From a FA kid How are the other FA kids doing

[1faithassemblykid]

I accidentally posted this in another thread, but it belongs in a new one here.

How are most of the 'Faith Assembly kids' doing these days, I wonder? My guess is that most are either in jail or have a drug problem or both. Some quick background on me, then I will return to this subject.

My backtround story in a nutshell. My parents were recruited in '74, and I was born in '75 the oldest, making me 30 at this writing. My dad, GW occasionally 'led the worship' when JE was off and very occasionally preached. He also travelled weekly to New Whiteland to lead the worship for JB and occasionally preach.

When I was 12ish, we moved to in shortly after JB started Faith Christian Assembly in Acton, IN.

Luckily, my dad and JB had a fight about whether or not Paul Cain was a prophet, my dad got booted, and our family slowly normalized without the weekly reinforcement from the church. This happened around 1990-1ish.

Now, given the massive homeschooling and lack of any normal social interaction with peers for most of the FAKids, I'd imagine a huge % are 'not doing well.' I was one of the lucky ones, my parents decided to put me in public school after kindergarten. Still, not being allowed to have friends at school over, etc, was still a major social stumbling block for me and definitely stunted my social development.

I remember debating in 3rd grade whether or not to turn my parents into the authorities, because then someone else would get custody and I would be allowed to play on the basketball team at school.

Instead of a jock, from like 17 or so I was a total stoner, and pretty much was high for 5 straight years. The next 6 years or so, I drank lots of whiskey about 6.5 nights a week or so. The last 2 years, I've been maturing/calming down with that stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I don't regret any of the partying I did, but there is a HUGE correlation to it and my FA upbringing.

I think that I'm lucky that I came out of all that relatively unscathed legally and career-wise.

I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop, but am interested in any other FA kids stories.

I'd be interested to hear any other kids' stories.

[healed]

Yes the church did bring alot of pain and outcast feelings. Pretty selfish stuff if you ask me, but we move on. Others have done it, so can we.

[cougarxr72]

1faithassemblykid,

By any chance are your initials JW. Mine are BR. We used to goto school together as kids and hang out a lot playing Baseball and whatever. If you are who I think you are, I hope that you'll respond and maybe we can catch up on old times that we had outside of FA. I'm in agreement with you that FA caused a great deal of problems for the kids.

[cougarxr72]

I went through the drinking phase as well from about 18 on. I drank and partied every weekend until the age of 23 when I got married. FA would have scorned me. I married a divorced women with 2 kids. So I didn't drink in front of the kids. I had a similar childhood to yours. My parents joined/were recruited in about 1976. I got saved 2 years later, I sometimes wonder how legitimate it could have been. I have a 2 year old now and she's bright but I don't believe that she could grasp the concept of salvation. We also went to public school. Fortunatly all of us were healthy so we didn't have to deal with any significant health issues other than crooked teeth. In 1986 or so my parents decided to leave the church and at that time, we were prohibited from associating with the friends that we had at FA and weren't for a period of time allowed to have non christian friends either. In 91 I had a little brother that died on pneumonia. My parents still believed up until about 10 years ago when my little sister became very ill and could have died, I remember the day my dad called me at work and asked me to call a doctor friend of mine to set up an appointment to see her. Come to find out she had Juvenile Diabetes and her blood sugar was through the roof. After about a week in the hospital she was released and now is maintaining her blood sugar through insulin and a pump. After that point my parents really began to loosen up on their beliefs. I don't know if it was due to this or due to the damage that they realized had been done to their older kids. I think it was a combination of both. I haven't been to church on a regular basis in 15+ years. I realize that maybe I should, but I just don't want to go back to that environment. My grandfather GS used to preach as well. I wouldn't say I'm nostalgic about FA, I have some good memories of fellowship with friends and family from there, but most of them I haven't seen in years. Bottomline all of us kids had a lot to deal with and much of it we are still dealing with. It is something that is a daily struggle, I have channelled my energies into work. I could be bitter about the whole experience and maybe I should be, but I don't know that bitterness solves anything. Keep your head up.

[1faithassemblykid]

Yo cougar,

It took me a minute, but I remember you. Yep, I'm Josh Wilson.

Email me at jodwilso@yahoo.com

Or, my myspace is www.myspace.com/joshdwilson (http://www.myspace.com/joshdwilson)

You may see some old faces on my 'friends' section of myspace.

[the_soulsurfer]

Hey Josh...
This is Rob Woodrum...hopefully you remember me...I was friends with your parents.
You surely would remember my kids...though they were younger than you (I can't believe you're 30...aaaaagh)...my oldest (Jessica http://www.myspace.com/wakinguptodie (http://www.myspace.com/wakinguptodie%20%20))is closer to Lindsey's age.

We're still in Fla...still surfing...still forging a new way to do church (http://www.eastgatefellowship.net)

It's good to hear things are smoothing out for you...on behalf of all adults who were stupid enough to inflict all that crap on you kids...I'm so, so sorry.

Anyway...contact me if you get a chance...
http://www.robwoodrum.com
http://www.myspace.com/realsoulsurfing

[healed]

nothing new

[healed]

I just wanted to post that I have been reading post over at the tomax site and it seems there are a lot of lost people still looking or clinging to all things FA. I think these people overlook what happened to so many lives, especially younger people because of this crap. Its baffling to me how people can still be searching for that new Hobart Freeman that might be out there to lead them to the lost waters. One dumbazz says the faith message is missing from todays message. Well I wonder why...after all the people died from beliving that at FA, most of us woke up and realized it was wrong.

[barn_kid]

Does it make you feel better to blame your bad choices on church? I was a Glory Barn kid - started attending with my parents at age 3 and continued through the years until I was 18 and left home - and sure, I did some partying after I left home - but I am wear big girl panties and can OWN my screwups. I'm certainly not going to blame my bad behavior on a church that I attended 20 years ago.

As for my life - yes, I was a wild thing in the late 80's and early 90's - but alot of perfectly "normal" kids do that between 18 and 25.

I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up.

:shrug:

[barn_kid]

Does it make you feel better to blame your bad choices on church? I was a Glory Barn kid - started attending with my parents at age 3 and continued through the years until I was 18 and left home - and sure, I did some partying after I left home - but I am wear big girl panties and can OWN my screwups. I'm certainly not going to blame my bad behavior on a church that I attended 20 years ago.

As for my life - yes, I was a wild thing in the late 80's and early 90's - but alot of perfectly "normal" kids do that between 18 and 25.

I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up.

:shrug:

Kristi Anderson (Ormsby)

[mark1124]

Hey Barn Kid,

It is nice to see some refreshing words in here besides the bitter ones the are written by Healed. The only thing I wish I could have done was be a part of FA and not have to listen to the stories of those that were there or to get the teaching from off the tapes. I would have loved to been a part of the worship there. I have a few of the worship tapes and I know that I would have loved to be a part of it.

As for a FA reunion...sounds like a good idea. But I wonder how many would be interested? Count Healed out.

God bless. I am glad to hear you are doing well.

Mark Scaliotti

[healed]

"I'm 38 now and only wish I attended a church that my daughter could enjoy as much as I did Faith Assembly growing up.

:shrug:"

If your daughter got sick and died, would you enjoy that too or would you shrug? I guess you were one of the folks that shrugged when some of the "belivers" died or suffered needlessly due to their lack of faith. Actually, what is sad to the point of tears, is that they had plenty of faith, faith in a promise made by Hobart Freeman. They belived and some are still beliving in that false hope to their death.

Yes Mark, please do count me out of the Neo Faith Assembly reunions, those are very terrible memories indeed.

[mark1124]

Correction Healed. Hobart Freeman did not make the promise of healing. God promised it in His word. Read it in the Bible and quit blaming Hobart because Hobart preached the Word. So either God is a liar and His word is not true or it is. What does the scripture say concerning God's will to heal? Wasn't it provided in the atonement? Yes it was. You just do not understand the teaching. That's ok I understand. Because the Bible says that the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

As far as the reunion...you would be unconfortable there because all you would be sharing with the others there are your sour grapes, if you know what I mean.

And by the way, there is more than a lack of faith that causes a believer not to receive from God. How about sin in a believer's life or failing to meet the conditions in the promise. There are other reasons why people did not get their healings but it was not Hobart's teaching. It was either because the problem was with the believer or the word is not true and God is a liar. Guess which one I will chose? So stop blaming Hobart for all your misery. I have had enough of it. Get on with life. Let God heal you of the pains, anger and the bad memories of your life and get on with life as best you can. You will never forgive Hobart because you do not have the love of God in you. That's the first step. And I know you hate me because I still am "nostaligic to all things FA". LOL. That proves further that you do not have the love of God in you. I know the memories are hard to get rid of. Everyone does every now and then. But life goes on. I have had bad memories, especially in the way my family ill treated me over a year ago. But I have the love of God in my heart for them, even though they hurt me dearly. Love does not consider a wrong suffered.
Think about it healed...and perhaps God will give you understanding.

[healed]

}<font color="ff0000">Correction Healed. Hobart Freeman did not make the promise of healing. God promised it in His word. Read it in the Bible and quit blaming Hobart because Hobart preached the Word. So either God is a liar and His word is not true or it is
</font><font color="000000">Correction Mark. Perhaps Hobart didnt promise anyone healing, but he did offer a false hope. The bottom line is that Hobart, and a handfew of other cult leaders like him, preached that to trust in the arm of the flesh was to doubt Gods word. This created internal guilt for members who felt they had to follow the "Word" that Hobart preached or be in sin. Its interesting how die harders like you and even the more liberal Neo Freemanites twist things around to fit your beliefs. It would seem that you dont understand the bible unless its spoon fed to you by Freeman.

We continue;

</font><font color="ff0000">There are other reasons why people did not get their healings but it was not Hobart's teaching. It was either because the problem was with the believer or the word is not true and God is a liar.
</font><font color="000000"> Spoken like a true die harder. Scary stuff there Mark and very cold. So, according to you, Brother Freeman must of had a problem, for wasnt he the truest of the true belivers? You know the word had to be true because the "word" was coming from him! Which one do you choose now? So all those folks who died and those who are suffering to this day who follow Freemans teachings had or have a problem with their faith? Do you know how that sounds? Its sounds rather self righteous there brother Mark! Oh, but I think thats what got FA off on the wrong track to begin with.

</font><font color="ff0000"> So stop blaming Hobart for all your misery. I have had enough of it. Get on with life. Let God heal you of the pains
</font><font color="000000">My name here is Healed for a reason. Because I am Healed, I know have the liberty, the confidonce and the responsibility of pointing out the lunancy of Freemans teachings. As I get on with my life, I uncover and discover more things about this movement, even though I know people close to me who still suffer in it. So God is healing me brother Mark, thank you for your concern. The first step, as you said, has already been completed brother Mark. The first step was to rid myself and all the FA baggage. Now as I grow older, I have moved on to the other steps of closure and release. </font>

[healed]

For Brother Mark;
Something else I would like to add; I always noticed at the meetings I had to attend that in the back of the room, there were always books or pamphlets by Freeman, but nobody else. Why? Was it because he was the only one that preached the "Word"? Ive been going back and reading some of his works like the Faith by Healing book that was the foundation for so much of the nonsense that came out of FA. As I read the book, I can feel its being crafted by Freeman in order to support his ridiculous beliefs. Sure he quotes scriptures, but he then goes and crafts his own interpretation of the passage, like he is the authority or something. Am I supposed to let go of my own instinctual suspicions and just grasp on to every word just because Freeman typed it? I think not. That must be the difference between you and me. Just because Freeman said it doesnt mean its truth, and it doesnt mean its Gods word. Why cant you understand that?

[mark1124]

I won't bothering wasting my time with you any further. I was trying to soften my tone with you but your heart is very hard. I refuse to read anything from you unless you are willing to talk to me like a human. I know what I am talking about when I wrote to you before. But you will not listen...even if Jesus talked to you personally.

I would rather argue with fivefoldheretic than with you. At least the conversations were interesting.

I will continue to receive the promises of God and be blessed by the teachings of the word. You can do whatever you want to do. Until you get rid of the hatred and bitterness towards Freeman, me and other "die harders", you will never really be healed.

Oh well...I tried to reason with you. I see that you are a hard nut to crack. But you know...all nuts will crack. It just depends on how much pressure you put on them.

BTW...Don't bother writing anymore to me. Don't waste the bandwidth. I refuse to read anymore garbage and waste my time with someone like you

Mark

[healed]

Well of course your not going to write "Yes, Healed! I agree with you!" or "Healed, you got me stumped here!" Instead you write it in code...like I wont bother wasting my time with you or blah blah. Its ok, I understand. I have to be direct with your kind or else youll start with the I need to get Jesus in my heart or God will give me understanding only if I open my eyes..to your way of thinking of course. And I must add, I just find it selfish Mark, this remark you made: BTW...Don't bother writing anymore to me. "Don't waste the bandwidth. I refuse to read anymore garbage and waste my time with someone like you" What do you think me and others have been doing all these years...wasting our time trying to get thru to you? But when we lay it down for you...oh no, no compromise coming from your side. Thats not the way the world works brother Mark. It cant be all your way.

[odysseus]

Healed,

I believe you truly are... healed

God bless you

[healed]

Thank you and God bless you too

[barn_kid]

Let's be clear about something - I do not live the "Faith Assembly" way. I take my daughter to the doctor and go myself when I need to. That being said, I've been incredibly disappointed with the churches I've attended in the years since Faith Assembly and to be frank, most of the time I feel like going is a complete waste of time and wonder "Why do I bother getting showered and dressed to go to this service?"

That really was not the point of my post though. My complaint is with people who <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> and moan and WHINE for decades and blame all the bad things they've done SINCE LEAVING Faith Assembly on Faith Assembly.

It's everyone's perogative to decide that the doctrine of FA was "misguided" or off base if they want to......and their perogative to go forward and live their lives in the present as they see fit........MY COMPLAINT is with the endless number of ex- Faith Assembly people who blame all their mistakes on the church.

Grow up already. For the most part, it was grown adults who went there and if you think it was wrong now, then GET OVER IT. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you go sit and listen. Dr. Freeman never came to anyone's house and checked in to see whether you took tylenol.

If you were a kid that grew up there - like I did then you also don't have any excuse (although I think we have MORE of an excuse than the adults since we were kids at the time) because at this point, no matter how many years you were there - you've spent MORE years in the "outside world" than you could have in the church.

I started going there when I was 4. I left at 18. NOW it's been 20 years and so is it fair to act like some big freaking baby and whine about how Faith Assembly ruined my life (it did not).

It's like the people who blame their childhood for all their problems. You don't have control over your childhood - but you have control with what you do with your life after you leave home. You can continue to live a screwed up life and keep blaming other people for your choices, or you can wake up and say, HEY, I can blame someone for the first 18 years of my life, sure, maybe your parents were nuts. However, you can't keep that up forever. Your parents weren't tipping back the bottle of Jack Daniels into your gullet. That was you.

It's time to OWN your life and make changes to it if you're unhappy with where you're at now.

Faith Assembly has been dead for 20 years. Have to come up with a new excuse. Hey, blame your wife - your boss - your constipation.

again :shrug:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[healed]

barn_kid,
I dont know who your post is directed at, but due to the tone of it, Ill assume its towards me. Id like to point out a few things you wrote:

"MY COMPLAINT is with the endless number of ex- Faith Assembly people who blame all their mistakes on the church".

I, for one, am not blaming any of the "mistakes" I have made since I left my childhood home, on FA. I do blame some of the handicaps I came into adult life on FA or Freemans teachings, as well as the many hurdles I had to overcome. The achievments, however, I have made are perhaps due to my upbringing, that is I had to challenge myself more in order to survive. Alot of this was completely unnessecary, but it was something I had to go through to "come up to speed" in order to cope with the world.

"Grow up already. For the most part, it was grown adults who went there and if you think it was wrong now, then GET OVER IT. Nobody held a gun to your head and made you go sit and listen. Dr. Freeman never came to anyone's house and checked in to see whether you took tylenol".

Well I wasnt an adult, but yes, I was forced to attend, and forced to adhere to Freemans teachings, every last one of them. Your right, Freeman didnt come check my house to see if we had any Asprin. He didnt have to, we were all brainwashed into thinking if we took the asprin then our salvation was in jeoporady and if I as a kid could stomach the guilt of taking the asprin, but was latter caught by an adult, I would suffer from "spare not the rod" doctrine of FA and be beat senseless for taking that asprin.

"Faith Assembly has been dead for 20 years. Have to come up with a new excuse. Hey, blame your wife - your boss - your constipation".

Faith Assembly is dead? Then why do I still have a relative in it to this day that is hanging on to every last word that Freeman taught? The grip is unbreakable. Just because some of the elite of FA moved on, there were others that created groups that preach the same message.

Perhaps you had a happy go lucky childhood experience with FA, and shrugged when folks were dying and suffering needlessly. I still know people in it, and it aint nothing to shrug about.

[odysseus]

I’m another that does not need an excuse to blame anything on Freeman or FA. My life worked out very well in spite of FA. I’ll even say that I’m quite successful. But I still get a kick out of reading all these Freeman apologists longing for the ‘good old days’.

You know it’s funny. Not too many of you have any pity towards people like Healed. Then again he doesn’t need it to survive anyway, nor do I.

[barn_kid]

Healed,
You apparently were too upset to read the last half of my comments in my last post. It addresses the kids who grew up at F.A. - I can speak to this since I spent my life at that church.........sat through ever lonnnnnnnnnnnnng message of Jerry Ervin thinking I was going to starve to death before he'd ever stop talking, sat and enjoyed Bruce Kinsey and will never forget the message Dr. Freeman taught on oral sex........OH my. You know how we took notes in his sermons.......and I remember not knowing what to do.....if I took notes too studiously, people would think I was a freak and yet if you weren't taking notes, you were probably listening too intently - and that was embarrassing.

I remember all the stress and strain and humiliation of being a Glory Barner, then known as one of the freaks who went to the TENT to church downtown in Warsaw........then as "one of those people" who went to Faith Assembly. I was one of those kids who couldnt' be in sports, couldn't be even in a spelling bee. Had to go out of holiday parties and had an art teacher who gave me SUCH CRAP for not making witches and Santa Claus........I think I might look that old bat up.......

Still, you know, I think it was good for me. Yes, it sure sucked - but there was good that I learned and while I have issues that will probably haunt me forever to some extent, I honestly think it made me alot stronger than my husband.

My husband grew up popular. I mean "captain of the football team" and "chant his name in the hallways" popular. On top of that, he was smart.

Ok, so a football player who is so smart he never has to study.

He goes on to law school and gets a kickbutt job and seems intimidating to people........

but inside, well, the man actually really cares what people think - and can be devastated by crap that rolls off my back like nothing.

Hey, we went through HELL with those FA days - and I know I can stand up to anything.

That's worth alot.

[healed]

I dont hold anything personally against people who attended FA, especially the kids. For many, it was just a fleeting moment in their life, for others, it was more damaging. There seemed to be two types of individuals who attended FA. Those who were drawn to this new message that Freeman and others were teaching, and those who were drawn to a message that provided a false hope. Those who were drawn to the new kind of teaching didnt seem to have as much difficulty transitioning to other churches, even if they taught an entirely different message from what Freeman taught. I think it was because they thought of themselves as elite, perhaps were part of that inner circle of ministers, all approved by Freeman. They probally never really obeyed everything that came out of Freemans mouth anyway. Ive never heard or seen of any minister from FA apologize for anything they had taught in the pulpit. The other individuals who so desparately hung on to every word of the Faith Message, were the ones who suffered the most. What were they supposed to do after the leadership at FA left them in a void? They had relationships that seemed irrepairable, grave illnesses and other very challenging issues to deal with. The message that Freeman taught provided hope for those issues. Thats why its so hard for these people, like my relative, to let go, even to this day. The "word" that Freeman taught was the only truth. I think that barn_kid and some of the others here are from the first group, that is the folks who made a clean break from it. Barn_kid states that "hey, we went through HELL with those FA days.." Well yeah it was difficult, but actually the hell I went through in my early adult years was worse because I was sheltered from the ways of the world and when I left home, I was lost and unprepared. You say you went through hell, but in your other post you seem nostalgic about your FA upbringing, speaking about canning and all the fellowship you had. Im not here to disrespect or disqualify that, I just think there are two different sides here, and your not seeing the other one, your only seeing it from your view.

[hombre]

Thanks for a post with logical thinking, 'healed'.
I think that's a first, isn't it?

<font size="-2">Ive never heard or seen of any minister from FA apologize for anything they had taught in the pulpit. </font>

Could it be that it is because they simply taught what is in the Bible?....I know that I've said this at least a dozen times, but, that is what you have a problem with, ......you need a human scapegoat to blame it on, since you can neither armwrestle God about it, nor do you have the courage to question Him about it.

A+ for a very nice rational and humanistic philosophy,
F- for Biblical theology and spirituality.

[odysseus]

Hombre said;
“Could it be that it is because they simply taught what is in the Bible?”....

Answer;
No! If you believe what was taught by Freeman was in the Bible then why aren’t you following it Hombre?

You said;
“you need a human scapegoat to blame it on, since you can neither armwrestle God about it, nor do you have the courage to question Him about it.”

Healed doesn’t need a scapegoat. After reading his posts I’m under the distinct impression that he’s the most mentally balanced of anyone on this board. However your miserable life seems to require a leader or guru to guide you. Therefore you have to gravitate to believe that Freeman was it.
Hey look over there, I think I saw Elvis.

I think I’ll give you an A+ for being an <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>.

[healed]

Amen Odysseus. You know my statement about I had never heard of any minister from FA apologizing for what they had taught at FA was directed towards the coldness I have felt from neo Freemanites and the die harders. I think Homebread missed that somewhere in there, or maybe he/she is in full agreement with them not having to have any human feelings for others when they die. I think if those deaths and misery would of happened on my watch, Id of backed down, no matter how good my intentions were. Im not trying to make anyone feel guilty, Im sure many out there are still dealing with it all. Theres nothing to feel guilty about really, Freeman is the one who God judged anyway by taking him from this world. Its just that you never see anyone come here and apologize. Homebread and Mark probally will tell us that those who died or suffered had it coming because of their doubt in Gods word.

[hombre]

A few Biblical references:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
~ James 5: 14-16

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
~ Mark 16: 17-18

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
~ John 14:12-14.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
~ Isaiah 53: 3-5

Not MY words NOR Hobart Freemans.

You lose.

I win.

Like I said, you have trouble with Gods' Word, not me and/or Hobart. You can make all the logical arguments you want, but that is not going to change what is written in the worlds' most
popular and reproduced book. It is like trying to convince the readers that Sam Clemens never wrote The Adventures of Tom Sawyer.

[odysseus]

Hombre,

You said; “You lose.I win.”

Really now, I lose? You really amuse me.

[hombre]

Stick to the subject, moron.
Quit trying to evade the issue.

[healed]

The bible also said Luke was a physician. The bible has been rewritten many times over and requires a dose of common sense when interpreting it. Im sure the prophets, disciples, scribes etc. expected their readers to have that common sense. Yes, there is a passage about picking up serpents, but if I were to go out and pick up a king cobra, I will die, so how do you explain that? If I were to be bitten by the king cobra and given anitvenom in time, I could possibly survive, otherwise death would appear in minutes, so is it doubt to receive the antivenom? This is the kind of logic that got several dead at FA. I see where you quote both the old and new testament. In the old testament, we saw where God allowed for an eye for an eye, but in the new, it was turn the other cheek (something you dont seem to be very good at, I see where you called odysseus a moron). The words in the bible are not ridgid or set in stone, it is very open to interpretation and there are several books missing. People like you get all caught up in the teachings and the deeper message but you go off the deep end with it and cant reason. So no, your wrong again, Hombread, we arent having trouble with Gods word, its Freemans and other wackos interpretation of it. There are many white supremicist who can quote scripture that blacks and other races, including Jews, are the offspring of the devil or some wack crap, but does that mean its true? Your no different than them, your just a different flavor.

(Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006)

[odysseus]

Take it easy on Hombre, he's 'overcoming'.

[hombre]

1. Luke was a physician....that is, until he became a disciple.
From thence, he magnifies Jesus as THE Healer. We don't see Jesus
reaching into Lukes' bag of potions to heal, now do we? Neither do we see
Luke doing it either, or speaking of it, other than to tell us what his occupation
was prior to following Jesus.

2. The Bible has NOT been re-written many times over. You are wrong about that.
Perhaps you should research it, it has been RE-PRODUCED more than any other book in the entirety of recorded history, with fewer typos than any other manuscript.
Part of this was due to the demands placed upon the jewish scribes for accuracy in recording by their own, and partly because we have things like 'the dead sea scrolls' which verify what we have now 1 for 1. The closest runner-up to authenticity with respect to being the closest to the original manuscript, is Homers' Illiad, which is a far distant second. You need to do some real research before you shoot your mouth off.

3. The Bible is NOT open to interpretation.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
~ 2 Peter 1:20-21

Next, you'll be telling me that there are many ways to God; but before you do,
I'll end that now by this:

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
~ John 14: 5-6

4. Taking up serpents is not something one does to 'prove' something.
That is why morons die from doing it. As Jesus said to Satan,
upon His temptation to prove He was God, Jesus replied: 'Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.'

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
~ Matt.4:5-7

However, we also see that when it became imperative for God to provide a miracle,
when the leaders tried to shove Jesus off a cliff, Jesus simply walked through their midst, and yet they missed Him somehow.

And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way...
~ Luke 4: 28-30

The same rule applies to handling serpents.
Paul provides the direct example.

And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
~ Acts 28: 3-6

..of course, other conditions apply...things like FAITH and OBEDIENCE,
......which disqualifies both of you.

[hombre]

5.How can you:
A.) look directly at Gods' Word,
B.) and deny what it says
C.) when Jesus says it is so simple, that even a child can grasp it?

And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
~ Mark 10:13-15

I must then conclude that you either don't want to understand, or that you
do not have the intelligence of a child. Someone who would fall under that category might be termed a 'moron', or an 'idiot', or just 'mentally incompetent'.
Since I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I also then must conclude that
you and Odysseus fall into the later category. You take your own pick of what you would like to be called.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
~ John 14: 12-17

He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

(Message edited by Hombre on November 17, 2006)

[odysseus]

I guess I’m not ‘intelligent’ like you. You have an interesting style of ‘overcoming’?

[odysseus]

Since you’ve described me as a ‘Moron’, I guess my opinion to your nonsense doesn’t matter does it? Naw, guess not.

It’s sad to see that your brand of ‘Overcomers Christianity’ has to resort to such hateful tirades in order to further your cause, or better said your ‘delusion’.

I guess, “By their fruits, you shall know them” applies here doesn’t it Hombre? ….Hello, anyone home? (You know I have a Freudian opinion on why you call yourself Hombre but I’ll pass on it for now)

I suppose I could use this time to get some ‘digs’ in against you, but that wouldn’t be right would it?

