Understanding Faith Assembly [Archive]

nicnac (nicnac)

06-20-2005, 05:07 AM

I belonged to FA and was affected by it dramatically. I know there are people out there who say that FA was not a cult nor did it have cult type beliefs. Of course, the people who are still in the church are not going to believe it was cult like, if they are there that means they are still living it. It is a hard situation to understand unless you were involved. I really don't care what you say, IT WAS A CULT! You can say all you want that Freeman was just going by the word of God and that is all good. But then you have other people involved and when people follow one man who is telling you what HE believes the word means and people take it to heart well something is wrong. Yes, people should use their common sense to make their own choices, but lets be realistic, most people in life aren't using their common sense. Especially when there is a man who is making everything sound so good. Well, I am sorry, how many people died because they didn't have enough faith? Heck, Hobart himself died, which meant he didn't have enough faith either. You can defend your belief that it was not a cult all you want, but most all of us know that it was. I am not a hater by any means, but it took me years to step back foot in a church and I still to this day do not like wearing dresses and I go overboard on holidays with my kids, its just the facts of life. I do believe in the Lord and I believe that I am a christian, but I will NEVER follow just one man and believe so blindly, like many people did. The only one that anyone should be following in Jesus Christ himself. Anyway, that is my opinion on the whole matter, sorry to rant on and on!

duncan (duncan)

06-20-2005, 01:47 PM

Good morning, All.
I haven't posted in a while, because I wanted to sit back and enjoy the show. However, I felt I should post in this latest discussion. I grew up in FA until I was about 15 years old (in the mid-eighties). I am a very conservative Christian, and consider much of my time at FA to be pleasant. I do not have nightmares about my time there, nor do I need group therapy. However, I have to agree with many of the posters here that FA migrated toward cult-like tendencies, and even bordered on being a cult in the last few years of Dr. Freeman's life. To me, a pastor should shepherd his flock and show them the way to salvation and Godly living. To get involved with the daily living of people is cult behavior. I'm not talking about daily living in the sense of wanting people to live a Christ-like life and set an example by showing love to others. The daily living that Dr. Freeman got involved with was whether a woman ought to wear a dress, or whether I could wear Adidas running shoes, or whether it was proper to wear a t-shirt with writing on it. That is the stuff that cults are made of. The whole doctor issue is the one that always grabs the headlines. I trust God for my healing, but I still go to the doctor. I do not see how the two are mutually exclusive. I am not putting my faith in the doctor, but rather allowing him to do God's work.

The bottom line is this: in the latter years of Dr. Freeman's life, FA leadership and its members became so bogged down in trying to regulate our lives, that they put that on a higher level than the Word of God. As much as I hate to say it, that is pretty darn close to a cult to me.

Have a great day, everyone!

PS - Thought for the Day: "Bitterness does more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than the one on whom it is poured."

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

06-20-2005, 02:06 PM

In regards to your point Duncan about regulating lives I think that is why it went downhill so fast. When the leaders of FA stopped focusing on preaching the word of God and began focusing on ticky tack stuff like you mentioned. I believe that when people started dying that the leaders thought that it was because of sin that was in the congregation and this focus on daily lives was their attempt to eliminate the sin that they felt attributed to the deaths. Maybe I'm off the wall but that's my opinion. I also have to agree with nicnac in that at last count 103 people died and all of them didn't have enough faith? My grandma was one of these people and she was one of the most faithful Christians I had ever met and since when does it require tons of faith to believe. I believe that Jesus said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed. That's not much faith.

(Message edited by cougarxr72 on June 20, 2005)

andrew2005 (andrew2005)

06-21-2005, 09:10 AM

[original post removed]

(Message edited by andrew2005 on June 24, 2005)

duncan (duncan)

06-22-2005, 02:32 PM

Andrew,
Thanks for joining the discussion and for the well-articulated post. You said something that really struck a cord with me, and it is something that I have never thought of before. You stated that the adults around you were still baby Christians. My wife and I have a couple of smaller kids, so I started thinking about your statement in that context. My 5-yr old likes to act like a teenager, but is still only 5 years old at heart. I think you had a culture at FA where everyone was expected to be on the same "grown-up" level, but they were really babies. As kids, we did not have anything on our level. There was no Sunday school or children's church. I can remember being about 9 years old and taking notes during Hebrew and Greek classes. I can now recite the entire Hebrew alphabet, but that's about all I got. Kids, older adults, new Christians, etc., etc., were all expected to be at the same level. The result of this culture was that baby Christians were trying to tell other baby Christians how they were supposed to live. It was sort of like the blind leading the blind.

When I first started posting to this board, I was just being nostalgic. However, I must say that I have learned a great deal over the last 6 months and been forced to dig deep and think. In addition, I have enjoyed hearty laughs at some of the discussions and also enjoyed stirring the pot on occasion, just to break the monotony of my day. I haven't done that in a while, so maybe sometime soon I can start playing with FiveFold's mind a little!

Have a great day!

andrew2005 (andrew2005)

06-23-2005, 04:58 AM

[original post removed]

(Message edited by andrew2005 on June 24, 2005)

healed (healed)

06-23-2005, 05:20 AM

Gotta admit 5fivefold got some pretty good post, enough of the copelandite crap though, Copeland = Freeman if you ask me, I dont care for any of it. But the post about wife dying in the tub and the post about marks naughtiness did catch my eye.

healed (healed)

06-23-2005, 05:27 AM

I dont know, mark could be telling the truth, personally I dont care, Ive done things worse than that. If your a FA type, howeverA I do think that would contradict their teachings/beliefs, that is posting on a XXX site, but it doesnt look like an XXX site if you look harder at it, anyways its all good for a laugh.

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-23-2005, 05:01 PM

Healed, you are right. It is not a XXX site. It is a Three Stooges newsgroup which had a crosspost from a porn newsgroup. Common practice in newsgroups. FF is not walking in love as he proclaims all the time. If he did, he would cease his lies about me and believe that I am telling the truth. If he had what we call the discerning of spirits or other gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12, he could properly discern that. But he doesn't.

Thanks for giving me at least the benefit of the doubt.

Mark

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-24-2005, 02:54 AM

I gave you an explanation and you won't believe it. I don't have to explain anything to you anyway.

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-24-2005, 02:06 PM

that’s what I got from your explanation
Is that correct? explain

I don't have to explain anything further to you.
You won't believe me anyway because your have been given over to a spirit of dilusion.

As far as Freeman and the demonic influence....Freeman learned by experience. You probably learned it from abook or something.

I'll say this...at least Copeland practiced what he preached when he preached about love. Try following your leader and try it for once.

At least FA practices mercy, which the Lord taught on the Sermon on the Mount. Try it sometime Michael. Answer me...would Copeland (or Jesus for that matter) try to dig up dirt on other people or would they forgive something that happened over a year ago. Answer me. Explain. Explain. Explain. Explain. C'mon...answer me

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-24-2005, 02:07 PM

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

06-24-2005, 04:59 PM

This type of activity would not be considered to be of the fruits of the spirit, if Mark was actually intentionally participating in the site with that intention, he claims he was not so why don't you take his word for it. I'll bet you get spam emails on occasion that are pornographic, does that make you living in sin, no not unless you open them and participate in it. You're taking a mispost and trying to turn it in to something that it is not. Give it a rest.

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-24-2005, 09:17 PM

Amen Cougar. Thanks for the encouragement. You are a true friend.

Mark

mark1124 (mark1124)

06-25-2005, 04:43 AM

OK fivefoldfalseprophet. The ball is in your court. Please give evidence to the above comment:

"also freeman’s experience with the occult and demonic spiritual influence in peoples lives was
was just more of his seminary paper work!"

Explain Explain Explain. Give evidence. Not your biased hatred for the man. Give me some facts. How about some more of your web links to prove such absurdity.

Well....c'mon. Answer me hot shot. C'mon Mr prophetic expert. Explain to all of us where you get your authority. Were you there when he ministered deliverance? How do you know? Or are you making things up about him like you do about me? Well...c'mon Michael. Answer us all. We are all waiting.

And don't come on with your threats...because that is not the spirit of Jesus. because He nevered threatened anyone. That is not love. Well, what about it. And don't give us all any dribble. Remember...only the whole public will read this if they come and read your comments. C'mon. we are all waiting with baited breath. Well...speak up. I need a good laugh.

mark1124 (mark1124)

07-14-2005, 09:05 PM

yada yada yada zzzzzzzzz

hombre (hombre)

08-13-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:
A person who claims to understand Faith and is calling people bad names
Has deceived himself! And is not walking in the spirit or overcoming
and has phony faith !

Allright.

I've had my little laugh now, and I'm changing this post,
because i am seeing stumbling people.

Those who understood where I was coming from understand.
Those who don't, didn't.

Besides which, sometimes name-calling is justified.

What if I said:
Oh you generation of vipers, whited sepulchres
full of dead mens bones and rotteness?

Doesn't that have a context,
and an audience to which it was worthy?

So then, in quick conclusion, name-calling within the proper context is not bad,
but simply a revelation of the truth.

(Message edited by Hombre on August 16, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

08-16-2005, 05:51 PM

quote:
....all holidays were banished......

2 Cool.
Where can I go to catch THAT flight?
I am so sick of this childish nonsense.
It is truly amazing, how many people
have convinced themselves
that all of these bizarre celebrations
are good for us, and NEED to be observed.

HOW blind does one have to be, to NOT see
that bunnys and eggs have nothing at all
to do with Christs resurrection?

HOW blind does one have to be, to NOT see
that evergreens, ornaments and Santa Claus
have NOTHING to do with the Birth of Christ?

HOW blind does one have to be, to NOT see
the rest of the holidays as being made
of the same sort of worthless, meaningless,
jerkwater symbolisms?

Hey.
I'm an adult.
I am not impressed with drunken little Irish trolls,
or carved pumpkins and fantasy costumery either.

WHAT in the world is wrong with those who are so impressed
with this lack of meaningful culture,
that they NEED to pass on these STUPID traditions
to their children and grandchildren, etc., etc., etc. ?

I will tell you what is wrong.

Yes, I have the pomposity to do such a thing.

It is because, they need the escape, and
they really have no purpose to their existence,
....and so they cling to this garbage like it was life itself.
From one holiday to the next.
...and what exactly do they benefit from such observances?

Nothing.

Nada.

They are just as empty as they were the day before.

And forgive me please, but....
the women are the absolute worst
and the greatest promoters of this.

You know, come to think of it, that would fit really great
into that verse in Revelation, where it is proclaimed that
God will wipe away all tears, etc......

I am just imagining it like this:
...and God shall wipe away all tears, and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain,
and all holidays shall be banished, for the former things are passed away.....

Hey, thanks Stabidak, for the inspirational note.
That gives me some real hope to cling onto myself.

So now what am I.....some sort of heretic?

Anyway, I think that it is highly unlikely, that God either
does or ever will celebrate St. Pattys.

healed (healed)

08-21-2005, 12:39 PM

HOW blind does one have to be, to NOT see
that evergreens, ornaments and Santa Claus
have NOTHING to do with the Birth of Christ?
_________________________________________________

How blind does one have to be to recongnize that following a fruit like Freeman will get you killed if you have a medical condition that requires medication and you fail to take it?

hombre (hombre)

08-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:
How blind does one have to be to recongnize that following
a fruit like Freeman will get you killed if you have
a medical condition that requires medication and you fail to take it?

__________________________________________________ ___

That has been my point entirely, throughout most of my posts here.
My contention is that people followed a man, and bowed to peer pressure,
instead of looking to the author and finisher of our faith, the Lord Jesus Christ.

People hear what they want to hear, and believe what they want to believe.

Jesus said: ' My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. '
~ Jn. 10:27

That is why I, and others can say, we never had
any problems with Hobarts theology, or his teachings about faith.
We didn't hear what you and others are saying about him,
neither did we follow Hobart, or bow to peer pressure.

.... Nevertheless, I would still like to know what the fascination is for adults
who continue to cling to ridiculous holidays infused with paganism?

...is it because people like to feel that they are somehow 'special' ?,
or that they need a fantasy diversion?, or that they never really questioned
anything that their society spoonfed them?

I'm sorry, but it really is tooooooooo totally absurd and absolutely funny
what people get upset about.

Ohhhhhh!!!! PLEASE!!!!!! Don't take my Santa Claus away!!!!!!!!
My children and I all love this lie sooooooo much!!!

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

PATHETIC.

healed (healed)

08-23-2005, 03:39 AM

Spoken like a true Freemanite, with your spin on holidays and all.

The point your failing to make/see is that it started with holidays and then progressed into many more areas of peoples lives. It became a grip, a way to control. Everything that entered homes, gifts, etc were sterilized, some innocent pictures were cut out or marked out with a black marker. All wordly music and TV viewing was prohibbited. T shirts with any kind of logo or worldly looking pants were not allowed. Owning a home or new car was next to impossible (unless you were an FA pastor) because of the sin of having to go into debt. Seeking medical attention for easily cured or treated ailments such as diabeties, broken bones, herneas, cavities in teeth, etc was forbidden. Wearing glasses showed a lack of faith...good luck on passing that driving test. School immunizations were not of God, better get the relegious one immunization instead. Sports valued competition, an ungodly trait, out they go! You could live in Communist China and still live more freely than most FA types did.

healed (healed)

08-23-2005, 11:54 AM

For anyone looking to study cults and their effect on people, look no futher than our lattest addition, Hombre.

(Message edited by healed on August 23, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

08-23-2005, 08:25 PM

Not interested in a name calling campaign,
Mr/Ms Healed.
You need to read the rest of my posts.
I am not interested in shoving anyone into anything, other than to point toward the cross.

Romans 12:2
Be not conformed to this world, but be
transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that you may prove what is that good, and
acceptable and perfect, will of God.

And what EXACTLY would you call these 'special events' days,
which the world runs after?
Other that being simply vain traditions, most have occult origins.
Perhaps it would do you some good to do some world travel,
and find out that there are multitudes of
various cultural celebrations everywhere you could go,
that also, have absolutely NOTHING to do with Christianity.
Once one sees their own cultures holidays in reference to
the others celebrated around the world,
it becomes very easy to see your own as the form of shallow tradition,
that all of these holdays really are.
They are simply shams, and excuses for partying
and reveling in the flesh.
But then, if you're into the world,
you will find Christianity to be quite restrictive anyway.
...and, generally people like to have their cake and eat it too,
hence the reason that rules become so popular.
If I do this, then I can do that;
which is a complete contradiction to walking
in the Spirit of God, and letting Him lead you.
That of course, is too hard, because it requires consecration
and submission of your will and spirit to Him,....uh.....NOT Hobart Freeman.

Duh.

It is no wonder to me, that so many here are so critical.
After all, when people set up laws, instead of living by faith through grace,
what in the world do they expect?

All I have seen here is a bundle of unbelief,
bitterness, worldliness, legalism,
passing the buck and twisting of Gods' Word.

I don't need to see any more reasons from anyone here
as to the whys someone didn't receive whatever it is
they wanted God to do for them.

God is sublime my friends,
and He deserves to be approached with reverence and humility,
not this haughty spirit I see being displayed here.

