you are casting aspersions upon my community and our leaders.
So I will ask AGAIN. What evidence do you have that the C-WBN, and its leaders are cultic? What is your biblical, ethical, spiritual basis, for making such accusations?
I await your enlightenment.....

One Love, Peace & Joy!!!
Max

[franklin]

Man worshippers, all of you. Man of God!? Only Christ was a Man of God! Just the fact that you think this charlatan is an Apostle tells me that wbn is a cult! Our leaders!? What does a Christian need a leader for? To lead you to Christ? You have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to do that. You don't need man to stand between you and God. A pastor is good. But a leader, an apostle? No! Stop putting man on a pedestal. I am absolutely baffled at how a group of (supposedly) mature individuals could degrade themselves to this level. Only God belongs on a pedestal! Remember God is a jealous God. No idols before Him. wbn is a cult. Get out!

[anonymous505050]

Max,

The purpose of this board is for people to air their views on their experiences with organisations that they consider cults. As you have read, many people have had various experiences.

You as a member will defend and those who left or observed the organisation will obviously disagree. As you seem to be a good christian my advice to you would be to not let these things bother you and press on in your faith. What should you care if people think your church is a cult.

Best wishes.

[curious_george_1]

To 505050 & Franklin;

You are truly amazing how you can not back your claims with specific, concise, FIRST HAND evidence of what you claim. Every thing you say is vague and personal opinion. Your words carry no weight.

[franklin]

If it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, walks like a cult, sounds like a cult, reads like a cult, feels like a cult...... then by curiousgeorge..... IT IS A CULT!

Explain to us why it is NOT a cult!

[curious_george_1]

Thanks for further illustrating my point. Why are you so angry??

[franklin]

I am not angry at all. Just a happy warrior in the good fight against mind control cults. I wish to eradicate all cultic brainwashing from the minds of lost Christians. To tear down all of the false idols man puts before God. Why does Noel and his stooges want to be demigods standing in between seekers of Christ and God? That is the question YOU need to answer. Why do you need to worship a man? And.....

Explain to us why it is NOT a cult!

[curious_george_1]

Dude, I don't worship a man. I have no burden placed upon me to explain anything because I have made no accusations. I explained to you I know very little about WBN and I was trying to gain some insight. You have shed much light with your inability to do so. And of course you vehemence. You continue to further illustrate my point with your attempted shifting the weight to my shoulders. Why don't you just admit you don't know what you are talking about?? You make that obvious repeatedly.

[anonymous505050]

Curious George,

Good to have you back. I agree with you in many cases. Unfortuanely my comments to Max applies to you as well as me. The people that put postings on here come from 2 camps. Those who think the church is a cult and those who do not.

There is no evidence or reasonable points stated that would make either side feel differently. It is therefore pointless to debate the issue I am afraid. What one person may see as man worshiping the other will see as submitting to authority.

As far as I am concerned you and others are free to support your church and its leaders. I too am free to describe them based on my assesment. I actually agree with the last question. Why don't you tell us why it is not a cult. You can answer the question if you think it will change my mind.

regards.

[curious_george_1]

Well Mr 505050, as I have stated. I don't know much about WBN and was trying to find out more. I have never met the people you guys have been talking about or anything. You are wrong in your assessment of the 2 "camps". There are those of us trying to get useful information on this type of group. I honestly don't know what to think of WBN. I do know that you and Franklin are doing nothing to convince anyone. At least you are not a raving lunatic like he is. I mean I have asked you guys to show me some of the real stuff we have seen cults do over the years. And all you can come up with is that they talk too much and are very strict with there people. I am not saying I am convinced that it is NOT a cult. I am just saying you haven't back up you accusations. You are free to describe anything and anyone as you see fit. But if you are trying to inform people you gotta do better than you have done.

(Message edited by curious_george_1 on May 10, 2006)

[franklin]

Thanks for the raving lunatic comment. You don't know whether wbn is a cult or not but you are absolutely certain having lived with me, observed me, known me for years and years that I am a raving lunatic. You are so slow to come to judgement when it comes to wbn and quick to come to judgement concerning me.

Another question for you not to answer. What is a religious mind control cult?

[curious_george_1]

Dude, you are too reactionary and shallow for me to get into any discussions with.

[franklin]

And you are too mysterious and cult apologist for me to have any serious discussion with. I have to assume you are a member of wbn, though you deny it. Or if not you have don't have the foggiest idea what a mind control cult is. You seem to see no harm in elevating a man to the same status as how Christ chose his Apostles. Reactionary, shallow? That is what your comments seem to me. Float away on your little dream cloud. This is a serious subject we are dealing with. Too deep for your understanding. Have a nice day! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[curious_george_1]

Again, you illustrate my point perfectly!! BYE BYE!!

