Original Faith Assembly Thread

[Susan]

Years ago my parents, my sister, and I attended a branch of Faith Assembly in Chicago which preached the teachings of Hobart Freeman. I can't remember the name of the man that taught this branch except his first name was Terry. My parents eventually left this church (cult) only after my sister died from seizures. She refused to go to the doctor to be treated, because of the teaching of that man. I want to know what happened to the man that taught at the Chicago branch. He took so much money from people that could not afford it. When my sister died, he did not even attend her funeral or visit our home. The guilt my parents felt over her death was horrible. I can't believe people still believe in his teachings.

[michael markley]

Hi susan <i,m sorry to hear about your sisters death,
my name is michael and I have studied the doctrine of Dr Hobart Freeman ,and must say that his teaching was inspired by the Holy Spirit and the truth ,I,m not sure who this terry is that was involved with your local church, or if He was teaching sound doctrine.Please understand that Jesus is alive today and still heals and keeps His promises,all you need is the faith of a grain of mustard seed

[Anonymous]

I was raised by the doctrine of Hobart Freeman, and I have numerous health problems today as a result. We attended the 'Glory Barn', and yes, it was a barn. We were strongly encouraged not to seek any medical attention, not even preventative. I saw people die from treatable illness and injury.

[Christa Unger]

Hi Susan, I'm so sad to hear about your sister's death, and the anguish your family has gone through. Hobart Freeman was a nut, there is no nicer way to say it. He was a cult leader, and lead many astray. I'm glad to hear that you are no longer involved in the Faith Assembly. I hope that eventually you will find a more stable church, and that your love for God will be strong. God will always be faithful, and gentle. I will be thinking of you and your family, and pray for God to be near to you.

[Anonymous]

Susan,

It's a terrible thing that happened to your sister. Unfortunately I'm not sure who the Terry is that you refer to. I believe that I can find out though, I have many friends who grew up in the Glorybarn. Express an interest on this board and I'll do my best to find out. I've always had an interest in Faith Asembly and am more than willing to ask questions for you.

I was born and raised in the area of Indiana where "Dr." Freeman "taught".

The Glorybarners (I'll back up the previous post stating it really was a barn) actually had a farily large, and uneasy, presence in our small town. Some say as many as 2,000 people in our area were members -- this may seem insignificant compared to Chicago, but it's a fair ammount for rural Noble and Kosciusko counties.

As an elementary school student (1980-1985)I can remember 5-10 students in each of my classes who would leave the room during birthday parties and any type of holiday celebration. My teachers would never explain but my parents told me they were Glorybarners and changed the subject. In many ways the Glorybarners were looked down upon by others in our community who viewed them as cult members, not as followers of a branch of Christianity.

Regardless of what Micheal Malarky said in a previous post, Dr. Freeman hurt many, many people in our small town. The American Family Foundation reports that over 100 members died as a result of Dr. Freeman's teachings. Children weren't given innoculations, corrective lenses, or even seemingly insignificant topical medications for things such as poison ivy and diaper rash. I've heard stories of people dying from diabetes and pneumonia -- I even remember a baby dying of what I later found out was meningitis. Her parents were convicted of reckless homicide and neglect of a dependent in the mid-80s. Another baby also died of meningitis, but the charge of reckless homicide was dismissed after they renounced their Faith Assembly beliefs. I think this happened around 1992-93.

The sick part of all of this is that Dr. Freeman attributed the deaths of 100 of his followers to a lack of faith in God's ability to heal, not his own misguided preaching.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Dr. Freeman was an evil person -- just severely misguided in his beliefs.

The actual glory barn met its demise in a suspicious fire after media reports of the deaths of his followers. A few years ago the chimney was still standing in the field where the church was located, but it may have been removed since the last time I was there.

Dr. Freeman met his demise from either blood poisoning or gangreene after breaking one of his toes. I probably don't need to say this, but he certainly would have lived if he had sought medical treatment. I guess his faith wasn't strong enough either.

Most of the Glorybarners left the church after this because Dr. Freeman had said he would live forever, just like Jesus. I've heard that he said he would rise again after three days. He didn't.

I also can't believe that there are some out there who still belive Dr. Freeman's teachings.

The final effect of Dr. Freeman's teaching was that he drove many young people away from belief in God.

Believe me, the Faith Assembly was definitely a detriment to our community.

[Anonymous]

I wrote the above posting.

After writing it my curiousity was again piqued.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/foc/foc3.html reports that Dr. Freeman died of bronchial pneumonia, not blood poisoning.

Still, I bet a little penicillin would have gone a long way.

[david ash]

To All:

Two people in my family both met with an early demise because of Dr. Freeman's theology. They died of cancer, which by the time they sought help, the doctors told them there was nothing that could be done. In addition to this, my favorite aunt has also long followed Dr. Freeman's brand of faith. Her teeth have rotted in her head, all the while she has confessed she has no cavities.

My aunt is a particularly tragic story. She has locked herself away for more than two decades. No church is good enough and no Christians are worthy her attention. Like Dr. Freeman and from his tone, Micheal Markley, there is no real compassion for others, especially those who go unhealed. Afterall, if they only had the faith, all their problems would disappear.

After seeking unsuccessfully for many years to help my aunt. I think I've learned a little about Dr. Freeman and where he and his followers went astay. First, his charasmatic personality led people to worship the man, rather than God. My aunt has many times shook her finger at me and said, "Don't talk ill of Dr. Freeman. You risk devine retribution!" Secondly, they put their faith in faith, rather than faith in God. To them, faith becomes some sort of power in and of itself, a kind of "Trust the force, Luke" Star Wars thing. They are taught it's all a matter of formula, say the right words and have the right thoughts. Any who fails to be healed is trampled in the dust as lacking faith or having unrepentent sin. It is truly ironic these beliefs go on even when their leaders like Dr. Freeman can't make it work and die themselves from ordinary maladies. But then, isn't that what the whole world seeks, health and prosperity? Just turn on the TV to see how much advertising is geared toward making us feel better or get richer.

In any event, beliefs such as these lead people away from the one and only truth, Jesus Christ. Emphasis is centered around having enough faith to change reality and obey all the legalistic edicts of the sect. In my aunts case, she can't perform personal hygene (tooth brushing etc), own a smoke detector, seek medical or any other assistance from others, wear glasses instead of squinting over her large print Bible, associate with anyone she deems a lukewarm Christian and the list goes on and on forever.

This is not what Christians are to be about or to stress. Any professing believer in Christ Jesus would do well to remember Matthew 25:31-46.

I would be very interested in carrying on a discussion with anyone who has an interest. I've studied Dr. Freeman quite a bit and still hope for my aunt's recovery from spiritual pride and legalism.

[Bob Dobarganes]

To David Ashe, Anonymous, and Others:

While I have not been directly or indirectly influenced by the teachings of Dr. Freeman, I find it amazing how so many people have been mesmerized by Brother Freeman and his heretical teachings. Maybe it's because I was raised an Episcopalian and Pentecostal fundamentalism is so foreign to me.

I am seeking information about Faith Assembly and the Glory Barn for a magazine article I'm writing. Specifically, I'm researching the backgrounds of Hobart Freeman and Charles Meade of End Time Ministries, a spin-off of Faith Assembly, now known as Meade Ministries headquartered in Lake City, Fla. Meade lived in Muncie, Ind. for many years where he worked for the Ball Bros. Manufacturing Co. (approx. 1946-1966) now known as Ball Corp.

After he left Ball apparently in the early 1970s (this is in question since Ball won't confirm his employment dates), he seems to have been affiliated with Freeman in some way through a local church in Muncie at which Freeman preached on his traveling circuit. According to another source, Meade appears to have been preaching at the Glory Barn in upstate Indiana along with Freeman. So the story goes, Freeman started preaching against Meade as a "false prophet" and kicked him out. There is very little info available on this. Is there anyone who can confirm this?

Meade subsequently moved to Daleville, Ind. where he began preaching out of his garage, making cassette tapes, and developing a loyal following. Then around 1974-75, Meade began traveling back and forth to Sioux Falls, So. Dakota, preaching to young, impressionable high school and college students and giving them tapes to constantly listen to. The nucleus of his new group, loosely known as "The Assembly," consisted of 4 to 5 students from Northwestern Univ. in Evanston, Ill. who had ties to Sioux Falls. Besides groups in Evanston, Muncie, and Sioux Falls, a group was also set-up in Billings, Montana.

Then, in 1984-85, Meade started moving all four groups to Lake City, Fla. His wife, at the time, was Marie Buckley Meade, who died of untreated breast cancer shortly after arrival. He remarried three weeks after her death to another woman who was a member of the group from So. Dakota. Now, at age 86, he has built a multi-million dollar church, the largest of its design in the world, by the way, with a congregation of around 1,000 or more.

Certainly mind control plays a large part in how these cultic religious groups operate. People from many states were overwhelmingly persueded to move to Florida. Their services apparently invoke speaking in tongues, chanting, singing, and jumping up and down. Cassette tapes of sermons by Freeman and Meade were (and still are) constantly listen to, to the exclusion of anything else. What else?

Meade Ministries is, by all accounts, a much more wealthy, controlled, carbon copy of Faith Assembly right here in Florida. Less is actually known about the early beginnings (and teachings) of the Glory Barn/Faith Assembly. These postings certainly help but it's been three months since the last postings. I would be interested in dialogues with all parties on this subject.

[Burt]

Yes I have been there.
I grew up in a family whose beliefs were with the faith assembly.
Not too sure how much I want to talk about it now. but email if iterested in chatting some.

[Laura Smith (208.6.170.3)]

If anyone still reads this thread, I have a question. I recently looked at a facility in Indiana (noble county) that I was told was home to the "Glory Barn" church, that was closed by the state about 10+ years ago due to many suspicious deaths. Anyhow, an earlier poster said the building burned, but I am wondering if it was rebuilt? Anyhow, I'm interested in learning more about this, if anyone knows!

[tomax7 (68.147.153.246)]

Hello all

Having sat under Dr. Freeman, I must say the man had a passion in making sure the Bible was preached in its completness. While all the negative things that happened, and I don't have an answer for it, there is a heck of a lot of good that went on there also.

I got "delivered" if you take it or leave doesn't bother me, from a range of emotional baggage and sin. Literally I knew things were leaving me.

As for healings, I saw things happen in my life an others that were beyond explaination so healings did take place.

Why not for everyone? I don't know. Yes the one thing missing in the preaching was Grace. Grace to let others grow at their own speed.

Seems the church grew so fast and things were happening almost weekly at Faith Assembly, the new building, I believe the zeal of the people is partly to blame what happened. Legalism crept in and a false hyper-faith grew in such an environment that deaths occured and sadly could have been prevented by medical attention.

Nevertheless God is still faithful and did heal. But as to why not always, I guess we have to learn more about grace and not giving up.

Sadly a lot of teens, like a previous poster stated, have fallen or turned their backs on God. This hurts me, but at the same time I guess one has to move on and realize it still is a personal walk with God. Not excusing the either the parents or the teens, but I do know from reading emails sent to me, the teens were neglected and expected to grow up quickly in the faith environment. This was not fair and hindsite would show the adults were guilty of this special ministry, even to toddlers, like a "sunday school". Somewhere has to be the balance in all this. On one side we have in the Old Testiment, they took rebellious teens out of the city and stoned them, on the other side we have Timothy where it says children will become disobediant and rebellious.

So where does one draw the line to say the Bible is true and we should follow it?

That is a personal choice, and unfortunatly for Faith Assembly and Dr. Freeman we were caught blindsided by legalism and destroyed what could have, well was for a bit, a mighty move of God not seen since the big revivals in Chicago and California and such.

Myself, I have balanced my life out with medical attention, like going to the dentist (my heart goes out for David Ash's aunt) and health check ups, and prayer. I generally pray first for symptoms and they go away without side effects, but some linger, some like cavity don't heal. So I go get it fixed. Why don't they get healed? I don't know, but I don't throw out what I know is true - Jesus still heals today.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If He healed and delivered me back in 1980, He can do it today.

Do I condemn others for going to seek medical help? No, not at all. But I do feel sad if at the first sign one doesn't seek God, rather than seek the asprin bottle as society is so conditioned today.

cheers
tom

[tomax7 (68.147.153.246)]

Sorry for the spelling mistakes of my previous post, please see past that, it's 2am here and I didn't feel like proof reading.

[Anonymous (165.138.198.101)]

ok i just want to know how people who beleive in this dont see that God heals through doctors and medicine...isnt it obvious? if he didnt want people to learn how to heal he wouldnt have let them...as a society we make advances in medicine and save lives every day...if that was "wrong" dont you think god would stop it? doctors and medicine save lives...anyone who cant see that is brainwashed by this hobart guy...my cousin died years ago...before i was born...becuase he was diabetic...people shouldnt die from diabetes...he fell for the crap that that guy preached and payed the ultimate price...his wife stood there and "prayed" for him instead of calling for real help...god gives people the wisdom to learn how to heal and nobody in this cult seems to realize that is how god heals...not always through these "miracles"...its my opinion that anyone who stands by and watches someone die from something that could easily be treated should be punished by the law...dont these people see that after their leader died from breaking his toe?? ive broken my toe many times and im still here...i think anyone in this cult needs to re'evaluate what they are doing in their lives...god wants people to be healed...thats why there are doctors..

[Anonymous (222.151.8.124)]

As a kid growing up in sattelite churches (bodies as I think they were called) I and other kids didnt really have much of a choice but to hear and obey the crap that Hobart and his subordinates taught. Yeah, I was one of those kids who had to go to school and feel different, no parties and all that, religous immunizations. At least we got to go to school, I guess some of the kids ended up home schooled or went to a school that the Faith assembly wackos had created. School was the only contact me and my brother had with "worldly" activities for a long time. Of course there was no sports, dating, of course none of that as those people were non belivers. Some people need something to hold on to, but we kids shouldnt of been punished for it(spare not the rod when your kid is caught listening to that radio) To me, Freeman was nothing but an educated fool. What gives him or anyone else the right to preach the crap he did, because he attended some seminary? Had a vision? I mean come on, how could you sit back and call yourself a man of God and collect these peoples money while their children die as a result of your teaching? Strong faith? my behind! something went wrong in his head somewhere down the road. I had to jump through a lot of hurdles that other people didnt because of this experience, you know feelings of being different. I mean it was a parents decision, true, but I feel he holds responsibilty for it too. Its one thing for an adult to try and reach out for something, but kids had no business in that mess. There was some good to it, but there is good to be found in almost anything. You cant justify it.

[Anonymous (63.241.218.46)]

wow. there is something catharctic about reading these posts. I grew up in a 'body' as well - in Vermont, walked away from it all and have only recently come back to a place where God's grace never ceases, His mercies are new every morning - great is His faithfulness. I wonder how many more of us there are out there.

[Anonymous (148.78.243.51)]

I also grew up under that crap.

The idea that the Bible teaches that
we have "divine" healing under the
atonement, in this life, is ludicrous.

It is theological error. Yes, God heals,
but through various means.

[Anonymous (208.10.193.4)]

I attended one of the "Body" churches in 1982-1984. ( I am 52 years old now). At that time I had four children and an alcoholic husband. The people that went to the Body were found to be very legalistic and were not very patient with me in trying to grow into the faith taught there. I felt very guilty for not growing as fast as they thought I should be. At the time, I was barely able to make it from day to day while living in a horrible home situation. Becasue they condemed the woman for wearing pants, I wore pants only at home or when not in church. I also wore glasses because I have an eye disease. Once one of the men from the church saw me wearing pants and my glasses in public and did not take someone from the church to speak with me about it, as the bible says to do. He made a display out of me in one of the meetings. Given my problems at the time, I should never have had to endure the embarrasement of that for it was not out of love or grace, it was out of a very ridgid teaching.I was sincerly trying as hard as I knew how to grow into the faith teaching, but it was not enough nor was it fast enough. Eventually I left. But other relatives remained in another body in another state and it did some damage to our relationships-Hobarts teaching did. My husband went through a hospital program to conquer his alcoholism some 20 years ago, and has a testimony for what God did for him at that time. I praise God for that program even though it was a program that would have surely been deemed a bad thing by the church leaders. We are in a good bible believing church that does practice grace and love and 3 of our 4 children are in church and serving the Lord. God is good and although we have gone through some hard things and the teachings of that church was apart of it all, we have come out of all of it stronger.I know it has hurt many people and some of you have had stronger ties with parents in it etc. But God can make you a stronger person for it if you will let Him.

[Anonymous (67.9.136.219)]

Anyone know how they came to terms with Matthew 9:12 and Mark 2:17 ?... Luke 5:31 or Col 4:14 ?

[marciluke (65.26.196.69)]

I also grew up in the church, having attended both Faith Assembly and a "body" in Lafayette, Indiana under Bruce Kinsey. I would be interested to hear from others that were influenced by this.

[Brother Ruben (68.111.240.191)]

I studied under Dr. Freeman for many years, and must say that I was blessed and inspired by the way he taught the scriptures. Healing is not all Dr. Freeman taught.You people that are proclaiming him a "nut" and a "heritic" simply do not know his teachings. The teachings always put the responsibility on the hearer to be sure that their faith was truely faith and not presumption. Dr. Freeman never told anyone not to go to a doctor, in fact he said if you have a nickel's worth of faith and a dime headach you needed to do something. The truth is found in scripture and not in any man's head. Stop looking to man and look to God. Man will always let you down, God never will. Seek God and trust him. Jesus said the our teacher is the Holy Spirit, He will lead us into all truth.

[Anonymous (208.10.193.197)]

Ummm. In comment to the above message, then why in the "Body" churches, men who also studied under him, were we taught that "leaning to the arm of the flesh was wrong" and that if you went to the doctor, not only were you in sin, but you also lacked faith? Those of us that went for any length of time, and were taught these things learned well what he taught because the teachers in the Body churches were products of Dr.Freeman's teachings. We learned so well that when we began to get free of the teachings and come out of it, that we were very confused to the point of wondering if we were now in danger of losing our salvation. In my case, I had to sit down with the Bible and decide just what I really did believe as opposed to what I was trying to believe because I was really confused. Doesn't that sound somewhat like a cult? How about brain washing? Did anyone else have that experience? And you are right in that we should look to God because man will let you down. That is exactly what I did and guess what-God used the book of Romans to deliever me of a lot of the teachings I had learned under Freeman's teaching! And Praise God I am not under all that pressure to live up to the stuff that Freeman taught. I love the Lord. I try to be the best christian I can be. But I am not perfect and do not pretend to be and I fall short. That is where God's grace and forgiveness comes in. And that is where Freeman's teaching and a lot of the people under it, falls short. I have forgiven them, but you are right-they let me down and I thank God I am out of that and into what real freedom in Christ is!

[dr.allen wilson (68.123.234.207)]

does anyone have hobart freeman on videotape? any info of the whereabouts of his family members? thanks,dr.allen wilson

[DRALLEN WILSON (68.123.234.207)]

does anyone have hobart freeman on video?what about the location of his family members? thanks,dr.allenwilson elijahwhirlwind@hotmail.com

[Anonymous (208.10.193.175)]

As I read through these posts, I cannot help but weigh the negative with the postive. Sorry to those of you that have had good experiences in this sect/cult/church (or whatever else you want to call it), but those of us that have the negative ones sure outweigh you. Doesn't that tell you people something? Maybe you should take your blinders off like we did.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Anyone who wants to know about Charles Meade or Meade Ministries can email me.I grew up in that church.
Email: cookie2930@aol.com

[angie saft markiewicz (68.210.51.123)]

Wow! I am so sorry that those who claim to be christians can cause so much pain and yet believe that they are doing as Christ would have them to do. I am sorry that as people we can get so caught up in our sin (pride) and in the name of Jesus hurt others. The fact is though we are sinful people and we are not are not Christ nor are we like Him in any way. We can beg God to teach us to take on some of who He is that we can be able to love and serve and to forgive but I don't believe we will be any thing close to what He is being that our sin will often get in our way. I once was in the Columbus Body with my mother and three brothers. I was 10 years or so and tried to believe in healing for a eye disease. I had much faith as a child so I thought. But now I am 32 and have not recieved a total healing. A few years ago I nearly went blind, and for a time had little vision. I asked God that if He had brought some kind of healing I would devote all of my eye power or vision to reading books and the bible to cause me to grow closer to Him. He granted this through surgery. I only read now things that will cause me to grow closer to Him for I do not know how much time He will give me. But in all my past faith did not help, I decided at 22 that I no longer wanted any thing to do with this group of believers. I serched the word and found God to be very different then what I knew of Him before. Now we are in a bible believing church that even the pastor sins against us and lets us come to him and talk to him about it. He is a man who teaches the work of God with great help from God and those who are above him but he does not claim to be a "Man of God". He once said that our church is for sinners and we all will sin against each other. I am the biggest sinner of all and I know therefore I am in a good place to not only learn of my sin but learn of Gods grace. As I learn of the grace of God I then learn how to give it to others and not be shocked of the sins of my fellow brothers and sisters. I also know I need a Savior every moment of my life...and i know that in me there is nothing good unless God Himself puts it there. My heart is healing but it is because God is doing it on His time. My faith is bigger because He is doing a great work in me. some times I wonder if faith comes after seeing God do things in my life that is amazing to me. I can not heal my own heart but God can. I hope and pray that those who suffered in the body type churches will find a savior full of love and grace and that they will realize that yes people such as Freeman may have causeed confussion and suffering, he still is a man, a sinner as we all are and it would be just like satan to use such fire to hurt us and pin us against each other. Please ask God to help you for give those who have hurt you so that you can go on and help others heal as well. Don't let satan enjoy turning christain against christain. I believe Freeman was saved and I believed he went to heaven but I believe to that he was in much sin as we all are and that when he went to stand before God, God showed him his own heart and then God I am sure showed His heart to Freeman. I will bet Freeman had regrets...Take care of regrets here on earth that God will use your siffering to help others.

[anita (208.20.45.71)]

Hello;
I too had my formative years in faith assembly. I began attending as a teen in a s.w. michigan body and soon was also attending fri,sat, sun, weds services at the glory barn. I attended another group in grand rapids michigan while living there.
I left after about 10 years. I couldn't reconcile the ever evolving legalism and staying away from unbelievers as the reason so many were dying. I met and married a man from faith assembly who stopped going and therefore was in sin. If i were to remain married yet couldn't fellowship with unbelievers and have my prayers answered where did this leave me? Was God so lame that talking to the neighbors was gonna give the devil permission to attack my faith?
I miss the innocence of the early 70's in faith assembly where people were worshiping the Lord and wanting to learn without all the legalism that followed.
Faith assembly teachings have ruined alot of people's lives and faith. 10 or more years after i left faith assembly I sat with my mother as she died of an easily treatable disease (an ulcer)while still holding to the teachings begun by Hobart Freeman.
After screwing up the courage to leave the body I went through a period of "If i'm gonna burn in hell anyway I might as well have fun" and a period of being terrified that god was going to take one of my children as a penalty for leaving the faith.
I think it is shameful that something started with such sincerity went so sincerely wrong.
To those of you who grew up as young children of faith assembly I am so sorry to have participated in this mindset that was so so hard on the children.
I have really struggled with the echos of their teaching in trying to find a place in christian society.
I remember a day when I was so depressed and sat in a corner and said listen God this is how it is: I can't even read the bible without this crap overwhelming me, I am gonna stop hurting others, try to stop hurting myself and that is going to have to be it for a while until I can get this stuff out of my head.
My kids who were very young when I left did suffer the stigmitization but I left at the time my oldest was just about to start school. But you can't make a kid like others (no santa claus, no easter bunny) when they have heard it for years. I see my eldest son so much more tender toward his children's fantasies than I had ever been and it shames me.
I still have former in laws in faith assembly. They still use every chance they get to attack me and my children for having left. I would tell my kids-I don't care how they act you treat them as you would any other aunt and uncle and send a graduation announcement. Their reply? A letter stating we received your graduation announcement. So what? What good will it do you if you are going to burn in hell.
My neice sent my daughter in law on the eve of a life and death surgery a e mail card at the hospital saying that if she didn't get right with god she was going to die and burn in hell.

My children were told that their mother was going to burn in hell because she was an adulterous whore. (I was divorced and remarried) and the parents' response when called on the carpet (our kids don't say whore to anyone) was: the truth is sometimes hard to hear. Now what kind of conversation is that for a group of kids to be hearing so that they repeat it?

There are people who have successfully left faith assembly without alot of outward appearance of trauma to their faith. I think of Ray Boltz for one but the numbers seem to fall to the other extreme. We are the walking wounded. Spiritually abused by those we considered friends and teachers.

Not allowed the common courtesy of being able to grieve as we saw 100s of people we knew and loved die as a result of pride in faith.

I am at least glad that I had so little confidence or arrogance to realize that my heart was not always pure and therefore believe that I had better take my kids to the dr if they were really sick and none of them died before I left faith assembly. It was not something I told people in the body for shame sake but at least my kids are still here.