THIS is MY message:
GET YOUR EYES OFF OF FREEMAN, AND ONTO JESUS.

May Gods' grace be with you, that your blind eyes may see His grace, and love for you.

healed (healed)

08-24-2005, 02:21 AM

THIS is MY message:
GET YOUR EYES OFF OF FREEMAN, AND ONTO JESUS

Yo Hombre homeboy, I got my eyes off of Freeman a long time ago and I can see the light very clearly now with out without any distortions. Youll notice my post are clear, concise and to the point. Yours continue to ramble and go in circles. I think your eyes are like so many others here, on Freeman!

hombre (hombre)

08-24-2005, 04:17 PM

Sure you did, Unhealed.
Why exactly is it then, that all you do is sling around
acidic diatribes against FA, Freemanites, and Hobart Freeman?

Why don't you encourage all of us,
whom you consider to be deceived,
on into the fullness of the true faith that you are proclaiming?
What exactly is that 'faith' that you have to share with us anyway?
I have yet to hear of your love for Jesus Christ,
or your fellow man.

So now, go on, brother, enlighten us, show us the way to go
deeper into our Savior, Jesus Christ the Lord.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-24-2005, 07:28 PM

Hombre,

You're wasting your time with healed here. He/she has claimed in earlier posts not to believe in any sort of religion and that while they attended FA they faked religion, speaking in tongues and the like to please their parent(s). Healed will not discuss scripture, you could create an entire post that didn't even mention FA or Freeman and Healed would somehow find a way to accuse you of being a freemanite and involved in a cult. While I may not agree with your take on everything, you hit the nail on the head when you said that healed has a problem with Christianity not Freeman. Much of the issues that Healed has a problem with are taught in denominational churches as well. I have brought this up to healed before and the response is that it was a freeman inspired response. This type of rhetoric with healed is what derailed the site earlier. I'm just warning you. I have watched two of my relatives die believing for their healing. I have also had relatives die in the care of the medical profession as well. Again I agree with your point it boils down to common sense.

Have a good day!

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-24-2005, 08:45 PM

I do have to agree with one point that Healed made. People were cut off from the church if they went to see a doctor or didn't follow the doctrine to a T. As a member of the fellowship that you were in, I imagine it is hard to realize some of what went on at FA itself. People did have a "choice"-follow the doctrine to a T or you were backsliding and would risk losing your salvation. Not much of a choice. People began to fear if they left they would lose their salvation if they didn't stay under the true word. Most of what was taught was scripturally sound, but the method in which some of it was brought forth was problematic. It's not a matter of quoting scripture and saying well Jesus condemned people. True he did but I don't recall Jesus ever condemning anyone for seeing a doctor or wearing a colored robe with a logo on it or being merry at a wedding(he even brought the wine). I agree with you on the point of holidays, I don't understand adults fascination with them. I have listened to many of the tapes and there are statements like "if you want to make it you'd better be seeing Dr. Jesus for you ailment than Dr. Jones" I remember people calling hospital's the devil's palace, I haven't found a message yet where Hobart Freeman said that, but I do recall hearing that from other members in the church. I remember as a child being scared to death of hospitals and doctors from sitting in that church. To me there's a problem there. But I'm sure you'll disagree and that's okay.

healed (healed)

08-25-2005, 04:27 AM

Birds of a feather do flock together. Cougar and his brother Hombre are still die hard Freemanites. No arguement there. I knew it was only a matter of time that Cougar, soon Mark24 and others will flock to defend FA.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-25-2005, 02:37 PM

Healed you are a real piece of work. Again I am amazed at your stupidity. I supported what you said and just because I haven't refused to throw out the entire bible as wrong you want to categorize me as something that I'm not. I'm not a diehard freemanite, I just simply choose to believe what the bible says. You need to pull your head out of your posterior. My last post had nothing positive about FA in it did you even read it? I just warned Hombre what he was up against. It is very difficult to argue spiritual issues with someone who has a history of not believing anything and faking religion. All you can do is name call to make an argument. If believing what the bible says makes me a diehard whatever in your eyes then so be it. At least I believe in something. Hope you enjoy your time in Hell.

healed (healed)

08-25-2005, 03:33 PM

Yeah but you agree that "Healed has a problem with Christainty, not Freeman." Nice twist, just like your comrade Hombreo does. My whole discussion is about Freeman and the herd that followed him, not Christianity. When did I mention I have a problem with Christ?

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-25-2005, 04:04 PM

The fact you want to characterize those of us who refuse to throw out the bible as diehard freemanites. It has nothing to do with following Dr. Freeman. Much of what was taught there was scriptural, that's the point I've made. So if you want to call following the bible a cult, then you have a problem with Christianity! This page is called "understanding FA" that's what many of us posters are doing, discussing what we believe lines up with scripture and what we feel does not. Just because I agree with something Dr. Freeman said or taught doesn't make me a freeman fanatic, I don't follow Freeman, I follow the bible. Just like if I agree with something Bill Clinton was for, doesn't mean I support Bill Clinton, I just agree with his point of view on a particular issue. Regardless of what denomination you believe is right, if you don't get saved and get your life right with God, then you are according to Christianity you are going to hell. If you don't believe that then you do have a problem with Christianity in that you disagree with one of the core themes in it.

hombre (hombre)

08-25-2005, 05:13 PM

Cougar:

Thanks for you kind and considerate postings.
I had already come to that conclusion, anyway.

Let God deal with him.
No point in tossing out any more pearls.

My point, briefly is this:
We received a tremendously rich and profound
foundation for our Christianity through Hobart Freeman.

The faith healing issue was there from the beginning.

Some got healed, some died.

Can't explain it, can't even begin to,
because I'm not God.

I do believe that it is unmistakably taught in the Bible,
and regardless of peer pressure,
by either religious zealots, or the world that Unhealed represents,
I am a FREE-MAN to determine my own destiny.

I have absolutely NO condemnation for any believer
who uses doctors...so what?

As I said before, there are a lot of other issues,
IMO that are far more substantial with reference to
a believers development,
than whether or not he/she goes to a doctor.

Also, IMO, the whole faith healing issue is simply a tool
that unbelievers use to excuse themselves from responsibility toward God;
much the same as others who like to harp on 'hypocrites' within the church,
not recognizing that none of us are perfect, just forgiven.

... and THAT, thank God, is what I am, not perfect...just forgiven;
... nevertheless, going forward into the fulness of Christ,
not stopping or stumbling on forever over one particular issue.

(Message edited by Hombre on August 25, 2005)

healed (healed)

08-26-2005, 03:46 AM

You clowns arent fooling anybody. If Freeman had pulled a fast one and showed up at FA today because he had been hiding from the "authorities" for the deaths he was responisible for in the church, you would drop everything and follow him. You would repent and weep on your knees about how you had back tracked and become lukewarm in your beliefs during his absence. If Freeman took control of the FA pulpit today, you would follow every word he said, just like you did before. The only reason you dont do so today is because there isnt a Freeman to follow and your too weak to follow the "word" as it was spoken like before by Freeman. You need a model to follow, someone with a charasmatic personality like Freeman to make the rules.

hombre (hombre)

08-26-2005, 03:11 PM

1. Nothing but more rhetoric fueled by negative imaginative fantasies.

2. ...and you intend to be the 'strong model', I assume?

3. Don't worry, there is someone else like you in the Bible,
who enjoyed breathing out threatenings and slaughter
against the disciples of the Lord. His name was Saul.
The Lord met him on a road, and ...well...kinda turned him around
180 degrees in about a milli-second.

Can you say milli-second?

You will make a very zealous Christian, one day, Unhealed.

When that day occurs, I will call you 'Healed'.

healed (healed)

08-26-2005, 05:10 PM

This is a forum like all the other forums established by Factnet.org where people who were exposed to the more extreme fringes of relegious movements around the world could come and share their experiences. This is what it has been for me. For you and your kind, its a place to come and defend it.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-26-2005, 05:44 PM

Whatever healed, I don't think you could put a convincing argument together if you tried. All you can do is call names, (clowns, fools, freemanites, birds of a feather, cult members, etc). Your points may be concise only because they don't say anything of substance. We have a model to follow and that is Jesus Christ. If you would read a few posts you would see that one of the issues that I adamently oppose was all the petty rules laid down by FA, why would I go back to something I am opposed to. I was a kid when I attended FA, I didn't have a choice then and I do now. You obviously didn't learn any scripture or biblical teachings because all you can talk about is what you couldn't do. Oh that's right you were too busy faking to actually learn anything about the bible. I suppose you're opposed to follow the 10 commandments as well. If we followed your logic that everything that FA taught was bogus, Murder, Adultery, Fornication, Lying, Idol Worship, Stealing, etc would all be okay because those are all part of the "rules" that are in the Bible and were taught at FA. I'm sure you'll respond with more of the same because that's all you can do since you don't have any biblical foundation.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-26-2005, 05:57 PM

What experiences have you shared? All you do is ridicule those of us who don't believe everything that happened there was negative, in your last 5-6 posts you haven't shared any experiences at all, you have done nothing but attack attack attack. What is this page called? "Understanding FA" Not sharing experiences. We're entitled to share our experiences as well. Just because your entire experience at FA was negative(probably because you were faking religion rather than letting God do a work on you) not everyone else's was. These same forum's that are calling FA a cult also have called Stephen Covey's best selling books cult material as well and they were part of the curiculum at both universities that I attended. Now are both of these universities cults as well because they are promoting the literature of someone that some internet site considers to be a cult? I have said that there definitely was cultlike behavior at FA, but I don't think everything that was taught there was wrong. If FA hadn't stressed Faith Healing as much as it did, it wouldn't even be listed here. Much of what was taught and practiced is common with the pentecostal churches(clothing, hair styles, etc). The basis you are using to define FA as a cult could define 50% of the churches today as a cult, so why aren't you railing against them? Look at the sexual abuse that has occurred in the Catholic Church, why don't you start a cult page on them as well. They follow a man too for a model, the pope.

duncan (duncan)

08-26-2005, 06:28 PM

Good afternoon, all.

After going through a bit of a lull, the board seems to have picked up steam and is really humming along now. It is good to see all the dialogue, because talking everything through helps people understand how others view certain things. Not only that, it forces us to dig deep and understand why we believe what we believe. Let's just be careful about name-calling. I believe in challenging what someone believes, but we should refrain from attacking the person.

All that being said, I believe that both sides of this debate have raised legitimate points. Unfortunately, each side is so committed to their view that they are unable to admit that the other side may have raised a good point.

I realize that I can't come in here and wax philosophical without letting you know what I believe, so here it goes. I believe that Dr. Freeman was called to preach the Word and, for the most part, did that. Unfortunately, I also think that Dr. Freeman did more that just preach the Word. I think he preached his own opinions, as well. I think he would try to use scripture to back up things that he didn't like. In the end, it was hard for people to tell what was Dr. Freeman and what was the Bible. As such, people took what he said as the gospel.

I see no problem celebrating birthdays and a few holidays. These are not major parts of my life that I have to cling to in order to live. I just enjoy using the time off of work to spend with family members that I may not regularly see. I know that FA always had to boil it down to its origins (e.g. Christmas = Saturnalia), but I really don't care. Almost everything around us today had pagan origins. Should we start using different days of the week, because the names of the days were derived from the pagans (e.g. Thursday came for the god Thor, etc.)? Should we use different names for the months? My point is that is you could drive yourself crazy thinking about this junk.

When I do anything, I have to examine my heart to see why. Am I eating devil's food cake because I want to worship Satan or because I like chocolate. Am I worshiping a Greek god when I wear my Nike shoes, or do I just like the way they look/feel? The Bible states that "God knows the intentions of the heart." He knows what my motives are, and if they are wrong, then I will have to answer for them.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I wanted to make my point.

Have a blessed day, all.

hombre (hombre)

08-26-2005, 09:33 PM

__________________________________________________ ________
Quote:
For you and your kind, its a place to come and defend it.
__________________________________________________ ________

your kind?

I am sensing a little supremacy here.
Tell us about yourself, Un.
I am absolutely fascinated.
For example, what is your personal physical appearance like?
Do you have hair on your head, or do you shave it off?
Are you into forehead or ball point tatoos?
Do you ever wear sheets?
What minority ethnic groups do you consider to be inferior?
Just trying to get a complete demographic,
so we can all understand where you are coming from
with reference to your comments about understanding FA.

BTW, when you make your appointments,
ask your doctor about the benefits of lithium.

healed (healed)

08-28-2005, 04:03 AM

No Im not a white supremacist, but it is interesting that you made such a comparsion, first you suggested that I see a psycologist, contradicting your beliefs in supernatural faith healing. Now you accuse me of being in an extremist group. Nice. Didnt FA and Freeman have a supremacist complex? I do seem to remeber as a kid not being allowed to associate with other kids who were "unbelivers" in the true word as taught by Bro Freeman. I do seem to remeber feeling different and uncomfortable about this. Also, FA members who were backsliders or who sought out medical attention were excommunicated..were they not? Who are you to accuse anybody of being an extremist? Since you and other followers of extremist movements have so much in common, Im sure you could make the transition very easily over into their camp.

hombre (hombre)

08-29-2005, 03:40 PM

I may have gotten the idea that you were a supremacist,
based upon your previous statement which was
demeaning in its ethnic stereotype ( your post # 62,
why was Hobart Freeman/FA so special ):

"brothas and sistas"

..or yet I might have picked it up from this latest slur:

'your kind'.

At any case, yes, you are correct, that FA was exclusive,
as are all other Christian churches. We exclude the world,
because they have no part in the Kingdom of God.
They are welcome, inasmuch as they bow their
knees to Jesus Christ, King of heaven and earth,
at which point they are included.
So it is by choice, that a person either includes or excludes himself.

Do I need to remind you of the myriad of scriptures that warn a believer not to
be a part of the world? Surely, Jesus hung out with the lost.....but the purpose
was to teach them and save them, not to fraternize with them, and partake in
their lifestyle of sin and debauchery.

ALL Christian parents watch over their children, as they ought,
nevertheless, some of them, like you, need to travel down their own road,
until they come to the end of themselves and bow their own knees.
Perhaps it will happen for you tomorrow, perhaps on your deathbed,
but maybe by then you heart will be so hard, it will be frozen in unbelief.

Hell is, BTW, not a place where one will have a good time with his friends.

Next topic:

Q. Was Hombre contradicting his belief in divine healing, by suggesting that
someone see a doctor?

A. No.
You see Unhealed, divine healing was bought by the blood of Jesus Christ,
and is only available to the person who receives forgiveness of his sins,
through that blood, and its' main condition is FAITH.
In that an unbeliever is not eligible for divine healing, nor is a believer if
that first condition of faith is not met, then it would be ridiculous for me
to suggest that you trust God for your healing, since you do not appear to be saved,
nor do you have faith, by your own admission.

healed (healed)

08-30-2005, 03:24 AM

You see Unhealed, divine healing was bought by the blood of Jesus Christ,
and is only available to the person who receives forgiveness of his sins,
through that blood, and its' main condition is FAITH.
In that an unbeliever is not eligible for divine healing, nor is a believer if
that first condition of faith is not met, then it would be ridiculous for me
to suggest that you trust God for your healing, since you do not appear to be saved,
nor do you have faith, by your own admission

Interesting. What about childern? Quite a few of them died under Freemans watch. Did they not have the right conditions being met? No faith? Were they unbelivers? Like all your other post, the lattest one doesnt make any sense.

hombre (hombre)

08-30-2005, 04:30 AM

1.What about childern?

