Faith AssemblySteve HillMike GreenSteve amp Phil Crockett

[Anonymous (208.10.193.164)]

Does anyone know whatever happened to Steve Hill? He preached at the Glory Barn until after Freeman passed away.

Also would like to know what happened to MIke Green and Steve & Phil Crocket who were apart of the Columbus, Ohio "bodies". I believe it was Phil Crocket's wife that had twins that were born dead or something and they did not call the coroner right away as they tried praying them back to life. I am not postive on that. It might have been Steve's wife, but I think it was Phil. That has been years ago, back in the 80's.

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/

[Anonymous (68.104.146.43)]

Digitizing Update

Recorded Teachings by Hobart E. Freeman, ThD

For quick reference, a simple list of digitized messages by Hobart E. Freeman.
As more messages are digitized, we will add them to this list and mark them
with an asterisk in the listing on the Faith Ministries & Publications website.

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/DigitizedMessages.htm

[duncan (duncan)]

As of a year or so ago, Steve Hill was a minister or associate pastor at Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, Florida. Interestingly, the pastor of that church is also named Steve Hill.

[duncan (duncan)]

As an update to my last post, Steve Hill has his own website. It is http://www.sjhill.com

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

I knew steve and His father stan and always remember their Love, and I am glad Steve is being used By God
in such a good way now.
Jesus is Lord

[michael_markley (michael_markley)]

I Love Steve J Hill with all my heart and may the Lord Jesus greatly Bless Him,,,,

[duncan (duncan)]

I have not heard Steve preach in probably 20 years. As such, I can't make any rational statements. I do know that his two sons were at one time part of a "christian" rock band. I can't say whether he approved or not. As for the previous poster's sarcastic remark regarding the title of Steve's book, I have not read it or seen it. However, to make a statement that suggests that we should not enjoy God is what led to the downfall of FA. In my final few years there as a teenager, it became so leagalistic that you weren't allowed to enjoy the life God had provided. In fact, my father preached a sermon at FA that was a direct revelation from God regarding enjoying His creation. Dr. Freeman made my father recall that sermon. In Dr. Freeman's words, there was nothing wrong with what my father said, but he was afraid that the church might take it too far to the extreme.

Jesus said that he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. To me, that means enjoying the life that I have been given. That includes enjoying God and the time that I spend with him in prayer and in his Word.

Be careful how you say things, because people can take it the wrong way.

Have a blessed day!

[hombre (hombre)]

Fellow Christians,

I am new to this site, but sat under THE teaching for maybe 10 years.
I say THE teaching, because it was then and still is, the BEST,
and most comprehensive Biblical foundation that anyone can get.

Don't even try that line of garbage about Hobart being
legalistic, or embittered.

I don't buy any of it.

I was under that teaching to and beyond his death,
and I don't have a clue why people still try to denigrate the man.

Actually I do.

You see, brothers and sisters, it's called: T-H-E - D-E-V-I-L.
He doesn't come announcing himself, he is an angel of light when he wants to be.

You know, I can never remember a time when either Hobart or Steve mandated ANYTHING.
They taught the Word of God, in an uncompromising way.
What individuals did with it, was up to them.
Of course, the problem that I am hearing here, IMHO, is really about peer pressure.
That is the real culprit here, NOT Hobart, Steve et alius.

So, brothers and sisters, own up, who are you all rootin for,
God or the devil?
Is the Word true or not?
You gonna throw away Mark 16 or not?

I say with Paul:
If it ain't real, let's ditch it post haste.
But I am persuaded that it IS real, for a variety of reasons
that are no easier to explain to an unbeliever than the existence of God.

It is a matter of F-A-I-T-H.

....and Hobart Freeman was and is...a man of FAITH.

Kind of reminds me of the current political situation.
We've got a bunch of liberals criticizing the president,
while the enemy sneaks around blowing things up.
Would this have happened during WW2?
I think not.
So, my question being......
If you lived during ELISHAS' day......
.....would you be criticising him, and calling him a false cultist because he died of a sickness?:

Oh yeah....that Elisha fella... you know he died of the sickness wherein he wuz sick...
......an all those things that people say about him?
Well, who can be sure that they really happened?
I mean really.... who actually saw him part the Jordan with Elijahs coat?
......and what about that cockamamie story about seeing Elijah ride off in a chariot to heaven?
P'shaw!
For all we know, Elisha wuz smokin some weed, hallucinated, and killed Elijah for the coat...
....some farmer'll probably plow up his bones one day.

Brothers and sisters.

This is how this sort of thing gets started.
Somebody tells things their own way, and instills doubts
and problems in the eyes of the unlearned or weak.

We were free individuals then, we are free individuals now.

No one made me or anyone else do anything.

In conclusion, for now that is, until someone wants to
debate me, are you saying:

Let God be true and every man a liar?

or

'the woman that you gave me, she made me do it. ' ????

[mark1124 (mark1124)]

My brother Hombre...

I agree with you completely about Bro. Freeman and Steve. They did teach the truth. Thank the Lord that we have the tapes to go back to. You cannot find that kind of teaching anywhere, save for a few people. Yes, I still have many of Steve's tapes and they are a blessing, just like Bro. Freeman's.

I think the problem, too, brother, is that the message is too strong and people are leaving it for that reason, as well as the stigma of the cross for the disciple. I know there are other reasons too. But then, brother, Gideon's Army was a small band of deliverers anyway.

God has opened my eyes to many things through these teachings. It is sad that some have tried to put Bro. Freeman down (as you probably will figure out by reading some of the other posts).
But that doesn't matter. God will vindicate His servants.

Good to see that there are others who have not bowed their knees to Baal.

Lord bless.

Mark

[pilgrimpro (pilgrimpro)]

Hombre:

".....would you be criticising him, and calling him a false cultist because he died of a sickness?"

As I recall, Freeman had a misshapen foot. The company where he got his custom-made orthopedic shoes went out of business, so he had to buy shoes "off the rack." The shoe didn't fit well, and as a result, he developed gangrene in the foot. He refused to seek medical help, claiming that he was "healed by faith." Aparently, he missed something somewhere, otherwise he wouldn't have died from something that was completely treatable.

Oh, yeah, now I remember. They had a phrase for the fifty or so "Glory Barn" members who were "trusting their faith" and still died from treatable diseases. They called it "dying in faith", a complete misinterpretation of Heb. 11:13.


Pilgrim

[hombre (hombre)]

Dear Pilgrim.

I recently had an old friend die of a 'treatable' condition.
That was his choice.
If you were a member of FA, or sat under the teaching,
you also, had a choice, and still do.
What IS your choice?

There are way too many verses in the Bible dealing with
the power that is given to believers, to turn a blind eye to them...
......I believe that is called 'picking and choosing'.

My point being, if you are going to make your own decisions
about what is 'Divinely inspired' and what is not,
then I believe that you are preaching 'another Jesus'
than the one that is revealed in the book we call the Bible.

Another verse that pops to mind would be this one:
2 Tim 1:5...having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from such, turn away.
Interesting to note that, said verse is contained within the context of the various signs of the end times.

It is not that I do not have compassion for those who did not receive their healing,
thinking that they would, it's just that there are enough people who did receive
healing of one type or another, that this issue is still so compelling.
I had a broken tooth, I delivered 3 of my 5 children at home, by myself in the 80s,
one of whom suffers from a congenital condition, that could easily have been
dealt with, had I had the knowledge of it. There are a number of things
that I am still believing God for, after almost 30 years now.
BTW, Pilgrim, what will you do if you are diagnosed with something
that the doctors can't fix? Who would you turn to then?

People seem to forget that life is a testing and proving ground.
Death is what happens somewhere between the time one is born,
and well, whenever the end ultimately occurs.
Life isn't a place with soft rounded corners.
No matter what direction you choose, life is subject to adversity and difficulties.
What happens to one, happens to all.
No one knows either love or hatred of God by that which he experiences. Ecc: 9:1-3
There is a reason that Ecclesiastes is contained within the wisdom literature books.
It is because it opens up ones' eyes to basic reality.

What I am seeing from your words, is sarcastic bitterness, and disillusion.
IMHO, it would be far better for you to go back to the cross, and accept the
love and grace of Christ in your life, and go from there.
It's not my purpose to be an apologist to those who have problems with
the Faith message, but it is definitely my decision,
not to go around twisting what the book really says.
Therein, I believe is the problem that so many have.
Reconciling what the book says to their personal experience.

Salvation IS a supernatural experience.
The manifestaions of Gods promises ARE supernatural.
Doctors ARE people who utilize the knowledge that they have aquired
from various failed methods until they find one that seems to work.
Doctors ARE experimenters.
Let's not confuse the 2.

