Faith healing in Jesus or a unbelieving world what happened

[hombrexd (hombrexd)]

Since we are fond of quoting scripture:

John 8:32 ~ ..and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Matt.3:7, ~..and when He saw the Pharisees and the Sadducees come to His baptism,
HE SAID UNTO THEM: O GENERATION OF VIPERS....

Matt:23: 12,13,14,23,27 ~ Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees..HYPOCRITES

Matt.23:16,24 ~ Woe unto you...BLIND GUIDES

Matt.23:17 ~ YE FOOLS AND BLIND

Matt.23:33 ~ Ye sepents, ye generation of vipers,
how can you escape the damnation of Hell?

ALL of these words were spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ...i.e. ~ GOD.

When we see problems within the church, we are to:

...preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, REBUKE, exhort
with all longsuffering and doctrine.... 2 Tim. 4:2

Are we not to use Christ as our example?

What is a punk?
Websters defines 'punk' as:
1. a prostitute ( archaic ),
2. an inexperienced person, a novice, a beginner
3. A petty gangster, hoodlum or ruffian
4. A youth used as a homosexual partner
5. related to punk rock, as in a punk rock musician.

You chose to interpret the word 'punk' as a reference to gays,
although it has other meanings.

'Billary'.

As I understand that epoch of time in our nations history,
Hillary was widely believed to be a strong influence in Bills' decision making.
To make reference to her as 'Billary', is neither surprising, nor is it particularly
scandalous or shocking....actually quite tame.
Again, you choose to find a unspoken reference to homosexuality,
and speak of it as though it is factual.

Christianity is a VERY rough religion.
Christianity DOES NOT teach love and togetherness over truth.
Love is defined as ' rejoicing in the TRUTH' ~ 1 Cor. 13:6
It would then follow that Love does NOT rejoice in falsehood.

When light shines in ones eyes,
who dwells in darkness,
the light hurts and exposes.

That is MY paraphrase of John 1:5, and Matt.5:13-15

I have several questions for you....
1. Are you gay?
2. Are you a supporter of the gay movement?
3. Do you support the PC movement above the Word of God?
4. Whose prophesy was given to FA?

[hombrexd (hombrexd)]

First.
The reason I asked you 'who' gave the prophesy against FA,
is because I wanted to know WHO.
You tell me 'The Lord'.
I am assuming that it was then you,
and that you are telling me that 'the Lord' spoke through you.
The thing is.....the FA ministers that you condemn/ed also said the same thing.
That their words were 'annointed'... and others also prophesied in the name of 'the Lord'.
I am sorry, but I am not getting 'the witness'
that what you are saying is true.

Now then...go argue that for a while.

You can no more prove that it was 'the Lord' prophesying against FA,
than you can prove the existence of God to an unbeliever.

Second.
__________________________________________________ _______
quote:
...point being that what Jesus dose is one thing and what Jesus tells the believer to do is another....
__________________________________________________ _______

I see.

So what you are telling me is that God is like an earthly
father who tells his children not to smoke or drink,
but does it himself.

I'm not seeing the purpose of following Christ as an example to us then.

[hombrexd (hombrexd)]

<font color="ff0000">At least Bush is a godly man, not like Clinton proported to be
when he started his preseidency. Look what happen to him.
The views media had him being a religious man by showing him
and Billery coming out of church every Sunday,
but living like the devil the rest of the week.

Bush lives his Christianity, Sunday through Saturday.

He deserves our prayers and support </font>

I see that the content is good,
whether you dislike his reference to 'Billery' or not.
I am not offended.

<font color="ff0000">Mark S. Scaliotti room leader endorsed by Joe brenneman current FA pastor! </font>

Again, not offended.

<font color="ff0000">The unkind and unloving bashing of a president and first lady are unscriptural! </font>

I hardly call that bashing.
Though I also believe that we are to pray for our leaders,
I don't have a problem with what was said, because IT IS TRUE.

What I believe that you are failing to recognize is this:

We do not live in Rome.

We live in a society paid for by the blood of many brave men
to give us not only the freedom of speech, but also a form of government,
where dissent is protected, and we have the right here to vote
and make changes for the good of all.
If God establishes all governments, then this one is no exception.
Sovereignly, if you like, WE have the right as well as the responsibility to be involved
in turning this country towards righteousness.
THAT president AND first lady were a JOKE, and their legacy is one of corruption,
deceit and malignant negligence toward our country,
which also made a mockery of the institution itself, from Bills' adulteries, and overnight
rentals of white house rooms to their final looting of the white house upon his departure.
Bill and Hillary are nothing more than trailer trash, elevated to a position in which
dignity was defined by whatever it was that suited their end goals; i.e. LIBERALISM
and all of it's attendant ungodliness, from abortion to homosexual marriage.
That is the truth of the matter.
I could be far more vulgar, but I am sure that this is already
probably more than you would like to hear.

<font color="ff0000">I was told by current FA leadership since I would not pray for a quick war in Iraq
ñI have the blood of all those casualties on my hands.î </font>

If anyone said that, then I would have to agree with you.
The problem that I see, not only in your perception, but in many others from FA,
as well as other Christian churches, is the failure to recognize that YOU are a free
individual, not only in this country, but before God.
WE can do, think, say,.... whatever we please.
God gives us this freedom, and we have that freedom within this country as well.
I for one, refuse to submit myself to the rule of any man.
So then, why does what anyone say, whether they are right or wrong bother you to this degree?
YOU have the freedom to simply walk away.

<font color="ff0000">my response was at the time ñit is not scriptural to pray for warî
and much better and very scriptural to pray for Peace since it is written
ñblessed are the peace ,makersî </font>

I understand your position, and I respect it.

However, life serves up some harsh realities for us to face.
Where would we be now, if our fathers never fought WW2?
Where would Israel be right now, if they hadn't defended themselves in '49, '56, 67, 73, '84 and now?
I thank God for those men who fought/fight for our freedoms, including our religious freedom,
that we would not have otherwise.
It is an honor, a privilege, and, I believe, a duty, to pray for those men,
who are out there with their lives on the line every day for you and I.

We need...OUGHT...to pray for them; not because someone threatened us to do it,
but because we are enjoying the freedom, that they are buying for us with their lives.

It's the least we can do.

[hombrexd (hombrexd)]

<font color="ff0000">Thanks hombrexd for your insightful answer. </font>

You are welcome.
It is not my intention to be contentious,
nor is it my intention to condemn others.

I love the Lord, and His people as my own family.

The various problems that we have today,
with reference to the faith message,
are practical issues, that are deadly in nature.

How you or I decide to interpret the reasons for why things happen,
seems to be largely a matter of practicality and survival,
versus simple blind obedience to the recitation of scriptures.

Divine Healing.
I believe that it is clearly taught in the scriptures.
Why then do people continue to die of the simplest
things that could be easily cured by medicine?
What is wrong with this picture?
Do you then choose to die, or do you get some medicine,
and continue living to seek the answer?

War.
The radical Islamics and other terrorists would continue to
scourge us, if we did not fight back. What is your recourse?
Do you simply let them kill us all off,
understanding that it must be Gods' divine will, or do you fight back
to save not only your life, but those of your own belief system and values?

We are talking life and death issues here, we are not playing Sunday School,
and I for one, have absolutely NO interest whatsoever in continuing
a religious exercise that has no practical solutions to hard questions.

What then?
We are between a rock and a hard place.
We believe, yet WE NEED.
WE MUST RECEIVE POWER, or the recitation of these scriptures,
is not only baffling to us, but demonstrates to the world around us,
that we really don't have what we say we have,
though we know His Word to be true.
God is glorified through the demonstration of His Word and Power,
which VINDICATES His Word to the world.

This is my personal view, and it is the POWER that we must search for,
not this nit-picking and criticism of one another.

As far as the thing about speaking against rulers goes,
You are correct....it is just that I am not offended by truth.
I am also willing to overlook the occasional tongue slips of
my brothers and sisters, as I am not quite perfect yet either.