Children are obviously the responsibility of their parents.
Mine are not dead. I cannot possibly answer for others,
any more than you can.

2. Quite a few of them died under Freemans watch.

Freeman was responsible to teach Gods' Word.
That he did. What others did with it was ultimately their responsibility.
No one was under any threat whatsoever;
I saw what the Word of God said.
I made choices and decisions based upon my personal faith and walk with God,
as did everyone else. Go ahead and attack the dead horse, if it makes you feel good.
Freeman wasn't God, which is what you are trying to make him into,
as if Freeman had the power within himself to heal and keep thousnads healthy,
regardless of the condition of their hearts.

What was the condition of your heart at during that time?

What is it now?

Sarcasm and ridicule are on the opposite bandwidth from faith.

3. Like all your other post, the lattest one doesnt make any sense.

...the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
or they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned. ~ 1 Cor. 2:14

I understand that you are looking for answers and that you are very angry,
but I believe that your anger is misdirected.
Condemning Hobart is not the answer.
Why don't you study the Word of God for yourself, with an open heart,
and find out what it says about this, or any other subject?

You may find that you end up asking the same question as many other believers.
I.E.: WHY do the righteous suffer?
Too lengthy to go into here, but I suggest you start with the book of Job.}}

healed (healed)

08-30-2005, 08:55 AM

Children are obviously the responsibility of their parents
So what your saying is that Freeman taught that it is ok for the parents to exercise their faith in supernatural healing, but the children should be made excempt from this belief because they are not old enough to grasp the concept. I dont recall this rule being applied to me or anybody else I know as a kid. Is that what your saying? Then why did so many die? Why did some women die giving birth? What about the child inside the womb? Is it able to make decisions for itself?

Freeman was responsible to teach Gods' Word

Every minister feels he/she is responsible to teach Gods word. Some ministers like Koresh and Freeman like to take that calling to the extreme. From what I have read, Freeman had been steering towards the more whacky side of things way back in his seminary days and he was being shunned, so he starts his own group and progessively goes more and more towards the fringes of the faith healing relegious movement.

 What others did with it was ultimately their responsibility.

If it was that simple then there wouldnt of been a grand jury probe into his activities. Freeman did have many positive things to say, such as in his books Biblical Thinking and his writings about postive thinking etc. The problem with Freeman is that he created a dependant complex amoung the herd that followed, people were always packing up and moving to be near the "word" and hanging onto every word that Freeman spoke. If Freeman spoke it, then it must be truth. Everything starting being censored, from what you could listen to on the radio to what you could wear and members double checked with each other to make sure they werent violating any rules. As I stated before, it was a form of mind control and members were not allowed to think for themselves. I dont blame the members that followed Freeman, I blame Freeman.

Once again your responses are lame spins and just more defenses of Freeman.

(Message edited by healed on August 30, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

08-30-2005, 04:27 PM

So what your saying is that Freeman taught ...blah,blah,blah....

I'm tired of talking about Freeman.
Your issue is really not with Freeman, but with the Bible.
What I'm saying, and I'm sticking to it is this:
What does your Bible say?

From what I have read....

Exactly my point.
You were not only too young to follow seminary level teaching
at the time, you were too interested in your rebellious lifestyle
of deception in ridiculing what you thought you saw and understood,
to have actually listened and understood.

What others did with it was ultimately their responsibility.

If it was that simple then there wouldnt of been a grand jury probe into his activities.

Tell that to Adolph Eichmann. I don't remember the 'grand jury' at that time
releasing him from responsibility, because Hitler made him do it.
Ultimately, everyone is responsible for their own actions.
Besides, it is not my place to be an apologist for Hobart Freeman;
nor yet for God. Go read the Bible for yourself, and make your own conclusions.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

08-30-2005, 05:25 PM

Hombre,

You might want to read the younger generation pages. It sheds some light on Healed's background. See in particular posts 9 & 16.

duncan (duncan)

08-30-2005, 07:14 PM

Gentlemen,
Let me see if I can add another viewpoint to the discussion. The two sides of this argument, as I see it, is that one person believes that Dr. Freeman is responsible for what happened and the other person believes that everyone must accept responsibility for their own actions.

Based on my understanding of the Word, you are both right and both wrong (how's that for a John Kerry type answer???)

Here's what I mean: I Peter 1:17 states that the "Father, who without respect of persons judges everyone according to their works." Then if you read James 3:1, it states "be not many teachers, for they will receive the greater judgment."

To boil it all down, everyone at FA is responsible for their own actions and beliefs. However, Dr. Freeman will be held to a stricter judgment because he was a teacher. He will have to give an account before God for everything he said and did. I have stated before that I will not speak against a minister of God, but I will question things that were said from the pulpit. I have always agreed with the vast majority of Dr. Freeman's Biblical theology. The problem I have always had was his personal opinions that were presented as gospel. The fact that he thought homosexuals wore tennis shoes with 3 stripes did not make it gospel that we couldn't wear them. However, that is what happened in the church. All of a sudden, people started throwing away their tennis shoes. This is the type of non-theological opinions that he handed down - knowing full well what the reaction of the church would be.

These are my thoughts based upon interpreting the Scriptures.

Have a great day, all.

hombre (hombre)

08-31-2005, 12:55 AM

(how's that for a John Kerry type answer???)

Purty good, mister. ha-ha!

This is the type of non-theological opinions that he handed down
- knowing full well what the reaction of the church would be.

Vessels have their own peculiarities.
He also liked fresh baked bread, and women hustled around
at 5 A to make it for their hubbies....if you ask me....that is
all nothing but works based salvation...doing this or doing that
in order to measure up. Very simple really.

Duncan, I agree with you that his theology is A-1, the problem
I am seeing is something that is typical of todays generation...
I.E. ~ the inability to accept the fact that they are responsible
for their own lives. My guess is that our buddie Un,has the same
problem throughout the entire spectrum of his existence;
either that or he's a DA,.... I don't believe I have ever met anyone
with the rabid need to accuse, outside of a DA or the devil.

Why are you and I able to cope with this, and others aren't?

Because it's easier to blame someone else.

Blame Mom and Dad for the way you turned out.
Blame the government because you don't like taxes.
Blame the government because your welfare check isn't on time.
Blame the liberals, if you're a conservative,
Blame the conservatives, if you're a liberal,
Blame your husband because he doesn't make enough money,
Blame your wife because she doesn't cook that well,
Blame your children, because they are expensive,
Blame your boss, because he doesn't know as much as you do,
Blame your co-workers because they get the perks and you don't,
Blame the banks for their usurious interest rates,
and their refusal to pay a nickel on your savings,
Blame, blame, blame....on and on it goes...
..... until one becomes a very bitter and angry person.

One must learn to accept the consequences of his/her behavior,
learn from it, and move on, if they don't,
they simply become mired, thrashing about in their own little cesspool.

I watched friends die, with or without doctors.
It is an inevitability of this life.
There are many people today in the good ol USA
who have NO health insurance whatsoever.
They get sick, they die.
Every winter, some poor soul gets their power shut off
for non-payment and they freeze to death.

Does anyone care?

Do people picket the insurance companies for the godless,
soul-less money mongers they are?

Do people quit paying their utilities in defiance and outrage over
the old man that died last winter, because a little bit of money
was more important to them than human life?

No.

Why?

Because they aren't preaching FAITH IN GOD, that's why.

Go ahead, see if I'm right.

Just go preach FAITH IN GOD for ANYTHING other that the sweet by and by,
and you'll find out real quick that you are up against hell itself.

This is the type of non-theological opinions that he handed down

Exacter-ly, preciser-ly mi amigo.

HOW MANY TIMES DID I HEAR HOBART ENCOURAGE PEOPLE
TO GET INTO THE WORD TO FIND OUT WHAT IT SAID?

ABOUT 10 MILLION TIMES, give or take a FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND.

If you fell all over your feet trying to pull your children out of public school,
threw your clothes away, wore whatever, baked bread, gossiped with others
about so-and-so who was wearing fruit shoes, ..... well...... what can I say...
THAT WAS YOUR CHOICE, AND YOUR DECISION TO DO SO.

The first rule in that church was to look it up in the word.

I'm not jumpin yer case specifically, Dunky, but people tend to toss away
their common sense whenever the word God is mentioned. I know of
Christians of other denominations who jump on every bandwagon that
comes along. It seems to me that far too many Christians got saved by grace,
yet are trying to work out their salvation through religious works.

Jesus Christ is FREEDOM, not bondage.

He should always, first and foremost be our daily bread,
NOT that which someone slaves over at 5 A.

hombre (hombre)

08-31-2005, 01:13 AM

Hombre,

You might want to read the younger generation pages.
It sheds some light on Healed's background.
See in particular posts 9 & 16.

Danke shoen, Cougar.......
You are faithful member of Der Fuhrers elite youth group.

Ha-ha!!!!
You will have to excuse my blackened sense of humor.

Yeah...poor kid needs help.

I see him confusing the corresponding actions issue as well.
The whole point of this is what I keep saying:

..the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
or they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned. ~ 1 Cor. 2:14

The guy needs to be born again.

duncan (duncan)

08-31-2005, 03:44 PM

Hombre,
Thanks for the response. As usual, I really can't find anything in which I disagree with you. It is a "pass-the-buck" society, and people should take responsibility for their actions. After reading your posts, however, it seems that you are trying to totally dismiss Dr. Freeman from any and all responsibility. Like I said in my previous post, I am not coming against Dr. Freeman or his ministry. What I am saying is that the Bible clearly states that ministers are held to a higher standard of accountability for what they say. As the shepherd of his flock, he will be held accountable for what the flock says and does with his words. My point is not to dismiss the responsibility of the people, but to put more responsibility on Dr. Freeman.

The apostle Paul stated in I Corinthians that he wanted to preach the strong meat of the Word to them, but they were not yet able to handle it. As such, he only fed them milk. FA had a lot of people that were newer Christians and could only digest milk. It was the responsibility of Dr. Freeman to discern this fact, but I believe he made people think that they were headed for Hades if they couldn't handle the meat.

Thanks for hearing me out.
Have a great day!
Duncan

hombre (hombre)

09-01-2005, 03:47 AM

Hey Dunk:

Yes, the ministers will be held to a higher level of accountability than the flock.
What is your point though?
Why would you care?

I will be the first to agree that MANY did not get it, and couldn't handle it.
Faith does not come overnight, and you can't get it by cramming volumes of material
down your throat as fast as possible either. It takes time....to live it out,
each step being part of a long process of maturation, and character shaping.

That being said.....

If I hadn't learned it then....who would teach it to me now?

Assuming that new people are always showing up,
when in the world CAN a minister push ahead?

Should general assemblies be for the purpose
of a salvation message only?

Should people be separated into smaller groups based upon
their present level of maturity, with prerequisites being required for admittance?

...and who would be the judge, to discern whether someone is mature enough yet?

My point being, ...... that is far to complex, and difficult.
Besides, there will always be someone who is a complainer.

There are multitudes of churches that do just exactly that:
... feed the flock pablum, week after week after week.

You know, eventually, a honest person is going to begin to wonder
what the purpose of all that religiosity is.
They are going to want real solutions to real problems.
That is why the church of today cannot hold onto its converts.
There is absolutely NO power.
At least a beer will make you forget about it.
What good are these preachers who teach people to live with their problems,
and give them no solution whatsoever?

THAT is why I am thankful that I heard the message then.
The seeds were planted, and time has gone by,
teaching me ever so perfectly, in His time, in sync with me.
First the seed, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.

As Steve Hill used to say:

'People hear what they want to hear, and believe what they want to believe'.

That's why we can tell a story, pass it around, and by the time it gets back
to you again, it doesn't even resemble what you said.

So I am thankful, regardless of whether I was 'mature enough' to handle that word or not.

BTW: Do you think that the world, or even the believers will be able to handle the end time events?, ....or should we
petition God to reconsider His eternal plans and purposes?

healed (healed)

09-01-2005, 03:57 AM

When the sign says dont feed the animals, I sometimes find it hard to resist because the animals can be so entertaining to watch. Take for example exhibits Hombre and Cougar , subspecies Braindamage and Gullible Its interesting and entertaining to watch you 2 morons skirt around the meat of the issue. You always are able to referance some scripture or accuse the folks like me who speak out about the cult known as FA of being bitter or thrashing in our cesspool. This is funny because I have never felt more freeer, more complete, (thus the named Healed) than I do today. I dont need to look far to find the cesspool, I have a relative living in it. Their life is bound by ridiculous, insane rules, all created by none other than Hobart Freeman. Well it is the individuals responsibility to do with the teaching what they want he says. Nice try. That would defeat the whole purpose of having a group. Freeman never taught that. True, that was the milk part of the message, the bait, but if you were to continue to associate with FA, you best get with the program or be excommunicated. I expect nothing less than ambiguous rants coming from you two idiots defending Freeman and all that goes with it. Ive seen this my whole life. The difference now is that the more distance you put between it, the clearer I can see how insane it really is. While everything is falling apart around you, people were dying and getting sicker as their conditions progressively deteriorate, you laughed and rejoiced and belived that all is ok. You laugh at the world around you, feeling that you are superior and if your kids didnt follow along, the rod is not spared and you beat them into submission. That "blackened sense of humor" you mention is not only black, its sick. No Hombre, "the boy" doesnt need saved, "the boy" has grown up, and he is now able to challenge you and think for himself.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

09-01-2005, 04:22 PM

1. Again more name calling nothing of substance. If you are trying to remove yourself from it, why do you spend so much time posting here. We reference scripture primarily because that is what our faith is based on not Dr. Freeman. You're entitled to believe what you want to believe and if you want to consider us insane that's fine. But I won't be spending eternity in Hell with you.

2. You make repeated accusations that have no basis.

"you laughed and rejoiced and believed that all is ok"

How would you know, were you there when my brother died or my grandmother died? No, so how can you make an accusation like that. You don't even know me and just because I choose to believe the bible you have a predisposed opinion of me.

"and if your kids didn't follow along, the rod is not spared and you beat them into submission"

Again you don't even know me and you don't know how I raise my children. There is a difference between disciplining your children and beating them. (obviously your parents didn't know the difference) Our society would be a much safer place if more parents did discipline their children.

3. You have yet to provide any alternative belief system. From your posts it appears that you are of the "do whatever feels good" belief system that so many in the world follow today, if you believe that way that's fine until you're on your death bed and medical science can't do a damn thing for you or you're in a situation like hurricane katrina and you're trapped and the flood waters are rising, who are you going to call on then?

4. There really is no point in arguing with you in the first place because you don't read anything anyone else posts anyway. If a poster doesn't agree with your viewpoint entirely, then you automatically write them off. I have listed the main points in which I agree with you on below in prior posts, since you obviously can't put 2 and 2 together.