So you don't have the faith to receive, either in your mind,
or by endurance. So, go to the doctor then.
No one ever legislated anything to me or anyone else.
No point in pretending to be religious, is there?

I also think that there were a number of people who simply
had weak identities, and allowed themselves to be swept along
through peer pressure, without ever really considering either the gravity
of what they were embarking upon....or actually BELIEVING that
GOD would meet them PERSONALLY, but rather ASSUMING
that things would simply happen according to their own reasoning.
Kind of a pharisaic / legalistic approach in which one barters with God
in order to receive what he wants. If I do this, then you will do that.
Cain was the first to NOT learn the significance of that, from thence,
of course, the children of Israel down to present day works theologians
from the accepted by the world, church.

Personally, not a rewarding way to live my life,
and I find that not only is it that particular organization,
but a multitude of others who drive their members to get involved in the flesh,
doing, doing, doing whatever it is that they think is right;
from going 2 by 2 to every door in the neighborhood, to hosting community events,
and on and on and on. In the meantime, people think they are 'working' for the Lord,
when in fact, they are simply doing 'work'.
Somehow, it eases their consciences, temporarily.

Have your religion, then go home and forget about it.
Come back Sunday, say some words, count some beads,
be a server on the cafeteria line, and you're home free.

Again....good 'ol Ecclesiastes.
I guess the reason I like that book so well, is that it forces a man to
drop his tools, recognize his humanity, get humble,
face God, and fall before Him for mercy.

Christianity is not about having a life, of which religion is a part,
it is about life in the Spirit.
It is about being consumed by God as a living sacrifice.

It all boils down to whether the book is true or not;
or whether one can pick and choose.
If you have the Spirit of Gods' witness in your heart,
you will say..indeed it is true.
I may not understand all the whys,
I may have fallen on my face more than a few times,
........but.............. it is true.

(Message edited by hombre on August 10, 2005)

[micah (micah)]

finaly a post that has some intellectual merit. 'Ole hombre there made me think for a second. Wow thats only the third time this year that has happened!! Yippie!! that was rough, but before i slip back into my comatose haven of unrealistic fantasy where everyone makes sence (and for some reason they all have purple balloons in their hair) I would like to ask hombre a question. (btw, I didnt mean 'ole as in old, but as in 'ole, i dont know it just seemed to fit with hombre, so I hope you did not take offence to that, after all im pretty sure that hombre is not your real name....i guess if it is though then i am fixing for another outbreak of foot-in-mouth disease) so Anyways I was reading your post and I have to say that you sound like you know whats up. that bit about having faith to recieve in your mind or by endurance was good, if I read that in the context it was meant. I took it as you saying that it was ok for someone to go to a doctor, straight up. I may be wrong, let me know. if you dont have faith then get yourself to a doctor eh? it sounded to me like you would not condemn someone in that position but you would want them to be honest about where they are at and go if they need to go right? OK i dont have a problem with that, what I do have a problem with is the people that lost thier lives for something that the bible does not say. that being this: God does not say that he will heal you from everything everytime. And if the bible does promise that then I need to throw out the one ive been reading and buy another one that has better promises in it. It makes me angry to know that children died, (and I can see some eyes rolling and some minds saying"here we go again") but if you think about it, .... well... tell me its not a tragedy. That it was Gods will. I dont know, ANYTHING... but damnit tell me something that makes sence. And I am glad that you dont come down on people that dont recieve their healings and die, I never understood that. How can you follow that teaching and think that way when the man that taught that did not even have enough faith for his own healing? its not that I dont belive that there is power given to believers, its not that at all, but when is the almighty God obligated to heal me? Never. And even the notion that he is turns faith into works, right? that is how I see it, thats what happened. But you need both, its not all faith, faith without works is dead so what does that mean? IT means that if you have a cut put a bandaid on it. What happens when one of your 5 children gets a cut? do you put the bandaid on for them? or do you pray for divine healing? So if you have enough sence to put a bandaid on a cut then why can you not let someone else do that for you? is that not faith? OK so you dont have a problem with someone other than yourself (i.e. a babysitter) putting a bandaid on your child then why would you not let a nurse, or a doctor do what they do best, clean and treat the wound, or disease or cut. I just dont get this whole arm of the flesh BS> and no one has ever explained it in a way that I could say ..AH thats why. God gave us a brain, we are smart enough to clean our cuts, why do we not leave the dirt in and have faith for a divine infected free healing? how is it that we even know the most effective way to clean a cut? is it not for people that have tried to clean cuts with things that did not work untill they found something that did? OK so im going over the top and im doing it to prove a point, use the brain that God gave you, clean your cuts, if they are too big or too complicated then have someone else do it for you, faith is not even a question, but good ole common sence is. But thats not faith right? OR wrong? So i guess that is my question to you ('ole hombre) how does faith for healing work? everyone dies, so obviously God does not expect us to have enough "faith" to heal us from everything, does he?
thats me kwession, keep me posted eh?

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

I would say I have to agree with much of what you have said Micah. The issue that I have with Faith Healing is in regards to preventative medicine. I do believe that God heals through prayer but the bible also says that we are to take care of our bodies. I broke my hand when I was younger and prayed for my healing, but it healed crooked, could God miraculously heal it some day yes. Would it have healed straight if I would have had it set yes is that a lack of faith, to me it's no different then washing out a cut or pulling out a splinter. It is just using common sense. We're not talking about untreatable diseases. Today if I had that happen, I would get it set. I'm sure that is a lack of faith in some peoples eyes, but hey their entitled to their opinion. My brother died of pneumonia at 2 years old. Antibiotics would have probably cured him, don't know but it is likely that it would have. My sister almost died of JD, but my parents took her to the doctor when she was about withered down to a pencil, all their former FA friends said that they had not been in the word enough that's why my brother died and my sister almost did. I recently had to get glasses, probably a lack of faith by some, but I would rather be considered to have a lack of faith than to not be able to work and feed my family and keep a roof over their heads. My children were born in the hospital, why? Because I have no experience in childbirth and doctor's are trained in doing that. Doctors do experiment with some illnesses but many things they are trained in. Hombre's example to me is like trying to fix your wiring in your house when you have no understanding of wiring and praying that God will direct you to do it properly. Again common sense, hire an electrician. Hombre you can say people like me have a lack of faith all you want, that's fine you're entitled to your interpretation. But making sure my family is taken care of is priority number 1 for me. I believe God will meet our needs and he does, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a job or I don't go to the grocery store and buy groceries. I'm not going to change your mind and you'll probably ridicule what I have said and quote a bunch of scripture, but in the end it is really between us and God. He gives the ultimate judgement as to who was right and wrong and if I can live with myself and feel that the way I believe is right with God, then I'm really not concerned about what anyone else thinks because they aren't going to be the ones that judge me.

Have a good day

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Another thing that has always bother me about FA was their anti works theme. What did Jesus do throughout his ministry. He fed people, ministered to people, and helped those in need. If those aren't works then I don't know what works are. FA like to criticize any church that didn't have the total faith message, but many of these "weak churches" have done more good for more people out of the goodness of their hearts than FA ever did for the community that it was in. Was there a strong message taught, yes there was and I have said before I agree with much of what was taught but I think towards the end it became very legalistic and I don't agree with everything that was taught. I don't say that with the intent to denigrate anyone, I just don't agree with everything that came out of the pulpit. For those of you who like to quote scripture, provide me a scripture that dictates what type of clothes we should wear(down to name brands, length and styles of shirts, skirts, etc) what toys we can have or not have, types of food, what musical artists we can listen to, what appliances we can have in our homes, so on and so forth. That is not a "total faith" message that is a legalistic interpretation of a few scriptures that say that we are not to be of the world.

[stabidak (stabidak)]

<font color="0000ff">Problem with the faith healers teaching is that they want to apply to the hear and now what we ARE GUARANTEED in the RESSURECTION, that is perfect sick free bodies.
This is not rocket science, its a matter of reading:
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;

Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.

Luk 21:28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

God specifically laid out for Christians the walk that you will experience when you trust in Jesus.

Heb 11:36 and others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, they were tempted, they were slain with the sword: they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
Heb 11:38 (of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves, and the holes of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

The promise is coming, coming quickly.
in HIS grip, Stabi</font>

[pilgrimpro (pilgrimpro)]

Hombre:

What is MY choice?

"I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD." Psalm 118:17

You rambled on, assuming I was attacking the message. No way. Isaiah 53, I Peter 2:24, Mark 11:24, etc., we both know them all. (Extra credit: study II Peter 1:4 and you'll understand the -purpose- of Divine Health, Divine Prosperity, Divine Protection, et al.)