You can call me a moron or childish or stupid and justify it with any scripture you wish. The important thing is you did us all a favor and demonstrated what was really in your soul. You know what? We really aren’t astonished. Overcomer? Get real, you cant even control your temper.

Thanks for proving a point. You probably set some people free reading your screeds.

Cheers,

Odysseus

(Message edited by odysseus on November 17, 2006)

[healed]

This is good, getting all this documented here for others to see, now they can see how frustrating it is for us who have been trying to reach these people. After you finally get the FA die harders and Neo Freemanites cornered, they get to the point and you can see the luancy of their thinking. I noticed that you quoted doctrine and scripture, but when I asked you about the King Cobra, you were unable to respond. I saw and heard many testimonies from people during testimony time about how they had been bitten by snakes and spiders. What was always interesting though, is that none of them shook the serpent off and walked away, they always had some sort of "trial" to endure because of it, some near death. I tell you what Homebread, you go and pick up a king cobra, and let him inject his venom into your blood and you shake off the serpent and walk away and I witness it. You then go and walk away with no symptoms. Ill sell everything I own and follow whatever it is your beliving. You see Homy, your not talking to some naive person here, I already been down the road your preaching, and I never saw one miracle, but I did see lots of deaths, suffering and hardship. I still see it. So actually your defeating your own purpose when you preach this confused mess. Your kind baits people with some message of hope, they belive it because their desparate, go to hell and back trying to make it work, then come out of it wondering just what to belive. You do more harm than good, thats why there is support groups for cults, folks come out confused and a mess. Your proud to be a part of that? You feel some kind of superiority when you quote your doctrines and scripture to us when that same message was responsible for deaths and destruction of lives? You mentioned Jesus and his message was so simple that even a child could grasp it. But not once in the gospels do I remeber reading about anyone dying on Jesus watch. Not one child, but I do remeber several on Freemans watch. What was wrong Homy, did those children, even newborns have no faith? Jesus healed people who werent even belivers. Your right, homy, Jesus message was simple, but leave it to people like you to go and pervert it.

(Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006)

[healed]

Id like to add onem more thing. Ive witnessed this time and time again with people like homy. They get so educated and wrapped up in their studies that they start to think they are Jesus in the temples throwing out the Pharasis and Jews. There is no compromise coming from their side. I know that they are only following in the footsteps of Freeman since this is how he was, but you would think after all these years they would wake up and think for themselves. You said the bible is NOT open to interpretation. It isnt? Then why are there so many views, denominations, beliefs, sects, Catholic vs. Protestant, etc.? Oh I get it, how could I be so dumb homy? Freemans interpretation is the true message, and since thats the one you belive, Id best get with the program.

(Message edited by healed on November 17, 2006)

[barn_kid]

}<font color="119911">

Dear Healed,

It is accurate to state that I was nostalgic about my time at FA, because I do have those feelings. It was a sense of "community" that I have not really felt since leaving. Perhaps it was merely a matter of people bonding due to adversity - and to some extent, as things progressively became more difficult for Glory Barners and then at the Tent and finally at FA we did bond as a group..........and that indeed WAS hell to feel like a freak.......</font>

however, the community feeling itself -- the friendships, the fact that you saw these people 4 times a week and spent so many hours together canning together as families, eating together, kids playing together, and having lifestyles that were so similar to each other - and yet so different in some ways to the world around us......well, that comraderie was awesome.

It's late, but do you understand what I'm saying? The friendships formed were great - and I loved the learning that we did - and the song services with Jerry Ervin up there - hey, it was awesome to hear the hundreds of us all singing songs we really loved. Watching Carl Seitz get up and sing with Carolyn and Jim Brenneman getting up to teach a song and the "He's Alive" songs that Ron Mudd used to sing. It was beautiful stuff and I loved it there.

Dealing with the outside world was hell.....all the mocking and the way I was treated while I wasn't at church - that was hell. I was stabbed with pencils, called a Glory Barner, baby killer, etc. That was rough..........but I'm not going to let something a bit traumatic that happened for a good portion of the first 20 years of my life go on to mess up the NEXT 20 years of my life. It's been 20 years now.

Sure, you say you were unprepared for the world when you left home. Hey, Healed, I was too. I left home at 18 and didn't have a driver's license because my eyes were too bad. I was literally legally blind - albeit correctible......and I couldn't see at all. If you leave home, it's pretty important to have a drivers license - but I also left home without a car and with only 4 of my 5 senses so to speak.
I had alot of catching up to do.......and now, 20 years later, I could cling pain of those hard times and blame some of the poor decisions I made after leaving home with regard to men or whatever else............OR I could realize what kind of a person I am now because of that experience........

[healed]

Yeah I understand you, and Im not judging you. Actually having that bonding was good. For me, however, it seemed that bonding was forced. Also, I was somewhat talented and always wanted to excel, but this was taken from me, it was suppressed. Actually, those who had many friendships and bonds within FA probally did well. Im not here to judge those people, its the message that brought much destruction to my family life, but it was supposed to bring hope. I had to, and still do, discern what is right about Christanity and what is wrong, and Im sometimes left with no answers. But I am stronger than ever before, and the thing that can annoy you most is someone trying to "help" you when they in fact are lost themselves. I now belive the bible was not written to be taken word for word and hunker down and live in a fantasy land where firey darts and trials are to be overcomed just by having faith. The FA experience was different for each person, so its understandable that some have fond memories of it. Im not here to disrespect that, even it seems that way, Im here to point out the error in the message and beliefs of those who still preach it.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I now belive the bible was not written to be taken word for word and hunker down and live in a fantasy land where firey darts and trials are to be overcomed just by having faith. ..... Im here to point out the error in the message and beliefs of those who still preach it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...what you mean by that, is that you are against what the Bible says, right?

<font color="ff0000">Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
~ Ephesians 6: 16 </font>

By the way, you spelled 'believe' and 'fiery' wrong.
..... just thought you might like to know.

[barn_kid]

Well, Healed, I still think that the Bible is to be taken literally.......every word of it. There are some things that I can't seem to live up to and some things that I don't even try to do.......but the fact is that it still says and means what it says, whether I live it or not. Admittedly, I don't.....but I'm not going to try to rationalize what it says just because I am not willing to go along with it. You know what I mean?

I am sorry that I - and others - have come down on you at times. Your posts are kind of all over the place in your reactions......sometimes I get the feeling you're really sweet - and sometimes you come across as attacking. I "get" that though - I think it's normal to have mixed feelings about experiences like FA. Still, I think it's really important for all of us to be able to move forward in our lives and in our "walk" with God and not obsess about the past - not look on everything that went on like it was all cherries and not point to it and act like it was something we can point to as the blame for our whole life's failings.

It was the best of times......it was the worst of times............and yet it was 20 years ago.........and we are more than the sum total of our experiences at Faith Assembly. We go on and if we are wise, we take the good and leave behind the bad and push forward in our lives.

When I was about 30 I went to visit my aunt who was married (unhappily) and used to point back to her past and lament her life. She complained about how she moved alot as a child, how her family didn't have any money and how she wished she could have been more popular.

I sat there and watched her in her pain and how she went on and on about the early days of her life and was amazed to sit and watch a woman who was past 40 years old whining about how she hadn't been popular in grade school and high school. I saw how she tormented herself by not letting go of something so ridiculous. Sure, it sucks to not be important in high school. But how many of the jocks turn out to be divorced and working at a crappy job and driving a broken down beater truck? I think life has a way of evening things out - and I resolved at that moment as I sat on the couch next to her that I was not going to waste the next 13 years of my life (to when I'd be at her age) complaining about the crap I'd been through. It just wasn't that important and I wasn't going to let it beat me up like it STILL was her. She looked ridiculous to me......and I didn't want to be her.

She still is in that funk............and yet I'm terribly grateful for that day......because she really changed my life......

Faith Assembly was quite an experience.......but I'm over it. I remember the bad and relish the good that I am able to look back on and see.

Hugs to you Healed.

- a barn kid http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[healed]

Well thanks for your kind reply, but I think the reason you are unable to feel out my postings is because you dont understand where I and others like me are coming from. I dont spill all the details here because, wolves come in sheeps clothing, even "Christians" always there to tear your beliefs or thoughts apart, leaving you feeling battled. Dont get me wrong, I enjoy fighting them at times, at others it gets old. Like I said before there was a crowd who belonged to a close knit group then there were others who attended sattelite churches. I am completely over my FA experience, actually I "rebelled" as a teen and left it. I still have relatives in it and its extremely frustrating trying to deal with it. Its hard to get any kind of closure when your still battling with those in it who you know will die with their beliefs.

As for Hombre, thanks for the spell check. Really I dont sweat spell checks anymore because there is always somebody like you there to do it for me.
Thanks again Hombre, you are good for something.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

....I am completely over my FA experience....Its hard to get any kind of closure when your still battling with those in it<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Huh.
I would guess that its' kinda hard to be over something when you're not.

[healed]

Reread and try to comprehend brother in Christ Hombre,
I said I still have relatives in it, thats why I have to battle with it. Now, Im sure you would love nothing more than to reel me in and bait me with "see I told you needed saved! now lets get into the word and let me show you where it says this or that" then you proceed to twist it and then I start to belive that I can see without my glasses etc. or this tooth with a cavity will heal up and there is no need to get attention for it. No thanks brother hombre, been there done that, smelled the stench of the teeth rotting before. I guess you could say my faith was shakened brother Hombre, shook up by the teachings of Freeman. You dont seem content that Im content so you continue to look for cracks to try and infiltrate, like your own a crusade. I like your little saying you have over at overcomers online, 'Perverting the doctrines of the local assembly through the Word of God, one moment, one thought, one person at a time'Seems perverting the gospel is what got Hobart kicked out of the seminary and then he continued to do it and it got folks killed. Perhaps you should back off on your little crusade and reexamine as to why you feel you need to correct everyone. You need to get your own house in order brother hombre before you go trying to clean up somebody elses.

[hombre]

...I see that you're still curious enough about the Word of God, to continue reading my postings wherever you can find them.
...I guess your 'armour' isn't quite as impermeable as you would like others to think that it is.

[healed]

Actually it seems to be the other way around. Every time I post, you love to read it and then post your crap. I never addressed you in any of my replies unless you address me first. Yes, I do read time to time what is posted over at overcomeers online or the Tomax site. There hasnt been any post on this site for some time. If you feel threatned by my words or feel I have thick armour, well thats your problem.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

and then post your crap.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That's not a very nice thing to say, Healed.

I thought that I was quoting the Bible.

Here's another one that you probably won't like:

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
~ Matt. 12:35-37

Those of us who have read your posting, know that you do not consider yourself to be a 'Christian'.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

No I do not consider myself a christian, perhaps someday I will get back to that. ~ Healed, Post # 12, from 'F.A. The Younger Generation'<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

and again:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Well I hate to disappoint any of you, but as I stated before, Im do not call myself a christian, I do belive there is a God, but I dont go to church. ~ Healed, Post # 16, from 'F.A. The Younger Generation'<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

and again:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Since I was exposed to the more extreme side of Christianity, the fringes, I tend to stay away from it. I dont consider myself an atheist, I dont know its something Ill work out latter. ~ Healed, Post # 48, from 'Why was Hobart Freeman / F.A. so special?'<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

So then, you have made it clear to all, including God, what it is that you believe and don't believe.

May I quote another few Bible verses?

The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
~ Luke 12: 16-21

Now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
~ 2 Cor. 6:2

I don't know how long you, I, or anyone else has left on this earth, but I do know this: it is neither ours to decide. I would highly recommend receiving Jesus as The Christ, into your heart. If Faith Assembly and Hobart are stumbling blocks to you, then simply read the Bible for yourself, and give your heart over to Jesus...not because of what I'm saying, not because of what F.A and others have represented to you in your life, or what anyone who have called themselves 'Christians' have offended you about. Just do it for yourself.

[healed]

Well thanks for the advice Hombre but do not worry yourself, I am able to discern and decide what the bible means for me. Perhaps the bottom line is that teachings and messages and other man made doctrines and ridiculous legalistic nonsense got in the way of the clear thinking that is required when reading the bible. For awhile I couldnt read it or listen to anyone talking about it without confusion or frustration. You see, when the young adults such as yourself read the bible and listened to the tapes, you found a message that brought you joy and hope. When your forced, as a kid, to interpret, discern all the rules and that wacko Freeman taught, the joy of discovery it for yourself somehow gets distorted, probally because your not really old enough to grasp it. Then when all you see is misery around you, that is directly or indirectly to be contributed to those beliefs, well it only creates more distance and doubt about a message that is supposed to be about hope. So, yes, I go back and read the scripture from time to time. I dont dwell on it, but do understand it. If you dwell on it, then this behavior can lead down the bewildering road that so many ended up at from FA. It has taken time, and distance with experiences to actually heal.

[mark1124]

You know...I just started listening to the tapes of Brother Freeman. It has been a while since I listened to them. But boy, what a breath of fresh air from the dribble and sour grapes of "Brother" Unhealed's commentary. It is good to get back into the word of God that brings freedom. And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded.

[hombre]

Hey bro!...Where U bin?

[healed]

"And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded".

But of course, the one and only, Hobart Freeman all others should be avoided like the plague because they arent anointed by God. Well Im not here to stop you from letting your health deteriorate or from buying a house on credit or getting glasses or dental work or letting your relatives die. You do what you gotta do brother Mark. Ill just stay deceived and deluded while you get enlightened and annointed by the word according to Freeman.

[mark1124]

What did Hobart preach that was not anointed? He preached the word and the anointing is on the word. If you do not believe that the anointing is on the word of God, then yes, you are deceived. I enjoy my freedom that I have in Christ. Why? Because Freeman taught it? No. Because Jesus set me free. I think I discovered your problem. Your problem is like other people who hate Freeman...you can't live the Word that Freeman taught. You can't live by the standards that Jesus said. And that's what Freeman taught.
You, as well as the other people who left FA could not live the message because it was too strong for babies to handle.

[duncan]

Mark,
Based upon all my previous posts, you know how I believe. However, I thought I would answer your question before Healed starts in. Also, the last thing I want to do is give him ammunition, but I have to tell it like it is.

You had asked what Freeman preached that was not anointed. The first thing that popped into my mind was that he told people that their children should not be sent to college. I believe that his statement was totally from his own mind and had no anointing whatsoever. It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things. However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same.

Fortunately, my parents didn't follow that advice with me, and I was able to learn something that could support my family. Unfortunately, my brother wasn't so lucky. He went to a two-year trade school to learn about computers. Now he is in his late forties and is having a hard time finding a job, because everyone at that age has a college degree.

Just my thoughts.

Duncan

[active_angel]

Mark, I'm sry I'm new here so forgive me...
Are you still affiliated with FA?
I don't entirely agree with your last comment. We've been out of FA for awhile now and I'm relieved to find that when my time comes to meet my "maker" that I will not be burning in hell for wearing a pair of jeans or because my hair is above the length alloted. My ears may be pierced but God will not throw his judgement down upon me for my "worldliness"! That these aren't the things that seperate us. Freeman was a man. Simply that! Prone to his own mistakes and temptations. We should put NO MAN on a pedestal such as he was! And to compare him to christ!...No one is comparable to christ or his teachings. With christs teaching you could find no fault. With Brother Hobart, he was a man with his own vision. But he was just a man!

[hombre]

I would like to hear that tape/s again, Duncan.
I went to college, and beyond to grad school. I encouraged my children to do the same.
Of the five children I have, 3 went, 2 didn't want to. All 3 who did, earned their own way through.
Of the remaining 2, one is working his way through trade school, and wants to continue beyond that
into a specialty area. The last one is content being a mother and homemaker.
I would again say, that I did not allow Faith Assembly, Hobart Freeman,
or anyone else to make rules for me or my family, I chose what I chose to do, of my own free will.
I would also suggest that, IMO, Hobart was offering up a conciliatory note for those who he perceived
could not afford to do it. This is what I remember him saying to the best of my recollection,
and I can almost hear him saying it:

'...you don't need to go to college'

....as in: there are other ways to make a living besides 'white collar' work.

I also think that that particular idea got twisted and distorted in to another legalistic formula,
which along with other things, like Nikes, homemade bread and blue jean jumpers, became
an accepted theological accouterment by those who found it easier to follow rules than to think
for themselves.

If I was able to discern for myself, and make choices for myself,
.... then what does that say about those who didn't?

I don't say this to hurt your feelings, Duncan...I say this because that is what appears to be factual,
and besides, you were just a kid then.

Yes, I was involved with an outreach assembly in Indianapolis, which I attended twice a week,
and Steve Hills' Indianapolis meeting once a week; I was also on Hobarts' automatics,
Steves' automatics, and Bruce Kinseys' automatics. I studied intensely.
We had peer pressure from the little jews and catholics among us, just like FA 'North' had.

If I was able to discern for myself, and make choices for myself,
.... then what does that say about those who didn't?

I don't buy the whole 'Hobart made me do it' excuse....besides, the day that you give up on the idea of improving yourself,
might as well be the day that you simply hang it up, and commit to six feet of dirt.

I would like to quote a Mexican immigrant I spoke to about 2 years ago. He was telling me about his father,
who is in his mid sixties. ' My father has six degrees. He has earned them all here at IUPUI, since he came here
to the States. He says that you are never too old to learn'.

It is way too easy to sit back, complain and blame others, when there are all too many in the world who recognize
the vast opportunity that is present within this great country of ours. Perhaps we have it so good that we don't recognize it.

If your brother is behind where he thinks he should be, then there is no time like the present to catch up.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

What did Hobart preach that was not anointed?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=375&amp;S=336a7e5fd688ecad8707802 e43d7636b#msg_375

[odysseus]

Hombre,

What a shame. Multiple degrees and still no common sense. Your answer to your question is ‘nothing’. That is nothing that wasn’t orthodoxy. Go back to ‘Overcomersonline’ and overcome something. You sure as h*ll can’t do it here.

[healed]

Yes, quite the shame. Hombre likes to impress us with his knowledge he aquired through his worldly education but all the while having one foot in all things FA. A degree dont mean squat. If Duncans brother is out of work, its because he dont want to work. All kinds of occupations are out there that dont require a degree. Sorry, you can do better than that Duncan. Anyways, didnt most of the FA following work in construction?
Active Angel, dont worry. Mark and his comrades over at overcomer online are also in sin, one of them is wearing glasses in his pic and hombre admits to several worldly sins in his post. Mark appears to be wearing *gasp* a sports cap with a team logo on it. These are Neo Freemanites, not the real deal, not the hardliners Im used to.

[hombre]

I guess you guys need more manpower on your hate and criticism team. You forgot to read Angels post, however.
I shall quote a portion of it for you now:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I want to say some really awful things. But what would that make me. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact it would harm your inner man. ...but there are those who seem to thrive on bile and gall.
Interesting, that those who do, have nothing constructive to help others with......just more bitterness. Congratulations, Angel, on having made the leap to maturity and understanding. May God richly bless you and your family.

[odysseus]

Hombre,

(Why does that name make me think of a person who questions his manliness?)

Why don’t you go away and trot back to ‘overcomersonline.com’? No one here really cares what you think is normal or of orthodoxy.

It’s kind of weird that a person who is divorced and got excoriated from a former Faith Assembly satellite church is so much the proponent of all things Freeman. You’re just a small sheep in search of a shepherd to lead you.

You must have problems with male identification, which explains your affection for your screen name, ‘Hombre’. You’re trying to compensate for your weakness by giving yourself a screen name that doesn’t represent what you truly are. You can respond to this in your typical excessive fashion. Please don’t let us down.

You were able to get me banned from Overcomersonline.com. But not here.

[hombre]

Tsk, tsk. More insults.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You’re just a small sheep in search of a shepherd to lead you.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

This one, however, is true. The shepherds name is Jesus.

I am not banning you from OvercomersOnline.com, I am simply going to exercize my ability to eliminate postings that are personally insulting and not of a constructive nature, which yours have continued to be.

BTW: 'Hombre' is a generic Spanish term for 'man'. It carries no connotations of machismo.

[odysseus]

Your Shepherd is a dead man named Freeman, not Jesus. By the way I know what ‘Hombre’ means.

[hombre]

...are you off your medication again?

[odysseus]

No, are you?

[mark1124]

Hi Duncan,

Glad to hear from you. I agree that we should not give Healed any ammunition, just like Fivefoldfalseprophet.

I wanted to quote a comment and ask a question:

You said:

"You had asked what Freeman preached that was not anointed. The first thing that popped into my mind was that he told people that their children should not be sent to college. I believe that his statement was totally from his own mind and had no anointing whatsoever. It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things. However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same.

First off, Bro. Freeman went to college because it opened doors for him to write books etc. That is what I heard on the tapes. I am not sure where or in what context that he mentioned about not sending kids to college. Do you recall what tape he said that on so that I can hear it for myself? Or at least do you remember what series he may have said that in. I am curious in knowing in what context was he saying that.

Thanks for your help. And it is good to talk to someone with some sanity in this forum for a change, even though you and others may not agree with me. That is your priviledge and I won't quarrel with you or anyone about my statements.

God bless

Mark

[mark1124]

Hi Hombre,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. You were wondering where I have been.

I have tried to stay away from the insults from Healed by not coming here. I have been over to the overcomers forum recently but I haven't posted in a while. I've just been busy with things and hope to participate again soon. I will see you there soon.

Take care

Mark

[healed]

"It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things"
"However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same".

Wow you really are a Freemanite. If a man tells you that you shouldnt attend college but he can and did, you follow that? He was able to "discern" things but your not so your not elligible to attend a university? Sounds like a dictator to me or someone who wants to control others. Are you the kind of person that is easy to control? Thats the impression Im getting here brother mark. But what about brother Hombre? He attended college. Is he the exception? Am I in rebelion to Gods word for asking?

[mark1124]

A quote from my friend Hombre:

Ho-hum.
Different day, Same 'ol stale rhetorical regurgitations.

Todays score: F--.

[duncan]

Good morning all.

I have been traveling on business, so I am just now getting a chance to post. I think I have now read everything since I last posted.

First of all, I am going to type very slowly so Healed can understand me. It's obvious by his last couple of posts, that I typed too fast for him. Only Healed could take a sarcastic statement I made about Freeman going to college and make me a "Freemanite" out of it. I even put the word "discern" in quotes to denote the sarcasm. My original point still stands, that I do not believe his comment was anointed in the least.

Mark and Hombre,
The statement Freeman made was early in the series on Biblical Theology. I was listening to it on MP3 not too long ago. (I love to listen to and learn about theology. Since I was too young to understand as a child, I was listening as an adult. As far as theology goes, I can find nothing in which I disagree.)

Anyway, during one of the sermons (I can't recall the exact one), Freeman made the following quote (I listened to it several times, so this is close to an exact quote): "Parents, the surest way to lose your children is to send them to college. I know what I am talking about because I was there and know what they teach."

Like I said before(when Healed couldn't understand), Freeman's above quote basically stated that he was able handle it, but no one else could.

Finally, Angel, I know it's not polite to ask a woman her age, but I'm going to ask anyway. I was just wondering if we may have had any friends in common.

Have a great day. Keep up the quality discussions and lose the junk.

Duncan

[active_angel]

Duncan,
I'm in my latter 20's. Not thirty yet. Sometimes I feel like it though. I don't want to say to much. Now I would just hate to give myself away!!lol But if you have any questions I'd be glad to answer them. Privately at this time of course. My private email is frth_angel@excite.com
Feel free to mail me!
Now back to the other subject at hand...I know that what you said about Freeman's quote is pretty close to the real deal. That's all I will say on that, at this time.

I see here that there is a lot of confusion between what is godly and what isn't. I believe Freeman started off with good intentions. But we all know how that goes. What starts out as good intentions does not always end in good and happy feelings. I for one agree with the ones that have said what happened is not all well and good. There are many lost and hurting souls out there now- because of it. And because God allowed me to come out of it less scathed than others I choose to help the others that are still hurting if possible. And there are still many out there that have a right to be angry if they so choose.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"It was OK for him to go to college, because he was able to "discern" things"
"However, he didn't trust the rest of us to do the same". <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...Duncan wrote that, Mark quoted it.

...go back and read.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Wow you really are a Freemanite. If a man tells you that you shouldnt attend college but he can and did, you follow that? He was able to "discern" things but your not so your not elligible to attend a university? Sounds like a dictator to me or someone who wants to control others. Are you the kind of person that is easy to control? Thats the impression Im getting here brother mark. But what about brother Hombre? He attended college. Is he the exception? Am I in rebelion to Gods word for asking?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...that renders the rest of this dialogue irrelevant....besides, my post already dealt with the whole college issue. I knew quite a number of people there with college educations, including doctorate degrees. You see, it really makes no difference what you learn in this world, for a trade...that is only how you make money...the important thing, and what Jesus will require of us,
is what kind of people we were. To that 'degree', education then is irrelevant.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"Parents, the surest way to lose your children is to send them to college. I know what I am talking about because I was there and know what they teach."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You may be right about those being the exact words.

In fact you may be right about HEFs intentions.

I would say that, however,

1. ) ...we all still had the freedom to choose what we would do for ourselves anyway...didn't we?

2. ) ...I can't argue with HEF about the FACT that MANY, MANY colleges teach every form of liberalism and Humanism under the sun, which almost NEVER agrees with Biblical theology and the Christian walk....and that IF a child is not well-grounded in the Word of God, they are likely to fall prey to the wolves in Professors' clothing.

3. ) ...so then, the solution to me would be found in 2 verses:

A. ) Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
~ Prov. 22:6

B.) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
~ John 17 : 16-17

If we do our part as parents, then we simply rest on the promise and the prayer of God himself.

..and in concluding, I will also say this:

I cannot count the times I heard HEF as well as others in the ministry say:

'This is why we labor in the Word, week after week, to teach you to get into it for yourself...don't believe it because we told you, believe it because it is written'.

...you know, 2 Tim. 2: 15 : Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[active_angel]

Train up a child in the way that he should go,and when he os old he shall not depart from it.

I agree! God was merciful to my parents. No matter the mess - god blessed each one of our footsteps. (My siblings &amp; I) What should have been made evil was turned around for good. That's also in the bible.

But I will also say in many of the parents defense.. Many of them were baby christians during the FA &amp; Freeman era. Not too many of them could distinguish what was actually the word of god &amp; and what wasn't. If you remember as a child yourself that the bible could be a little confusing. So in that same text you can understand why a "Baby Christian" would have diffuculty understanding right from wrong. THey knew no other way. I know that mine didn't. And it wasn't until too late that they figured this out.
I believe we left a couple of years before the actual FA fallout. If that's what were calling it. The reason why we left... Because it became apparent to my parents that there was definately some abuse and neglect going on. And it took my siblings and I a long to get that across to our parents. Children in those days did not speak out against there elders. Ecspecially church elders.