Of course, our minds go immediately to that place:
We don't have the power because our lives aren't perfect yet.

I do not believe that would be the criterion for God to give us the power.
I don't see where Peter or the rest of them were perfect, yet they walked in
a realm of faith that defies anything I or probably you have ever seen.
Besides, earning the privilege to be a minister of the power,
would simply be works-based, not faith based.

I also believe that neither you nor I want to blame God for
what appears to be the lack of power in the church.
It then falls to us to ascertain what exactly the problem is.

That is, or should be, our quintessential priority:
Finding out HOW to get plugged into Gods' main circuit,
or what the problem exactly is...however you want to define that.

If we can't demonstrate His Power to the world, and not even to ourselves,
we are not only sad examples, but we are living lives that are not
much different in appearance than any other religious group.

An additional problem that we are encountering now, however,
that complicates this whole idea, is that God has some serious plans
going on right now with reference to the unfolding of end-time events.

How would the unveiling of Gods' power at this time affect the
events and the reactions of the multitudes, with respect to His ultimate
plans and purposes?

In some other ways, I am reminded of the martyrs crying out to God:
How Long?, How Long?, How Long?

What are your thoughts?

[hombre (hombre)]

5-Fold:

It seems as though something happened in your life over the weekend.
I note that in your posts, numbers, 146,147 &amp; 148, that you are thoughtfully
perusing those ideas that I submitted. However, in post # 149, you have become very defensive,
and active in your denunciation of FA, Mark Scallioti and myself.

As I pointed out earlier, I am not interested in pursuing contention
to the point of anger.

My honest opinion of you is that you are a very conscientious person,
and one who is sincere and wants to follow the Word of God.

I don't have a quarrel with you over the issue of non-resistance,
or in regards to 'bashing' the President.

I don't believe that you have seen me 'bash' the sitting President.

Bill Clinton, is no longer President. He is just a man now like you and me.
His 'legacy' and things he did and now does are open to discussion,
and examination under a microscope...for that matter, we also all know within
ourselves when a ruler in power does wrong...we pray for him, because
we want him to have wisdom and rule in righteousness, and we respect
the power he has been given, but it does not mean that we are blind to
the 'truth' of the matter either. Review your text. It is written in the present tense.
It does not say: Submit yourselves to former kings.

You did not see me criticizing the sitting President, Bush.

I see that you have plenty to say about it, however.

I also agree with your assessment of 'Harry Potter'

Would you agree with me that God is more interested in the
Spirit of the law, than in the letter?

I see that the content of what I said is true.

If you find certain descriptive adjectives offensive,
I see a need for a little growth......do you think that
Jesus heard any coarse language while he was
hanging out with publicans and whores?

You heard me right: WHORES.

Does this word offend you?

Life is not rated for general audiences, Fiver.

Neither are the things we personally experience.

At this point, I feel as though you are more interested in condemning
others for their minute legal infractions, than in judging righteousness.

I am very glad indeed that you are not God.

(Message edited by Hombre on September 26, 2005)

[hombre (hombre)]

<font color="ff0000">I donÍt argue.
And its not my position too. </font>

Well, this blog site doesn't have my favorite little smiley eye-roller,
but that is what my response would be.
In addition, I will simply from now on respond point by point,
that way we will know that I or you have not misunderstood.
BTW: WHY did you find it necessary to go on ad infinitum
about this snoozingly ridiculous little issue? You started out
OK but worked ourself into a real dither over it.

<font color="ff0000">You didnÍt understand ,I never suggested anyone condemned the
present administration,,
I said that Scallotii said the current administration are the real Christians
and the former are living like devils,,
Scallotii also said to me He was anointed by the Holy Spirit in knowing
Truth and was picked by Brenneman for that reason,,
I showed he was not anointed by the Holy
Spirit when he said the current administration is true Christianity
by the example of the Harry Potter Christmas. </font>

Yes, I did understand that.
It is also interesting to note that you would
assume an inability on my part to understand
your complex thought processes,
vs your inability to grasp what I have been saying to YOU.
Fiver, NONE of us are any good.
WE are ALL worthy of death.
CHRISTIANS shouldn't even be presidents.
There are simply TOO MANY problem issues to deal with,
as well as political alliances that have to be made and maintained
which compromise convictions.
That Bush is a far better man than Clinton,
is patently obvious to all, except perhaps Democrats,
of whom, I suspect that you are one.
MOST of Christianity today, do not follow the Word, through ignorance,
bad teaching, or rebellion.
WE NEED to pray for them, not bash them, and certainly not
one another, our brethren who have been given so much
in relation to the rest of the church.

Nevertheless, let me ask you a question:
Was Nero a wicked and sinful ruler in Rome?
By answering 'yes' you denounce him.
By answering 'no', you lie.
Which will it be?

<font color="ff0000">Next point
Qoute;
If you find certain descriptive adjectives offensive,
I see a need for a little growth.
End qoute;

>No you and FA and its current leadership
are not acting or exhibiting the Fruits of the
Holy Spirit and you people need a little Growth! <

You really think Harry Potter is trumped by Trailer Trash?
The current is better than the former, thatÍs illogical </font>

Yes. The current leader is undoubtedly far superior to the
former. If you do not agree, then that is a POLITICAL
disagreement.
BTW: Have you sinned today?
If the answer is yes, then you are honest.
If the answer is no, you are a liar.
BTW: You are trashing the current president.

<font color="ff0000">ƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒ..............
Next point.
to FA and its current Leadership
The bad Jokes and immoral statements that were posted at many websites by this leader
was and is not the Fruits of the Holy Spirit and extreme!
And Dr Hobart Freeman taught against this and it is on tape!
Freeman taught Overcomers honor Leadership of a country and not to bash them!
ƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒ. </font>

Huh.
You know, I wasn't offended.
...and I'm sorry, but I think that humor is a good thing.
I can laugh and move on, can you?


<font color="ff0000">Next point.

Hombre

QuoteÍ
I am very glad indeed that you are not God.
End quote.

You are the one acting as God in judging the former administration of this country
and it is unscriptural and sin!
And not honoring ..
Your excusing your self by stating its justified
because they are ñout of officeî is lame,
Former presidents and first ladies are and have always been Honored by this country..
And the scriptures command you to honor them!
And calling them derogatory names
Is Not ,, plain and simpleƒƒ
you claim truth is first in your life? Sounds like you hate!

Is this honoring Leadership ? Absolutely NOT! They are still honored as all former presidents are! </font>

NOW you decide that we are supposed to honor the traditions of this country.
BTW: The scriptures DO NOT DEMAND that I honor Past Presidents.
Oh yeah, I forgot....Clinton is the current President.
WHERE DO YOU LIVE?
Did you answer my Nero question?
Same rules apply here, whether it was 5 years ago or 5,000.

Hey.
For a helpful exercise, try writing a short history about Nebuchadnezzer.
See if you can record his life accurately,
without making any negative statements.


<font color="ff0000">ƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒƒ...................................... ...................
Quote; >minute legal infractions< end quote

What you say is very harsh against this former administration!
Personally attacking these people with very unloving and mean words,,
this is not honoring the leadership of this country,,
and it would not surprise me that you spoke of them this way when they were in officeƒScallotii the FA leader did!
And he still trashes many people with derogatory names! </font>

...are you even listening?
CLINTON IS NOT THE LEADERSHIP OF THIS COUNTRY.
THE END.
BTW: I am so glad that YOU are not in uniform,
defending this country and its' freedoms,
which you are taking for granted right now.

<font color="ff0000">This is the scriptural truth that is missed!

1 Peter 2:13 (KJV) Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake:
whether it be to the king, as supreme;

1 Peter 2:17 (KJV) Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. </font>

PRESENT TENSE.
I hesitate to say MORON, so I won't.
I will simply say: Illiterate.

<font color="ff0000">Hombre you need a lot of Growth!
And need to repent. </font>

FIVER: YOU need to come out from under that fog of religious form,
and wake up to the TRUTH.