What I was attacking was the presentation. Freeman did not instill faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus for our salvation ("Salvation" - Greek: "Sozo", means "total deliverance", c'mon, you know the greek!). With Freeman condemning every person having any doctrinal differences from his own as reprobate heretics, he didn't instill FAITH, he instilled FEAR. You talk of everyone having a choice. Some choice - follow Freeman, or be labelled a reprobate! (Which, as I understand, is why Bruce Kinsey left the ministry and is selling cars today - he got that label just before dad-in-law passed on.) You may call Freeman making statements such as "If you're in the doctor's office when the trumpet sounds, you'll be left behind!" as "preaching a strong message." I call it reprehensible, particularly considering the death toll.

None of us has perfect faith. If you do, get out of the boat and walk to shore. I recognize the limits of my faith. Like Peter on the water, I am not too proud to admit when I've missed that level of "Perfect Faith," and call out for Jesus to have mercy on me. Which is why I'm alive today, and Freeman is not.


Pilgrim

[hombre (hombre)]

Beloved brothers and sisters in Christ,

Before I go into what I think about some of these questions
and how I have dealt with them in my life, let me first say this:

I am not perfect....I am working on myself continually, as led of by the Lord,
and as he continues to open my eyes to see, my heart to believe, and my will to follow Him.

I have no condemnation towards anybody.

How can I?

Every single day, I need forgiveness, whether it's getting angry at someone in traffic,
or giving into some other less than righteous thought, even if for a brief moment.

I feel as Paul...the least of all saints...and I say that not
in some sort of false religious humility, but from a broken and contrite spirit.

Ok, then. That having been said, on with the Dear Hombre show. ha-ha!

Q.
'I took it as you saying that it was ok for someone to go to a doctor, straight up. I may be wrong, let me know. if you dont have faith then get yourself to a doctor eh? it sounded to me like you would not condemn someone in that position but you would want them to be honest about where they are at and go if they need to go right?

A.
That would make sense to me.
Your life is your own. God doesn't beat you over the head, neither would I.
Personally, I think that there are much greater issues at stake within the development of
a persons walk with Christ, than whether they are 'successful' at receiving Divine healing.
If we remember correctly, The Bible states: 'These signs shall follow them that believe'.
IMO, the 'signs'........ ~ qualify ~............ the truth of the word preached.
Perhaps there either wasn't room, or there was no need for useless repetition by telling
ALL of the stories of miraculous healings that took place under Jesus' ( et alius ) ministries,
but I have to also believe that for every paralytic that walked, there were a number who didn't.
WHY would that be so?
I think that we can find the answer in what Jesus said:
' Woman, THY faith hath made thee whole'.
Simple enough for me.
If I am not receiving healing, then WHAT is the problem?
I can't answer for anyone but myself, and neither can anyone else.
It is a deeply personal ~ spiritual ~ matter between you alone and God.
This is not some sort of a contest as to who can be greatest in the kingdom,
or yet whether or not we are keeping up with the Joneses...this is a ~ walk ~ with God.
You do with that issue what you will, and let no man either rob your crown
or cause you to do something from pressure.
I will quote one of my favorite old songs:
'Whom the son sets FREE is free indeed, Jesus set ME free'. I am FREE.
One must learn to walk, before one can run.
Did not Peter stumble on his own unbelief, even though
he was the only disciple to get out of the boat?
I dare say that, had he tried that after Jesus resurrection, and found fear in his heart once more,
Peter would've done a deep sixer without Jesus there to pull him out.
Yes, God gave us brains, and I think that to be 'successful' in Faith, that one needs
to not only understand fully the gravity of what one is doing,
but also to ~ know ~ where he is in his walk with God, and be able to subdue
his intellect to his faith.
It ain't easy, that much is for sure.
It seems that the more intellect we have, the more we have to subdue,
and that is not a cry for ignorance, in order to subdue paying masses
for the new church building and/or auditorium.
Again I quote Jesus: 'Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive
the kingdom of God as a little child , he shall not enter therein'.
I think that a very important key is to receive the Word in innocence and simplicity.
You must be willing to believe the impossible,
you must be willing to be a fool in the eyes of the world,
you must be willing to believe God without doubting, and endure.
Endure, meaning not grit your teeth to somehow make it through,
but to ~ rest ~ on the promises.
All one really needs is Mark 11:24, but if you must, you can look at
the other various incarnations of that verse in the other gospels,
Mark 16, these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE,
John 14, He that BELIEVETH ON ME...... greater works shall he do ....
3 John 2: beloved, I wish above all things that you may prosper
and be IN HEALTH, even as your soul prospers.
......So are these Johns' personal desires for a group of believers
a couple thousand years ago, or are they for us?
Again, I have to return to the quintessential issue of Christianity:
Is it the Word ~ of God ~ , or is it not?
How about Isaiah 53?
Is that spiritual healing or physical healing, re: those stripes?
Do you understand the concept of 'Salvation' ?
That salvation is for the WHOLE man, not just the 'soul'?
That salvation is redemption from
the STATE of sin that we were thrust into by Adam?
These are not head knowledge issues alone, but spiritual realities.

I will relate an experience.

A few months after I got saved, I was sitting in a local cruis-a-matic assembly.
The guy that was preaching had this word of knowledge that God had something special for
someone out there in the audience. Sounds pretty nebulous...no?
So anyway, these words hit me like a ton of bricks accompanied by heat.
I really don't want to go forward and feel like an idiot, ....but I knew he was talking about me.
So I go up, he lays his hand on my forehead.
Nothing.
There are a number of others around me that have already gone up, and they are
laying out like cordwood, and I'm thinking Hey, I'm not going to play games like this,
if this ain't real, but I really want to be touched BY THE LORD, I want to KNOW......HIM.
I mean.... FOR REAL. So I am blocking out the audience, I am closing my eyes, and I am
simply calling out to Jesus in my mind...I mean DESPERATELY calling out to JESUS.
I don't know...maybe it was a minute, maybe 5 minutes, whatever it was, it seemed like a long time,
and I knew that the preacher was getting nervous, because I wasn't playing games, or falling
over because he needed confirmation from his audience that he was real, because he kept pushing
on me, trying to put me down. Well, this sort of tingling started happening in my toes,
and then started slowly working it's way up my body, getting stronger and stronger.
About the time it reaches my chest, I'm wondering whether it's going to short circuit my heart or not.
I'm still not going down, but I'm thinking this: You know, I really hate my life, and life really holds
nothing here for me. I've already had my share of partying, getting drunk, screwing around,
enjoyed money and freedom, and it's nothing but emptiness. I don't care if this does short circuit
my heart or not. I have an opportunity right now to actually be touched BY GOD, and I'm not going to
lose it if I can help it.....All right, Lord, I surrender, I give up, I am yours.
The power continues up until it hits the crown of my head. By now my entire body is vibrating.
The power intensifies like 10 fold, and instead of being a vibration, like a wiggly current,
It becomes this incredible rushing torrent of energy, that absolutely envelopes me,
and that's when I crumbled to the floor. I know for a fact that I was there for a long time.
They were dismissing everyone, and people were clearing out, and my now ex-wife said later,
I was waiting on you forever, what were you doing up there?
Impossible to explain.
Absolutely impossible to explain any more than I have to you all here today.
All I can say is this: From that day forward, my entire life changed.
I entered into a spiritual understanding, that I didn't have before.
I understood from that power, that the Creation story of Genesis was no myth or folktale.
That power is all around us, all the time.
It is God....... and His name is Jesus.
Until God becomes an ever present reality in YOUR PERSONAL LIFE, and not just a theological teaching,
that you adhere to because other people do, Divine healing will remain a stumbling block to you.

That is a little part of my story, you must have your own.

Q.
What happens when one of your 5 children gets a cut?
do you put the bandaid on for them? or do you pray for divine healing?

A.
You clean it, put a band-aid on it, pray to the lord, and thank Him that it wasn't his guts falling out.
Ok then, say someones' arm gets broken and is just kind of hanging there.
What do you do?
That is kind of a physical problem. If it were me, I'd get someone who understood anatomy,
to twist it the right way, push it back together until the right parts connected, wrap some crap around it
to hold it in place, like, oh, I don't know, MAYBE SOME GAUZE AND PLASTER PARIS, and then ask God
to please mend it, because otherwise it is still broken.
I can't believe you said that Hombre. You just got through telling us about this spiritual experience.
Ah, how I love Jesus.
Remember when Peter cut off that guys ear?
How did the ear get back on?
Did Christ levitate the ear from the ground to get back to the head of the guy?
No, He picked it up, and put it back on.
Ah. Done. Good as new.