(a.) Seeing the medical profession is fine with me if you don't want to believe for your healing, then go to the doctor. If you are a parent, then you should do everything you can to make sure your kids are well cared for, if that means getting stitches or a bone set then get it set. I have posted this at least 10 times, and yet every post your ridicule me over this. I'm beginning to think you are illiterate.
(b.) The petty rules were legalistic and cultlike and contributed to the downfall of FA
(c.) The excommunication for not following all the rules, I will agree with you that went on and I have given examples before.

5. Lastly, you don't challenge me, (frustrate me with your stupidity maybe) you just call names, you can't back up any argument with any basis. I doubt you could even quote 1 scripture if your life depended on it. Which is ironic, since you seem to have all of the answers about a religion that you can't quote one scripture from the text that it is based on and has been for over 2000 years.

hombre (hombre)

09-01-2005, 04:47 PM

Well, Brothers and sisters,

...all I can say further is this:

1....the ways of peace they have not known...

2. To quote Hobart:

'When you are confronted by the lying media,
whose only interest is to twist what you say,
and who have absolutely no intention of
listening to a word you say, and have
no interest whatsoever in Christianity,
the only comment I have for them is: NO comment'.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

09-01-2005, 08:06 PM

By the way what is the meat of the issue you keep referring to? Is Freeman responsibility for the deaths of everyone that died? Is that the meat of the issue you're referring to? You're the only one that is skirting around anything. You're the one that can't get past talking about Freeman. I'll answer you if you'll answer me. Based on your logic because people applied Dr. Freeman's teachings, they died. Because they died you believe he was responsible for their deaths, correct? In the reverse of that, if these people or 100 other people went to a doctor and they died under the Doctor's care, is the doctor criminally responsible for the deaths? Or is the med school responsible for improper application of a technique that results in the death of 100's of patients. Same logic, different healing method. Or if 100 patients are prescribed a particular drug and they don't follow the prescription instructions and die, who's responsible for their deaths? That is not a defense of FA, I'm just using your logic in regards to Dr. Freeman and his teaching of Faith Healing.

In answer to your question, my personal opinion is as I've stated before, the approach and method to which the faith healing method was brought for was problematic, even though it(prayer for healing) is scripturally based. You had people who were new christians who hadn't heard the entire message or misconstrued the application of it. Which due to the peer pressure that was placed on people for fear of being excommunicated there were people within the church who should have been seeing a doctor rather than praying for their healing. Dr. Freeman should have emphasized more that if you don't believe that you can get healed by faith then you need to see the doctor and that common sense should be excercised in regards to faith healing. If God doesn't miraculously straighten your arm bone and heal it on the spot when you break it, you should get it set! This area should have been emphasized more in my opinion and as a result he is responsible in that regard. But I don't think he should have been held criminally responsible for those that had died. I don't recall anyone ever being forced to stay there, or tied to a bed or a chair to be kept from going to a doctor. As far as the children go that's an entirely different issue, I think that the only way you can criminally charge parents or the preacher with criminal activity is if you are willing to apply the same to those parents whose children die from a medical science error or prescription drug error. In that case according to your logic you should criminally charge the doctor. The parent believes that whatever course of treatment they choose for their child is in the best interest of the child whether it be faith healing, medical profession or herbal treatment, whatever method is chosen the same set of rules have to apply. Otherwise you have no freedom of choice. Do you think a child whose parents want them to get braces really enjoy that or want braces on? How many kids do you know are just dying to get a shot, or have stitches put in. Those treatments parents believe are in the best interest of the child. Same thing that FA members believed. Many people failed to use common sense in respect to what they were taught. If you are going to start holding preachers and professors and doctors and whatever profession you want to refer to criminally liable because someone didn't use common sense in the application of what they were taught, you are going to open a whole can of worms and virtually anyone with any intelligence in any professional field is at risk to be criminally charged for the failure of their constituents to use common sense. That is my response to the "meat of the issue" will you respond to my question, I doubt it. Look I go to the doctor for various ailments, but that doesn't mean that I don't pray either. I have had physical problems in which the medical profession said there is not much we can do for that, you'll just have to live with it. I prayed for it and it was healed. Was it healed by God or was it just over time it corrected itself? I can't prove either.

hombre (hombre)

09-02-2005, 11:08 PM

Excellent reasoning, coug.

healed (healed)

09-07-2005, 06:59 AM

Another ridiculous, long and defensive post by Cougar with his new found pet hombre cheering him on. Its funny to see how you get so defensive and feel the need to explain every detail of why you belive the way you do. I am always left with the same feeling that you fully embrace all things FA and Freeman. Its not just about the faith healing topic, (this is the one Freeman would of been charged with so it gets alot of attention) but it goes much deeper than that. Dumb and Dumber (Cougar and Hombre) dont like to address this and like wearing their blinders. All that typing in your post is just excuses, same ole same ole.

healed (healed)

09-07-2005, 10:03 AM

Based on your logic because people applied Dr. Freeman's teachings, they died. Because they died you believe he was responsible for their deaths, correct? In the reverse of that, if these people or 100 other people went to a doctor and they died under the Doctor's care, is the doctor criminally responsible for the deaths? Or is the med school responsible for improper application of a technique that results in the death of 100's of patients. Same logic, different healing method. Or if 100 patients are prescribed a particular drug and they don't follow the prescription instructions and die, who's responsible for their deaths? That is not a defense of FA, I'm just using your logic in regards to Dr. Freeman and his teaching of Faith Healing.
_________________________________

So typical of Freemanite logic. The twist. Yes I do belive Freeman was responsible for their deaths. Why? Common sense;
A. When people go to the doctor for treatment, the go voluntarly. The doctor, in almost all cases doesnt call anyone to come to their office. The doctor does whatever he can to treat their condition.

B. Freeman taught that trusting in the arm of the flesh (doctors, occult medical science) was against Gods word. Freeman advised against going to the doctor. His teachings were a hindrance to anyone who needed treatment. A doctor will do whatever he/she can to treat a patient, so in the eyes of the law, and if you ask me, God, they cannot be held responsible except in the case of negligence. When the old man with pnenomia needed to see the doctor, Freemans teachings got in the way of that. Otherwise, what would of stopped that person from seeing a doctor? The doctor wouldnt of refused to see them.

C. If a hundred people went to the same doctor and died, then an investigation would be in order. If a church had several deaths in its congregation, an investigation would be in order. If 100 people died after taking a medication because they followed the instructions but the instructions were wrong because of a mistake, then yes, that manufacture would be held resposible. If a minister in a church is teaching that it is a sin to seek out medical treatment for easily curable conditions and that churches members die, then he is to be held responsible!

So yes, you are defending it, and no, there is no logic to anything you say, its just spins and Freemanite twist.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

09-07-2005, 03:56 PM

A. People attended FA voluntarily as well, like I have asked before can you name one person that was tied down or physically forced to stay at FA or stay away from the medical authorities. The old man with pneumonia had a choice. Now I as a parent have had to physically force my kids to go to the doctor and they have had to be physically strapped in a dentist's chair and the doctor's table to receive treatment that was needed. Is that voluntary? There are many patients that are tied down, to keep IV's in or to perform treatment, etc. Is that voluntary? You're right he advised against going to the medical science, but so do many herbal treatment places as do some chiropractors and alternative healing practitioners. My point is you're putting Doctors at a level of Gods and they're not, they're human. Adults(unless mentally incompetent) have the ability to make a choice. Whatever their choice is they need to take responsibility for their actions. Not look for someone to blame when they make a wrong choice.

B. Again I can't recall one instance where any adult was forced against their will not to see a doctor, if you have examples please provide them. I know of people that left and went to the doctor for their ailments. The Freeman SS Police didn't go hunt them down and bring them back, they let them go. The key issue here is not what I believe(because obviously you haven't read that), but rather a differences of philosophy. I am of the opinion that adults are responsible for their actions and decisions. You are of the opinion of always looking for someone to blame. One other note, there are many doctors that will refuse to see you if you don't have the means to pay them!

C. You're wrong on two counts here, first of all generally there aren't many criminal investigations into doctors even though they are the ones administering the treatment. I can't recall of any. I recall many civil lawsuits. Doctor's have medical malpractice, which is insurance that if they screw up the insurance company writes a check. Now eventually if they screw up enough times, the insurance company will cancel their insurance. Those aren't investigations, those are payoffs. Individuals are suing doctors and hospitals because if their loved one dies, nothing is going to bring them back. So they want paid off and if they charge a doctor criminally he can't pay them off if he is setting in jail. What they were trying to charge Doctor Freeman with was criminal negligence. Which he may well have been negligent in his method of teaching which I have said before that I thought his teaching methods were problematic. I don't have the evidence on what he was being charged with or even know which individuals he was being charged for. Since you think you're an expert on this subject any evidence or information you could provide on his grand jury probe would be appreciated, maybe I'll have a different viewpoint on it after reading it. Second of all you misread my point of prescriptions. I said if a patient takes a drug and doesn't follow the instructions and dies is the drug company/pharmacist/doctor criminally? Assuming the prescription instructions were correct. If the manufacturer is at error they are going to be held civilly liable obviously. I don't recall any of the major drug companies ever being charged criminally. Can you name one? Why because they are trying to help people, just like doctors are and even Doctor Freeman was.(Whether he was right or wrong is beside the point, I don't believe he set out to get 103 people killed)

The problem is you want to pick and choose how you apply the law. You want to prosecute one group one way and another group another way. That's not the way America works. America tries to treat everyone equally.

As far as the kids go I don't have an answer for it. There isn't any method of treatment that a child is going to choose voluntarily, so the parent chooses what they feel is best for their child. If the parent is found to be negligible in that choice then they face criminal charges. Look as I have said many times before, I only know the circumstances of a couple people that died, I can't speak about the other 100 or so, I don't know what they died from or the circumstances that surrounded their deaths. I can only comment on those instances that I know of. I have repeatedly asked for information on the others, to this point nobody has been forthcoming with it.

The namecalling is getting a little old. The rest of us have refrained from it. It does nothing to further your argument, it actually takes away from it.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

09-07-2005, 04:05 PM

I am through wasting my time with you, you haven't accomplished anything and neither have I. The derogatory nature that you have resorted to has become monotonous and childish. So far we have been called by you, morons, animals, dumb & dumber, idiots, fools, clowns, gullible & brainwashed, etc. You really make a strong case when that is all you can come up with. I'm not afraid to address the issues at hand, you just don't like my answers. Since you have no background in the bible or christianity, you really can't do anything but call names and repeat the same crap over and over. It amazes me how you seem to think of yourself as an expert on a church that I don't think you ever attended or ever followed its teachings. Nor can you provide any scriptural argument to anything you say. You think that you are an expert in Faith Theology, but yet can't quote any scripture to refute what we have argued or to support what you say. I do hope and pray for your sake that someday you will at least get saved even if you don't believe anything else. I don't believe you can find a mainstream christian church today that is against salvation. As I have said repeatedly as have many others, what is your alternative belief system. If Christianity and the bible are so bad and so wrong, what is the better alternative? Buddhism, Hindu, Islam, Judaeism, Atheism. There is no point in continuing to talk to a brick wall. Have a good life. Good day to all.

(Message edited by cougarxr72 on September 07, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

09-08-2005, 04:29 PM

Proverbs 24:4-5

4. Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him
5. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I think that what The Lord is telling us here,
is that there are no-win situations.
Some neither grasp what we tell them, nor do they want to.

As Pauls' letter to the Romans reminds us:
..the invisible things of Him FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD
are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
...when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful,
but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.....
...... wherefore God gave them up .....

Sober thoughts.

Un, I am interested in seeing if you can answer just one of my questions
with a straight answer, without your typical hypocritical name calling.

Here it is:

What exactly do you think happens beyond deaths gate?

healed (healed)

09-10-2005, 09:44 AM

I think that what The Lord is telling us here,
is that there are no-win situations.
Some neither grasp what we tell them, nor do they want to.
Indeed! The feeling is mutual!

What exactly do you think happens beyond deaths gate?

Who knows. Im not going to spend my life in some self imposed bondage that was created by an educated fool in order to prepare for something I know nothing about. From the time a soul enters this world until it leaves, it can spend its time in happiness, which most cultures have mangaged to do if you travel the world, or it can choose to live in some self imposed misery like cults and muslims do. "what happens beyond deaths gate" is just more bait to lure me into one of your murky traps, then preach some ridiculous nonsense that if I dont abide by this rule or that rule, I wont make it into heavens gate...aka extremism.

There was a story about a little girl who had a tumor in her eye that grew so big she rubbed it against the wall for relief and left blood trails throughout the house. I know if I had seen that, something in me would kick in, some rage, some feelings of empathy, etc., as would in almost any human being. I know that other people in FA who seen this had those same feelings, but they were held back because of their beliefs or what they had been taught. I have a relative who suffers profoundly and will only get worse because of these beliefs and teachings. I dont know, but after youve seen the more sick side of it, the "what happens beyond deaths gate" suddenly looses its appeal

(Message edited by healed on September 10, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

09-10-2005, 06:50 PM

Thank you Un, for your prompt secular response.

I think that all we here as Christians, whether FA endorsers or not,
understand your position now with the utmost clarity.

YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

YOU need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,
or YOU will find yourself in a world of eternal torment when you cross through the veil.

BTW: I am quoting your last message in it's entirety, in case you decide to delete it.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2005 - 4:44 am: ææ
I think that what The Lord is telling us here,
is that there are no-win situations.
Some neither grasp what we tell them, nor do they want to.
Indeed! The feeling is mutual!

What exactly do you think happens beyond deaths gate?

Who knows. Im not going to spend my life in some self imposed bondage that was created by an educated fool in order to prepare for something I know nothing about. From the time a soul enters this world until it leaves, it can spend its time in happiness, which most cultures have mangaged to do if you travel the world, or it can choose to live in some self imposed misery like cults and muslims do. "what happens beyond deaths gate" is just more bait to lure me into one of your murky traps, then preach some ridiculous nonsense that if I dont abide by this rule or that rule, I wont make it into heavens gate...aka extremism.

There was a story about a little girl who had a tumor in her eye that grew so big she rubbed it against the wall for relief and left blood trails throughout the house. I know if I had seen that, something in me would kick in, some rage, some feelings of empathy, etc., as would in almost any human being. I know that other people in FA who seen this had those same feelings, but they were held back because of their beliefs or what they had been taught. I have a relative who suffers profoundly and will only get worse because of these beliefs and teachings. I dont know, but after youve seen the more sick side of it, the "what happens beyond deaths gate" suddenly looses its appeal

(Message edited by healed on September 10, 2005)

healed (healed)

09-11-2005, 04:46 AM

YOU ARE NOT SAVED.

YOU need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,
or YOU will find yourself in a world of eternal torment when you cross through the veil.

 Ok let see how this works. I get "saved" then Im gradually reeled in towards YOUR beliefs, Im introduced to others who believe like you, Im spoon feed the "milk" of the word until I can get hooked on the "meat" and gradually my whole existence revolves around YOUR beliefs. Im eventually led down a bewildering path of ridiculous beliefs until my own mental and phsyical wellbeing are put into jepardy. SORRY! Been there done that. Go find yourself another SUCKER there Hombre!

hombre (hombre)

09-13-2005, 01:02 AM

SORRY! Been there done that.