<font color="ff0000">The bigger picture is not calling people names ,First to their face , or second behind their Back!
Your excuse of former administration is nonsense in fact , that you are commanded to honor ALL men
And that includes the Former Adminƒ and ALL men means not calling people names and personally attacking them! Look below ALL !!!!

Honor is not personal derogatory name calling

1 Peter 2:17 (KJV) Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.


It is permissible to talk about institutions and states of the world and indirectly.
Such as
Example , demoninations that are marrying Gays are satanic in nature!
See how this is indirectly expressed.

Example;
Presidents of countries that legalize abortion are committing murder!

You can speak of sin and evil indirectly.. Dr Freeman taught this and its biblical
When a person is wrong is bashing personallyƒ

Example
Billy Graham is a satanic Freemason ,,,
;;;;;;;;;

This is a example of bashing,, the facts are Graham never even has been Masonic.. </font>

Thank you, O great one.

Here is an example for you, to demonstrate that I have learned
the proper method of Pharisaic criticism by the avowed master of such.

Here it is:

Certain people who masquerade as religious leaders,
by using indirect insinuations and grammatical forms of language
to denounce others in such a way as to deflect responsibility
from their statements by obscuring their true meanings are
shallow cowards, and furthermore the denunciation of those
who do speak directly then, renders these same people hypocritical.

Here is an example of bashing then, to demonstrate
that I have learned my lesson completely.

Fiver is a weenie.

There, is that right?

I am not called to honor historical figures
I am called to honor the PRESENT king, president, whatever.
.... AND TO PRAY FOR THEM.
BUSH HAS A REAL HARD JOB.
AND HE IS DOING A LOT BETTER THAN CLINTON DID, COULD,
OR EVER WOULD.
CLINTON WAS AND REMAINS TO THIS DAY, A HABITUAL LIAR.
Bush will soon be a historical figure, and then, Fiver, if you want,
you can denounce him some more for his wifes' statement
about Harry Potter.

<font color="ff0000">I appeal to you Hombre to pray that the Lord shows you .

And you can email me,, and also if you want to talk we can open a Paltalk room and
talk on the mic to each otherƒ

The enemy wants Christians to argue and fight, I donÍt go there!
But I do believe its important to learn from our mistakes so I do like to discuss things

Thank youƒ</font>

A thing I have learned about religion is this:
Everybody thinks that they are right.
You are no exception.
This entire thread has been nothing but wasted time and energy,
'discussing' the issue of 'honoring the king', which I have not disagreed with you about.
It seems to me as though, you are more interested in recognition
as an authoritative figure, as someone who wants to be respected,
than in discovering the truth, and that you are far more interested
in finding problems in other people than in self-examination.

BTW: you are not discussing this issue, you are proclaiming
yourself to be the one who defines right and wrong,
in your narrative, as well as by your screen name.

YOU have the most POMPOUS, ARROGANT, EGOTISICAL,
SELF RIGHTEOUS, MANIPULATIVE manner of speaking,
with a FALSE HUMILITY that defies even this descriptive.

Before you try pulling the mote out of my eye,
try pulling the log out of your own.

You know, Brother, I say this in love.

There is some of your own medicine.

Instead of all of this nit-picking Pharisaic indulgence,
we ought to be praying for one another, that GOD
would do His work in each of us, and that we would
recognize that NONE OF US ARE ANY GOOD WITHOUT HIM.

I'm tired of this crap.

God is the only one who is good.

Go wave your wand of destruction at a worthwhile target,
not at your own brothers.

[hombre (hombre)]

Fiver, you are such a head trip.

I am not even going to bother to read the entirety.

Again, you have decided to attack me,
instead of staying on topic.

Now, you have misquoted me, as saying:
'I am a sinner',

When what I said was this:

BTW: Have you sinned today?
If the answer is yes, then you are honest.
If the answer is no, you are a liar.

I say to you AGAIN:

Have you sinned today?
If the answer is yes, then you are honest.
If the answer is no, you are a liar.

No, I am not a 'sinner',
as I presume you are not either.
I am not a 'saint', as in the Roman Catholic sense,
but I am one of the 'called out ones'.
Though legally we are washed in the blood,
we must daily crucify ourselves.
Moment by moment.
If you believe that you have achieved perfection
in every area of your life, and that every thought,
word, &amp; deed/action is only righteousness continually,
not only in the things that you think, say &amp; do,
but let me ask you if you are spending sufficient time in prayer,
study, and with the other saints, such that you are not forsaking the assembly?
Is there any area in your life that you are or have ever been
negligent in since you were saved?
Have you 'made a mistake' since you were saved?
have you misread the 'leading of the Spirit' in any way since you were saved?

If you believe that is so,
not only are you self-deceived,
but you are perhaps the worlds biggest liar.

You might want to Google ' liars' club',
you would make a welcome addition to their religious awards night.

Nevertheless, if indeed you are, in fact, perfect,
I have some things for you to do.

First, I would like you to clear out the hospitals,
simply by passing by the afflicted,
so that your shadow will heal them.

Then I would like you to multiply food for our
brothers and sisters in NO and Texas.
I will pay for your plane ticket.

You should also be able to walk on the water there,
if there are still flooded areas where people need ministry.

The way you think about yourself...really.

BTW: have you done the homework that I gave you?

I'm thinkin' the question was too difficult for your level.
I should've been easier on you; but I really can't resist
asking something difficult from a 5-fold prophet.

You know, Fiver, you know a lot of scriptures that I know.

What you are still failing to wrap your arms around though is this:

What is important is CONTENT, NOT FORM.

You've got the form down pat; the problem is, that is all I see.

[hombre (hombre)]

You don't know me,
or anything about me, Fiver.
You can pray for me if you want,
and of course, I will pray for you.
That is the best that I can do for you.
Good-Bye.

[micah (micah)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

[micah (micah)]

oh wait............uh oh,,, racial profiling???http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[hombre (hombre)]

Fiver:

People like you are why I left FA.

BTW: Micahs' smileys are a little too obscure
in intent to asume that he is agreeing with you.

I would let him clarify first.

Yes, I am free, and you are in bondage to
empty-headed recitations of things you don't understand.

I am not so sure though, that at this point I am done with you.
If you can put some muscle behind your vapid
exhortation style, you might amount to something.

Remember: CONTENT not form.

[micah (micah)]

why dont we let hombre clarify who he is?
Rodriguez?? why hide behind a screen-name?
i use my real name, so whats the big deal?
i dont care if people know who i am, I actually like it. I would post my family tree if i knew it
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif but unfortunately i dont know all of it. But if iether of you knew a lenny gibson, that was my daddy.

[hombre (hombre)]

i use my real name, so whats the big deal?

There is no big deal, Micah,
other than the fact that I am twice your age,
have experienced a lot more than you or
Fiver, and boards like these are open to the world,
which can be used either for or against people
in their real lives.

Wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove.

Not belittling you, Micah, I've read your postings,
and I perceive you to be an honest person, who
honestly wants some real answers, and not simply
someone to vapidly quote verses,
without having had any real life experience.

That is my problem in a nutshell with Fiver.

I was once like Fiver.

Quick to judge others in my self-righteous
quest to turn the world around.

It is VERY easy to quote verses when you are young,
you are healthy and the world is just sitting there for you to conquer;
....however, let a few things fall apart, begin to age,
be forsaken by family, friends, watch people die,
have no answers,.... you know the drill, Micah,
I've read your postings.

Like Job, we suffer, we don't really have answers as to WHY
things have happened, we would like to know WHY, God doesn't have
to tell us WHY..He doesn't really HAVE TO tell us any more than He already has.

Like you, I question WHY?

WHY is it that we are not experiencing Mark 16,
if our lives are lining up, and we believe?

THAT is what I am searching for, not merely the prolific usage of
scripture recitation, and parroting of what we already know,
in order to avoid the harsh reality of compelling life and death questions.