[franklin]

Yes, anyone who speaks against a cult is reactionary. That is your point cult apologist. Go and check the chains of the enslaved stooge.

[curious_george_1]

You excel at making yourself look foolish. Poor guy!!

[franklin]

And you will really be the fool if you discover the real truth that wbn is a mind control cult! I would rather live with my conscience than yours.

Tell me smarty pants, do you think scientology is a cult?

Do you think that Branch Davidians is a cult?

Do you think that Peoples Temple is a cult?


Explain to us why wbn is NOT a cult!

[yelirus]

Repeat after me: WBN is not a cult, WBN is not a cult, WBN is not a cult .....

[franklin]

Explain to us why wbn is NOT a cult!

[anonymous505050]

You guys have taken the discussion to new depths. Like I said the two camps will never agree and debating it is pointless.

Maybe someone could describe what are the Good things about WBN. I am sure there are some. Does not change the bottom line for me but this could help them and others.

I have a scenario which I would like to ask on. Jesus asked his disciples who men said he was. No one could answer except Peter. By saying Jesus was the Christ Peter became the 'rock' of the church and was elevated in the midst of the other disciples. A few verses down Jesus rebuked Peter and called him the devil. This because of statements Peter made about Jesus dieing. It is therefore possible for people with strong spiritual insight and revelation to become corrupted and used by dark forces. If Peter was an 'Apostle' in the world today, the moment God elevated him, us humans would hang on to every word he spoke from that moment. Jesus was able to judge him on what he preached. This is a good way to avoid becoming a 'man worshiper.'

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on May 11, 2006)

[franklin]

We know Peter was an Apostle because Jesus Christ appointed him as such. Today the title is corrupted and shouldn't be used on modern man. Every cult has an "apostle" leader.

[curious_george_1]

Franklin. SMARTY PANTS????? Wow, you are too much, dude.

[franklin]

Why not answer my questions?

Tell me smarty pants, do you think scientology is a cult?

Do you think that Branch Davidians is a cult?

Do you think that Peoples Temple is a cult?


Explain to us why wbn is NOT a cult, dude!

[curious_george_1]

I told you I ain't having discussions with you. Why don't you answer a question to yourself. Compare what WBN has done to what these groups you list have done and you tell yourself if WBN is a cult. And switch to decaf, dude!!!

[franklin]

I'm trying to establish if you believe there are and what is a cult in your mind. By evading my questions you appear more and more a like a wbn / cult apologist. Tell the truth, are you a member or leader of wbn?

[yelirus]

Repeat after me: WBN is not a cult, Wbn is not a cult, WBN is not a cult . . . .

[curious_george_1]

For the 15th time, I am not a member of WBN I had heard about them while I have never had any personal contact with them. That's why I asked you and others to shed some light on what makes them dangerous etc. I want to gain all the information I can so that I would be able to judge accurately. When you turn the tables and ask me questions before you've answered mine, that shows me your are allowing your prejudice of the group to rule you because you have nothing concrete to base your claims on. Tell me this, are you so against WBN because the leadership is black?

[anonymous505050]

Fyi

If you look at the leadership of the Group you will find that they are from different races.

[curious_george_1]

FYI if you look at the leadership of the group the head and MOST of the leadership are black.

[franklin]

Not at all. I have no racial prejudices. I have read all of the posts concerning wbn. Have read their websites. It is a cult. How have you come up with a different conclusion?

yelirus: tell me why it is not.
Show me point by point.
Here is the Factnet criteria:

Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and
domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

[yelirus]

And Jimmy turned to the crowd and said "Repeat after me - Lemonade is good, Lemonade is good, Lemonade is good".

And with that Mr. Jones led his followers into eternal ....