If you had done that from your heart,
you wouldn't say the things you say.

micah (micah)

09-16-2005, 03:47 AM

can you be saved and be angry?
can you be saved and have a dissagreement with your "brother"?
can you be saved and still wrestle with your past?
can you be saved and not live the so called "deeper life"?
can you be saved and question God?
can you be saved and still sin?
how do you know who is going to heaven?
how can you tell if someone has a pure heart?
who do you call a sinner?
whats up with the questions?
think about it.
who is healed?
someone you could help?
why not put all the knowledge to good use to save a lost sheep? is that not what the sheperd does? he leaves the 99 to look for the 1?
so........what am i missing here?
wtf?

hombrexd (hombrexd)

09-20-2005, 08:39 PM

can you be saved and be angry? 

Yes, however, if you don't repent, you will perish.

can you be saved and have a dissagreement with your "brother"? 

Yes, I am disagreeing with your entire line of logic here,
but that is between you and God.

can you be saved and still wrestle with your past? 

Yes, but one has to remember that once you have put things under the blood,
they are as far as east is from west, to God.
It is not like they never existed, but the punishment has been paid for.
But to forget....well I'm not so sure that that is a good thing.
It is better to remember, that we learn from our mistakes.

can you be saved and not live the so called "deeper life"? 

I am not sure what your definition is here.

can you be saved and question God?

I am assuming that you mean:
Can a saved person question the motives
and integrity of God and His purposes?
Yes, I think that's obvious, however:
Y'know......like I said...I disagree with your line of logic here,
and I am going to suggest that you read the book of Job again, if you haven't already.
Too deep a subject for a one-liner.

can you be saved and still sin? 

Duh, yes.

how do you know who is going to heaven? 

Mark 13:13, 16:16, John 3:36
Look 'em up.
We also know who is NOT going to heaven.
That would be those who do not believe the aforementioned scriptures.

how can you tell if someone has a pure heart? 

ALL men have deceitful hearts.
However, through regeneration, men can begin the journey toward that.

who do you call a sinner? 

Those who are not saved.

whats up with the questions? 

Maybe you should tell me that.

think about it. 

I have. Your motive for this is basically the same as mine...
i.e: to help someone, however, it would appear that you have not taken the time,
to read the entirety of this thread ....

who is healed? 

Perhaps you should define that, and may I ask:
WHO is Micah?

someone you could help? why not put all the knowledge to good use to save a lost sheep?
is that not what the sheperd does? he leaves the 99 to look for the 1? 

Now that you are here, you may try also.
May God be with you.

so........what am i missing here? 

You are missing reading the entirety of the material here, like I said.

wtf? 

Perhaps you would like to spell that out for us.

duncan (duncan)

11-17-2005, 02:56 PM

This thread hasn't seen action in a while, so I thought I would ask a question.

Thinking back to my childhood, I can't remember anyone being baptized at FA. I know they had to do that somehow, but I can't remember. Did they take new Christians out to Don Nie's lake, or did they have a baptistery hidden out in the back somewhere that I didn't know about?

I'm just curious. Thanks.

Duncan

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

11-18-2005, 05:29 PM

I was baptized at FA. If you remember in the FA building(the new one not the glory barn) Just down from the bathrooms at the main entrance there was a baptismal pool(it was in a room that was locked up most of the time). It was across from the nursery. They sometimes would baptize people between services on Sundays. Other people were baptized various places. My siblings were baptized in my Grandpa's creek behind his house. I believe Terry Knafel lived on a lake and I faintly remember that they might have done some there, but I'm not certain.

duncan (duncan)

11-21-2005, 01:52 PM

Thanks for the feedback, Cougar.

I remember the main entrance to the building with bathrooms and the nursery on the left, but I can't remember the baptistery.

Thanks again, and have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Duncan

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

11-23-2005, 02:16 PM

It's pretty sad that the entire discussion ceases when the antagonist is gone. Everyone keeps posting that they would like to have a meaningful discussion but when the opportunity arises no one does? I guess the conflict is more entertaining.

duncan (duncan)

11-23-2005, 08:12 PM

Cougar,
You're exactly right. I guess it's more fun to beat up on someone than to examine our own lives.

Here are a few thoughts that I will throw out regardinging FA, and anyone can respond:

1) Does anyone know of any video or movie footage of Dr. Freeman? I know they did closed-circuit TV for the nursery, but I don't know if anyone recorded it.
2) Does anyone know what happened to Steve Kinsey, the Friday night song leader?
3) Does anyone remember Jimmy Bagwell? He was the guy that rode a moped to church.
4) Did I read somewhere that Bruce Kinsey has started preaching again somewhere? Does anyone know where?

Happy Thanksgiving.
Duncan

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

11-24-2005, 02:57 AM

I'm not sure that I can answer any of your questions. I had read somewhere that Dr. Freeman had done a recorded appearance on the whole JDS Heresy issue, but I haven't been able to find it. I have asked the same question about the live recordings, I thought I would like to go back and watch just to see what my opinion was now 20 years later, but to date no one has ever replied that there were any tv recordings. Faith Ministries might have some, I guess Mark would be the one to ask on that since he deals with Joe Brenneman who I understand runs what is left of FA. My guess there wasn't since we weren't supposed to have TV's to play it on? I don't remember Jimmy Bagwell. I haven't been able to track down either of the Kinsey's. I had been told that Bruce was selling cars somewhere but that is all I can comment on either. My dad and I were talking about a Carl Lehman and a African American that used to attend there that were accountants, we run into them every once in awhile at Continuing Ed seminars. I don't know if you remember either of them. The other day I was in the Penguin Point in Syracuse and on the wall they had the employees of the month and there were several of the Runyan children on the list. I remember going over to their house a time or two. They might have been younger than you Duncan. Have a happy thanksgiving. This is one holiday I'm glad to celebrate now. Never saw a problem with this one!

healed (healed)

11-30-2005, 03:40 AM

I still sense alot of nostalgic feelings, which only leads to defensive feelings latter. I think the fact that Hobart Freeman is listed under Factnet.orgs site is proof that it was a destructive cult. Factnet says "Since 1993, we have been to destructive cults, fundamentalism,
mind control, and mental coercion/torture what
Amnesty International has been to physical torture".

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

11-30-2005, 04:51 PM

And you believe everything that you read on the internet. You have come a long way since your FA days. What really amazes me even more is one of your biggest complaints with FA is the controlling nature in which it was run, you left and joined the military. An even further level of control(in which you couldn't leave on your own free will), you are a puzzling individual for sure. Many of us are nostalgic because that's where we spent our much of our childhood, whether we agreed with it or not that's where we grew up. Many of the friends we had growing up and still have attended(past tense-meaning no longer) there, I'm sorry I'm not going to throw aways years and years of friendship just because the circumstances in which we met were not always the best, if that makes us nostalgic then so be it.

(Message edited by cougarxr72 on November 30, 2005)

duncan (duncan)

12-01-2005, 08:46 PM

Healed,
You are exactly right, and Cougar stated it pretty well. I know your childhood didn't go very well, and you blame FA. I accept that and totally understand why you would feel that way.

The fact, however, is that some of us had a pretty good childhood, and our parents did not beat us. My best friend in the world is a childhood friend from FA who lives in Indiana. We were the Best Man at each other's weddings and still see each other once or twice a year. He has nothing to do with FA, and I am not sure if he is going to church anywhere.

The point is, he and I have a common bond because of some of the things we experienced as kids. Sure, I had to leave the room during the class Christmas party or during a puppet show, but I'm not scarred for life because of it. I had other kids make fun of me while I was in school, but I got over it.

At the same time, my life was very simple as a child. We didn't have a TV, so I spent my time riding my BMX bike and playing basketball with some friends across the street. I would build clubhouses out in the woods by our house and play in them for hours. Even as I type this, I think about how much fun I had as a child.

As for Dr. Freeman, I really wasn't old enough to understand everything he preached, so I don't really worry about it. You stated that nostalgia leads to being defensive. I'm not here to defend Dr. Freeman, but I would defend my childhood as one that was better that what most children experience today.

Duncan

duncan (duncan)

12-20-2005, 01:53 PM

Hello everyone!

It sure has been quiet around here over the last month.

I thought I would take this opportunity to wish all the ex-FA folks a Merry Christmas. I also want to wish all the current FA folks a happy non-pagan Love Day!

May God have mercy on us in this upcoming year and continue to bless us more than we deserve.

Duncan

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-21-2005, 11:19 AM

Hi Duncan,

It's nice and quiet around here when the troublemaker doesn't post his sewrage at everyone. Now we can all post with confidence!
The troublemaker, BTW, was banned from the FA Paltalk room for a while, called the current pastor who let him back in, and now is causing division again by disagreeing with what the pastor preaches. It seems like you can't change the spots of a leopard.

Anyway, thanks for holiday wishes, as amusing as it was.

God bless you Duncan. I hope we can have some continuing fellowship over things that really matter.

Lord bless the rest of the posters here too. I miss talking with you guys.

Mark

(Message edited by mark1124 on December 21, 2005)

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

12-23-2005, 01:30 PM

It has been extremely quiet lately. Is Hombre still around what about healed? Any of them. Anyway Merry Christmas to all even if you don't celebrate it enjoy your day off.

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-24-2005, 11:55 AM

Cougar, since fivefoldfalseprophet has left, it has been extremely quiet. He is still doing his antics against me, BTW. But that's him.

Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, whether you celebrate it or not.

God bless

Mark

40days40years (40days40years)

12-24-2005, 11:46 PM

So why did fiver delete most of his posts? Has he been told to be quiet? I wish he would have addressed the fact that church secutity in the old days was a defacto army kind of. If he gets thrown out of where he is going now will he be back?

You FA folks have got it easy. You don't have to buy a tree, drop pine needles everywhere and then get the thing to stand up straight in the stand. Then spend hours decorating the thing. Not much excitement there for such a deadly pagan symbol and Jessica Simpson in her cute red outfit won't even help me set the thing up. -- Merry Christmas-- Hey at least I employed some tree growers in Oregon.

One question did Hobart Freman believe he was an apostle? did he believe in the office for today?

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-25-2005, 12:52 PM

Hi 40...

To answer your questions:

1.) Fiver deleted most of his posts because he wanted to make himself look good and the rest of us look bad. He still thinks that I did wrong and will not admit that it was he that wronged me as well as everyone else. I opened the door to friendship and reconciliation but he would have none of it. If you notice, the only posts that he did not delete are the ones that made me look bad, or the ones which he read into my comments.

For instance, he thinks that I supported the Iraq war, which I don't. He thinks that I posted a joke on a pornographic website, which I didn't. He thinks that I said that Jesus died for me and not for him. HHe thinks he is a prophet, hence the name "Fivefoldprophet", claiming God gave him the name, and that prophecy that he gave to everyone who disagreed with him. He even gave the prophesy against Faith Assembly and then claims it was fulfilled. He is a known troublemaker with us and he will not repent, and if he does, he apologizes just to get himself back in everyone's good graces and then starts all over again. He did so recently by calling the pastor of FA and then goes in his chat room and PM's people telling them that he disagrees with the pastor's teaching. Need I say more?

As far as the Christmas tree thing, I would say that it was not Hobart Freeman that taught against the holiday alone. In fact, at first I thought it was just a Jehovah's Witness teaching. In reality, a good encyclopedia will tell you about the origin of Christmas, and that it does have pagan roots to it. Brother Freeman mentioned that; that a good encyclopedia would tell you that. I won't condemn anyone who does celebrate it though.

Regarding Brother Freeman himself, he did not consider himself to be an apostle. He considered himself as a teacher. Yes he did believe that the office was for today. An apostle is one who establishes churches (one of his functions). The only church that Bro. Freeman established, to my knowledge, was his own...Faith Assembly. There were ministers from that church that went out and established their own works. But no, he was not an apostle.

God bless, brother. If there is anything else you would like to know, please feel free to ask. If you would like to do it offlist and email me privately, that will be fine too.

Have a wonderful day in the Lord

Mark

40days40years (40days40years)

12-25-2005, 01:18 PM

Thanks Mark have a great day. I know that some of the originals of this country were very against christmas trees, maybe it was the pilgrams or the puritans can't remember but it was one of them. The thing is a celtic pagan cymbol for sure but I put it in the same category as preachers being upset at Sesame street on tv. I respect your position on Iraq but I am not willing to say for sure that removing a mass murderer like Saddam is wrong because the guy was like Hiltler. This thing going on over there was predictable after 9-11, in my mind it is between God and George Bush. You know Babylon is mentioned in the end times, perhaps it is in referance to Rome like some scholars say? but many evangelicals think Babylon in Iraq needs to be rebuilt. Who knows what is going on in George Bushes brain, maybe he thinks he is fulfilling prophecy or maybe he thinks he was trying to protect us from an evil man aquiring nukes. God knows but does anybody else. Have a great day and you to Fiver.

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-25-2005, 02:18 PM

Hi 40....

Just a quick clarification on the Irag war thing...

One night, in my Paltalk room, when the Iraq war broke out, I led the room in a prayer. I prayed for a quick war, knowing full well that there would be much killing there, like any war has had. I prayed for the war to be over with quickly to reduce the number of casualties. Perhaps it was not the right wording or whatever. But God knows what I meant and that is all I care about anyway, whether anyone at FA or Fiver thinks otherwise. Fiver thought I supported the war by this prayer and then his accusations against me escalated from there. He thought that I wanted to see people killed and that is diametrically opposed to what I was trying to accomplish. He has tried to get people to side with him and against me and this was one instance of Fiver reading into my comments.

As far as Saddam is concerned...well, it is God who sets rulers in office and it is God who removes them as well. I am glad to see him removed from power for the sake of those people over there in Iraq. The main thing now is to continue to pray for Bush as he needs our support (by prayer if anything) and for the people in Iraq to keep them safe.

As always...the Middle East is the place to keep our eyes open, and to pray to God that we are accounted worthy to escape all the things that are predicted in the scriptures that will come upon the earth. We need to be ready, as the scriptures tell us that the bride makes herself ready.

God bless and have a wonderful day, my brother.

Mark

healed (healed)

12-26-2005, 10:52 AM

It would seem Mark is overly infactuated with Five Fold Fool (aka Fiver) as it seems you never miss a beat when it comes to quoting all thing Fiverish, like all the "slander" that Fiver accused you of. I think you want the Fiver to be your friend. As of Christmas, that wasnt the only holiday banned by FA, all of them were. Not suprisingly, being the cult that FA was. I was shocked birthdays werent, I guess somebody found something in the "word" where a birthday was celebrated. If things were have to continued like they were, I was sure that everyday jeans and other "wordly" wear were going to be banned and the herd was going to start wearing robes like they wore back in Jesus day. Imagine going shopping for groceries with your family wearing that. It seemed every time I came home from school to have the "privilage" of getting to sit out my afternoon listening to an hour and half tape, and hour of bible reading and an hour of prayer, then doing my homework, that there was some new rule mentioned, this or that was wrong, like toothpaste with floride was of the devil or some other ridiculous bullsh+t.

healed (healed)

12-27-2005, 02:38 AM

The celebration of Christmas is not a big deal for me, anyways you dont miss something you never had. It is true that Christ did not teach anyone to celebrate his birth or death (Easter) and both holidays origins are rooted in pagan beliefs. The early Christains most likely didnt celebrate the original ritual, but it was latter merged into Christian beliefs. If the intent is good, I dont have a problem with it, but I can understand a conservative Christian not celebrating it. The problem with the misdirected teachings of Freeman is that he tried to be a carbon copy of the early church as he imagined it and live like hermits. Life then and now are two entirely different things. If we were to somehow step back in time to what the early church was doing, we would probally be shocked at what was going on. The bible has been rewritten many times with books missing from it.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

12-28-2005, 02:06 PM

I agree with you Healed, Mark is infatuated with FiveFold for some reason and Christmas is not a big deal to me either it is an expensive holiday to say the least. FiveFold doesn't agree with his point of view. Just let it drop Mark. In every one of your last 6 posts you bring it up. Five has gone away for the time being let's talk about something else. Happy New Year to All.