To the poster that said the nickle faith, dime illness quote I am glad none of your loved ones died. My mom was a member of faith assembly for 25 years. If you were at all a member and I posted her picture you would know her and know of her personal integrity, her faithfullness to the Lord, her true belief in the whole teachings of faith assembly teachings and you should be ASHAMED of slandering those who died! That is the real insult to me that if someone died the cop out was they lacked faith, they were in some unknown untold sin etc. I will go to my grave saying to you open your eyes learn something besides what tickles your ears. God is not some celestial santa claus waiting to give you what you demand while you sit and do nothing to help yourself.
When my friend Krista died they went into her home and removed every trace of her belonging to the group, notes, tapes, books etc. to keep the bodies name out of the media. Shame on those people!

When my friend Alice and her unborn baby died I stood at the grave during the ceremony and choked back tears and said she was with the Lord now. Well she is, but it was a waste pure and simple.

[Anonymous (208.10.193.186)]

Anita: I am so sorry for what you have went through in that church. As I stated in my post, I was in one of the body churches. I was not raised in the church, but attended after my sister had been going there for some time. She "believed" me in. I did try hard to learn the teachings and go with them. However, because my husband was an alcoholic at the time, the good news was, that because he did not go there, he did help me keep one foot sort of out of the church, if you will. In other words, I never fully embrased the teachings, even though I wanted to. When it came to doctors, I did try "believing" for my kids healing as well as myself. If it came right down to it though, I took them to the doctor rather then let them continue being sick. I lied a lot during that time, not only to my family who by then attended a body in another church, but to the body I was going to. I either lied or let them believe that I was not going to doctor's etc. I had to ask God's forgiveness for that later. I realized at some point that I was more concerned about what they thought about me rather then what God thought about me. Again as I stated, the book of Romans was what really set me free. I can only imagine how confused and brain washed some are that were born or raised into the church were/are. I was not and yet I had come out of it very much so and it took a long time to get free of it even when I realized that my salvation did not depend on that church. It has in some ways made me a better person, a stronger one because no longer do I let other people dictate how I believe. I weigh all my beliefs by the bible and not by what man says. Unfortunalty because of this, it caused real divsison between my sister and myself. No, she is no longer a part of a body, but is in some other teaching that appears to be just as dangerous. But once I took a stand for myself, things have never been the same between us. God help us for not just loving each other as Christ loves His church. But I am still expected to believe the way she does or else I am in the wrong. I cannot, nor will I ever compromise again.

Again, I sorry you went through what you did. Let this experince though work for your good as God promises in Romans 8:28.

God bless in your endevors to know the truth.

[michael markley (204.110.227.176)]

Jesus died that we as His people through faith can obtain salvation. Jesus sent His chosen people the comforter and gave His elect exceeding great precious promises that we can through faith escape the corruption of this present evil world.
I thank Jesus that He is Lord of all and His name is above all names, and that Jesus has all power in both heaven and earth. I admonish those of you who have been blessed with the truth to above all stand with a shield of faith ,don’t be deceived by the enemy that has these deceitful workers turning the truth into a lie.
Jesus loves you all and is the answer to all your needs ,He is the great physician and the best assurance and the most knowledgeable teacher and the strongest protector and He has chosen His people because they are not of this world. I admonish you all ,don’t place your faith in the carnal minded world that’s a enmity to God these institutions will soon fail and men’s hearts will fail ,remember Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
michael

[Anonymous (65.6.98.106)]

To All,
In the mid to late 70's I would occasionally
listen to Hobart E Freeman's taped messages from
the Glory Barn. I lived in Louisiana. The messages preached and taught were most inspiring.
He was no nut nor cult leader. He challenged people. I never felt condemned from listening to his tapes for my lack of faith. I believe that he was inspiring.
I think that possibly the problem arose not from Dr. Freeman but from the congregation. In every church there are the same type of "church" people who believe that they have it all and condemn others who aren't as successful as they are in varous areas of their lives.
I believe that Dr. Freeman had a level of faith that most of us do not have. I believe he lived in a spiritual relm that most of us do not know how to enter.
From what I have read, I believe that many tragically wanted to please Dr. Freeman in their attempt to stay away from the doctor. I believe that many made a god of faith and forgot the tender mercies and love of our Father. They were trying to please man and not God.
I personally believe that many today have made gods of medicine and doctors. I beleive that many tragedies happen as a result of the physician. I don't mean that it is a sin to see a doctor or that you shouldn't go for a consultation or have surgery if that is your choice. I personally believe that we need to return to herbal medicine!
Since I was not a part of the Glory Barn, I can not comment on the daily activities of the church.
I believe that Jesus does heal miraculously. I believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to all of us today. My sister-in-law's parents are missionaries to Mexico. They have had many unexplained miracles happen in their daily living. Check out David Hogan. He is also a missionary in Mexico. He has a ministry of miracles. Read his testimony. Miracles do exist.
To all who have been hurt by the Glory Barn:
Forgive and go on. It seems that the hurt is deep. But don't miss out on eternity with God just because you are angry.

[michael markley (204.110.228.183)]

Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Dr Freeman’s teaching was inspired and was the truth .
There are a chosen few that today would rather follow Jesus than worship the enemy “the god of this world” The truth they follow is not in the wisdom of men ,but rather “in the scripture” .
The faithful will “stand on the word.” the true and faithful will always followed Jesus .
There were those that blindly followed Dr. Freeman and they never established faith in Jesus ,just as the parable of the sower ,some fell by the way side.
Jesus has sent His people a comforter that will guide them into all truth, and has gave His elect promises so those who believe in them can escape the corruption of this world.
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The world is deceived and the carnal minded institutions is not where the overcomer exercises faith.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The Lords people Love Jesus and place all their faith in Him and believe His promises that He has gave us out of His great Love for the Church. To the special people Jesus becomes their ” teacher ,protector ,healer.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Just shall live by faith ,Hebrews 10:38
Fight the good fight of faith,1 tim 6:12
Saved by faith, luke 7:50
justified by faith, Rom 3:28,
Stand by faith ,2 cor 1:24

Prayer faith will heal save the sick ,james 5:14,15
More than conquerors ,rom 8:37
He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world ,1 john 4:4
Resist the devil and he will flee us ,james 4:7
Above all take a shield of faith, eph 6;16

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Mark 11:24 (KJV) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

All things were created By Jesus and He has all power in heaven and on earth ,I admonish you all to give your heart to the Lord
Michael
michaelmarkley@yahoo.com

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

Sermons Live via Paltalk from "Faith Assembly!"

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/sermonsonpaltalk.htm

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

Digitizing Update

Recorded Teachings by Hobart E. Freeman, ThD

For quick reference, a simple list of digitized messages by Hobart E. Freeman.
As more messages are digitized, we will add them to this list and mark them
with an asterisk in the listing on the Faith Ministries &amp; Publications website.

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/DigitizedMessages.htm

[Anonymous (66.119.33.155)]

I sat under Hobart Freeman during the late 70's and early 80's and can say that to this day, some 20 years later, I'm still traumatized and suffering the effects of it. I remember the day, I clearly heard it said "it was better to die than to trust in the arm of the flesh"... What probably started out as something good became legalistic and judgemental. The pressure not to seek medical care was traumatizing. The message above about the baby that died from meningitis and the parents being arrested and charged is probably my cousin's 10 month old daughter that passed away from meningitis. You know, I heard that they believed that she really wasn't dead. God would raise her up. My sister's baby died in childbirth and my sister nearly did. That was the hardest thing she had ever been through and our hearts broke for her. My 4th child was born shortly after I walked away from that ministry and he was born club-footed. It was "implied" that he was born that way because I walked away from the message. I'll never forget the pain I felt from that insinuation. Yes, there was some awesome and deep teaching that came out of Faith Assembly, but, the horror far outweighs the good! I have suffered damages and continue to suffer as a result of that ministry. Did anyone ever notice that all the little children were like identical little robots???? They looked the same, talked the same, dressed the same, etc. I have never been able to become involved in any church since. I would rather die than to go back to that teaching. Somebody please tell me how to get it out of me totally and completely! It feels strangely like I've been brain-washed!

[Anonymous (66.174.6.205)]

Jeremiah 17:5 (KJV) Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

[Anonymous (208.10.193.57)]

Annoy.66.119.33.155

I feel for you as I know how you must be suffering from all you went through. As I have said in some of my posts, I came out of that teaching, very confused to the point of almost being disoreinted for a time. I wasn't sure if I was even saved. I got free from it after a time because I read through the whole book of Romans and settled in my own heart what I believed instead of what I had been taught and tried to take as truth. I was out of church for awhile, but then got involved in a good bible teaching church which was very much UNLIKE that one. I would encourage you to first read through Romans and decide what you believe and not just take what man's teaching are, but weigh them against the truth of the Word. Then find a good church. There are many out there. We are admonsihed to "not forsake the assembling of the body" and we as Christians need each others support. But we need it in a good bible teaching church. As I stated in my post to Anita above, please let your experience work to your good as in Romans 8:28 and also God bless you in your endevors to find the truth, as well.

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

Rom 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

Mark 11:22
So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!

James 2:20
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

James 2:22
Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James 2:25
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Who will stand before The Lord on The Judgement Day and say, "It was all Dr. Hobart E. Freeman's fault?"

[Tom McLaughlin (68.147.218.223)]

I have posted on my site my thoughts and feelings as to what happens, and it is sad to hear how many young people's lives got screwed up, but at the same time how many people got to hear a 'pure' word before things became legalistic.

http://www.tomax7.com/thoughts/faith_assembly.htm

From reading the posts here and the emails sent to me, there is a lot of hurting and confused people. God is not the author of confusion, but that is not to say Faith Assembly or Dr. Freeman were authors of confusion either. We as a Body went astray, everyone to their own way Isaiah 53.

To the person just posting scriptures here, go look in the mirror and get a life. That is exactly the reason why FA fell apart, all talk but no mercy. Can quote scripture, but miss the most important one - Love. Love covers a multitude of sins, so according to the Bible quoter here, if he/she knows more than us, then don't just spout scripture, but show compassion first.

Grace was something missing from the pure Word taught, but I belive it is coming back into our lives. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, there has to be a reason why we were taught the Pure Word. Maybe in the coming days with the Anti-Christ and false signs what we learned way back in the 70-80's will keep us. For the new believers and those born after will have the opportunity to show what they believe in their own way, like we had to when things fell apart at Faith Assembly.

Where you following a man or a crowd, or were you following Jesus?

Keep your eyes on Jesus, that is the only thing that will keep you steady in the days ahead.

cheers
tom
www.tomax7.com

[Anonymous (208.10.193.102)]

And you are so right, Tom. Grace was missing from the teachings that came out of Faith Assembly. Realizing that Dr.Freeman and the other teachers are only as human as the rest of us, helps a great deal in getting past the confusion that came out of the teachings. I was one that was following the man.I was more concerned about what they thought of me then what God thought of me. And believe me when I realized that, I ran into problems with my family that still attended there and we don't have much of a relationship to this day although that has been many years ago. It is sad. But it shows that as you say, we need to keep our eyes on Jesus, not on those men. At the same time, those endoctronated into it by family ties etc. it is not an easy road to hoe. And one can become wrapped up into much bitterness and not want anything to do with God. That is one reason why there are so many cults. I do not attempt to know what goes on in Faith Assembly or it's bodies now. I can't really say I want to. It's damage has been done, and there are many still suffering and wounded from it. I am just glad that I am free and that God helped me get through that time of confusion. I feel for those people that are still suffering. The bottom line is love. People can speak in tounges, have the gift of prophesey, and all the rest but if they do not have love then it is all as clanging brass and tingling cymbals. And that is where the Faith teaching lost out and hurt so many of it's people. A christian said once that christians are the sometimes the ones that don't bury their own dead. And it is true and was true in Faith Assembly in more ways then one. Keeping your eyes on Jesus is one thing, but when a church hurts people as Faith Assembly did, and then turns their backs on them etc.it can give one a distored view of what the love Christ is. God help us not be that kind of people. God bless

[Anonymous (66.174.6.205)]

the person who posted these scripture is right.
its sad when a man posts scripture , and is told to "get a Life" the word is the bread of life.
,maybe this person who is offened by the word of God should examine himself. even look in the mirror and ask Jesus to forgive him.its amazing you came to faith assembly a couple times around twenty years ago and claim to know everything. in realty and truth your a abomination.even your adult webstites that you have created are a abomintation. repent ,Jesus loves you and will forgive a person who repents.
you cannot deceived the elect.

[Anonymous (66.174.6.205)]

Love is believing the word and standing on it. Love is Jesus and His promises.Dr Freeman taught Love and the truth, these men that are condeming Dr Freeman are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Dr Freeman always said trust in Jesus and never place your faith in man.Dr Freeman always said not to look at Him but keep your eyes on Jesus.these men that are condemming Dr. Hobart Freeman are workers of iniquity.

[Jake (208.10.193.218)]

To 66.174....Sunday June 27th

Kick me once, shame on you. Kick me twice, shame on me. God expects us to use the brain He gave us. I do not sit in judgement on things that go on at Faith Assembly today, or any of it's "bodies". I do know what I experienced in the past.God in in infinete mercy forgave me and did convict me of following man above Him. It wasn't so much sometimes what Freeman presented as how he presented it. And hence comes in much of the legalism and the fact that it made those of us that were 'weak in the faith' not good enough or not up to par in the teachings. You can speak all you want to of forgiveness and the love of Jesus. And yes, that is so important, but a church or teacher (or Pastor) has to back in up in deed, not just word. I do not pretend to know whether that is being done today in the church. I hope it is for all's sake that attends there. But at the same time, I am not stupid enough to go back and let it happen again. If you were not hurt by all that went on there, I would ask you if you were even a part of it 20-25 years ago? And if you weren't hurt, fine for you to judge those that were. Too many people were and it hasn't been just a small group but many, many people. Seems the wolves have devoured some and tried to devour many others. Ummmm. I would add that I hope you weren't hurt for any hurt that came out of that church that was unbiblical as in the legalism etc. is a shame. It is sad. God bless

[michael (66.174.6.207)]

Teaching people to believe in Jesus and stand on His promises is not legalism ,and teaching people that Jesus is all power in heaven and earth and will honor the promises He makes is not legalism either, some people cannot face truth without fainting because they have never really came to the cross. Double mindedness produces fear and sin causes instability some even make the mistake of calling reaping and sowing a trial of their faith. Some people foolishly make faith stands while living in unrepentant sin they cannot receive any promise yet will bring persecution upon those who are walking in the light. There are only a few that will take up their cross and die to self. Overcoming is not sinning. "the act of kenosis" is the first step in maturing into the fullness of the stature of Christ. Jesus said many will fall by the way side, when they do they revile the faithful and persecute those who walk in righteousness. Walking holy and perfect is the commandment of our Lord not speaking words of unbelief towards those who "stand on the word"
Dr Freeman had the gift of strength and faith to stand up against the Gainsayers, they kicked at him and spoke evil of the truth revealed in the scripture .The critics of Christ are alive and well and they will be Judged by the words they speak. “There is a small remnant of faithful “soon the world will be Judged and the remnant will overcome by the power of the blood of the Lamb and the testimony of their words not loving their lives even unto death and just as the days of Noah they will be taken away.
michaelmarkley@yahoo.com

Hebrews 10:38 (KJV) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

[Anonymous (208.10.193.96)]

Not allowing people to grow at their own pace, expecting people to obey all the manmade rules a leader has set up without condemnation and not doing so with a spirit of love and grace, is legalizm in it's worst form, You can give all the scripture you want to back up what you are saying, but get back to I Corthians 13. Without love you have nothing. You are sounding brass and clanging cymbols.. And sorry to have to say this, but that is what embodied much of the teachings that came from Faith Assembly.

[FreeinJesus (166.144.39.104)]

faith assembly back then under Dr .Freeman’s guidance “had a direction “,and that’s more than can be said of what’s happening now. Dr. Freeman never allowed gross sinful immorality by anyone connected to His leadership (co administration). Just because people listen to a “dead mans tapes “dose not mean they are alive in the Holy Spirit “the Holy Spirit produces Fruits of righteousness” ,not the abomination acts of profanity and debase immorality or condones leadership of such . The sad truth is faith assembly went back to “the land of Goshen” and has “degraded the Light of Jesus into works of darkness”…..
Dr. Freeman can no longer defend the truth He taught and has been hijacked.
Jesus said let the dead bury the dead and sent the Holy Spirit to a live church.

Matthew 23:27 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 8:22 (KJV) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit and He is alive and His elect will follow Him and not have fellowship with darkness………

Ephes. 5:11 (KJV) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

[Dr. David Coleman (205.188.117.20)]

greetings in Jesus , The most wonderful thing is about to happen. saints who God placed together by a large multitude and had different lifestyles some even unpleasaent, such as the carnal christians at Corinthians, were being tested in their faith. They were to bring forth righteousness at certain opportunities and missed the mark. the good news is they can be restored to faith and trust God once again because God at this time is preparing to lead them back together in his providential and predestinated plan. He is sovereign and cannot fail. By seeking his face God will lead to this prepared place of restoration love Dr. Dave. amen.

[Anonymous (66.174.6.207)]

Join paltalks "deeper life in discipleship" room endorsed by "faith asembly" and playing teaching tapes by Dr. Hobart Freeman

Ephes. 5:11 (KJV) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.


Luke 17:3 (KJV) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.


1 Tim. 5:20 (KJV) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

(Message edited by admin on November 13, 2004)

[Anonymous (66.174.6.207)]

contact faith assembly and tapes by Dr.Hobart Freeman,also paltalk rooms and times
http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/

PalTalk room name: Deeper Life and Discipleship Mark S. Scaliotti
Hobart E. Freeman, Th.D., founding pastor of Faith Assembly, recorded messages
Monday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, "Growth to Full Stature"
Tuesday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, "Biblical Theology"
Thursday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, "The Gifts of the Holy Spirit"
Saturday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, "Hebrews"

PalTalk room name: Faith that Works

Hobart E. Freeman, Th.D., founding pastor of Faith Assembly, recorded messages
Sunday, 8:30 a.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, tapes from Brother Freeman's "Faith" series.

Joe Brenneman, present pastor of Faith Assembly, recorded messages
Friday, 7:30 p.m. Eastern (Indiana) time, "I Peter" series

[Anonymous (66.174.6.207)]

John 1:1-5 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Anonymous (66.174.6.207)]

faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen

[Anonymous (220.108.116.251)]

Im glad to see all these post and people sharing their feelings. For awhile, I thought maybe I was the only one that had feelings of being tramuatized,ect. I remeber going to a church where we would listen to Hobarts tapes because they didnt have a pastor. The whole thing was a mess. Some people feel they need to reach out for something, people like my parents, when they are faced with what appears to be a hopeless situation. Hobart was there to provide that hope (i.e faith healing) To me, it was a cult, and there is no defending it. We live in a democratic country but Hobart denied us kids growing up in that mess a normal American lifestyle. Call it worldly if you want, but didnt he and his subordinates get to grow up in a normal American home? I got the crap beat out of me for just wanting to wear a wordly T shirt. Others didnt get off that easy, they died. Adults deserve punishment, but kids? come on. This is where I draw the line. Hobart could of seen this. He didnt care.

[Anonymous (60.34.154.170)]

I have to say, however, that it did give my Mom hope in a bad time, and she still holds on to it, but it just isnt right, what we all had to go through.

[Anonymous (218.47.92.71)]

I ran away from it all as a teen. I will never defend it. Ive been running from it for a very long time. There are some here who seem to be defending it, quoting your scripture, honoring Freeman, ect. thats your call, your choice, I wont judge you. I guess the experience produced two different kinds of people, or there were people who joined for their own reasons, and then there were people like me who didnt have a choice.

fanntail@hotmail.com

[Anonymous (166.102.251.160)]

Boy, does this ever stir up memories! I must be the golden oldie here as I sat under Dr. Freeman's teachings in the late '60s as a budding teen fresh out of a Presbyterian church. He was teaching on demonology let alone I had never even heard the gospel preached! Shortly thereafter my mother was diagnosed with cancer (my father had died of cancer 5 years previous) and she's torn about going to the hospital and seeking medical help. She did go and died but we too were told that she would be raised from the dead so 3 church members went up to the casket after the service and commanded life to come back into her body but that did not happen. My two brothers and I actually thought that she would miraculously walk through the door even months later.
Many more tragic stories I could relate . . .

[lawrence Estrey (212.85.12.187)]

He (Hobart Freeman)sounds like an absolute nutcase and I think the whole WOF and much of the charismatic stuff is a total shambles. Would never go back to it and am interested now primarily in everyday living..........

[Anonymous (66.31.28.164)]

I would advise that you pay no attention to Michael Malarky's comments about me. He is a liar.

[michael markley (63.184.232.228)]

who ever you are who called me a liar,, Jesus loves you and so do I.And I forgive you.
michael markley.

[michael markley (63.184.232.228)]

also remember the Bible teaches that the true Christians are known by their fruits,and are not people who manifest darkness and any of you that have been in unrepentant sin and now see the error of this, please contact me and we will regain fellowship.I am especially speaking to the fivefold ministry and coadministration.My door is always open.

michael markley.

[BuzzC (68.202.119.50)]

BuzzC's Spot
Educational

An E-Mail to a member of The EndTimer Cult, dtd 26 Oct 2004

Joel--
Well you were wrong, Mr. Joel Becker. As was the rest of the cultish, crooked outfit you work for. Lonnie from Harry's Heating &amp; Air got my furnace up and runnin' today. All that was needed was a simple relay switch.

Did ya get that? As in NO $500.00 electronic board, per what crackhead employee Randy Keene had told me was needed. As in NO $327 inducer motor that you yourself had told me was needed. As in NO $425 condenser motor. $165 IS the nationwide average for a condenser fan motor. That's what Harry's charged me for one. I paid them a total of $234.56 for a brand new condenser motor and the relay switch, and the LABOR was INCLUDED!

Now that's an actual honest to goodness God fearing company if you ask me. A giant ETHICS check is due for C(r)ook's Heating &amp; Air BIG TIME like... BuzzC ~ Columbia City
P.S. Possibly a GIANT ethics check is needed for the entire cult who claim to be honest business people. S &amp; S Lawn Mowers ripped me off the exact same way about ten years ago, and got away with it because I never pressed charges. You live, hopefully you learn. Please DO NO business at any EndTimer owned business in town. Sadly they now OWN over half the businesses here. Just who have they robbed up there in South Dakota, or Muncie, Indiana etc., to have so much "green?"

BuzzC ~ Lake City, Florida USA

The Endtimer's Cult
http://www.rickross.com/groups/endtimes.html

BuzzC's Letter to the Editor
http://www.rickross.com/reference/endtimes/endtimes25.html

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/588.html?1097727998

BuzzC's Spot
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-buzzcareysinfo

[Anonymous (66.31.28.164)]

Michael,

You are a liar. The door is only open to your ways and not God's. Anyone who disagrees with you, you condemn and you sow discord amongst brethren and you try to win disciples to yourself.
You are a bold face liar and the unrepentant one.

[Anonymous (66.31.28.164)]

Michael,

I also heard that you stalked a girl once? Is this your idea of following Freeman (or Jesus) as you say? LOL

[countmyhair (countmyhair)]

Laura Smith:

It was the glory barn that burned down. The facility you saw was where the glorybarners met after the glory barn burned down. It's a pretty creepy looking place.

[countmyhair (countmyhair)]

I am using my daughter's username since mine has not been approved yet. I am glad she found this site and sent me the link. I have found that talking about the good, bad and the ugly has really been a healing process.
I hurt with those of you who lost loved ones. We really meant well - we wanted to obey Jesus. He does heal, but how do you explain those that died - do we always have to understand or blame someone's lack of faith? I appreciate the comments that I have read about love, mercy and letting people grow.

We need to let God be their God and stop thinking that we need to make them into "God's image". That prideful, legalistic attitude that came down from the pulpit and was perpetuated by the peer pressure of the church is what caused so much harm. We just need to let God grow us up as He sees fit and stop trying to force others into the mold of do's and don'ts that became too much of Faith Assembly.

I find it interesting that so many entries are Anonymous. What are you afraid of? I am not afraid to state who I am, and I think I know who some of the anonymous posts are from. I love you in the Lord, and encourage you to follow Him. Just don't be judgemental of others who don't do everything exactly as you do. God is a God of variety and while his word is true He does deal with all of us at the point where we are. He is not going to have us become robots, or clones.

The whole reason God made man with a free will was to give us the opportunity to chose to love Him because we want to. God doesn't want robots or he wouldn't have allowed sin in His earth and universe in the first place. Life is a test and a trust. We love God because He first loved us, and not out of fear of retribution. We all already deserve death because of sin, but judgemental attitudes is not what Jesus manifested in His ministry here on the earth.