It reminds me much of Gregorian chanting, or the endless repetition
of nuns counting their rosary beads.

FAITH...tried in the fire, is a whole other ballgame.

Moses walked 40 YEARS in the desert...basically ALONE WITH GOD,
to get to the point where God could use him, the way He did.

To confuse head knowledge of scriptures with enduring, overcoming faith,
is a very dangerous thing......something that you and I, have seen all too
frequently in the past.

We do well, to understand exactly WHERE we are at INDIVIDUALLY in the faith:
to know our limits, to examine ourselves realistically, and to
follow the Lord as His grace allows, and our faith allows.

As we age, we begin to understand the depth and riches of Christ,
and come to understand that it is only in His grace that we stand.

THAT is what is amazing.

Fiver, you and I and Micah are nothing.

God is.

[duncan (duncan)]

Hello, all!
It's a beautiful, sunny day here in the South. The air is clear, the sky is blue and the Factnet board is alive and kicking! Recently, my pastor had a Wednesday Bible study that used the following scripture, and knowing how everyone likes to quote scripture, I thought I would pass it along.

Proverbs 6: 16-19 "These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

That seventh one sure is interesting, don't you think?

Duncan

[hombre (hombre)]

....and he that soweth discord among brethren."

That seventh one sure is interesting, don't you think?


Duncan,
I am not sure that I find it interesting.
The problem with speaking cryptically,
is that it can be seen from different angles and interpreted differently.
Duncan, Micah, please be clear and state your intentions and what you mean.
I am not a coward, neither do I shade my thoughts and words
with unclear inferences. I speak plainly, in a way that anyone can understand.
I can also admit it when I am wrong, however, I have yet to see a
logical or practical response from Fiver, with regards to anything I have said,
with reference to the subject of this thread, and the crises that we as believers
have faced in the past, as well as those we face today.

Sorry Fiver. You can't blame the devil for everything.

Fiver, it is not enough to simply:

1. Accuse others.
2. Profusely quote scripture from a-z.
3. Call to repentance.

You began to have some interesting insight in the beginning,
although it was based upon the logic of Jobs' friends.
Show me that you are capable of putting some insightful meat on the table.

May I also call to attention this problem:

(Fivers quote from post #153)
__________________________________________________ _______________

racial profiling yes I admit it!!!!

it looks spanish,,
although it could be a pig latin "Herbom"
referred in the ancient jewish Pseudapigrapha
"thats where Pig latin was developed"....
I also have a Bridge for sale! big one!!LOL!
__________________________________________________ _______________
FIVEFOLDPROPHET:

I find you guilty, of demeaning language
and intention towards one of the anointed ones.

Repent!!! FiveFoldProphet!!!!

Be Saved!!!!!

YOU ARE GOING TO PERISH!!!!

WHOM THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED!!!!

THOSE WHO ARE SAVED DO NOT SIN!!!!!

YOU NEED TO BE SAVED!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

I guess you've been hangin around FA people too long, Fiver.
You've picked up some bad habits.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Well, it was bound to happen, sooner or later,
eventually, you had to crack and reveal your humanity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

That's OK, son.
I forgive you.
You're just growing up, that's all.

Oh, yeah....have a nice day.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[micah (micah)]

show me the real jesus. in your own words and actions. I have read the bible, and I know what it says, so show me, please?

[hombre (hombre)]

Antinomianism.

The belief that the Christian is liberated from the observance of moral laws
when grace is present, or very simply, that a person can do whatever they want,
because the sins are already paid for by Christs' blood.

This is not what I believe or hold to, Fiver.

But rather I quote our Lord:

After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven , Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
~ Matt. 6: 9-15

And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any:
that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father
which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. ~ Mark 11:25-6

First, let me say this:
The lost or unsaved, do not call God their 'Father'.
Their father is the devil.
This then, is a prayer and an admonition to believers.
It is also, an undeniable fact, spoken by The Lord himself,
that believers will sin, and that we should show the same
forgiving spirit towards one another, that He shows toward us.

I am not condoning or advocating a license to sin,
I am saying YOU, I and EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN
I HAVE EVER MET commit sins, not that we want to,
not that it is now in our nature to do such,
as we are now born of incorruptible seed, but an understanding
of the DOCTRINE OF SIN is required to understand what I am saying.

In short, sin is defined in a multitude of categories, and
includes things like negligence and simply failing to
'hit the mark' so to speak.

There is none good, no not one.

Even as believers, we must rely on His grace and mercy,
in our walk toward perfection.

Fiver, you WILL stumble and fall on occasion.

My point with you in this entire discussion has been and still is:
Merely reciting verses, will not bring about maturity by itself
( I am not going into the principle of confession here ).
One needs to live in this world, being confronted on a daily basis
with choices, making decisions regularly, in order to move forward.

BTW: I forgive you for jumping to conclusions with me,
and being hasty to pass judgement on me.

The Lord cause His grace to shine upon you.

[duncan (duncan)]

Hey,Five!

It’s been a while since we have had a chance to discuss some issues. Your brief hiatus did you some good. When you first came back to the board a week or so ago, I enjoyed your posts and thought you made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I am having a hard time following you on your most recent posts. I’m not sure what point you are trying to drive home. You seem to have become adversarial in your posts, and I’m not sure why. It may be that I am misinterpreting your posts, as it is hard to sometimes understand someone when you can see facial expressions or hear the tone in their voice. The following are a couple of items that I am not clear on:

1) I agree with you that we are not sinners. We have been justified in God’s sight through the washing of Christ’s blood. That does not mean we do not still sin. This is the point, I believe, Hombre was trying to get across. If we were perfect, then we would be caught up like Enoch or Elijah. However, the Word states that we are to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12) Based on that statement, it sounds like salvation is a journey, not a destination. We will not be perfected until we stand before Christ.

In addition, please read Rom 7:14 – 25. In these verses, Paul makes the following quotes, “…but I am carnal, sold under sin.” “Now then, it is no more I that do it, but the sin that dwelleth in me.” “…in me (that is my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing.” “…but the evil which I would not, that I do.” “…it is no more I that do it, but the sin that dwelleth in me.” “…evil is present with me.” “ O wretched man that I am!”

It sounds to me that Paul stated over and over that he sinned, even though he didn’t want to. Does that mean Paul had a negative confession? Did Paul have a seducing spirit?

2) I agree that we are to respect and pray for those who are in authority over us. When Clinton was the president, he was in authority over us, and as hard as it was, we were to pray for him. However, he is no longer in authority over us. He is just a lost soul in need of salvation. He and his wife. By professing a faith in God, they have brought shame and reproach upon the name of Jesus. I do not have a problem calling them out on their sin, because they will have to answer for it one day.

Just my thoughts.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Thanks for the prompt, and well thought out response.

For the most part, I agree with you about name calling. One clarification I would like to make is about the name Billary. I have used this term on numerous occasions, but not as a name directed at Hillary Rodham. It was the combination of the names Bill and Hillary, because I think they ruled together (or she wanted to have as much say so as Bill). I would liken this to the tabloids referring to Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez as "Beniffer."

Secondly, I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Romans 7. I do agree that we are set free from the "bondage of sin." I am no longer bound by sin or by satan. That does not mean, however, that I can't and don't sin. When Paul was speaking in Romans 7, he was using present tense language, not past tense. He was stating that he currently does things he doesn't want to do and doesn't do things he wants to do. He was not saying that it used to happen, but rather that it was currently happening.

As a Christian, this fact gives me great comfort. It shows me that someone as strong in their faith as Paul went through the same daily struggles as me. Does this mean that I want to sin? As Paul stated, "God forbid." What it does mean is that I, like Paul, sometimes fall short of the mark. It is then up to me to recognize my sin, confess it, ask forgiveness and then move on.

I hope this makes sense.

Duncan

[duncan (duncan)]

Five, thanks for the response. The following is my answer to your questions, although I am not sure if you will agree.