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-28-2005, 11:08 PM

Me? Infactuated with fivefold?? I needed a good laugh. But you are right. Fivefold is past history and he can cause trouble for someone else. He is not worth the time. Yea rather, I would rather talk with the rest of you folks about more important things than him.

God bless and I pray that 2006 will be a blessed year for all of you

Mark
(Delivered from 5-fold)

drallen_wilson (drallen_wilson)

12-29-2005, 12:43 AM

To mark1124. This is Dr. Allen Wilson. The one thing I like about you is the fight in your faith. Blessings to you. I'd like to get some of Dr. Freemans tapes. Do you still have my email address?

drallen_wilson (drallen_wilson)

12-29-2005, 12:45 AM

To mark1124. This is Dr. Allen Wilson. The one thing I like about you is the fight in your faith. Blessings to you. I'd like to get some of Dr. Freemans tapes. Do you still have my email address?

mark1124 (mark1124)

12-29-2005, 04:26 AM

Hi Allen. Nice to see you. It's been a long time.
No. I don't think I have it. Mine is mark1124@verizon.net. Please email me and I can get you connected to getting some tapes. Now Dr. Freeman's messages are on CD's - either audio or MP3. It's nice that they are now digitized.

And I appreciate your compliment. God bless you. I hope to hear from you soon. And BTW...were you in the Deeper Life and Discipleship room recently on Paltalk, perhaps close to the end when the tape was finished and I closed the room? I thought that might have been you.

Anyway God bless and I hope to hear from you soon.

Mark

duncan (duncan)

01-03-2006, 10:28 PM

Happy New Year, everyone!

I had a wonderful time away from work over the past couple of weeks. It was tough to come back today. I'm glad to see that people are posting messages again.

In case any of you were wondering, I had a great Christmas. My parents still do not celebrate Christmas, but my wife's family does. As such, I look at Christmas as a time with my family and my wife's family.

Finally, the best news I can share with the board is that my 6-yr old asked Jesus to come into her heart. She has been asking me questions for about 6 months, when finally she told me that she didn't want to stand before Jesus as a grown-up and never have asked him into her heart. My wive and I took her to meet with our pastor, who asked her a lot of questions to make sure she understood what she was doing. Then, we all knelt down in his office, and she prayed. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life!

I hope all of you have a very blessed year.

Duncan

mark1124 (mark1124)

01-04-2006, 01:27 AM

Duncan,

That is wonderful news. Praise the Lord!. I know that the angels in heaven rejoiced when she got saved. And you know something...it is good that she received Jesus early in life.

Thank you for sharing that with us. It is a real blessing.

Mark

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-04-2006, 02:56 PM

I attended a home church in Ohio that was an 'offshoot' of FA. We even traveled to FA for the classes offered by Dr. Freeman back when he taught Old Testament theology, Hebrew, Greek, Escatology and such. Jerry Ervin traveled to Ohio to preach to our church on Thursday nights.

I dropped out of College to live in the Warsaw area so I could attend all the classes and meetings. This was back in the 70's which should give you an idea of my age.

Eventually I moved back to Ohio and attended the home church group that sat under Dr. Freemans teaching.

I tell you all this so you'll know I'm not some crank that thinks they know all about FA...I've been there and done that.

My opinion of Dr. Freeman was that he was good teacher in many areas but seriously flawed in others. I watched as over time we lost our love and saw all sorts of legalistic nonsense creep in. I watched as the children and people died and started questioning to myself what's going on?

That home church group broke up years ago. The leader of the home church group got accused of molesting a teenage girl. (This was after Dr. Freeman died). The faith of many became shipwwrecked. Some for a time and some never made it back. I made it back, thank the Lord, but not under that teaching.

duncan (duncan)

01-04-2006, 03:23 PM

Corinth,

Thanks for the post. I think you expressed very well what a lot of people feel. It seems to be the general belief among most people that things started out great, but somewhere along the way the train became derailed. The question that remains debatable is this: Why did the train derail? There are as many opinions as there are posters.

As for house churches, my father used to preach in a house church in Ohio on the second Tuesday of each month. When I didn't have school the next day, I would go with him and play my guitar. The church was located about an hour southwest of Akron.

I'm glad to hear that the bad experiences you witnessed did not drive you away. Continue to trust in the Lord with all your heart, and He will direct your paths.

Duncan

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-04-2006, 04:15 PM

Duncan,

Our house Church was in Celina, OH. It was the home of Dave and Joyce Miller.

healed (healed)

01-08-2006, 05:07 AM

An interesting thing that I find about the leadership of FA is that alot of them went their own ways, into other denominations or "worldly" careers, leaving the people they had taught for so long on their own. They preached this message of faith etc., but left latter. I never seemed to hear any of them offering an explanation or disqualifying what they had taught. What about all the "faithful" following out there, like my relative, still bound up in the legalistic teachings of the original Freeman?

mark1124 (mark1124)

01-08-2006, 01:34 PM

Healed, the only reason people like you called Freeman legalistic is because you could not live it. You can not discern between legalism and living a holy separated life. And neither can anyone else who say that Freeman's teachings became legalistic. What Freeman taught was not legalistic but separation from the world and its ways. Anything else is a deception.

And please don't bother replying expecting me to reply...Because what I say is a fact and the truth. I don't care if you were there or not. I don't care if I am looking from the outside and never attended the church. Remember. I have all the tapes. I listen to them. And I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me and am able to discern things. You are not saved so how can you discern them? The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-08-2006, 05:08 PM

What's Holy about being told you shouldn't wear Nike (or other designer)Sneakers because they have stripes on the side of them and your told that's how Homosexuals recognize one another. That's not legalism? Please...oh and I could go on and on.....

Mark, there is a difference between living a Holy separated life and being in bondage to another Mans opinion. You told Healed you don't care if he was there or not. Sounds a little cold hearted brother. To tell you the truth, I was there too. You don't care about that and my unique perspective on the issue, well that's ok with me.

Like you I don't really want to get into an argument over who has the real truth, been there done that. I also repect your feelings about Dr. Freeman. In many ways he was brilliant in his exegesis of scripture. In other ways I believe he was flawed.

Like so many others, Healed carries some scars from attending FA. I have a few myself.

Peace in Christ.}

mark1124 (mark1124)

01-08-2006, 06:40 PM

Perhaps you can email Joe Brenneman and ask him about why Bro. Freeman spoke out against sodomite shoes. He may know more about it than me.

If that was they way that sodomites dressed in those days, I would say that would be part in parcile of avoiding the ways of the world.

As far as healed is concerned, he is trying to obey the word of God with an unregenerate heart.
Impossible, with the exception of how to get saved.

You, as well as others, are walking in the word as best as you can and that is great. And God has healed a lot of hurts that happened there. But whose fault were the hurts? The message, the messanger, or the congregation?

I will say this though. It got me to thinking about it. I just wonder how I would react if I went through all the things that everyone went through. So I am not all that cold after all.
I went through some hurts from a "Freemanite church" years ago but I am still with the message. Why? Because of Freeman? No because the teaching is the most sound that I have heard in a long time.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-08-2006, 08:25 PM

Mark,

Your a good man who means well. Honestly I don't have the answers as to who's fault it was.

We will know someday. Like it says in I Cor 13:12.

By the way, I have emailed Joe Benneman concerning where his brother Jim is. We had a nice conversation and I think highly of him, even though doctrinally we won't agree on many things.

Your friend in Christ

mark1124 (mark1124)

01-08-2006, 09:31 PM

I know that I have wrestled with the question as to why God took Brother Freeman. I have my opinions but that's all it is. Everyone has an opinion. But like you say, we will all know someday. I know that it must have been difficult for you and everyone else who went there. And I know that God is doing a healing work in the lives of those who went there.

I agree that Joe is a good man. He is trying to keep Faith Ministries running as well as the church. His views are obviously going to be the same as Bro. Freeman in many respects. I too think very highly of him. I am glad that he is continuing the work there.

I too am...

Your friend in Christ
Mark

healed (healed)

01-09-2006, 03:41 AM

Nobody took Freeman, he died because of his condition. If he would of sought medical attention, he would of probally recovered. If I am bitten by a rattlesnake while moving firewood and die hours latter, its not because nobody took me, its because the toxins were designed to kill and if I didnt use the sense that God gave me to get some help, then my dumbazz would die. Freeman was a dumbazz who took a wrong exit and never got back on the highway, he just kept going and going, off in his own direction.

duncan (duncan)

01-09-2006, 10:37 PM

Well, well, well - Look who has logged back onto their computer. The Tree Boy returneth!

Did anyone have a betting pool on when our old friend would return? Whoever picked the second week of the year hit the jackpot! Don't spend all your loot in one place.

I wonder if he has a T1 connection in his RV or can only hook up to a DSL line? Maybe they have WIFI at the Big Lick Antique Show.

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...

duncan (duncan)

01-09-2006, 10:45 PM

Wow! Did any of you notice that the Fiver just did a drive-by on us(or a Post-by, in this case)?He posted and then deleted within minutes. For those of you who may have missed it, the following is a copy of his post:

------------------------------------------------------------
FACTNet Message Board: Religious Cults and Sects: Faith Assembly / Hobart Freeman: Understanding Faith Assembly
------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by saintsarenotsinners (saintsarenotsinners) on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 4:29 pm:

Mark are you a sinner?
this is only the tip of the iceburg
of the stuff you post on the web!

Read 1 john 3;6
1 John 3:6 (KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Google Groups : alt.comedy.slapstick.3-stooges

FREE PHONSEX DATING - these girls are not paid - they call for ...
There's nobody on the line. Yeah but I'm expecting
a call. The line's busy...I'm tawkin'
alt.comedy.slapstick.3-stooges - Jan 31 2004, 10:57 pm by Mark S.
Scaliotti - 4 messages - 2 authors

??????????????????/////////////////////////////////

( also Mark do you believe the recent death at FA has brought God
glory? "rejecting medical" )
////////////////////////////////////

God does not hear sinners ;John 9;31

also
please explain

why you say you did not pray for war ,the three times you led your FA
endorsed room in prayer for a quick war,,

but then turn around over and over and say
I have the blood of all the americans on my hands because I would not
pray with you for a quick war!
Please explain???

It appears you by your statements have broke the sixth commandment by
supporting war
( thou shall not kill),,
and the nineth commandment by saying you never prayed for war when you
did!
( thou shall not lie)

Breaking the commandments is transgression of the Law and sin! making
your actions sinning!!!!

Mark are you a sinner?

read Gal 2;17
Galatians 2:17 (KJV) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ,
we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

also what is the reason you are not the ADmin at FA's room anymore? is
it because you were sinning?

(whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him) "yet you
claim to abide in HIM""

becareful read REV 3;5 Jesus will blot some peoples names out of the
book of life!

you have already had one prophesy come to pass

saintsarenotsinners (saintsarenotsinners)

01-09-2006, 10:59 PM

Hey Duncan rememeber when you said I am Gay (posted)
when I said it is wrong for Churches to endorse Gays

I have a question???

Are you a sinner?

1 John 3:6-10 (KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:
whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him.

[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous,
even as he is righteous.

[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.

[10] In this the children of God are manifest
,
and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,
neither he that loveth not his brother.

//////////////////////////////////////////
calling me Gay for speaking out against Gays is wrong!
and mark even agreed by answering you

Mark and duncan are you sinners?

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-11-2006, 02:10 AM

mark1124,

Thanks for the warning. However you won't see me getting in a peeing contest with a internet crank.

The internet is full of unfortunate folks that are mentally unstable and pose themselves as normal posters.

He can prophesy against me until the cows come home. After they do I'll still get up in the next morning have a cup of coffee, eat a little breakfast and go about my normal routine.

They'll get up the next day, wonder who they are, then think about who they can tick off next. Such a waste of life and a pathetic existence. Earnestly pray for them.

My advice is to ignore posters such as these. They are a waste of time and they can vex your spirit...if you know what I mean.

Yours in the Lord

mark1124 (mark1124)

01-11-2006, 03:38 AM

Oh yes I know what you mean. He has a history of causing trouble to those who don't agree with him. Other posters in this forum will agree with me on this. He has been doing this to me for three years.

His threats and his postings don't bother me anymore. All sinner (Michael) needs is the devil cast out of him.

Anyway...thanks for the encouragement brother.

Mark

healed (healed)

01-20-2006, 02:56 AM

Another poster on another site suggested that God had took "Brother" Freeman in order to prevent more deaths in the congregation, mainly children. That is a good arguement. I think Ive read other die hard Freemanites suggest that God took Freeman in order to spare him from what was about to come, the grand jury investigation into the deaths. I tend to agree with the person who said that God took him in order to prevent more deaths, it makes sense and Im sure it did prevent more suffering and death. Im not sure what would of happened to Freeman if he was found responsible for the numerous deaths in his congregation, perhaps nothing would of come of it. I read where a church in Florida had similar issues and they got a warning. Perhaps the powers that be realized this and decided that it was in mankinds best interest if Brother Freeman was removed.

40days40years (40days40years)

01-20-2006, 08:54 AM

Maybe Hobart Freeman was just an old man who would not get his infection treated for whatever reason? I may be off but if you like to drive over a hundred miles an hour on the freeway all the time and one day your tire blows out and you crash and die is that Gods will? Did God take you? Maybe you just drove to fast.

Mark and others I know your a big fan of Freeman but what about all the young adults out there who are very bitter at missing out on their childhood? Hobart Freeman nuked their childhood, destroyed it. It is one thing for an adult to make decisions but the kids had no choice. If this ministry is so Godly than why are there a lot of adults who were exposed to him as kids who are just furious and full of rage?, they post here and there are lots of them like that out there. If I was a kid I would beg God not to be raised under that. Freeman turned God into a killjoy for a lot of these kids. What happened to their childhood seems like a crime.

That is the thing that bugs me, we as adults can debate Copeland, national defense, doctors...etc. but what about what this ministry does to the kids? What do you honestly think about it?