Let's not be afraid to let people talk about their experiences, feelings and hurts that did happen. They can recieve healing and hope by doing this. They don't need anonymous people posting scripture in a judgemental way. God wants his people to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH. We can be honest with God about what hurt us in our experiences with Faith Assembly - and then we can come to a place of peace about what was good and what was hurtful. If you find yourself threatened by an examination of things that were said from the pulpit that caused fear in people's hearts, or were condemning and judgemental - you need to look at your own heart. What are you afraid of? Only God is our judge - we will answer to HIM alone on judgement day. If we honestly seek Him with a sincere heart He recieves us and we have peace with HIM, and ourselves. That is why I am not afraid to post my name.

I am glad this site is here and hope others will have a chance to post and talk about what they experienced. I hope they will recieve God's love and encouragement from others as they grow in their understanding.

Patty Smith

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

to anonymous and all others that read this ,I stand in love with you all,,, even (anonymous in your attack against me),,this accusation is totally false in not true. Yet I forgive you and Love you with the Love of Jesus who died and gave so much for us all. It is written ,To us a Child is born, a Son is given, the government shall be on His shoulders ,His name shall be the Wonderful Counselor ,the Mighty God the everlasting Father..
this is MY Jesus in whom I Love and trust, I only follow Jesus ,never a any man, only Jesus can save us with His Holy Blood

I will be glad to speak to anyone in person on the phone and you can contact me through my email michaelmarkley@yahoo.com
{also I don’t follow Dr Freeman in any way ,I do believe He taught a great deal of biblical truth ,yet faith assembly fell into a bondage of fear and resulted in division and even sin, and I don’t believe it has left. The answer is Jesus and His Love ,Jesus said repent and turn from sin,”Go and sin no more”this can be accomplished by eating the bread of life and drinking the living waters, walking in the spirit, Jesus sent us this wonderful comforter ,to guide us and keep us from evil.
Paul said we preach not with enticing words of mens wisdom but with spirit and power, this Holy Spirit brings life, even everlasting life. but carnally minded Christians are dry and wordy and are an enmity to God.
Jesus said the greatest commandment is Love.
Michael.

[franklin (franklin)]

Mr. Mark, Do these teachings discourage medical treatment for illnesses?

[franklin (franklin)]

"He never said that you could not go to a doctor. He just warned about the dangers of doing so...along with warning about the side effects of medicine."

If that teaching caused someone with a life threatening illness, like cancer, to not receive medical treatment,then he is in part responsible for their death. We are all responsible for how we influence others.

[franklin (franklin)]

My life was saved by a doctor. You say nothing good about doctors. And yet doctors all over the world are saving lives daily. The cases of malpractice are infintesimal compared to the millions of cases of true healings (by doctors with the HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM) with modern medicine.

What you say is dangerous. To promote a total mistrust doctors is a public disservice.

If Bro. Hobart was so smart and right, how come he's dead?

Healing can be done with doctors and prayers. One's not much good without the other. Don't trust man, I agree with. I don't trust what Hobart said. But you can trust the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit heals through our prayers AND through doctors.

If you believe that the Holy Spirit spoke through Hobart, then why is it not possible for the Holy Spirit to work through millions of doctors healing the sick or injured?

Yeah, alot of medicines' side effects are pretty terrible but, in many cases for right now they are the best alternative to death.

Freeman's teachings are greatly flawed because they deny the existence of good Christian doctors who are used by the Holy Spirit for healing.

If one person died because they listened to Freeman instead of going to a doctor and getting proper medical treatment, then someone's got blood on their hands. And it's not the doctor. I believe in healing by faith but many times a good doctor and medical treatment are needed also.

I've never heard of a Faith Healer putting a patient's severed limb back on praying it healed. Doctors do it everyday with great success. Heart transplants. etc. Millions are being saved from death everyday.

Contemporary medicine has reached the high level that it is because of the God of all knowledge revealing what man knows to scientists, researchers and doctors.

There has to be a balance to methods of healing. Healing without a trained medical professional supervising is an imbalance that can have tragic consequences.

Stop endangering people's lives. Tell the whole truth about healing. Not just a partial truth.

[franklin (franklin)]

God KNOWS when we will die. That does not mean that is when God WANTS us to die. God gives us 120 years to live. If we do not live to that age, that is because we did not take care of ourselves, using God's wisdom by listening to the Holy spirit to guide us.

God did not call Hobart home. Hobart died because like all men he did not use God's wisdom in taking care of himself. Don't blame God for anyone's death. satan wants us all to die now, not God. God wants us all to live long and full lives. He gives medical professionals the knowledge and wisdom to help God achieve this plan.

I do not trust in man. You show that you do by believing this false doctrine of Hobart's. You trust that he was speaking for God. He was not.

My dad used to think the same way. All doctors were crooks and inept. He listened to misinformed people like you. Until he had a stroke and heart attack. It was a great awakening for him. He was paralyzed. Through the wisdom that God has shared with doctors and through the Holy Spirit he has regained all that was lost and is healthy now. He is on just enough medication to keep him alive. He has a full life again. Praise God!

If you say that my dad shouldn't have gone to the hospital and should have died, then I will kick your ass!

By giving credit to people in the medical field, you ARE giving credit to God. Any wisdom they have comes from God. All glory is God's.

So if a child is near death after being hit by a car, you would not take him to a hospital to keep him alive? You would just take him to a faith healer? If that is what you would do, and that child dies then I would personally be satisfied to see you go to prison.

How you want to throw away your life is your business. God will judge you accordingly. But when you encourage others to be reckless also, I will fight you.

You are dangerous. You are teaching a false doctrine. satan smiles. satan wins. satan wants to destroy us. You are helping him do that.

[franklin (franklin)]

God is the healer. Not man. Any good, man does, comes from God. God is not a liar. But you are.
You have no scripture that says that for every person that dies, it was God's will.

You are reproached by me for one reason, your foolishness.

You can come to me when a loved one dies at the hands of a phony faith healer. Go to God and ask Him why. He will tell you that you did not trust Him only. You trusted a man instead. You didn't believe that God gives wisdom to all men, of all occupations. Not just some phony faith healer you've put on a pedestal.

If you have a headache do you take aspirin? That was discovered and developed by a medical scientist.

Doctors are like lawyers or any other professional. They work for you. They advise you. You tell them what to do.

Many states have a three strikes law. If a bad doctor is charged with malpractice three times they can not practice medicine again. And they can be sued for every penny they've got. So, bad doctors can be kept in check. Can you do the same with your mouth? Maybe we need laws against phony, blasphemous faith healers.

All three of my children were born C-section by a doctor. I guess your neanderthal thinking would say they should have died instead of lived. Was your birth delivery performed by a doctor or a faith healer? Or did someone just flip over a rock?

God is the ultimate healer. But he uses man to assist in the healing. Maybe one day you will open eyes to that truth. Until then you are just going to continue to be dangerous to those you spread your lies to.

[franklin (franklin)]

Well this fool, as you insinuate me to be, and my loved ones will probably live longer doing God's will than you and yours. We will trust in God with prayer and not deny medical treatment if we need it.

Answer me this, where in the Bible, chapter and verse, does it say NOT to trust doctors?

If the good samaritan didn't stop and give that man in the ditch comfort and medical treatment he would have died. God works through men for healing. Physically and spiritually. Please give me scriptural proof that God hates physicians.

[franklin (franklin)]

It wasn't cancer. I was hit by a car when I was 8 years old. I was dying. A Chinese doctor at a Catholic hospital performed the surgery necessary to save my life. The nuns and my family prayed for me. And I recovered miraculously.

Without both the medical attention and the prayers I would not have lived. There is no way I would have recovered without surgery. I had a collapsed lung, ruptured spleen and intestines.

I am not catholic but I appreciate anyone who prays for me in the name of the Lord.

I now have three sons and a wonderful life. God is good!

I just wish you would have a better understanding about how prevalent the Holy Spirit is in the medical profession. Get out of that narrow minded box you're in. You seem to try to follow the letter of the law but fail to understand the spirit of the law.

By the way, keep in mind that at the time when the Bible was written, medical knowledge was almost non existent. There was no choice but to be healed by faith and prayers. Today we have both and people are living longer and that is God's will!

[franklin (franklin)]

Do you understand that at the time the Bible was written, there were no medical physicians available? Prayer was all that they had?

Do you understand that there are many born again Christians is the medical professions?

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

Mark 9:23 (KJV)
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


Mark , I receive your apology with sincerity ,and will pray for you.


michael markley

[franklin (franklin)]

Going to a physician for healing in the times of the bible was about the same as going to the desert for water. Not much hope there.

You have no proof that God does not approve of the medical profession.

So you believe that our soldiers in Iraq who are wounded should not receive medical treatment but just prayed over or just lay hands on. How do you heal by faith a gunshot wound in the stomach?

[franklin (franklin)]

All I know is that God won the debate. A man that can not defend his strict legalistic beliefs by answering simple questions believes in a false doctrine.

It's a shame his parents died of cancer. Sometimes when cancer is so advanced, doctors can not cure but just ease the suffering. Sometimes doctors are blamed when they are unable to cure.

But isn't it odd when a faith healer can't heal, it is the faith of the sick that is called into question. Nobody blames the so called faith healer.

[franklin (franklin)]

And there are just as many websites who expose the phoniness of so called faith healers.

So now that you are back please answer my question:


So you believe that our soldiers in Iraq who are wounded should not receive medical treatment but just prayed over or just lay hands on. How do you heal by faith a gunshot wound in the stomach?

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

Galatians 5:22 (KJV)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[franklin (franklin)]

You didn't answer my question.

[micah (micah)]

mark1124 and mr. markley, you two make me want to vomit. I cannot believe that you both have stooped so low. I have been reading your posts and i see a lot of bible verses being thrown at each other. OK WOW im impressed that you know scripture, (not really) do you not think that God would honestly be wounded to see two of his "followers" beating each other up with the very tool that he gave to set the world free? the thing that I see in the both of you is the the fact that you have no love. something that FA neglected also. "you will know them by thier fruit" if I was unsaved and read the threads posted here i would want nothing to do with God

[wheeler (wheeler)]

I love how you guys take scripture out of context and use it as a way to justify your feelings towards each other. I was born and raised in F.A. I left the church and christianity when I was 15. For over ten years I lived a life that would make any sinner jealous. I have come back to God and am sooo thankful for my salvation. I have learned a lot more about what it means to walk with Jesus in the past year than 15 at F.A. I have often defended my old church (F.A.) and myself and my family for going there and believing the things we did. It wasn't until I read this page did I see how twisted things were. I'm talking about you two who are using this site to slander each so horribly. I am ashamed to think that people who call themselves christians would act like this, ecspecialy in public. You are so good at quoting the bible. How can you miss what it means? You have put the fruit of your works on display here for all to see, and they stink with rot!!! Aren't we supposed to try to be as much like Jesus as we can be? I'm pretty sure He would not speak such slander, filth and lies about you or your apparent enemy here. Maybe next time you read your bible looking for verses that prove your case, you could take a few minutes to think about what it really means, not what you would like it to mean. I once read somewhere that Satans biggest accomplishment is twisting and perverting the words of God or something like that. That is what I see you doing.

[micah (micah)]

whats with the violin, this sounds interesting. I cant believe that a "brother in the lord" would send a stinking violin back. Hey mark1124 and markley, thanks for the laughs, i can see from this experience (and i have yet to see a post from mark1124 or whatever) that the true spirit of christ is alive and dwelling in you. Hey grow up and get a sense of humor, and whats with the motorcycle riding being less pleasing to God? you guys are nuts, in a good way though, you make me feel joy in my heart. (he,he,)

[micah (micah)]

mark, did you actually say that jesus did not die for me? or did I read that wrong.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Micah, are the new guys who I think they are? If so then 1124 is wrong. And surly he would not be so stupid as to say we are not saved by God's Grace.
I am not trying to beat up on anyone here but I will call 'em as I see 'em.

Mr. 1124, you sound like an angry child in most of your latest posts. Maybe you should re-read them as though they were written by someone else. I'm sure you are not like this in the real world because if you are I doubt you are taken seriously. I can see here you have been hurt and I'm sorry for that, but I think you should forgive and forget. If you cannot then you have a serious problem with pride.

Mr. Markley, are able to do this also? A simple yes will do for me.
I don't want to come off as someone who thinks he is anyone to answer to, I just hate the things I have been reading here. I think most christians would.

I think fighting over differences like these is detrimental to living a life following God's will and sharing His love and word with the rest of the world.

I would really like to see mr. Markley and Mark 1124 work through their differences, after all, were all on the same team, right?



Travis

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

thanks Micah
for you help too.
I,m gonna give it a rest...
Jesus is Lord
michael

[userfriendly (userfriendly)]

Wow! Its amazing how some of you will go to the extent of signing up as "someone else" to accuse thy brother; or maybe its not the case at all and thus the one accusing thee of doing so is indeed wrong. I'm not entirely sure which is the case, but I think you should hang the whole argument up and start acting like adults; last I knew, kids didn't take typing lessons till at least 6th grade.
peace, Jarvis

[micah (micah)]

where is mark 1124? i really want to hear from you. (please read my last post) where are you?



and to "jarvis"
art thou attacking me? Surely as i live my words will give testament to the fact that thine own self did not take instructions in the ways of typing untill the age of 15. Art thou saying that in thine own haste to judge others thou hast forgotten of thine own upbringing?

and to everyone else that says that they are still following the "faith message"

you only need one sewer line in your house that is the one going out.(have you heard that before?) The internet is Full of filth and pornography, why would any of you be so blind as to see that you are giving the devil direct access to your minds, have you never once seen a popup? that is why i dont use the internet. i refuse to give satan an open door into my living room. Some may try to say that they can turn the filth by changing the channel, I say that they are fooling themselves. it is only a matter of time before they become numb to the filth and garbage that is on there and fall away. that is why I say
ONE SEWER LINE ONLY. OUT PLEASE>

[userfriendly (userfriendly)]

brother Micah,
I hast not henceforth desired that the words coming forth from me, lead us into any temptation from our adversarry to cause strife and division among us; evenso thou shalt be correct in the statement that I hast not taken instructions unto the ways of typing until a later age.

On the sewer line; I fullheartedly agree with thy statement. While the internet can be indeed helpful, most christians think they can be overcomers on the internet but have only been deeply deceived by satan and led into temptation beyond their control; the internet is full of many many temptations and it is an open door to a lustful spirit.
Brothers and sisters, I wish not to attack anyone, for I know that I must surely remove the log from my own eye.
Wheeler, I am in aggreeance with you on your last sentence. We should do all we can to work out our differences and not hold any hard feelings towards oneanother.
peace, Jarvis

[micah (micah)]

what happened to the heresyhunter? i read a post from him last night and now its gone. And what about mark1124? im still waiting for your reply.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Brother Micah,
Art thou not casting stones while living in a dwelling made of a transparent, brittle substance? The last time I visited your place of residence there was only one sewer line, going out but there were FOUR coming in!!! Hast thou been living in the presence of these portholes to all that is wicked and evil for so long that thou art oblivios to their very existence? Thy brain hast surely been fried with the use of illegal substances.



James 5.1 Go now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

[ree110 (ree110)]

It would seem these boys were not taken out to the breezeway or broom closet quite often enough during the meetings for a good paddling.

[ree110 (ree110)]

...For would not the rod of correction
drive out such childish debating over
doctorinal issues that really will never
be resolved while we live in the flesh?
Show me two people who completely agree
on every single issue. It is simply
not possible.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Brother Jarvis,
If you need any help getting the splinters out of your eye after removing the log, I would be more than happy to be of assistance.


Lev. 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

[micah (micah)]

thuo art not all ganging up on me like thy forfathers gangst up on the beloved Hobie? I shall in my own uprighteoussness gang up upon myself to tell you that box mixes are surely the way to death itself and thy shalt only love penutbutter. for that is the only way to doing right, and if you shall seek a doctor for advice then surely you shall also be weak enough to clean a wound so as to avoid infectoin as opposed to trusting in your faith to clean and heal the wound for you.

And what is love? it is for those that do not have the faith to believe that the greatest of these is faith.

[micah (micah)]

have you not heard of hobart e freemans great preference in recipes from scratch?
and his liking of peanut butter?

"are you sure you want to eat that Joey?"
(Friends, season 2 episode 21)

[micah (micah)]

and to jarvis, after you remove your log, let me know maybey you can help me with mine, its really big and its causing trouble with my septic system

[userfriendly (userfriendly)]

Hey! Ree110. I've visited that blasted broom closet more often than Michael Jackson's been to a plastic surgeon

"wherever you go, there shall ye be"

[userfriendly (userfriendly)]

Yo! Mr Mark1124 , you never answered Micah on this statement.

quote by mark1124:
"I have repented for the activities of the past, in particular to what I have posted. I deeply regret what I wrote here. At least my repentence was genuine. Whether anyone wants to believe that or not, it doesn't matter. Jesus died for me on the cross; not any of you, especially Markley."

If you truly mean what you said in the last dozen words of that paragraph...........; How dare you speak so!! And you call yourself a christian?

I would really really like to hear back from you on this one. I sincerely hope (for you own good) that you did not mean that as is sounds.

Jarvis.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

HEY BROTHER JARVIS!
I think mr.mark maybe meant it was Jesus who died on the cross for him, not one of us, especially markley. That was how I read it anyways, because I doubt a christian (mark 1124)would be foolish enough to really believe Jesus did not die for someone on the cross, especially markley.

[userfriendly (userfriendly)]

Good thinkin' wheeler. I suspect you are correct. It is good to have other perspectives on stuff like this; keeps us all on our hooves.
I reckon Mark hasn't checked back since Micah 1st inquired about that statement otherwise he would've wanted to clearify that.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Because you agree with me, I know you are a man of great wisdom. May the world be blessed with your wonderful, beautiful, and truly expediant mind for a good while to come.
Perhaps one day we could spend some time sharing insight with one another. I feel you are someone who can actualy appreciate my profround intellect.


Proverbs 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul.

[wheeler (wheeler)]

brooooother miiiiicah,
You should be VERY CAREFUL!!! I am a christian,
and I happen take a liken to box mixes. Are you trying to say my soul is in jeopardy?
On second thought, maybe you are so wise, I just don't understand you and my tiny brain can't handle your wisdom.
Are you planning on starting a church any time soon? If so, let me know so I can attend and become a follower. Should I send you money now? Do you think we could use the name faith assembly?
If not, I think we should try to think of something as close to that as possible. Like maybe faith assembler or faith assmemblyer.
Or maybe we could abreviate the last word so it could look like it was either of those when in reality it's assembly. Yep, I think it could work. Please e-mail me if you want to do it.

[micah (micah)]

To wheeler, i actually have family members that attended Mike Greens church in bowling green ohio and they named their church "abiding by faith assembly". thats pretty sweet if you ask me. How about "abiding by hobart e freeman"? that would be cool.

and to Jesusthemightygod, I grew up in faith assembly and i got the distinct impression that anyone who attended any other church was on the fast track to hell. To this day I cannot figure out why. That is just one of the many reasons why I cannot defend their message and doctrine. I believe with my whole heart that they were right on some things, but from reading these posts on this site I see how exclusive this doctrine is. Its amazing to me that the only people that jesus openly talked bad about and did not like at all were the pharisees, the people that knew the law and fallowed it to the tee. every jot and tittle, as some would say.I have alot of questions, and the people that would be able to give me the answers are being silent. (aka mark1124) I can say that alot of good came out of the teachings, but I can also find alot of good that came out of Waco and david koresh if I look for it, and the bad in both cases seems to outweigh the good. it seems to me that that should not be right. I cannot imagine that the idea that I know it all and my doctrine is foolproof and if you dont see eye to eye with me then you are danmed, is the message that jesus lived, i dont see that at all.
I see him calling the people that knew it all a den of vipers. and then going out and having supper with the people in a bar. thats what I see, and if there is anyone who dissagrees with me, where are you? and why are you so silent? the message of faith assembly was sooooo exclusive, (as you can see on this website) and the people that think that they are still following the "faith message" are STILL so excusive, How can they think that they are becoming more like jesus? I think that they are becoming more like the pharisees, thinking that they know it all and yet knowing nothing about LOVE AND KINDNESS, the true message that jesus himself LIVED. If this is not really the case then find me the people that saw firsthand the results of fa. The children that grew up in the church? have they had to come to a new understanding of God? I know I have, because the one I was presented with was grossly perverted.]
anyone have the guts to respond?

on a lighter note,
Merry christmas to all!!!!

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Hey micah,
Marie started a new thread you may be interested in. It's about the effects of f.a. on the children. Check it out.


...and to all a good night!

[ree110 (ree110)]

Brothers,
I would definitely have to say Dr. Freeman was right on about the peanut butter. it rawks =)
Also, I read a quote by a great classic bible teacher(can't remember if it's Murray or Tozer) that said something to the effect: Our heads are full of knowledge but our feet stink. In other words, like it says in 1 Cor. 8:1, "knowledge puffs up(or makes arrogant), but love edifies(builds up)". This arrogant attitude is one I learned as well growing up at F.A. It took years for me to really see how disgusting it was, how bad it looks to others, and how much it grieves the Father. Legalism is something you don't see until you are free from it. I think you can have your personal convictions about issues but if it's not something black and white in the Bible, then we must not ever try to make it a rule that everyone else has to live by even if we feel strongly that God wants us to live by it. Everyone grows at different rates and each person has a different calling and functions as a different organ in the Body. How can we so ignorantly expect each person to live and act and talk exactly how we see as the right way? Wow, it really took a lot for the Lord to break me out of that mindset! But it's only God who can change hearts and each person has to be willing to change before He can come in and do what He wants in our lives. Freedom! That is what He so wants us to walk in!

[micah (micah)]

ree110, you hit the nail on the head.
saweet
thanx,

[wheeler (wheeler)]

I concur!

[doug (doug)]

RE: "YAHSHUA"
This is a teaching from the communities Apostle "Yoneq", otherwise known as Eugene Elbert Spriggs, that "YAHSHUA" (and David Alaxander in other places) in his above post is prosletising for.


For more info see "Twelve Tribes" on this web site.

<font color="ff0000">Execution of Justice
(Letter from Elbert concerning discipline and the seed of Abraham)
The reason Isaac was so willing to let his father sacrifice him was because he had
been raised his whole life knowing that he did not belong to himself, but belonged to his
father, and he was not living for himself, but living for his father. Hephzibah is coming to
understand that she is living for her father and belongs to him. The other day she was
having great difficulty being obedient to his command: not to suck her thumb in bed.
Elbert asked her to stick out her thumb because he was going to cut it off. He took a
huge pair of scissors and came toward her. She was terrified, but (after receiving her
discipline) she willingly stuck out her thumb to be cut off rather than let it cause her to
stumble in her obedience to her father. Elbert didn’t actually cut it off, but he wants
Hephzibah to understand that it is better to have your hand cut off now rather than later.
He wants her to be saved.
It is absolutely necessary to raise our children to know that they do not belong to
themselves, but to their father. How else can they believe that they don’t belong to
themselves except by training them as our Heavenly Father trains us to believe this. We
only “regain our true life” if we lose our false and criminal life. Whoever wants to save
Execution of Justice Page 6
1900.00.16-L01.DOC 020612.1326
his life will lose it, and whoever loses it for My sake shall find it. Abraham received back
the promise only after he had killed his only son the only son who could bring about the
promise. Abraham had faith to surrender his only heir. Abraham was tested. He endured
under trial to see whether he would obey (Heb 11:17-19; Gen 22:1; Jms 1:12). Abraham
obeyed by faith for he heard God say, “Abraham, take your son, your only son Isaac,
whom you love, and go sacrifice him.”
The error of “the local church” and many churches is in allowing doctrine to
substitute for obedience. We can do as they say, but not as they do, for they do not truly
discern the Body of Messiah though they have much wonderful doctrine. Without seeing
Gen 18:19, the Body of Messiah doesn’t make sense.</font>
Note: Elbert is not the little girls father but is the apostle of the community. I don't see a close resemblance to his lying to a little girl and teaching the faith that Abraham had in Isaac.

David responded on Dec 21
<font color="0000ff">I don't know anything about the above...but I DO KNOW that the truth that sets men free can be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)
It is for Christians Only. Truth will always be attacked. Those who are wise will not be put off by such things. The fact is, anyone who wants to see the fruit of our lives can visit us at anytime; and see that our children are some of the most wonderful on the whole earth. As the Word says, "wisdom is justified by her children". Sincerely, david</font>

My reply Dec 22
David
<font color="0000ff">I don't know anything about the above…</font>
Are you saying you don't know if Spriggs taught that and if it is one of the communities teachings or you don't know if there is anything wrong with what was alleged in the teaching CD that Jacob took from the community?