The process would be like this:
1. Pick up / Clean
2. Put back on
3. Ask God to make it whole again.

As you can tell, I am somewhat of a smart-aleck, and being a Christian,
you will have to forgive me for that.
It is something God is still working with on me.
Another thing, is wasting time on the computer when I should be working.
That being said, if anyone else wants to communicate with me,
I really enjoy this...being able to speak with others from FA,
but I won't always be able to get back as quickly as I'd like,
due to the fact that I am self-employed, and can become incredibly busy at times.

Anyway, Micah......I personally feel as though you are too worried,
and are getting way too anxious about all this. Take a chill pill dude.
LET the Lord work with you in His and your own way, and just go back to
appreciating Him for what He did, and learn to simply enjoy His presence
in worship.
That's what I would do.
But don't follow me....follow HIM.

Q.
I broke my hand when I was younger and prayed for my healing, but it healed crooked, could God miraculously heal it some day yes. Would it have healed straight if I would have had it set yes is that a lack of faith, to me it's no different then washing out a cut or pulling out a splinter. It is just using common sense. We're not talking about untreatable diseases. Today if I had that happen, I would get it set. I'm sure that is a lack of faith in some peoples eyes, but hey their entitled to their opinion.

A.
See above 1-2-3 process.

Q.
I recently had to get glasses, probably a lack of faith by some, but I would rather be considered to have a lack of faith than to not be able to work and feed my family and keep a roof over their heads.

A.
Ecclesiates 12:3
I am going to make the following assumption here for now on.
I am going to assume that all of you from FA, at one point or another,
attended or heard the various school tapes.
This was in the poetic literature series.
One of my favorites, as you can see.. good 'ol Ecclesiates again.
Aging is part of the normal process of the life that God has ordained.
Without it, we would become, I am sure, quite arrogant and prideful,
beyond the ridiculous levels that we place ourselves at even now,
of which in reality, we are not a whole lot better than worms.
Anyway.......It is a kind of necessary part of the equation that we
experience mortality and suffering to whatever degree God
deems necessary for us, in order to understand that:
the wages of sin = death.
That isn't just some cliche, it is a reality.
Do you have perfect vision due to your faith?
Praise God!
Can Jesus' redemptive sacrifice make them perfect?
Yes, it can.
Hey. Remember the Hebrew concept of salvation?
Dueteronomy 34:7

We can see these things in the Bible.
We can accept the fact that they are there.
We can believe for them.
...but no one has the right to judge anyone else, except the Lord.

What you do with the scriptures is between God and you...no one else.

Q.
My children were born in the hospital, why? Because I have no experience in childbirth and doctor's are trained in doing that. Doctors do experiment with some illnesses but many things they are trained in. Hombre's example to me is like trying to fix your wiring in your house when you have no understanding of wiring and praying that God will direct you to do it properly. Again common sense, hire an electrician. Hombre you can say people like me have a lack of faith all you want, that's fine you're entitled to your interpretation.

A.
I am not accusing you of anything.
You are assuming that you understand me, based upon a paragraph or two.
I have my own trials to endure, and I am still awaiting manifestation on many things.
Would I do things differently if I could go back?
Sure.
I've also had 20 years now to stew and meditate on these things,
and I'm willing to wait on the Lord, and not try to force Him into a box that I define.

Q.
I'm not going to change your mind and you'll probably ridicule what I have said and quote a bunch of scripture, but in the end it is really between us and God. He gives the ultimate judgement as to who was right and wrong and if I can live with myself and feel that the way I believe is right with God, then I'm really not concerned about what anyone else thinks because they aren't going to be the ones that judge me.

A.
Would you have me quote the Koran?
Ha-ha. As I told you, I am somewhat of a smart aleck.
The point is this:
I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God,
and that will be my defining philosophy in any discussion re: religious matters.
...but I think you are on the right track in submitting yourself to God alone,
and not worrying about what men think.
Forgive me, but I'm about to have another spasmodic relapse into scripture quotation:
...Matthew 10:28.
If it were me, however, I wouldn't get to comfortable with what YOU think
is right or wrong in your personal universe. Judges 21:25, Prov. 14:12.
A balance here, would be a good thing, because I am sensing not only
individualism, but a stiffnecked sort of rebellious, devil-may-care attitude,
that I don't find in keeping with the Spirit of Christianity.

I think that if any of us are going to grow in a positive direction,
we first need to look at the past, and start forgiving not only others,
but also ourselves; drop your burdens off at the foot of the cross,
and just begin anew. Forget the pressures, and start over.
God is much bigger than any of us, and He can handle you
and whatever your problem may be.

Q.
Another thing that has always bother me about FA was their anti works theme. What did Jesus do throughout his ministry. He fed people, ministered to people, and helped those in need. If those aren't works then I don't know what works are. FA like to criticize any church that didn't have the total faith message, but many of these "weak churches" have done more good for more people out of the goodness of their hearts than FA ever did for the community that it was in. Was there a strong message taught, yes there was and I have said before I agree with much of what was taught but I think towards the end it became very legalistic and I don't agree with everything that was taught. I don't say that with the intent to denigrate anyone, I just don't agree with everything that came out of the pulpit. For those of you who like to quote scripture, provide me a scripture that dictates what type of clothes we should wear(down to name brands, length and styles of shirts, skirts, etc) what toys we can have or not have, types of food, what musical artists we can listen to, what appliances we can have in our homes, so on and so forth. That is not a "total faith" message that is a legalistic interpretation of a few scriptures that say that we are not to be of the world.

A. My, my, Cougar, we are certainly bitter today.
Mother Theresa did a lot of good things for those people in India, didn't she?
Was preaching the word of God the most important of them?

In the Gospels, I see Jesus traveling about, from one place to the next....TEACHING.
What was Jesus doing before He multiplied fish and loaves?
Uh...............teaching.
He wasn't running a mission for the homeless giving out free meals and a bed to anyone
who would submit to a round of sermons, now was He?
He wasn't running Friday night bingo to help raise money for the orphanage, now was He?
He wasn't coaching a Christian basketball team because the churches members were really bored with
Sunday after Sunday of boring, shallow, mind-numbing, smiley faced philosophy, now was He?
I hope you get the drift.
I am not against helping people,........but the primary reason for the churches existence,
is not to be a charity organization, but a teaching and worship center, that is focused upon
leading unbelievers to Christ, and leading believers into maturity.
One does not become mature in the Spirit by merely volunteering time to some community cause.
You don't get brownie points with God by offering up the works of your own hands.

Q.
Problem with the faith healers teaching is that they want to apply
to the hear and now what we ARE GUARANTEED in the RESSURECTION,
that is perfect sick free bodies.
This is not rocket science, its a matter of reading:

A.
First off, Stabidak,
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that the mispellings, fragmented sentence structure,
and odd descriptive, which to us, is obviously foreign, is based upon the fact that
you are not fluently conversant in our language.
Secondly,
That leads me to believe that you are not from the US, and therefore, probably never attended
ANY of the meetings at FA, or ever listened to any of the messages.
Thirdly,
IF by chance you ever did, you probably were not as fluent in the English language as you are now,
being as that was almost 20 years ago now, which BTW, would have made you what age?
That leads me to believe then, that if you had heard back then, you would probably not have understood it
anyway, due to the language and/or age barrier.
Fourthly,
Yes. Stabidak, it is a matter of reading; try these.
Mark 11:24, 2Cor1:20, 3 Jn 2, Heb.13:8, Mark 16:17-18, John 14:12.
Fifthly,
You are not talking to people who have never read the Bible.
The teachings from FA ( Hobart Freeman ) were comprehensive in scope,
and were on par with attending seminary level classes. The vast majority of
Christendom has little on us here. I say that not as a braggart, I say it in truth.
Your theology leaves much to be desired in terms of comfort to a needy and hungry people.
I have found that churches who propagate a powerless Christian existence,
eventually die from exasperation. Why bother? Get saved and forget about it till you die.
If salvation is only for the hereafter, then logically, one should leave it there.
But it isn't.

Check this out: 2 Tim. 3:5.




I pray that the Lord Jesus Christ,
will illumine each and every one of us,
to behold and understand the truth,
and what is the breadth and length,
and height and depth,
of the unsearchable riches of His glory;
and to comfort each of us,
in our search for Him in our lives.

Love you Brothers and Sisters,

Peace,

Hombre.