40days40years (40days40years)

01-20-2006, 09:14 AM

Also in addition to the destroyed childhoods you have to look at the deaths of a lot of people at Faith Assembly. I remember seeing some old woman heart broken that her daughter died trying to follow the faith message. The young woman had been a nurse I believe the death was in child birth but I may be mistaken. The simple intervention of a doctor could have saved her. Just think about that old woman who could have a living daughter and many grandchildren from her and the good times they could have enjoyed? Were all sinners but that old woman got ripped off by Freeman, her old age was much sadder than it should have been and don't forget future grandchildren were denied her because of Freemans dogmatic stand to the end. O.K I understand a guy like Hobart fighting to the end over the mark of the beast but over visting a doctor or a pair of shoes? You guys who like Freeman don't let him destroy your childrens childhood.

hombre (hombre)

01-20-2006, 02:57 PM

First, I will make this as brief as I can.
Secondly, most know me here as a 'die hard Freemanite'.
Thirdly, those who have read my posts know that I also have
a modified view of the medical profession, and that I neither condemn them,
nor do I insist that they are the only way.

This is a free country...the last time I checked..or until the Democrats have their way
in modifying our constitution, and taking away as many rights as they can.
....that means that we are free to worship in whatever manner we choose,
including believing in Divine healing if that is what we desire; and regardless
of whether or not this is a free country, a person is always free to follow
the dictates of their own conscience, knowing full well that he/she may have
a price to pay for that, to the authorities, or to their own belief system.

Therefore, That is a partial answer to 'healed'.....Freeman could not be found guilty
due to the first amendment to the constitution of this country:

' Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ....'

Secondly, any argument regarding 'why' God allowed Hobart Freeman to die,
has to be taken up with the Almighty, as He is the only one who knows....unless
He has told you. My personal viewpoint is as immaterial as anyone elses'.

hombre (hombre)

01-20-2006, 02:59 PM

Hobart Freeman may have died of an infection to his foot, and some may say,
that he could have received medical attention and been fine. I disagree.
I attended the funeral of a friend this last year, who was neither a Freemanite,
nor did he ever even hear the faith message, being an avowed agnostic,
until the very end, when he realized that he was faced with eternity,
and gave up his heart to Jesus in the moment of desperation that faces us all.
My friend was a diabetic, whose body was wasted a piece at a time for almost
30 years. He had tremendous suffering...and I'm sure that throughout that time
he did nothing but blame God for his condition.
Nevertheless, the medical establishment gave him precious little comfort,
and the drugs he took daily continued to eat away at his body. One day he
stepped on something, and got a cut on his heel. The cut refused to heal,
until it was a gaping hole and the bone was rotting away....the doctors couldn't
do a thing. he was in and out of the hospital a dozen times in the space of 2 years,
the wound continuing to wear his body down; until finally they amputated his leg,
and he died about a week following surgery, due to the fact that his body
couldn't take any more. The insulin, over the years, had actually 'hardened' his heart,
and it was too weak to be able to keep up with the increased demand that the
operation trauma had placed upon it.

Everyone pays a price, regardless of what they decide to follow.
This idea that the medical establishment can cure anything
is nothing but a huge stinking ball of BS.

hombre (hombre)

01-20-2006, 03:01 PM

I was married to a nurse.
Every day I came home and heard horror stories.
Code blue flashes every day, usually several times a day.
That means someone is on the verge of death.
Many, many people die in the hospital...babies, teens, adults.
I have a friend whose 12 year old nephew went in for cosmetic surgery,
to remove a cyst from his nose. The anesthesiologist made a mistake,
and for the past 30 years, the boy...now man..is living in a vegetative state,
on the top floor of the hospital, deprived of his entire life, by the shortcomings
of an 'educated' doctor.

My father died of a abdominal aneurism, though he was otherwise as healthy as a horse.
at 75 he belonged to a health club, and swam 20 laps per day, and worked out on the machines.
he was way more fit that I was, and I'm still sure that he could have whipped my a** anytime
he wanted too. But his time was up. Basically, what happens when an abdominal aneurism
explodes, is that a persons blood is drained into their abdomen from the main abdominal artery,
directly from the heart, and within 4-5 seconds, they are dead. Even if he had been on an operating
table and prepped with surgeons lined up and prepared at that point, it would have been too quick to do anything about it. That condition is almost never found within the scope of a normal examination.
One has to be looking for that specifically. It is also said to be hereditary, yet he did not know because
when he was only a child, his own father died from a freak accident. Should we blame God then, because
his 'childhood' was fatherless and grim, that he grew up in the depression, offered his sevice to others
fighting through WW2 for our freedoms, and to top it off, the foreknowledge of his own death
was witheld from him?

Death comes to all, regardless. It is our choice how we confront it.

hombre (hombre)

01-20-2006, 03:02 PM

There are three stories from my life. I can give a lot more,
because I have seen quite a bit in 53 years.

As the saying goes...hindsight is 20-20.
Maybe some could have been 'saved', maybe not.
Those who chose their own fate did just that.

As for the children who are bitter.

What exactly did you lose?

Nintendo games?...I never had those either when I was a kid.

Friendships with kids in school that persected you?
What good are friends like that anyway?...besides, once you grow up they all move away anyway.
I haven't seen kids from my youth since...well...a long, long time.
I have the life that I choose to make for myself right now.

...so are you directing your own life, or are you crying about what you can't change?

duncan (duncan)

01-20-2006, 03:21 PM

40days,

I don't consider myself a "hardcore Freemanite," but I am a hardcore, conservative Christian. I agree with a lot of what Dr. Freeman preached, and I disagree with a lot of his interpretations, as well.

I was one of those kids whom you believe had their childhood "destroyed" by FA. Just because I couldn't watch TV, couldn't play organized sports and couldn't watch puppet shows, I hardly consider my childhood destroyed. I know there are some, like healed, who had parents that beat up on them. However, I can tell you that type of parenting was not preached or encouraged at FA. I had to deal with a lot of crap, but I'm not sitting around in group therapy because of it. I think it made me a lot stronger as an adult.

Just my take on things,
Duncan

40days40years (40days40years)

01-21-2006, 10:49 AM

duncan I am glad you turned out fine I guess the main thing is that the parents love their children like the Lord says.

hombre, are you trying to argue for my side? Your diabetic friend was kept alive for years by doctors but like you said when it is your time to go it your time to go. However my analogy of the guy speeding is still accurate. If an adult hands a kid some matches and then the little kid burns the forest down who is responsible? If Freeman had enough influence to prevent people from wearing certain shoes and shirts with writing on them and teaching people that doctors were satanic then he can be held responsible for allowing family lines to die out because of his views. The truth hurts sorry. Your wife saying people die in hospitals does not cut it since the fact is only the sick, dying and injured go to hospitals in the first place. It is like saying animals die at a slaughter house but in that case death is intentional. Doctors make mistakes, millions of patients if just 1% of the time something goes wrong wallah! you have an excuse to attack hospitals. If you get cut up by a saw why does everyone run to the emergency room? I had a runaway infection by being pricked by a rotting thorn I put everything on it and it just got worse. Went to a doctor and he gave me some steroid cream and presto. HEALED! praise the Lord. Put on some glasses and now I see Praise the Lord.

hombre (hombre)

01-21-2006, 05:40 PM

I am not siding with you, or anyone.

I am stating facts.

People are born, they live, they die.

People make choices about what they do with their lives.

Some choose hospitals, some choose faith.

Regardless, everyone eventually must face their maker.

I have used medicine, I have used faith as well.

I don't have all the answers, I am not God.

I do however, take issue with those who seek to limit
not only our freedoms under the Constitution,
but also with those who seek to limit our inalienable rights
as human beings, to make choices for ourselves.

There are numerous verses in the Bible which state that
believers have the power to heal. Here are 2.

hombre (hombre)

01-21-2006, 05:41 PM

And these signs shall follow them that believe; ..
... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. James 5:14-15

In addition, this is a part of the 'Great Commission' which many evangelists love to
banty around with, forgetting the entirety of the message.

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits,
to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.......
......And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
heal the sick , cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matt.10:1-8

After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two
before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few:
pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
........And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
and heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luke 10:1-9

hombre (hombre)

01-21-2006, 05:42 PM

...one may argue that this 'healing' ministry was accomplished only for the sake of Israel,
however, we continue to see this pattern as Jesus sends forth an additional 70, and on
into the time of the early church, finding, as I have already noted, verses pertaining to the power
of the believer long after Jesus ascended, and the gentiles received the promise of salvation
through faith in Jesus Christ, which promise, may I note is not only for the state of being beyond
death, but for the here and now, body, soul and spirit.

I cannot argue with what the Bible states VERY clearly.
.....neither will I cover it up or pretend it doesn't exist as so many do.

If we are not healed by the power of God, and we are believers meeting conditions,
we must each individually search for our own answers, beginning with whether or not we
believe the book and EVERYTHING in it to be true, that it is the AUTHENTIC Word of God,
and that GOD DOESN'T LIE.

As I have stated, I am searching for answers myself, I don't know everything.

THIS I do know: EVERY MAN has a right to worship God as he sees fit,
and NO MAN is responsible for the way any other man worships God.

Those who seek to incriminate Hobart Freeman, should look first to what the Bible clearly states,
and make a mature decision to understand that what Hobart preached re: divine healing,
is nothing he made up on his own, to enslave people with; he merely showed us what was there.

From there, it is/was every mans' individual CHOICE to make.

Now then...I am done talking about this matter, to you, and everyone else on this board.
I have already written about it ad nauseum in previous posts.
For those who want to cry in their soup forever, and blame others...so be it.

40days40years (40days40years)

01-23-2006, 07:51 AM

O.K Hombre I believe in divine healing too I have been healed myself that way. I like the scriptures you presented. Where in the bible are "natural" doctors presented as satanic? Freeman said it or alluded to it. I don't have all the answers either but I guess your right, you have the freedom to believe anything you want but?. Do you have the right not to be confronted by your decisions you impose on others? You see Freeman put people in a box so they could not get help when things did not go the way he said they would. What is that box? this is the box. If we are not healed by the power of God, and we are believers meeting conditions,we must each individually search for our own answers, beginning with whether or not we believe the book and EVERYTHING in it to be true, that it is the AUTHENTIC Word of God,and that GOD DOESN'T LIE. - got it? do you understand?

Why did he die the way he did? was God sending a message? Does it not seem that God pulled the rug out from under him or was he an unbeliever?

(Message edited by 40days40years on January 23, 2006)

healed (healed)

01-23-2006, 12:57 PM

Well its refreshing to see somebody who has a different take on things than the rest of the crowd here. Yes 40daysand40years, Freeman did destroy many childhoods, because of his selfish and irresponsible teachings. Sure, there were those like Duncan who were perhaps the "elite" of FA, that is in the ministry ranks, so they were sheilded from the more extreme side of it I think. Freemans teachings did not directly destroy anyone, as Hombre tells us, its a free country, you didnt have to follow it, (speaking for adults, wasnt the case for the children) However, the danger in Freeman or any cults teaching is what they suggest. For example, an individual hasnt sought medical treatment for decades even though their condition is detoriating towards death. If they are to seek treatment now, it would comprimise their faith as this is what the faith healing message says. They might risk eternal damnnation for it. If a close relative ask them to get help and point out the failures of FA, they fight harder, after all its the devil speaking through me trying to discourage them. Through these "trails" of their faith, they hunker down more and bear the pain. These are strong chains that the Freeman legacy left behind. Its insane and cannot be justified.

hombre (hombre)

01-23-2006, 05:46 PM

Q. Where in the bible are "natural" doctors presented as satanic?
Freeman said it or alluded to it.

A. Several possibilities for this idea, come to mind.
1. The only mention of medical science in the scriptures
has negative connotations, the woman who spent all she had, yet
only grew worse....
2. Dr Luke, whom proponents of God healing through medical science
love to bring up, makes no mention whatsoever of healing through
medical science, and the gospels clearly magnify the supernatural
healings that Jesus Christ performed.
3. I have heard Hobart talk about the beginnings of medical
science in Egypt, and no doubt they were some of the earliest
to begin tampering with various procedures, like trepanning, etc...
hence their association with the occult.
4. Perhaps you have never read Dr. Medelsohns' book:
'Confessions of a Medical Heretic',
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0809241315/104-1802589-6599933?v=glance&n=283155
in which a very learned doctor/professor denounces his own profession
for various reasons, and labels the medical institution as a cult, itself.
This book, which came out in 1979, inspired not only Faith Assembly,
but the medical institution to begin to revamp its practices, particularly
with reference to female issues and childbirth.

...the Bible does not present medical science as Satanic, as in a chapter and verse
reference, but rather, it is the accumulation of theological teaching,
that would conclude healing from medical science to NOT be from God.
I also think that it is very clear to anyone that certain chemical compounds
help certain conditions, regardless of their morality, or position with God
with reference to their religion. The fact that an unbeliever can be healed
through drugs, or surgical procedures, is in its' very nature, contradictory
to the idea of healing through FAITH in God, alone..sans drugs, etc.

hombre (hombre)

01-23-2006, 05:49 PM

In that a person seeks healing outside of the realm of what God has promised
in His word, to do for His children....one could surmise then, or conclude that
not only is the healing NOT from God, but that it has as it's source, another
inspiration for its existence outside of Gods perfect will for the believer, which
pulls one away from trusting God, to trusting in something else......from there
it becomes very easy to conclude that the source would be Satanic.

The problem that all of us face as believers is what we are going to do,
individually, and corporately as local church bodies, with the scriptures
that I mentioned previously ( as well as numerous others ).
Hobart simply applied them consistently and logically. One can either
choose to believe or choose not to believe, but I don't believe in legislating
anything to anybody...it is a matter of personal conviction and belief.

Q. Do you have the right not to be confronted by your decisions you impose on others?
You see Freeman put people in a box so they could not get help when things did not go
the way he said they would. What is that box? this is the box.

A. What you and others on this board are not cognizant of,
perhaps because you were too young to begin to understand,
is that Hobart Freeman NEVER legislated anything.
I will SHOUT that until eternity.
What Hobart Freeman did, was to merely teach the Bible, in a very consistent
manner, showing people verses like I have already quoted, and left them
to face this literary quandary themselves. I personally believe that the book which
we have called the Bible, is divinely inspired...every jot and tittle. Once you have agreed to
that premise, the acceptance of the rest is a given....the problem I saw, and that eventually
forced me to leave, was not the teaching, for I could find nothing wrong with it, but rather
it was puerile peer pressure driven by a herd mentality, not by Hobart Freeman, but by
the confusion of individual SPIRITUAL responsibility and understanding, with the fulfilling
of a set of rules and governing principles by the which some thought they could twist
God's arm by means of.

hombre (hombre)

01-23-2006, 05:51 PM

For example: If I confess that I am healed by Jesus stripes
and don't say anything to the contrary, I will be healed.

Wrong.

Not only does one have to 'meet conditions' which are a given, and only an outward showing
of what one should believe in their heart, but one must also have a PROFOUND and MEANINGFUL
PERSONAL relationship with the risen Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST....even then...there are
trials, like Job, and situations that are NOT explained in the Bible...and that may never be explained.
What we as believers have to remember is that God IS GOD, and He can and will do whatever
He pleases, in justice, in mercy and whatever is right to Him within His sovereign pre-ordained
plan for this creation...which is.....by the way...just a little preposterous to think that God needs
to consult us or tell us everything He is doing so that we as little blades of grass are always
informed and up to speed on the Almightys' plans.