Hombre,
Yes, we had Freedom to choose our paths and what we followed..
FOr example you know what you believe in and you beleve there's no other way..right??
Well what if just one time you had to go against what you believe. Would the people around you with that same belief as you ostracize you, for going against thier beliefs.
Would you be condemned to hell fire. And if even going before your comrades and asking for there forgiveness you still had you "dirty laundry" aired to the whole church. And you were openely punished in front of everyone.
I believe that would make it very hard for you to go against your "beliefs". Yes God may forgive you, but the rest may not.

I believe that you had good experiences. And like I said before...I'm happy for you.
The bible says God only gives us what we can handle. I guess he must have figured I was strong enough to go through what I did.
God Bless

[duncan]

No disagreement from me, Hombre. I agree with your comments. My only point was that I don't believe his comment about college was anointed. It was his own opinion, based upon his own experience.

I also knew people who had college degrees while I was there. The only thing was that they already had their degree. I can't think of a single person while I was there that went to college while attending (there may have been, but I never knew of one.)

Let me conclude by quoting some scripture:

Matt 1:14 states, "Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Akim, Akim the father of Eleazar,"

If we all could remember this, the world would be a better place.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Hombre,
Yes, we had Freedom to choose our paths and what we followed..
FOr example you know what you believe in and you beleve there's no other way..right?? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I believe that Jesus is THE Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that He IS the Way, the Truth, and the LIfe; ...that no man can come to God, but by Him.

Beyond that, how God deals with us as individuals, may be very, very different.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Well what if just one time you had to go against what you believe. Would the people around you with that same belief as you ostracize you, for going against thier beliefs.
Would you be condemned to hell fire. And if even going before your comrades and asking for there forgiveness you still had you "dirty laundry" aired to the whole church. And you were openely punished in front of everyone.
I believe that would make it very hard for you to go against your "beliefs". Yes God may forgive you, but the rest may not.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Like you said earlier, assuming what others lives are about without knowing, can lead to wrong conclusions. I was ostracized by everyone that had been closer than my own blood family when I left. I lost hundreds of dear friends overnight.
...BUT..... I chose to do what I did, because I believed that I was right and justified in doing so...at the time. Looking back, I may have been able to effect some positive changes in peoples minds, by working through things. Abandonment is not the only answer. I am not always right, I accept that. As far as having your laundry aired before the church, I guess my opinion would have to be, that coming to that conclusion in a leadership position would or should be a carefully thought out proposition, and one that would involve a matter of degrees. Ananias and Sapphira lost their lives when their 'laundry was aired', the guy who was doing his own Mother at Corinth, was called out by Paul, and I assume that the letter was read to the entire church.
Those are gross errors however. I do not know what your specific isue was, therefore I can make no assumptions or judgements one way or the other.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I believe that you had good experiences. And like I said before...I'm happy for you.
The bible says God only gives us what we can handle. I guess he must have figured I was strong enough to go through what I did.
God Bless<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I had a great many experiences, some were fantastic, others were less so. I don't feel the need to go into details, however.
As I mentioned at Overcomers, I don't know if it is always an accurate statement which assumes that God is responsible for all of ones circumstances. That's fatalism, or Calvinism. We have been given freedom by God to choose our own paths. Some like yourself may have been abused, but I don't blame that on God's providence. I blame that on bad parenting. Perhaps there are some parents that need to apologize to their children.

[hombre]

Nice post, Duncan.

Home schooling wasn't my cup of tea either....but it worked, I guess, for some, and still does for a great many people who have no idea what Faith Assembly was.

Some things like that are sound ideas, but not necessarily for everyone....and in some ways, I have to conclude that Hobart may have been right about the inability of some to discern.
....it would seem as though there were a number of people that
were not able to do that, and in being thus, became the 'lawgivers' that bred the legalism that we all love to eschew.

[healed]

According to the 3 brothers, (or 3 the stooges, my oh my, that brings back memories of Mark and some naughty naughty sites he posted on) here, it would seem that I am to slow or dumb to comprehend what brothers Duncan and Homebread type. No matter how you two clowns try and twist it around, I got it the first time. Freeman did not approve of his flock attending college, for whatever reason, and the fools at FA were in awe of whatever feel out of his mouth and went right along with it. I personally think it was Freemans way of controlling his congregation, just like Jones did with his club in South Africa, I mean I see similiarities between the two. Mind control is mind control, now matter how much you respect your leader. Now that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment, I am able to see clearly the lunancy of Freemans teachings and the stupidity/naivity of the flock that followed. Now this surely wont be music to brothers Duncan, Hombread or Marks ears, but its truth, and the truth has set me free.

[mark1124]

Hey healed. I have an announcement for you. It is not called the gift of discernment. It is the discerning of spirits and it has nothing to do with what you allude to. Secondly, you could not have this gift (discerning of spirits) because it only belongs to Christians as the Holy Spirit wills to give it. See 1 Cor 12.

Anyway...thanks for reminding me of my alledge posting to some "naughty naughty sights." I think you will agree with me on this one...that it was so stupid about what Michael fivefoldprophetess accused me of, no matter what I tried to tell him. Thanks for bringing back the memories. I needed a good laugh. He still probably believes that I posted to a pornographic website as well as supported the war in Iraq.

Well...enough said. The truth is known and God knows my heart.

And one other thing...the only thing that has happened to you, "brother" Healed, is that the truth did not set you free. At least, maybe your own perversion of the truth.

I perceive that you are harboring bitterness and that is understandable for a person who is walking in the flesh.

You can believe the lies if you want to. I will walk in the truth and that truth is the word of God, which indeed has set me free.

[healed]

Gift, spirit, sense, whatever, I am able to discern that the teachings of Freeman enslaved and brought destruction to many lives. It really baffels me as to why some can still be attached to it. I guess its difficult to fill such a huge void. Perhaps others didnt have to experience the hells I had to go through, or they still need the beliefs to provide hope. Once I made it through all the depression, despair etc that came from being around that mess, I know the truth, I know what it means to be set free, to be healed. Its something you cannot take from me because I am a survivor of the most extreme circumstances. You confuse harboring bitterness with someone who has overcomed and pushed their way through the darkness and now is living in the light. Sure, not all days are full of hope, and your kind would surely be their to disqualify and to inject your venom during those difficult times, but I have been vaccinated against it because I know your crap only leads to misery. As I posted before, Im not here to destroy your faith. If you quote scripture that provides hope without distortion, Im all for it. You, however, interject crap like this in your message: "What did Hobart preach that was not anointed? He preached the word and the anointing is on the word. If you do not believe that the anointing is on the word of God, then yes, you are deceived" or "It is good to get back into the word of God that brings freedom. And thank God that it is by God's anointed servant, Hobart E. Freeman. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't anointed is deceived and deluded". So what if I and others dont belive that HEF was Gods annointed servant but instead a misguided selfish dictator that ruled over his congregation from the pulpit? I am deceived and deluded, correct?

[mark1124]

Thou saith it.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I guess he must have figured I was strong enough to go through what I did. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
~ 1 Cor. 10:13

..I heard a fascinating take on that scripture this last weekend.

....we used to hear 'or trial' added into it; however, this preacher wanted to insist that it was about temptation, purely.
That would make a lot more sense, to me, than if we were talking about temptations and trials, since it tells us that God provides a way of escape. For temptation, there are escapes. Like a door. The point being, that many times, in trials, one can be overwhelmed by circumstances to the point that it is impossible for one to overcome....within themselves. That is why we have the need for faith... therefore, the quoting of this scripture as a statement of passive acceptance of what one is/has experienced is not necessarily a suitable explanation for it, or the end of the matter.

I take comfort in that idea, for we may all have scars of one sort or another, but the way to healing and deliverance from the impossible is once again, pointing to faith in Jesus the Christ.

[hardbones]

Quote

So what if I and others dont belive that HEF was Gods annointed servant but instead a misguided selfish dictator that ruled over his congregation from the pulpit?

I agree he had some autocratic tendencies but do you think he knew the effect his teaching was having on the church? In other words do you think he was aware of the slavish obedience we all exhibited toward every word he spoke. That we all stopped thinking for ourselves and just idolized the man? I think for whatever reason he just didn't or couldn't see it. I still embrace the faith message but I see no value in covering up the problems or Freemans problems.
I just cannot understand why he couldn't see the effect he was having on all of us.

[healed]

He thought he was right and in line with Gods word just like Mark does. The effect his teaching was having was just the effect he wanted/expected. I dont think its a matter of he couldnt see it, its what he expected because in his eyes he was doing no wrong, he was just. This is the danger in cults.

[mark1124]

I wish you people would grow up and stop crying about the past. AND GET OVER IT!

That was tame compared to what I want to say.
The problem is...you blame Hobart for all your failures. Nice job.

Mark

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

He thought he was right and in line with Gods word just like Mark does. The effect his teaching was having was just the effect he wanted/expected. I dont think its a matter of he couldnt see it, its what he expected because in his eyes he was doing no wrong, he was just. This is the danger in cults.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I keep asking the same question over and over, but I can't get a commitment from any HEF/FA criticizer to tell us whether the following means what it says or not.

..And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
~ Mark 16: 17-18

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
~ Mark 11:23-4

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
~ John 14 :12

So tell us...what do these things mean?

Are these HEFs words?..or Gods' Words?

....and if they do not work as stated above, who is the liar?

...you know, I'm with Paul.

If this stuff isn't true, let's just chuck it all, because there are a whole lotta things in there that would be easier to do without.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our LORD, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
~ Cor. 15 : 24-34

...nevertheless, as Paul is convinced, so am I, and there will always remain two camps, until the final day: believers and unbelievers.

[healed]

Well Hombre and Brother Mark, tell me this-what about the people that got hands laid on and died? What about them, they didnt belive? I know they belived, some until death. You say you cant get a fair answer to us "critics", well I cant get a fair answer as to why so many died believing. So your saying you dont seek medical attention at all now? Yeah right. So if you do, your not believing Gods word, now are you? So you point to scripture but when its time to "believe" as you say, its a different route you take. You say that Hobart was only speaking the word. So all the other ministers in the world are not speaking the word? What if their take on those verses are different? I never saw a FA member move a mountain or any healing whatsoever. So Im guessing something was wrong with that church. There are some things that require common sense, like a cavity in a tooth that requires filling or eyesight correction. I dont think its any mans right or calling to tell or suggest to anyone that getting medical attention is wrong or instill guilt for it. You can twist or quote me scripture all day, but for you to take it upon yourself to suggest to others that seeking medical attention is doubt, your playing God. I dont remeber reading in the New Testament about anyone dying when Jesus laid hands on them, but several did at FA. I dont belive those scriptures are to be taken out of context, your reading too much into it. Jesus is not here in the flesh to guide people, and Hobart wasnt Jesus. I dont need Hobart to teach me about the word and then die because of what he belived. Are you getting it yet?

(Message edited by healed on December 21, 2006)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Well Hombre and Brother Mark, tell me this-what about the people that got hands laid on and died? What about them, they didnt belive? I know they belived, some until death. You say you cant get a fair answer to us "critics", well I cant get a fair answer as to why so many died believing.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...the issue I am raising, that you still did not answer, Healed, is whether or not what is written in ~ The Bible ~ is Gods' word or not. Whether people believe, die or get healed is not the question; in addition, I am not going to speculate about the lives and hearts of anyone but myself, because I simply don't know whether 'they' were believing in Hobart or in Jesus or any number of other questions like whether they were in sin, meeting conditions, etc. In order to understand, you must want to understand...that is where my mindset is at, because I choose to believe that ~The Bible IS Gods' Word. I have written here for over a year now, and expressed many, many possibilities for not receiving. It is up to an individual to know for himself, whether he is in faith about something, or whether he is in water over his head. You, for example would drown in about 1/2 inch; I say this not to demean you, but because you express faith in God for basically nothing, and consistently avoid confronting what the Bible says, instead blaming it all on HEF and FA.

I'll ask again: Are these Gods' Words or Hobarts, and what do they mean?

..And these signs shall follow them that believe; ....they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
~ Mark 16: 17-18

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
~ Mark 11:23-4

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
~ John 14 :12

[healed]

Your asking vague and ambiguious questions like are these Gods words or Hobarts, and what do they mean? They are words written in the bible and obvisouly open to interpretation as there are so many views. If someone challenged Hobarts words then they were asked to leave. You can quote the verses all day but when put into practice and it doesnt work, what next? What am I blaming on FA or HEF? The fact that so many lives were destroyed and many lost? Is it wrong for me to question this? The only explanation you provide to these happenings is the same lame quotation of scripture. You wrote "Whether people believe, die or get healed is not the question"; But it is the question because that is the result of error in HEF message, he died because of it and so did many others! If HEF was still alive today and his foot healed, then I might be inclined to side with you, but he died, as did his wife and many others of treatable ailments. These faith healing teachings are bondage, and are parrallel to the other crap that he put out there. Why is it a sin to have a TV in ones home? If I remeber correctly, HEF and some of the other chosen ones had a TV, but the following, including our house, wasnt allowed. The elite could decipher for me what I was going to hear about "current events" as they related to the end times. I find that very disturbing as well as many other issues like HEF having his Doctorate but we drones couldnt even attend undergraduate school. Like Mark said, HEF had the gift of discerment, implying that I didnt. When would I be allowed to view TV or go to college, after I received HEF permission? I can remeber a relative hanging on to every word and rewinding those tapes over and over, trying to catch some new dreaded rule that HEF had come up with. There is more to work there than legalism, thats mind control.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Your asking vague and ambiguious questions like are these Gods words or Hobarts, and what do they mean? They are words written in the bible and obvisouly open to interpretation as there are so many views.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

My question is neither vague nor ambiguous. I am simply asking you to tell me if they are Gods' Words, or Hobarts. In addition I am asking you to decipher them, and give us your interpretation of them. Personally, I don't see where these verses mean anything else than what they plainly say, but again, I am asking you to tell us what they mean, if they don't mean what they say.
Like I said, there are a lot of things in there that people would like to change, and then do so by hiding behind their thin humanistic veil of reasoning with excuses ranging from 'various interpretations', to historical issues with the text. Jesus said that one must receive Him as a little child, and there is no little child with a doctorate.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

If someone challenged Hobarts words then they were asked to leave. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well then, that should have made it easy enough for anyone to go if they wanted. What did they fear losing if they didn't agree anyway?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You can quote the verses all day but when put into practice and it doesnt work, what next?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That's what I've been spending the last year trying to help you and others like you begin to understand. The bottom line goes back to my intial question: Are they Gods' Words, or Hobarts?
If you conclude that they are Gods' words, then one must examine his/her own life. The issue of Christianity IS NOT ABOUT DIVINE HEALING, it is about the condition of ones' heart. Far better to straighten that issue out first, than to grit ones' teeth, reciting scripture like a drone, whilst eschewing doctors, and then die. And may I say it once more? People shouldn't go into deep water, if they don't know how to swim, or they doubt their ability to do so.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

What am I blaming on FA or HEF? The fact that so many lives were destroyed and many lost? Is it wrong for me to question this? The only explanation you provide to these happenings is the same lame quotation of scripture. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I don't blame you for questioning, Healed. I don't blame you for anything. I am asking you, however, to settle the question for yourself about the Bibles' authenticity. What is wrong with simply saying: ' I believe that Jesus is the Christ, but I don't really understand why some of the issues that arose in FA concluded the way they did ', and then just letting it go, and moving on. There are some things that we may never know. We may find out that Hobart had some sin in his life...like unforgiveness or whatever, that disallowed him from receiving. Who knows? that is why I say that this is all between you and God, nobody else. If you have a problem, then you need to work it out for yourself. Accusing HEF/FA is not going to get you anywhere in your personal walk with the Lord, and your argument about clear Bible scriptures being subject to interpretation is going to continue to fall apart, leaving you with no foundation with which to base your accusations. You either believe, or you chuck the Book.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"Whether people believe, die or get healed is not the question"; But it is the question because that is the result of error in HEF message, he died because of it and so did many others!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

It is not the THE question that Christianity poses. That one gets healed supernaturally or not, is irrelevant to their eternal salvation. Would you mind another scripture?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me IN THAT DAY, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
~ Matt. 7: 21-23

Apparently, ones' 'miracle record' is not what matters to Jesus, for it is clearly NOT going to get them in by itself.

...and another.

....And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, FORBID him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
~ Luke 9: 49-50

Let me paraphrase the words of Jesus, if you will:

'So what?'

I don't know, and neither does anyone else, why HEF or anyone else did not receive the healing that he preached. A mans heart is a deep well, and no one knows what goes on there except the man and God. If only ONE person gets healed, that is enough to prove the message of the Bible. I have known of people who were healed, including myself, of things simply because they quit sinning: they forgave somebody, they stopped doing what they knew to be wrong, etc. They got their hearts in line with the Word, and their bodies stopped being sick. That is a commonly understood medical fact as well. Broken Bones and Cancer? I don't know if I can swim that deep yet, but I'm not throwing out the Word because my faith level isn't there yet. I don't know.
I know it is possible, but I don't know for myself, and I would certainly never judge anyone else for getting a cast or chemo.

This whole argument that you and others pursue...your quest to demonize Freeman, is not providing any answers for any of us. Do you think that Mark, Mulder and myself are complete morons, and that we don't recognize that people have died?....I think that if you stop being so hateful and bitter about the past, you might recognize that there are those of us from FA who are trying to help others cope with, and understand the various issues that we have all suffered, including the alienation of each other. You have grown since the last time we spoke. Last year, you couldn't write without spitting nails in every direction. I am not interested in forcing you into a mindset that embraces what you don't agree with. I am trying to help you, and others, find Biblical answers/resolutions to your questions.

(Message edited by hombre on December 22, 2006)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

If HEF was still alive today and his foot healed, then I might be inclined to side with you, but he died, as did his wife and many others of treatable ailments. These faith healing teachings are bondage, and are parrallel to the other crap that he put out there. Why is it a sin to have a TV in ones home? If I remeber correctly, HEF and some of the other chosen ones had a TV, but the following, including our house, wasnt allowed. The elite could decipher for me what I was going to hear about "current events" as they related to the end times. I find that very disturbing as well as many other issues like HEF having his Doctorate but we drones couldnt even attend undergraduate school. Like Mark said, HEF had the gift of discerment, implying that I didnt. When would I be allowed to view TV or go to college, after I received HEF permission? I can remeber a relative hanging on to every word and rewinding those tapes over and over, trying to catch some new dreaded rule that HEF had come up with. There is more to work there than legalism, thats mind control.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

This is where we disagree:
You say that FA/HEF put people into bondage.
I say that people passively allowed themselves to fall into bondages of their own manufacture.

The congregation was told repeatedly by HEF that they needed to study for themselves, and be persuaded
not by any man, but by the Word of God. From the first time this was ever said, people either made up their minds to do so, or they didn't bother. If one person...that would be ME...was able to walk away of their own free will, why didn't others? I left because people were making too many rules for themselves that were not essential elements of Christianity, and by doing so, either made their lives incredibly difficult, or even ruined them. How did I know this? Aside of common sense, I need/ed a Biblical answer. Just like the example I gave you above about Jesus' and the miracle workers.

'They work miracles in my Name?'

So what.

After receiving Christ into ones' heart, this is the Christian life.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
~ Matt: 22: 35 - 40

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
~ James 1 : 27

[hombre]

I have another question.
If there were people that as you say, were unable to make up their own minds about the direction that they were taking in their lives, through their own free will, because they were brainwashed, perhaps then they could also not discern good from evil on a tv set or in a secular school? That would make sense. But I am speaking like a fool, as Paul says. Nevertheless, there are other religions that embrace aspects of asceticism besides Christianity. That your parents chose to do what they did, was their business. Now it is your business.
Do what you will, it is never too late to get an education. I know of many middle aged people who have done it and improved their lives financially. Get cable TV with a thousand channels. It's up to you how you use it. You're free aren't you? The point of being free from the world, however, is that worldliness does not engender spirituality....and that is/was FA/HEFs position, NOT the twisted legalism that became gospel to those who merely wanted a list to follow that would guarantee them success and favor with God. What I'm saying, Healed, is that not everyone who attended FA, was like the people you knew, and your view of me and others is colored by your personal experience, regardless of its' merit.

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) : for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
~ Matt. 6 : 31-34

[healed]

Well thanks for all the advice brother Holmes but Ive already heard it read it and dealt with it. See the problem isnt with the innocent reading of scriptures, its what follows, that stick murky world of FA. Now I know you typed forget about Freeman and FA and accept Jesus in your heart, etc etc. Well thanks brother Holmes, I wished it would of been that simple and sincere years ago. How many times do I still hear that, then Im offered the "meat" which is a bunch of miserable crap that comes straight outta FA. You see brother Holmes, you aint reading to me nothing I aint read before from the bible. The problem that I have to deal with is bigger and more complex, that is those folks, probally not much unlike yourself whos only way is the FA way. Sure, they try and camaflague their initial message with sweet words and promising scripture. I can get the sweet words and scripture from any denomination brother Holmes. Thats not this issue. Its the constant battle of trying to fight off someone who is trying to pull you in and thus pull you down into that quagmire of hell that came out of FA. Sure, theyll say they are praying for you or this or that, but their only intention is to get you back into the church, but its not any ole church, its the church that THEY approved of because THEY have the spirit of discernment as your comrade mark sayeth and only their church is deemed worthy of attending. Thanks but no thanks brother Holmes. been there done that.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The problem that I have to deal with is bigger and more complex, that is those folks, probally not much unlike yourself whos only way is the FA way. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

The only way that I know of Healed, is The Bible way...and the method that I use for determining what it has to say on any subject, is through a systematic study of that subject. Divine Healing and Nikes are not salvation issues. Neither is Eschatology, though some would like to make it so. That is what I am saying is the difference between what you are so bitter about, and the reality of the matter. If you let anyone bully you into a belief, whether it's true or not, the natural long term response is bound to be resentment and bitterness, because you didn't make that decision yourself. Especially when traumas occured that you can connect with that system. Ever wonder why God doesn't just step down and just make it easy on all of us, by explaining everything?...perhaps because He values human freedom and their ability to make a choice on their own.

Tell me what I have to gain, from debating these issues with you? I'm not a leader of any church wanting to swell a congregation with paying members. I'm not in this to try to appear right in front of the tiny number of people who read this either. I know Healed, that you have been through enough to make you this bitter, but personally, I don't believe that the solution is to throw out the baby with the bathwater; which is what happens when one simply takes the entirety of what happened at FA, and throws all responsibility upon the leadership for it, regardless of the issues and the circumstances behind the issues. You blame HEF/FA. I blame peer pressure ignorance, weak spined individuals who couldn't /wouldn't - think/act/believe for themselves, and the twisting and boiling down of principles into laws...again, by the 'laity'.

If I were to go through all of the tapes that HEF ever did, I am sure that I could come up with scores of instances where he encouraged people to study for themselves, and to be connvinced for themselves. I can also come up with times that HEF recommended going to doctors if you didn't have faith for healing. The sharp rebukes to the assembly after Carl Seitz death were enough in themselves to settle the matter. That HEF died from what he died from, was his own choice. So I'm sorry, but I don't really see any issue with FA/HEF and faith healing...that he recommended faith healing over medical healing, there is no doubt, but to say that it was legislated, or that people were brainwashed by HEF is entirely untrue. I would say, however, that people perhaps allowed themselves to become 'brainwashed' by FA ( meaning: by their peers ), as can be so easily evidenced in the hysteria to rid ones' closets of Nikes, etc. Stupid. People were 'trying' to do things based upon what they saw with their understanding, rather than what they really believed in their hearts. Throwing away glasses became more of an act of religious piety, than of faith. There IS a difference, and that is still what some do not see. Peter learned the hard way when he saw Jesus walk on the water and he tried it himself. He saw and believed for that brief moment when everything seemed possible, but when he considered the reality of the situation, his faith floundered and so did he.

[hombre]

Perhaps, healed, you have never been touched by the power of God, the way that some of us have. I say this not to bully you, or to make anything of myself, because it was not of my doing; however, once one has experienced that power, it is slightly impossible to doubt its' reality. Having had that experience, however, is not enough to answer every question that may ever arise from anyone in this world. It is not enough either, for me to understand everything that I have been through. I still must face the same issues that everyone else faces, either with faith, or with skepticism and doubt. What I choose to believe God for, is my own business, and none of yours... same goes for you and everyone else.

Healed; I am only trying to encourage you to simply throw away your bitterness, forget about FA/HEF, and seek the Lord for yourself.

[odysseus]

How can one person write so much and say nothing?

What a fraud.......

[healed]

Thats kind of the feeling Im getting here Hombre, your saying a whole lot but not really saying anything. Your missing the point. Now your saying Im bitter. I dont call it bitterness, but even if its bitterness, its a step ahead of despair and confusion. Basically everything you said is something I can get at any denominational church. So whats your point? Your a day late and a dollar short with all that, if we could rewind the clock and put some people in those churches that werent cults like FA, then perhaps most of this wouldnt of came about now would it? Forget about FA/HEF? Nice try. I still got family in it.

[odysseus]

Hombre, you used to be so entertaining; however you’re starting to bore us now.

What can you overcome Hombre? I mean really, what can you overcome? You claim to be an ‘Overcomer’? You certainly can’t overcome your insulting tone or your spiritual pride. You seem to not be able to overcome that part of your personality that convinces you that you have THE TRUTH. Can you overcome the fact that your wife left you because you’re an egocentric know-it-all?

I’ve seen your posts over the past year or so. You’re not only an egocentric know-it-all; you’re a pompous spiritual oppressor that has no empathy for lives that were harmed by FA. There’s no love in your heart for the hurting folks out there. Can you overcome that? I’ve watched your responses to people like this over the past year or so. You’re cold and heartless in your replies to them. God have mercy on you.

[odysseus]

Continued…..

Your treatment of Active Angel should have shown more restraint. First of all I don’t think you have ever been sexually molested. Have you ever dealt with people that were? I have. In our satellite (FA) church we had a leader that did just that. It split the church up! Go back and read my previous posts about that, you loon. And don’t worry; no one here is blaming your fabulous Hobart Freeman for it. You need to understand when a person has had their innocence taken away from them in a situation like this, it makes no difference to their emotional state whether it’s in a Church or whatever, it’s not hard to lump the whole bunch together. I’ve had two people that I love go through something like this. I know Hombre, you don’t care, YOU’RE AN OVERCOMER!

What you really are is an empty vessel and a fraud like I’ve said in the past. A ‘POLTROON’. That’s the word I said to you on overcomersonline that you got me banned for. Funny, you can call me a Moron on this site and get away with it, but I can’t call you a poltroon on another site you control. Well that’s what a ‘poltroon’ does, doesn’t he?

It must really tick you off that some of us have gone on to have normal successful lives without bowing down to Hobart or all things FA.