[makesi]

anonymous505050,
I thank you for the last post you made to me, you were quite correct in saying what you said. I was actually contemplating whether to even come back to this site. However, after reading the discourse between Curious George & Franklin, I am compelled to say a few words in an attempt to create clarity.
anonymous505050, I especially like the scriptural example you used from Matt 16:16, it was solid. Curious George, you are actually wrong about most of the leadership being black. Follow this link to see for yourself, http://www.kcnetwork.org/about/leadership.asp.
Franklin, you have proven time, and time again that you really have no clue of what you are talking about. You continually make accusations with no factual basis pertaining to the C-WBN. The mere fact that you obviously do not believe that there are apostles in the Earth today (Eph 4:11-16), tells me that you do not accept that the bible is truth in its entirety. So you are clearly coming from a skewed standpoint.
In response to your last post “Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults", I am going to respond to each to the best of my ability:
1) In ANY church structure (and all other organizational structures for that matter), the leader has the direct authority. Every church has values and standards that its members are supposed to abide by, does this mean that ALL churches are cults. Also, Dr. Woodroffe is not unreachable, if I have a concern that i wish to speak to him about, I am able to do so.
2) Most leaders today (both in the church and in the world), are charismatic, determined and domineering. But these are qualities that most leaders are required to have in order to deal with the continual attacks of the enemy (that would include people like you). I, or anyone else I now, has never been asked, or persuaded to leave their families, jobs or friends. In fact, if anything, we are encouraged to go out and excel in our academic and career pursuits. There are people in the C-WBN that have pioneered their own business in different spheres, including software companies, financial consultancies, and office accessories and computer supplies stores. So the C-WBN does exactly the opposite of what you say cults do.
3) Dr. Woodroffe, has NEVER asked/made ANYONE worship him. That, I can guarantee.
4) No one dictates the way we behave or even dress for that matter. Our behaviour, dress and occupation, are up to us. However, we will not do anything in these areas that are against the will of God.
5) We have one set of ethics, and they are biblical. We are encouraged to be open and honest with the people we meet in our workplaces or schools. How else are we to help non-believers realize that they need to give their lives to Christ? That requires honesty and openness.

Well that’s all I have time for now, I have to run. But I hope that Franklin and others are beginning to realize that CongressWBN is not a cult, but just a community of believers that are committed to doing the purposes of God.

One Love, Peace & Joy!!!
Max

[franklin]

Do you believe that Dr. Woodroofe is closer to God than you are?

[yelirus]

Senior member, Franklin. Do I believe Dr. Woodroof is closer to God that I am?

Possibly. If his name was Woodcellar or Woodbasement I'd say definitely not, but Woodroof, well, that's a tough call.

[franklin]

haha. Ok. I rephrase the question.

Do you believe that Dr. Woodroffe is closer to God than you are?

[franklin]

These periods of silence seem to speak much.

[anonymous505050]

It is not possible to class someone as a cult leader by one statement they make so we need to look at several statements over a period of time. Even after this we need to go further and look at the general philosophy and thrust of their ministry. Even then we can go further and look at the fruit of their ministry, i.e. the type of people coming out of the church.

To go into detail let's look at the statements. When you start saying things like, ' the members of my chruch think they are strong but they are living off my strength.' or 'I am the source of energy for this church' or 'most pastors I meet are inferior to me' or 'Elijah Centre is the at the core of what God is doing in the earth.'

When an embassy/ cell group in Europe annouces that the purpose of their next meeting is to 'tap into Elijah Centre.' When a young man who is a member based in New Zealand writes, 'I was invited to speak and the spirit of Elijah Centre was with me' what are we left to think. When messages suggest that salavation is attained by joining the WBN rather than coming to Christ. When Jesus appears to me a marginal figure in the church (see CWBN promo video), what are we to think. The thing that was created is getting more glory than the God that was meant to have created it.

Are these grounds for concluding that we are dealing with a cult?

[franklin]

That and for many other reasons I say YES!

[scarey]

I used to go to a church which was getting more and more involved with the C-WBN and I, along with many others, decided to leave.

Cult or not, the WBN is peculiar and to my mind has lost the right focus. I dont think they are bad in the sense that they impose strict rules and demand money etc but they aren't focussed where they should be.
I went to a sermon by noel and he showed us a heirarchical structure of the network. He was at the top as the senior apostle and shining down thorugh him onto the lower ranking members was a light representing God's apostolic input. I dont feel qualified to comment on the existence of apostles in modern day and the context of their role but having a single figurehead such as noel, through which God's message is passed I find quite alarming. The whole thing rests on him and whatever he makes of it. Its made worse by his prior involvement
(and present similarities) with Latter Rain which is a recognised cult.
I can honestly say I gained nothing from his sermon other than a wariness of the WBN. He actually spoke nonsense, using business and other strange terminology to such an extent that you lost what he was trying to say before he even finished the sentence.
I dont know much about modern day prophecy, but the year I was there the prophetic word was to 'remove the fuzz'. They wanted to be clear in their aims, something which imo they have totally failed at. I cannot make heads nor tails of half their website (which leaves me concerned that they are masking their true purpose).

Every so often I am reminded of the WBN and look up stuff and every time I get worried for my friends who are still connected with it - some quite deeply.