1) If Gay Fivefold asks for forgiveness and asks Jesus to come into his life, I believe that he is immediately justified and transformed in Christ.

2) If Five falls into sin the next day, then they should confess their sin and ask for forgiveness.

3) If Five continues to make gay love almost everyday, then he should confess his sin and ask forgiveness each time he sins. In reality, however, if Fiver still wants to surf the hershey highway on a daily basis, I have to question whether he was truly saved. He should examine his life, because if he was truly saved, he would not want to makeout with boys.

4) If this person truly believed in Jesus when they asked him into their heart, then they will spend eternity in heaven upon their death.

Here is my support for this argument. First of all, Jesus told his disciples to forgive their sinning brother seventy times seven. Why would Jesus ask his disciples to do something that he himself would not do?

Secondly, if our salvation is dependent upon what we do (such as the gay person falling back into sin), then our salvation becomes a works salvation, and not salvation by grace (we might as well go say a few “Hail, Marys”). If my salvation is dependent upon anything other than asking Jesus to come into my life (which I wouldn’t have even done except the Holy Spirit drew me), then I have taken away the glory from God and put it upon myself. Then I could tell everyone that the reason I am saved is because of all the good things I’ve done, not because God had mercy upon me, a sinner.

Thanks.

(Message edited by duncan on November 08, 2005)

[hombre (hombre)]

This is the point, I believe,
Hombre was trying to get across.

Thank you, Duncan.
It would appear that what I am saying is clear enough
for those who want to understand.

Therefore.....
let us move on then from the first principles......

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,
Why the sudden change in attitude towards me?? Why would you make a statement regarding me promoting gays? You were the one that asked me "the big question." I merely answered the question you gave to me. Since coming to this board, I have always been very open with my thoughts and beliefs. You can pose any questions to me, and I will try to answer them to the best of my abilities. Unfortunately, your rebuttal to my answer was lacking. Your only argument is that Freeman never taught this, and that you follow Jesus. I am sincerely glad that you follow Jesus, since I just gave you a quote from Jesus regarding forgiveness. As for Dr. Freeman, I could care less what he did or did not teach. I am an adult and capable of searching the scriptures for myself.

On another front, Hombre mentioned it a few posts back, and I am now beginning to wonder myself. You seem to be fixated on homosexuality. You have continued to bring it up in several posts, such as using the word “punk” and your question to me regarding gays. My question to you is this: Are you struggling with the sin of homosexuality? Based upon my last post, you know that I believe you can be forgiven of your sins, no matter how many times you slip back into homosexual ways. If this is the case, just confess your sins and ask for forgiveness.

Please let Hombre and me know, and we will be more than happy to join with you in prayer.

Thanks for the continued dialogue.

Duncan

[duncan (duncan)]

That's nice to know, but it still doesn't answer the questions at hand: 1) Why the sudden change in attitude, and 2) Would you like me to pray for you?

Thanks.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,

I am truly sorry that our discussion had to degenerate to the level that you have called into question my salvation. The one thing I can tell you is that my salvation is based upon the unmerited favor of Jesus Christ. It is not based on human works, as you seem to be advocating. If that is not your position, then I have misinterpreted you.

Based on your pontifications, it sounds as though you adhere to the Armenian doctrine espoused by the Methodists, that you can be saved and lost and saved again. If that is the case, then I am afraid we will never be able to agree. I believe that once you have acknowledged your sins and asked forgiveness, the Holy Spirit indwells you and will never leave you. If this is contrary to your theology, then we will have to agree to disagree.

When true salvation occurs, it is not an excuse to do what you want to (i.e. to sin), but rather it changes your “want to.” Things that used to appeal to me, I no longer want to do. In other words, my “want to” has changed.

It is unfortunate that you have come to this board to sow discord among the brethren. I know that Hombre thought I may have cryptically posted that scripture for him, but I did not. There was nothing but discord on this board when I first joined. It was brought on by your ranting at Mark1124. When you left for a period, the board went back to a thoughtful discussion of our past dealings with FA and how we have overcome some of the hurt we all felt.

Since you have returned, your personal attacks against everyone on this board have started again. It has even reached the point to where you have brought into question the salvation of others. I did not realize that you believe yourself to be God.

Since you claim to know the thoughts and the intentions of the heart (and since the Bible states that only God can do that), you must be God! Not only that, you have repeatedly claimed that you are perfect (which only Jesus is), then logic tells us that you must be Jesus. And since you are attempting to convict men of their sins (which is the job of the Holy Spirit), then you must be the Holy Spirit, as well.

Is this really what you believe? That's the way it comes across to the rest of the posters.

[duncan (duncan)]

Five,

Thanks for showing us how well versed you are in the ways of homosexuality. Since you were the one who originally brought it up, I am going to stick with my original observation and belief that you are, indeed, a homosexual.

The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination to God. It is stated in both the old and the new testaments. By allowing myself to be dragged into your little homosexual world by answering your simple question has taught me a valuable lesson.

I truly hope and pray that you find the peace you are seeking from this abominable lifestyle that you are struggling with.

Proverbs 26:4 states, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."

Based on this scripture, I've decided to end this line of discussion with you.

As for Hombre, or anyone else desiring logical discussion, I would be more than happy to have a discussion that doesn't require me to pull out my old Psychology 101 textbook for tips on handling people with serious mental deficiencies.

Have a great evening all and "Roll Tide" - Alabama just beat Florida 31 to3!

Duncan

[duncan (duncan)]

Hombre,

Do you currently know anyone at FA, including the leadership? You may be closer than I, because I do not currently know anyone at FA, nor have I ever seen or heard of any leaders at FA. In fact, I don't even know where they are located.

Hombre, I appreciate your thoughts and posts. It sounds like you have spent a lot of time in the Word and can think for yourself. I always appreciate your thoughts and insights, even when I occasionally disagree (not very often!)

I trust you understand where I am coming from regarding sin. Based on your posts, I believe you do. I do not believe salvation is a license to sin. I believe that I stated in one of my posts that your desires change when you are saved. If they don't, then I would have to question the sincerity of their salvation.

Please keep in your thoughts any homosexual posters on this site. My hope is that they can be free from their destructive lifestyle.

Have a great day, Hombre.

Cougar, shoot me an email sometime.

Duncan

[duncan (duncan)]

Hombre,

I don't know why I didn't catch it before, but it is now as plain as the nose on my face. It looks like we have a "dominionist" in our midst (aka - "Manifest Sons of God", aka "Joel's Army", aka "lost tribe of Ephraim", which equals false doctrine).

Hombre, I'm sure you have read about these folks, so I won't bore you with their doctrine. This just explains a lot of things now.

Duncan

[hombre (hombre)]

Duncan:
Thanks for showing us how well versed you are in the ways of homosexuality.
Since you were the one who originally brought it up,
I am going to stick with my original observation and belief
that you are, indeed, a homosexual.

Hombre:
ROFL!!!!!!!

Duncan:
Proverbs 26:4 states, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
Based on this scripture, I've decided to end this line of discussion with you.


Hombre:
1. Did you catch that from my post,
2. Did the Lord remind you of that, or
3. Has fiver driven you to see that?

It is the same conclusion I reached.

I once had a talking parrot.
He was entertaining every once in a while,
and even occasionally said things that were relevant to the subject at hand.
Of course, these were the random musings of a bird, and their hit and miss
relevance was related to the fact that he really didn't comprehend
the essence of the things I taught him.
It would be like applying numbers to talking points and then
letting someone throw dice. When the number then would come up,
it would either be relevant or not, but mostly, not.

Duncan:
As for Hombre, or anyone else desiring logical discussion,
I would be more than happy to have a discussion that
doesn't require me to pull out my old Psychology 101 textbook
for tips on handling people with serious mental deficiencies.

Hombre:
I see that you have reached the same conclusion.
It is unfortunate that this fellow apparently has the ability
to alienate and frustrate anyone who attempts to converse with him.
Do you think that Fiver is a human?
Could Fiver really be just a loop program,
that someone uses to generate responses from us?