Do us all a favor and go back to www.overcomersonline.com (http://www.overcomersonline.com) and get with William. Both of you can stroke each others ego, overcome something and control the content on your little website without having to answer the hard questions. Hey maybe you can get some folks together for a Faith Assembly reunion and a hayride. Either way go away, you bore us.

[mark1124]

Another troll that shows off his foolishness with his empty words which they will have to account for on the day of judgment.

[healed]

Brother Mark seems to be implying that If I speak out against Freeman will I will be judged for it on the day of judgement? I must be careful brother Mark.

"Take heed lest any man deceive you"
Mark 13:5

I find it interesting that all who died that followed Christ died as martyers and not of disease but not one follower of Freeman died as a martyer but of disease.

[mark1124]

It just amazes me how so many people who were claimed that they sat under the deeper life message now have rejected it, claiming it to be legalistic and have walked away from what they once praised. It just goes to prove to me that you folks couldn't handle the teachings of the word of God. You know, there were many followers of Jesus until He started teaching them about the deeper things of God as well and most left him because His words were too strong for them. Only a handful remained...as is the case with the message that God gave Bro. Freeman.
It also proves that you were not grounded in the word of God at all.

And yet you have the audacity to tell us that everything was Brother Freeman's fault because of your failings and your immoral lifestyles that you fell into after leaving FA. And now I am reading about child abuse? How low will you go, those of you that cannot or will not account for your own failures. It just goes to prove to me the shallowness of your Christianity, that is, if you are Christians at all.

I agree with Hombre on his posts and I trust that he will stand firm in trying to help you folks. But I am thinking now that he is wasting goods seed on bad soil.

I wonder what other things everyone will be blaming Freeman for next. It is amazing that recently I was listening to Tom Hamilton on a tape just the other day about how people are blaming Freeman for their shortcomings and their adulterous lives and other things. He must have had access to this site as well as Tomax's site.
He's about as disgusted about the blame game trap as I am.

Why don't you just own up to your failures and stop blaming other people for your mistakes.
It's time to take responsibility and repent of your misgivings and let God do a real healing in you.

You mock at the overcoming message because you have been overcome yourself. You have let someone take that which you had. I can't believe how so many who had the priviledge of sitting under Bro. Freeman's ministry now have fallen away. I would have love to have gone to ONE service...just ONE. You had it for a number of years and yet you rejected what God gave you. How pathetic!

Hang in there Hombre. God is on your side, my brother, my friend!

[healed]

"I would have love to have gone to ONE service...just ONE".

Only somebody like you could type that.

You know the whole point of having this site is to discuss and expose, as well as other reasons, where cults like FA went wrong. Freeman interpreted the bible to mean that Jesus gave us all the power to raise the dead and heal the sick, but its interesting that only he and after he died, the apostles could do it. Jesus did it to prove to the unbeliving that he was the son of God. I cant find any scripture that quotes Jesus healing somebody, then they themselves giving up medical treatment and practicing healing or raising the dead, other than the disciples who he delegated power to do it after his asccension. The primary purpose of the miracles was to prove to the people that this stranger named Jesus was indeed the son of God. If some stranger came walking in my town proclaiming to be the son of God, I would obvisouly want proof, otherwise I would think him crazy. Jesus even acknowledged doctors exisited and were of value in this verse:

"They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." But go ye and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9: 12,13

The danger in people like Freeman is that they read and twist the scripture word for word, and create bondages that only create more fear and guilt. When I read the scriptures with an open mind, I can see where Freeman made many errors. Sure, he belived what he taught and some of it was truth, but where he errored it cost folks their lives.

[odysseus]

Brother Mark,

Don’t feel sorry for me. Life is good and I can’t complain. God has blessed me richly. I’m not an adulterer either. I’m married to one woman; kids are grown except for one. Even have grandkids. Yes sir, I’m one happy man.

The other good thing is I get to be entertained by mindless ‘neo-freemanites’ as yourself and Hombre along with sweet Moulder of overcomersonline.com, (you know the guy with the glasses). And yes I mock you; sorry you’re just too easy to make fun of with your room temperature IQ. You guys are just a target rich environment.

[hombre]

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; ~ Heb. 12: 14-15

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. ~ Col. 3:12-17

The next issue to deal with here, is whether or not FA under HEF was a cult,
and whether or not FactNet is:
1. A credible/reliable source or judge in that matter, and
2. A source for purely negative input concerning whatever group is listed,
or a source for healing to those who seek to understand their lives.

Was FA under HEF a cult?

First. let's get a definition of the term. Here's one that should suffice to everyone's approval.

Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members
often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

Every group on earth that is or ever was, can pretty much fit into this category,
because people believe what they want to believe, and see those who don't as wrong,
or unorthodox to their particular belief system.

To the Protestants, the Catholic Church is one of the biggest cults in the world.
To the Catholics, and liberals, the Evangelicals are nothing but a huge cult.
To the Muslims, the entire world except them, all belong to Satan.
Nazism was a huge political cult, following Hitler under a form of mass hypnosis,
as psychologists will tell you. So were the Romans, the Greeks, the French under Napoleon,
The Russians, the Chinese and the rest of the communists following yet another 'cult' of
extremism with their secular heroes lionized. Bush, that Nazi to the liberals;
the liberals as treehugging dimwits following speculative science to the conservatives.
the Humanists following Darwin, yet missing their precious missing link and avoiding
all other evidence to the contrary. To atheists, all religious people are cultists.

Everyone is considered to be false, unorthodox and extremist to somebody, so the term ' cult' is relative.
Here at Factnet, and generally, the term 'cult' is meant to impart a derogatory connotation of evil.
If there are some who want to call FA under HEF a 'cult', then I suppose they have a right to do that
under the constitution, but it may not be written in stone elsewhere.......

[hombre]

Part 2.

A. Is Factnet a credible source of material about 'cults'?

Back to question 1. To those who want to believe it is, to them, it is.
Let's take a look at some of the various groups Factnet lists as 'cults' or 'sects'.

The Pentecostal Church.
The Evangelical Hypocrisy/ Bush War Crimes
Religious Leaders / Organizational Leaders / TV Evangelists
Alcoholics Anonymous ( a group of people who obviously don't want to give up the bottle )
the Worldwide Church of God
Atheism
Oral Roberts University'
FactNet ( even factnet doesn't escape its' own trolling net for evil )
Islam
Campus Crusade for Christ

...and on, and on, and on.

Everyone wants to complain, eviscerate, and/or crucify that which offends them personally.

Factnet is anything to anybody.

Therefore, no one here has a right to attempt to ban anothers' way of thinking or believing.
It is a forum. A forum is defined as: an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc.,
for the discussion of questions of public interest.


2B. Is Factnet a source for purely negative input concerning whatever group is listed,
or a source for healing to those who seek to understand their lives?

Back to 2A. Factnet is whatever it is to anybody.

Conclusion: To me, Factnet is an outreach to those who are lost or hurting.
To some others, it is a place to curse and denigrate those they disagree with.
I have stated many times, that I am not perfect, however, in looking at the road ahead of me,
there appears always, a fork.

There is a way that seems right to men, however, the Bible declares that to be the way of death.
Let's prayerfully consider the one we take, especially with respect to others.

[duncan]

Hombre,

1) FA, under HEF and beyond, did(does) display cult-like characteristics. I would not go so far as to call it a cult. Toward the end of HEF's life, it became more and more introverted, thus becoming more cult-like. The main purpose of a church is to reach the lost and dying world. FA began that way, but eventually became a "closed society." The people and the leadership became more concerned with those that were already "overcomers" than with trying to reach out to a lost world.

2) Factnet can be a source of information (both good and bad), it can be a place to vent one's emotions due to past events that were upseting, and it can be a forum to challenge one's mind. I have used Factnet for all three of these things.

That being said, the anonymity of this forum makes it very easy for people to breeze in and out with unverifiable statements. By its very nature, this forum has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Just my thoughts.

Duncan

[hardbones]

Well like you I wouldn't call FA a cult. I also agree with the introverted bit. My experience was with one of the satellite churches in Canada. I was never part of FA so for me it was a little different. What I saw was myself and everyone I knew and from what I heard everyone everywhere else just following Freeman. He made a offhand comment about hunting for eg. and everyone quit hunting(bambi). I thank God for Bro. Freeman. I think he stood head and shoulders above his generation of xian leaders. The Holy Spirit used that man to lay a foundation of truth in my life that has served me very well. From my perspective though he would give an opinion on something and everyone just obeyed without question. As I said before I think he was idolized in an unhealthy way, I don't think he could see it, and I think it was spiritual. I simply don't understand why he couldn't see that.

[hombre]

Thanks, Duncan.

RE: A closed society.

Christianity is by its' very nature a 'closed' or 'exclusive' society. This is where Evangelicals and Calvinists part company. Yes, the church is not to hide its' light, but be a light to the world, but no, not everyone is called or chosen through predestination and election. The Calvinists might accuse the Evangelicals of vanity, and the Evangelicals might accuse the Calvinists of 'not fulfilling the Great Commission'. Personally, I tend away from the Evangelical position, because I see far too many wasted hard-earned dollars thrown away in worthless pursuits masquerading as 'missionary outreaches'. At the same time, I wouldn't have received Jesus as the Christ myself, if not for someone telling me about Him. Therefore, I tend to think that one needs to be very much led of the Lord, as to who, and when they are going to 'witness' to. Having said this, and knowing that someone will become offended at what I'm, going to say next, I will simply say that the 'lost' or 'unsaved' need to get 'saved' in order to take a place in the New Testament church. The church really does not need the lost sitting there week after week, twisting and perverting the Word of God to fit their own agenda in their minds thinking that they are OK, when they are not. In this I speak of the vast multitude who think that the act of going to church 'earns' them a ticket, and twist grace into works. Next, that being said, FA had far too many Catholics and Jews ( spiritually speaking ) who wanted laws and rules to govern their lives by, and guarantee the answers to their prayers , because they did A, B, and C. Within this sort of organized spiritual chaos, came the media to play up whatever they could find that would be sensational and sell airtime/newspapers. That was when FA/HEF shut out the world, and encouraged us to do the same. Along with this were the many other charismatic leaders, who denounced the 'Faith Message' and criticized HEF for his lack of 'love', whom HEF in turn criticized for their lack of loving the truth over touchy-feely goodtimes. All of these factors ( 1. Theology, 2. the Media and 3. Other Charismatics ) served to isolate FA and HEF. That HEF was wrong theologically, we are still arguing about. I am still 100% convinced that HEF had his theology down pat, and I put the blame elsewhere, including upon my own shoulders, than upon the Word of God, which no one is going to change, except by deleting 'problematic' verses, specifically beginning with the book of Mark, much of the other gospels, James, 1 John, Isaiah etc., etc., etc. It will remain a closed book and a closed religion to those who reject it, and therefore a 'cult' or 'cultish' to outsiders.

[hombre]

BTW: .... thanks for the encouragment, Mark.

[healed]

Well of course I dont expect you to call it a cult. I noticed you (Homy) once again typed a whole lot about nothing. You didnt address one thing I typed in my post about the extremism of Freemans ideas. Like I said earlier, I read the bible for myself now and for the life of me I still cant understand how somebody could go off the deep end like Freeman did. I cant find anything in the New Testament that condemns anybody for seeking medical attention. Like I said earlier, Jesus healed and performed miracles so that people would belive this stranger was the son of God. The only other documented cases that I could find were the apostles doing it after Jesus died. Jesus even acknowledged the benifit of physicians in this verse: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." But go ye and learn what that meaneth. I will have mercy, and not sacrifice; for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9: 12,13 It doesnt say, those who are lacking in faith or those who are sinners need a physician so obvisouly Jesus is not speaking of doctors as being occult like Freeman did but is refering to them as neccessary.
Now I read your (Homy) post about the definition of cults. You even give us the definition: "Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader."
I can say without any reservation that FA fit this description. There were churches on every corner near where I lived but none of them were worthy to attend because they didnt teach the "full word" What that meant was they werent unorthodox or extremist like Freeman. We had to drive for miles just to get the "true" word. Whats interesting, is after all that time and effort and hardship, that most of those clowns who were Freemans puppets that I had to endure listening to in satellite churches have returned to their worldly lives and forsaken the FA message. I notice that Homy goes on to list all these other churches and movements that could qualify as a cult. Well, if I wanted to discuss those "cults" I would be posting under another thread now wouldnt I? We are discussing the cult FA, not other churches. Then you and Duncan go on to disqualify Factnet as being a site that "is whatever it is to anybody" Whatever that is supposed to mean I dont know but when you go to their homepage, it clearly shows they are a site dedicated to exposing cults. Their mission states "We are to destructive cults, fundamentalism, mind control, and mental coercion/torture what Amnesty International is to physical torture" That doesnt appear to me to be just a site for general feel good blogging where people vent their frustrations their Homy and Duncan. You can google Freeman and see his name come up several time under cult catagories. I know you dont like to see that, but its the truth.
And last but not least I read this ridiculous statement; "Within this sort of organized spiritual chaos, came the media to play up whatever they could find that would be sensational and sell airtime/newspapers. That was when FA/HEF shut out the world, and encouraged us to do the same." Dude you really are a hardcore Freemanite, arent you? The media only came after DEATHS began to surface. Deaths that could of been prevented. I mean what is the rest of the world supposed to do, allow this to continue? Cant you see where your thinking is twisted? I mean the US constitution allows for us all to practice whatever relegion we want, and gives us liberal choices but that doesnt mean you abuse it by allowing deaths to occur. Somebody eventually had to get involved. Its always interesting to read the replies from you and mark because you eventually reveal your twisted thinking.

(Message edited by healed on January 05, 2007)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I cant find anything in the New Testament that condemns anybody for seeking medical attention. Like I said earlier, Jesus healed and performed miracles so that people would belive this stranger was the son of God. The only other documented cases that I could find were the apostles doing it after Jesus died.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I don't find that either, healed. What I do find however, are promises repeated over and over concerning the wilingness of God to heal, physically, those who have the faith to believe.

Next, re: documentation of supernatural healing.

Since the Bible is not a complete historical compendium of planet earth, but rather a book of instruction for the believer, it is not going to house that which goes beyond the necessity of its instruction. It is already full of examples to follow anyway. One hundred more examples will not have any more effect upon a unbeliever, than the ones already there ( Luke 16: 19-31 ).

..but since you asked, here are a few things you might consider.
Have you ever read Foxes book of martyrs?, I believe that there are a number of instances there. How about the documentation from ministers John G. Lake &amp; Smith Wigglesworth, in our own century? How about the Catholic Churchs' method of saint canonization that requires 2 documented 'miracles' for 'sainthood' ? To say the the supernatural is non-existent, and that it never works, is to deny what the Bible teaches and promises, as well as to turn a deaf ear to realities that are not measurable, scientifically. So go measure a human spirit, and tell me if it exists, and how you can prove it does, or doesn't. What exactly is it anyway? And tell me, what is beyond deaths' gate? measure that for me, will you?

Oh, I can testify to God's supernatural healing myself. The first thing I asked God to heal, when I was saved back in 1977, was a number of warts that I had on my hands. there were several that were painful, being between the joints of my fingers. There were about 7 or 8 of them. I can't remember the exact number. I had had these warts for a number of years. They were still there 6 months later. One day, I was driving my car, and looking down at my hands on the steering wheel, they were totally gone, with no sign that they were ever there.

Big deal, you may say. Yes, everything is a big deal to God. That was an issue of faith, the same as any other thing. What's the difference between warts and anything else? Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed would move a mountain, didn't He?

Okay, then. My wife had an incurable blood illness that her doctor diagnosed through testing. She believed it to be the result of her disobedience to God, in stretching herself beyond her physical limitations, and abusing her body through too much work. She decided to repent, and do what she knew God wanted her to do. A month later, the doctor monitored her blood once more and found it to be completely normal, with no sign of the disease. There's your documented proof of something seriously life-threatening being healed.

There are still things that I am believing for, and that doctors couldn't heal anyway.

The way you perceive this, is that it is a deluded teaching from FA/HEF.

The way I perceive this is as an opportunity from God, that isn't offered by doctors and hospitals.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Then you and Duncan go on to disqualify Factnet as being a site that "is whatever it is to anybody" Whatever that is supposed to mean I dont know but when you go to their homepage, it clearly shows they are a site dedicated to exposing cults. Their mission states "We are to destructive cults, fundamentalism, mind control, and mental coercion/torture what Amnesty International is to physical torture" That doesnt appear to me to be just a site for general feel good blogging where people vent their frustrations their Homy and Duncan. You can google Freeman and see his name come up several time under cult catagories. I know you dont like to see that, but its the truth.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

So then, what you are saying is that although Factnet has a written directive, the reality of what it is, is actually much different, since it has become a dumping ground for anybody with a gripe about anyone.

Isn't that exactly what we are saying FA was? That what was taught and condoned was much different than what
individual people decided it was? I know of not a single person who was ever disciplined or thrown out because they went to a doctor, wore glasses or nikes, etc., etc., etc. Anyone who was ever disciplined was so for either heretical doctrinal reasons, or gross sin; as would have been the case with Angels' marauders and parents, had the leadership known.

[hombre]

As for googling HEF, I don't put the internets' authority above the Bible; and that is what we are/have been arguing here.
....The fact is that HEFs' theology was/is/will continue to be right on the money, Biblically speaking, not popularly.

If Google were around in the time of Christ, Jesus would no doubt have come up under 'cults', as well as the entire early church.

Now lets take a look at the ethics of 'Google'.

Mega-behemoth Google is buying up software concerns and redistributing them as 'freeware' to the dismay
and destruction of small business software developers. It is venturing into areas through its' massive capital outreach
while disabling others trying to do the same. It is accused of attempting to turn copyright laws upside down, by compiling
through outright theft, an online library of books, which they cover up by taking from online libraries like New York Public Library, whom they have cut deals with, without the consent of the original authors. It is described as the 'Online Giant that can make a small business or break it' *. Googles search engine, which is a complex and highly secretive algorithm, is altered occasionally without warning or explanation, yet alters dramatically the lives of those dependent upon the internet for sales. Google is paid by advertisers to feature them in prominence; however, ' Googles' stated goal of organizing all of the worlds' information is almost guaranteed to bring its' advertisers headaches: if Google has its' way, every word ever written and every image ever created will one day be catalogued on its' servers. From a business PR- perspective, that means good press will show up in search results. So will corporate scandal coverage, leaked proprietary information, bad product reviews, blogger rants, you name it. As the volume of searchable information swells, advertisers will increasingly find themselves in a bind. As night follows day, embarrassing content will pop up next to their ads.' *. Google is becoming the quintessential 21st century, abusive, imperialist techno-cartel. That they have tremendous business acumen and resources is indisputable, what is however, is their brand of ethics. That is enough for me to disqualify them as a viable resource for jurisprudence in ethical questions. What turns up in their searches is whatever turns up. That there are other sites that are critical toward FA/HEF is a big yawn.

* FORTUNE Small Business, Sept. 2006

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

The media only came after DEATHS began to surface. Deaths that could of been prevented. I mean what is the rest of the world supposed to do, allow this to continue? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You are absolutely correct; and to be perfectly fair, we should also immediately begin to prosecute every doctor and hospital when one of their patients dies. Let's see now, that would be, well I don't know...if you Google 'hospital deaths yearly', you come up with over 1 million result pages, that are categorized by disease. Why am I not seeing chain gangs composed of doctors and hospital administrators? Why am I not seeing outraged citizens demanding justice, and cursing their existence, with among other words, poltroons? Yes, WHY do WE allow this to continue?...and to top it off, if a person can't afford medical help, they are denied treatment. Gee, their ethics are WAY up there now, aren't they? I seem to remember a verse that God thought was important enough to include in His Eternal Word: ...and a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any....Luke 8:43.
Yeah, as it was then, so it is now. BTW, here's a good book for you to read:

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn/dp/0809241315/sr=1-1/qid=1168366113/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-8166882-7325218?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books

[healed]

Dang, you know thats the same book that Hobart quoted and my relative was always thumping when they got on that kick about how evil medicine was. Your still reading that? BTW, thats not a good book for me to read as I had to read it and i even had to get those relegious immunizations as well.

Thats a very weak arguement about the hospitals and doctors having mishaps ect, but straight out of FA so I expect nothing less. Its like comparing apples and oranges and ridiculous as all heck. You failed to point out that most of the deaths at FA, probally more than 80%, could of been prevented with simple medical treatments. The deaths at hospitals are mostly advanced injuries or diseases like automobile or cancer cases. This is no brainer stuff. I noticed you quoted Luke 8:43 but said nothing of Mathew 9: 12, 13. So the woman had spent all her living upon physicians. It doesnt say that she would perish in hell for it, it means the Saviour had come to prove to the world he was the son of God and this was another case to prove that. She wasnt punished for seeing the physicians, it doesnt say that. You should remove the blinders that Freeman put on you so you too can be truly healed as I am.

[mark1124]

Hey Healed.

You say that you are healed? LOL.

Answer me this...if going to the doctors and trusting in man is ok, then why do doctors take out medical malpractice insurance? Just in case they screw up and get sued. Isn't it funny that God doesn't need malpractice insurance. Trusting in Him will always be the safe way to get really healed. God does not make mistakes, does not screw up when it comes to healing because He is perfect. I don't know....I think I would rather trust in the Perfect One...the One who said that "I am the Lord that Healeth thee," rather than the doctor that healeth thee. Isn't it funny that James 5 did not say to call the doctor when you get sick but to call the elders of the church and let them anoint you with oil in the Name of the Lord and the prayer of faith, not the surgeon's knife, will heal the sick and the Lord (not medical science) will raise him up. I think I will go with the infallibe word of God and not the fallible word of man.

Thank God Hobart taught the truth. It's too bad that the devil stole the word out of your heart. Read Mark chapter 4 and see what I mean.

[healed]

Well once again our favorite brother Mark has responded with a statement that proves how dumb but faithful to Freeman he really is. You ask me the obvious no brainer question about medical malpractice insurance for hospitals which I wont even bother responding to, but you failed to mention the several lawsuits that were pending towards Freeman for his RESPONSIBILITY for the deaths of member of HIS congregation. I think before you go pointing out the wrongs of medical science, perhaps you should mention the wrongs of Freeman as well. I dont know about thanking God that Hobart taught the truth as you say, but I do thank God that he took him from this world before others could die.

[mark1124]

The reason that God took him home was because too many people lifted him up on a pedastal and exalted him. God will not share his glory with no man. Also, God took him home to see if the people were following a man or the God of the Bible. It was a sifting that God did. And as we canplainly see, many people were along for the ride. The Bible says "Smite the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered." Where all all the thousands of people following Freeman? Scattered.
Get over it Unhealed. God took him home, not to keep him from "killing" more people or for other erronious teachings, like you claim, but to see if the people really had faith in God to trust Him all the way. Looks like God accomplished His purpose. And look what happened...the people who left the work are in sin, adultery, and the denominational systems of man with no challenging word. Back to easy believism, where they are no longer challenged to live a separated life...people who want to live, look, dress and act like this stinking world. It proves that the pure word that was preached to them fell on bad soil.

Concerning medical science...I would rather trust God who makes no mistakes than to trust man who does. You can trust in your god if you like. I will take healing from God only all the way.

It is typical that you don't want to take the blame for your failures but to blame someone else. Typical Adam and Eve mentality.

Enough of wasting my time with words that you will not heed to. I suppose that if you get saved, you will join the cookies and coolaide marshmellow Christianity crowd that cannot overcome a hangnail. Typical mindset of those who are overcome by everything that comes their way.

So go blame Freeman or who you want for your failures. It wouldn't surprise me that you will start blaming God for your failures. After all, it was God's servant (Freeman) that taught about divine healing. Why don't you blame God for the deaths? After all, God gave Freeman the message, right out of the Bible.

Have fun thinking about that one.

[healed]

Well I didnt have fun thinking about it Mark but did have fun laughing at it. Its amazing how you and your comrades will find a way to justify everything that Freeman taught. You quoted the scripture about Jesus saying "Smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered." Jesus was refering to himself. So your saying Hobart was on the same level as Jesus? What about Matthew 24: 23, 24; "For there shall arise false Christs, and false PROPHETS, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The folks at FA were not following the bible, they were following a man, and after this man died, they had no one to lead them anymore. This isnt following Christ, this is allowing your mind to be controlled by a man. God didnt give Freeman the message as you say, Freeman took scripture and made his own message. I go back and read the bible for myself, and I can clearly see where Freeman took passages and made them into his own law. Only a fool like you would never doubt the legitimacy of Freemans words.

[mark1124]

He also said that griveous wolves would enter in and deceive the flock after he was gone. Look what happened. You know what happened. Griveous wolves did come in and deceived everyone at FA. The flock, as I alluded to, did get scattered. From 2,000 it is now down to 50. Freeman was right again, as usual.

And by the way, healed, you are right that the assembly followed a man. That is a rare time that I will agree with you. They did follow a man. They did not check things out according to scripture as they were supposed to according to Acts 17:11. They put Freeman on a pedastle (sp)
which was wrong.

And by the way...back to the blame game issue. I was wondering, healed. If you go before the judgment seat of Christ, are you or anyone else, for that matter, going to stand before the throne of God one day and tell the Lord that it was Hobart Freeman's fault that you as well as others couldn't make it in the end? Are you going to blame Freeman in from of Jesus about all of the things that happened at FA? I wish I could be there to watch your reaction when the Lord vindicates His servant Hobart Freeman in front of you. Wishful thinking on my part and a nice fantasy at that. But the thought was interesting.

Enough of this nonsense. And be careful about calling me a fool. What did Jesus say about calling someone a fool. I will give you a homework assignment. Look up what Jesus said about calling someone a fool. Read it in the Bible and not what anyone, even Freeman said about it. I hope it brings you to your knees in repentance.

[healed]

Well Im glad that you finally came to your senses.

[hombre]

Senses?

I think it's time for a topical search.


The Existence of God, is Without Need for Justification or Proof by Anyone.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ...
~ Romans 1:20

We Obtain From God, Through Faith, NOT by Our Senses.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
~ Heb. 11: 1

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
~ Heb. 11: 6

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


Faith is a Relationship and an Attitude of Devotion.

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
~ Prov. 21: 2


The Vision that God Wants Us to Have, is NOT One of the Five Senses.

Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
~ Prov. 29 : 18

[mark1124]

Healed, I didn't come to my senses. You can be decieved by your senses. Freeman was right doctrinally and that's that. It was up to the people to decide whether to obey they word of God or not. It was the people who made the church legalistic, not Freeman.

By the way, did you read what Jesus said about calling people fools? Or do you think that Freeman made that up with his interpretation of scripture, like you allude to.

[odysseus]

Mark, Freeman was deceived. He’s dead because of it. Deal with it!

Hombre, you type scripture here and type scripture there and still you can’t get your point across. This seems to be your style doesn’t it? Do you think you can just quote a lot of Bible verses which don’t pertain to the issue and everyone is impressed with you? You’re a fraud, Boy. Face it, you’re a counterfeit. But you also amuse us. I wish you could do a little dance along with your diatribe, it would be more entertaining.