The fact that this network sets off so many alarm bells of uncertainty makes me want to steer clear of it. If it was in line with the bible I believe it would be obvious and no one would question it. But since it's not clear and so many people question its actions, I can only conclude that something isn't right with WBN.

[franklin]

It sets off the same alarm bells and raises the same red flags for me as it does you. My question is if we need apostles today, why do we also have the Holy Ghost who speaks to each of us directly? My answer is: we don't need no stinkin' apostles! Praise God, not man! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[anonymous505050]

Despite the hurt caused to myself an my family through our former association with WBN I believe the Lord wants me to move on. Holding on to bitternes and past hurt sometimes can affect us as we move forward.

I therefore encourage those who have been hurt by WBN and its leaders to let God help you to let go of the pain and give you a new future. It has taken me 3 years and I still get angry. You question why you did not leave sooner, why allow yourself to get so deeply involved etc. At the end of the Day the true church is known only to God. I am learning to let go and even people like the leader himself needs to be forgiven. It is no point asking God to forgive me when I sin, while I continue to be bitter and resentful at those who I believe wronged me.

[scarey]

franklin, there's a good article here (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f09.html) about modern day apostles. It basically confirms your opinion but with a biblical explanation http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[seamaiden]

http://www.eagles-landing.org/weekly.htm

[anonymous505050]

Following the link there is a message entitled GPS update by Scott Webster. Interesting to listen to his contributions. He spent most of the time speaking about the congress rather than about God but that is not unusual.

One point he made is 'you cannot live on your gift because you will die. You need to live on principles.' Sounds good but again wrong. Some of these principles can kill you especially when they are man made principles that are believed to be from God. I would like to think that you rely on God's grace and mercy to keep you.

If we accept that God is ultimately in control then we have to accept that even the bad expereinces we have, He is going to use it to mold us.

So again, even the 'bad' churches can be used to develop us. Maybe one of the reasons we have to leave the leaders of these churches to God who ultimately is the head of the Chruch. However powerful some church leaders believe themselves to be, God is able to promote or demote them.

[franklin]

I don't know. I was in agreement with most of your post until your second to the last sentence. In the realm of politics God can also promote or demote leaders. But that doesn't stop us from campaigning for or against one. Not through slander but with truth. Or voting for or against one. Or leave their jurisdiction if need be.

Same as in religious leaders. We shouldn't just them leave them to God. Or anything else in our lives. God is in control. Correct. But what are his instruments? We are. If we discern God's will correctly through the Holy Spirit guiding us, not man's will, then we are capable of doing God's will. If need be we can speak against, campaign against, vote against and if need be leave their jurisdiction. Religion or politics.

Now if you were just referring to as when a religious leaders heart might change for the better, then that could be in God's time. But that doesn't mean we should sit on our hands and be in a church where in our hearts we know we do not want to be.

Maybe I don't understand what you were trying to say but we are all the master's of our own future. Not some other man. God is in control for sure. But God did not give us free will for nothing. God did not give us each free will so that we would toss it away to be under submission to another man. God wants us to act with His guidance to make this world a better place in all areas including in the churches.

[anonymous505050]

I am in agreement with what you are saying. My point has a certain relevance to a certain group however I will explain. We have to do what we can to highlight what we perceive to be the flaws. This is evident on the discussion board.

Off course we will not always agree. The point is though, we are not physically able to go and shut down any ministry we believe to be a dangerous cult and there is an element where we have to trust God to rule His Church.

If we accept that He is a real God that actually is in control then He can put circumstances and events in motion to bring any dangerous religious leader down. Who knows, He may even use something written on here to spark things off.

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on July 12, 2006)

[yelirus]

Couple of comments to Franklin's post. You said we should not sit in a church where we don't want to be.

There are many places, church, job, etc where we might not want to be. Our worldly instinct is to move on. However, God may have something else in mind. I believe we need to pray for each situation and wait for God's answer.

Concerning religious leaders, you say that God is in control, and we are His instruments.

Leaders, including religious leaders are placed there by God. They are also His instruments. We are told in the Bible to do what our leaders say, except of course if it goes against God's word.

As far as voting in our pastors (which means we can vote them out), if that is what you refer to, I'm not sure if that is a biblical position.

5050 - I tried the eagles landing link but it does not pull up.

[yelirus]

Couple of comments to Franklin's post. You said we should not sit in a church where we don't want to be.

There are many places, church, job, etc where we might not want to be. Our worldly instinct is to move on. However, God may have something else in mind. I believe we need to pray for each situation and wait for God's answer.