[hombre (hombre)]

Pilgrim:

Q.
What is MY choice?

A.
Said question was meant to provoke the understanding,
that you have a choice, not push you into mine or anyone elses.

Quote:
With Freeman condemning every person having any doctrinal differences from his own as reprobate heretics, he didn't instill FAITH, he instilled FEAR. You talk of everyone having a choice. Some choice - follow Freeman, or be labelled a reprobate!

Response:
.... be labeled a reprobate by whom?
Heb.13:6. I will not fear what man can do to me.
Waaaaaaay to much anger and resentment here, bro.
Read my previous posting.

Quote:
None of us has perfect faith.

True.

Quote:
If you do, get out of the boat and walk to shore.

Presumptuous. Matt: 4:5-7

Quote:
I recognize the limits of my faith. Like Peter on the water, I am not too proud to admit when I've missed that level of "Perfect Faith," and call out for Jesus to have mercy on me.

I've been there a lot myself.
Read my previous posting.

Quote:
Which is why I'm alive today, and Freeman is not.

ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............
Very, VERY bad.
No.
You are alive today because of the grace of God,
not your own power, or knowledge.

Pride, arrogance and boasting.
I believe that they come before the fall.

I will pray for you.

Peace,

Hombre.

(Message edited by Hombre on August 11, 2005)

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

In regards to the works issue, I am not bitter. There are just some items that I don't agree with that were taught there. I believe that the church is also there to take care of those in need as well it gives you an opportunity to minister to those who are downtrodden. If a church wants to help an orphanage or a homeless shelter, what's the harm in it. My point was FA and its ministry preached so often against works I think that people got the wrong message, that if they did works it was a sin. Too many times the message of FA was taken to the extreme. I don't know who's at fault for that. Christians and non Christians need help outside of spiritual needs from time to time and I don't think that there is anything wrong with the church helping those people. It's works but it's necessary as well. If a church member's house burnt down, and the church had a fundraiser to help them out, it's works, but the church is genuine in their support. This is all I'm getting at. A church's main goal shouldn't be works but to teach the message of Christ, but it also should be a good steward of the resources that it has be given as well and help those in need.

As far as individualism goes, you're right I am somewhat that way, that's just my personality. I'm not opposed to listening to the opinions of others or listening to constructive criticism either. It's not that I don't have to answer to anyone, but rather ultimately what I believe and follow is between myself and God. If I am in the wrong on something, God will show it to me or will use someone else to show it to me.

In regards to your point about steps 1-3 in regards to bandaids or childbirth that's the way that I think now, but at FA when I attended to suggest that you get a bone set and a cast put on it or to get stitches would have been considered a lack of faith. This is the point that many of us had been hitting at. Many of us that post now were children then and didn't have a choice. It is easy for some posters to say that you have a choice to believe this or to believe that we were kids we had to do what our parents said we didn't have a choice. Now that we do we're doing things differently. The children in FA didn't have a voice and that is the issue that many of us struggle with.

Lastly I am glad to see some actual constructive conversation on the board for a change.

Have a good afternoon

(Message edited by cougarxr72 on August 11, 2005)

[stabidak (stabidak)]

<font color="0000ff">Yo Hombre, I am sorry if my writing is not up to par, I am 37 years old and was born and have lived my entire life in the US of A.
I did drop out of High School but I got my GED last year and in May completed my first 33 hours of JUCO.
I have posted on here and elsewhere that I have never been to the Glorybarn, but when my wife was a little girl her entire existence was turned upside down after her parents started attending FA.
Her glasses were taken away, her grades began to fail, her Birthday was no longer a special day, nor was any other holiday, her life's course was altered and she became very bitter and angry and since we have been together, 14 years now I have researched Hobart Freeman thoroughly, he was a good one for sure, one of the best scam artists I have ever seen and as a Loss Prevention Investigator for the last 10 years I have seen plenty of different scams.
Hobarts teachings cost people their lives.
My wife's parents are responsible, no doubt about that, but they believed Hobart, and they to have paid dearly.
I am sorry my literary skills are not up to par.
in HIS grip, Stabi</font>

[hombre (hombre)]

Great is the Lord.
and greatly to be praised,
in the city of our God,
in the mountain of his holy Name.
Beautiful for situation,
the joy of the whole earth,
His mount Zion on the sides of the north,
the city of the great King.

Thy loving kindness is greater than life,
thy loving kindness is greater than life,
my lips shall praise thee,
so shall I bless thee,
I will lift up my hands to thy Name.

Hallelujah.
It is all about YOU....Jesus.
It is not about a man, or a group of men.
It is not about my past sin,
or even yet where I am not perfect today.
It is about YOU, Lord Jesus, and Your DIVINE grace.
It is about YOU...Lord Jesus, and what you did for me on the cross.
It is about YOU...Lord Jesus, and the fact that you will never leave me, nor forsake me.
It is about YOU..... Lord Jesus, and the infinite, incomprehensible love
that you have shown me, are showing me even now,
and have promised to continue to show me until the day that my walk upon the earth is complete.
Thank you.....Jesus, ............ thank you......Jesus, ............... thank you......Jesus.

Good morning, my beloved brethren!

I remember a time, when my real blood-family, was no where near the point
of closeness to my heart as my extended Christian family from the FA outreach meetings
that I attended. That was an incredible time, and God was moving in a way that
was so thick at times, I went home from the meetings anointed with an energy
that enveloped me with power and strength in the Spirit.

Sorry, that's the only way to describe it.

If you have or had not experienced this, it is still here.

God is eternal.

He touches me every day.

I couldn't live without Him.

That is where I am at today, brothers and sisters.

I have fallen, many, many times.
What amazes me, is Christs' boundless love for me,...... a loser.

I don't get it.

No reason for Him to love me.

That's also where it gets a little scary.
His favor is unmerited, and He chooses whom He will.
How many, out there, will never know that Jesus Christ is a reality?
THIS is the proper understanding of the 'Fear of the Lord', which IS the BEGINNING of wisdom.

Those of you here who became afraid, with a tormenting fear,
of meeting the disdainful eyes of peer pressure....for you, I am sorry.
That fear is not of God, but of Satan.
A counterfeit to the real thing, which is a productive force in the believers life,
producing, humility, thankfulness, and a heart that is, at least, willing to be obedient.

We are by nature, wild beasts.
It DOES take The Lord to tame us.

What I also know, is this:
It is a good thing to fellowship with other saved believers.
Our enlightened spirits prod one another, in the direction of increased hope and faith in God.
'Iron sharpeneth iron, so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. ~ Prov. 27:17.
I am thankful to have met you all here, and if there is any thing that I can help you with,
from my own library of experience, I pray that it will prove to be effectual and a positive influence
in your lives. I likewise, do not perceive myself to be at a level of perfection that is infallible.
I have learned some profound things from babies in the walk.
God can even talk through donkeys if he wants too.
Let's not limit Him.

Cougar:

Quote:
If a church member's house burnt down, and the church had a fundraiser to help them out,
it's works, but the church is genuine in their support. This is all I'm getting at.

A.
If you'll recall, Jesus' definition of pure religion, undefiled before God, was to visit the fatherless
and widows in their affliction, and to keep yourself unspotted from the world.
Later on, in the NT, Paul qualifies the widows as being those in good standing within the
assembly, over a certain age. The church IS NOT a welfare agency to the persecuting world;
But, there can be circumstances within the church that the church SHOULD minister too.
How about the Tsunami Relief Fund?
Hey, if you feel led of the Lord to give, then give.
This is not about legislating a set of rules to live by...that is what we do not want or need.
It is about following the leading of the Holy Spirit for yourself.


More of my testimony.

Everyone experiences some sort of catalyst when they finally choose to make a decision.
My reasons for leaving the outreaches that I attended, was due to legalism that crept in,
and the fact that others, including many old and dear friends close to my heart, couldn't see.
I wasn't going to bind myself to some sort of system of behavior, out of peer pressure.
For me, it was when this preacher mentioned that ( I am paraphrasing here )
'everything in the world is gray, no one wants anything to be black and white,
or right and wrong. that way it is easy to excuse sin, etc., Even the clothes that people
are wearing now tends toward grays. WE shouldn't wear gray clothes and be like the world'.
We were already all beginning to look alike, what with blue jean jumpers for the women,
and this sort of 50's look for the men.
Sorry, dude, I am NOT going to demonize a color.
THAT is WACKO.

The kingdom of God is NOT in meat or drink ( or a dress code ),
but in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

BTW: How I love my Nikes. I love my air jordans, and air hiking boots.
They are the greatest, and oh yes, I wear blue jeans and logo t-shirts, and plaid shirts,
and pretty much whatever I want to wear. Leather bomber jackets in the winter, whatever.

I don't have to belabor the point, that Christian women do not wear thongs as attire in public, do I?