Is this a congenital defect or are you just so full of ‘spiritual pride’ that you think you’re superior to all of us?

You sure like to confront Healed don’t you? Why don’t you leave him alone since you consigned him to Hell anyway? After all you and Lil’ Brother Mark don’t really care about him anyway.

You and Mark like the fact that you can call people ‘brat, idiot, moron, or fool’ and feel no remorse nor have to pay no price for saying it. However you get indignant when someone calls you something similar on your own controlled web blog. Well you’re just an empty vessel with nothing in it. In today’s parlance you would be called a big ‘gas bag’. I for one enjoy reading your mindless posts. I just wonder why you do it here and not back at your own website. Maybe it because no one goes there.

By the way, you need to quit wasting your employer’s time on the internet. I’m one of those kinds of employers that don’t appreciate catching my employees wasting time on the internet on my nickel. If you worked for me I’d fire you faster than you could say counterfeit

[hombre]

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
~ Prov. 14: 12

Re: your abusive patterns of communication.

I could waste my time by calling other people names, who I don't agree with, but , alas, that would be a waste of time, as well as unedifying.
Do you feel so threatened by me that you must lash out in anger and profanity, and seek to control the actions and even the thoughts of others??
I am a free man. I can go where I want to go, and do what I want to do, without your permission, or blessing. I'll be here as long as I feel like it.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away...... Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
~ 2 Tim. 3 : 1-9

Re: http://www.OvercomersOnline.com

Thanx as always for the free plug.
Anyone is welcome over there, including you, if you can promise to be civilized when you come.
Debate is fine, but I am not descending into that slime pit that you call discourse.

Re: not being able to understand what I am saying:

The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
~ Matt 13 : 1-15

Re: Employment

..still seeking to control me, I see.

BTW: I am self-employed.

[mark1124]

Odie,

The only people that are deceived are you, healed, and anyone that comes against the anointed teaching the HEF taught. You say that he is deceived because you cannot pay the cost of getting into the word like he did. You sat under the word and you left it. Who is deceived?
I chose you. God gave yttou up to a reprobate mind. Get over it and repent. Quit blaming Freeman for your moral failures.

[healed]

Well Mark isnt the sharpest tool from the FA whack shack and he relies on Hombre for back up but its all good because its all coming from the same thing; theres nothing original that challenges what Freeman taught. At least Mark is straight about it, at least he will tell you that Freeman was the only annointed one. Hombre, Duncan, and Tomax are on both sides of the fence.

[mark1124]

Well since I have the Holy Spirit residing in me, and I am able to discern things from a spiritual standpoint, I can tell if a ministry if scriptural or not. I know my Bible and if I hear something that is not scriptural, the Holy Spirit reminds me if a teaching or minsitry is off.

So thank you for the compliment. The Holy Spirit witnesses to me the Freeman was in line with scripture on everything that he preached. I can't help it if everyone else discerns things with the natural mind, which by the way, cannot discern the things of the Spirit, as the scripture teaches. These things are spiritually discerned. Anyone can take what they hear, from Freeman or whoever, and should be able to discern them, if they are sensitive to the Holy Spirit. If I hear anything that is not in line with Scripture, I will challenge it. So far, Freeman is right on line.

[odysseus]

Hombre, actually you’re easy to control; you just don’t realize it yet.

Mark, you don’t have the discernment you think you do. I think your discernment train jumped the tracks years ago.

Mark please read this and try to understand: HOBART FREEMAN IS DEAD! His so called 5 fold ministers are gone, scattered to the four winds. God’s judged this ministry and found it wanting. Ichabod! Faith Assembly is no longer, Ichabod!. The sad thing is you can’t figure out why.

I don’t have any ‘moral’ failures as you say, Mark. I’m a faithful husband, good father, plus a pretty neat granddad. I don’t use drugs, smoke or abuse alcohol. I don’t go to pornographic web sites like I’ve read you’ve have been accused of. My mind isn’t reprobate. If I was you I’d stay away from those web sites, you’ll lose your anointing if you continue to go there.

I own a small but pretty successful business as well. What really ticks you guys off is I’m not afraid of you so called ‘anointed’ overcomers. Plus I’m not afraid of your ‘anointed’ dead prophet Hobart.

Being deceived and scripturally ignorant is no way to go through life Mark. But you’re entertaining, I’ll give you that

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You’re a fraud, Boy.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Odyseuss, I have been pondering this derogatory term for a while now since you first used it.

I have come to several conclusions.

1. I am convinced that you are desperately seeking justification and recognition in parental or leadership status. That would assume that you also suffer from severe problems with inadequacy and insecurity. The first step toward resolving these conditions is to recognize that they do indeed exist. The next step would be finding where it began, in order to understand it and put it into context, so that you can move on.

2. I am going to throw out an educated guess, and assume that your father used to discipline you and use the word 'boy' when he did. Putting that together with your FA background that you assume to be a totally deceived and backwards thinking organization, it seems odd that you would fall back into the very terminology that has its' origins from a time in your life that you eschew. But that is often the case with children who have been abused by their parents. they grow up to be just like them.

3. Being forcefully relegated to a subservient status as a child, while disagreeing with your role, has created, this yearning for acceptance, to be heard and counted, while at the same time, a need to dominate including the attempt to suppress others voices through whatever means are necessary, which often includes for you, the usage of profanity and derogatory name-calling.

I think that in order for you to maintain a rational conversation, without the use of inflamed expletives, will require the recognition of these things, and a determined effort on your part to become a better person, regardless of the examples that you have experienced in your personal life.

May God richly bless you in your efforts to overcome Satan, yourself, and your flesh. This will require an act of faith on your part, which you can learn by reading your Bible. I suggest starting with the Gospels, then on to Acts, and Pauls' letter to the Hebrews, to get an understanding about this fundamental aspect of Christianity.

If you need someone to pray with you, please don't hesistate to ask for help.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[odysseus]

YES HOMRE, IT’S SO TRUE. PLEASE HELP ME!

You’re revealing something about yourself that you actually hate in me.

You’re an ‘overcomer? Naw don’t think so.

Don’t try armchair analysis without the proper education.

(Message edited by odysseus on January 17, 2007)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

You’re revealing something about yourself that you actually hate in me.

Don’t try armchair analysis without the proper education. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Huh... does that go for you too?

[odysseus]

Ooooh, good comeback!

Go back and re-read my post #44. About 4 post's back, first line.

Nope, nothin’ about you is even close to being an ‘overcomer’ you’ve been overcome by your spiritual pride. You are a fraud.

However Mark1124 is more entertaining than you are.

[hombre]

...so what you're saying through your footnote reference to your own post ( hey thanks, you know we're all out here collecting every byte of your profane brand of wisdom ) is that you believe that you are controlling me, by my responses to your insults. That would be a clever way to discourage me from posting in order to prove you wrong; however, my purpose in addressing your issues is not individually based, but of general interest to all who either share your condition ( See my above posting # 245 for reference ) or need tools to address the issues of those like you. What you do with the help that I've offered you, is really up to you. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[odysseus]

You’re having a problem with what I said?

[mark1124]

You know "Odor", I appreciate the comment that I am entertaining. Well, have some more entertainment...on the house.

Faith Assembly may be dead. But the message is still alive. You can deny it all you want but it is still there. It is called the BIBLE. And that's what HEF taught. And not his interpretation of it, as your tag team partner Healed misleads us into thinking.

Yes, I have been accused of going to pornographic sites. If you consider a Three Stooges chat room a pornographic site. I certainly hope that you would have sense enough to believe the best in me and not listen to the Factnet prophet lie about me. That's ok. I have been accused of a lot of false things. That's fine. Those are the things that God uses to crucify me. That's fine with me. I've been accused by my family of something which never happened as well. They believed a lie about me. And God vindicated me from it, praise God. So with everything that everyone tries to accuse me of, including the factnet prophet's accusation that I called Bill Clinton gay, or that I wished death upon him, or that I said that Jesus died for me and not for him, and going to a porno site. None of that moves me because I know the truth and God does too and He knows that I did not do all of these things.

And by the way "Odor", I am not the deceived one. You are. I am staying with the word. I am not going to a "normal" church where we are no longer challenged by the demands of our Lord.

Yes, HEF is dead. So are people like Smith Wigglesworth, AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, and many of the other men of God that were used. They are dead...but the words that they spoke live on and are still changing lives today.

[odysseus]

Odor?...Odor?

My goodness Mark try to be original for once, you’re embarrassing...

What’s with this? Oh ok, I know, you’re doing an ‘anointed dissing’ of me.

It’s hilarious, you and Hombre accuse me of name calling and you do just the same. However it’s ok for you folks because your God’s anointed, is that it?

Sorry folks, no overcomers on this site. Let’s move on and look somewhere else. Maybe at the tomb of Elvis.

[hombre]

Nonchalant denial.

You're insecurity is showing.

We don't play by your rules, Odysseus, because we don't answer to you. If you want to debate Christianity with some real substance behind what you have to say, we are here. We are also here when you decide to deride the truth, because you're viewpoint is not the only one.

No, we're not following you, Odysseus.

We ( I ), have dealt with this issue at length before anyway. there is precedent in the scriptures for calling a dog a dog. There is not, however, precedent for lowering oneself to the point of profanity in describing ones' adversaries. This I have not done, neither has Mark.

The Bible describes a 'fool' as someone who denies the existence of God. It also tells us to turn away from those who have a 'form of godliness' but 'deny the power', which is exactly what you and your confederates do. Jesus called the Pharisees 'serpents' and 'whited sepulchres full of dead mens bones', among other things; that did not make Him a sinner, because He told the truth.

Telling you what you are, or have allowed yourself to become, is not un-Christian, it is an act of kindness, that you cannot grasp, due to your extreme prejudice.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. ~ Prov. 27: 6

Now it's time to dissect another post of yours.


<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I don’t have any ‘moral’ failures as you say, Mark. I’m a faithful husband, good father, plus a pretty neat granddad. I don’t use drugs, smoke or abuse alcohol. I don’t go to pornographic web sites like I’ve read you’ve have been accused of. My mind isn’t reprobate. If I was you I’d stay away from those web sites, you’ll lose your anointing if you continue to go there. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...so you're counting on your own righteousness then?
....how does that proverb go?......
...pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. ~ Prov. 16 : 18

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I own a small but pretty successful business as well. What really ticks you guys off is I’m not afraid of you so called ‘anointed’ overcomers. Plus I’m not afraid of your ‘anointed’ dead prophet Hobart.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

So what.

And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
~ Luke 12 :15-21

...yet another definition of a fool.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Being deceived and scripturally ignorant is no way to go through life Mark. But you’re entertaining, I’ll give you that<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

The pride and condescension are absolutely rolling off you.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
~ Matt. 5: 5

...I believe that would be: overcomers

Show us your Christianity by your fruit, not by these nasty rotten apples you keep serving up.

[mark1124]

And the nasty rotten apples that Odie keeps serving up are starting to stink. Hence the name "Odor". http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Time to get ready for me to listen to another tape of the anointed dead man.

Hey Reuben, you said that Freeman is dead, right?
That's true. Should we stop listening to his tapes because he is dead? Should we abandon his teachings because he is dead? If you want to follow that logic, then stop reading the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Stop reading Paul's epistles. They're dead men and we should not follow their teachings either.

And it is not a good thing to boast of your good works like you did in your last communication with me. After all, it is not the crucified life as taught by Jesus Christ. After all, that's what HEF taught...the crucified life as taught by my Lord Jesus Christ.

Have a nice day.

[healed]

Well well. I think that mark and hombre are showing weaknesses in their armor. Didnt Jesus say to turn the other cheek? I see nothing but defenses. It would seem that your more worldly than you proclaim to be. I see a mean side that I often witnessed growing up. Those who werent in agreement with all things Freeman were to be chastised and/or beaten.

[mark1124]

And you should know about worldliness, right healed? You live it every day.

[root]

You guys are wonderful! All this time, I have been wasting my efforts and the discernment given by the Spirit on trying to reach the lost, whether nearby or in other countries; doing so to obey Jesus' plain, prescriptive command to fulfill the Great Commission. Whoops! Thats the kind of thing "normal" churches filled with dead, outward focused psuedo-believers do.
As I have now come to realize through the preceding posts, Since God either elects someone or not, then it is not my responsibility to try to reach them. Much like voting is a sin because I might vote against the leader that God ultimately places in power, witnessing, even to someone you think needs Christ is equally presumptuous, as God may never intend for them to receive his salvation.

Furthermore, I have learned that the Holy Spirit discernment is much better used in helping my Christian brother with his "log" so he can then confirm that I don't have any "motes". The best part is that because I have the Spirit, judging others is ok now, even required, (PTL!) since my personal revelations regarding other's hurts, needs, motives and wants is no longer an emotional response rooted in my flesh but God's own righteous indignation, given voice by me, His prophetic mouthpiece! Hallelujah!!

God is grieved that most Christians have never heard of Deeper Life in the Spirit, and are busy trying to reach those that He has already condemned to hell. They could instead be privy to the wealth of discernment and knowledge that comes from a life dedicated to the interception of every common deception that seems to overtake my brothers and sisters in Christ.

To begin, I want to respond as I am learning is the Spirit-led way in this thread-

Healed- you are an unsaved fool, and therefore have nothing to say that can affect me...unless you agree with me. Too bad you can't be saved like me and have the discernment necessary to make "righteous" judgements!

Odorsuess- since you are a Christian and make logical points, I change the spelling of your name so that I can mock you and destroy your credibility! And you continue to make logical points while inflaming me by saying I'm "easy to control". Boy are you deceived!

Hombre- I can't argue with you because you don't ever listen, you are too busy "overcoming" and allowing the Spirit to channel your righteous indignation into a compelling response to confound us with brilliance. Thanks for caring enough to condescend every now and again with an offer to pray for us if we are just attacking you out of bitterness or hurt. That really touches our heart. I bet your wife and kids (if you have them) would melt in the middle of their sinful questioning of your authority when you use that tactic!

Mark- everything that applies to Hombre applies to you! God (sorry lord) has given me the right to pass judgement on you both!

Duncan- for some reason you don't ascend to the name calling, so we won't bother to respond in kind. Most would think you to be respectful if we didn't know better!

[root]

Really guys, I hope I succeeded in making my point. No offense to you guys, but if you claim to be Spirit-filled believers, then why are you so harsh to each other? You mock and scorn each other more than trash-talking sports fans, and we are on the same team! It reminds me of the kind of attitude and rhetoric that caused so many rifts in the "faith movement" for the last 20 years. You all are participants. Can we at least agree that we share the same basic tenets of doctrine regarding salvation, and treat each other with respect. In fact, I'll be bold and say, even if someone such as healed does not profess christianity, he is created in God's image and deserves to be treated as a person, not a second-class human being.

You guys make a mockery of yourselves by your own behaviors.

[mark1124]

Root, I appreciate your comments but because Hombre and I are right, you pass judgment of us, in the guise of the Lord. That's ok. I am not bothered by it. I appreciate your concerns though and in spite of you passing judgment on me and Hombre, I just want to say that I want to bless you in the name of the Lord.

Thank you once again for your concern.

[hombre]

Root, we're NOT on the same team....that would also include you.

BTW: don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, over your fulfillment of Jesus' 'Great Commission' and your prevailing righteousness.

The whole 'Great Commission' concept by the Evangelicals is generally just another excuse to drain the laity's wallets, and stay busy doing nothing in particular that would pertain to the rest of what Jesus taught. Tell us instead, how you are fulfilling Mark 16, or rather dismissing it. ...A favorite quote by HEF: You need to BE before you can DO. Show me the proof and truth of your ministry by the signs that Jesus said would follow those who believe. That is what caused the multitudes to follow; and what turned them back was the cost. In the latter days ( in which time we are living ), Jesus said that FEW would be saved. he also talked about being ready for His return, because He would come as a thief in the night. Understanding those two things should tell you that it is time to mature, not frantically run around a globe already saturated with Gideon Bibles. Jesus is perhaps the most recognizable name in history and around the world already. You as well as the rest of the Evangelical circle confuse the church with a welfare organization, instead of the light on a hill, reproving sin, and preaching THE FAITH once delivered to the saints.... using one verse as an excuse to get busy avoiding the rest.

BTW: I'm passing judgement on you too, for being guilty of the very things you accuse everyone here of doing.

Oh...and yes, Healed....how could I ignore you?

You basically channel demonic spirits whenever you open your mouth.
You need deliverance. We pray for you, yet war with the spirits that you allow.
Too primitive for you?....how about you, Pharisee Root?

...a brief look back at Odysseus' posts will show his collapse under their influence.
...and why, I wonder has he changed his name so much? why would one do that?
..is there an identity crisis, or a problem with multiple personalities ( read SPIRITS ) ?
...I am beginning to think that his female friend from Ohio, may just be another manifestation
of Odysseus' alter egos, since he is so protective of her.

Shield up. Sword out. Helmet, Breastplate on.

PS: Sir Galahad ( read ROOT ), if you're up to it, you'll find far more interesting content at

http://www.overcomersonline.com

...than you will here.

[mark1124]

Hombre is right. I need to start posting at the overcomers site. I have something very interesting to post there...I'll give you a hint...It might be called, "The Fallacy of the Blame Game Trap."

At least you won't be reading the garbage from Reuben over there. He has been banned.

Cheers.

Oh BTW...Hombre...nice post

[hombre]

Rueben?

...OH!!!

AKA 'Israels' Son'

AKA 'Odysseus'

[odysseus]

Just like I said Hombre, “you’re so easily controlled”.

In the last 24 hours I pushed your buttons and you danced just like I said you would. Unfortunately Hombre, you’re still boring us. Sorry Boy your act is getting old.

But you know I still get a kick out of Mark1124. Probably because he lacks simple common sense and he makes me laugh due to it. I hope he’s staying away from those pornographic websites like I told him to do yesterday.

Hombre I don’t know if it’s a lack of intellect or just too much of your spiritual pride which is your problem. Unfortunately you just seem to can’t get me laughing anymore, so I’m getting bored with you.

You need to work on your routine. Spend some time watching Henny Youngman or Rodney Dangerfield; they are masters of comedic timing. Oh and another thing. Quit taking yourself so seriously, no one else does. Ask your ex-wife.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Just like I said Hombre, “you’re so easily controlled”.

In the last 24 hours I pushed your buttons and you danced just like I said you would. Unfortunately Hombre, you’re still boring us. Sorry Boy your act is getting old. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thanks for the typically shallow marionette response.

[odysseus]

Now dance for me.

[mark1124]

Hey Reuben,

Why don't you check up on me and condemn me like Michael Markley has. You know...the false prophet that said that as a tree near the water will dry up, so will I. Ha ha ha. You and Markley aught to join the circus. Hombre and I would love to see the clowns perform. If I said what I thought of saying, I would have to repent, and I wouldn't want Markley to condemn me on his sinful chat room on Paltalk. Unhealed can be the ringmaster.

As far as me not having common sense...I don't need common sense when I have the wisdom of God residing in me. You ought to try to use it sometime. Maybe you will make sense for a change and stop blaming Freeman for everything that happened. If there was a tornado in your area, and your house was destroyed by it, would you blame Freeman for the tornado? That's sounds ludicrous doesn't it. So is blaming Freeman for everything from the deaths to the legalism to people falling into sin and into crime, fornication and divorces. What is the next thing that you are going to blame Freeman for? The only reason why you and others blame Freeman for everything is because you hate him because he preached a message that you could not handle.

You must be enjoying your church now that you have no challenging message that can change your dreary life. No consecration, no demands, easy believism, no cross, no persecution, acting and living like the world. Doing your own thing.
Now I know that the message that Freeman taught never sunk in to you. You have rejected the word that can change your life, and you will get into the kingdom by the skin of your teeth. Unless, you are not a real disciple of Jesus, which, in this case, you have no hope.



(Message edited by mark1124 on January 18, 2007)

(Message edited by mark1124 on January 18, 2007)

[mark1124]

Reuben,

I think you should get out of that "normal" church when you are not challenged by scripture and get away from that milk toast, cookie cutter, marshmellow Christianity type church, you know, that produces nominal Christians and get into a true Bible believing church that can challenge you and to cleanse you of your sinful ways. There is still hope for you. We won't get into what Unhealed should do

(Message edited by mark1124 on January 18, 2007)

[healed]

Now what is this?

"Healed- you are an unsaved fool, and therefore have nothing to say that can affect me...unless you agree with me. Too bad you can't be saved like me and have the discernment necessary to make "righteous" judgements"

Why cant I be saved like you? Im not worthy..because I dont accept the FA message of hopelessness and despair? And now you have the power of judgement? And who decided this? Some voice in your head while you was on crystal meth? Im sorry but what else could inspire you to type such a ridiculous post? Just what is a "righteous judgement?" Im not judging anyone, Im defending my position with rational responses. I guess it takes all kinds to make it work, your a new addition to our mix here.

[root]

Healed, that was a satire on the way each of you is treated by the others. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough about it. I do not think that of you myself, only commenting on how others belittle you due to your honesty about where you are coming from. You others that responded to my satire, forgive me for being so brutal. I was trying to use the very same insults that others have used against you, to make my point, not beat you up myself. Please read my post (#3) to see the point I was attempting to make.

For those of us who stumble onto this forum, if we filter out the "christianese", then you guys all sound the same, at least to me. Can someone have the moral/religious/ethical high ground in a debate merely by saying they have it, or by claiming to be more mature in their faith? Your attitudes and actions whether in person or online will quickly reveal to others whether you are humble or proud, spirit led or flesh controlled. In some posts I have seen things to respect about each one of you, but it is overshadowed by the general nature of the rest of your posts. I know that I am an outsider, but to some of you, an outside observation just might be a bit of a wakeup call. Again, please don't take the insults in post #2 personally, they do not to reflect my beliefs about you, but my concern about the general attitudes here.
In retrospect, I myself in the limited time I have posted on this forum have already created misunderstanding about my attitudes and where I'm coming from. I realize it takes a lot of care to put your thoughts down in a way that people understand your heart. Can we all try harder? I plan to.

[hombre]

Root,

You're sounding a lot like me, when I first found this site. You too, will learn quickly, that being big-hearted and generous in your forgiveness will earn you disparagement, and the assumption that everyone here is a 'good guy' is not at all the reality. If you want to know any of us here, you need to go back through the entirety of the postings, by each of us. That is a long process, but it will be very revealing.

Each of us is adament in our own opinions, and none of us are willing to change. Sooner or later, you'll pick sides, and choose to go with Healeds' humanistic and unsaved way, Odysseus' foul-mouthed and acidic viewpoint of all things FA and HEF, or take a thoughful look backwards, and recognize what was Bible, and what was HEFs' personal feelings, and what that means for our lives.

As far as trying to actually have a learned, or even a rational discussion here consisting of subject matter other than a continual downpouring of criticism, forget it. It ain't gonna happen.

If you want to do that; again, my suggestion is:

http://www.overcomersonline.com

We are interested in discussing opinions and ideas, without the name calling and childish displays of ignorance one finds here daily.

[odysseus]

It’s interesting how Hombre had to interject language in his response back to ‘Root’ that was insulting towards his detractors, (myself and healed to be specific).

Call yourself an overcomer Hombre? Call your self and ‘end time spirit filled’ believer? Goodness gracious, no one here thinks so, except Mark1124 and he needs counseling, badly.

I stand by my statement that you are a fraud. You’re just a bitter callous little man that is getting more boring by the day. You want to call that statement ‘acidic’ then go ahead; you’ve called me worse, much worse. You are one of the worse craven cowards (poltroons) I’ve run across in some time.

You’re a bad little boy that needs a good spanking. Its spanking’ time HOMBRE!

I still can’t get over that name you gave yourself, what is it? You like leather chaps or gladiator movies?

[healed]

Enlightened brother Hombre says:

"As far as trying to actually have a learned, or even a rational discussion here consisting of subject matter other than a continual downpouring of criticism, forget it. It ain't gonna happen".

No, what you mean to say is that if you want to find a site that is supportive of all things FA, it aint here. This site is for criticism, for closure, for many things but its not a forum to come and have fellowship and talk about the Freeman message on tapes. Root will surely find good company over at overcomersonline as he/she seems to be of the same mental caliber as those folks over there.

[barn_kid]

Are you grown men ever embarrassed by the childish pseudo intellectual arguments you have on this site. I mean seriously. I just read this crap and shake my head in amazement. There are people who actually have some pain here - whether they are Faith Assembly related or whether they would be damaged individuals whether they'd even heard of Faith Assembly or not is something we can't assume, but goodness, the message that you guys are trying to get across to the ones you perceive to be "screw ups" "morons" or lost, is really lost in your delivery.

I know I've made a few comments myself in the heat of the moment in the few occasions I came here, and after being away for awhile and coming back to catch up on things...........well, you sound really ridiculous. To be honest, sounds like people need to find another, uh, outlet for their "frustrations" because the arguing going on here is embarrassing and beneath you.

[barn_kid]

Are you grown men ever embarrassed by the childish pseudo intellectual arguments you have on this site? I mean that seriously. I just read this crap and shake my head in amazement. There are people who actually have some pain here - whether they are Faith Assembly related or whether they would be damaged individuals whether they'd even heard of Faith Assembly or not is something we can't assume, but goodness, the message that you guys are trying to get across to the ones you perceive to be "screw ups" "morons" or lost, is really lost in your delivery.

I know I've made a few comments myself in the heat of the moment in the few occasions I came here, and after being away for awhile and coming back to catch up on things...........well, you sound really ridiculous. To be honest, sounds like people need to find another, uh, outlet for their "frustrations" because the arguing going on here is embarrassing and beneath you.

[healed]

You aint no better than the rest of us barn kid so dont even try it. If this is the only venue for us who hate all things FA to vent in, then so be it.

[lux]

from http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/CO0490AB.TXT

"Faith Healing in Court

3 Faith Assembly Indictments, Acquittal

A Hamilton, OH, couple, Robin and Roberta Woodrum, were indicted
in May for relying on prayer rather than medical care in the
treatment of the pneumonia of their infant son, who died from
the condition. The death is the 103rd such connected with the
religious sect. News-Sentinel (Ft. Wayne, IN), 5/15/90, 1,
7.

Meanwhile, Faith Assembly parents Michael and Diane Ricks, of
rural Noble County, were charged with reckless homicide when
their infant son died without medical care of treatable bacterial
meningitis. News-Sentinel (6/25/90, 1, 5).

And on June 22, Faith Assembly members Gary and Rachel Carlton
were found innocent of reckless homicide for failing to get
medical help for their son, who died nine hours after birth
at the couple's home. They said that they had planned to have
a midwife present for the birth of the child but that it came
earlier than planned. Ft. News-Sentinel, 6/22/90, 22."

well... my brother didn't make it, so he's doing alright... or maybe he was a faithless, sinful infidel and is burning in hell for eternity... i guess that's something for the fanatics to debate.