Concerning religious leaders, you say that God is in control, and we are His instruments.

Leaders, including religious leaders are placed there by God. They are also His instruments. We are told in the Bible to do what our leaders say, except of course if it goes against God's word.

As far as voting in our pastors (which means we can vote them out), if that is what you refer to, I'm not sure if that is a biblical position.

5050 - I tried the eagles landing link but it does not pull up.

[franklin]

Let's get one thing perfectly clear and established here and now.

If everything was and everybody did God's will this would be heaven! Absolute perfection!

But it's not because none of us do God's Will all of the time.

So many religious leaders are NOT placed there by God.

Do you think Jim Jones was placed there by God???

Do you think David Koresh was placed there by God?????????

What are you thinking?????

These are just men. Imperfect men just like you and I. Some might be placed there by God. Some might not. I would guess that many have been placed there by satan!

So your go back to sleep sheep attitude is very dangerous to the body of Christ and to your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'd recommend that if anybody hears a preacher that goes against the word of God to a point that it makes you uncomfortable being there, RUN! Get out and if you can't find another church that's right then stay at home and read the Bible for yourself like you should be doing anyway.

We are not robots. We have free will Let the Holy Spirit guide you and use it!

God did not pick Jim Jones. Did not pick David Koresh. And probably did not choose the wbn leadership. Run!

[anonymous505050]

Yelirus - Since my post pointing to the link it has been removed. The link led to over 20 Audio messages from various speakers connected to the church. It would appear that someone is monitoring our discussions here and may have felt a little uncomfortable with us making comments on messages. Unless Seaimaden is able to provide us with another link you may just have to take my word for it with respect to any quotes taken from messages.

[anonymous505050]

I am somewhat disappointed that the messages have been removed. If they believe they are so 'acurrate' and on the 'cutting edge' of what God is doing, then why not leave the messages for proper scrutiny?

In any case, if anyone wants to listen to proper messages from a proper ministry, go to www.joelosteen.com Once you register you can listen to all the messages for free. You get the entire worship service as well. It is amazing that Joel ministers with such simplicity. He does not use overly complicated and 'big' words and his messages by some standards would not be considered 'deep.' Yet it is powerful as God is evidently all over the ministry.

Two messsages I would recommend for people questioning why they had the misfortune of having to be part of a destructive cult are, 'embracing the place where you are,' and 'staying on the potters wheel.'

I found them very encouraging and useful. Hope someone else does as well.
(Message edited by anonymous505050 on July 14, 2006)

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on July 14, 2006)

[franklin]

One thing that stands out about the wbn websites and and their cultic verbage is that you can't understand what the heck they are talking about. Strange grammar and context, pseudo platitudes inferring world domination by this pseudo one and only church. From my experience it is intended to be confusing to manipulate and brainwash the mind. To me it sends up red flags right away. Trying to be all encompassing in human life. Religious, political, economic etc.... It all reads like the communist manifesto to me. That is one of the reasons that I believe wbn is a cult.

[seamaiden]

Hi again. I don't know who removed that link, but i do find it quite curious and a bit strange that if somethings so powerful can be such a secret.

[anonymous505050]

From my expereince they would rather keep these things secret for a reason. To really become 'converted' you would need to be systematically exposed to hrs and hrs of teachings. Once you go through this process your mind and spirit is now deemed ready for the apostolic. Some say you are brainwahsed but who knows. If they leave messages out here for the 'unconverted' to scrutinze then they would be in dager of being exposed.This is because some of their biblical positions may be found wanting.

[anonymous505050]

Jesus met some Lepers that were left outside a community. When no one would approach them, He did and made them whole. The expereince of the one who came back to say thanks is noted. In some ways all christians are like these lepers. If we realise that He has cleansed us and washed us then how can we then look down on other people? How can we become exclusive for the educated elite? How can our ministry teach that we must condem people for the rest of their lives? Is not God able to transform and raise people from nothing to the highest places?

When we loose the revelation of the love of God it becomes easy to become what many have described on here as a cult. If our ministry had 35000 in attendance plus millions on TV, would we make those who sinned (got pregnant out of wedlock) stand on stage to be ridiculed? Could we appreciate the damage this could do to that person?

God is the God of second chances. Because of this I would have to believe that he can restore any ministry to the place where He intended. Even if we go off course He can pull us back. This applies to every person/church including WBN.

If the heart of the Leadership is truly for the Lord then I am sure He will provide the direction. Therefore despite all the stick we have given WBN we have to leave room for possible restoration. People change and God can change people. Maybe these guys, Like Saul of tarsus and not beyond hope.