So combined with a number of other issues, I left....the difference between the way I saw it,
however, and the way that others saw/see it, is this: The ~ theology ~ that Hobart taught us, is absolutely
foundational, and clean from error. By that, I am speaking of the school tapes, and the principles of
sound faith, like positive thinking and confession, praying in Jesus name, etc.

The rest of the stuff that people got wrapped up with, IMO, was due to the fact that people hadn't
taken the time to develop a sound foundation in Christianitys' principles.

.....and how could they?

...what with going to 3 or 4 meetings a week, the women constantly hustling crying babies in and
out of the nursery at church, their hands full the rest of the week with all these demands of
many children, and beset by a million other issues like: the importance of home-schooling
in contradiction to Christs' prayer ( John 9:15 ) , sewing to be like the virtuous women of Proverbs,
cooking everything from scratch...working, working, working...it's no wonder that people
didn't get grounded, the time that was left for Bible study, was simply rushing through teachings,
taking notes, but never really having the time to absorb what was being taught.

Faith takes time.

It takes a lot of time.

Like a lifetime.

First the seed, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.

We learn to live the principles of Christianity and faith ~ IN GOD ~ , as we walk through our daily lives,
being confronted by the unending parade of circumstances that life throws at us.

We can't get faith by trying to cram a thousand teachings down our throats in a 6-week program.
Nor do we get it by cloistering ourselves away from the world like so many monks and nuns.
The world is our proving ground, and it is the place where we can so clearly see, and be reminded,
of not only who we are, but also who we do not want to be.

Quote:
Many of us that post now were children then and didn't have a choice. It is easy for some posters to say that you have a choice to believe this or to believe that we were kids we had to do what our parents said we didn't have a choice. Now that we do we're doing things differently. The children in FA didn't have a voice and that is the issue that many of us struggle with.

A.
I was an adult.
Yes, I made the choices for my children.
Yes, there was the home birthing, there was believing in God through some nasty fevers, etc.
I happened to love my children, more than the thought of following a doctrine to their deaths,
or jail. You see, If they want to chop off my head for the name of Jesus, that's OK.
If they want to persecute me because of the miracles that happen as a result of my faith,
that's OK too. But to me, watching someone die of a treatable cause, while ~ wondering ~
if they will be healed or not, is really not faith, and I am not willing to sour the name of Jesus
in the eyes of the world for that, look like a complete idiot, and end up in jail, losing my children to be raised by a bunch of unbelievers, as wards of the state.
Sorry, that is not Gods' best. Yes, there are trials of faith, yes, there are extremes and exceptions,
but the exceptions prove the rule...a witicism Hobart often quoted.
God isn't glorified by failure.
God is glorified when His promises are shown to be true.
How many cheered when my favorite singer from FA, Carl Seitz died?
We lost an incredibly talented and anointed songwriter.
What went wrong?
I am not going to be the one to blame the promises of God.
Neither am I going to be one to say that the promises are not for today.
I also refuse to condemn Carl for his personal choice.

Let's assume that the story of Jericho went down a different way.
Let's say that they kind of performed their exercise in a half-hearted way, and
at the end, the priests blew their trumpets, but no one really believed that this was gonna happen.
I mean, GIVE ME A BREAK! Those are solid rock walls, 15 feet thick, they outnumber us,
and have better weapons, in addition, we've been circling the city in desert heat, a round trip of
probably at least a 2-3 miles times 7 = 14 to 21 miles, and we're really too tired to do much fighting,
even if the walls come down. So after the priests blow their horns, the walls don't come down,
but the entire citys' warriors come rushing out, slaughtering multitudes of Israels' people,
and chase them with their tails between their legs until they are decimated.

Would God have been glorified, and magnified by the heathen?

BTW: that DID happen one time...at a different city.

The results were, that Israel went into mourning.

I know when I have faith for something, and I know when I'm wavering, and I won't make it.
That is also a really good place to NOT be standing without the genuine article of faith,
in the place of someone else, like your children; but the bottom line is that faith is in the heart
of the believer, and no one knows but you, God and the devil.

Ah yes.

The devil.

Not to magnify him, but brothers and sisters, he is a formidable foe.

If you are going to believe in the God of the Bible, then of necessity,
you also must understand that this guy runs around too, and guess what?....
he doesn't bother mere professors of Christianity, no point in wasting time on them.
They don't believe much of anything anyway.
The promises are all for the hereafter, or not for today, or whatever their brand
tells them, in order to avoid the uncomfortable extremes that Jesus preached.

I have routinely heard preachers gloss over the miracles of Christ or the apostles,
to get to some minor point, that they magnified to have a inoffensive sermon.

The Bible is NOT an easy book, and to re-iterate...Faith takes time.

Quote:
Hobarts teachings cost people their lives.

A.
No.
People did what they wanted to do.
It is a matter of personal responsibility.
How is it that I sat under 2 different outreaches for 10 years,
was on 3 automatic mailings, and yet saw through
some of the legalism that crept in?

I wasn't just lucky.

I took the time to study, and to know the difference between faith and religion.
Neither did I have any respect of persons when it came to matters of faith,
my life and the lives of my children. So what if brother Joe, sister Suzy
has a little hissy fit because I wear glasses, or if I'm married to a second wife,
or if I took penicillin because I was dying of pneumonia?
Those are all things between me/us and my/our God, and it's NONE of their business.

Let NO man judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon,
or of sabbath days.... ~ Col. 2: 16

I might also add to that, in principle, that one shouldn't let any man judge us in ANYTHING.
We are independent creatures with our own distinctly unique and individual characteristics and wills,
which makes us morally responsible creatures as well.

'...whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap ' ~ Gal 6:7

GOD was willing to die on the cross for us, dead in our sins.
He knows that He took on a major project when He did that,
and yet He continues to work on us....day by day.
He is eternal and infinite, and so is his mercy and grace.

I thank God for that every day.

But I also understand, that He has given me a will,
which needs to be subjected to Him, not ANY man or organization.

Again, only you and God can know, what's really going on inside;
and in conclusion, I am still believing to see Gods glory manifested
throughout the world, by believers like you and me,
preaching the Word.....WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING.

I don't have all the answers, but I do believe the Word of God.

Amen.

May the Lord bless you, and keep you through His divine grace.

Hombre the worm.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

I don't really know if the fact that you were in an outreach meeting rather than at FA had any affect on the legalism. People were disassociated from the church for some of these legalistic issues. Some friends of ours had began to go to FA but left because of the ridicule that they recieved because they wouldn't take off their glasses and their daughter had epilepsy and they had her treated for it. Many people in the church were somewhat cruel to those who were new in the faith. I am of the same opinion that I believe you are in that faith takes time, new Christians are not going to be at the same level of understanding that Christians of 10-15 years are, but FA expected everyone to be at the same level and you were criticised if you weren't at the same level. It was common practice that if you didn't follow these legalistic views you were considered to be worldly and backslidden. I believe that the legalistic fanaticism was less in the outreach meetings, I attended some of Tom Hamilton's meetings a couple times and they were definitely less concerned about the minor issues. I appreciate your correspondance and non judgemental mentality to the discussion.

Have a good weekend

[pilgrimpro (pilgrimpro)]

Hombre:

"Great is the Lord.
and greatly to be praised,
in the city of our God,
in the mountain of his holy Name. (sic)"

Um, its "mountain of his holiness." Ps 48:1, KJV.
Yeah, I'm nit-picking. But you sing something so many times, it never leaves you, even years later.

I attended a small church, mid 70's to mid 80's, associated (loosely) with FA. We had a number of ministers come through: Steve Hill ('fro and all!), Bruce Kinsey (once or twice), Tom Hamilton - all seven-feet-plus of him! (Cougar: heard anything about him lately? Can't find him on Google...) Chuck Clayton, too. I remember the level of respect that Freeman had. The doctrine was sound, and widely received. I still have my copy of "Deeper Life.." packed in a box somewhere.

Then something happened. It's hard to place a time on it, but it was probably about the time that "Shepherdship" came out - Prince, Basham, et al. Freeman stood up against it, but instead of merely attacking the -doctrine- he began to attack the minsters themselves. If you have a copy of his audio tape on Shepherdship, relisten to it with an open mind. It drips with sarcasm, mockery, ridicule.

From there it got worse. Freeman began to attack many other ministers, accusing them of heresy (his own term). Any minister who taught anything different from Freeman's understanding of the Bible was fair game. Oral Roberts was attacked for starting the medical center at ORU. Kenneth Copeland and even Ken Hagin were branded as heretics.

Which brings me to the so-called "JDS Heresy."

