Faith Assembly Leadership responsible for deaths [Archive]

mscaliotti (mscaliotti)

10-28-2005, 11:27 AM

And Freeman will be judged rightly for proclaming the truth about divine healing.
The denominational churches can't handle the deeper truths of the word of God, including healing without the aid of man. That is why the system is religious Babylon and will go into the tribulation to be purged of their unbelief.
Once they are, then they will be raptured and join the overcomers who were raptured prior.

The dewnominational churches don't have the problem of people dying because of the divine healing message because it is not taught there in many cases. But the denominations go to the medical deities and subject themselves to the possible errors of the medicine man.

I ask you....has God ever been sued for medical malpractice? Does God need to take out malpractice insurance? The medical deities take out malpractice insurance to protect themselves just incase they get sued for their errors. God makes no mistakes. He is the Healer. He said that He will have no other gods besides Him. And that's what the medical profession is...medical deity.

(Message edited by Mscaliotti on October 28, 2005)

hombre (hombre)

10-28-2005, 04:25 PM

Hey Fivefold:

I notice a little duality of purpose here,
that one might perhaps refer to as hypocrisy.

You have been ranting and raving like a five year old
about 'bad names', yet you are defending the person
known as 'Healed' for his position, though he is calling me a 'fool'.

This is called 'Relativism', or 'Situation Ethics',
where every man decides for himself what is, or is not moral
in any given situation. In this case, you have decided that
'Healed' has 'guts' for speaking what you consider to be the 'truth',
yet I hear no condemnation of his usage of the word 'fool'.

Why is this?

I'm thinking that, perhaps, since the general tone and direction of
the 'Healed' post matches your own, that you overlook this infraction.

Hardly the righteous judge anymore....
...... I'm afraid that you have allowed yourself to be polluted.

Repent now, FiveFold, that Mark and I might forgive you.

...and then we can be friends.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

hombre (hombre)

10-28-2005, 05:24 PM

Hey Unhealed:

Thank you once again for the opportunity to spar with you.

Have you recovered from the sound thrashing I gave you last time yet?

I hope so.

As I remember, the last time we spoke, you were reduced to ranting profanities......

.... hardly the sort of behavior I would expect from
a doctoral candidate on religion, such as yourself.

Anyway, if I may, let me now quote your latest rant:

Healed:
Only a fool like hombre would defend freeman
and his evil legacy he leaves behind.
You clowns need to be banned so others
can come here and post legitimate post.

Hombre:
First question.
Is this the sort of learned and researched posting
that you want to leave behind as your legacy?

Second.
I see nothing here as usual but accusations.
You and FiveFold will make good buddies.

Third.
I have still not gotten a straight answer from you regarding
your line of work. I am still suspecting that you may be
a prosecutor from a small rural community.
BTW: Do you have deal with a lot of incest and zoophilia where you are at?

Fourth.
We may have to sign you and Fiver up for a little
adult re-mediation course in grade school English grammar,
since you both seem to have such a time getting
your spelling correct ( note: the last word 'post'
in the above referenced phrase of yours, needs to be plural,
i.e., 'posts', or 'postings' ).
Also, you both may want to sign up for some creative writing classes,
since it is really bad form, and leads to disinterest in the reader,
when one is so endlessly repetitive.
See for example: 'post' legitimate 'post'.
Of course that is only one example, at its' most basic.
The overall theme of your ravings, however, has always
been annoying in its' simplistic lack of content, and repetition
of accusations without substance.

Fifth.
I also note something that you and your new friend, Fiver, share;
that would be your embrace of the currently popular victim mentality.
You also may find that you have much in common with Jesse Jackson.
I would suggest that you sign up with him as aids in training,
in order to perfect your technique of outrage,
and passing personal responsibilities on to others.

Anyway...... I'm glad that I am here to help you two,
and hope that both of you will now begin to make some real progress
in defining your lives by other means than simply through the defamation of others.