Duncan:
Do you currently know anyone at FA, including the leadership?
You may be closer than I, because I do not currently know anyone at FA,
nor have I ever seen or heard of any leaders at FA.
In fact, I don't even know where they are located.

Hombre:
No, I do not, although they are doing some good work in digitizing
Dr Freemans school tapes, and have compiled the Biblical Theology course into book form.
I haven't been up there since the mid 80s, and as far as I know, they are still in the big
pre-engineered steel building, but maybe not. I don't know.
I can't listen in to their conversations and so forth on the web, because I'm a mac guy,
and the program doesn't function for me.

Duncan:
Hombre, I appreciate your thoughts and posts.
It sounds like you have spent a lot of time in the Word and can think for yourself.
I always appreciate your thoughts and insights,
even when I occasionally disagree (not very often!)

Hombre:
Well, thank you very much.
It is nice to talk with a person who has the ability to discuss things rationally.
I have spent a lot of time in the Word, and the Lord continues to open my eyes.
It has a lot of levels, but the principles remain the same.
I am always coming back to the basics, and it still amazes me how many people out there
do not have anywhere near the wealth that we have. That not only makes us responsible,
it also makes us targets. We need to pray for one another, for strength and endurance.
I greatly miss my brothers and sisters from the old days.
I know that many have, and are still, struggling with issues;
we desperately need to help one another heal, before we can grow any further.
That is why I am posting here.

Duncan:
I trust you understand where I am coming from regarding sin.
Based on your posts, I believe you do.
I do not believe salvation is a license to sin.
I believe that I stated in one of my posts that your desires change when you are saved.
If they don't, then I would have to question the sincerity of their salvation.

Hombre:
Yeppers, I agree.
I like the way my girlfriend says it:
I don't want to sin, because it affects my relationship with Christ.

Duncan:
Please keep in your thoughts any homosexual posters on this site.
My hope is that they can be free from their destructive lifestyle.

Hombre:
Do I have to?

...oh yes...I momentarily forgot......

..in meekness, instructing them that oppose themselves,
if perhaps, God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth,
and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,
who are taken captive by him at his will.

Duncan:
Have a great day, Hombre.

Hombre:
You too, Duncan.

[duncan (duncan)]

Hombre,

That response has to rank in the top five responses I have received on this board. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. As for my reference to Proverbs 26:4, I was unaware that you used that verse, as well. The verse just came to my mind after beating my head against a brick wall for the fiftieth time. I guess God was finally able to knock some sense into me.

If you don't mind me asking, what age range do you fall into? From what I've gathered, you sound like you were and adult during the peak years of FA. I am currently in my mid-thirties, so, obviously, I was a pre-teen and a teenager during my time there.

As for Biblical Theology, my mother purchased the MP3 set of Biblical Theology about a year ago. I have been able to borrow several of the cds, and have agreed with 90% of what I have heard. As far as I am concerned, I think FA theology was bery good (that's not to say that I didn't agree with a few points). For some reason, however, opinions began to take on the form of theology. I'm not sure how it ever got that far. I have to blame the people for taking it that way, but I would be remiss if I didn't hold Dr. Freeman responsible for encouraging it (or at least doing nothing to discourage it).

Finally, as for the location of FA - I don't believe they are meeting in the building anymore. I seem to recall that, after the death of the owner, Don Nie, his children were fighting over trying to sell the building. I'm not sure what ever became of that situation.

Thanks again for the words of encouragement.

Duncan

[healed (healed)]

Actually after reading FiveFoldFools several post and Bro Hombres ridiculous rants, I think these two clowns should be best freinds.

[hombre (hombre)]

Duncan:
If you don't mind me asking, what age range do you fall into?

Hombre:
I was saved in 1977, when I was 24.
I attended FA outreaches until around '86.
That makes me 52, now.

Duncan:
As far as I am concerned, I think FA theology was bery good
(that's not to say that I didn't agree with a few points).
For some reason, however, opinions began to take on the form of theology.
I'm not sure how it ever got that far.
I have to blame the people for taking it that way,
"but I would be remiss if I didn't hold Dr. Freeman responsible
for encouraging it (or at least doing nothing to discourage it).

Hombre:
What exact points are you talking about?
IMO, the Biblical theology course is dead-on, and the
companion reading material that Hobart recommended
was Bancrofts' Christian Theology, which could get fairly heady.
I don't believe that in that particular class, there was any
personal opinion involved, and again IMO, that was a
extremely good foundation class for any Christian.

With reference to other things becoming like theology,
I would have to say that for the most part,
the entirety of the five-fold ministry, pretty much
avoided situations where the relationship between them
and the general population of believers would become
compromised to the point that we might take them for granted.
I think that they applied the principle of 'familiarity breeds contempt'
or ' a prophet is not without honor, except in his own country,
and among his own people' to be the guiding light in that respect.
With that in mind then, it became, IMO, very easy for them to be ignorant,
of the sort of 'society' that was being formed outside of their
pastoral enclave. If they were not confronted with what was going on
among the general populace of FA on a day to day basis, as the 'society' was
'evolving' into what it became, not only were they ignorant of WHAT they were creating,
or what OTHERS within the assembly were creating as a Christian 'world',
IMO, they also became innocent of doing anything except what they believed was their
calling; i.e. preaching an uncompromising word.
Whether one can argue that this was consciously done, with that as a motive,
would be something we could argue ad infinitum. None of us know other mens' hearts.
Personally, I tend to believe after going to 3 meetings a week for 9+ years,
being on Hobarts, Steves, and Bruces automatics, plus miscellaneous others,
and all the Indpls. seminars, I believe that they were as sincere in trying to bring
into the lives of believers, not JUST an uncompromising word, but one that would
transform our lives through FAITH in an unlimited God who wants to bless His children.
I failed to see then, and still do, any trace of conscious malignant deception in any of them.
If as some want to say, that WE, the followers were deceived by the ministry, then
I would have to say that the ministry was also deceived.
Howbeit, that was not, and is not the case...again, IMO.

Something I said earlier in this thread, bears repeating:
Moses was 40 when he went out into the Sinai.
He was 80...EIGHTY...before he was able to be used by God
in the way that he was. I wonder...as I meditate on that,
about the solitude of a man alone in the desert with no one
but God as his companion. It strikes a chord within me,
that confirms to my spirit, that FAITH requires a commitment,
and a personal walk with God, that defies the average conventions
of marshmallow sunday school Christianity, who have nothing better to
offer up to us as solutions for lifes' problems than resignation to
the inevitable.

THAT is what intrigues and drive me.
NOT that I want to twist Gods arm into doing whatever I want,
BUT RATHER the utilization of MY FAITH in GOD, to achieve
WHAT HE WANTS FOR US.

You see, Duncan, I am not in the slightest bit interested in
having a religion. I am interested in a relationship with
the risen Christ. If it is so, that He rose from the dead,
and that He IS God, and that His sacrifice, BOUGHT for us,
not only our eternal salvation from the second death,
but a complete salvation from Adams' curse, and as Paul says:
WE ARE JOINT HEIRS with Christ, then the only thing that is left
for us to do, is to claim and take back from the devil,
what is rightfully ours; our inheritance that Christ gave His life for,
to give to us.

IMO, it is perfectly clear that the examples He gave us while He was here,
regarding the utilization of OUR faith, were intended to serve precisely
as that: EXAMPLES. Without reciting the entirety of them,
this one will suffice.
In the boat, on Galilee, when it was sinking, and the disciples were
full of fear, and asked the age-old question: 'Don't you care that we are about to die?'
Jesus simply stood up, COMMANDED the sea and sky to be still, sat down and then proceeded
to ask THEM: 'WHERE is YOUR faith?
That is what we find, over and over again in the gospels.
Jesus upbraiding people for their lack of faith, or commending them because of it.
Faith for deliverance, faith for daily needs, faith for healing.
...as it is written: 'the just shall live BY FAITH'.