What I am getting at here is that Faith IS NOT a formula, which one can simply apply,
and expect things to just happen, like a magical trick,.... that WE as human beings
manage and conduct this 'magic' by means of our formulas and the exercise of OUR wills.

Your statement:

'so they could not get help when things did not go the way he said they would'.

...tells me exactly where not only you and others are/were at, but that my
postulation is absolutely 100% correct. One CANNOT look to others, one cannot look
to anyone except JESUS CHRIST...Jesus is not impressed by someone who can
repeat a formula and follow it like a robot....It is WAY more than that...
He wants to KNOW YOU, and if one denies the relationship, then what can one expect?

hombre (hombre)

01-23-2006, 05:52 PM

What Unhealed says about people hunkering down, I think is largely true,
and for the reason that he states, in that compromising would be a acceptance
of the fact that perhaps they didn't have 'faith'....which is what I was talking about
with reference to 'peer pressure', as well as a lack of understanding WHAT faith is.

If you are simply enduring pain, and gritting your teeth to get through it,
you might get a medal for being a hard a**, but that is all.

Like I said, I don't have all the answers, but I believe that one must approach the issue of
faith for ANYTHING, including healing, as a little child would, total trust and confidence,
doubting NOTHING, or you're not getting anything.

It IS way too easy to look at the swelling waves and begin to sink, as Peter did,
as I have done many times, and many others too. Faith can take a lifetime,
but there is always the grace of Jesus Christ.....so I condemn no man,
including Hobart Freeman.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-23-2006, 08:04 PM

Hombre,

I have to respectfully disagree with you that it wasn’t Dr. Freeman’s responsibility for the “puerile peer pressure driven by a heard mentality”, (and oh by the way that was a good line). I think in the end it was him that allowed this to happen, because of his dogmatic approach to healing. Yes I said dogmatic. You and I will just have to disagree on that one.

Hobart Freeman was brilliant in many aspects of his knowledge or scripture but I’m not going to give him a pass on the mentality of the group. Towards the end I remember hearing warnings if you left this ‘pure’ word you might not make it, or be assured that your faith is a saving one and other things. After I left for a long time I remember thinking I wasn’t saved anymore because I no longer attended FA. But like you I don’t and will never condemn the man. Doing so condemns me.

Take care friend

hombre (hombre)

01-23-2006, 09:40 PM

'Herd' mentality...NOT 'heard' mentality...

...which brings me to one of my favorite Steve Hill-isms:

'People hear what they want to hear, and believe what they want to believe'.

Why is it that some of us heard something different than others did?

Yes, I remember hearing what you heard about leaving the pure word,
etc. I left too.....I don't know what you experienced there, but I experienced
spiritual things that no other church experience can compare to.

Truth.

I am now like a man wandering a desert, yet supernaturally watered,
by my Lord, and kept from the mainstream delusions of church busywork,
and baby pablum formula. I am thankful for what I received from Hobart
Freeman....the Faith message has saved my life and mindset more times
than I can even remember. Personally, I would not want to live in this world
without it...yet so many do...and so many mainstream churches even preach against it....I'm not just talking divine healing here....I'm talking anything
beyond the sweet by and by...then there are the charismatic deceivers
and the rest of the wolves, who except for Hobarts' theology classes,
would have devoured me.

I will remain thankful for what Hobart left for all of us, and NOT resentful
for what some did not receive, willingly or otherwise.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-23-2006, 09:49 PM

Yea, after I sent that I realized I spelled 'Herd' wrong. Sorry about that. With my job I sometimes type faster than I should without doing the proper 'proof reading'. I did gradeeate 8th grade though...

Anyway, back to the discussion. Are you telling me you’re not going to any Church anymore?

40days40years (40days40years)

01-23-2006, 11:10 PM

Well Hombre God is sovereign. I have heard people in the healing ministry say "I don't know" when asked why one person who is an unbeliever or not living for God gets healed and another person who appears to have faith does'nt. Not to draw this out but to me medical stuff at times is like doing work on your plumbing or your car. Your body if it has the right conditions usually heals itself because it was designed that way but if it is put under undue stress and something goes wrong it may need a helping hand, divine or otherwise. Maybe you have had tropical fish?, you as a fish keeper have got to keep a watchfull eye on multiple things or those fish are gonna die. Maybe I have a more materialistic/physical mind set than you Hombre.

Hombre and others I did come across people at FA that were nice people and they loved the Lord and the Lord loves them but something there turned them a lot more mean than the Lord wants them to be. It is almost like they were blind to it. The christian message is suppose to be a message of kindness and joy.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-24-2006, 12:02 AM

Someone on another web site said it quite succinctly. They lost their joy. It became all a do and don’t culture.

When I first got into FA it was around late 1975. Back then the ‘Barn’ as we called it was a place that had such joy and enthusiasm. The Gospel was preached in its entirety; we actually went out and witnessed to others. Then as time went on and as we were taught ‘stronger meat’ as it were, things started to change. I noticed that we were less concerned about the lost than talking about how lost mainline denominations were. Which unfortunately is what I see too much of on these threads.

We spent a lot of time worrying about whether or not we were going to be the 144,000 ‘over comers’ than trying to lead a man or women into a saving relationship with Jesus.

What is it about Charismatic’s that when you disagree with them they want to consign you to hell at the drop of a hat?

hombre (hombre)

01-24-2006, 08:10 PM

40 days, we aren't so different, except that I define
Divine Healing, as being of supernatural origin.

Healing from doctors and medicine..is well....
healing from doctors and medicine.

I don't confuse the two, I don't see why others have to.

...unless.... they need to, by virtue of their unresolved
theological issues with Mark 16, etc.

Re: The mean spirited people from Faith Assembly issue:
I have heard the whole cruel issue till I'm blue in the face with it.
That is the oldest argument against the theology that Hobart presented
that I can remember. We were divisive, because we
didn't agree with everyone elses' viewpoint, on everything from
diving healing and faith for prosperity to the JDS heresy.

The Bible tells us that in the last days there will be people who
have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof, and for us
to turn away from them. ( 2 Tim.3:1-5 )

Paul also tells us that there are some people that we shouldn't even pray for,
and he prayed against Alexander the coppersmith.

Paul also encouraged church discipline.

The church is first and foremost a light on a hill.
People choose whether they want to live in the light,
or retreat into darkness.

hombre (hombre)

01-24-2006, 08:12 PM

I am also reminded of Pauls' exhortation to Timothy:

'I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is as much a part of the Bible as 1 Cor. 13, and John 3:16.

...it's just that lukewarm ministers are afraid to preach it,
for fear of losing their support.

The BIBLE is a divisive book, and our Lord was the first to point that out.
....If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,
and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26-27

James said:
...For in many things we offend all.
James 3:2

Paul said:
...strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who
by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 5:14

...I perceive that many who are younger than I, by age, and in the Lord,
who post here, do NOT have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil,
but rather enjoy what 'feels good' to them, regardless of the entirety of the Word of God.

That is the difference between 'religion' and 'Christianity'.

...not downing you, just saying, that it is time to quit playing like spoiled babies,
doing nothing but crying about what you think is right and wrong, and start measuring
what you believe and think based upon what is written....if.....that is....
...you want to call yourself.... 'a Christian'.

If however, you simply want to have a religion to play at, and feel good about,
there are ample resources out there on almost every corner to accommodate you.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-24-2006, 08:51 PM

Hombre,

You never answered my earlier post. I asked if you were not attending a church anymore. Are you.

Respectfully, Icor13

hombre (hombre)

01-24-2006, 09:45 PM

Icor:

No I am not currently attending a church because
the one I was attending:

1. Preaches AGAINST the faith message.
2. Preaches AGAINST the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as
an experience subsequent to salvation.
3. Preaches divine sickness as a method of witnessing
salvation to others.
4. Has a rigid worship scenario, whereby the Holy Spirit is
quenched via stupid announcements.
5. Has no building, yet keeps giving away money to
numerous and dubious missionaries.
6. Is Evangelical and Baptist in nature, as opposed to
Charismatic and having a balance between Evangelism
and Calvinism...which can become an obnoxious turn off to the lost.
7. The Evangelical influence has of late taken a turn toward
'Oprah-fication' and touchy-feely fulfillment, versus the preaching of the cross.
8. Good grief, they don't even know about the crucifixion of the self-life.
9. They placate themselves with historical narratives,
yet fail to grasp what the examples of the OT are all about: ie: FAITH.
10. They love holidays, especially Christmas,
which is a whole other topic.
11. NONE of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined
in 1 Cor. 12 are functioning...at all...anytime.
12......should I go on?

In short, not a good match.
I am not interested in attempting to make them see it my way,
how they worship is their prerogative.

Next question: Does that mean that I am:
'forsaking the assembly of the saints' ?

No, it means that I am turning away from those
who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-24-2006, 10:09 PM

Do you still live in the Warsaw area?

hombre (hombre)

01-24-2006, 11:02 PM

Icor:

I understand that you are newer than I am here, but I
have stated elsewhere, that I attended Faith Assembly
outreaches in Indianapolis, and was on the automatics
for Hobart Freeman, Steve Hill, and Bruce Kinsey.
....some have told me, and perhaps they are correct in
telling me so, that because I did not attend Faith Assembly
proper, I did not understand the extent of the legalism
that people experienced there....however....I heard every message,
every week, not only Hobarts, but Steves' and Bruces' as well,
not counting the 3 meetings a week I attended in Indy.
I have only the best to speak for the ministry, and as I have stated,
I believe, at least in my case, it was a matter of
peer presssure and people running around with a set of rules,
instead of applying the principles to their individual lives,
as the Spirit would have them to do.
Therefore, I think that, the fear of man became a motivating factor.

Why do you ask?

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-24-2006, 11:47 PM

I thought you might live in the Warsaw area. I get through there frequently and would like to meet you. Don't worry, I'm not a stalker.

For instance I had an email conversation with Joe Breneman a few weeks ago about his brother Jim. I knew Jim very well back in the 70's and Joe was kind enough to tell me how Jim was doing and where I might catch up with him. I intend to do just that next time I'm in the area.

I thought if you went to FA about the same time I did there is a good chance you and I might know each other.

But I see now you lived in the Indy area at the time. Sorry to ask you a question that has been asked of you before. Like you mentioned, I'm new here. I don't plan on staying around here for long. I discovered this site a few weeks ago and I don’t plan on staying around here for long. I was just interested in seeing where my old friends from FA might be.

Reading the rest of these posts just vexes my spirit. I don’t see how all of you can do this day in and day out and stay sane.

Anyway, thanks for your response and may God lead your path.

hombre (hombre)

01-25-2006, 12:11 AM

Sorry.

I still have a few friends from those days,
and I still love them dearly.

..as to how we can do this day in and day out,
I don't...only when I see something that pushes a button.
....in addition, writing happens to be my little form of
venting, and yes, some of the posters can vex your spirit,
if you let them, but I know who they are and what they stand for,
and for that reason, it doesn't really get to me.

I don't live by any other rule than simple truth,
...or that anyone would impose upon me by their belief system.
...that means if I feel like telling someone off...I will do it,
if it means that truth is served.

Too many simply don't know, and others only know parts,
that have been bent and twisted to suit their own philosophy,
and experience, regardless of what the word says...which
is my guiding light and inspiration...not Hobart or anyone else.

Nevertheless, I am thankful for the light that shined through
Hobart while he was here.....without that light, I too, would have been
stumbling around in darkness.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

01-26-2006, 10:51 PM

I will have to agree with you I Corinthians in that reading this stuff really vexes the spirit. I am one of the younger generation that to this day doesn't go to church for a variety of reasons. Partially for many of the same reasons Hombre doesn't but also partially because I'm not sure what to believe. I agree with much of what Hombre says, but I do have to say that I think it is very difficult for anyone to understand the legalism that occurred in FA. I do agree that Dr. Freeman "never legislated anything" from the standpoint of having rules written down and a particular creed but he and the other ministers were very adament about certain things. From TV, insurance to kids going to college, etc. It goes beyond the divine healing issue. I never considered my childhood to be destroyed, I was very naive once I graduated high school due to the sheltered life that FA kids often led. My parents beliefs were so strong about the lord returning before any of us kids were going to college that they had done absolutely no college planning at all. Needless to say all of us have student loans, I'm not complaining I'm just saying that many of the "opinions" that were taught were just that "opinions". I'm not going to change hombre's mind anymore than I would change "healed" or anyone else's here. I think different people experienced different things and those of us who experienced the deaths of family members "in the faith" aren't so adament about the beliefs. I lost a sibling and almost another under this teaching, while I don't disagree that it's biblical, I sometimes question the application of the message.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

01-26-2006, 10:53 PM

I will leave with one final thought in regards to this quote.

"We were divisive, because we
didn't agree with everyone elses' viewpoint, on everything from diving healing and faith for prosperity to the JDS heresy. "

The problem wasn't the divisiveness it was that too many people weren't prospering and too many people weren't getting healed. I think that is where a lot of people struggled, my parents struggled financially for years because they didn't work a lot because they were going to church 4 times a week, having bible studies and had 7 kids. I lost once sibling believing for his healing and almost lost another sister who was a diabetic, lost a grandmother to other ailments. I like other kids that attended there have broken bones that are crooked to this day. It's hard for some of us to believe a message today that many of us never saw any results of and only have painful memories of. It is easy for those who didn't experience the deaths, to sit back and say it's not about a formula...etc. The Bible is pretty clear that you only need the faith of a mustard seed to believe. That's not much faith. So all this talk about the strong word, etc etc., to me contradicts scripture. That scripture doesn't say only those with the strong word have the faith to believe. All in all no man is perfect and no church is perfect. Dr. Freeman wasn't perfect nor was Faith Assembly.

1_corinthians_13 (1_corinthians_13)

01-26-2006, 11:05 PM

To all of you,

I pray that our Lord will bless you and show you the way.

See ya in paradise.

signing off,

healed (healed)

02-02-2006, 04:35 AM

I was curious as to when FA actually disolved. I remeber Freeman dieing in like 1984 and I had to attend a "body" long after that. I have read several post on this forum and on another site, it seems that all the hardcore members have left and most renounced FA. When did this all take place? FA was an international movement, did it gradually disolve or suddenly? The FA that is around today, is it the same thing?

Also, did Freeman have a funeral? Where was he buried? What happened to his estate, the "garden of eden" as he put it?

Im guessing that several ministers tried to fill his shoes but couldnt and gradually the flock left.

cougarxr72 (cougarxr72)

02-05-2006, 06:33 PM

My understanding was that it took place gradually. My family left in 1986 or so at the time the church was is somewhat of a power struggle. Steve Hill was trying to take it over from what I recall and there was some opposition from some of the other ministers. Over the last 20 years it has just gradually gotten smaller and smaller. Different groups have left and started their own groups. There was a group that was held in Bourbon, IN for awhile, one in New Paris among other places around Northern Indiana. The actual building was holding meetings in the "new part" last I had heard but I believe they had less than 100 people in attendance. The actual "Faith Assembly/Faith Ministries" is now operated out of Warsaw and to my knowledge the guy running has nothing to do with the groups that were holding services at the old building. There are still sects of it throughout the world I'm sure, as I'm sure you've noticed there are people from all over on this board.