I do however, give you a D+ for effort, and brevity.

healed (healed)

10-29-2005, 04:01 AM

Hombre speaks like a true Freemanite, a self asorbed hypocritical fool. I thought the bible taught to turn the other cheek? Ah, now that Freeman is no longer around for you to follow and obey, you dont feel that applies to you anymore. The thing I have noticed about FA people is that they can become violent when confronted about their beliefs. It is the same idealology that fundalmental Islamic types believe and practice.

hombre (hombre)

10-29-2005, 06:13 PM

Quote from Mark:
Boo hoo Michael. Grow up.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
I couldn't have said it better.

hombre (hombre)

10-29-2005, 06:44 PM

Quote from Fiver:
so we agree Hombre that calling people fools is wrong!
interesting!!!

Hombre:
No, we don't agree on almost everything, in case you didn't notice;
and I haven't seen the case occur yet, where you did.
I was referring to the content of 'Healeds' messages,
which, like yours, consist almost entirely of accusations.

May I remind you:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true,
whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just,
whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely,
whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue,
and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS.

~ Phil.4:8.

That would apply to our conversations as well.
I note that I have made quite a few postings here,
on various subjects related to FA, that attempt to
help others or give glory to God.

I do not see you contributing ANYTHING WHATSOEVER
that has anything worthwhile in content, to any discussion I have read here.

I see on your part, nothing but negativity and criticism of leadership
( which I note, deviates from what you have already told me about
honoring those who are in authority, and praying for them ),
and anyone who disagrees with you; as well as one attempt after another
to derail meaningful topical debate.

I am going to simply agree to disagree with you at this point
on the following subjects:

1. Calling people 'bad' names.
2. Kenneth Copeland and his legacy of heresy.
3. Your ridiculous rantings about Mark Scaliotti and other FA leaders.

This is your chance, Fiver, to show me and the rest of
whoever reads these pages, to show us that you can
discuss something other than these topics, and demonstrate
to us your depth of understanding as it relates to other subject matter
contained within the Book of books.

This is not a courtroom, Fiver, and it is absurd to continue your prosecution
of Hobart, FA, Mark Scaliotti et alius here, because it is totally moot.
There will be no convictions, no punishment or anything else judged here,
except in the minds of those present. In order to impress the readers, to such
a degree as to alter their viewpoint, provide food for thought, or to help others
( which is what this place is about ), you need to stop swinging your sword around,
calm down, and begin to discuss things rationally.

...and this we will do...if God permits.

hombre (hombre)

10-29-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote from Unhealed:

Hombre speaks like a true Freemanite, a self asorbed hypocritical fool. I thought the bible taught to turn the other cheek? Ah, now that Freeman is no longer around for you to follow and obey, you dont feel that applies to you anymore. The thing I have noticed about FA people is that they can become violent when confronted about their beliefs. It is the same idealology that fundalmental Islamic types believe and practice.

Hombre:

Ho-hum.
Different day, Same 'ol stale rhetorical regurgitations.

Todays score: F--.

hombre (hombre)

10-29-2005, 07:37 PM

True...nevertheless I don't want to discourage him or impede his progress out of spiritual kindergarten.

hombre (hombre)

11-11-2005, 01:13 AM

BAD SPELLING, GRAMMAR & PUNCTUATION!!!!

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your the real Church that everyone just cant wait to follow
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
this is the most evil and vial language!
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your wicked and should repent!
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
cougar ,your just as bad for going along with this evil!
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your "full of the devil!" just like the rest of those "socalled current FA leaders"
end quote.

______________________________________________

NAME CALLING!!!!!!

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your a liar and your words here prove it!
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
your "full of the devil!" just like the rest of those "socalled current FA leaders"
end quote.

fivefoldprophet (fivefoldprophet)
Intermediate Member
Username: fivefoldprophet

Post Number: 331

quote:
I believe it Hombre the way you embrace these evil sick men'
who talk satanic and make demonic statements
your right at home with your evil friends
these people have no relationship with the teaching of Dr Hobart Freeman and are deceivers!
You current Faith Assembly socalled Leadership may have hyjacked Freemans tapes
and are selling them,, but your deceivers and full of the devil!
end quote.

__________________________________________________ _____________

You had better repent!
.....show me one Dr Freeman tape that teaches this kind of behavior!
DR Freeman would be ashamed!
and I know Jesus is!