Not preaching at you, Duncan, or at anybody else who reads this,
simply relating what the Bible DOES say, and what WE as believers
are confronted with, concerning HOW we are told to live our lives,
by the Lord Himself.

Now,..... whether or not one wants to blame Hobart el alius, for simply
bringing these to our attention, or Jesus, for being who the Bible says He was/is,
....... that is for every individual to judge for themselves...it is a matter of FAITH.

Given then this sort of material, who can then conclude, whether it was Hobarts
responsibility for teaching this, or the fault lies with the mere existence of such a word?

Many want to turn a blind eye to these sorts of passages in the Bible,
and sink back into a easier way, that is not so confrontational,
or some will confront it, yet excuse it's existence by explaining it away,
as not for today, or any variety of explanations.

The problem with doing so, however, is that we then end up
with a religion that is devoid of any real power to affect real changes
in real peoples lives, and a skeleton of religious form is all that is left.
Look around.
One has to only attend almost any church in Anytown, USA, for a week or two
to see that the only thing being taught, is religious busy-ness masquerading
in the form of virtue. A works-based religion.
If I do this, then I will be fulfilling my role as a Christian.
Don't get me wrong: it is all well and fine that Christians
are reaching out and helping others in need; however, if that is
the depth of their understanding of what God has offered to us,
it is desperately lacking.

What I see in the NT is a loser, Peter, who has somehow,
tapped into the reality of the power that God wants us to walk in,
so that people lay their sick out on the streets, if by chance,
Peters SHADOW might touch them, and they be healed.

Historical stories or reality, Duncan?

I have seen just enough, to BELIEVE that it is reality, not fantasy.

FA and Hobart, IMO, were not teaching something unattainable,
or untrue, IMO it was people who had not matured in the desert
before the face of God, who simply were not able to either cram
a lifetime of spiritual learning and wisdom into a few very busy years,
or lacked the motivation or conviction to do so.

I am not excusing myself here, or saying that I have all the answers.
I don't know WHY Hobart died, but neither do I know WHY Elisha
died of the sickness that he died of. He had enough faith to
raise the dead himself, why wasn't he healed?

If I could call down Jesus Christ Himself to the earth, to stand before us,
and prove His existence and the verity of His word, I would.

Perhaps the best hard evidence of the reality of the claims
made by the Bible to be the Word of God I have seen to date,
can be found in an archaeological survey, that has turned up
the coral encrusted remains of multitudes of Egyptian chariot
remains scattered in a straight path along a pathway, through
the Red Sea; which pathway, on the Egyptian side begins at
a make-it or break-it broad beach area, encompassed by sheer rock cliffs,
providing escape only backwards, to which would have been certain death
at the hands of Pharaoh, or straight into the sea. At that site, there is a natural
underwater land bridge or ridge, that stretches across the red sea to Saudi Arabia,
culminating at a mountain which has, incidentally, a burnt top, a cleft rock,
with signs of water erosion at the base of the cleft, and a raw, rough, stone
alter below, bearing petroglyphs of that period representing Egyptian cattle.

You may read about this here:
http://http://www.anchorstone.com/content/view/133/53/ (http://www.anchorstone.com/content/view/133/53/)

The film that was made has far more visual info however,
and to me, is capable of turning a believers faith into an article of reality.

You can purchase the tape from Campus Crusade.

http://www.campuscrusade.com/College_Career/Personal_Growth/exodus.htm

Back to the issue.
What IMO I see/saw was a point at which Hobart died, and the church
began a sort of wilderness wandering, of which some turned back to Egypt,
others stood around baffled, and others continue to search for
relevance, truth and the continuance of God in their lives.
To date, a Joshua, has not yet arisen.
I say this all, figuratively, and metaphorically.

That is the road I have closen for myself:
To KNOW God, not just theories or stories about Him.

[duncan (duncan)]

Wow, Hombre!

That was some sermon. Where can I sign up to get on your mailing list?

After reading your post, there is very little I can write that hasn't already been written. I think you hit a great point regarding the ministers being removed from the "society" of the church. I believe that as a shepherd of the flock, Dr. Freeman should have been less removed. How can a shepherd lead a flock unless he knows them? By removing himself, he took upon himself this air that elevated him above everyone else. Many people didn't see him as a fellow Christian and a fellow human. The only things most people knew were what he told them from the pulpit. By mingling with a congregation, a pastor can let people know that he is human, just like them, and that he is subject to the same temptations. How many people knew that he did miniature wood carvings of people? How many people knew that he loved cold peach pie? The only reason I know is because my parents were close to him and his wife, June. The majority of people thought that when he woke up he would go to his study and open the Bible and then close it when it was time for bed. Of course, these are just my thoughts.

You also questioned with which points I disagreed. Hopefully, I was not misunderstood, because I think his theology was outstanding. The one point that comes to my mind was his view of the rapture. He always made it a point to say that the rapture is only for overcomers, and that all Christians would not be raptured. I totally disagree with this interpretation. I believe that Christians, by their very nature, are overcomers. I believe the Bible teaches that the rapture is for the church, and that the tribulation will be to restore the nation of Israel to right-standing with God(i.e. "the time of Jacob's trouble").

Since you put me on the spot, that is the only doctrinal issue I can think of off the top of my head in which I disagree. If I went back through the sermons, I may find one or two more in which my interpretation differs.

Thanks again for the post. This is very stimulating!

Duncan

[hombre (hombre)]

Duncan:
I believe that as a shepherd of the flock, Dr. Freeman should have been less removed.
How can a shepherd lead a flock unless he knows them?
By removing himself, he took upon himself this air that elevated him above everyone else.
Many people didn't see him as a fellow Christian and a fellow human.

Hombre:
Well, that was his prerogative.
I am neither sure it was wrong, based upon their thinking,
nor am I sure that it was right, based upon the way
that Jesus lived day to day with his disciples.
On one hand, he became a celebrity figure,
that had he fellowshipped more with us,
he would've ben so swamped with everything from
genuine followers to religious groupies,
that he wouldn't have had time to do what he did.
The radio ministry, his books, his sermons at the glory barn,
his own wife and family and finally his hobbies.
I don't know that I would be able to do that either.
The message that he taught was one of an individuals'
personal responsibility toward his own Christian walk with God,
and I believe that he simply expected others to make their own lives...he did. I
n addition, there is the fact that he was an older, more mature man,
and really, he probably simply wasn't interested in hangin out with a bunch of kids.
I mean, when you get to be my age, you have seen a lot more,
and less surprises you or interests you. Personally, I tend to dismiss things
fairly rapidly if it is common, or I consider it to be common.
Not that I am effete or a snob, it's just that
you become jaded to things of little consequence.
Hobart was a VERY deep thinker.
I am going to excuse him on those bases.
For the other guys, however, I'm less sure.
Nevertheless, how much is enough, and the fact remains,
that the sheer volume of ministry needs or desires
would have exceeded the ability of those guys to produce.
Again, I go back to individual responsibility, for ones own needs.
I also think that the school teachings were something
that should have been an ongoing continuous
effort, instead of a one time shot by Hobart.
They could have been taught by any number of people
to the newbie hordes that began to attend later.
That would have created a more open atmosphere with which
those people could have begun to have access
to an older person with more experience.
In my city, that was an impossibility, due to the lack of a building,
and the persecution that kept us running from one rental location to another.
Thanks, Channel 6, 8, 13, Indianapolis Star &amp; News.
Anyway.....
We could go on about that forever.
In my case, our meeting had a local pastor, that WAS very accessible,
that we all knew personally, and all knew his own problems and so forth.
Perhaps that is one reason that I also remain positive about
my experience. We WERE like a large extended family.
So much so, that when one person hurt, the others came to their aid.
.....we didn't think twice about it...it was just the right thing to do.
For the majority of us, our brothers and sisters in the Lord were
a far tighter group than our own blood families, some of which persecuted us.