In his book "Did Jesus Die Spiritually" Freeman attacks the doctrine, first popularized by Kenyon, that Jesus suffered in Hell for our sins. Frankly, I support Freeman's -doctrine- much more than Kenyon's, although both make serious logical errors in their arguments.

The issue I have with Freeman, particularly exemplified in this book, is the critical spirit he had towards those who taught Kenyon's doctrine. ( If you want to read Freeman's book online, go to http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/jdsfirstpart.htm ). While the book named no one specifically, the tone towards these "charismatic" ministers (quotes are Freeman's) was bitter and sarcastic.

From this point, it got much worse.

Because of the level of respect that Freeman had earned (yes, I said EARNED), when he became critical of other ministers, accusing them of being heretics, doomed to an eternity in hell (by implication), people became fearful. Reportedly, he even maintained a personal list of these "heretics" in the desk drawer in his study: column A, the minister's name; column B, their heresy.

The critical attitude then turned towar FA members. I mentioned the comment he reportedly made in a previous message: "If you're at the doctor's office, and the trumpet sounds, you'll be left behind." (To be honest, I didn't hear the comment firsthand - it was reported to me by my pastor.) Out of respect for Freeman, and fear that God was going to leave them behind in the tribulation, people began to refuse medical help.

I remember the case of a sixteen-year-old girl, type-1 diabetic, who died because she was afraid to take her insulin, in fear that Christ was going to condemn her for her "lack of faith for her healing." Yes, IMO, Freeman was responsible for that girl's death. And, as I recall (anyone else, correct me on this) that the State of Indiana had a similar opinion. Reportedly, they were getting ready to file manslaughter charges against him just before he died.

(Cougar: Tom Hamilton, so I heard, actually -did- have charges filed against him. Do you remember if this is true?)

I differentiate between the man and the message. Men are imperfect - only one Man ever was perfect. I receive the message only as it lines up with the Word of God. So I don't reject Freeman's message, nor do I reverence the man.


Hombre, you have the tendency to cherry-pick your points, taking comments out of context, bypassing the point being made entirely, and I have no doubt that you'll do the same here. But if you're honest, then you'll respond to the POINT BEING MADE, whether you agree with it nor not. Frankly, I hope you prove me wrong.


Pilgrim

BTW, congratulations! You're not easily provoked - sanctimonious and self important, maybe. Long-winded - definitely! Easily provoked, nope! Not that I didn't try my best, though. ;^)

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

Another good post, if you could somehow find the name of the tape in which Dr. Freeman states what you claim he says about long term medication I would like to go back and listen to it. In all of the years that I attended there and the years that I listened to the messages I don't recall that being said. If it was, then I'll stand corrected. I have relistened to some of the tapes just recently to try and find where he said some things people claim he said. There is a tapelist at the FA site at the link mentioned in pilgrim's post. In regards to pilgrim's quotes about being in the Doctor's office when the trumpet sounds, I was listening to one of the tapes in Colossians and he made a statement very similar to this one. I can go back and listen to it again to get the actual verbage, but there were statements like that made just in the few tapes that I have recently listened to. To Pilgrim, I'm sorry but I don't have any info on Tom Hamilton, last I had heard he was still preaching down in KY. I also had tried googling him to no avail. I hadn't heard that he had been charged either.

Have a good day

[pilgrimpro (pilgrimpro)]

Hey hombre!

Take a chill pill, dude! (Oh yeah, I forgot! "Pill" is a four-letter word! Try a hot cup of tea instead...)

"1. Singing the 'wrong' words."
Chill out, man! The song is from Ps 48, you misquoted it. I even said I was nit-picking you! Sheesh!

"2. You can call me whatever you want."
Another chill moment! Not meant to be taken seriously! See the little eye-winky emoticon at the end there?

"3.Long-windedness."
No comment. Wouldn't want to be long-winded here! ;^) (Footnote: "Winky Emoticon" = "Lighten up!")

"4. What is heresy?"
A) The feminine form of "hisesy" (nah - different pronunciation..)
B) The belief that the Paul, Peter, and John all wore Afros! (nah - that's "hairesy")
C) Oooh, oooh, I know! Comes from the original language, means "choosing". (Can't get into that "original language" stuff - it's all Greek to me!) "Choosing" - kinda like choosing what part of the Bible you want to believe, or what points of a post you want to respond to. "Cherry-picking" in modern American idiom.

"certain items of belief are absolutely necessary for salvation, and they ARE absolute in nature."

And where, exactly, did I state otherwise?

"Interesting, that when I have told Baptist, Evangelical and even Presbyterian friends
about some of the various errors and heresies among Charismatic circles that you mention,
They are astounded that people swallow them, and...guess what? These types of
bizarre, and yes, HERETICAL doctrines are some of the very reasons those mainstreamers
want no part of Charismania."

Happens every time there is a move of the Spirit (read Mt. 13:24 and following). Pick your era--

First century: Gnosticism (I John 4:2-3)
Second century: Marcionism
Cane Ridge Revival: rise of the Shakers

And so on. Time doesn't permit me to continue. I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Kenyon, the root of JDS, had some excellent understanding of Scripture (read his book "The Blood Covenant") Other areas, he missed it seriously ("What Happened from the Cross to the Throne", the source of JDS).

As for Hobart's little book ("Did Jesus Die Spiritually") I used to own a copy, until the Holy Spirit directed me to get rid of it! (Yes, it was the "Holy" kind). Why? Not because Hobart's doctrine was wrong (except for one particular point..). It was because of the spirit (lowercase "s") in which Freeman attacked the people teaching JDS.


I'm running out of time (ironically, I have a doctor's appointment...)

Irreverent question (three part):

"I could give you the number of the tape,
except that my now ex-wife threw almost all of them out one day."

1)Why did she throw them out?
2)Why is she your "now ex-wife"?
3)Are the two answers related?


(My impish side...sorry)


Pilgrim

[hombre (hombre)]

Ah, pilgrim.......

Whatever.

Talking about divorce is one thing that doesn't appeal to me.
I have been through more with women than any man I have ever personally met;
that is not an exaggeration, nor is it yet boasting of my adversities in order
to have one up on anyone else, it is just true.

This is neither the time nor place to go into details, but I will say that the tapes got thrown out, obviously, because she didn't take a likin' to 'em.

I'm tired now, and it's the end of the day.
I'm goin' home.

[hombre (hombre)]

Quote:
As for Hobart's little book ("Did Jesus Die Spiritually") I used to own a copy, until the Holy Spirit directed me to get rid of it! (Yes, it was the "Holy" kind). Why? Not because Hobart's doctrine was wrong (except for one particular point..). It was because of the spirit (lowercase "s") in which Freeman attacked the people teaching JDS.


Fascinating.

I seem to recall the indignation of Christ,
when he spoke against the religious leaders of His day.
I have even heard unbelievers use that as a proof text,
to show that Christ got angry, and therefore sinned.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Hobarts'
zealousness toward purity of doctrine.
...and I'm wondering, why it is, that I don't see
this 'wrong spirit', yet you do.

Why am I not offended, yet you are?

2. What 'particular' point would you be referring to?

(Message edited by Hombre on August 18, 2005)

[healed (healed)]

You know, I can never remember a time when either Hobart or Steve mandated ANYTHING.
They taught the Word of God, in an uncompromising way.
What individuals did with it, was up to them.
Of course, the problem that I am hearing here, IMHO, is really about peer pressure.
That is the real culprit here, NOT Hobart, Steve et alius.

LOL. Now thats funny. Actually its dangerous. It was up to them he says. Brotha Hombre, you better go back and read some post on this site. I mean, what are you trying to say? You say it was up to the people to do with the teaching what they wanted? Do you need slapped? If the herd didnt do as they were told, they were excomunicated and made to feel guilty of having disobyed Gods (Freemans) teaching! Their lack of faith would result in having been disobdient to Gods (Freemans) word and would go to hell for it! Now thats one hell of a burden to bear aint it? It was mind control. Nice try. Nice spin. Same ole Same ole. I smell another Freemanite.

[pilgrimpro (pilgrimpro)]

Hombre:

I'll start with point 2 - where I disagree with Hobart. The point being what is the "correct" interpretation of II Corinthians 5:21 -

"For he hath made him sin, who knew no sin...."

Freeman makes the argument that the Greek word for sin (hamartia), the same word used both times in this passage, should be translated "sin offering" in the first part of this passage. I quote Freeman:

"That is, the term translated as 'sin-offering' and 'sin' in one and the same in Hebrew. It was the context in which the term was used which expressed whether one was speaking about the sin-offering of sin itself."