"Yahshua"
Was your apostle speaking from the holy spirit when he threatened with a large pair of scissors to cut off the terrified little girls thumb and did lying to her to scare her teach her the faith of Isaac with Abraham? Is that why Isaac trusted his father? Because someone terrified him with a lie?

[micah (micah)]

what happened to the fa crowd? i thought this was supposed to be about hobart and his following not this yoneq and his crazy ideas.

[duncan (duncan)]

Hello all! I just stumbled across this site yesterday while conducting a search for Dr. Freeman. Before I begin my story, I am compelled to say something regarding the posts over the past few months. I am frightened by the careless use of the name of Jesus by some of the posters. His name is higher than any other name and demands respect and honor. Be careful what you say in His name. A lot of the above discussions only served to bring honor to the devil. Unfortunately, there are some really messed up folks out there.

With that being said, let me briefly tell you about my story. I was one of those kids that grew up in F.A. My parents were introduced to Dr. Freeman in the very early 70's in Alabama. He and June have been in our house numerous times, and we have been to their house many times. We moved to Indiana in 1978 to attend church. That is the same year I started 1st grade. I can remember as a young child that there was a wonderful feeling in our fellowship. My dad would preach on Sunday mornings every few months, and I always wanted to preach too. I would even ask Bruce Kinsey if I could preach (he always scheduled the Sunday morning preachers.) As I got older, I was subjected to many of the same things other F.A. kids were at school. I had to leave the room for Christmas parties (not birthdays - my family always celebrated birthdays), puppet shows, movies, etc. It was difficult, but I survived. Unfortunately, many of my old friends from those days couldn't handle things when they turned 18. Many got pregnant (or got someone pregnant), many got into drugs, some got their driver's licenses taken away for drunk driving. It seemed to me as I got older that many parents were trying to take their kids OUT of the world, rather than teaching them not to be OF the world.

As my spiritual maturity has grown over the years, I now understand the solid foundation I received in the Word (even though it was hard for an 8 year old to sit through a 2-hour sermon). I have gone back and listened to many of Dr. Freeman's tapes as an adult and can se a distinct difference between the early and mid-70's vs. the 80's. In the 70's, the church was being equipped to go out and minister. In the 80's you were looked down upon if you moved away. People thought you were going to hell. I agree with some of the others that Dr. Freeman changed over the years and introduced a lot of legalism I remember as an elementary student having to throw away my running shoes because Dr. Freeman said that the homosexuals were wearing them. The doctrine was great, but the daily applications went terribly wrong. I have to lay much of the blame on the members that took everything that came out of his mouth as pure gospel, rather than his interpretations. As such, the peer pressure from within became the driving force behind much of the problem

As was my family's intent from the start, we moved back to Alabama in 1986. My personal life strayed from God to some degree while I was in college. However, after I got married and had children of my own, I have been able to build on a solid foundation and have been able to discern much of the good I received from the bad. Although, I have had some difficult times and had many questions, God has kept me close to him. I have been able to avoid the bitterness that has taken hold of many of my old friends.

I thank God for my salvation and for the teachings I have had the priviledge of sitting under. I continue to be interested in what has happened to many of the folks I used to know. If you would like to discuss anything further with me, please feel free to continue this discussion.

God Bless.

[duncan (duncan)]

It is very unfortunate that what started out as a meaningful discussion regarding our experiences with Dr. Freeman and Faith Assembly has done more to bring glory to the devil than to Jesus. I have never heard of any of the posters on this site, but I can tell you that this is not the way people acted when I was a youth at Faith Assembly 20 years ago. This division is straight out of the pit and has sent all the legitimate posters running. It is unfortunate that only mindless drivel remains. If there is anyone else out there that feels this way or would like to get back to the original purpose of this board, feel free to respond. Thanks and have a blessed day!

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Titus 3:10-11 “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”

2 John 1:9-11, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”

2 Peter 2:1-3 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

For unto us a Child is born unto us a Son is given
The government shall be upon His shoulders
His name shall be Wonderful Consoler
The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father
“My Jesus”

I love Kenneth Copeland with all my Heart!
May the Lord Jesus Greatly bless Him

Michael Markley

[duncan (duncan)]

Is there anyone out there besides Frick and Frack?? I have a 5 year old and a 3 year old, and this board sounds like my living room every night. If everyone else has abandoned this ship, then I will as well. I am really not being edified by this.

Thanks to all, and have a blessed day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Goodbye - I can't take it anymore!

Before I leave, there is one question to ponder regarding the utter heresy of JDS - If Jesus became sin, then who died for Jesus??

Due to the nature of this thread, I do not plan on posting again. If someone would like to discuss the "old days," I would be happy to do so. Just let me know.

[duncan (duncan)]

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, by I just read one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen and had to respond. It is in regards to the KJV and the statement that we are attacking the sovereignty of God by questioning it, because it is 400 years old. I think that is quite possibly the most ridiculus comment on this board. The inspired, or "God-breathed" scriptures were the original Hebrew in the OT and the Greek in the NT, which are thousands of years old. I agree that the KJV is an excellent translation, but it fails to properly translate many words. Examples include: names (there is no James in the Bible, the translators were honoring the King of England by using that name), there is no Jehovah in the Bible (that is a combination of Yahweh, or Yahveh, and Adonai), and hell (as referenced above regarding leaving "my soul in hell") is really Sheol, or the place of departed spirits.

As for the rest of the garbage I have read, I don't believe it even merits a response.

[micah (micah)]

it warms my heart to see you two going at it again! I thought you had given up on attacking each other, but no you are steadfast and strong. Keep up the good work, as long as you are busy fighting each other you give satan two less people to worry about, if you know what I mean. I am glad to know that when I feel imature as a christian I have a place to go to make me feel better! You guys are the christian Jerry Springer show!

Hey rock on and rock out!!

[duncan (duncan)]

Hey, Micah! It's great to "see" you. Actually, it is nice to hear from anyone other than the two kids on this board. By the way, I thought you had a good post back in December. As my previous posts stated, I grew up at FA, as well. Who knows, we may have been friends. Just to give you a time frame, I will be 33 next month, and was at FA until 1986.

As for carrying on conversations with people on this board, I've decided that I will respond only to posts that have legitimate comments/questions and ones that edify.

Thanks again, and have a great day.

[duncan (duncan)]

Mr. Mighty,
I am responding to your previous post. To answer your questions, I'll start with the simple answers first. I am not currently a member of Faith Assembly. My family moved away in 1986 (I was 14.) As for Mark1124, I have never heard his name as mentioned above (Mark Scaliotti). I have not kept up, nor do I know any of the current leadership at the current F.A.

Now for the more difficult answers. I do not classify Dr. Freeman as a murderer. I do believe that some of his teachings were misguided interpretations. As I stated before, I think the people who followed him are as much to blame. There was a great deal of peer pressure when I was there. I agree that many people died (the figure of 100 is the number most people used). I think their view of doctors was faulty.

For my own life, I have a hard time reconciling the Bible's teachings with never going to a doctor. Since becoming an adult, I do have regular doctor visits. I put my faith in Jesus and not in doctors, but I have no problem going to a doctor for a sinus infection or an ingrown toenail. That doesn't mean that I don't still pray for my healing, however.

Hopefully, all this makes sense. I know that I have probably opened myself up to criticism from the hard-core FA folks, but it doesn't bother me. I am very secure in my faith.

Thanks for post.

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Jesus Said there would be many False Teachers ………..

One of them is Mr. Markley's hero...Copeland.

Praise the Lord for Hobart Freeman. I love him because his teaching has set me free from the false teaching of Kenneth Copeland. His teaching is right in line with the word of God. I have been set free because of God's anointed servant.

I am thankful to have the tapes and that they are going out still so that more people can get free from the traditions of men.

I can't say the same for Markley's hero.

[duncan (duncan)]

The faith that I have in Jesus is nothing of my own doing. I was blessed with Godly parents and was blessed to sit under the strong meat of the word as a child. As I've said before, I may not have understood all the deep theology as a child, but my spirit absorbed it. As a result, things seem to come easier to me now when studying God's Word.

I think another benefit from sitting under the teaching at FA as a child is that I was too young to really get caught up in all the legalism that took over in the later part of Dr. Freeman's ministry. By the time I became an adult, I had the firm foundation I needed to interpret the Word myself. I didn't need someone to "tell" me what to do.

All in all, God has truly blessed me more than I deserve. I owe it all to Him!

[duncan (duncan)]

Mighty,

I can't go as far as you on your comments regarding Dr. Freeman. I have heard many people say things that Dr. Freeman supposedly said. I cannot remember hearing any of those statements, and as such, am unable to comment one way or another. However, just because I do not agree with some of his teachings and interpretations does not mean that I discount everything he said.

In fact, I will occasionally borrow a tape or two from my parents to listen in my car on the way to work. I am currently listening to the series on Biblical Theology. As far as the doctrine goes, I have agreed with everything that I've heard. He even made some statements that surprised me, such as "I lump all denominations in one bucket, but there are many saved people out in these churches." He has also referenced several authors, both secular and non-secular. The date of this series was in 1973 (I was one at the time).

On another note, why is it that when your post first appeared, it was under the Mighty name, but when I updated it, it was then showing under Michael Markley? Why the multiple names?

Thanks.

[micah (micah)]

hey there duncan, I dont know who you are, I am 26 now and I stayed in FA (because of my parents) untill the end when steve handed the leadership over to malcom and he moved and started his own church. I (as you) had to come to a new understanding of God after the things that I saw and heard, I have some posts on this site where I am being sarcastic and such because it drives me nuts to see people still arguing and rehashing old stupid trivial things that gave FA a bad name and ultimately brought it down. I am interested to know more about you, your story and such, I am amazed at the number of people from my generation and on that have totly lost site of God, it can be depressing sometimes. I often ask myself why, what good ever came out of FA? two guys going round and round about JDS heresy and wars and praying and how you should pray and defending a man....

a man who was no greater than me???
what is up with that?

[duncan (duncan)]

Thanks for one of the better posts in some time. Your family stayed around longer than mine. When we moved, we weren't technically leaving the church. We were just going back to the state where my parents were from. As such, we went to a satellite church for a while that was led by Jim Oswalt (remember him??). As things continued to evolve, my parents decided to look elsewhere for a church and were never satisfied with what they found.

Speaking of Jim Oswalt, he still lives in Alabama and divorced his wife, Ruth Ann, back in 1998, and married a lady that was going to his church. It was a sad situation. I have recently heard that he is trying to get back into the ministry at a Church of God in Birmingham. I guess that whole "husband of one wife" qualification for a minister doesn't mean anything to him.

Thanks again for the intelligent post! I look forward to continued dialogue.

[duncan (duncan)]

Mr. Fivefalseprophecy,

If people like me cared?? I was barely a teenager when I left, and have never been to an FA meeting since. Take care with your tone and choose your words carefully. I can't and won't be drawn into a discussion such as this.

[duncan (duncan)]

Fivefold,
You are correct. I should have never stooped to the level of name calling. It is beneath me and not very Christian-like. I apologize.

In addition, I am not here to defend FA or Dr. Freeman. I live my life and raise my family, as best I can, based upon the Word of God. One day, I will have to stand before an almighty God and give an account for my life and the life of my family. As heads of their households, the fathers of children who died will also have to give an account before the throne. We will be without excuse, regardless of what some teacher told to do or not to do. No one was forced to do anything against their will. God will only judge us on our actions.

[micah (micah)]

question, how do you "recieve" a spirit? Ive been away from the ole jargin for quite some times and some things sound more silly to me than sense making. anyway that being said I am glad to see that the few days ive been away from the site have been productive. alots been said and I am amazed as usual. If ive said it once ive said it a thousand times you guys make me laugh!! Its good to see that some of Gods children are fighting and some are loving, im a lover not a hater.
I am adult enough to understand what went on in FA, even though I was a child at the time. And I dont need to blame hobart and his teachings for people dying and such, If you take a step back and look at the situation you CANNOT say that those who foolishly shunned doctors and such did not do so of their own free will. I understand what personal responsibility means, for those of you that dont it means that only I am to blame for who I listen to and what I do, as tragic as my actions may be i and only I am to blame. If I follow a david coresh or a hobart freeman I cannot lay blame at their feet for the mess I make of my or my childrens lives. Hobart will have to answer to God about his responsibility as to what he taught for himself. I dont care about that I care about me. Enough said. I really liked what somebody said about being decieved by such a strong spirit and I was humored at the fearful tone. Whats to be scared of? More babies dying? I think your fighting the wrong battle,
feel free to post all agreeance and disses.
I will recieve all your "spirits" even if they are fearfull and lying and antagonizing and wicked and name-calling and whatever else, Im not afraid!!
its all good.
peace

[duncan (duncan)]

Micah, I agree with your assessment of the situation. I am enjoying the discussion. As an added bonus, thanks to all the quotes, I'm getting the opportunity to brush up on scripture verses. In fact, I think I'll pass along one of my favorites:

Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

I especially like that last part about sowing discord amoung the bretheren!!

As a rebuttal to Fivefold, the difference with Dr. Freeman and Jim Jones is that once people were on the commune in Ghana, they were not allowed to leave and were forced to drink the poison or get shot. No one was forced to go to FA and no one was forced to stay away from doctors. I know people who went to doctors and I know people who left the church. The problem with society today, including Christians, is that no one is willing to take responsibility for their own actions. They always want to "pass the buck." Go back and read I Kings 18. This is the account of Elijah praying to stop rain. When he went to see King Ahab, Ahab asked if he was the trouble-maker of Israel. Elijah told Ahab that he, as king, was responsible for everything, not Elijah. It's time for people to stop the blame game, like Adam saying it was Eve's fault, and Eve saying it was the serpent's fault.

On another note, Mighty/Michael, you never answered my question a few posts back regarding the multiple name postings. I know Mark1124 answered for you, but I'm curious. I hope your not trying to lie to us to make us think that these are separate people. Mark1124 states that you are also Fivefold. I don't know that, but I do know about the others. Please don't take this question as an attack on you. I'm just curious as to the reason.

Thanks!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Let me correct one of your comments. I did not say people at FA could go to doctors with relative ease. I stated that I know people who went to doctors. So to say that I was "intellectually dishonest" is ridiculous. Secondly, I had an family member die as a result of refusing medical treatment that could have helped, so I believe I am a little closer to this subject than you. Was I upset that it happened? YES! Do I wish I could have done something for her? YES! However, being bitter will not gain me a thing, except an ulcer (and then I would have to go see the doctor myself!)

As I've said repeatedly (and for your benefit, I will say it yet again), I am NOT defending Dr. Freeman. On the other hand, I will not speak evil of him. I am not going to speak evil of anyone. I do not agree with you on this issue, but I am not going to speak against you, either. That is my personality, and I can not be shaken.

Thanks again for the interesting and enjoyable discussion!

[duncan (duncan)]

Mark,
Thanks for the continued encouragement. However, I've dealt with many different folks from different walks of life, and my faith in Christ is not shaken. I have another family member that is bitter because of the way they were treated when they left FA, so I've heard it all.

The older I get, the more grounded in the Word of God I become. As long as I stick to His Word and not try to read anything into to it that isn't there, I will be fine.

Thanks again!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Would you mind posting under the Mr. Mighty name? You were a lot nicer to me when you were that poster.

Thanks again!

[micah (micah)]

Heres the truth mr. fivefold> (btw. we can all see your IP address as being 4.235.241.40 so we know that you are using different names, theres a way to fix that you know) I need to clarify my statement from last night for some people (or person) that cannot read with understanding. I look at it this way, I think that hobart is responsible for having a pastoral position in which he used to lead people down the wrong path in some areas. The reason I say some is because he had the old testament prophets down, they still use his books in some seminaries. Now I am grown up enough to recognize that people are full of good and bad, for example, I dont think that bill clinton was the best president weve ever had but I will say that his signing of the "protection of marrige bill and his welfare reform bill was extremely good. I give him points for that. The ever so simple point that I am making is that even people doing scandalous things can do good at the same time. CAN, being the key word, (notice I did not say always) so question number one:
was everything hobart taught wrong and bad? this is a yes or no question, yes it was all bad or no it was not. OK i say no and one of the only reasons I say no is because he was a genuis on the OT. can anyone at least give him that? So I think I have my very simple and easy to understand fact brought home, that being that not EVERYTHING he taught was wrong.

OK now for the second question:
where in my last post did I say that he is not in any way responsible for the 100 deaths?
its like this, I believe that as a pastor that taught misleading doctrine God will hold him accountable, as I said quote:

Hobart will have to answer to God about his responsibility as to what he taught for himself.

My whole point of the whole post was that I (key word being I) dont blame him for people believing and following what he said. I do believe that he he will be held accountable for what he said, and those who followed him will be held responsible for who they followed. Its a two sided coin, and both parties will be held acountable. that is why I dont lay all the blame at his feet, even though sometimes I feel like I want to. But after all wasnt he the one that neglected to teach love and grace? So how can I learn that? And who is the judge? Me? Can I damn him to hell? Thank god thats not my job, its his and I will gladly let him do what is right, and that is why I dont care, I care about me, looking out for the attitude of my heart. That is my only concern, because on judgement day I cannot look God in the face and say "well he made me do it"

[duncan (duncan)]

So, Mark,

How's the weather where you are? It's a little chilly here, but the sun has been out all day. It's been beautiful for a couple of days. Hopefully, God will bless us with good weather on Saturday, because I am planning to enjoy His creation by playing golf. It's a great way to relax after a week of posting on this nutty board!

I hope you have a great day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Micah,
Welcome back! I thought you left me hanging! By the way, I don't receive your spirit of questioning IP addresses.

Have a great evening!

[micah (micah)]

I dont receive your spirit of not recieving spirits there duncan, dont you know Matthew 12:43 (KJV)
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places,
seeking rest, and findeth none.

Ya i went there. I dont even know how this applies but I will gladly use it way out of context just to have the chance to throw a scipture at you.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Much love,
micah

[duncan (duncan)]

I was told that when Mary Smith was sick, she refused medical treatment and was forced to lie in the middle of her driveway for three days. Finally, ants came and carried her off, and she was literally drug into the anthill and eaten. If only Bruce Kinsey hadn't wanted to go hunting!

[micah (micah)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[micah (micah)]

hey mark how do you feel about people trying to make money off of people that have died? Im not trying to come down on you or anything, (im a lover not a hater) I was just a bit curious. I know of someone right now that is compiling songs from two former members of faith assembly and is planning to have the compilation for sale. I dont see what kind of market he will have as far as sales go but for me its a question of character.
I dont have a preconcieved idea about the sale of hobarts tapes and such, as to wether its right or wrong, I can come up with arguements for both sides. I was just wondering about your opinion.

[micah (micah)]

OK thats a reasonable answer, I guess if I had a problem with that then I would have a bigger problem with Zondervan and other publishing houses that make copies of the bible, so i see your point. its all about the benjamins eh? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

thanks for your reply

[duncan (duncan)]

Good morning! It's another beautiful day in the neighborhood, and my two favorite comedians are already in full swing. I would like to make an offer to act as your agent and take this show on the road. People would pay big bucks to see this Abbott and Costello routine!

And now, some friendly advice:

Mark, you just have to let it go. Markely had gone back to the tent and the campfire was just about out. Then, you got up this morning and threw another log on the fire. It seems that you are enjoying this exchange as much as he is. He has made a few good points, and he's also made some ridiculous points. Respond to the legitimate points, and ignore the "I need to go take my lithium" points.
--------------------------------------------------
Five,
if you will go back and read my previous posts, you will find that I never said anything about a sister. It was my grandmother, and she was a grown woman. We asked her if we could take her to the doctor, and she said no. We didn't like it, but we respect her decision to live her life as she pleases. You may not understand it, and I can't explain it.
--------------------------------------------------

I had forgotten the good ol' days when everything was a spirit. That brings back fond memories of my childhood. Now that I've grown up, here's what I've learned:

1) Everything that doesn't go your way is NOT a spirit. Sometimes people say or do stupid things and bring it on themselves.
2) I have no problem eating devil's food cake or using a Red Devil vacuum cleaner, because the devil does not actually live in the cake or the vacuum.
3) A Christian can NOT be possessed by a demon. If the person is a true Christian, then he has the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Light and darkness cannot occupy the same space. A Christian can be oppressed and have to battle the enemy's onslaughts.
4) It's OK for women to wear pants, if they maintain a feminine look.
5) Something happened to Mr. Trinity (Markely/Mighty/Fivefold) over the last two years that got him fired up against Dr. Freeman. In the second post on this board two years ago, he said that he studied Dr. Freeman's teachings and that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
6) I can wear running shoes with 3 stripes and not be gay.
7) Every man is fallible. Even the disciple Peter had to be rebuked by both Jesus and by Paul for saying and doing the wrong thing. I don't discount his Epistles, though.
8) I don't believe everything I hear on a chat board.
9) There are many doctors who are Christians.
10) I still don't like pimento cheese.

Enjoy the day!!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Didn't you already cover the info in that last post on a previous post? I went back and looked, but I think the post was deleted? Are we seeing reruns now?

As for my response, please see my initial response posted on Feb 17 at 6:52.

It's a beautiful day, isn't it?!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Thanks for a wonderful piece of investigative reporting. That brought back memories of my
childhood, because I remember most of those stories and the mood of the church at the time.
It's a sad time when people can get so caught up in something and take it to the extreme. I
actually knew the Mudds and remember a church picnic at their house. I also remember seeing their little
girl's eye tumor. If my memory is correct, I think that they had problems with or lost another
child. It is all very sad. It just goes to show you how people are when they're not grounded in the word.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,

Why the fixation on Dr. Freeman? He's dead. He can no longer pressure people. Those who died are
dead, and there is nothing we can do to bring them back. The only thing we can worry about is
not falling into temptation ourselves. Bitterness and animosity achieves nothing.

Another thing that I've been reminded of since visiting this board is the term five-fold minister.
Based on my studies and interpretations, there is no such thing. The bible states in Ephesians that
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
There is no indication that one person can be all five. In fact, I don't believe there have been
any apostles since John died in the late first century. The only office that is combined in that
verse is pastors and teachers.

Just an observation.

[micah (micah)]

Im hearing the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head

[micah (micah)]

I dont think that duncans question was about wether or not the five-fold offices are still operational, just if one person can have all 5 at the same time.
Its an interesting question for me 2. Another term Ive heard my whole life and not sure of its meaning. Ill be sure to ask some people that have gone there, (I happen to run into quite a few of them, enough said) and try to post what they say.
Hmmmmm

Oh and BTW, i cannot speak for duncan but I will NOT be joining paypal, if I want to hear hobie I can go to my moms basesment and dig out about a thousand unedited tapes complete with babies crying and people coughing and everything, but no thanks, I already know what he said. And I can find the food I need to stay close to God elsewhere, dont have to look back to walk forward!

[micah (micah)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[duncan (duncan)]

Mark,
I'm disappointed in your response to Micah. I had just come to believe that you were
above some of the stuff going on here, but that comment was very disrespectful and immature (it's
ironic that you used the word mature in your response to him.) I knew (and still know) many who
sat under the teaching at FA that are still immature Christians. Just because you listen
doesn't mean that you do. I do not sit under charasmatic teaching today (that doesn't mean I
discount it, though) and I would stake up my theology with anyone I knew from FA.

The tone of your response goes back to what was wrong at FA when I was there as a kid. The problem
was that most everyone seemed to have a "holier than thou" attitude. The belief was that FA was
the only church in the world that was teaching the word. Everyone else was lost in some terrible
heresy. It is this hubris that led to the downfall of the church. Look back at the New Testament. Paul wrote to many different churches. There wasn't just one that had the whole truth.

I'm not trying to come down on you, but I just wanted to share my thoughts.

Micah, I think my mom may have you beat. Not only does she have all the original tapes, we have the radio messages, as well!

Have a blessed day.

[micah (micah)]

ya i hear ya duncan, just for kicks I asked my pastor about the jds thing, figuring that with a masters in doctrine and theology he may know something. He said that he had never even heard of it before he came into contact with former fa people. I just thought that was funny, I can remember as a kid hearing about the jds heresy all the time and yet it isnt even being discussed in seminaries. I think some people like to make mountains out of molehills. I can have a relationship and love someone without seeing eye to eye on every little thing, as long as we serve the same master, iz all good. I get a kick out of these guys though, it would be sad if it wasnt so dang funny! I like what youve been saying on these last couple of posts, I think we have a very similar take on things. You may think im a kook if you read some of my early posts, I have a tendancy to be slightly sarcastic at times!! But being in this area, (near the ole fa) I happen to know alot of really awesome people that are former fa'ers like myself(the fa part,not the awesome part) and there are some that have been able to find the healing they needed and take the good and leave the bad. I for a long time struggled to think that any good at all came out of it but I can at least look at people like jerry ervin and a handfull of others and see god being totaly real in a way that I never seen before. I guess its the ending thats important, the taking of a bad situation and turning it around for good, not letting satan keep kicking ya in the groin http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

So youre in alabama? hows the weather down there?
its freezin nuts up here!! If all goes well it will be our last winter here, cant take the cold, had enoughhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

[duncan (duncan)]

Micah,
Thanks for the post. The weather here is not bad. it's going to hit 70 today.