[healed]

Yeah but Hombre and the others will tell us that the number 103 is insignificant, because afterall, so many die at the hands of doctors everyday. What these sad lost people dont mention is the fact that these infants died of 100% treatable and curable sickness. It was just a matter of getting treated. I wasnt somebody that died on the operating table, which does happen all the time, these were new souls into this world, not some old timer ate up with cancer.

[mark1124]

You know, it will be a good thing that this site may be closing down soon. Perhaps God is shutting it down so that nobody like Healed or others will have a place to speak evil of His anointed servant Hobart Freeman anymore. I wonder where these people who write such things will begin posting now? Oh well.

[lux]

This is slightly off topic, but by reading between the lines you'll have a pretty good idea of how this FA kid is doing.

healed: I couldn't care much less about what Hombre and the others tell us... My impression of them (from reading thru this forum) is quite poor. I respect religious conviction; however, having 'lived the life' I am struck by how far the majority of the forum members who claim to be believers have strayed off the path. All I have seen here is petty bickering and "greater than thou" attitudes. I don't think the type of bickering I've seen in this forum serves any useful purpose. It isn't ministry, it isn't outreach, and it surely does not glorify god.

When I stumbled across this site, I was surprised to see that FA had such a wide reach. I was also surprised to see that there were other 'FA kids' out there who had to overcome challenges similar to mine as we struggled to find our way thru the destructive wake of this faith movement. I was even more surprised to see the behaviour of these so-called 'believers'.

mark1124: perhaps your god is stepping in to protect his (relatively) insignificant servant hobart's legacy... Or... could it be that by shutting down this site 'he' would be freeing up a lot of your time... time spent defending the legacy of a MAN whose time is long past?

[mark1124]

Well Lux, perhaps the shutting down of this site would mean more time devoting my time studying the real word of God, as compared to what you study, rather than writing back at people like you.

Remember, Brother Freeman may be long gone. But the word that God brought forth through this vessel still remains...whether you believe it or not. You and I and everyone else who sat under the word preached by this man of God are responsible for what we have heard, whether we like it or not. I for one will not be one that the devil will try take the word out of my heart which was sown (Mark 4). I know better than to let go of something that has totally set me free.
What you do with it is up to you and everyone else.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

LUX: I couldn't care much less about what Hombre and the others tell us... My impression of them (from reading thru this forum) is quite poor. I respect religious conviction; however, having 'lived the life' I am struck by how far the majority of the forum members who claim to be believers have strayed off the path.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Lux, your light is dim, and my impression of you, at this point, matches yours of me; however, you bring up a point that bears interest and is worthy of a response. That question being: Whose path are you talking about here? It seems interesting to me, that you and others of your ilk, Odysseus and Healed in particular, want to chain me to a system of beliefs that are defined by your understanding of what the Faith message never was, but nevertheless you insist, was. The problem isn't the message; the problem was the peer pressure that was created by those who either didn't understand it, or who were not ready for it. You have defined yourself as one of those, by attempting to brand me as a hypocrite who doesn't adhere to your legalistic viewpoint.

I am free, not only in Christ, but within myself, to choose the path I desire to walk in. I know when my faith will carry me, and I know when I have doubt. I have attempted for 2 years now, to help others to understand the difference for themselves, and to release those who are bound by legalistic, religious dogma and personal guilt trips to shed their shackles and renew their love relationship with Christ as their primary goal.

Nevertheless, faith is what sustains a believer, and is the primary method of attaining fellowship with God, without which, it is impossible.

Your denunciation of me, clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding or thoughtfulness and research of the material that I have provided, here and at www.OvercomersOnline.com (http://www.OvercomersOnline.com) .

RE: Your brother. I am sorry for your loss. May God help you to understand, accept, forgive, and move forward in Him.

[dmn]

Many of you, especially the first post on this thread, are never going to solve your problem because you are putting the blame for your behavior on someone else. It is absolutely ludicrous to blame a church for you going into a trashy life style. You chose that direction. No one else and until YOU take accountablility for your own actions you will never change.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

DMN: Many of you, especially the first post on this thread, are never going to solve your problem because you are putting the blame for your behavior on someone else.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...perhaps you've read a few of my postings?

I've been saying that for many years now. Not just here, but elsewhere. It's the same blame game that has been going on since Adam blamed Eve for his own choices, and of course, Eve blamed the serpent. Back in Harry Trumans' day, he had a sign on his desk that read: ' The buck stops here!'. Buck passing has always been a way to attempt to escape personal responsibility. The offspring of 'the greatest generation' ( i.e.: the 'baby boomers' ), found solace in blaming their parents for the ills of the world, and attempted to fix it through drugs, sex and rock and roll. Now, they are the ones in therapy with the world on their shoulders and a far worse social record ( divorce, abortion, the break up of the family unit, the feminization of America, the acceptance of sexual deviancies as 'normal' ) than their parents could have conceived of in the 60s'.

...all of those and more, are products of a self-centered life, rather than a Christ-centered life. One which seeks its' welfare ahead of others and at the cost of others.

...but I have been preaching that for a long time.

....those who cannot let go, and move on, are destined to live in the past, and allow their personal spiritual and psychological growth to become dwarfed.

I also think however, that the 'faith assembly kid', though a buck-passer, is trying to reconcile his religious experience at FA, in a upfront way, not attempting to hide his obvious debauchery, and recognizing that as he is growing older, his attitudes are beginning to change. We may find that 5 or 10 years from now, the 'FA Kid', may do a complete about face.

Stranger things have happened, including the life story of the guy that wrote most of the New Testament.

[healed]

Hombro says:
"The problem isn't the message; the problem was the peer pressure that was created by those who either didn't understand it, or who were not ready for it. You have defined yourself as one of those, by attempting to brand me as a hypocrite who doesn't adhere to your legalistic viewpoint".
Nice! So why didnt the almighty Freeman step in and do something about it? Your blaming deaths on legalism? Thats what we are addressing here Hombro, deaths and abuse. If you and other elitist in the Freeman camp were so enlightened that you knew that all this was just being twisted and bent, then why didnt the elitist leadership do something?

And check out the lattest addition to the wacked club, dmn:

"It is absolutely ludicrous to blame a church for you going into a trashy life style"

Thats interesting, and it sounds like your a diehard Freemanite. Well at least a few of them are still around. So when Moulder sports his glasses and Hombre tells us he watches TV, should they be excused? Is there certian degrees to this trashy lifestyle or are you refering to those of us who were denied basic freedoms and indulged in things out of ignorance? Please do elaborate.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED.... If you and other elitist in the Freeman camp were so enlightened that you knew that all this was just being twisted and bent, then why didnt the elitist leadership do something? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, Healed, since you were just a kid, and probably weren't listening, but that is exactly what happened, week after week after week. Admonishments from the puplit, through prophecy and other gifts that the people weren't either 'getting' the message, or they weren't obeying what they knew.

It's there. Go back and listen to the tapes. You'll find it...over and over again.

In addition, I'll leave you with two pieces of information that I think are helpful in understanding FA.

1. People who had great faith in the Bible got sick and/or died of various diseases. Their 'faith' didn't always heal them for one reason or another.

2. At FA, IMO, 'faith' became an insurmountable objective, that people sought out, in deference to their relationship with God Himself, which is the reason for it's downfall. Hobart continuously stressed the importance of 'faith', and people, began to see 'faith' as this sort of abstract concept that they needed to, but somehow, could not quite grasp ahold of, and in so not attaining unto what they thought they needed to, they couldn't/didn't receive what they thought they could/should. The answer was/is in turning ones' attention toward Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith....in short, I am saying that their faith was in their faith, not in Jesus, nor as a result of their personal relationship with Him.

I don't personally accept the notion that the 'faith message' is wrong, but I do recognize that it's application by some was either flawed or misdirected.

It is difficult to accept the fact that either you yourself, or one of your loved ones' suffered or caused suffering to others through their ignorance of lack of understanding, but there really is nothing that can be done about it now, except to forgive, try to understand ( as I have been attempting to impart now for some time ) and move on toward you own personal calling in Christ.

[passin_thru]

Hombre, just as you say Healed and others haven’t moved on, the same can be said of you and those on your side of the fence.

The spiritual pride, suffering and death weren’t just some misguided interpretation. Hobart Freeman’s theology was the catalyst that caused it. People didn’t misunderstand him one iota. They adhered to every word that dripped from their prophet’s lips. He also never lifted a finger in love and compassion to stop the carnage. He was first and foremost to blame. If Freeman were absolved from all accountability, then no leader is ever responsible for what they do. The remaining loyal few just can’t grasp it. They still put him on some sort of holy pedestal.

There are some scars that never fully heal. It doesn’t mean people haven’t moved on or can’t cope. However, it may mean they want their story and voice to be heard. Why should they be denied (pro or con)?

To me, Healed and others are saying, FA was a cult. Yet, after all this time, there are still a few who think Hobart Freeman was some kind of ‘prophet of God’. Before and since the time of Freeman, there have been other false prophets; all too eager for the faithful to put their children on the sacrificial alter. Beware!

[healed]

Passin put out a better response than I could. I dont know who this Hombro clown thinks he is fooling, but it sure aint me. There was NEVER any message in the tapes about seeking medical attention. Sure, he might of alluded to something about if you dont have the faith, then you should go to the doctor, but if you did, you were banned from the group! What a load Hombro, you can do better than that.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:....Hobart Freeman’s theology was the catalyst that caused it..... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

..I'd like to agree with you, but, 'Hobarts' theology' is the theology of the Bible. Problem is, no one wants to blame God for what He said. I suggest that people start there. If you have a problem, with Mark 11:24, or John 14:12, or James 5:14, or Psalm 103:3, or any of the other myriad of supporting scriptures. Take it up with God. Throw away the book that has caused so much of your trouble. What's the problem? Go live your life out the way you want...eat, drink, be merry, etc., etc., etc. I would. I wouldn't waste one more second of my only life to follow a religion that couldn't produce what it says it can. Why believe John 3:16 if you can't believe James 5? So then, to me the answer is perfectly clear, either get rid of the book altogether and quit playing some childish game of religion, or begin to question God, and search His word with the purpose of understanding Him and His depth. We are complicated beings, my friends, how much more so, the One who has created billions of us and watches our every action, word and thought, simultaneously, then directs our lives to receive what we have sown. God cannot be so easily tossed away as to think that one can disable His word by blaming it on a vessel. It says what it says, and there are as many reasons as to why someone doesn't 'receive' what they think they should, as there are stars in the universe. The bottom line comes down to whether one maintains a daily relationship with the risen Christ or not, and whether they even believe that to be something possible, attainable or real.

Perhaps those who don't like the idea of personal responsibility toward God, but enjoy playing church, should take a look at Catholicism. It's got some real benefits. It places the responsibility on the priest, and all you really have to do is confess your sins every now and then and count some beads.

...I could be wrong, but I see that pattern in the evangelical churches today. Get active in your church. Buy your salvation. Reach out to others. Personal development is measured in the number of converts that you aquire to help support the institution financially. GET PEOPLE SAVED who will in turn GET OTHER PEOPLE SAVED. That's all there is to it. Become obnoxious door to door religion peddlers. They may indeed get people saved, however, what exactly are they getting them saved unto? The great hereafter? What about the now? What about 3 John 2?..... which declares that God wants us to prosper and be in health just like our souls' prosper? Talk that one away for me. Tell me that one doesn't mean what it says.

You see, the problem with you kids, and unbelievers ( Christian or otherwise ) like yourselves, is that you never attempt to tell us exactly why these verses don't mean what they plainly say they do. You simply like to find the easiest way out with some pre-school explanation like: ' It was Hobarts twisted theology'.

It's either Gods' word, or it isn't.

Grow up and begin to wrestle with it.

...I seem to remember Jacob doing just that.

[healed]

No growing up needed here brother Hombro because Ive already grown up and realize what an insane mess that FA really was. If the rest of the world lived according to HEFs ideas then we would see a significant reduction in the worlds population because most would die needlessly. Nobody is blaming God for saying anything because Hobart did the saying, not any God. Anybody can put any spin on any scripture they want to. Your asking us to tell you what scripture means and what it dont mean, but you never answer us when we ask about why children and adults died, believing as Hobart taught. I dont need to take a look at Catholism or other excuses that you Freemanites point to. Im looking at you. You talk about the church institution today and how its financed, well I seem to remeber Hobart living in a very nice home, the abundant life as he put it that was bought and paid for by construction workers and the like renting and driving used cars. So dont even go there with that one. The only people here that need to grow up and get over Hobart is you and your clown friends.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED: . Your asking us to tell you what scripture means and what it dont mean <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Exactly. That's what this entire discussion is about....and everything that happened is related to that answer. When you can answer what I asked, you'll have the other answers to the questions you are asking.

...in the meantime read this:

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=553&amp;S=0fe75bffed436c73066faf8 731faa7ff#msg_553

[passin_thru]

Hombre, you accept the verses you always mention only as Hobart Freeman defined them to you. You reject any other possible interpretation. Verses like Mark 11:24 become a mantra for Christian living. You pay no never mind that it doesn’t work. If you were honest with yourself, you could admit it didn’t work for Freeman or others or yourself. I know, I’ve seen it most of my adult life. You keep believing Freeman and pushing away the truth. Well, Freeman was wrong, dead wrong!

Anyone who teaches the same faith theology always ends up with the same results, suffering and death. But, you go ahead. Keep trying to find the secret formula that will unlock God’s Super Wal-Mart in the sky. You’ve wasted a quarter of a century. Why stop now. It couldn’t possibly be you made a mistake. It couldn’t possibly be that ‘holy’ Freeman wasn’t touched by God but instead touched in the head. No, of course not. All others Christians are wrong. After all, you are an ‘overcomer’. You’ll eventually get it to work.

God doesn’t work for us. We work for God.

P.S. Please experiment with your own health and life, not the health and lives of babies.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN: 1.)...Hombre, you accept the verses... only as Hobart Freeman defined them to you.....2.) You pay no never mind that it doesn’t work......3.) Keep trying to find the secret formula that will unlock God’s Super Wal-Mart in the sky.....4.) God doesn’t work for us. We work for God.......5.) P.S. Please experiment with your own health and life, not the health and lives of babies.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

1. Suppose you define Mark 11:24 for us, and tell us why it doesn't mean what it says.

2-3. It worked for me countless times...er......enough that I quit counting; besides, it's not about getting something to work for me, it's part of being Gods' child and Him wanting the best for me......Haven't you ever read 'The Prodigal Son'?, I'm not about to turn down that which is part of my inheritance in Christ in deference to playing some stupid game of religious piety, inspired by poverty vowing Catholic priests of the occult. You might also want to read James 4:3 which gives clear instruction to greedy individuals, who compare Gods' promises to an overstocked warehouse in a LA blackout.

4. I'll need chapter and verse for that...wait a minute, I already know the answer: it'll be 'The Great Commission'. Gee, like there aren't enough Gideon Bibles everywhere, and enough obnoxious evangelicals trying to shove their version of Christianity down everyones' throats already, but if you want to be part of that, don't let me stop you. I hear tell that there are people lining up everywhere to give their lives to Jesus because some backwards guy in a brown leisure suit is telling them to. Next stop: The servant of all. Now that would be the correct choice, and the real way that hearts may be influenced: by actually doing, or demonstrating either the fruits of the Spirit, or the gifts of the Spirit.....but since you don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, as outlined in 1 Cor. 12, you'll need to pull a lot of community service...perhaps the Friday night fish-fry? Also, I'd like to know what 'work' it is that you are holding up for me to see, and why you have your reward for doing so....I sense a little bit of pride goin' on there.

5. Thanks for your advice. ...but perhaps you don't remember the 1001 or more times that I have stated publicly that people shouldn't step out into the deep water unless they're sure that they can swim, and the fact that I have stated about 1001 times or more that I don't condemn anyone who goes to a doctor, and that I have myself. I also don't need your condescending false judgement, derision and mis-representation of what I have said, past, present and future, by inferencing me as a baby-killer.

[healed]

"Thanks for your advice. ...but perhaps you don't remember the 1001 or more times that I have stated publicly that people shouldn't step out into the deep water unless they're sure that they can swim"

You shouldnt be preaching the "deep water" if you dont know its consequences Hombro. The "deep water" that Hobart preached was what all at FA were striving for. The "deep water" was where it all went wrong, as it does with other cults. The "deep water" is just another spin for Hobarts twisted interpretation of the bible. This is more no brainer stuff that any of us that attended there know. You keep going round and round in circles, sometimes baiting it with nice words other times showing your true self, but your arguements are always the same and easy to see through.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED: ....You keep going round and round in circles, sometimes baiting it with nice words other times showing your true self, but your arguements are always the same and easy to see through.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hey, thanks for the relevant theological discourse from the Bible, which as always, proves your point.

That's what this is about, Healed, not my idea, or yours, but what the Bible says. Until you can speak intelligently about the subject matter without resorting to blanket accusations without chapter and verse to back you up, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

There is also a difference between one who reads the Bible with the intent of understanding what is there, versus the person who seeks prooftexts to support his own viewpoint.

...so we'll know when you attempt to twist Bible verse to your own end.

Good luck to you, and may God bless you in your attempt to achieve understanding, and scuttle your bitterness.

[passin_thru]

Hombre, you make it sound as if Hobart Freeman’s teachings are the sole recognized Bible interpretation and accepted by all theologians. This is hardly the case. In fact, virtually all Bible apologists resolutely reject much of word-of-faith theology. No respected current or historical Bible expert I know of defends Freeman’s teachings.

Healed and others are not on the outside looking in. Rather, it is the few remaining Freeman supporters who are alone in their radical view of faith and precepts of Christian living.

On occasion, others have posted more accepted fundamental Bible interpretations. Of course, the pro-Freeman people consider them irrelevant and inferior, simply because they aren’t kosher per Freeman. So, it becomes futile to discuss Bible passages.

As long as you perceive the Bible through Freeman colored glasses, that’s all you’ll ever see.

[healed]

"That's what this is about, Healed, not my idea, or yours, but what the Bible says. Until you can speak intelligently about the subject matter without resorting to blanket accusations without chapter and verse to back you up, you don't really have a leg to stand on"

Actually many of us have legs to stand on. Read the lattest entry over at the tomax site. You obvisouly never suffered like this person and other did, thus your defense of all things Freeman. For me, the whole thing was a waste of time, life and effort. Anything beneficial that might have come from it is greatly outweighed by symptoms similiar to PTSD and other disorders. FA was a study in insanity and I for one have relatives that are proof. The effort used to try and recover from this mess is a waste of time. Its almost mind boggling that anyone could defend this mess, and it really shows how much of a fool you really are. Ive read your ridiculous rants over at overcomers.com. You say a whole lot about nothing. Others may be in awe of your "intellect" but I can see through it. Freeman possesed this aloof intelect as well and it got him and others killed. You compare yourself to Jesus in the temple, throwing out the Pharaises and disgusted with the church of today. What is it you want churches to do? Revert back to the 80s and do as Freeman taught? I still for the life of me have a hard time understanding how anyone could get off into such a mess.

[micah]

Me too. I have a hard time trying understand how people got into that mess. But thats not for me to understand, I only care about learning what the bible has to say. And the WHOLE, ENTIRE, story is this, the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. That brings the whole conflict of the now and not yet, but still... CREATION IS BEING RENEWED!!! And that is exciting. That is something I could live and die for. Ya, I agree with Healed, we do have a leg to stand on, not only that but we also have feet and we are running with that! The Kingdom of heaven is at hand, there is work to do, we must go heal the sick, feed the poor, and do the stuff our King has required that we do. And for me that means less time posting on this stupid site, and more time visiting the ones we have locked away for criminal behavior, giving to those drunken bums in alleys that threaten to give us scars like the ones they have, feeding the homeless, doing the stuff that Jesus did, turning water into wine to keep a party going, spitting on dirt and rubbing it onto a blind mans eyes to heal him...all that crazy stuff that made everyone back in his time (and more so if we saw it today in OUR time) think that he was an ABSOLUTE LUNATIC.
JESUS WAS CRAZY. But we have tamed him. YAY for us. We have made him into something that we understand, that is divine healing. that is all he cared about. Proving his power through those he healed. thats it, thats the deeper life in the spirit, just a healthier happier richer YOU.

God help us.
And if that is true?
We are screwed.

[hombre]

...until any of you can tell me, in a direct manner, what Mark 11:24, or any of the other 'questionable' scripture means, through the vehicle of scripture, without resorting to your own opinions, based upon your life experiences, none of you are either worth listening to, or have a leg to stand on theologically...and that is what we're talking about here, and have been for years now. This is about a book and what it says, yet you ( plural ), have turned it into a campaign to deny what is clearly visible for anyone with an open mind, including a child. What that tells me about ALL of you who continue to answer without being able to give a reason Biblically, is that none of you either really know squat-diddley about what you think you do, or you're afraid to do it.

So then, once again, the question is:

What does Mark 11:24 mean, if not what it says, and please also tell me why.

....don't even think about using your same old stupid worn out excuse about:

1. There are other 'interpretations', without telling me what they are.
2. How you want to hear me tell you why 'so and so' died, befoere you tell me what Mark 11:24 means. This is not about me being God and knowing the answers to everyones' problems, this is about what what the Bible says, and what it does not say.....besides...here's your own stupid little pre-school game right back atcha: I asked you first, no tagbacks.

It's really quite simple, but because of your reticence to combine simple words into meaningful thoughts through the 2nd grade facility called 'reading', you continue to stumble all over your clouded minds.

Good luck to you all, don't forget to sharpen your pencils before you begin.

You may start....NOW.

[healed]

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours".

So the folks who asked for healing in their relatives dying hour, and belived they had received it...but it did not become theirs. Why? Its not really quite that simple Hombro. This is a vague passage, it could mean differnt thing to different people. What it means to me is that if I ask for something, it will be mine, but I must meet certian consquences. Perhaps I want a new car. If I work hard or am successful, and live a life without sin (i.e. crime and soforth) then it will become mine. Its just not going to appear out of the blue tommorow Hombro. The only reason Hobart and his hommies got what they asked for is because hard working people of the congregation contributed to the offerings and he cashed in on that. This is no brainer stuff Hombro. So we all have many cases to fall back on, deaths, dying, misery, and other mess. There are no stupid little pre school game right back at you tricks here Hombro. Its reality and until you get a good dose of it, Im sure your going to continue to quote us crap that got Hobart dead.

[duncan]

Gentlemen,
I have never really listened to Healed that much, because he clearly stated a while ago that he did not consider himself a Christian. As such, it does no good to try and reason with someone who doesn't believe the Bible. However, his most recent post does raise an interesting question that I asked about a year ago.

My question was this: Why do some consider divine healing and doctors mutually exclusive? By that I mean, why can't they exist at the same time in the same situation?

If I cut my finger open, I pray to God for healing and then I go get some stitches. The doctor may be the one who sewed the wound up, but God was the one who healed it. If I break a bone, I ask God for my healing, then I go get a cast put on. God is still doing the healing, not the doctor.

This has been my question all along, and I don't see that this would be denying what Mark 11:24 states. I have prayed, and I am believing God for my healing. However, I am taking some common sense steps that will help in my recovery.

I used an illustration awhile back about a mechanic. I have a car that breaks down, but I need it to go to work. I ask God to fix my car and then I take it to a mechanic. I am believing that God is going to use the mechanic to fix my car so I can go back to work. My trust is in God and I am standing on the promise of Mark 11:24.

God gave us common sense to use in our everyday life, and I believe we should excercise it. FA became so caught up in the "dos and don'ts" that they lost sight of the forest for the trees. They wouldn't go to a doctor for stitches, but they would have no problem putting a big butterfly bandage on a cut. There really was no difference, except the stitches were done by someone who had studied at school and knew more than they did. They wouldn't go see a dentist for teeth cleaning but didn't have a problem brushing their teeth with toothpaste. They only difference was who was doing the cleaning - them or the dentist.

I write all this to state that I do not reject Mark 11:24 by going to a doctor. I am not putting my trust or belief in the doctor, I am believing God for my healing.

I think both can exist at the same time.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[william]

Hi Duncan,

You said:

>>>If I cut my finger open, I pray to God for healing and then I go get some stitches. The doctor may be the one who sewed the wound up, but God was the one who healed it. If I break a bone, I ask God for my healing, then I go get a cast put on. God is still doing the healing, not the doctor.<<<

I've tried in another place to answer this logic (I believe it was "Uncle Bob" that prompted my response on www.overcomersonline.com (http://www.overcomersonline.com)).

First, let me say dittos to all of Hombre's disclaimers about those who go to doctors, I would be the last to condemn anyone.

That said, let me attempt to show you the inconsistency in your statement by asking Why do you pray to God for healing when you cut your finger open?

A non-Christian might phrase it this way: "If I cut my finger open, I get some stitches. The doctor sews it up and it heals." What is the difference? You pray to God and the unbeliever doesn't. Both of you are healed.

The unbeliever says: "If I break a bone, I get a cast... the bone heals." You break a bone and ask God for healing, get a cast and you are healed.

It makes no difference whether you pray or not, because we are not talking about divine healing here. Examples of divine healing can be found throughout the gospels, even unto this present day. Not making a distinction between divine healing and natural healing, can be likened to not making a distinction between one who is saved, and one who is saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit. Both are healed/saved going to heaven, but one has the supernatural power of God operating in their lives through gifts of the Spirit, etc..

Divine healing is outside the bounds of natural healing and the two should not be confused.

A blind person may pray for healing and receive his sight, this is divine healing. The same person might go and get a cornea (?) transplant and begin to see... this is not divine healing, even though both instances result in sight being restored. Men can do great things, Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate many of the miracles of God.

If salvation is in the atonement of Jesus Christ, a mechanic isn't going to be able to fix it. If healing is in the atonement of Jesus Christ, can that be provided by a mechanic?

William

[hombre]

....as usual, my response is too long.

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=557&amp;S=2a4801a56ffffd3ff52271c 8d74f2bb3#msg_557

[passin_thru]

Yup, nothing is by God unless it’s supernatural. God couldn’t possibly ever want to operate within the confines of the physical laws He created. Nope, without the magical smoke and mirrors, it’s just not of God. “What a load of BS!”

A while ago, William told me he hadn’t been to a doctor or dentist in thirty years. I wonder if he still has all his own teeth, if he has any signs of aging, like arthritis or maybe his eyesight is no longer a youthful 20/20. And of course, he doesn’t ever cut himself by accident. After all, he walks by faith, not by sight.