[anonymous505050]

One thing I would say is that people should be alerted by the structure of the church they attend. My church is a registered charity and is overseen by a board of trustees. The pastor sits on this board but is not a law unto himself. If he is found to be in breach of his responsibilities or has a moral failing he can be asked to step down and replaced. The church is not about him and he is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

As a registered charity there is open accountability for the financial affairs of the church. It means the pastor is not able to finance private initiatives that do not benefit the church and is subjected to annual audits.

In cult structures the church is all about the pastor. If he not there the organisation inevitably dies. He is the life of the ministry and if found to be in sin cannot be removed. His senior leaders will be forced to cover it up because whitout the pastor, the church is dead. In cults the dependency is on the special giftings or revelations of the leader. This is what ‘sets them apart’ from lesser churches.

I know of a church attended by a good friend of mine where the pastor had about 5 or 6 women from the choir actually living in his house. He had a mansion so could afford to share. My friend confided in me that there was a lot of ‘laying on of hands’ if you know what I mean going on, but as he said to me, ‘ He has an anointing.’ If I were to criticise his pastor he would stop speaking to me. That was the evidence of a cult.

What inevitably happens in these type of structures is that the Holy Spirit departs and the worship and ministry gets very dry. The people’s lives become stagnant and they too unknowingly die. In a true cult you could find yourself drinking from contaminated water and not even realise it.

[anonymous505050]

Found this article on yahoo today which I think emphases the point I just made.Article is in 2 parts placed in quotes. The heading is my own and not from original article. The actual heading on yahoo was 'Believers left behind.'

Cult Status of church Leaders part 1.

"Pastor Ted's influence was felt everywhere in New Life Church: in the videos shown at worship; in the New Life bookstore, which stocked books he recommended; and in the story of the church itself. He started New Life in his basement, building it into a 14,000-member nationally known megachurch. As the Rev. Ted Haggard's fortunes rose, so did the church's.
So when Haggard fell spectacularly from grace in a scandal involving drugs and allegations of <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>, many wondered if New Life, so tied to his public persona, would crash with him.
The answer has significance far beyond the Haggard tragedy. As evangelical megachurches have sprung up around the country, concerns have grown over whether superstar pastors help or hurt faith communities.
"When you get to these top 25 or 50 of the largest or most influential churches, these pastors are clearly celebrities. They were the founders, they created much of the growth and they are, in some sense, a brand in and of themselves," said Scott Thumma, a professor at Hartford Seminary in Connecticut, who specializes in studying megachurches. "It's just like a business where the name of the founder is, in fact, a trademark."
"America has always had big-name preachers — from Billy Sunday, the pro baseball player-turned-evangelist, to Billy Graham. But the two were not closely tied to a single church. Among today's best-known pastors, Rick Warren has Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., Joel Osteen has Lakewood Church in Houston and Bishop T.D. Jakes has The Potter's House in Dallas."



(Message edited by anonymous505050 on November 12, 2006)

[anonymous505050]

Cult Status of church Leaders Part 2.

"Graham and Sunday also worked in a vastly different media environment. Modern-day celebrity pastors have Web sites, where they promote their books, along with the DVDs, TV shows and films they produce, while preaching internationally. With such high profiles, word of any wrongdoing will spread quickly, intensifying the damage to them and their congregations.
Haggard felt the impact firsthand last week. On Nov. 2, Mike Jones of Denver came forward saying he had drug-fueled homosexual trysts regularly with Haggard over the last few years.
The claims spread through the Internet, where they were placed side-by-side with video and past news articles in which Haggard had condemned gay marriage and had presented his family life, with wife Gayle and their five children, as a model.
Haggard, 50, immediately resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group for about 45,000 conservative churches, and within days was fired by New Life in Colorado Springs, Colo. In a letter read Sunday at New Life services, he did not address the specifics of Jones' claims, but confessed he was guilty of "sexual immorality."
Nancy Ammerman, a Boston University sociologist who researches congregational life, said the megachurch might be saved by its extensive programs that create social groups within the church. New Life uses the small group model, where churchgoers meet regularly with just a few others, sometimes based on common interests outside of worship.
"That also gives them a forum within which to deal with what happened," Ammerman said.
But Randall Balmer, a Barnard College historian of American religion, said megachurches are so wrapped up with their pastor that New Life inevitably has hard times ahead. Without any creed or denominational identity for the church to cling to, attendance will eventually drop by half or more, he predicted.
"You have a kind of cult of personality that confuses the faith with a particular individual," said Balmer, author of "Thy Kingdom Come: How the Religious Right Distorts the Faith and Threatens America." "I just think it's very difficult to recover from this sort of thing."