As for Jerry Ervin, I'm glad that he was able to get his life straightened out after some going a
little crazy for awhile. As an interesting aside about myself, I dated Jerry Ervin's daughter,
Rebekah for a couple of years. Unfortunately, living about 600 miles away doesn't work well on
relationships!

As you said, it sounds like you and I think a lot alike. You read my mind about the whole JDS mess.
The way things were presented to us (especially as kids), you thought everyone was in deep heresy.
Examples include JDS, Oneness Doctrine, people who deny the deity of Christ, Submitted Body, etc, etc.
The vast majority of people have never heard of these fringe nutcases. I was surprised, as an adult
that there are several "denominations" (another FA bad word) that actually believe what the Bible says.
If you were to ask 1000 people if they've heard of "Submitted Body", I bet not a single person would!
(Unless they went to FA, then 90% would would have heard.)

Thanks for the continued posts. It looks like sanity is slowing coming back to this board!

Have a blessed day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Mark,
Thanks for stoking the fire again with the jab to Fivefold. We haven't heard from him in several
days, but now I anxiously await his return jab to you. Just let it go with him. I doesn't suit you.

On another note - since prophecy is included as one of the "five fold" ministries, doesn't that
make Fivefold's name redundant? Shouldn't it be Fourfold prophecy instead? Just a thought.

Have a great day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Please remember that I apologized for the name calling a week or so back, and have not done it
since. As such, I have no problem telling someone else to lay off the jabs.

As for the FiveFold comment this morning, it was in no way a jab at you. Rather, it was a slightly humorous
observation that prophesy is already one of the fivefold ministries, so prophecy would be implied
if your handle was just Fivefold.

As for agreeing with Mark's comment, I'm never offended if you put your $.02 in the conversation.
I may not agree with everything you say, or the manner in which you sometimes say it, but you have
had some relevant comments to add to the discussion.

Thanks for the continued dialogue.

[duncan (duncan)]

I understand Micah's thoughts about this board. You guys are cracking me up with this routine.
Here's what it sounds like to Micah and me - "Mom, he's looking at me." "But Mom, he was
touching me first!" "Mom, he won't play with me!" "Mommy, he told me he wasn't my friend."
"Mom, he just stepped on my foot." "Well he called me names." "Yeah, but My dad can beat up Your dad!"
"Can not" "Can too" "Can not" "Can too!" "Can not" "Can too" "Can not" "Can too!"

Is this what we've been reduced to as Christians? As long as we bicker, Satan doesn't have to worry
about us sharing our faith with others. Unfortunately, we're already sharing our faith with
others, and it is not very pretty.

The good thing is that it doesn't look like anyone looks at this board but Micah and me. And
since we are pretty grounded, I don't think we can be swayed one way or the other. We are,
however, enjoying the show. In fact, I need to go get some more popcorn!

Good day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Good morning!
Now that everyone has decided to play nice and share their toys, I thought I would bring the discussion
back to something deeper. When I was kid at FA, I can remember people having demons cast out of them.
That is something that sticks in your mind (like many other things at FA.)
Now that I'm am older (and supposedly wiser), I have thought about this a great deal. Here's my
question - Can a Christian be possessed by a demon?

Based on my study, I would have to say "No." My reason is that when a person is saved, the Holy
Spirit then dwells within that person. Light and darkness can't occupy the same space and neither
can good and evil. Based on this, I believe demons can only come against us to oppress us but
not actually enter our bodies.

Does this make any since to anyone? Thanks.

[duncan (duncan)]

Wow! I see we have another "visitor." Welcome back, Michael/FormerFA/Fivefold/Mighty. I'm not sure why you wanted to re-post my comment, but not post my apology given less than an hour later. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Also, let me say that I do not hate you. I don't even know you. It's obvious to me that you, or
someone you love, was deeply hurt by the teachings at FA. There are many others, including me,
that are in the same boat (except maybe Mark1124). I am sorry for the hurt. I hope you
have found a church since then that is meeting your spiritual needs.
Since you're dying to get someone to admit it,
I will go ahead and concede that Dr. Freeman's interpretations on divine healing led to the deaths
of many people (probably more than 100). As a pastor, he will have to answer before God. The
parents of those children will have to answer to God, as well.

I'm sorry if you think I'm teaming up with Mark against you. That is not what I am doing. If FA
is on the same path that it was when my family left, then I believe they are leading people astray.
Since I no longer know anyone there, I am unable to speak with any authority on that subject.

Thanks for keeping my day from being dull and uneventful.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Thanks for the response. You're correct. I could be anyone. However, if you were at FA
during the early 80's, chances are that you heard my dad preach on numerous occasions, and you probably
also saw me play the guitar at church.

Also, you are very perseptive in regards to me getting a kick out of the discussions. I do get a
kick out of it. Not because of the subject matter, because I do think that the things that happened
there were a major tragedy. But I do find you guys amusing when you go back and forth. As
such, I have made some sarcastic remarks in an attempt to illustrate a point.
I guess that there is a history between you two that the rest of us are not privy. To us, it seems that
you two enjoy duking it out. Obviously, neither one of you can change the other's mind, so it looks
like a waste of time to keep going at it.

Thanks!

[duncan (duncan)]

Mark -
you're exactly right. Doctors have caused thousands of deaths through incompetence or mistakes.

Five -
You know, Five, that was probably the most rational post I have seen you make on this board
and I agree with the majority of what you said.

There are some demonic forces in medical science, but there are also demonic forces in bankers,
real estate agents, lawyers, grocery stores, car dealerships, etc, etc. Does that mean that I stop
going to those places, No. That's why we must develop a discerning spirit. I mentioned a few posts
back that I know Christian doctors. I have a friend who is having a brain tumor removed
on Monday (Please pray for him).
After he met with the doctor this week, the surgeon asked if he could pray for him.
The surgeon prayed for his healing and prayed for wisdom and guidance. Why is it so hard for some
to believe that God can gift people to work on the human body the same as some are gifted with minds
that are good in math or musical talent?

My grandmother refused to go to the doctor to get glasses, yet she would read her Bible with a magnifying
glass. What's the difference?? Why was it OK to use the tweezers to remove a splinter from your finger,
but you couldn't let a doctor set a broken bone? I agree that love was not something that was emphasized.

As for sitting next to me - as you faced the pulpit, there were some yellow plastic seats on about
the first five or ten rows of the right side. We would sit on about the third or fourth row.
I would play my guitar(which I still have) and my brother played the organ.

Thanks to everyone for their continued posts.

[duncan (duncan)]

Well put.

[micah (micah)]

hey yall, im back. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif I just had an awesome experience this last weekend. I took a band to michigan and we played at a youth retreat, there were about 75 kids there total and all the kids were encouraged to bring one unsaved friend with them. Not all of them did but it was so cool to have unsaved people see the love of christ and experience worship and just basicaly be exposed to God in a real way. 14 kids accepted christ on sat. night. I think there was a small party in heaven goin on!! It reminded me of the drastic difference of the way I grew up, as far as not being unequally yoked and all that other stuff, its amazing for me to think that that could never have happened to me because I was not allowed to have unchristian friends. Thats not even jesus, if you look at his life and who he had compassion for it was always the sinners and he even went so far as to call the people that tried to follow the law to every last little degree a den of vipers! If those kids would have been raised like me there would be 14 less children of God this week. Anyone else find that heartbreaking? I understand the whole in and not of the world, but god has not called us to be secluded, he has called us to be salt and light and thats what these kids are doing and they are getting results !! thats what counts. Its all about the souls. Anyways just wanted to share my joy!
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Hello Micah,
Long time no see! I can't believe mark said markley is gay! Or maybe it was the other way around. Jk. I probably don't need to go to the effort to give them a reason to get started but I'm in need of a good laugh. I wonder if Satan's laughing as he reads their posts.
When will you two haters see that it DOESN'T FREAKIN' MATTER whos right or wrong about the details if you can't handle the basics. Oh look, your causing me to stumble!

Laters.

[duncan (duncan)]

Welcome back, Micah!
That's great news. I understand exactly what you mean. I wasn't allowed to socialize with kids at
school, either. I share in your joy, because if we don't reach people while they are young, the
chances of reaching them dramatically decrease.

Welcome, Wheeler. I have not had the pleasure of having any dialogue with you, but based on you're
posts from late last year, it looks like you have a pretty good head on your shoulders. I'm glad to
see some fresh activity on this board!

Finally, a few posts ago, I mentioned my good friend (only 32) who was having a brain tumor removed. As
an update, I would like to say that it was removed yesterday, and everything went well. We had
a small prayer meeting after church Sunday night at someones house, and it was beautiful. Also, before
the surgeon operated on him, he prayed with him to ask God's blessings and prayed for wisdom in
removing the tumor. To me, the fact that a man has been given enough wisdom by God to cut a hole
in someone's skull and cut out a mass on his brain stem is a miracle.

Have a great day!

[micah (micah)]

good ta hear duncan, I am glad to hear about your friend, my dad died of a brain tumor when I was about three and its amazing how far the technoligy has come since then. At that time even just plain old open-brain surgery was still experimental. Its amazing how things have changed eh? I will continue to keep him in my prayers for a speedy and complete recovery,

keep on truckinhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Thanks for the kind words, and I accept your apology. I never took anything personal, but I appreciate
your attitude. I will not dredge up any of the past posts unless you mention them first.

Here's a nice passage from I John 4: (NKJV)
"20 If someone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love
his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also."

Have a great day!

[wheeler (wheeler)]

Five, I also accept your apology and I also would like to apolojize for yelling and stuff.
Hello yourself Duncan. Yes I do have a head on my shoulders and I guess it's pretty good. It must be, It's lasted 26 years now. If it went bad now, it's probably to old for a refund.
Micah, you didn't say hi to me. Are you mad at me?
I told you I would never do that again, can't you forgive and forget? Besides you did it to me first, remember? BTW, I still think it's funny!!!!!!!! BWAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[duncan (duncan)]

What happened to all the colorful history on this board? Many of the posts have been purged. Now we
won't be able to pass on the good times to our posterity! All we have now are those precious memories.

As Bob Hope used to say, "Thanks for the memories"

[micah (micah)]

its amazing what you can say when you think no one is listening, perhaps that is the reason for the purge.

[duncan (duncan)]

Mark,
Sorry to see you go. However, I respect any decision you feel you need to make. I appreciate your posts.
Even though many of the posts have been purged, I still remember them and know the truth. Stay in the Word and close to God.
Make sure you follow the Bible and not a person. I have fond memories of my childhood at FA
and remember the Word that I was taught. However, I also saw first hand how many interpretations were
taken the wrong way or out of context and many lives were hurt. I will never speak against minister.
As such, I have never said a negative word against Dr. Freeman. I do think some of his teachings were misguided,
but I still think he was God's servant. As for Kenneth Copeland, I have never said a negative word
about him either (although I do not agree with some of his teachings.) Ministers will be held to
a higher standard when they stand before God, so I will not try to do his job. They will all have to
answer for their words.

I hope nothing I said on this board has led you to withdraw. Although I have never met you, I feel
that you are sincere in your walk with God. As such, I love you as a brother in Christ.

Duncan

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
I hope you weren't refering to me when you said about Copeland, "but says he teaches a doctrine of heresy."
You mention it right after you mention that I won't call Copeland a heretic. If you read my post,
you can see that I merely said that "I do not agree with some of his teachings." Just because I
don't agree doesn't mean that I am calling it heresy. I think John MacArthur is a strong man of
God. However, I don't agree with his interpretations on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
That doesn't mean he's teaching heresy.

If you weren't refering to my statement, then I apologize for misinterpreting what you said.

As for remembering those who died, you may recall that I had a family member who died. So I remember.
However, it happened and I can't change it. Therefore, I have to move on and not dwell in the past.

Thanks!

[fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)]

Hello Mark.
How about making up?
Lets apologize to each other and quit calling names.?
I think that is what Jesus would want.
I forgive you of all the names you called me in previous posts
And I forgive you of all the mean names
you just called me in this post……..

Lets get along and please stop calling Copeland a Heretic.

You can draw a small circle and cut me out.
I will draw a bigger circle and keep you in…..

Lets show Christ’s Love and apologize…

Tell me you apologize for calling me and Copeland a heretic.

Lets find Love and change this mess.
We can do it together , the Lord would want this ,I am sure….

I want to find the way to Love you as a brother..
isnt this what Jesus would want?

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
You are exactly right. I did post that JDS is utter heresy, and I do not back down from that.
I have never heard Copeland for myself,(only what other people have posted that he said).
With all that being said, if he is truly teaching that Jesus had to go to hell to redeem me, then he
is teaching false doctrine. Since I don't know for sure, I will not make any strong statements
one way or the other.

If you don't agree with me, I am OK with that. I will not hate you or talk bad about you, I just won't
agree with you on that topic.

Thanks for the posts.

[micah (micah)]

five, can I dissagree with you and still go to heaven? what does the bible give as far as guidlines, ie. what must I do to be saved? I dont know a whole lot about this whole jds thing, it almost seems to me like the bible contradicts itself, It clearly states that jesus was the perfect lamb of god who knew no sin, but then it also says that he bore our sin, Its gettin a little deep......
so what if I believe that jesus went to mars when he died, does that keep me out of the pearly gates?
I thought at one time that all you had to do was believe in your heart and confess with your mouth,
but it sounds (according to you) otherwise.
maybey im reading you wrong, but the point that im trying to make is that I dont think that having a difference in doctrine is really all that big of a deal. I may be wrong, feel free to jump my ship (so to speak) and let me know. I always have said that its all about wether or not you at least agree on the basics, and to me that means, jesus being the son of god, died for our sin, only way to the father, ect. will I see a catholic in heaven, or maybey a baptist, pentacostal, jahovas witness knocking on my mansion door? (hehe)

[micah (micah)]

five, thank you very much for your reply, I see where you are coming from, I am glad to know that you think that people can dissagree with you on certian issues and still be considered children of God. I cannot say that I agree with you or not, I dont think that you are a heretic, I think that God looks at the heart, but I question the part about jesus being in the world of the dead, where is that in the bible? I agree with you on most of what you said, Im glad that you will not see my questions as being a personal attack, and im waiting for a reply.

I would also like to hear from duncan, my good friend, whats your take on the issue? Im sure that you know alot more than I do on this issue.
hope to hear from y'all soon!

[micah (micah)]

wow that was quick, can you give me the other side of the arguement too? maybey a preview of what mark1124 will say?
I am really interested in this.

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Found another.

Kenneth Copeland: prophet?

In February 2004 Kenneth Copeland posted a special mail-out. Entitled From the desk of Kenneth,it reads:

I had a visitation of the Lord New Year's Eve as I was preparing for the New Year's Eve service at Eagle Mountain International Church.
He talked to me about 2004 and some about 2005.

He took Gloria and me back to a message from Brother Hagin's Camp Meeting in 1977, which was three days before He called me into the prophet's office. I've never been so excited and thrilled in all my life. Period! Never.

If you would like to have the tape from the New Year's Eve service, I would love to sow it into your life. Just fill out the enclosed card and send it back to me, and I'll send you the tape free of charge and post paid.

Gloria and I so want you to get this tape and study it. It's a word from heaven. Don't put it off. Do it right now.

We love you and pray for you every day.

Love Ken

Here we have it. Copeland himself saying that God called him to be a prophet, and by his own confession he says that he has been a prophet for 27 years (at the time of the mail-out). So let us examine Kenneth Copeland, in regard to God's standard.

The Berlin Wall

The following prophecy (dated June 4, 1989) appears on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries' website as proof of Copeland's 'prophetic anointing'. The prophecy given concerns the destruction of the Berlin Wall (which occurred on November 9, 1989 and the Brandenburg gate on December 22, 1989; with Germany reunited on October 3, 1990).

Now this is what the Lord is saying, so hearken and heed to it. Take heed to it. Listen. For mighty wave of the supernatural is coming and soon to burst on the scene. Soon to crash like a mighty tidal wave and burst on the scene. Not just here and there, and a little here and a little over there, but as a mighty wave splashes and covers entire continents. And the power of God will rise in places that people didn't even know that there was a God. But it will be there. And there will be things that will fall before the pressure of it. That people will shake their head and say, 'I never would have believed that could happen.'

There are going to be political walls and political fences that crumble right before men's eyes.

Mighty, mighty strongholds of political power and political strength in different political systems all over >the world will suddenly change hands, crumble, and fall and men will say, 'I never would have thought that would happen, but I'm seeing it. I'm >looking at it.' The Berlin Wall will come down. It's a sign. The Berlin Wall will come down. There will be other walls that will come down. There will be some walls that will go up. Many changes are going to take place. But those that are wise in their heart and listen to the Spirit of God will be quick to say, 'Oh, the Lord is at work in the land.' And they will be quick to pray. And they will be quick to rise up as a witness in the streets. And they will be quick to testify wherever they go: The Lord is working! The Lord is working! He'll save you! He'll heal you! He'll deliver you! He'll bring you into the place that you ought to be.

There are those that will be that way tonight. There are two here that will walk out of this place tonight and say, 'I'll tell you, that's the silliest bunch I ever was around in my life.' There are two people that will walk out of here saying that tonight. One of them is going to be arrested in his thinking before morning. The other one, if he doesn't repent, won't live long. This is not a time to fuss around and play around and criticise God's people or His ways. For He's God. Amen. And it's closing-in time. It's time for things to come to pass and things to be reckoned with.
Amen.

—Extract of Prophecy delivered by Kenneth Copeland, June 4, 1989 Eagle Mountain International Church, Posted on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Website.

It is reported that Copeland instructed this prophecy to be included in his BVOV magazine — but an employee got 'cold feet' and did not put it in, and thus this prophecy was not published in BVOV prior to the collapse of the Berlin Wall. You can interpret this however you want.

So is Kenneth Copeland a real prophet?
Based upon the above prophecy some may believe he is; but remember God's prophet is right 100% of the time, not 99% or even 99.9% of the time — God's words do NOT fail... EVER!

Kenneth Copeland Ministries Brisbane Convention — 1995
During the 1995 Kenneth Copeland Ministries' Convention in Brisbane (Australia, Saturday evening ser vice) Kenneth Copeland said (paraphrase), 'God has told me to come to Brisbane every year until he says otherwise'. I cannot quote Copeland's words exactly here, but I know Copeland said it. How do I know? I was there and I heard him say it — just as the other several thousand people there heard him (and cheered when he said it). It is interesting to note that with the (October) 2004 Australian convention, Copeland will have made it out to Australia four times (if we include the original 1995 convention) in the last ten years.

Some may want to come to Copeland's defence and say that this was not prophecy. But again, we must remember that prophecy is not just the foretelling of future events, prophecy includes forth telling — the speaking forth of God's Word.

Copeland said that God told him. Well did He, or did He not?

If He did then why was Copeland disobedient?
What are we saying if we dismiss these words? 'Oh, that's all right — after all he's sincere. It's only one mistake.' A true prophet leads people to God — not away from Him. The prophets of old, from whom came the Bible, spoke THE Word of God.

They wrote what God told them, and it is on this foundation that our faith rests: THAT GOD DID EVERYTHING FOR OUR SALVATION — INCLUDING ITS DOCUMENTATION FOR US TO REFERENCE. What are we saying about our 'faith in God' if we destroy the very foundation on which we stand?

As to this salvation,the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to youmade careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven— things into which angels long to look (1 Peter 1:10-12).

And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind. For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honour and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory,'This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased '—and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who willsecretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and intheirgreed they willexploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (2 Peter 1:15 - 2:3).

Here we have the very fundamentals of the Gospel and our faith (i.e. our faith in God): The Word of God does NOT fail to come to pass. Let us look and see if the following 'prophecy' came to pass.

Prophecy concerning Islam
And there are going to be multiplied millions upon millions; there's going to be close to a billion people that have been trapped in the religion [Islam] that over the next few months are going to come into the kingdom of God. That's gonna happen. You watch and see what I'm telling you. Because it's been. I'm telling you Satan fat's in the fire; he pushed it over the line and God has moved, and for over a hundred years the United States has been an instrument of judgement in the hand of God. That's one of the reasons we're here. Amen. I'd like to get in there and walk around a while but I, I don't have time. But I can tell you this: that thing is coming to an end. It's over. I'm talking about Islam, every, all of that stuff. Now, God is making his move.
>— Kenneth Copeland, Word of Life Christian Centre, Honolulu Hawaii. Dedication Celebration Service, Evening, Dec. 2, 2001
{A downloadable mp3 audio file of the above prophecy is available from the website: deceptioninthechurch.org}

The Compact Macquarie Dictionary defines a 'few' as: 'not many; a small number (of)'. Furthermore we must note the context and grammar of what Copeland said. For instance he said, 'the next few months' and not, 'the next few centuries', or 'the next few decades' or even 'the next few years'. Copeland said, 'the next few months'.

If we were generous with the timing of these months we could well say that a few could be a half-dozen (6) to a dozen (12), or maybe even up to two dozen (24). But now, as we are approaching the three-year mark, there is no reported mass conversion of 1 million Muslims, 10 million or even 100 million let alone Copeland's 'close to a billion'. And quite poignantly, the opposite seems to be true, where thanks to September 11 there is a fascination with Islam such that people are willing to become its disciples, and/or defend it as a 'religion of peace'. Consider now the events taking place and what the Bible prophesies for the end-times:

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that younot be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a messageor a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless theapostasycomes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith,paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

Again, concerning Islam, Copeland prophesies:
Islam No More

This war, particularly the way you know it now, is not going to last as long as everyone thinks it is because the major parts of it will come apart and fall. The deathblow has already happened to the nation of Islam. In my eyes, saith the Lord, it's already fallen and it is no more.
—Kenneth Copeland, Eagle Mountain International Church. New Year's Eve Service, December 2002 (Available on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Website)

Below are several prophecies of Copeland's ranging from May 2002 to May 2004. What we see here is a continuous and ongoing repetition of messages, which only exist to promote Copeland and his ministry.

May 10, 2002 -– Mt. Helena Victory Campaign (Extract Only)
The outpouring of the Holy Ghost that is in motion right now is intensifying and will be thrust into a higher level before the end of this summer. {Note: northern hemisphere's summer} By the end of June you will see definite, very definite, moves of the Spirit of God in the realm of the miraculous...Before the end of June you will see definite increases... By the end of June you will begin to hear of super-miracles, mega-moves of God that startle human minds and thinking. There's going to be a major change, major change. It's not going to be just the same old, same old. Major change is about to happen in the Middle East. Major, major change is about to happen in the Middle East, and don't even try — you can't figure it out. I'm running this, saith the Lord. That's my territory and that's my town and I'll run it how I see fit. I've taken over the politics in case you didn't know.
—Kenneth Copeland, Mt. Helena Victory Campaign, May 10, 2002. (Available on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Website).

By the end of June we did NOT hear of super-miracles or mega-moves of God. No human minds or thoughts were startled, other than the ongoing defence, by some, of Copeland and his false teachings. And to-date, there is no 'major change' in the Middle East that hasn't already been anticipated. The security fence in Israel is going up — and the PLO is not happy! Iraq has been handed back to the Iraqi people and the terrorists are still unhappy! In the two years since this prophecy there is No Mega-Anything or Major-Anything: let alone 'by the end of June (2002)'.

May 1, 2004 - Detroit Victory Campaign (Extract Only)
I'm calling on you, saith the Lord. I need you. I need your faith. I need what I have taught you and trained you to do and I don't just need it in church. I need it all day long. I need you to be in agreement with me so that I can move in your behalf and in behalf of the kingdom of God. The way I have it planned and far exceedingly great measure far above all that you have any idea of what's hanging right over your heads in the spirit. It's hanging there. Oh my, oh my, oh my. An outpouring unprecedented in the knowledge and in the sight of man. Things that have never been seen before - particularly in modern-day generations. There's coming this summer (Northern Hemisphere) an unprecedented move of God and you're part of it. Your faith is important to it. And it's just hanging in the realm of the spirit. It's just hanging there. It's hanging, oh Glory to God. I can see, I see it in the Spirit.
— Kenneth Copeland, Detroit Victory Campaign, May 1, 2004 (Available on the Kenneth Copeland Ministries Website)

I must apologise for burdening you with the amount of reading in these 'prophecies', but it is important to be able to see the pattern that Copeland is taking with them. And that is, ever higher, ever more extreme, with no fulfilment and no substance.

Some of the statements made in these prophecies have already been dealt with in previous Kenneth Copeland Unmasked articles. For instance, God's involvement with politics is already covered in the Sovereignty of God, and America's covenant with God has been covered by a quick look at the Mayflower Compact in the section called Spiritual Heritage. But as for God saying, 'I need you. I need your faith' etc, let us consider what Scripture says,

Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure' (Isaiah 46:9-10).
Then Job answered the LORD and said: I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You (Job 42:1-2).