Theologian Hombre continues to tell us the Gnostic secrets of the Bible that only ‘overcomers’ have discerned. The rest of all Christendom through the ages just missed out. “Doh!” Yet, if I’m not mistaken, Hombre said he’s been to a doctor on occasion. That would make William ahead of him, spiritually speaking. Perhaps Hombre may want to listen up and take notes when William speaks. Then his behavior won’t have to be at odds with Hobart’s teaching that doctors are of the devil and not consistent with the faith walk.

One of my relatives kept professing perfect health even when checking into the hospital to get a morphine drip for the excruciating pain of advanced lung cancer. He died! Another relative continues to confess perfect eyesight, even though she can no longer walk without bumping into things and hurting herself due to blindness from untreated cataracts. Her faith has long been reduced to lies and self-delusion.

Freeman too was a deluded failure. He died! He couldn’t get God to heal a simple sore on his foot! We’re not talking brain surgery. The precious self-proclaimed prophet couldn’t make it work even for himself. He was a mistaken fool with a false teaching. He let children and birthing mothers die needlessly. It’s simply beyond me why anyone still respects a heartless self-serving egomaniac who was in opposition to true Christian faith.

I’ve heard it all before a million times. It’s like a stuck record, the same few verses and clichés over and over. Overcomers know so little of the Bible, but think they’re such experts.

In my dealings with my relatives, I didn’t simply walk away from them without fighting for them. I taught myself what I needed to know Biblically to show them where Freemanism was a sham. At first, they’d beat me, and I’d go back and learn more. Eventually, our debates ended in draws. I still wasn’t satisfied. So, I kept on learning. Finally, I consistently won, hands down. Our final discussion ended when they put their fingers in their ears, tightly shut their eyes and began speaking in tongues so as not to hear me.

That final encounter told me two things. First, Freeman’s theology can be defeated, per the Bible. However, it takes hours of discourse, building upon verse after verse until the irrefutable conclusion is reached. Second, my relatives didn’t want the truth. They reject it willfully. So be it.

[micah]

My question is this, Why do we even let Hombre ask that question to us? The burden of proof that Mark 11:24 is true the way he understands it is all on him. The proof is in the pudding, and it is so blatantly obvious that if Mark 11:24 worked the way that Hombre believes then Hobart would still be alive. Would he not?

But this is all unimportant. Our task is bringing the kingdom of heaven to bear in the real world that we live in.

[healed]

Im with passin as he seems to have been there done that and knows this territory all too well, so I have this much in common with him. His explanation hits back hard with common sense that most people were born with. For some strange reason, the Hombros and others out there refuse to let go of all things Hobart and have a whole lot of mumbo jumbo to back up their reasoning. Hombro called us all out with Mark 11:24, then he was dealt with accordingly with our responses. Now he is doing what he does best, spewing some more horse poop.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:...Our final discussion ended when they put their fingers in their ears....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....Methinks it runs in the family......

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

MICAH:....My question is this, Why do we even let Hombre ask that question to us?...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

1. Because you know I'm right and your conscience bothers you.
2. Because this is the internet, and similar to America, in that we all have freedom of speech.
3. Because you can't stop me.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

MICAH:....The burden of proof that Mark 11:24 is true the way he understands it is all on him. The proof is in the pudding, and it is so blatantly obvious that if Mark 11:24 worked the way that Hombre believes then Hobart would still be alive. Would he not?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, thank you, Micah.
That is exactly the point I've been trying to make for 2 years now with you kids. Why didn't it work for Hobart? IMO, it was not because the interpretation of Mark 11:24 was wrong, it could have been a million things. Perhaps others who criticized him for his lack of brotherly love towards other Christians were right. Perhaps Hobart didn't have the faith that he saw and taught from the life of Christ. I'm not there yet either. Perhaps it was God sovereignly taking him from our midst, for the express purpose of scattering the sheep so that we could take this precious message elsewhere ( healed groans, then spits and curses ). Nevertheless, there is no burden on me to 'prove' anything from the Bible to anybody, the burden is on each of us to understand what it means for our own lives. I simply challenged you and the other kids to define it for yourselves.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

MICAH:....But this is all unimportant. Our task is bringing the kingdom of heaven to bear in the real world that we live in.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Now it's time to define what that is. If the kingdom of heaven were on the earth right now, would Christ be the licensing authority for doctors and hospitals?....and would he want 10% of the profits from drug companies as their tithe/tax to His government, or would He want more, like our governments now do, say 30 -50%?

Yes, Micah, what does the kingdom of heaven on earth mean to you?...and how is it that you plan to usher it in?

Perhaps the doctors and hospitals will be the first to raise a 'Christian Flag' upon their rooftops.

Then we'll know that the Kingdom of Heaven has finally arrived.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED:....I'm with passin as he seems to have been there done that and knows this territory all too well, so I have this much in common with him. His explanation hits back hard with common sense that most people were born with.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....the problem with you and Passin, is that neither one of you takes the time to actually read what I've written, and consider anything belond what the tint in your glasses tells you.

....the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ~ 1 Cor. 2:14.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED:....For some strange reason, the Hombros and others out there refuse to let go of all things Hobart and have a whole lot of mumbo jumbo to back up their reasoning.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I'll take that 'mumbo-jumbo' as proof that you don't understand what I've been saying to you for 2 years.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Hombro called us all out with Mark 11:24, then he was dealt with accordingly with our responses.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Too funny, Unhealed. Go ahead, try to convince yourself that you're right.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Now he is doing what he does best, spewing some more horse poop.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thanks as always for your in-depth anal-ysis.

[duncan]

I'm glad we have some good discussion going on (finally.) I appreciate the disagreements with me, but I continue to stand firm in my convictions.

Going back to Mark 11:24, I believe that many FA folks used it as sort of a "Get out of Jail Free" card to solve all their problems. God tells us that "His ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are higher than ours." We don't know what God has in store for us, and we don't know what he is trying to teach us.

The hardcore FA folks (like the relatives that Passin was speaking of), are using verses like Mark 11:24 as their ticket to a big Santa Claus in the sky. They can climb onto his lap and tell him what they want and, based on Mark 11:24, he HAS to give it to them.

James 4:3 states, "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."

In other words, why do most people typically pray to God? I would say that the vast majority of Christian prayers (mine included) spend most of their time asking God for things. Thinking back to some of my most recent prayer times with my family, I have asked God for the following: rain, protection over my family, wisdom in a job situation, safe travels, to remove the people from our church that are causing strife, healing of sniffles and sinus infections, the sale of my house, etc, etc, etc.

Even typing out that list, I get convicted because I see that the prayer centered around me and what I wanted. Nothing I prayed for was wrong, it's just that my prayer should have centered around the Almighty God. Our prayers should be centerd on praise and thanksgiving to God for His wonderful works. Our prayers should focus on those who are lost and hurting.

Let me ask a question - We have all been quick (myself included) to jump Healed or FiveFold, but how many of us have prayed for them? We have pointed out to Healed that he needs to get saved, but have any of us gotten on our knees and prayed for his salvation.

The so-called "prosperity gospel" seems to focus on what God can do for us. We have forgotten that we are just pilgrims passing through. This earth isn't our home, we're just stopping off for a brief moment.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[hombre]

...I think that you've been hangin out with the denoms and Catholics too long. That doctrine may sound pious, but it reeks of poverty vows to me....besides, there is a vast difference in the 'asceticism' of religions like Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism, and 'seeking first the Kingdom' as advised by Jesus.

...and there is that sticky end of that verse: 'and ALL these things ( that the gentiles seek ) shall be added unto you.'

My question, based upon your theology would be this: Why would God want to give material blessing to people, if the spiritual, or correct religious way to be, is without?

..kinda reminds me of Islam.

While one is on earth, lusting after women is bad, but once one makes it into heaven then one can have all one wants.

Doesn't make sense, when compared to the verse: 'I am the LORD, I change not.'

BTW: .......don't you think that God may be perhaps a little too extravagent in His use of gold for paving stones in Heaven? ..perhaps someone should tell Him about His shallowness.....maybe you?

...I would think that, if we are admonished to pray that His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven, that we wouldn't be into turning our noses up at gold, like it were some affront to our spirituality.

I seem to remember Solomon plating the entire sanctuary with it.

How unbecoming of a believer.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[duncan]

Hombre,
To whom was your last post directed? I had a hard time following it. It didn't seem to be a response to my post or any of the others. Did I miss something?

Thanks.

[hombre]

Yours.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

DUNCAN:.....Mark 11:24, I believe that many FA folks used it as sort of a "Get out of Jail Free" card to solve all their problems.....The hardcore FA folks.... are using verses like Mark 11:24 as their ticket to a big Santa Claus in the sky...The so-called "prosperity gospel" seems to focus on what God can do for us.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

May I quote Paul?

....without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God: 1.) must believe that he is, and that 2.) He is a REWARDER of them that diligently seek him. ~ Heb. 11:6

Some of what you have to say is very much true, like asking amiss to receive it upon your lust, and making a point to have your prayer priorities in order ( that is a given to me regarding seeking first the kingdom, that I quoted above ) but being wealthy materially, is not, in itself, unspiritual.

I get the feeling that perhaps there were either a multitude of doofus parents who taught you all wrong at FA for you all to get these impressions you have, or that it is all of you who have wrong conceptions based upon a confusion of what you think you heard.

..perhaps it is both....because I heard a balanced message on the prosperity subject, from HEF, Steve and the rest of them.

...maybe that's why HEF used to sound so p.o.'ed at the congregation?...perhaps because there were so many of you that never 'got it'?...and still don't, even though I've been preaching a balanced, common sense message here now for over 2 years?

..I'm starting to get p.o.'ed at the lot of you myself.

...it seems to me as though 'your gospel' denies the richness of Christ, in favor of some religious facade of piety that really believes nothing more than John 3:16.

Deny healing.
Deny miracles.
Deny prosperity.
Deny prayer that may have an outcome that benefits ones self.

Believe John 3:16.
Believe in tithing.
Believe in poverty as pious.
Believe in the doctors.
Believe nothing is as it is stated in the Bible, we need doctors of religion to explain it to us.

You have no 'Gospel', you have something else, and if you can't trust your god to save you from problems in the here and now, how is it that you think he will be able to save you in death?

Your god is a shadow of my God; you have reduced Him to what your mind can comprehend, and what you have experienced in your life.

[duncan]

Hombre,
Even though we haven't always agreed, I have appreciated your opinion and respected your views. Unfortunately, you have recently turned condescending and somewhat hostile.

Everything I have stated, I have backed up with scripture (as I'm sure you will state, as well), and I stand by it on authority of the Word of God.

First of all, I am by no means preaching a vow of poverty is somehow connected to holiness. In addition, I never stated that material possessions are unspiritual. However, the "prosperity gospel" is a gospel of greed and is not the gospel of scripture. The scriptures that are used to support this erroneous teaching do not even begin to back it up. Your quote above from Hebrews 11:6 does not back up this "gospel." It states that God will REWARD them that seek him. What do you consider a "reward"? Do you consider material things (like a large house, Rolex, and a Cadillac) to be a reward? If you do, this is where we differ. I read this scripture and see that God will reward me with eternal life, not with treasures that "moth and rust corrupt."

You also referenced Matthew 6:33 when you stated "all these things shall be added unto you." What things does Jesus reference here? Just a couple of verses prior, Jesus tells us - "what to eat, what to drink and what to wear." No where in Jesus words here does He promise wealth. He promises us the necessities of life.

I have also heard people use "My God shall supply all my needs according to His riches and glory." Again, the scripture here only promises to meet our needs, not our wants.

Finally, you have quoted 3 John 1:2 before "I wish above all things that thou may prosper and be in health." This is not a promise from God, but rather it is John's closing in his letter to Gaius. I would liken it to the closing of all of my posts when I say "Have a great day." This verse does not guarantee us good health and prosperity.

Finally, let me conclude by stating that, contrary to your post, I do NOT deny healing, miracles, prosperity or petitioning God on behalf of yourself. What I do believe is that many "Word of Faith" followers and followers of FA believe that God is a means to an end. By that, I believe that many see God as a way to have everything they want. The problem is that they want everything the world wants.

I'll conclude by answering the age-old question of "Why are we here." The answer is found in Romans 9:23 - "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory."

Our sole purpose on this earth is to bring glory to the name of Jesus. Anything else is only wood, hay and stubble.

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health.
Duncan

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

DUNCAN:..Finally, you have quoted 3 John 1:2 before "I wish above all things that thou may prosper and be in health." This is not a promise from God, but rather it is John's closing in his letter to Gaius. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Ding! your response is ready!

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=558&amp;S=693176a60848a84e7a82f8c 8d1890942#msg_558

[passin_thru]

Hombre, you’re wrong. The burden of proof for Mark 11:24 is on YOU! It’s the doctrine in which you believe. Why can’t you prove it works? Why was FA’s death rate much higher than normal? There’s a lot of hard evidence proving Hobart Freeman was wrong (dead wrong), but there’s no proof that even suggests he was maybe right.

You ‘overcomers’ have been at it for three decades. You still ain’t got it right. You still can’t make it work on real and serious health problems. No amputees have grown limbs anew, as Freeman liked to mention. Not a single one. Why would anyone believe, trust and follow a doctrine that no one can achieve?

Yours is a doctrine based on being able to control the physical world. Why can’t you ‘overcomers’ do it? Why is it still just a verse in a book? Why is it still just a pipe dream in never-never-land? Where are the miracles? Where are the moved mountains? Where are the uprooted trees?

I don’t define faith the way you do. Yet, as I’ve written before, I’ve experienced miracles of God in my life. With one in particular, doctors and nurses even said it was a miracle. Five years later, hospital staff still knew me and related the story to new employees. So, don’t tell me I don’t believe God heals in response to prayer.

You can also drop the ‘overcomer’ attitude. Don’t tell me I can’t discern the Bible. Don’t tell me I don’t lead the life. That’s just more holier-than-thou BS Freeman taught you. You’re no holier than anyone else. Get over it. You’re sounding like Michael. You’re posting Bible verses to belittle people and set yourself on high.

People are bringing Mark 11:24 back to you. You called them out on it. Now, you can’t deal it. They’re making good points and you have a problem with it.

[passin_thru]

Duncan &amp; Micah, I’ve read your recent posts. Regardless of other opinions, I think they are well stated, biblically speaking.

I’m not surprised overcomers don’t get it. You’re speaking of higher and deeper things of God (i.e. love, humility, compassion, patience, understanding, peace, acceptance and service to others). These were relatively unimportant to Hobart Freeman. At times, he even belittled these things. So, it makes sense that those who still adhere to Freeman’s every word, still don’t get it.

I agree these are the things Jesus promised us, if our hearts follow after Him. He didn’t promise us Rolex watches or even perfect health. He didn’t even guarantee us another day on this planet.

Like you stated, as our faith grows, our desires become more attuned to the important things of God. We no longer foolishly pray for a Cadillac. Our thinking becomes a bit higher like His thinking.

Freeman’s ‘deeper life’ was really the opposite. It’s shallow. Supernatural miracles were sought after, and nothing else mattered, not even the lives of children. Word-of-faith theology, in general, desires the wrong things. It’s selfish and hollow. More times than not, the end is self-delusion, heartache and disappointment.

[healed]

Hombre is a whack job, why even bother with it. This fool can ramble on for days to make his point, and end up saying a whole lot about nothing. Well now he is starting to isolate even those that once followed him. We are seeing an FA break up all over again. Isnt this what got you people in trouble to begin with? I think this spirit of aloofness aka cult mentality is what fractured FA into many groups. perhaps Hombro feels Duncan is now inferior because he is a down south boy and Hombro is above all that. Im just guessing because Hombro sure did a 180 on Duncan.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:...Hombre, you’re wrong. The burden of proof for Mark 11:24 is on YOU!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I could say, 'O fools and slow to comprehend, how long shall I be with you, how long shall I suffer you', but Jesus already beat me to it.

The point I have been making for 2 YEARS PLUS NOW, Mr. Mental Midget Squadron Leader, is that: the Bible says what it says.

You bunch of illiterates can't seem to be able to read the kings English, and understand simple things like, subjects, predicates, objects, nouns and verbs.

There is no point in attempting to bring post-collegiate material into a 1st grade classroom.

Continue on playing church, and enjoy your life.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED:....perhaps Hombro feels Duncan is now inferior because he is a down south boy and Hombro is above all that. Im just guessing because Hombro sure did a 180 on Duncan.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, well, the king of fleshly wisdom speaketh.....how surprising.
You forget that William is also a 'down south' boy.
I choose my fights, and I base them on principle, not someones' ethnic heritage or geographical location.
I don't owe allegiance to you, Duncan or anyone else, unbeliever.
My advice to you, is and has always been the same:

YOU need to get saved.

...once you do that, we can all start changing your diapers for you, and you can begin learning how to walk.

You have absolutely no business whatsoever speaking about Christianity in your faux-authoritative manner, since you have never bothered to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.

It's kinda like listening to a car mechanic attempt to explain quantum physics.

You know NOTHING about the matter.

[duncan]

For anyone interested, my response to Hombre was posted on the Overcomer's site.

I have been on this site for approximately two years. I admit that I came with a bit of nostalgia, because I grew up at FA. Contrary to what Healed may think, my nostalgia is not directed at Freeman, but the simplicity of my life and the young friends I used to have.

Well, I'm all grown up now and able to discern the Word for myself. As I have said before, the basic theology at FA was great. The day to day interpretations were/are loaded with personal opinions.

Much discussion has taken place over the past year about the downfall of FA and where things went wrong. Up until now it has all been speculation.

Unfortunately, I have now come face to face with the attitude that led to the FA of the 70s to become the FA of the 80s and beyond. This downfall was a result of spiritual pride that led people to mock, denegrate and insult those who did not agree with their interpretations.

I saw a little of this at FA when I was a teenager, but I was too yound and ignorant to understand it for what it truly was - Self Righteousness. Now as an adult, it is as plain as the nose on my face.

This self-righteousness has blinded so many people to what God really wants from them and what He has in store for them.

Isaiah 64 states that our own righteousness is filthy rags in God's sight.

Romans 3 states that there is none righteous.

I Peter 1 states that we are as grass and our glory is as the dying flower.

Romans 12 states that no man should think more highly of himself than he ought.

I mentioned earlier that in Romans 9, Paul states that our sole purpose on this earth is to bring glory to the Almighty God.

God may receive glory from someone being healthy and wealthy. God can also receive glory from someone who maintains their genuine testimony, even though they are sick and poor. Both of these individuals are able to reach certain groups for Jesus Christ.

Paul had a thorn in the flesh (there is a lot of speculation, but we are never told what it is.) God used this trial to keep Paul from thinking he was somehow better than others.

This life is just a flash in the pan, when compared to eternity. The only thing we can take to heaven with us is our salvation and the salvation of those we have led to Christ. Everything else in this life will burn.

Healed,
I know you have been burned badly by your experiences at FA, and I am deeply troubled by this. Nevertheless, I am praying for your salvation. Not the bitter, judgmental salvation that so characterized many at FA, but a solid salvation based upon the foundation of Jesus Christ's love for you. A love that is so strong that he was willing to receive your punishment and mine, so we wouldn't have to. I will continue to pray for you.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

DUNCAN:...For anyone interested, my response to Hombre was posted on the Overcomer's site. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Likewise.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

DUNCAN:....unfortunately, I have now come face to face with the attitude that led to the FA of the 70s to become the FA of the 80s and beyond. This downfall was a result of spiritual pride that led people to mock, denegrate and insult those who did not agree with their interpretations. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

..uh..that would be YOUR interpretation.......the love of the truth and the defence of it, is what caused FA to break with any number of Charismatic liars and denominational creampuffs.

Now I'd like to call your attention to a verse:

'When He was reviled, he reviled not again....' ~ 1 Ptr. 2:23

We all know that Jesus was reviled by the Pharisees and Sadducees continuously during His ministry, so much so that they plotted his death on any number of occasions.

Now let's look at another verse:

'Ye serpents, ye generation of VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? ...etc., etc., etc. ' ~ Matt. 23:33....

Looks to me, at casual glance that we might have an inconsistency here. Peter says that Jesus did not revile his persecuters. ...but right there it is, staring me in the face, including name-calling, based upon metaphorical relationships.

So what do we make of it?

Here's MY interpretation: There is a difference between reviling someone because you don't like them, and proclaiming the truth, which may involve revealing some very ugly metphorical descriptives to get ones' point across.

Things like....oh..I don't know....uh.....

LOW FLYING MENTAL MIDGET SQUADRON comes to mind.

Here's the metaphor interpretation for those who may or may not be a part of the squadron:

The terms: 'Low Flying' and 'Squadron' refer to the fact that it's members cannot see beyond the horizon.

The term 'Mental Midget' refers to the fact that they haven't mastered first grade English yet, nor do they possess the memory capabilities needed for the upgrade to 'high flyer' status.

Those are just simple, truthful observations.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Have a nice day, and remember to hug at least 12 people today, regardless of who they are, or what they represent/believe.

[duncan]

Need I say more?

[hombre]

No, I have exposed myself for the cruel hearted b*stard that I am.....I actually expect people to read, understand and assimilate what I say before they respond with diarrhea of the mouth activated by constipation of the thought.

[odysseus]

As you say you are cruel hearted.

Judgment days-a-'comin’

[hombre]

Oh yes...as usual Odysseus, you must be right...BTW: have you reserved your ticket to hell yet, or do you have elite status?

[healed]

I get a feeling that hombro is feeling cornered and trying its best to fight out of it. This is quite interesting to watch, I must say. Now this quote takes us back to the good ole days:

"once you do that, we can all start changing your diapers for you, and you can begin learning how to walk".

Why yes, the meat, right? The deeper stuff that got us all sick and some died. Oh how elite you must feel, me being just a babe that needs the milk. The bait is what you mean. Seen it all before Hombro, reel them into the meetings, sooner or latter they lose their glasses then they suffer that abcessed tooth trail of their faith or they refuse to work for a gov. contractor and lose their job, etc., etc. They soon become a full fledged Freemanite, just like you! Nah, Ill have to pass on that one brother Hombro, Im a veteran of those hard times, go find yourself a newbie. Get thee behind me satan!

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-HEALED:...Get thee behind me satan!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

It's really unfortunate that you were not able to be alive to tell that to Jesus when He delivered Mark 11:23-24 to the disciples and the rest of the world.

I'm quite sure you would have been lumped in with the unbelieving Pharisees, or at best, those from His home town, whose fleshy minds were so clouded that even God Himself couldn't override their unbelief.

...and unlike Duncan, who thinks he can love you into the kingdom, Peter reminds us that there are those who are beyond redemption.

'....natural brute BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption....' 2 Ptr. 2:12

...if it were me, Unhealed, and I did not believe the Bible, I wouldn't be wasting my time here on those who do. I would be out there having the best time that I could possibly have, before the big dirt nap.

...instead, you are an evangelist of the world to Christians.

...may I quote Peter once more:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ....And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. .....And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. ~ 2 Peter 2: 1-3

Good luck to you, unbeliever.

[duncan]

Hombre,
I was thinking last night when I got home about yesterday's discussions and something occurred to me. I was reminded of Paul's writings to the Romans and to the church at Corinth.

I'm sure you are familiar with it, but I would like to post a couple of verses for those who may not know the Bible as well.

Romans 14:1 states, "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."

For those who don't know what "disputations" means (I had to look up the Greek to know myself), it means things that are disputable or opinions. In fact, the whole 14th chapter in Romans talks about how to treat a weaker brother.

I Cor 8:9 reads, "But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

This whole chapter talks about eating meat sacrificed to idols and the potential to offend a weaker brother. In fact in the first verse of that chapter states, "Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies."

I know that word "Love" scares a lot of FA folks and sends them into convulsions because it's not considered "the strong meat." But I say that a message of Love is the strongest meat of all. It's easy to squint all the time because you won't go by a pair of glasses. It's much harder to show love to someone who doesn't agree with your point of view.

FA liked to stress what they called "the Faith Message." And before the hammer starts coming down on me, let me say that I am not discounting faith, because I know that the Word says that "without faith, it is impossible to please God." However, the Word of God also says that people will know we are disciples of Jesus by our love, not our faith.

Going back to my original point in this post, FA folks never considered the "weaker brother." FA folks never gave a rip about the weaker brother. If you were saved on Sunday, then you better be eating the "strong meat" by Monday, or you were looked down upon and shunned.

Paul stated that he became all things to all people, because he didn't want to cause a weaker person to stumble. How many FA folks could say the same thing?

Have a great day!
Duncan

[healed]

Oh cheer up Hombro. Your letting us all get under your skin. I thought you Freemanites were tougher than that.
Speaking of dirtnaps, your beloved Freeman is taking his while Im still alive. Ill go with what Im doing now, least Im still kicking.

[wordworks2001]

I am the author of {i}The Ghosts of November: Memoirs of an Outsider Who Witnessed the Carnage at Jonestown, Guyana.{/i} My name is Jeff Brailey. Please google the title or my name to check my bona fides. I would like to interview former and current members cults or alternative religions for a book I am writing. I have been writing about alternative religions for about 30 years. I approach each group I write about with an objective and open mind. I have written about the House of Yahweh, a religion based in Abilene, Texas that was billed as the "deadliest doomsday cult in America" and after living with the group for about a week, wrote an article refuting that characterization.

I hope some of you who have contacts within a group will encourage them to speak with me. My email address is wordworks2001@yahoo.com and my blog is http://novemberghosts.blogspot.com

[hombre]

..response to Duncan...HERE:

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=563&amp;S=4fb6f19afc4b5d7545e154f 58e5d9709#msg_563

[passin_thru]

To the rest of you, I’ll apologize ahead of time. This is gonna reek of hardhearted self-glorification. It’s really intended for our overcomer friends:

Like with all Freemanite overcomers, Hombre simply knows it all. The rest of poor backslidden Christendom never got it. If it weren’t for Hobart Freeman in the middle of some Indiana cornfield, God just wouldn’t be known. To bad he died. I mean Hobart, not God. “What a wretched bunch of dung!”

I wish Hombre could hear himself for what he is. He’s just as egotistical, exclusive and know-it-all as Freeman. Every overcomer I ever ran into is the same way. They really believe they are the chosen few and the rest of us are poor ignorant dolts, nothing more than dirt under their holy feet.

The only reason they can’t get along with Michael is because Michael insists on setting himself up as the most high overcomer. It’s similarly true for Hombre. If you don’t cow tow to him, as if he’s some theological sage, you’re damnable. “What a load of malarkey!”

Hombre belittles people and thinks he’s so learned. Well, ya’ wanna compare resumes, guy? Ya’ wanna compare degrees? Where would you like to start, undergrad, grad or post graduate? My alma maters don’t advertise on matchbook covers neither. I graduated <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> laude. My wife graduated summa <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> laude. I could never beat that gal at nuttin’!