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on November 12, 2006)

[immortal1]

I stumbled on this by accident - I personally know leadership in the WBN and will neither agree or disagree with postings. Here is the definition of "Cult"

Formal religious veneration
A system of religious beliefs and ritual also its body of adherants
a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious
great devotion to a person, idea or object, movement or work

In lieu of this definition, isn't all religion cultish?

[anonymous505050]

Suppose your right on that score.

Interesting thoughts on issues with Saul &amp; David. Saul to me is the equivalent of the modern day cult leader. He was the anointed man of God who lost his kingdom. He lost his kingdom because his heart turned from God. Even when the prophet Samuel confronted him Saul was more concerned of his image with the people than submitting to God. He wanted Samuel to walk with him so the people would think he was still anointed.

Saul is the Man of God who would do anything to keep his position. This included plotting to murder another human being. He tried to kill David, consulted witches and was basically disobedient.David in some cases did things that were worse but always had a heart to repent before God. Jonathan is caught between David who represents the Spirit and Saul who represents the flesh. Jonathan was a good man whose only crime was that he lacked good judgement.

Found it funny when TD Jakes mentioned that you have not lived until your old leader sent something your way to try and kill you (referring to Saul throwing a Javelin at David).

(Message edited by anonymous505050 on January 24, 2007)

[anonymous505050]

I am unable to stop writing of God and His goodness. The God who does not always deliver us from things but guarantees if we trust Him He will bring us through them. It is in the fires and the impossible situations that He loves to show Himself.

In 2nd Kings ch 6 v 24 we pick up a remarkable story. Samaria is besieged by the King of Syria. This is the classic case of the people of God being completely surrounded by principalities and there seemingly being no way out. They were surrounded and basically being starved to death. No supplies could go in and it caused a destruction of the economy. People in some cases resorted to cannibalism to survive. Things looked hopeless.

The WORD of GOD came and said things would turn around in 24hrs. Remarkably 4 lepers who were outside the city decided to start walking towards the Syrian army to ask for food. God as only He could, caused the footsteps of the lepers to sound like a mighty army with chariots approaching, causing the Syrians to run for their lives. When the lepers got there they found all the food and booty left behind. Samaria was now saved.

It amazes me that God can bring us out in a split second from any situation. He is a trustworthy God indeed!

[heater02]

I am so confused and scared for my husband. Shortly before we married, he joined a church that follows the WBN and I can say that things between us have not been the same since. He says all these weird things and makes me seem like I need to do what he does for God to love me. We have talked about children and he has recently told me that our children won't be allowed to go to my church because he doesn't want to confuse them with the wrong church beliefs. I go to a normal church (Valley Center Assembly of God) and love what they teach...it's very family orientated. What is someone to do when they are married and know in their soul that the WBN is not right?

[heater02]

I am so confused and scared for my husband. Shortly before we married, he joined a church that follows the WBN and I can say that things between us have not been the same since. He says all these weird things and makes me seem like I need to do what he does for God to love me. We have talked about children and he has recently told me that our children won't be allowed to go to my church because he doesn't want to confuse them with the wrong church beliefs. I go to a normal church (Valley Center Assembly of God) and love what they teach...it's very family orientated. What is someone to do when they are married and know in their soul that the WBN is not right?

[heater02]

I am so confused and scared for my husband. Shortly before we married, he joined a church that follows the WBN and I can say that things between us have not been the same since. He says all these weird things and makes me seem like I need to do what he does for God to love me. We have talked about children and he has recently told me that our children won't be allowed to go to my church because he doesn't want to confuse them with the wrong church beliefs. I go to a normal church (Valley Center Assembly of God) and love what they teach...it's very family orientated. What is someone to do when they are married and know in their soul that the WBN is not right?

[heater02]

I am so confused and scared for my husband. Shortly before we married, he joined a church that follows the WBN and I can say that things between us have not been the same since. He says all these weird things and makes me seem like I need to do what he does for God to love me. We have talked about children and he has recently told me that our children won't be allowed to go to my church because he doesn't want to confuse them with the wrong church beliefs. I go to a normal church (Valley Center Assembly of God) and love what they teach...it's very family orientated. What is someone to do when they are married and know in their soul that the WBN is not right?

[immortal1]

Heatero2 - your answer is ironically above your first posting from anonymous505050.