Job recognised that absolute sovereignty of God. In Isaiah God says that He 'declares the end from the beginning'and that His 'purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'. Dare we agree with the 'god' of Copeland's prophecy, who says, 'I need you. I need your faith ... I need you to be in agreement with me so that I can move in your behalf and in behalf of the kingdom of God.' Is this the God of the Bible?
Does this statement marry with the Bible? No! A thousand times, 'No!'
Summary and Conclusion
Throughout these 'Unmasked' articles on Kenneth Copeland, I have shown that Copeland continually and consistently misuses, misapplies and misrepresents God and His Word.

It is irrefutable that Kenneth Copeland preaches a gospel which Paul the Apostle did not preach, and distorts the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. Why does he do this? I believe that it is for the very reason that Copeland does NOT know the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, but believes and teaches a false gospel (with its false christ) that Copeland has NOT received the salvation of God. Consequently he does NOT have the Spirit of God within him and therefore he CANNOT discern the truth, but is himself deceived. Therefore Kenneth Copeland can ONLY preach the imaginings of his own mind and his own humanistic reasoning; and repeat the pseudo-spiritual, metaphysical doctrines of his heretical predecessors: Kenyon, Hagin and others.

This series has shown that the teachings of Kenneth Copeland contradict the Word of God. He gets creation, with Adam and his authority WRONG!
He gets 'the fall', and the 'transfer' of authority to the devil WRONG!
He gets the Sovereignty of God WRONG! His 'prayer of salvation' is WRONG!
He gets Pentecost and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit WRONG!

Even his prophecies are WRONG (false)!
Kenneth Copeland gets the ENTIRETY of the foundation of Christian faith WRONG!
And if the foundation is wrong, then everything built upon it is WRONG!!!

I cannot say, or emphasise, this enough: Kenneth Copeland is a false teacher and false prophet.

As such, no Christian should seek his counsel, guidance or teachings in the pursuit of maturity. No Christian should promote Copeland (or any of his fellow Word-Faith ministers), and no Christian should support his ministry. Kenneth Copeland's foundational beliefs and teachings are heretical and blasphemous.

But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Timothy 3:13).

Any ministry or minister who promotes Copeland and/or Word-Faith is to be rebuked:

If in ignorance—then for correction.
If through deception—then for salvation. If willingly and knowingly—then for judgement.

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment (James 3:1).

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. (2 Timothy 3:12 - 4:5).

Pastors are supposed to shepherd their flocks, they are supposed to protect their flocks from wolves. Pastors are supposed to be watchmen, they are supposed to sound the alarm and warn their congregations about the enemy - and the false doctrines they bring. Sadly, many pastors are asleep at their posts and cannot see the enemies advancing. But thankfully God gave us a man of God who was not, and sounded the warning alarm - Brother Hobart E. Freeman and those who teach like him. Thank you Jesus! Amen.

Worse still, those who do sound the alarm are berated, criticised and ridiculed about the notion of being 'watchmen' by the very people who fail in their duties and allow the heresies of Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Paul Crouch, Rick Warren (Saddleback), Willow Creek and others to infiltrate their churches.

-------------------------------------------------

Phew!!! Now I'll get my shield up to block all the stones that will be thrown at me. Now I will hush and smile at the responses to theser postings - like this: http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

(Message edited by mark1124 on March 06, 2005)

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Michael,

All you have to do is to prove the statements I quoted from Copeland are scriptural and you have yourself a deal. But you can't.
Prove to me that his prophesies came true and you have a deal. But you can't.

You talk about a message of fear and bondage, I have one for you.

A couple of friends of mine went to Rhema Bible Institute in OK, you know...the school that Kenneth Hagin started. One day, one of my friends saw a funnel cloud coming out of the sky. He said, "Hmmm....a funnel cloud." One student told him, "Don't say that!!!!" I think that is bondage and fear....fear that what you say, in this case, a tornado....will come to pass.

I saw some other instances somewhere on the internet where Copeland's message was a message of fear too. I forget where. But I know I saw it.

But if you can prove that Copeland's statements which I posted are scriptural, then I will change my position.

I suppose you would call the Early Church Fathers unloving for calling Marcion or Arius heretics too, right Michael? And I suppose the tests of prophecies and false teachings in scripture are unloving, right?

Go ahead a listen to Copeland if you want. That's your priviledge, like me listening to Freeman. But you need to prove to me that the quotes I posted were taken out of context.

And speaking of taking things out of context....I have heard statements made by Freeman that were taken out of context too.

I am not Copeland's judge and he will not face me on judgment day. But I can judge what he says based on scripture and that is what I have done as well as Bro. Freeman and many many others as well.

I do not doubt that Copeland loves Jesus or if he is saved. I know that he holds to some sound biblical teaching, like the virgin birth, salvation and such. But when you have someone who mixes truth with error, that is dangerous to the gullible. It is more dangerous than someone who does nothing but spew out false teaching or one that is a reprobate, one who is unsaved.
One can identify those people a mile away. But the unlearned in the scriptures will swallow everything that is said, regardless of the source. Your reading from someone with experience in that area. I used to swallow everything that I heard. But not any more. I am wiser now and more discerning.

Granted, I learned a lot of good things from Copeland and the others. Copeland has some good things to say. But he is human and is subject to error just like anyone else, even Freeman.

That is why we have the scriptures as our plumb line to measure every teaching with. You want me to say, "I'm sorry?" Well, OK. I'm sorry, but some of what Copeland says does not line up with scripture. He says some things which he does not back up with scripture. Period. There are some things that he does....and that's what makes it dangerous.

[fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)]

Mark
I’m not sure what you are referring to when you said your sorry, are you speaking to me?
If you are sorry for saying those bad names ,I accept your repentance and want to be freinds...
I think this is what you said.....
Jesus is Lord.
Qoute;

You want me to say, "I'm sorry?" Well, OK. I'm sorry,

(Message edited by fivefoldprophet on March 06, 2005)

[micah (micah)]

Mr 5, I do understand what was missed back in the day, (love,grace,ect.) I cannot say that I agree with you on the jds issue, on the other hand im failing to see how that would make you a heretic. I think that that is a serios charge and we should all tread lightly. I also fail to see the big deal about copeland, unless the things that mark said are true. I know that statements can be taken out of context, Ive had that happen to me on this board, however if he said "You don't have a god in you, you are one." and the other things that mark is quoting then we may have a serious case of heresy. I can find that in any new age group but not in the bible. So whats the deal? Why are you so in love with copeland and why is mark so against him. Are these accusations true? I would hope that you dont follow copeland like many followed hobart, thinking that every thing that he says is divine and straight from God, and I really dont think that you do. So how did this whole thing turn out to be a attack/defence of copeland anyways? I fail to see the relevence. are we not here to discuss faith assembly? I will be honest with you, this (for some unknown reason) has been a major part of my life that I needed to heal, so far talking with everyone on this board has been futile. If I was questioning everything about god I would have turned away and said forget it, in other words, if I was at the point where I was to make up my mind as to who God really was and what this whole christianity thing was about and the only thing I had to go off of was this board, what do you think my reaction would be? I may be wrong (hehe) but I think that the bible says "you will know them by thier love" If we cannot love each other as christians than how can we love the lost? If I cannot love the person I will bow down in front of the throne in worship with for all of eternity than how can I love anyone? So I am challenging you two, 5 and mark, you have said now that you want to bury the hatchet so to speak and love each other like brothers, which is a perfect choice of words because who has had a brother that they never fought? So why dont you do it? all this talk and no action. Are we not like christ enough? what will it take, mark, can you not love 5 even if you think he is a heretic? Let me put it this way, if you think that he is so wrong, what is the most effective way to bring this to his attention? when you want to convince your wife to let you buy a skillsaw do you yell at her, or tell her in a gentle and loving way how much you love her and how many things you will skillfully craft for her with your new skillsaw?
ok your turn.

[micah (micah)]

ok mark your turn, give me some scripture to rebutt this, no personal attacks and absolutly nothing about copeland, what does the bible say about 5 being a heretic?

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Here are a few bible quotes about heretics, false prophets, and those who depart from the faith, and what we are to do about them. This is important because some foolishly refuse to believe that it is possible to fall into error, or that it is impossible for them.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many .

Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The verse in Matt 24:24 is sometimes used to say that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived. But note, it does not give the reason why the elect cannot be deceived. Perhaps the reason it will be impossible to deceive the elect at that time is because the elect will have been raptured, and made incorruptable (1 Cor 15). But right now, all of the elect who are not dead, are still corruptable, and still open to deception. If we, the elect, could not be deceived now, then why would Jesus even bother to warn us about false prophets at all?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Pet 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Next, we ought to be ready to explain why we believe what we believe when people ask, giving them reasons.

1 Pet 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
And we ought to judge, try, and test to see whether other people are false prophets or not. This is important because many are afraid to judge, but we are commanded to judge and "try the spirits".

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The oft-quoted passage about not judging applies to hypocrites, not the righteous. When we know truth, we are commanded to judge and help the other to see more clearly.

Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

It is utter hypocrisy to say "Don't judge me, because judging is wrong." Obviously, the one who says that is judging the other person, too. Therefore, most certainly, the Bible does not teach us that "judging is wrong". Romans 14 is also often used to justify not following the commands to judge.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

This does not say that "judging is wrong", rather it says that we are unable and unqualified to judge certain things (and this has no application whatsoever to judging false prophecy and trying the spirits, which we are commanded to judge). Romans14:4 applies to "doubtful disputations", see Romans 14:1. In context of the whole chapter, Christians have freedom do act according to our conscience, as led by the Holy Spirit, and this is supported elsewhere as well. Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 12 make it clear that not all Christians are given gifts to do each kind of work, and we are not to judge whether someone should be a preacher, or evangelist, or teacher, or healer, or exercise some other gift for the body of Christ.

Judging in righteousness is difficult. It takes wisdom, discernment, experience, and exercise to detect whether someone is teaching something evil.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Yes, we should be able to discern between good and evil, and able to identify false prophets, trying the spirits, giving reasons for our hope, showing our brothers how to cast the mote out of their eyes, judging righteous judgment.

Next, the Bible tells us what we are to do when we finally are able to discover and identify the heretics, the false prophets. We are to fight them (not physically, but with words), rebuke them, reject them, and set them straight with sound teaching.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick [141 hairetikos] after thefirst and second admonition reject;

Strong's: 141 hairetikos {hahee-ret-ee-kos'}
from the same as 140; TDNT - 1:184,27; adj
AV - that is a heretic 1; 1
1) fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2) schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3) heretic

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Notice this everyone, especially you Michael:

Many people erroneously think that someone who is rebuking another does so only out of hate, as they misidentify those who do the rebuking as having a spirit of hate. However, the Bible is clear that to avoid rebuking is to avoid loving, and that those who love will rebuke.


Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Again folks, read carefully:

Next, rebuking another often involves name-calling, shaming and embarrassing the other one when exposing his error, often offending him in the process. And yes, it is certainly Biblical to do so.

REPROVE 1651 elegcho {el-eng'-kho}
of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 2:473,221; v
AV - reprove 6, rebuke 5, convince 4, tell (one's) fault 1, convict 1; 17
1) to convict, refute, confute 1a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted 1b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose 2) to find fault with, correct 2a) by word 2a1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove 2a2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation 2b) by deed 2b1) to chasten, to punish

REBUKE
2008 epitimao {ep-ee-tee-mah'-o}
from 1909 and 5091; TDNT - 2:623,249; v
AV - rebuke 24, charge 4, straightly charge 1; 29
1) to show honour to, to honour 2) to raise the price of 3) to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty 4) to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely 4a) to admonish or charge sharply

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and murderers in Matt 23.

Peter called the people murderers in Acts 2.
Stephen called the Pharisees hard-hearted murderers in Acts 7.

Teaching, (and contending for the faith, rebuking error &amp; refuting heresy), brings in unity, and keeps us from being deceived by false doctrine.

Eph 4:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Finally, what is the purpose of the heretics (followers of false doctrine)? To help make the truth known (manifest) by comparison!

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

I guess based on this, I do not hate anyone, including Copeland and Michael, but rather love them because I am exposing the false teaching and heresies. If I didn't expose the heresies like JDS, that would prove that I don't love Copeland and Michael. It also proves that Freeman and FA does NOT have a message of hate!!
Nor anyone else who exposes false teaching for that matter.

I was criticized for saying that Copeland loves Jesus while still calling him a heretic. Well, it is possible for people to be a Christian and love Jesus but fall into deception. Does that mean they are no longer a Christian? No. You stop being a Christian by renouncing Christ as Hebrews 6 points out.

[micah (micah)]

ok so the bible says to rebuke, where does it say that the jds teaching is a heresy? this should be easy for you im sure you got the book. and by the way you act as if the basic fact that you rebuke someone automaticly means your showing them love, not true. However I am elated that the bible does not condemn calling people names. (wow,I think I just quoted something out of context!!! yippppppeeeeeee!) see how easy it is? That is why I asked for scripture that says that jds is heresy, I dont want to hear any more about copeland, I want to know if someone can think that jesus became sin and go to heaven.

[micah (micah)]

props for "hopeland" (hehe) (i enjoyed that) I dont have hobart theology tapes, I think I could more than easily find them. I enjoy the debate, and both sides seem logical, not having reseached the leviticus sacrifices I cannot speak with any authority on the issue, but it seems logical to say that in both the old and new testament something that was pure and spotless, without blemish had to die because of sin. that makes sense to me, I was a little lost on the sinfull animals thing, I understand the point of view but I dont think that God would have set up a whole system of sacrificing for sin knowing that it was futile and did not work or do any good. A waste of time. At least that is the way I understood what you said, I would also have to ask why mary being a virgin trumps the fact that she was just another human born under the curse. I thought the idea of her being a virgin was simply so no one could ever say that jesus had a biological human father. And was it literally the sin that killed jesus or was it the literal act of crucifiction? and how can anyone come up with a complicated doctrine without adding to the bible?
I am just a simple man, and this is a complicated subject, I will never know it all but thanks for the deep thoughts, both of you

[micah (micah)]

let me see if i read you right 5. U believe that even the act of crucifiction would not have killed jesus because he had no sin and therefore could not die? I will assume that is a yes, let me know if not but otherwise no need to reply on that one. the other thing I wanted to ask was if a christian could sin. It almost sounds to me like you dont believe that, however I at the same time I think you do, how could you not? So the real question I am asking is in regards to what you said, which is this; "A real born again Christian should not say we are �Just stinking flesh�..
It would show that this person is "walking in the flesh" , and not understanding
That we are Free and can overcome and have victory�" OK I believe that we are free and victory ect. but I dont think that I will go through the rest of my life and never commit another sin. (which is why I asked if a christian sins) So saying that I will sin is addmitting to what, just being stinking flesh right? Or not? Or do I have a spirit of confusion? (hehe) So this is what I believe, I know I have sinned (insert famous bible scripture here) And I believe that my freedom from sin comes when I confess my sin (insert other well know scripture here) and the realization of that leads me not to go ahaid and sin all I want, because then I would have to confess ALL my sins ALL THE TIME, and that could get a bit tedious, what if i forget one? So where does this leave me? See I think that I am just stinking flesh, because of the simple fact that I know I will not live the rest of my life and not commit another sin. But I know that by grace and the fact that I am a new creation my DESIRE is NOT to sin but to be rightous. does that make any sence to anyone out there or am I like a barking dog? I dont know because I am still relatively new to the whole "thinking for yourself thing" I have not heard this preached, but its what I believe and I know how to have an open mind so I would ask that anyone that has anything to say would say it. thanks

[micah (micah)]

steve a false teacher? and whats up with editing your posts? I once read in the bible somewhere about letting your yes be a yes and no be a no. If you say something that you regret say your sorry, dont cover your track to act like you never said it, are we all adult enough to say what we mean and mean what we say? How can I take anyone like that seriously? I have one for you

credibility

n : the quality of being believable or trustworthy [syn: credibleness, believability] [ant: incredibility]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

this is somthing that can be earned and can be lost, once lost is 100% harder to earn back. I challenge you to end it, if you say something stick to it, OK? Or am I going to have to tell daddy on you? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

(Message edited by micah on March 09, 2005)

[fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)]

Mark

I do have time to Deal with you.
and can even stay on the internet too.

lets be friends and be Brothers
in Christ..

I dont want to treat you mean.
and would like to get over all this..

lets pray we can come togeather in Love!

Please forgive Copeland and me and all other
Christians

Jesus can heal this ,Lets walk by Faith

dont cover your tracks ,turn around and go the other way,, we always can because Jesus really Loves us...................






(Message edited by fivefoldprophet on March 09, 2005)

[micah (micah)]

5, do you believe that jesus became a sinner, thought like a sinner acted like a sinner ect.?
or do you believe like me, that when the bible says that he bore our sin that means that he bore it. plain and simple, I would like to use the example that my wife gave me. She compared it to being pregnant, when you become pregnant you have a entity inside your body that is not you, you dont think and act like a baby when one is inside you right? so jesus could have carried our sin in his body but not actually became sin, in the way that he would have been a sinner, then he would have said forgive ME father, instead of forgive THEM. right? or not? Is there such a fine line as to say that he bore it on his back instead of on or in his body? I dont know, what does the greek say about that mark? I dont know greek and I know you do.
thanks for any insight you both could give.

[duncan (duncan)]

WOW!

It seems that I opened a can of worms last week, and then left ya'll hanging! I've been in Naples on business all week, so I am just now catching up on all the posts. I will be doing a lot of traveling over the next month, so my posts may be sporadic. Rest assured, however, that I will be keeping up.

So much has been said, that there is no way I can respond to all the issues. I will start out brief, and expand later, if necessary.

Trust in the sufficiency of the Scriptures. Everything we need to live is right there. God has revealed everything He wants us to know through his Word. We do not need a "prophet" to tell us a new revelation. God has already revealed Himself to us.

Secondly, God's Word is simple. II Cor 11:3 talks about the "simplicity of Christ." Why would God reveal himself in a way that few could understand? We do not have to all be ThD's to understand His Word. Many times people try to read things into the Word, because it sometimes sounds too simple. Just take it at face value and ask the Holy Spirit too speak to you.

I'm already on record as too my feelings regarding JDS, so I will not try to put together 40 different commentaries or fill up two pages with scripture (although I could). What I will do is show you the simple way in which I explained it to my 5-yr old child. When I was asked why Jesus died on the cross for our sins, here is how the Holy Spirit led me to explain it:

Imagine that you were really bad at school. You were fighting and talking ugly all day. At the end of the day, the principal said that he was going to give you a spanking for being so bad. However, I loved you so much, that I came up to school and told the principal to give me the spanking, instead. You were the one that really deserved the spanking, but I loved you so much that I didn't want you to get one. What I did was take the punishment for something you did. I did not become all the bad things that you did, I merely took the spanking that you earned. The very moment I received the spanking, you were no longer in trouble. Jesus did the same thing for us, but on a much larger scale.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Whew! That's a lot to answer, so I will see what I can do. To begin, please do not try to read any more into my comments than exactly what I said. You tend to do that a lot. If you're unsure what I meant, just ask me.

1) My comment regarding a prophet means that no one can tell us anything from God that God has not already told us in his Word. If they do, they are getting their prophecies from demonic sources. My purpose for saying that is to emphasize that we need to trust only the Word.

2)I'm not sure what John Calvin has to do with anything. I am a strict Calvinist (i.e. I agree with the 5 points of Calvinism). However, if he taught JDS, he was wrong on that subject, and I disagree with him.

3)As far as five fold ministries today, I believe they can all function. Prophecy, as it is interpreted in the NT is not the same as in the OT. There will not be a true prophet on earth until the rapture of the church. During the tribulation, the Holy Spirit will be taken away, and God will speak to people through true prophets (i.e. the "two witnesses")

4)According to the dictionary, a heretic is "a person who holds a controversial opinion at variance with established beliefs." Based on that definition, a person can be a heretic and still be saved. As for how I consider you - I do not think you are satanic. I do think you are misinformed on this one doctrine, and I can not agree with you. That doesn't mean I don't love you like a brother.

5)I believe the blood is what atoned (i.e. reconciled us to God). The resurrection gave Jesus a glorified body of flesh and bone(but not of blood). We will also have glorified bodies at the rapture.

6) Jesus voluntarily gave up His life. The triune God had a predestined plan of salvation to redeem those whom He had chosen.

7) It is possible for a person to die who had no sin in them, because Jesus did. He had a human body that was no different than ours. It was His spirit that made Him God.

I hope you find this informative. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

One final thing I will weigh in on - Somewhere in the pages and pages of posts above, I read where someone mentioned women ministers. Based on the Bible, if a woman is a minister, she is 100% out of the will of God (unless she is teaching young women). There is no other possible way to interpret the Word.

Thanks for putting up with the long post.

[micah (micah)]

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Does this apply to this disscussion?
(titus 3:9)

[micah (micah)]

i have about had enough, I on the one hand am intersested in this discussion and on the other am about to lose control of my bowels, are we not splitting hairs here? although it is intersting to discuss it means nothing to me in my everyday walk with christ. I know that some will have a major problem with that statement so I welcome your rebukes one and all. I just dont see the big deal, still, after having both sides explained in an exquisite manor, isnt the ONLY thing thats important the fact that jesus died for my sins? Or not? and anyways, I thought this was supposed to be a place to talk about fa. and all that "GOOD" stuff

[duncan (duncan)]

Five, thanks for the quality post.

I agree with Micah, and I don't want this board to turn into a full-blown discussion of doctrine.

That being said, I don't think we are too apart from each other on the above. I think some of our thoughts are being lost in the medium of this board.

My comment about true prophets relates to the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. The people in the OT had no Bible. As such, God spoke his Word directly through His prophets(or in the case of Balaam, someone who was not his prophet). In other words, the OT prophet was the mouthpiece of God. Once the scriptures were complete (John said in Revelation not to add or subtract from the Word), we now have God's Word and the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us. Prophets are are no longer the mouthpiece of God - His Word is the mouthpiece. The office of prophet today is one of exhorting from Word of God, as revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Your example under my 1st point above is totally consistant with what I said. Answers and revelations regarding your two examples can be found in the scripture. If someone had the NT office of a prophet, then he would exhort a person or persons based on what the Holy Spirit revealed to him in the scripture, not on a new word given directly from God. Does that mean it can't happen? Yes, it can. All things are possible with God.

The heresy issue can be debated for hours. My personal belief is that TRUE heresy is from satan, and the heretic who preaches it is doomed unless he repent. A true heresy, in my opinion, would be to question the diety of Christ or preach against the Holy Spirit. The problem we have run into, especially at Faith Assembly, was the definition of heresy. The impression was given, either directly or indirectly, that any teaching that opposed FA was heresy. That is simply untrue. Many people can believe or preach errors and go to heaven. I'm sure that some of the things I believe could be wrong. I try to study as much as I can, so I can interpret the scriptures in a proper way.

The final comment I will make is regarding who killed Jesus. It's simple. The men of Jesus day. As far as they were concerned, they made a free choice to do what they wanted. On the other hand, God's perfect plan for redemption could not have relied on imperfect man. That means that it was already predestined by God to happen exactly as it did.

Like I said, I don't think we are too far off from each other. We just have a different way of saying it.

If I forgot to respond to anything else for which you would like a comment, please let me know. Thanks!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,

See - I told you that we were not too far off. I was just wording it a little different, and I recognize it may have been a bit confusing.

I agree with your comments regarding heresy. I can accept your statement and say that believing heresy is something that can keep you from heaven.

For Micah's sake, let me make sure this post involves Faith Assembly. As I stated earlier, FA (especially in the later years of Dr. Freeman's ministry) seemed to think that anything not in line with their teaching was heresy. Examples included going to doctors, women wearing dresses, leaving the church to go to another church, borrowing money, dating, etc, etc. They had the whole concept of heresy mixed up.

One real-world example I can think of is that the mainstream Church of Christ believes that you must be baptized to be saved. Based on Scripture, that is clearly an error. However, it is not a heresy that will keep you out of heaven.

Finally, I believe that satan was working through the people who crucified Christ. So, it stands to reason that satan had an influence. If you take it back to the beginning, then man is the sole reason Jesus was crucified. The Bible states that "for by one man, sin entered into the world." Had Adam and Eve not given into temptation, there would have been no reason for Christ to die.

Thanks, and keep up the thought-provoking dialogue.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
I do not doubt people saying those things to you. I was too young to hear things like that for myself, but I can believe it.

As for miracles, I know God took care of my family through a lot of different situations that I could say is miraculous. As for someone regaining their sight or a leg growing, I never personally witnessed that.