Hey.

How do you like me now?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

You know, you haven't listened to a word I've said to you,
or learned a single thing about anyone here.
You continue to play your stupid little power game,
and spit back all your referenced out of context crapola
that no one is interested in hearing.

So you get what you asked for.

You want to play Gods' little prophet?

Here's a nice prophecy for you to think about,
it is found in the 'book of Revelation'

ALL DECEIVERS ( etc.) SHALL FIND THEIR PART
IN THE LAKE THAT BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE.
THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

THAT WOULD INCLUDE BELIEF IN,
AND TEACHING HERESY/FALSE DOCTRINE
ABOUT JESUS DYING SPIRITUALLY.

__________________________________________________ ___

BTW: I sense a note of condescension, anger and
hope for impending judgment in your phony desire
for us all to 'be blessed'.

Anyway,.....: 'Be blessed young man,
and may all your dreams be of things sweet and nice'.

__________________________________________________ ____

Did you learn that last lesson I just gave you,
or do I need to spell it out for you again?

barn_kid

04-21-2006, 01:39 PM

In the eyes of the law, no. However, at the time of the lawsuit against Dr. Freeman, and with the potential jury pool at the time in Warsaw, it might have.

You would have to prove some sort of Charles Manson situation.....and whether the Barney Five attorneys in that town could have proven such woudn't have mattered......the jury would have felt it their duty to stop the deaths and shut down the church any way they could.

sametoya

04-27-2006, 04:04 PM

I’m not sure where you get your legal information. Several churches, clerics and parents have been successfully prosecuted for the wrongful death of children from withholding medical treatment. Several other cases have been thrown out of court, on the grounds of religious freedom. It’s a difficult legal issue. We live in a free country. Yet, we also want to protect children from harm. I don’t see why people should be unwilling to go to prison. After all, they were willing to stake the lives of their children.

“God forbid there should be any accountability, huh? I mean, what business is it of others, right?” Once again, you miss the point. CHILDREN SUFFERED AND DIED NEEDLESSLY! Are you so void of love and compassion?

Risk your own lives! YOU lay there in seething pain from a treatable infection, tumor, disease or open wound. Perhaps someone will be good enough to pray with you, but don’t dare ask them to lift a finger to help. That would be a sin! If you die, the Overcomers will brand you and yours as faithless unrepentant sinners.

WHAT A CROCK!

You stress everything ‘Freeman’ (say the right words, think the right thoughts, hunker down, band together and run from the world). But, you miss the whole enchilada (believe in Jesus, love God, love others and spread the good news of Christ).

hombre

04-27-2006, 08:08 PM

if you die, the Overcomers will brand you and yours as faithless unrepentant sinners. 

No....those who are hardhearted religious bigots will say
those types of things. Those who are truly 'overcomers'
will overcome all things, including religious pride.

mmmmm........enchiladas......mmmmmmmm

hombre

04-27-2006, 08:10 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/20453.html?1146164630

rachelengland

02-07-2007, 04:37 PM

Here is another character whose books my loved one enjoyed very, very much- in fact I remember Hobart having a great book about cults.

Is he responsible for deaths...he played a big part in the decisions people made as to where you faith was and weather or not one chose medical intervention. His teachings were dangerous!

mark1124

02-08-2007, 02:22 AM

But it was the people who made the decisions and not Freeman's teachings that were responsibile for the deaths. Too many people are deceived into thinking this way and they are influenced by the pagan media. Have you ever thought that maybe that the people did not have faith in their hearts or had other things in their lives that hindered their prayers?

Freeman's teachings were NOT dangerous. They were liberating. The people who were at the church made it legalistic and were the problem. Not Freeman.

passin_thru

02-08-2007, 07:27 AM

Hobart Freeman also did not have faith in his heart. He also had other things in his life that hindered his prayers. Thus, he too died from his ‘non-dangerous’ ‘liberating’ teachings.

mark1124

02-08-2007, 12:04 PM

Hey passin thru. What things did Hobart have in his life that hindered his prayers? Like the rest of the gang...come up with some conclusive evidence. You can't.

rachelengland

02-08-2007, 04:36 PM

Hi Passing thru..I have stayed away from this thread because of the dangers in it- but this sums up Freeman for me his teachings were dangerous and controversial-he from what I understood was influened by the WOF positive confession fad...I had a loved one who passed away because of a strong belief in these teachings. I found this tidbit and many more on line but I am sure you are ALL aware of it.