[arron]

you better read a gain it doest say whoever it says what ever and the people would never violate GODS command to not offer up in sacrifice the people but to redeem the thing which even were uncounted a right for sacrifice

[friendly_follower]

Yelirus,

It's also good to see that you're still on the boards =). As far as where most everyone comes from who attends the embassy, I can say that they are either straight from Trinidad or from Florida. 1/3rd of the people there are all part of the Webster family, the rest are from Trinidad or Florida, and as far as I know, the Websters are from Florida as well. I would know because the girl in which I had a romantic relationship with was Scott Webster's niece ^_^. So *cough...* yeah... of course her parents attended, and so did her cousin, I won't give out names for the protection of their identities, the only reason I even mention Scott Webster is because apparently his identity is already well known hahah, quite notoriously might I add. Anyways, always feel free to ask more questions, I want to give out as much information as possible from my experience, and it is easiest for me to do so when I can directly answer questions. God bless you all!

-Paul

[anonymous505050]

"There is no sorcery against Jacob,
no divination against Israel.
It will now be said of Jacob
and of Israel, 'See what God has done!'


These words were taken from Numbers 23:23. I need to stay on this as it is so awsome. These are the words of the Wizard Balaam. If he was alive today he would most likely be a Grand Master of a masonic lodge or a (Cult Leader). A man connected to very high circles. Boardrooms and Political connections would be his thing. A man who we could describe as a 'Master of the Craft.'


See when you start moving on into divine purpose these are the things you face. Paul described them as Spiritual wickedness in high places.

I only regretted that we did not get to follow on and see more into Balaams life. It would have been good to see him benefit from what people in the 'know' call the Law of Return. Simply put it means what you send out comes back stronger at you.

You want to take the first born of a blessed man, watch what happens to yours. You want to send a curse to bankrupt him, whach your finances get eaten away. David in Pslams 34&amp;35 repeatedly asked God to let his enemies fall in the ditches they dug themselves.

They will try everything to stand in the way of divine pupose but once God was in it, they will fail. In the end they will say like Balaam, we were unable to curse them for they are blessed.

[anonymous505050]

I ironically was invited to a meeting recently where the Minister in charge was dealing with the whole Balaam/Balaak issue. It is very common all over Africa for people to employ these men to perform divination/curses on enemies or friends.

It is important he stressed that it was God who interceded for the children of israel whitout their knowledge. While I need to thank God for what I know He has saved me from, I recognise the need to praise Him for His deliverance from things I was not aware off.

Joseph was never aware that his brothers really wanted to kill him. In the midst of their plot God was at work to deliver him.

[yelirus]

What can anyone tell me about Steve Schultz who is associated with Noel Woodruffe?

[friendly_follower]

Hey yelirus,

Just a quick question, may I ask what type of relationship/contact have you had with the wbn? Just curious as to why so many questions, have you had bad experiences with this group as well? Please, if you wouldn't mind, maybe just sharing your current standpoint with the organization- if anything maybe your input would further help those in need of help to recognize more truth about this group. Much love.

-Paul

[brbob]

Hey there Yelirus. Your username is familiar. Are you on other boards?

I know Steve. I've known him for several years. He is instrumental in the change that happened at our church over the last 3 years. It's hard for me to be accurate in making an assessment of Steve. As a matter of fact, I really don't like to put someone down at all.

In this situation, let me just say that I believe Steve Shultz is very sincere in his efforts. I believe he truly is speaking from his heart when he speaks. In other words, I don't believe he intentionally lies or distorts the truth.

On the other hand. I don't agree with what he has to say. I used to..... but I got over it! The message he has brought from Congress WBN has torn our church apart. We have "grown" from about 250 people to fewer than 100. Actually, I need to modify that last sentence by taking out the "We" at the beginning and replacing it with "They." Yes, I am no longer there.

I was part of the leadership in many ways, now I'm gone....

If you would like to PM more, respond here with your PM and I'll send you my email address.

Thanks

Guest

[yelirus]

I have friends still attending a church headed by Mr. Schultz. My main reason for continuing this link is to hear from anyone who has 1st hand stories of Schultz. I believe many people think Noel Woodruffe is a good guy, but I question how anyone who claims to hear from God like Mr. Woodruffe claims, could have anyone such as Schultz on his staff. Down here in the South, Mr. Shultz has lead many astray, at least in my opinion.

[yelirus]

Brbob
No, never been on any other posts. just trying to get the scoop on Schultz. Catchum in what his motive is.

[brbob]

Sorry, I was confused. There is no PM system on this site.

You can reach me at ronornot56@yahoo.com if you like.

Thanks
Bob