(From "Did Jesus Die Spiritually," Chapter 4, Point #1,"SIN, OR A SIN-OFFERING AT CALVARY?")

This, flatly, is a misinterpretation of the Hebrew idiom.

There were several words used generically for offerings in Hebrew. However, whenever a specific type of offering was mentioned, only the word for the type of offering appeared - the word "offering" was understood, and unstated. This is NOT equivalent to the word signifying the type of offering having a dual meaning.

A few examples from the Hebrew:

Burnt (offering) - Gen. 22:2,3,6,7,8
Wave (offering) - Ex. 29:24,26
Sin (offering) - Ex. 29:36; 30:10
Drink (offering) - Ex. 29:40,41; 30:9
Peace (offering) - Lev. 3:1,6,9
Trespass (offering) - Lev. 5:6,15,16,18

And so on. Numerous other examples exist - just look up the word "offering" in Strong's and look at how many OT references where no Hebrew word is listed (and a few where the wrong Hebrew word is listed).

Why is this significant? Because Freeman makes the assumption that the Hebrew idiom translates directly over to the Greek.

Again, quoting Freeman (ibid.):

"This is confirmed also by the Jewish Septuagint translators who used the Greek term for "sin," aJmartiva (hamartia), to translate the Hebrew term for the sin-offering in their translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek."

This is a poor argument for the Hebrew idiom translating directly into general Greek usage. In general, translations of documents frequently reflect the idioms of the source language over those in the target language - for example, have you ever read an owner's manual translated from another language?

Reasons for adopting source-language idioms in the final document vary. One likely possibility is that the translator wanted to retain the literal wording from the original language (the old "literal" versus "functional" translation debate). Another possibility is that the target language may not have been the translator's primary language (the "owner's manual" example). In any case, using a document translated from the Hebrew as a proof text for common idiomatic usage in the Greek is a poor argument.

Again, from Freeman:

"In addition to the Septuagint translators using the Greek term for 'sin' to translate the Hebrew term for 'sin-offering,' this usage is also found in the book of Hebrews. This is evident from Hebrews 10:6 where we read: 'In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin....' Here again only the Greek term for 'sin' occurs in the Greek New Testament, but it is used in the sense of 'sin-offering.' The translators of the English version are aware of the fact, inasmuch as they translate the term 'sin' as meaning 'sin-offering.' This is evident in that they supply (in italics) the word 'sacrifices,' signifying that the term 'sin' is being used by the writer of Hebrews to express the sacrifice for sin (sin-offering) and not actual sin itself."

The same argument applies here, since the Book of Hebrews is reported to have been originally written in Hebrew (by Paul) and translated to Greek (by Luke).

So what? Glad you asked. Hobart uses this argument as the basis for his "proof" that II Cor. 5:21 means that Christ became an offering for our sin, and not, as Kenyon contends, took on man's sinful nature and had to be "born again" Himself. Based on his logic, Freeman fails in his proof.

For the record, if any question exists in your mind, when Jesus said "It is finished!" I believe that it was! My salvation was purchased ON THE CROSS, and NOT in Hades! I am simply making the point that I can't use Hobart's argument as proof.


Now, as for point one...

"...and I'm wondering, why it is, that I don't see this 'wrong spirit', yet you do."

To be blunt, I don't have a clue why you can't see it.

From chapter 1:

"Did Jesus literally become 'sin' on the cross }<font color="0000ff">as the JDS ministers teach,</font><font color="000000"> or was He a Sin-offering? "

"Did Jesus redeem man in Hell or on the cross? </font><font color="0000ff">The advocates of the JDS Doctrine teach</font><font color="000000"> that redemption was accomplished in the Pit! Jesus, however, contradicts this error with His own words from the cross, which indicate that He had completed His redemptive work there, for He said, 'It is finished.' Whatever </font><font color="0000ff">deluded men may say to the contrary,</font><font color="000000"> these three words stand as a permanent rebuke to the JDS error."

"Did the sinless Son of God become unregenerate and lost at Calvary? Did He have to be to be born again and justified from sin </font><font color="0000ff">as the JDS ministers teach?</font><font color="000000">"

"Are you aware that one of the central doctrines of religious cult teaching is a denial of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ (See my book: Every Wind of Doctrine)? This statement alone </font><font color="0000ff">from this 'charismatic' minister,</font><font color="000000"> stating that the blood of Jesus did not atone, should be enough to alert any </font><font color="0000ff">Bible-believing Christian to the source of such heresy.</font><font color="000000"> Even though </font><font color="0000ff">the JDS teachers</font><font color="000000"> make some reference at times to the blood of Jesus from a seemingly biblical standpoint, nevertheless, </font><font color="0000ff">they have destroyed its power</font><font color="000000"> to cleanse from sin by teaching that Jesus became an unholy sacrifice on the cross."

"Again, was it total identification with sinners by Jesus on the cross, or was it a substitution for sinners? The distinction is important. </font><font color="0000ff">The JDS ministers</font><font color="000000"> confuse the identification of Jesus with the human race at His birth with His substitution for sinners on the cross."

And so on. Question - is Freeman attacking the doctrine, or the people teaching the doctrine?

This is the point. The entire book appears to be an ad hominem attack against a group of ministers, in the guise of a refutation of the JDS doctrine.

I repeat - I have no clue why you can't see it.

Even those contending with heresy in the New Testament never engaged in such ad hominem attacks. (Jude 9; II Peter 2:11; I John 4:2-3). Speaking out against the error itself, that's fine. Branding individual ministers as heretics - even reportedly keeping a list of them - is another matter entirely.

In that vein, if </font><font color="0000ff">I</font><font color="000000">have made any statements that appear as a railing accusation against Freeman, then </font><font color="0000ff">I repent!</font><font color="000000"> But don't interpret that as meaning that I have "seen the light" and now am in agreement with what went on at FA, particularly the death toll. That wasn't faith in operation, not the Mark 11:24 kind of faith, which produces results. That was fear - fear of condemnation of not being in faith.

Pilgrim</font>

[hombre (hombre)]

Even those contending with heresy in the New Testament never engaged in such ad hominem attacks. (Jude 9; II Peter 2:11; I John 4:2-3). Speaking out against the error itself, that's fine. Branding individual ministers as heretics - even reportedly keeping a list of them - is another matter entirely.

In that vein, if I have made any statements that appear as a railing accusation against Freeman, then I repent! But don't interpret that as meaning that I have "seen the light" and now am in agreement with what went on at FA, particularly the death toll. That wasn't faith in operation, not the Mark 11:24 kind of faith, which produces results. That was fear - fear of condemnation of not being in faith.

Pilgrim
__________________________________________________ _____

I am not a greek or hebrew scholar.
I cannot argue the point with you on the basis of
simply using Strongs.
I speak English and am conversant in Espanol,
and that is enough for me to know that there are idiosyncracies
in every language that cannot be fully expressed in another.
When it comes to a choice to believe either your interpretation
of that word form, or Hobarts, I would have to say: I cannot tell.
A disinterested third party would need to be consulted.

What I do know, is that if one believes that Jesus died spiritually,
then that person has no basis for his/her salvation.

Charismatics tend to tune into a lot of errors.

In part, I believe it is because they are more spiritually attuned,
than those who choose to refuse the baptism of the Holy Spirit
as a separate experience from initial salvation.
It opens a door into a whole other realm.

Hobart, IMO, was a doctrine strengthening force,
who helped many of us to understand and recognize
what is Biblical, and what is not.

So we agree, but I am not inclined to be as polite as you.

A duck is a duck is a duck.

You WERE once a SINNER.
Now are you SAINTS ( not going into that here ).

A person who fixes cars is a mechanic.
A person who cleans toilets is a janitor.
A person who promotes heresy is a heretic.

...and according to Jesus, the religious rulers in His day
were called ( by Himself ) 'whited sepulchres full of dead mens bones
and all uncleaness, children of hell, hypocrites, a generation of vipers,
a wicked generation, fools and blind, blind guides,
the children of them who killed the prophets, serpents.
( see: Matt 23, Jesus denunciation of the Pharisees,
Acts 23:27 Paul follows Christs' form )

PC~ness has NO PLACE in the new testament church.

Among other things, the church is a lighthouse to expose error,
and by extension, those who support error.

Jesus was not polite for the sake of not offending them,
and I think especially so, because they were RELIGIOUS people
who purported to know and speak HIS words.

Tell me now, how PC, HELL is.

Gee, whatever will God do,
when people are offended that are sent there?

IMO,
Religion is not a place to mince words to make people happy or feel good.
It is a mortally serious issue, and needs to be approached in that manner.

(Message edited by Hombre on August 22, 2005)