As for demon possession, I did witness one account. As a kid, it made a huge impression on me (not to mention that is scared the daylights out of me.) I can see it in my mind like it was yesterday. It was a tall, dark haired man sitting in the middle section about 4 or 5 rows back on the isle of the right side (facing the pulpit). Dr. Freeman was right in the middle of a sermon when this man started freaking out. He started screaming and his body totally straightened out while he was sitting in his chair. I can't remember if he fell out of his chair or not. Dr. Freeman started praying over him, and I can't remember if someone actually laid hands on him or not. It was about a 5 or 10 minute episode, before he was back to normal. As an aside to further identify this man, he was one of the people that started running around the building dancing during some of the songs. (If you remember that, you'll remember that people started running into each other as they rounded the corner.) I also think he is the man that wore a pair of yellow shorts to church one time with his dark, hairy legs showing. Dr. Freeman had to call him down for his dress.

That's my only experience. Maybe Micah and Wheeler remember this episode or others.

[micah (micah)]

unfortunatly I was too young to remember that episode, hut I can remember someone standing under the microphone (remember those duct tape squares?) singing "in toungues" and then suddenly starting to spin around in circles as he did so and was escorted out. I dont know if that was a demon or not but it was wierd and unusual. My father-in-law would remember more than I would, I know he had some strange stuff happen to him while a certian person (who ironically was considered a deliverence "minister") stayed at the home of his parents when he was young. as far as that person or any others that I know of, no one was delivered right there on the spot or anything like that. and also as far as miracles are concerned, I never saw any, I heard a few talked about but it seems to me they all occured back even before I was born (1978) So I dont know, and that is one of the reasons that I am searching for any good at all that I can point to and say "this is what a healthy church looks like" I honestly cannot make any sence out of it. That is the reason I found this board in the first place, just looking back on my upbringing and asking why? All I see from the remains of faith assembly is pain. You can say all you want about good doctrine and all the rest but look at the fruit, even the people that are still affiliated with it are doing nothing to save a lost and dying creation, its all about gaining more knowledge about the bible and the complex doctrines in which they believe and discrediting everyone else that does not agree with every jot and tittle (as steve hill would say) I find that to be repulsive. I have heard time and time again "its a strong word" and "some people cant handle a strong word so they look for a watered down version" which is absolutely true, but the reason that it is so strong is not because it is so full of truth, its because it is so full of exclusiveness. anyone that does not agree with your every statement is a danmed heretic. Whats up with that? study the pharisees, what did they do? what were they guilty of? trying to follow the holy law even to this point, God said to keep the sabbath holy and not work right? so they had to go to such extremes that they even came up with a certain number of steps that you could walk in one day before it was considered work. Talk about adding to the scriptures. But they started out just wanting to follow God the best they knew how, think about that, a group of people that simply tried to follow God to the point that they thought that they knew it all and had the upper hand in anything spiritual because of their "knowledge of the word" and just how closely they followed "its precepts" That is my memory of faith assembly,

what about yours?

[duncan (duncan)]

Preach on, Micah.

I agree with practically everything you just said. The strong Word and sound doctrine are extremely important. However, if you can't minister to people in love, then your not following the doctrine you say you believe. That's not to say that we need to water down the Word, or let worldly ways (such as all that Purpose Driven Church crap) infiltrate the church. It just means that we need to meet people where they are and show them love. While we are showing them love, they will be much more accepting of the doctrine. Otherwise, you run the risk of burning people out, like FA did, by saying that everyone should be at the same level in their faith.

My memories of Faith Assembly were very pleasant in the beginning (early to late 70's). By 1982 to 1984, things changed and, even though I was a kid, my stomach always felt like it was churning. I never quite had a peace and always wondered what was going to happen next. Was the media going to crash a church service? Was the police going to show up? Was someone else going to die? Was someone going to get kicked out of church? Etc, Etc, Etc. That's not the way the local church was meant to be.

Thanks for all the great info. Just don't be discouraged by your childhood, Micah. Take those experiences and use them to make you a better person. Use them to make you a better Christian and a better spouse/parent. If your like me, you at least got a good foundation in the Bible. Now take that foundation and continue to build on it the way that God meant for us to. Not the legalistic way that was so strong at FA.

Have a great day! I will be traveling for a few days, so I won't be able to post for a couple of days. I will check the board when I get back.

[micah (micah)]

why was jesus invited to the wedding party where he turned water into killer wine? I think it was because he was well liked, even sinners felt perfectly comfortable talking to him. and he lived wihtout sin, completely. I think this is very interesting, what kind of person can do that? certainly not one who thought or acted like he was better than everyone else, and if anyone had a right to be that way it was him, but he made himself available, even vulnerable. The outstanding thing about him was that he loved unconditionaly, no reserves no hang ups, no look at me the first human to never sin. I hope to live like that, I know how far from that I am, got a long way to go. thank god for his grace and mercy on me!!! And we can all agree that that was one vital element missing, But at the same time I know that they were saved and mostly just trying to follow God, and he looks at the heart so I can only learn from the mistakes of my parents and go from there. we as christians were never told to stay in a corn feild and learn as much about God as we possibly could, while knowledge is a good thing its not our purpose and goal, we are to be salt and light. Which is impossible when you are taught to not associate with unbelievers.
I just cant get over the exclussiveness factor, I dont see that in the life of christ at all, I think its wrong, and I think that the results, fruit if you will, is painfully evident. Even to some extent on this board. Go figure eh? I dont want to sound harsh but this is the truth as I see it, and sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. but I am just one of many, just puttin my 2 pennys in

[micah (micah)]

wow, that was insightfull. glad to hear that god is so concerned about what people are saying about copeland,

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

We will let the scriptures judge whether a man is a true or false prophet or heretic. I judge no man of my own accord.

Deuteronomy 18:22 *When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Isaiah 8:20 *To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 John 4:1 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

BTW this is a board to discuss Freeman, not Copeland. Go to the Copeland board to discuss about him.



(Message edited by mark1124 on March 17, 2005)

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Thanks for bringing the discussion back around to something that no one really cares to discuss anymore.

I don't know Copeland, I've never heard one of his sermons, and I really don't care. However, when I do get the urge to talk about him, I will be sure to let you know.

Thanks for keeping it real!

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Duncan,

See what I said about Five? He wants me to let it go and to drop it and be friends, but he doesn't want to drop it himself.

I know I got too much involved too, and I apologize for that. The real reason for this forum is to discuss the experiences you folks had under the ministry of Hobart Freeman. The Copeland stuff should go to that group. After all, there are many more people in that group that think he is a heretic than I do. More people will care there than anyone does here.

From here on out, I will discuss Bro. Freeman's ministry with anyone who wishes, pro or con. Let's get this ship steered back on course.

Mark

[micah (micah)]

how about a con? I have been trying to find the pro's and am coming up shorthanded as of yet. not that I havent found pro's, its just that the cons seem to outnumber them, the only pro is what my mom said, and that is this, she said that she learned to think for herself because freeman was always saying "go home and look it up for yourself" "go see if the bible agrees with what im saying" and that sort of stuff. I happen to be very close to people that go to brennamans church, and I see first hand how they view the world. This is why I have ben asking if anything good at all came out of it. It seems to me like everywhere I look I see people that have healed from it. so if it was so good why would so many people need to be healed after it was all over? Why do the people that still go to faith assembly seem to be so quick to judge and so uncaring? maybey mark you can help me with this, tell me that people who are going to your church are open and loving in the way that jesus was. I am not trying to attack you and what you believe, I am simply asking for you to tell me your side of the story and how you see things. I will be open and honest with you, I only want to understand where you are coming from, even if I ask questions that seem to be harsh, just remember, I am an adult and I can take it, even if you do the same to me, so please do, ask the harsh questions of me, but lets be adults and realize that just because I (or you) harshly question each other does NOT mean that we are conducting personal attacks. I just want to get to the bottom of what I have been feeling about the way that I was raised so I can get over it and move on with my life. thank you for any feedback, and if you would like to get away from this board and chat elsewhere we could do that

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Hi Micah

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you about your above post. I will respond soon. There are some things that I need to pray about as to what the Lord would have me to share. So I am not ignoring you.

I was just wondering, Micah...when you went to FA as a youngster, what did you expect church to be like? I have some thoughts along those lines.

When you went to church at a young age, I can understand how much fear there was...not from the teaching but from the uncertainties of what was going to happen next. I never had that experience, and unfortunately I have never experienced what you must have gone through. So it must have been pretty scary.

I would like you to keep in mind about one pro about FA....the teaching was very sound there. One reason Bro. Freeman was persecuted so much was because he came against the religious system.
But you must admit that the teaching was very solid, in spite of the teaching of not trusting in doctors or dress, etc.

If you study the theology tapes, the ethics tapes, the deeper life tapes, or the expositional tapes, you couldn't find better teaching on those subjects. I think the problem about clothes, TV, and other issues is more like an issue of holiness and being separated from the world and its ways versus legalism. Unfortunately, some cried legalism when they could not meet the scriptural standards.

Well, I have more to say as the Lord gives it. But I want you to know that I am here to minister or to help in any way possible.

Lord bless

Mark

[micah (micah)]

when I went to church as a child I thought every church on the face of the planet would have been the exact same way, untill I learned that every other church on the planet was going to hell because they were not our church. I am not sure where and when that change of thought happened but as a child that was the way that i thought. Why? i dunno, but i remember when jack farrol got up on a sunday morning and said something about everyone being decieved and being scared out of my wits because I thought I was going to hell, and the sunday morning that hobart was announced dead thinking that i was going to hell then too, just because he was dead. So there you go, who knows how a childs mind thinks and percieves things? I was about 5 when he died and i thought and reasoned like a 5 yr old would, (duh) I am not trying to say that all of his teachings were wrong, I am trying to say that as of today the fruit that I see is more bad than good, All across the board. It does not matter to me that he taught 3 good things when 6 bad things were left standing in the end. you shall know them by their fruit. so where is it? was there more good than bad? why did i always think that i was going to hell? if the doctrine was so incredibly sound how did so much chaos ensue? why do i have to keep asking so many dang questions? will it ever end? (hehe)
ok all for now......

[duncan (duncan)]

Micah,
Those were some pretty messed up times for the kids. I was almost 13 when Dr. Freeman died, and can remember my parents receiving a phone call that night. It seemed so weird, because my mom had just made him a cake that he liked just a few days earlier. In my 13-year old mind, I was sure that he would be raised from the dead. Then things began to fall apart. It was obvious to me, even at a young age, that people had been following a man and not the Bible. People were told to think for themselves, but had no idea how to do that when he died. The evidence is obvious in that the church began to fragment and dissolve.

I agree that a lot of the feelings I felt were the same as you. Especially around 1982 and beyond, my feelings were many times of fear. I was always afraid that the rapture was going to occur and that I was going to be left behind. I can remember looking out a window in school when I was in the 7th grade. It was stormy and dark outside, and I can remember, like it was yesterday, the sinking feeling in my stomach thinking that the world was about to end.

I had never been to another church, so I thought the same way as you that other churches were going to hell. It is my strong opinion that those kinds of thoughts should not be going through a child's mind.

As for some pros, I can only speak to my own life and experiences. The following statement is not meant to glorify myself, but to glorify God. I have found that I have an amazing knowledge of the Word as an adult. Especially when compared to other people at my current church. I have found that people have no idea what the Bible says about anything. For me, this is a huge pro, because I learned the Bible. Another pro is now being transferred to another generation. I now have children of my own, and I am teaching them as much of the Word as they can understand. On the flip side of that coin, I have learned how NOT to raise my children. I am not going to put them in the position of being expected to think and act like an adult. I am sending them to Sunday School, so they can learn the Bible at a level they can understand. I will not shelter them from the world, but will teach them to be righteous in an evil world.

The bottom line is that many of my positives involve making lemonade from lemons. I have built on a strong Biblical foundation, but have learned (hopefully) from the many mistakes that were made at FA. I think you are correct in your statement that the cons outweighed the pros. The question for us now is this: How can we take our childhood experiences and learn from them to become better adult Christians? As hard as it may seem, we can't dwell on the negative, because we will never be able to change the past. We can only study the Word for ourselves and then build on what we know was right.
I don't know if any of this made sense, but I felt compelled to write it. Have a great day.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Since it does matter what I want to discuss, I will not discuss Copeland any more.

I will, however, speak to a few of your other points.

The early years of FA were not based on fear. I remember the mid-to-late 70's were a great time. The fellowship was in a growth stage and people were hungry for the Word. For me (and the rest of my family), the fear began to set in around 1981 or 1982 and lasted until we moved away.

I will say that some of that fear came from the teachings of Dr. Freeman. Do you remember the sermon "The Bottom Line"? I recently borrowed that tape and listened to it again as an adult. The implication from Dr. Freeman was that no one was teaching the true Word but FA. It was defintely implied that you were in spiritual danger if you didn't heed his words. At the end of the sermon, people flocked to the stage because they were scared that they were going to hell. My older brother came home and had a talk with my father, because he was scared.

I also lay a lot of "fear-mongering" on the people. It was like you were living in a fish bowl, and everyone was watching your moves. As a youth boy, I liked to talk to girls. I can remember being sweet on Jim Oswalt's daughter and having to hide just to talk to her, or people would tell our parents that we were talking to someone of the opposite sex.

That's the kind of fear I'm talking about. And in the 80's, it was all over the place.

As I've said, I totally agree with the Biblical Theology that was taught, such as the triune nature of God, Predestination and election, Sactification, Justification, Premillinalism, the attributes of God, etc.

When the teaching turned to throwing away my running shoes, women having to wear dresses, people going on a date, going to doctors or dentists, associating with people outside of the church, etc. - that's when it got off track and crazy.

I also agree with your statements regarding love. However, be careful not to through the baby out with the bath water when it comes to doctrine and theology. Read Acts 2:42. It states that in the formation of the early church that the people devoted themselves to the doctrine of the apostles first, then to fellowship. We need to make sure our foundation is grounded in the Word, then we can let our love show.

Finally, you made a statement about a woman pastor in Tennessee. Unless she is the pastor of an all-woman congregation, then I can say without hesitation and with 100% confidence that she is out of the will of God and is in direct contradiction to the Word of God. Anyone who could say otherwise has never read the Bible.

Thanks for the dialogue.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

I'm new to this discussion and have found it to be very interesting reading. My parents were attending FA when I was born so I had never been to any other church in my life until after Hobart Freeman died. We left the church in 86 or 87 I don't remember exactly when but I have never really been comfortable in any church since. I struggle with what to believe and what not to believe. I like many of the others that have posted lived with a first class ticket to Hell for several years after leaving home. I have since changed most of my ways, but still struggle with what is right and what is wrong. My family has been on both sides of the Faith Healing issue. My mother had rheumetoid arthritis as a young women and was prayed for at FA and was healed and has not had any symptoms of it since, she had been seeing the medical profession before and they had not been able to do anything for her. So I have seen a case where someone I knew was healed. Now on the other hand my little brother died of a respiratory infection some years later, some years later my little sister came down with diabetes and my parents did and continue to use medical treatment for her. I can't answer why it worked in some instances and others it didn't. In recent years I have done a great deal of research on FA to see what really happened, and I get varying opinions. But I get a kick out of the several of you in this board who keep going back and forth. I do think some of the teaching in the church put a lot of us younger generation at a disadvantage, most believed that the Lord was going to return real soon and did very little if any planning for the future. I do value the strong Christian background that I received from growing up in FA. The thing I miss most about FA was the worship services, I can remember praising the lord for an hour every Sunday morning.

God Bless

[duncan (duncan)]

Cougar,
Welcome to this discussion. If the number in your handle is the year you were born, then we are the same age. Who knows - we may have hung out.

I agree with you about the worship services. Everything was so spontaneous. The song leader would let the Holy Spirit lead him. It did get a little crazy around 83 and 84. That's when people started dancing in the isles and running around the church. I also liked the testimony time. The church I go to now doesn't have a time for testimonies, and I miss it. It was nice to hear people stand up and tell what God was doing in their lives.

It sounds like you drifted in your faith once you became an adult just like every other kid I know that grew up there. It seems that we all had to go and find out about the world for ourselves. I did the same thing in college. I'm thankful, as it sounds like you are too, that we had a solid foundation.

It's a pleasure to have another "face" on this board. Have a blessed day!

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Actually I was born in 76 so I'm a little younger than you(Duncan), but we still may have known each other. My grandpa was Gene Sarber who preached occasionally. I used to run around with Gary Wilson's kids Josh &amp; Jesse and Joyce Miner's son Jothan. I haven't seen either of them in years. One of the issues I really struggled with after leaving the church was that I didn't have any friends outside of the church and once we left the church we weren't allowed to associate with the friends we had at FA and they weren't allowed to associate with us. So I have very few childhood friends left. I'm not bitter about anything that happened at FA, and I didn't really think my childhood was all that bad until everyone in the world told me it was. I have children of my own now and I really struggle with what to and what not to teach them. I agree with one of the other poster's I think things starting to go in the wrong direction when we were being told that we couldn't have all these different toys because they had occult backgrounds, whether they did or not I don't know. But these are a few of the items that I remember weren't allowed hopefully somebody in this board can shed some light on why they weren't permitted.

Strawberry Shortcake Dolls-I remember my sister throwing away all her shortcake dolls

Adidas Shoes-I guess homosexuals were wearing them?

Nike Shoes-because they were named after a Greek God?

Insurance-weren't supposed to carry any kind of insurance unless required by law(costly lesson I learned on that one)

Rubiks Cubes-?

Any clothes with advertising or writing on them(I remember my grandfather used to get free seed corn hats and he would remove the emblem from the hat)

Dice of any kind-I remember as kids we would have board games with dice in them and my parents would throw away the dice and buy spinners instead?

Participating in any organized sports-I believe the reason was that you weren't supposed to associate with unbelievers and that it would make you competitive. I had 3 brothers and we all played sports at home and I have never played anyone that is as competitive as we were.

I also remember getting in trouble when my brother died for saying anything about it to people outside the church and I remember thinking if there is nothing wrong with what we believe why is it such a secret.

Does anyone remember hospital's being called the Devil's Palace or maybe that's my imagination. For the longest time as a kid I was scared of hospitals and doctors. I now have a good friend who is a christian and a doctor. We have had several chats on the issue of Faith Healing.

I do remember a lot of good things as well from the church as it seems most people who have posted don't. I remember the comradery, we moved several times in my childhood and I always remember people coming from the church to help, and I remember going and helping people as well. When my mom had a baby there were always women from the church that brought meals. I grew up in a large family due to the teaching of FA and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I also remember the fellowships we would have at the church once a year and everyone would bring in food those were good times.

I also agree with the preaching on staying out of debt, there is a good christian talk show host on today named Dave Ramsey that has helped hundreds of people get out of debt based on the same principles.

On another note in regards to having children at home with a midwife my parents had 8 kids 4 born in the hospital and 4 born at home, all were born healthy. I personally have no desire to learn how to deliver children so my kids have been born in the hospital.

About a year ago I drove out to FA just to see where it was and if it was still there, it brought back lots of memories. I'm glad that there are many of us in the younger generation that are discussing it.

Have a great day

[duncan (duncan)]

Cougar,
That was a great post. I remember some of the names that you mentioned, but didn't know any of them personally. The one thing I do remember was Gary Wilson's preaching. He would always have about 25 points to his sermon and they would always last about 2 hours. My family used to joke about it.

My little group used to hang out on the steps going up to the stage. My group included Harry Albright's son (we called him "chicken-wing"), Jay Decker and Scott Reed. I also played with Bobby Deal, who lived across the street from us in Don Nei's trailer park that was a few miles from FA. Also, Tammy Oswalt was my girlfriend until I moved in 1986.

I remember a lot of the items you mentioned, as well. Don't forget about any product that had the name "devil" in it - like Red Devil or Devil's food cake. I don't remember anything about dolls. As for the rubik's cube, I had one. I had totally forgotten about the logo tee-shirts. If you will remember, they were called "notice-me-tee shirts."

Do you remember all the girls wearing gouchos/culottes, because they were the closest thing to pants that they could wear?

I also fell victim to not being able to play sports. My parents did let me play the trumpet in the band for a couple of months until we started practicing Christmas songs. Then I had to drop out.

My one outlet as a child was the radio. I used to take a radio into my closet and listen for hours. Even to this day, I still get emotional when I hear certain 80's songs on the radio, because it reminds me of my childhood.

Like you, I too have children. The only thing I can tell you is to teach them the Word as early as possible. It's amazing how much mine have soaked it up.

Thanks for bringing back so many good memories. Like you said, I also thought I had a pretty good childhood. Sure, there were some screwed up times and times when I was scared of something happening, but I still had a lot of good times. I really didn't need to be watching TV anyway(ha ha).

Have a blessed day!

[micah (micah)]

good to see some new blood coming to the board!! welcome to the ongoing and sometimes mindless intellectual intercourse cougarxr72. I hope you enjoy yourself!! I have found that in talking to ex-fa'ers we all have one thing in common with each other, and that is the story of how we have moved on. I know of some that want nothing to do with god because of it and some that have found healing and are still close to God, but we have all moved on.
I often wonder how someone can go so wrong in just wanting to know and learn about god and live a life of sacrifce to the point of denial of reality. I dont know why but that just gets me in a big way. how so many good intentions turned into so many disasters. it doesnt seem right, I guess im trying to move on but I have to face this first and im afraid that im asking questions that have no answer.

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Cougar,

Be very careful of fivefoldprophet. He has been a trouble maker for me and this list for quite some time. Please do not get entangled in any discussion with him.

Duncan and Micah are two good people to talk to. I am sure you will have a lot to share with each other. Personally I am happy to see you here...having new blood in this group. Just don't pay attention to Fivefoldprophet. Word to the wise is sufficient.

Mark Scaliotti

[fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)]

Mark
I forgive you and love you in Jesus name.

its better to be kind with others than condemn
other churches and call the wrong people heretics.


Hello Cougar
Welcome to the board ,I was part of FA
when I was young (out of HS)
I tried to get back with them a couple years ago
when I saw the current FA room on paltalk
I had a lot of respect for some of Freeman’s teaching
but left because I found the same unloving attitude they had back then …..
I like both Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn and it strikes a nerve with most FA people.
I believe Jesus is Lord and Loves people and feed the multitudes instead of
condemning everyone.


(Message edited by fivefoldprophet on March 26, 2005)

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Cougar and others,

Fivefold tried to get back with us but he started trouble with me in my Paltalk room and that was the end of the relationship...all because he thought I supported the war in Iraq.

Now he has gone and supported the JDS heretics.

As we remember the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, all I can say is thank God Jesus did NOT die spiritually.

Anyway, Cougar, if you are interested in listening to Bro. Freeman's teachings again, let me know. There are some Paltalk rooms that play his tapes, including mine. Let me know and I can show you how. If not, then that's OK. God bless you, brother.

BTW...the reason why it "strikes a nerve" that Fivefold like Copeland and Hinn is because they both teach false doctrines that have been exposed by Brother Freeman, among others, who accurately refuted their false teachings.

Mark

(Message edited by mark1124 on March 27, 2005)

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

I suppose you would have prophesied something good about me if I did repent. That is spiritual witchcraft and I will have no part of it, in Jesus name.

I suppose if I renounce Freeman that I will not be under judgment too right? LOL

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

The bickering and the condemning on this site really gets old. In my opinion the quoting scripture and pointing out where people are wrong turns more people away from Christ than to Christ. Some of my family that went to FA were always criticizing people's lifestyles by quoting scripture and as a result of that I feel many of these people they wre criticizing want nothing to do with God or church. I understand that if you feel God has something that he wants you to say to someone then you should say it but I also believe that God wants you to say it out of love not out of condemnation remember the Bible says that we are not to judge others. In regards to Copeland and Benny Hinn and whomever else you guys listen to or follow that's fine. As far as I'm concerned what you decide to believe and which minister you decide to listen to is between you and God. In regards to condemning all other churches, this condemnation and belief that FA was the only church that had the light has caused many problems for people like myself in pursueing other churches since the demise of FA. FA had a lot more light than most churches did at the time, but that doesn't give us the authority to condemn all other churches. One of the biggest problems that I had with FA was being discouraged to associate with people outside the church, Jesus associated with the misfits(or whatever you want to call them) time and time again. I think we are to live our lives setting a good example and that good example I believe draws other people to want to be more like you. Thanks to Mark1124 for the heads up on the paltalk. I think my parents still have a majority of the tapes. I'm glad to see the J.Brenneman is coverting many of the messages to a digitized format so that I can play them in my MP3 player. I am at a point in my life where I am trying to figure out what I believe and what I don't believe, deep down I want to believe what we were taught at FA because most of it is grounded in scripture. So please lets stop the name calling and get back to a clean open discussion of FA.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

I don't believe that the teaching was wrong, maybe how it was taught. Again I was young when I went to FA so I am recollecting from memory what went on. I believe much of the condemnation and lack of love came from the congregation not necessarily Hobart Freeman. I don't ever recall meeting the man, so I can't honestly say whether or not he was compassionate or not. I did read somewhere that he had a grandchild die and didn't attend the funeral, I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is that concerns me greatly. In regards to Hobart Freeman being more enlightened or having more light however you want to see it, I don't think that anyone who attended FA can deny that God provided FA with much more light than mainstream religion. I'm not saying that in condemnation, but what we were taught in theology and scripture was at a greater level than you will receive in mainstream churches. In regards to condemnation, I have always disagreed with the condemning of others and automatically assuming that someone is demon possessed. Throughout the NT there are only a few instances that I can recall where demons were cast out. Much of the NT is dedicated to showing the love that Jesus had for others and the message that he was preaching. I guess I need to go back and relisten to some of the messages. I know I have been rambling FiveFold but basically I agree with you on the condemnation issue and the lack of love. But I don't feel that necessarily makes the message wrong. Different people need to be taught different ways. I don't know if you ever watch baseball or not, but most catchers will tell you that the key to become a good handler of pitchers is to learn how they respond to criticism, some have to be coddled, some just need a reminder and some need to be yelled at. I think this example applies to speaking with non christians, not everybody responds to the same method. God Bless and have a good week.