One thing that I really disliked about FAs' new gigantic building,
was that it seemed as though its immensity alienated and disassociated
people from one another. Whenever mikes went up for spiritual gift ministry,
to me, that was the beginning of the end. The mikes were a practical solution,
however, they intimidated people who were just either beginning to know
what it was like to function in spiritual gifts.
All of a sudden, we/they weren't a family any more, it was IMO,
this huge gathering of humanity that could have included anyone from anywhere
with any possible collection of beliefs and ideas.
No longer one mind, one accord; just this huge mass of people.
Who could possibly tell what was going on with that person
200 yards away that you had never seen before?
I have read on this forum, about people who gave up all,
and moved there, only to feel entirely like strangers.
It makes sense.
They were.
IMO, local bodies of believers are what is taught in the NT,
and there is a reason for it.



Duncan:
The one point that comes to my mind was his view of the rapture.
He always made it a point to say that the rapture is only for overcomers,
and that all Christians would not be raptured.
I totally disagree with this interpretation.
I believe that Christians, by their very nature, are overcomers.
I believe the Bible teaches that the rapture is for the church,
and that the tribulation will be to restore the nation of Israel to right-standing with God
(i.e. "the time of Jacob's trouble").

Hombre:
Well, neither you nor I can say anything definitively with reference to that,
because it hasn't happened yet, but there are a lot of others who agree with Hobarts view,
and not because they are former members of the Glory Barn.
Have you seen the best selling series of fiction books by Tim LaHaye called 'Left Behind'?
I am not writing a book or movie review, or testifying to it in any way, other than to say
that there is a large percentage of Christianity who do believe that many will be 'left behind'.
I happen to be one of them, not based upon what someone else says,
but based upon the things that Jesus and Revelation says.

1. Matt. 25:1-13. The parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins.
ALL were virgins. ALL had lamps. NOT all were ready. HALF were left behind.
Jesus leaves the responsibility to the believer to watch and be ready for His return.

2. Luke 17:30-36. In the day that the Son of Man shall be revealed..
...one shall be taken, the other one left.

3. Revelation 12, The manchild birthed from the church, and caught up to the throne of God,
with the general church left behind.

You may know of a guy named Gordon Lindsey, a Pentecostal preacher from Texas,
who wrote a good many books published by 'Christ for the Nations'.
He wrote the same thing before Hobart taught it.
I think if you go back further, you will continue to find that doctrine among full-gospel people.

I also believe that the people of Israel are a separate issue,
and are treated separately from the church;
that Jacobs' troubles, are a reference not only to the tribulation as a whole,
but also to the specific time period after the Abomination of Desolation,
in which the temple is desecrated, and the wrath of the Anti-Christ is released
upon Israel. That is where Jesus' prophecy about
fleeing from the housetops and not looking back comes into play.

In conclusion, I think that one has to prayerfully read and consider very carefully
those types of things, that are veiled in such powerful visual metaphors, comparing them
back and forth to what the OT has to say about it as well.
Obviously, I think my view is correct, and you think yours is also.
But all we can really do is wait and see.

[duncan (duncan)]

Hombre,

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, even the ones in which we disagree. I promise I won't prophecy against you for not agreeing with me on every topic!!

It sounds as though your fellowship was special. I think that being part of the "home church," so to speak, was a lot more formal than the other locations. We could go back and forth on that topic, but I think it would just be re-hashing everything that's already been said.

As for the rapture, I understand your scripture references and appreciate them. I think the difference in our interpretation is that those that are left behind, in my opinion, are not truly saved. I believe they are the ones that have been playing church, because that was the way they were raised. However, they never experienced that life-altering experience of receiving Christ.

As always, this is just my interpretations.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[hombre (hombre)]

Duncan:
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts,
even the ones in which we disagree.
I promise I won't prophecy against you
for not agreeing with me on every topic!!

Hombre:
Thanks, Duncan.
Yer OK.
No point in arguing that issue anyway.

Duncan:
It sounds as though your fellowship was special.
I think that being part of the "home church," so to speak,
was a lot more formal than the other locations.
We could go back and forth on that topic,
but I think it would just be re-hashing everything
that's already been said.

Hombre:
You're probably right.
It was a special group of people that I still dearly love.

[hombre (hombre)]

Whatever, Mr. false prophet.

I am no longer interested in wasting time with you.

[mscaliotti (mscaliotti)]

I second that

[fivefoldapostle (fivefoldapostle)]

Woe unto those who touch God's anointed servants and come against Faith Assembly and it's leadership. Your ranting against God's ministers will not prosper. Repent, for you are not fighting against God's servants but against God Himself. Your anger against God's servants will come back to you seven fold if you do not repent.

[hombre (hombre)]

Quote from Fiver ( the prophet...uh..well...he thinks so....)

you cant do what you say because your in the flesh
and your flesh rules your minds

walk the talk and talk the walk!
your words mean nothing!

like your words of faith,, i,m gonna run to paltalk and get you banned
run to the arm of flesh to do your revenge
in the flesh trusting flesh
words of faith? hog wash!
------------------------------------------------

Hombre:
Hows come 'ol Fiver keeps deleting his posts?

[hombre (hombre)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

Ho-hum.

[fivefoldapostle (fivefoldapostle)]

Woe unto those who touch God's anointed servants and come against Faith Assembly and it's leadership. Your ranting against God's ministers will not prosper. Repent, for you are not fighting against God's servants but against God Himself. Your anger against God's servants will come back to you seven fold if you do not repent. Repent or you will be smitten with a curse.

[cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)]

I haven't posted in several months, but you guys are like a soap opera. You can miss 3 months and still have an idea of what's going on. Healed is still on the warpath, Mark and Five are still going at it, etc. I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts, but it is nice to see that there was an occasional post of substance. Good day to all.

[hombre (hombre)]

BAD SPELLING, GRAMMAR &amp; PUNCTUATION!!!!

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your the real Church that everyone just cant wait to follow
end quote.



fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
this is the most evil and vial language!
end quote.



fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your wicked and should repent!
end quote.


fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
cougar ,your just as bad for going along with this evil!
end quote.



fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your "full of the devil!" just like the rest of those "socalled current FA leaders"
end quote.

______________________________________________

NAME CALLING!!!!!!

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your a liar and your words here prove it!
end quote.



fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your "full of the devil!" just like the rest of those "socalled current FA leaders"
end quote.




fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
I believe it Hombre the way you embrace these evil sick men'
who talk satanic and make demonic statements
your right at home with your evil friends
these people have no relationship with the teaching of Dr Hobart Freeman and are deceivers!
You current Faith Assembly socalled Leadership may have hyjacked Freemans tapes
and are selling them,, but your deceivers and full of the devil!
end quote.


__________________________________________________ _____________

You had better repent!
.....show me one Dr Freeman tape that teaches this kind of behavior!
DR Freeman would be ashamed!
and I know Jesus is!


Hey.

How do you like me now?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

You know, you haven't listened to a word I've said to you,
or learned a single thing about anyone here.
You continue to play your stupid little power game,
and spit back all your referenced out of context crapola
that no one is interested in hearing.

So you get what you asked for.

You want to play Gods' little prophet?

Here's a nice prophecy for you to think about,
it is found in the 'book of Revelation'

ALL DECEIVERS ( etc.) SHALL FIND THEIR PART
IN THE LAKE THAT BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE.
THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

THAT WOULD INCLUDE BELIEF IN,
AND TEACHING HERESY/FALSE DOCTRINE
ABOUT JESUS DYING SPIRITUALLY.

__________________________________________________ ___

BTW: I sense a note of condescension, anger and
hope for impending judgment in your phony desire
for us all to 'be blessed'.

Anyway,.....: 'Be blessed young man,
and may all your dreams be of things sweet and nice'.

__________________________________________________ ____

Did you learn that last lesson I just gave you,
or do I need to spell it out for you again?