Ya’ wanna play who lives a righteous life? I’m game there too! Now that doesn’t mean I consider myself righteous, it just means I’ve learned through experience overcomers are often some of the worse sinners. Have you been divorced? I’ve been married to the same great gal for more than 30 years. Have you fornicated with women? I’ve been to bed with two women my entire life. One was an awful mistake. The other is my lovely wife, the joy of my life. Have you been addicted to alcohol or drugs? I haven’t. Those things, right there, set me apart from the overcomers in my family!

Duncan is right. Overcomers are scared to death of love. They cringe and hate the very word. They can only discuss it when they’ve fully qualified it, per Freemanology. The great Bible passages of faith and love that Duncan and Micah have recently alluded to are foreign to the overcomer’s mindset. They can’t comprehend it. To me, it is more sure evidence that Hobart Freeman was just another cult leader and false prophet.

Here’s a Bible passage I’ve posted many times before. I see FA written all over it. Can ya’ tell me specifically why I’m wrong?

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:15-23)

P.S. From now on, I refuse to go out to some link to get anyone’s post. If you can’t post it here in FACTnet, screw it.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:.....The rest of poor backslidden Christendom never got it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...for the most part, that statement is true; if you don't recognize that, then it is a given that you are one of them yourself, and comfortable with the status quo.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:.... wish Hombre could hear himself for what he is. He’s just as egotistical, exclusive and know-it-all as Freeman.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...and then you go on through the next x-many paragraphs, justifying and exalting yourself and your achievements and condemning me.....didn't you read Duncans' narrative about 'receiving a weaker brother ( which you consider me to be ) but not to doubtful disputations'?...and how about not offending me?...I'm crying right now. Boo-hoo. You hurt my feelings; http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif nevertheless, I'm happy for you that you've shared your diploma of righteousness with us, you probably won't need the help of Jesus to get in.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:...The great Bible passages of faith and love that Duncan and Micah have recently alluded to are foreign to the overcomer’s mindset. They can’t comprehend it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, of course we don't. ...and BTW, thanks for the compliment and the referrral to me and my brethren as 'overcomers' as opposed to 'marshmallow Christians'. ...but back to the subject at hand: let's see now, It is impossible to please God without faith, and at the same time, faith works by love ( Heb. 11:6, Gal. 5:6 ) I think I've got it. It reads just as simply as Mark 11:24. Love you brother! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

P.S. From now on, I refuse to go out to some link to get anyone’s post. If you can’t post it here in FACTnet, screw it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

OooOOOoOOooOOooooo....YOU'VE been a BAD BOY, Passin! ...using faux curse words and your previous demonstration of personal pride have got you on a collision course for the big furnace!!.......but what can I expect from a man who used the bad, bad, word 'screw'....it's just part of your nature, I guess, from having fornicated with a woman who wasn't your wife. But I'm glad for you that Jesus recognizes that, and you are forgiven from it, unlike others who have done the same thing, yet aren't. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

BTW....did you notice how the 'Factnet' automatic censorship system...the purveyor of all that is good, just, holy and the American Way, recognized the filthy word you tried to use within your collegiate honors degree and deleted it with three red dots?..I know what that word is, you filthy man!

....aside of the fact that 'Factnet' does not allow for expositories longer that 5.2 kilobytes, or whatever that tiny allotment is, I have this need to be able to have freedom of speech when I talk, and not be censored by a machine. If you prefer to do your talking here, where your virgin ( excuse me ) post-virgin ears will not be offended, that is certainly your own business.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:....To the rest of you, I’ll apologize ahead of time. This is gonna reek of hardhearted self-glorification. It’s really intended for our overcomer friends: <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

......this is really the crux of the issue, whether you want to acknowlegde it or not.

God is not only incredibly wise, he expects us to be so also. He is also quiet and subtle, and expects us to know how to divide truth from error.

Many times, He speaks to us gently and quietly, He is not one to impose His will upon us ( even though He IS always right, after all , He IS God ) ...and it is either difficult to hear Him, because we are caught up in whatever it is we are caught up in, or we pull our shoulders away and continue on down our own path.

That is precisely what you just did, Passin.

You knew what you were setting out to do was not exactly right, but you did it anyway.

How can we possibly expect Mark 11:24 to work in our lives, if we can't follow the simplest leadings of the Spirit of God?

You've answered a very difficult question for us all today, Passin.

Thank you, and may we now all begin to look into our own hearts for the answers that we need, instead of finding a convenient scapegoat to throw blame upon.

...and if you have the heart for it, here's another really long post, that deals with the same issue....that is, growing in Christ.

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=565&amp;S=c5ef8489903a2f5d47513bb f20e910aa#msg_565}

[passin_thru]

Hombre, I didn’t think you’d honestly address any of my challenges or questions. You can recognize arrogance in others, especially when they challenge you. You’re just blind to it in yourself. You’re like all the other Hobart Freeman misfit overcomers. You’ve sold yourself to a dead man, who came along once upon a time in Indiana and brought pain, suffering and death.

Freeman and the overcomers didn’t care if 100 or 100,000 died. They were out to prove the Bible said what they wanted it to say. The few remaining overcomers are still trying and failing at it today. They’ll continue to fail until the last one joins Freeman in the grave. Arrogance, pride and delusion stop them from seeing Hobart Freeman for what he was, a failed man who was terribly wrong.

I’ve now posted the same Bible passage about a dozen times. If I were a Freemanite, its truth would surely scare me to repentance. However, no overcomer has even dared acknowledged it, let alone respond and refute it:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:15-23)

[hombre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah...blather on dolt.

I've been quoting Mark 11:23-4 for the thousandth time too, but dunderheads like you are loathe to accept that it is in the Bible and means what it says and says what it means.

I'll use the same verse you used on me plus this one:

....But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ~ 2 Ptr. 2:1-2

...I/we all duly note also, your failure to admit your errors, due to the colossal proportions of your egotistical pride.

...but I'll forgive you anyway, I know you're just a weak brother in need of some spiritual eyeglasses. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

P.S. : You're starting to sound more like Michael every day..... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[passin_thru]

It doesn’t feel good when someone sets themselves above you and treats you like an ignorant dolt, does it Hombre? Well, overcomers have made it their religion. You dish it out but can’t take it.

So now you allude I’m a heretic for posting Matthew 7:15-23. That’s typical childish overcomer behavior. “If ya’ can’t refute ‘em, condemn ‘em!”

What’s this ‘I/we’ stuff? I don’t see anyone rallying to your cause. Except for the handful of remaining Freemanites, no one believes Hobart Freeman’s faith formula. He’s just a dead cult leader whose legacy is suffering and death.

[healed]

I remeber a few post backs or in an email from some Freemanite somebody telling me I was thickskulled or why couldnt I get it through my thick skull what Freeman was trying to say. Im still confused because a few post back these clowns were busy telling us that FA was perhaps too legalistic and nobody told us we couldnt visit the doctor. Now we find brother Hombro doing another 180 and he is going off the deep end talking about weak Christians now that he found Duncan to be weak and possibly a backslider. Im seeing FA all over again here. Hombro even said he couldnt find another church like FA. There is no reasoning with these people because they are dangerous and whacked, you just need to push the right buttons to find where their heart is really at. Hombro is a perfect example.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:....You dish it out but can’t take it. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You wish.
....I'm reminded that you continue to post gainst me, which tells me that I'm ipossible to ignore, and I'M the one getting under YOUR skin.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PASSIN:..So now you allude I’m a heretic for posting Matthew 7:15-23. That’s typical childish overcomer behavior. “If ya’ can’t refute ‘em, condemn ‘em!” <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....I see that you're taking your own advice.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Passin:...He’s just a dead cult leader whose legacy is suffering and death.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...that's probably what the Romans under Nero said about Jesus too, when the believers were being fed to lions.

The reason we continue to have faith, unlike you, is because we have seen something you haven't.....something your carnal mind will never be able to comprehend.

'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' ~ 1 Cor. 2:14

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

THE UNBELIEVER UNHEALED SEZ:....m still confused because a few post back these clowns were busy telling us that FA was perhaps too legalistic and nobody told us we couldnt visit the doctor. Now we find brother Hombro doing another 180 and he is going off the deep end talking about weak Christians now that he found Duncan to be weak and possibly a backslider.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Once again you prove your mental deficiency, and your qualifications for group leader within the Mental Midget Squadron. I'm not even bothering with your statement, because anyone with a grade school education, who has bothered to read what I've said, could understand it. What did you say your I.Q. is?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UNSAVED AND UNHEALED:......There is no reasoning with these people because they are dangerous and whacked, you just need to push the right buttons to find where their heart is really at.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Oh yes, and you're the one to do it aren't you? Unhealed, the expert on deprogramming Christians and showing to the entire world what a farce their religion is....and of course, you've really pushed my buttons and made me go off the deep end, haven't you? ...it was all a part of your grand plan wasn't it?...am I ever red-faced. You really got me that time didn't you?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

I am glad for you, however, that you feel good about your self-indulgent feelings of importance and worth. You need that..after all, you really have nothing else.

[passin_thru]

Regarding Hobart Freeman being a dead cult leader whose legacy is suffering and death, Hombre said, “...that's probably what the Romans under Nero said about Jesus too, when the believers were being fed to lions.”

Well, the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ was preached throughout most of the known world within a single generation. His words and followers remain after 2,000 years. They didn’t die on the vine from some ‘faith-formula’ like Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly. Also, FACTnet is not the coliseum, and you aren’t persecuted for the name of Jesus. I’d like to see you try to get in line with the true martyrs. What a hoot!

Hombre also said, “The reason we continue to have faith, unlike you, is because we have seen something you haven't.....something your carnal mind will never be able to comprehend.”

Yeah, overcomers saw birthing mothers and newborns dying at 60 times the normal rate, and nobody raised a finger to help them. That’s your heartless faith!

The damnable truth is, overcomers would give anything to hear their master’s voice again. If only Hobart Freeman could live and preach the ‘strong word’. If only they could feel the oneness and fellowship again. They’d gladly let some more mothers and babies die.

If Freeman’s own foolish premature death didn’t make overcomers stop and think, nothing will. Overcomers don’t really want the truth. They just want dead Hobart Freeman. They just want to deceive themselves in believing they are God’s elite chosen few.

I thank God that Freeman died when he did. Innocent lives were certainly spared because of it, and many people returned to their senses.

[healed]

"Unhealed, the expert on deprogramming Christians and showing to the entire world what a farce their religion is....and of course, you've really pushed my buttons and made me go off the deep end, haven't you"

Deprogramming Christians? Are you feeling deprogrammed? I never said I was a deprogrammer. Did someone try that with you? Thats a very misleading statement there Hombro. The only farce being discussed here is FA and you, not all of the Christian world. Since when did you start lumping yourself in with the rest of the Christians? I thought, after reading your sillyness over at overcomers.com, that todays Christians are anything but the real deal. According to you they are weak and worldly. Only the truth according to Hombro, delegated to him by the departed Freeman, is to be beleived. The rest of us are unworthy to be in your presence. FA was a sad mess, Hombro. Its time you come around and stop with the denial. Nobody asking you to give up your Christainity.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PassinUpChuck:...I’d like to see you try to get in line with the true martyrs.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...I'm sure you'd be sellin' popcorn.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PassinUpChuck:....Yeah, overcomers saw birthing mothers and newborns dying at 60 times the normal rate, and nobody raised a finger to help them.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

No, that's what YOU saw, and still see through your colored glasses. BTW: I'd like you to name the source that you got your percentage figures from. Lets look at infant mortality rates for the year 1980, since that was the 'heyday' era of FA. That rate was: 12.6 per 1,000 live births (*1.). In percentage terms that would be: 1.26%. Taking PassinUpChucks figure of FAs' infant mortality rate being 60 times the average, we arrive at this equation: 60 x .0126 = .0756, or 75.6 percent. I am going use as a nominal figure for FAs' 'laity' ( there's a word you marshmallows understand ) of 3,000. That is probably quite low and could easily be doubled when one adds up all the various outreaches. I'm going to divide that by 4 and arrive at a figure of roughly 750 families. As we are well aware, people were quite prolific at FA, some having as many as 10 or 11 children. I had 5. BTW, none of mine died, 2 of them hospital born, before FA, and 3 of them at home after FA, 1 with a midwife, and 2 by myself. ...but let us get back to the fascinating equation. Assuming 750 families had a baby each year, the equation begins to look like this: 750 x .756 = 567. That's really quite extraordinary, Passin. But regardless of how many babies were born per year at FA, even if it were only 100, 75.6 percent is a ridiculous lie, and YOU are quite the lie-meister. If we old-timer, 'overcomers' as you like to call us, were as bloodthirsty as you say we are/were, I would venture to say that we might enjoy the spectacle of seeing YOU and your ilk thrown to the lions, ourselves. In addition, I would like the Kosciusko County Coroner to officiate the event, by opening with a reading of the official figures of infant mortality rate per annum for FA during its heyday, which would basically serve as a formal indictment, conviction and execution all at once. Let the games begin!

(*1.)http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5127a1.htm

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

:PassinUpChuck:.....I thank God that Freeman died when he did. Innocent lives were certainly spared because of it, and many people returned to their senses.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...perhaps we should pray for the doctors and nurses to die as well, since they are responsible for almost 100,000 deaths a year through negligence and mistake at US hospitals.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

USA TODAY, http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-05-22-death-rates_N.htm :....What Americans don't know can hurt them. In 1999, the Institute of Medicine reported nearly 100,000 patients a year die from medical errors. In 2003, researchers from Rand Corp. reported that only half of patients got recommended medical care.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That says NEGLIGENCE AND/OR IGNORANCE is/was to blame, Passin, NOT people who got wheeled in on their deathbeds having cardiac arrests and the like.

Do us all a favor, and research what you write before you start drooling all over your ability to write coherently; you know, not checking reference material is what Dan Rather got axed for.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UNhealed:...duh, duh, duh, duh.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

...uh...Unhealed....you attempt to 'deprogram' Christians, every time you write, through your worldly system of doubt and unbelief.

Your kind would be happy if all things 'God' were gone, so that you could live happily ever after.

.....like John Lennons' fairy tale dream for the lost: ' Imagine there's no heaven........'

Hey good luck in the big black dirtnap.

[passin_thru]

Ya’ know Hombre, it’s way passed time I ended this inane posting exchange with you. I started to scan your most recent post and just said, “Ah, heck with it.” I couldn’t stay interested long enough to even make it through it. What was that little diddy you posted a couple days ago; “Yeah, yeah, yeah...blather on dolt.”

To the unshakeable, unflinching, steadfast Healed, way to go! I think you have some of the best posts and know how to really put these clowns (as you like to call Freemanite overcomers) in their place. Take care!

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PassinUpChuck: it’s way passed time I ended this inane posting exchange with you.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...can't face the facts and deal with it can you?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PassinUpChuck:n my dealings with my relatives, I didn’t simply walk away from them without fighting for them. I taught myself what I needed to know Biblically to show them where Freemanism was a sham. At first, they’d beat me, and I’d go back and learn more. Eventually, our debates ended in draws. I still wasn’t satisfied. So, I kept on learning. Finally, I consistently won, hands down. Our final discussion ended when they put their fingers in their ears, tightly shut their eyes and began speaking in tongues so as not to hear me.

That final encounter told me two things. First, Freeman’s theology can be defeated, per the Bible. However, it takes hours of discourse, building upon verse after verse until the irrefutable conclusion is reached. Second, my relatives didn’t want the truth. They reject it willfully. So be it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...so what you're saying, is that you need to go back and study the Bible some more, because once more, you've been defeated, not only Biblically, but now in scientific fact, backed by simple mathematics that proved you are a liar.

Oh, and BTW: Liars are fryers, but I do have to hand it to you in a good attempt to delude anyone without sufficient time to think your assertions through.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PassinUpChuck: To the unshakeable, unflinching, steadfast Healed, way to go! I think you have some of the best posts.....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Where is the eye-rolling emoticon when I need him? Now we have on display, the confessed marshmallow 'Christian', congratulating the confessed unregenerate in a embrace of brotherly love in their mutual shared hatred of the doctrine of Biblical faith.

Do I/we really need any other proof that denominational 'Christianity' is not doing much of anything for its' people?

[healed]

Hey thanks for the support Passin. Hombro keeps refering to dirt naps, but whats funny is Im still alive and his hero is rotting with his wife in some grave. The odds seem to be in my favor, but Hombro is going to somehow find a way and twist this around and tell me Freeman is somehow doing better.

[healed]

And what is this your blabbin about now Hombro, these infant mortality rates? You got a lot of nerve. The truth is out there, on the net and in official documentation, and you still deny it? Talk about being brainwashed! You need deprogramming you fool. You actually beleive that those deaths were neccessary? Its amazing how you referance nationwide mortality rates or some other incoherent nonsense, just like your idol Freeman did. But the strange thing is, I bet if you got cancer or some other scary illness, youd be the first to run to the doctor.

[hombre]

Healed, once more you demostrate to me and anyone with a grade schoool diploma, that you are incapable of reading anything with understanding.

Every now and then, I run into someone like you, usually working for some large nameles, faceless corporation where they can hide their mental deficiency behind masses of other people and blame things on others.

If you take the time to sound out the syllables in each word, and try to remember as you read, you will find that the sentences I compose actually have meaning, substance and purpose to them, unlike the mindless accusations and drivel that you post.

The question that PassinUpChuck raised was his belief that the infant mortality rate at FA was 60% higher than the average. That question was absolutely found to be a misleading exaggeration, or in other words 'a lie', through the application of simple 5th grade arithmetic.

That's what it was about, Unhealed.

By the way, are you a big fan of Jeff Foxworthys' new show:

'Are YOU Smarter Than A Fifth Grader' ?

[mark1124]

Healed said, "Hey thanks for the support Passin. Hombro keeps refering to dirt naps, but whats funny is Im still alive and his hero is rotting with his wife in some grave. The odds seem to be in my favor, but Hombro is going to somehow find a way and twist this around and tell me Freeman is somehow doing better."

Hombre doesn't have to. The word of God says that Christians who die are not in the grave (their body, yes.) Their spirit is with Jesus in Heaven. Unless you repent and be born again, Hobart Freeman will be better off than you. He is in heaven with his wife enjoying the presence of God and you will be...well certainly not pergatory.

[passin_thru]

Okay Hombre, I finally got thru the venom and calculation. However, I was more interested in something else you wrote. You have five kids. Congratulations! Do they all hold to Hobart Freeman like dear old pop? How’s the wife? Please share. I’ve noticed you overcomers very rarely share any personal information.

Anyway, here’s my documentation. If you want, I can document another dozen or so similar links. I’d like to see any independent reputable source that defends Hobart Freeman and FA’s disregard for human life. Sorry, but I don’t trust your personal math skills. Oh, and I don’t accept scientology, metaphysics, mind-over-matter or other such nonsense.

July 10, 1976 -- Based on local hospital statistics, the mortality rate for women members of the Glory Barn who delivered babies at home in the past year is more than 60 times higher than death rate for women who had physicians attending them in hospitals.

Two women and four infants are dead, and there are reports that another mother and a 7-month-old infant also died without proper medical care as a result of their religious beliefs acquired at the Glory Barn or Faith Assembly near North Webster but in Noble County.

One of the mothers, Alice R. (Leach) Rodgers, 23, and two infants, her baby and the infant son of Mr. and Mrs. Fred (Judy Koontz) Clark Jr., all of North Webster, died in Kosciusko County.

Two other infants, Jeremy Davis Miller, son of Mr. and Mrs. Larry (Jan) Miller, and Melissa Ann Kuiper, delivered by her father at the Kuipers' Goshen home, died in Elkhart County.

Another mother, Sally B. Burkitt, 27, of rural Pierceton, bled to death in her Noble County home April 4 after giving birth 48 hours earlier.

Other deaths reported were those of an unidentified Columbia City woman who succumbed to a pulmonary embolism early in May shortly after delivering a child, and a 7-month-old child who died of a liver ailment after the mother was converted to the Glory Barn and refused medical treatment for the child.

According to estimates by Melvin Greider, founder of the Glory Barn and its co-leader with Dr. Hobart Freeman, approximately 1,000 persons are members of the assembly that believes in a form of charismatic religion.

(http://yesteryear.clunette.com/150yearspart3.html)

P.S. I simply know Hobart Freeman was wrong. He missed the major theme of God’s whole purpose for us. It isn’t about self-proclaimed prophets or miracles (Mathew 7:15-23). It isn’t even about the rules, per se (Romans 13:9-10 &amp; Galatians 5:13-14). It’s about the faith of our hearts to serve God and others in love (1 John 3:18-19). It’s so important; it will judge the very sincerity of our belief in Christ Jesus (Matthew 25:34-45).

Anyway, discussing this stuff gets to me after a while. So you can pooh-pooh my post, documentation and Bible verses. I’ll sit out for a while.

[healed]

Hombro quote:
"The question that PassinUpChuck raised was his belief that the infant mortality rate at FA was 60% higher than the average. That question was absolutely found to be a misleading exaggeration, or in other words 'a lie', through the application of simple 5th grade arithmetic"

So what your telling us is that all the documentation like passin posted above is false? Its my math, thats what your saying Hombro, that I should redo the math? Are you for real? This is where you twist things, but your sinking and its not making any sense.

Faithful follower, and worshiper of Hombro, brother Mark quote:

"Hombre doesn't have to. The word of God says that Christians who die are not in the grave (their body, yes.) Their spirit is with Jesus in Heaven. Unless you repent and be born again, Hobart Freeman will be better off than you. He is in heaven with his wife enjoying the presence of God and you will be...well certainly not pergatory"

Uh...how do you know that Mark? Maybe he is in hell being judged for the needless deaths and misery he was responsible for. You know because you believe? Well I believe that he is paying some dues for what he did.

[hombre]

Thank you, PassinUpChuck, for .......

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=570&amp;S=5a047db3103771259910ab3 e5e3f7c18#msg_570

[mark1124]

Healed said, "Uh...how do you know that Mark? Maybe he is in hell being judged for the needless deaths and misery he was responsible for. You know because you believe? Well I believe that he is paying some dues for what he did."

Uh Healed, the only way that he is in hell is if he renounced his Christianity. He lived for Christ, was baptized in the Holy Spirit, trusted God for everything. You know the rest. Yes he was saved according to the Bible. Unlike you, I believe the Bible like it says and don't fight it.
He, like all teachers, will be judged more severely because they proclaim the word. But he is not in hell. The only ones who are in hell are those who reject Christ as their savior. There is still hope for you.

PassinUpChuck has misquoted this scripture regarding Hobart Freeman: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

I would like to make the following correction...Hobart Freeman never proclaimed himself to be a prophet. He was called to be a teacher. He said so. I guess PassinUpChuck was too busy doing something else when he said that on the tapes, or juswt didn't care enough to listen carefully. So this scripture does not apply to HEF.

PassinUpChuck also said, "Overcomers don’t really want the truth.

I thank God that Freeman died when he did. Innocent lives were certainly spared because of it, and many people returned to their senses"

I say that Overcomers have the truth. The word of God. Those like PassinUpChuck don't want the truth on how to overcome. Yes, I agree with one thing....many people did return when HEF died...to the dry husks of man's institutional religion. What was the result for rejecting the teachings that God gave through HEF? A famine in the land. A famine for bread? No, the word of God. You can't find an uncompromising word in any church that you go to.

But to Healed and Passin etc...they like the stale moldy bread of man's ideas. I like fresh bread myself.

[healed]

If you say Hobart is in heaven, then it must be? What if I disagree?

And for Hombres comment about me working at some inferior job, its my recollection that most at FA had simiiar employment that you refer too, i.e. construction, or some other work that was sanctioned by Freeman. Well, Im not currently employed at such a workplace, but even if I was, how does that change anything? It would seem that I and others here have more common sense than you, at least we still dont follow some fool that is dead, and the reason he got dead is because of the way he believed. Once again Hombre, you make no sense, becasue you have no common sense.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

HEALED: If you say Hobart is in heaven, then it must be? What if I disagree? <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I would say that I don't care what you think, because it is irrelevant to reality. It's like this Healed: God cannot deny Himself, neither does anyones' opinion on anothers mans' salvation mean squat diddley, unless of course, like yourself, they deny Christ.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

And for Hombres comment about me working at some inferior job,<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That's a flat out lie, Unsaved and Unhealed. ..... I never said anything about your employment.......I don't even know what you do....but here's a occupation that I don't particularly care for: Lawyers. Do you know what you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea?....a good start. Ha-ha http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif ....and who ever said that I don't have a sense of humor?

[mark1124]

Healed said: "If you say Hobart is in heaven, then it must be? What if I disagree?"

It doesn't matter whether you agree with me or for that matter what I think. The word of God proves that anyone, including Freeman, gives his life over to Jesus and becomes born again, he is saved and will enter the kingdom of Heaven, Remember John 3? Of course you do. And since Freeman received Jesus as his Lord and Savior, he is in heaven and his name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Unless of course you call Freeman and God liars.

[healed]

Freeman is responsible for a lot of hell and misery in this world, because he offered false hope that some cling to this day. He is responsible for F ing up alot of peoples lives and causing them to suffer physical pain out of fear. It still baffels me how you people can support him.

[hombre]

Same 'ol, same 'ol.

No one has any responsibility for their own actions, but Hobart Freeman should shoulder the burden instead, and it's all so very easy to blame a dead man instead of evaluating your own life in light of what the Bible so clearly says.

...as long as you continue to do that, you'll never acheive adulthood.

[healed]

What actions should I be responsible for? Did I preach a message of false hope that would provide divine healing and prosperity if you followed some method that I came up with? I didnt do that, Hobart did. So what/who are you refering to? Actually, once adulthood was acheived, I was able to break away and now I see so clearly all the suffering this has caused. I dont know whats wrong with you, but when that ultimate "trail of your faith" comes along, like it did with my relative, we will see how you perform. I seen some real misery and hell because of this. My growing up was acheived when I witnessed this and the message I got was solid, its all a waste of time and life. Lets see how you grow up Hombre, you idiot. Your a very dangerous person and I can only pray you havent suckered some poor fool down on their luck into your trap.

[mharness]

The amazing (or should I say amusing) thing to me is how pelple like hombre who no doubt is "contending for the faith" are so belittling and downgrading to everyone else who do not agtee wth them.
What a PATHETIC excuse for a christian!
Their godless attitudes sadden me.

Mark Harness

[mharness]

The amazing (or should I say amusing) thing to me is how pelple like hombre who no doubt is "contending for the faith" are so belittling and downgrading to everyone else who do not agtee wth them.
What a PATHETIC excuse for a christian!
Their godless attitudes sadden me.

Mark Harness

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Harnessed by the Devil:The amazing (or should I say amusing) thing to me is how pelple like hombre who no doubt is "contending for the faith" are so belittling and downgrading to everyone else who do not agtee wth them. What a PATHETIC excuse for a christian! Their godless attitudes sadden me. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...perhaps it is time for you to re-read the Sermon on the mount.

It would appear that you are doing the very thing you accuse me of....time also to get someone to help you pull the log out of your eye.