[duncan (duncan)]

Good morning, All.

I just discovered that if you have Factnet email you the posts, you can see the original thoughts and words of people before they have a chance to edit or remove their remarks. It can sometimes be interesting.

Cougar - The more I read of your posts, the more I see that we have in common. We all have to make up our minds for ourselves. It doesn't matter what Five says or what Mark says. We are sitting at the grown-up table now, and can think for ourselves. Like you, I have gone back as an adult and listened to many tapes (and MP3s) of Dr. Freeman. There is some stuff on there that I do not agree with, but there is also a lot more stuff in which I do agree. Unlike some people years ago, I do not take everything Dr. Freeman said as gospel.

Ministers are not perfect. No human can ever be perfect and right on every subject. As I type this, I wonder if Five agrees with everything that Copeland has said? Surely there has to be a few things in which he has a different opinion. On the other side of that coin, I am sure that there are things in which Mark disagrees with Dr. Freeman.

That is why it is up to us to do as the Word says and study to show ourselves approved - A worker who needs not be ashamed and one who is able to rightly divide the word of truth. Men come and go, but the Word of God will never change.

My parents have struggled to deal with this in the post FA years. My father doesn't even go anywhere, because he can't find a place where he agrees with everything. My mother finally started going to church with me a few years ago. She finally realized that she could get the true Word, even if the church celebrated Christmas or Easter. She may not like it when the pastor uses the name Jehovah instead of Yahweh, but she understands what he means. The point is, she knows what she believes and isn't going to condemn someone if they aren't as "enlightened" as she is.

One final note regarding judging - many people like to throw around the thought that we are not to judge others. However, if you read I Cor 5: 9-13, you will find that we are to judge those who call themselves brothers (those inside the church). Paul states that we are not to judge only those outside the church, because God will judge them.

Just a few thoughts as we start out the week! Have a great one, everybody!

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Michael,

I was watching your hero Copeland yesterday and he was preaching your favorite heresy yesterday...the JDS heresy. Once again, he spewed out his venom that Jesus defeated Satan in the pit of hell. Too bad that the Bible contradicts him in that Jesus defeated Satan ON THE CROSS, not hell.

I will take anything that Freeman has to say over against Copeland anyday. At least Freeman was right in line with scripture. Not like Copeland, who devises his teachings out of his own heart. At least Freeman studied the word. Copeland imagined his teachings.

If they speak not according to the word of God, they have no light in them.

Maybe when Copeland preaches according to the word of God will I stop speaking against the heresy that comes forth out of his heart.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Fivefold, I'm not going to start an arguement with someone that can't keep an open mind about the discussion. I don't like the fact that you want to pick and choose quotes out of an entire post and use them to support your viewpoint. I never said that it was all the congregation's fault I said that "much of the lack of love and condemnation came from the congregation". I can say that because the condemnation and lack of love I personally experienced(the small amount there was) came from members of the congregation I can attest to that and like I said before I never met Dr. Freeman so I can't honestly say whether or not he had a lack of compassion or was not a loving individual, much of the information that I've heard about Dr. Freeman not being compassionate is hearsay, if you can personally testify that he was cruel or uncompassionate to you then you have a point. I'm deeply concerned that 100+ people died, I starting posting on this site to try and discover for myself what happened, not get into meaningless arguements with people that don't want to have an open discussion, if this continues I'll leave the chat room. At the end of my post I also said that different people need to be taught in different methods stating that I disagree with the way that the message was taught. And again like I have said in many of my posts, I was a kid at the time I attended FA so I am recalling things from my memory. I have never said that I believe that you should follow everything that Dr. Freeman said, what I said was just because a message is presented without love or compassion doesn't necessarily make the message wrong. I should have said the "content of the message". I have also said many times that I disagree with the legalism of FA in regards to clothes, not going to college, etc. I didn't think that I needed to reiterate every single point that I have previously made in every new point, I would assume that someone that has been following the discussion could remember or would refer to previous postings to follow the points. As far as watching their children die, when my brother died we weren't all standing around in a circle watching him die, we were praying(if you want to call praying doing nothing then God have mercy on your soul). So I personally felt the affects of a child dying under this teaching so DON'T EVER IMPLY THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT LITTLE CHILDREN DYING, but I challenge you to provide me with a scripture that says God heals through doctors(and I'm not saying that he doesn't use doctors) and that you shouldn't pray for the sick. Read James 5:13-16 that was one of the scriptures that Dr. Freeman referrred to frequently. I have a strong desire to go back to church and strengthen my relationship with God but like I've said before I'm struggling with what was taught at FA is right and what is wrong. It is people like you that have kept me away from church for many years because just like many at FA your viewpoint is the only viewpoint and anyone that wants to question or think otherwise is wrong. It really gets old when someone disagrees with you the first thing that you say is I forgive you, like they've sinned for disagreeing with you. I hope that we can move onto a more meaningful conversation if not so long and God Bless.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Duncan,

I agree with much of what you've said but I do have one point of contention. The scripture you quote in your previous post to me( I Cor 5: 9-13). The judging that the scripture refers to I believe is to those who are living in utter sin, sexually immoral, drunkards, idolatry, greed, etc. I don't think it refers to judging someone because they are wearing adidas shoes or enjoying a piece of devil's food cake. Just my take.

God Bless and have a great day

[duncan (duncan)]

Cougar,
Thanks for disagreeing with me in a very rational way. It's a nice change. To clarify my point, I didn't mean to suggest judging people because of outward appearances. My point was that we are to judge any sinful lifestyle in a Christian's life. The problem we run into, however, is when we start saying it's a sin to wear logo t-shirts, adidas, etc.

Thanks for allowing me to explain. I hope you have a blessed day!

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
It's starting to sound like you're getting paranoid! No where in my previous post did I have a negative tone about you. Everyone on this board has edited their posts at one time or another, with the exception of Cougar and me. To assume that I was writing about you tells me that your conscience is bothering you. You also said that you thought I implied that you were not at the grown-up table. That is the opposite from what I meant. I meant that Cougar, Micah and I were just children while at FA. As such, we did what we were told. We are now adults and able to research the scriptures for ourselves. Believe it or not, this board does not revolve around you.

As for your comment about forgiving me, I agree with Cougar. I was 100% correct, and as such, I did nothing, nor did I say anything, that would require anyone to forgive me. When you make comments like that, it gives off this false piety that broadcasts to the rest of the board that you think you are better than everyone else and that you are willing to stoop down to our level, because we can't come up to yours.

Finally, the final quote that I shouldn't even respond to, but I can't help myself, is where you state you are amazed that I won't talk about Copeland anymore, but I did. If you will check my post again, you will see that I refered to his name in the context of being a minister. I did not discuss him or any of his teachings.

I apologize to the board for getting sucked into this type of discussion where I have to spend an entire post clarifing my remarks. In the future, I will try to avoid doing this on such a broad basis.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Quote1

” Cougar.
Your intellectually dishonest…
I will quote you again;
(basically I agree with you on the condemnation issue and the lack of love. But I don't feel that necessarily makes the message wrong.)
Here you are stating the message is not necessarily the problem ,its plain English… “

Response:
I’m not sure what you mean by intellectually dishonest? In my last post I rephrased that statement to say “content of the message” and then challenged you to provide me with scripture that refutes that praying for healing is not scriptural. And when I say message I am referring to everything that was taught not just Faith Healing. I have said repeatedly that I don’t agree with everything that was taught at FA. I began to post in this discussion to see if anyone else could refute the Faith Healing doctrine with scripture as well as other points of contention that I had with the message at FA. Many posters want to throw blame around but no one has yet to refute the scriptural basis of the message.

Quote 2http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gifCougar who are you trying con? condemnation and a lack of love and death dose not necessarily makes the message wrong? .Who are you kidding?)

I’m not trying to con anyone, my point again is that no one including yourself has been able to refute the scriptural basis of what was taught in regards to faith healing. So your point is that anything taught in love is true and should be believed regardless of scriptural basis just because I feel good when a preacher preaches means that it is the truth? And again I would like to discuss more than Faith Healing when I refer to the message, there are 100’s of messages on tape by Dr. Freeman that are not on Faith Healing.

Quote 3”Here you state you felt the effects of a Child dieing “your own brother” “
Now you blame me for you not returning to faith assembly or some other church ,saying people like me have kept you away…………I said its wrong to follow a teaching that kills children and it offended you! Amazing!
are you convicted over your brother? because you still think Freeman is the only true message?

Response:
I did feel the effects of my brother dying, and I’m troubled by his death to this day, the confusion or struggle that I face why did he die and your answer is that he died because Dr. Freeman taught a message of Faith Healing(which was based on scripture) and he died because the message wasn’t taught out of love. My Grandma died at the age of 62 of cancer and had attended FA but did see the medical profession and still died. Did they not treat her with love? Thousands of people die from medical malpractice every year and yet people still return to the doctor’s thousands of people have died from prescription drugs but people still consume them everyday. There was a well known actress age 30 some that recently died of pneumonia(a treatable disease) twice was misdiagnosed by the medical profession and died) But if they would have treated her with love she would have been healed. I guess my point is the teaching itself didn’t kill anyone it was the application of the teaching. I have never said that Freeman is the only true message, I have said I believe in nearly all of my posts that I didn’t agree with everything that was taught at FA or by Dr. Freeman. I am not offended by your statements, I have simply requested that you back up your statements with scripture and to this point you have not been able to.

Quote 4;
It is people like you that have kept me away from church for many years because just like many at FA your viewpoint is the only viewpoint

My view point is children dieing needlessly is wrong and your offended! because you say its not necessarily the message that is wrong
Cougar what would your brother have to say if he could talk now,, would have he chose life instead of Freeman’s message. Would your brother think your family really Loved Him or they were following Freeman’s message? a message that was not LOVE! When you Cougar say Freeman’s message was not necessarily the fault ,“its amazing” Its proof that religious spirits blind peoples eyes,,, you watched your own brother die And didn’t have enough love in you to see the teaching did it,,,,,, and Freeman is at fault!
Now you want to return to FA ? Hey Cougar you say it gets really old? How long have you been around? You say I think people are sinning if they disagree with me?

Response:
I don’t appreciate being accused of having a religious spirit I am in search of some answers for myself. I have had family members die in medical care and I have also had family members die that were prayed for. Now should I go around spouting that the medical profession kills because they weren’t able to heal my relatives? I never said that I wanted to return to FA either. I simply said that “people like you” that want to dictate their ideas upon me much like what happened at FA have caused me to turn away from church and that is what you are doing, you criticize me, don’t answer my questions and do it all under the umbrella of a prophesy or that God told you to say something. Most of your posts have not been out of love. You refuse to even discuss the possibility that God heals through prayer and you can’t provide scripture that says God doesn’t heal through prayer. I’m sure that my brother would have wanted to live as well as my grandmother as well as my family would have wanted him to also.

Quote5:
It really gets old when someone disagrees with you the first thing that you say is I forgive you, like they've sinned for disagreeing with you. I hope that we can move onto a more meaningful conversation if not so long and God Bless.
WOW because I say killing Children is wrong and FA doctrine did it you accuse me of this??? What’s a meaningful conversation with you,, ??? Oh its not Freeman’s fault those Children died! It was the congregations fault ,, so now we can get back into the Faith message and follow Freeman right? we can move onto a more meaningful conversation Like Freeman’s doctrine is truth its just the tennis shoes and little legalistic things that got off! And how wounded you FA children were because you didn’t have the fun things other kids had to do!
Hog wash!

Response:
My point about meaningful conversation is that you have done nothing to back up your statements. I can sit here all day and spout out how you have this spirit and that spirit and this person is at fault and that person is at fault, but I didn’t come to this site to lay blame on Dr. Freeman or FA as a whole, I came to have a discussion with people who attended there to get their take on where the doctrine went wrong and all you want to do is blame people, praise Copeland and accuse people of having various spirits. I have never complained about not having anything fun to do as a kid, I was trying to find the basis in why certain things were wrong. I had a great childhood and didn’t realize that I had missed anything until everyone else told me I did. I attended FA for 10-12 years of my life and Faith Healing was a component of Dr. Freeman’s message but there was a lot more that he taught as well. This component is the one that gets discussed the most due to the deaths. If you do a search on OT Theology his texts still come up as good references, but I suppose we should throw all of those out too. All you want to discuss is the topic of Faith Healing and you would follow my posts I said very early that I don’t know why it worked in some instances and other it didn’t. I have seen cases in my family where people were healed by prayer so am I supposed to believe that their healing was a figment of my imagination it was some that a seducing religious spirit instilled in me? I’m looking for answers not looking to place blame. There was a lot of scripture and biblical teaching that I received at FA, that I wouldn’t have received otherwise.
Lastly my point in regards to you saying I forgive you is simply this, Duncan never mentioned your name in the post and what he said was just his commentary. To my recollection of the Bible nothing he did or said required you to forgive him especially since his comment was not directed at you or to you. I may not have been an active poster on this site as long as you have but I have followed it and have read nearly all of the posts on the site.

In conclusion regardless of what you believe or don’t believe about Dr. Freeman, I for one am not going to spend the rest of my life in bitterness and anger over what is in the past. The death of my brother will always be a hurt that can’t be healed. I’m sorry that I am no longer going to post due to the nature of the posts presented by other posters. I came to this site with an open mind looking for answers and trying to find out where FA went wrong. Duncan if you are interested in carrying on a discussion via email, let me know and I will get in contact with you. God Bless

}

[duncan (duncan)]

Cougar,
I ask that you not leave this discussion board because of one person. I am extremely interested in what you have to say and would love to hear more.

Michael,
First of all, I love Jesus with all of my heart. I owe everything to Him because of what he finished on the cross. I could not pay my debt, so he paid it for me on the cross.

Secondly, I have never lied on this board. Along those same lines, I have never modified one of my posts, because I am not ashamed of what I have said. I have also never deleted one of my posts to try to appear "holier than thou." Everyone is welcome to read my posts since my first one on
January 25.

Thirdly, to say that that I am one of those "FA people" shows extreme ignorance. As I have stated before, I have not set foot in FA since 1986.

Fourth, I came to this board by accident to see what former FA people had to say. I had a good childhood and have fond memories. I occasionally like to think on those old memories.

Fifth, I am extremely grounded in the Word and am confident in my beliefs. God has given me a desire to know the Word, and that is why I study. I can't be offended by anything people say.

Sixth, when I first came on this board, I thoughtyou had some good ideas. I didn't agree with everything you said, but I tried my best to respect your opinion and respect the ministers that you held in high regard. However, you have recently seemed irrational in your rantings. You have either misrepresented things people have said, or made statements that are completely false and can be proven as false by looking at previous posts. I am not sure what your point is, but it doesn't seem to be endearing people to you.

Seventh, my father is/was never a "fivefold" minister, as I do not believe there is such a thing. My father was a one-fold minister - he had/has the gift of teaching.

Eighth, are you implying by your "prophecy" that my days will be shortened because I speak the truth of the scriptures? I don't think I will be thirsty, because I am currently drinking at the fountain of living waters.

That's about all I can come up with for now.

[duncan (duncan)]

Cougar,
Evidentally, we posted our messages at about the same time. If you are truly set on not posting again, then I would love to continue via email. My email address is cduncan@amsouth.com.

Thanks.

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Cougar, my sentiment with Duncan. Please email me at m.scaliotti@comcast.net and we can continue this away from the rantings and prophesy of Michael Markley that he likes to quote to everyone who disagrees with him.

I would like to continue to fellowship with you, except not here.

Mark

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Duncan,

Don't feel so bad about Michael's prophecy. He prophecied the same thing against me. Good thing we don't have to fear false prophets.

[micah (micah)]

yippeeeeee sounds like things are hoppin!! I have been out of town for a while and am just getting caught up on the posts. I am so frustrated to see that someone in the same position as myself (trying to make heads or tails about my past) coming to a place like this and not finding any help whatsoever from it. and we have the balls to call ourselves christians aka "like christ"? And to top it off, the number one complainer about how hobarts message was so full of no love turns out to be the same guy that is running legitimate people (like cougar) off the board? whats up with you mr. fivefoldwhatever? I have seen from you firsthand how nice you can be when you think I agree with you and how quickly you change when you think that I disagree, even to the point of prophesying judgement on people. That sounds a bit familiar, hmmmmmmmm, where have I encountered that before? Oh ya I remember, I think it was in a church that I was raised in once. So whats up mr 5? how come you talk about love soooo much and how it was sooooo lacking in fa and then turn and attack someone who asks legit questions when you think that he is agreeing with hobarts teachings? You can obviously see how effective you are, with your love and compassion boiling over to the point where people cant even talk to you anymore, wow, so much like jesus. I cannot believe that you harp on the lack of love so much and turn around and attack the first person that has a different veiwpoint, that makes no sence to me at all. And dont go saying that you dont recieve my spirit and all that other jargon, I am calling you out, man to man, I want to know where you are coming from. Because the way I see it, the only ones you love are the ones that 100% agree with you. was that jesus? did he only wash the feet of those who agreed with him?

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Micah,

Amen to the above post. I warned you about 5. I have had to deal with him for the last two years. I said that he had a witchcraft spirit. All that is is a controlling spirit. I warned you folks not to get involved with him. Look what he is doing...prophesying judgment against us if we disagree with him. And it is the same prophesy, if you notice. If you check the Kenneth Copeland group, he uses the same prophesy

I don't 100% agree with what people are saying about Bro. Freeman and I know that there are those who don't agree 100% with me, but that's your priviledge. You will not get a threatening prophesy of judgment out of me. At least we are mature enough to discuss our differences and you will not get a "Thus saith the Lord" from me, unless the Lord does say something to me to share with this group, unlike 5 where his prophesies comes from his own spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

Fivefoldfalseprophet talks so much about love, but the love that he talks about is a conditional love if everyone agrees with him. But Jesus' love is unconditional, regardless. So it appears to me that the love that Five, aka Michael Markley, has to offer is not the love of Christ because the love of Christ is unconditional.

Fear not false prophets Micah, Duncan or anyone else. Since 5 likes to prophesy, we have the scriptural right to judge the prophesy.

And I thought I was the only guilty one that stokes the fires in this group. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

God bless



(Message edited by mark1124 on April 02, 2005)

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Hi Cougar,

I got your email and thanks. No you did not say anything that offended me. I will get back to you soon.

God bless and have a great week.

Mark

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

And the mighty false prophet speaketh again

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

Death by Medical Science

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2003/10/29/medical_system_is_leading_cause_of_death_and_injur y_in_us.htm

Looks like medical science has lost more to their medical malpractice than Freeman did by his teaching.

I will no longer discuss this with anyone. Like cougar, I feel like my head is bouncing against a wall. You can live in your unbelief and false prophecies with your false teachers like Copeland. Be my guest

[healed (healed)]

Some of you people have a case of extreme hard headness, naiveness or something. I mean come on mark1124, you post that reference to "Death by Medical Science", just like Cougar, defending yours or Freemans teaching in faith healing. Of course more people have died from medical malpractice than did from following Freeman...lol. How many people have been going to the doctors over time? Freemans congregation was only 2500 or so at its peak, millions of people have sought out medical treatment over time. Of course there will be instances of malpractices ect. You dont just disqualify the whole idea of seeking out medical treatment because of some malpractice that has been documented! The statistics would clearly show a higher cure rate for illnesses like broken bones or infections for people that sought medical treatment in contrast to those who went untreated under Freeman. If I am bitten by a copperhead snake or a black widow spider, statistics and common sense tell me that my chances of surving by getting medical treatmen are greater than by letting a Freemanite lay hands on me. This is no brainer stuff, why are you so hard headed? you are chosing to see only what you want to see in order to defend what you belive.

[tomax7 (tomax7)]

Well good to see the discussion still going on about FA. It's been 21 years since Dr. Freeman passed away.

I wish we had the Internet back in the '70's, might have cleared a lot of misconception and exposed a lot of sprititual pride and deception that crept into the movement.

Put it this way, Faith Assembly was a move of God. We just screwed it up.

Same could be said of early Christians, hiding in caves and such and dying for their faith. Just because we're not popular or just because we don't "toe the line" like the rest of churches doesn't mean we're a cult.

Yes, babies died. Yes Mothers died. YES many died who could have lived. I'm not negating the horrible things that took place, but remember the mind set was to please God and the best way we knew was to follow what we felt was truth.

Show me someone today who is taking a stand for truth? Is there anyone who speaks out against homosexuality (not homosexuals), speak out against being unequally yolked with the world.

The Bible says in the last days men will seek the truth and not find it. Many will wander from the East to the North and not find it. Many will "die of spiritual starvation". I believe we are in that time.

Like the Laidecian church, we are rich and think we need nothing, but are really poor, blind, and naked.

Yes, errors and pride did cause Faith Assembly to fall. Yes we could be rightfully branded as a cult, and yes we could be guilty of ruining the lives of many a teenager back then.

So what can we say or do to make amends? Say "I'm sorry?", not from reading the bitterness some (maybe rightfully) posted.

But then agian Jesus forgave murders, liers, drunkards, and thieves, will these posters forgive us?

I dare not say so, which leads me to say they are just as guilty now as we were in ignorance.

The difference is we were ignorant, these posters aren't.

So instead of ministering grace to those of us hurting inside of WHAT WE COULD HAVE BEEN, you condemn Dr. Freeman and those of us who followed his teachings.

If it were not God using Dr. Freeman, I don't know where I'd be today. Maybe better, maybe worse, but the fact is I am here because of God's grace.

So to those of you who are posting hatred and bitterness, check your hearts. Is not the watchman guilty of sleeping if the town is taken?

THen you too are guilty in letting bitterness creep into your hearts and take root.

I too was very bitter but have learned the Blood of Jesus is more than a song. It cleanses to the very depth of your soul. Let all bitterness and malace be put away and move on.

GOd is still faithful.

I have seen and heard both sides of this debate, even post them on my site, http://tomax7.com/thoughts/faith_assembly.htm so it isnt' like I'm ignoring the error and pride that happened at Faith Assembly. But what I do say is I wouldn't trade what I learned and experienced at Faith Assembly for the world.

And this coming 21 years after the fact.

cheers
Tom
www.tomax7.com (http://www.tomax7.com)

[healed (healed)]

Sure Dave, I could contribute or share, but I will remain anonymous. FA did accepte the sick and infirmed because the message appealed to these type of people. As for Tomax, cougar and the others, they found something at FA that perhaps is hard to find at other places, the sense of belonging ect. The problem is that kids had no choice but to do as they were told. Of course Tomax and his group will defend it or still be nostalgic about it. Cults dont start out being a cult, they grow into it, it evolves until things can be justified. Just like your story about Freeman not coming down to pray for the fella that collasped, this would comprimise the teaching that Freeman taught and belived. Having been brought up under that teaching, I can understand why he didnt come down to pray or help, this would comprise his faith or show doubt and this is where mark1124 would present his defense. It seems completely justifable to him because he belives like that. This is just one instance of hundreds where eccentric thinking becomes justified.

[micah (micah)]

I hope tom is thinking about the answer to that question, thats a tough one. I was too young to learn alot when I went there, I mean, these people basicaly had ten or so years of seminary going there. they learned greek and hebrew and everything. Whats the pricetag on that? I would not do it if I knew going into it that it would cost the life of one single baby. that being said, they did not know that, and so they are left to make the best of a bad situation. But im talking for tom here so I need to shut up and let him answer that one. I would really like to hear what he would have to say for himself. I have to think pretty hard for myself when I pose that question to me. I didnt learn alot from all the teaching but I learned alot from the life experience. Like what not to do, and how not to be and so on. Its a tough question and I honestly dont know how to answer it for me. so I guess im glad you asked tom and not me, thanks.