From the beginning, Freeman's congregation was the subject of controversy.

At a meeting of the County Board of Health on October 23, 1974, Barbara Clouse, the Health Nurse for Kosciusko County was concerned that the Glory Barn was a major health problem and it would get worse. She detailed her concerns, saying that "Diabetics were not taking their insulin and pregnant women were receiving no pre-natal or post-natal care.". She continued saying that "They are laying dead babies and live babies next to each other on the altars and praying over them to get the live babies to bring life back to the dead ones. There was one woman in our county praying over a baby for four days before the funeral home got hold of it." [3] Freeman was said to have been annoyed at the latter, so presumably something in this concern was true. [4] However, as the Glory Barn did not have an altar, let alone "altars", this claim was obviously quite confused and colourful.

Clouse's concerns where later supported by local hospital statistics for 1975/6, which suggested that women from the congregation who gave birth at home were over 60 times more likely to die than those who gave birth at hospital under medical supervision. Deaths of several women, infants and babies were reported, and the local media blamed Freeman's teachings as medical treatment had been declined or refused. [5]

Deaths continued to be reported to the frustration of county law enforcement officials. [6]

Shortly after they were publicised, the Glory Barn burnt down in the early hours of July 4, 1980. Six people escaped from the burning two-story barn. Two youngsters suffered burns before they were rescued from their bedrooms by their parents Brendan and Peggy Wahl. Fire brigades from North Webster, Syracuse and Cromwell fought the blaze for some two hours until dawn, which was subsequently investigated by the Noble County Police and Indiana State Fire Marshal. Rumour had it as arson, a fire started by the enemies of the Assembly. [7][8] To date no culprit has been charged.

More deaths were reported [Warsaw (Indiana) Times Union, 10 March 1980 & 13 March 1982], and eventually Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting these deaths by what was described as "negligent homicide". Daniel McConnell in A Different Gospel claimed that at least ninety members of the congregation died under Freeman's ministry. [citation needed]

Death
Two weeks before this matter was to come to court, Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by an ulcerated gangrenous leg. He had refused all medical help, even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be cleaned out. [9]

This should not be surprising, for previously in Biblical Thinking and Confession, Freeman had said that "To claim healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is not following our faith with corresponding action ... When genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it will take the place of medicine and other needs." [citation needed]

Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. [10] For many months afterwards, his wife left his suit over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and have need of it. [11]

mark1124

02-08-2007, 11:37 PM

Oh wow...you got this from the authoritative wiki-wacky pedia web site...The encylopedic website where you can write vertually anything you want to. How scholarly! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

LOL

passin_thru

02-08-2007, 11:54 PM

All cults shun and hate members who leave the cult. However, Freeman’s cult was a bit unique. They had contempt for members who got ill and died. This is because Freeman believed supernatural healing was guaranteed. Therefore, when someone didn’t get well, they were to blame. After all, Freeman was infallible. His doctrine simply couldn’t be wrong.

Then Freeman himself got ill and died in 1984. This effectively killed the cult and most people drifted away (hurt, scared and confused). For those few who still wanted to worship Freeman, they had to rectify a dilemma. Freeman couldn’t fail. He couldn’t be blamed. So, an exception was made in his case. God simply called him home.

Of course, God did no such thing. Freeman died of an ulcerated leg left untreated which became infected and eventually gangrenous. Freeman let his body rot until it killed him; not exactly Elijah called to heaven in a flaming chariot. However, it wasn't difficult for followers to suspend reality and believe a lie. Freeman had taught them to deny reality on a daily basis.

Now, there is only a handful left who follow Freeman. They still identify themselves with Freeman’s terminology, ‘overcomers’. Like Freeman, they do not profess love and forgiveness. The Christian desire to be good for goodness sake and to please God is childish and distasteful to them. Rather, obeying God’s commands is the way to personal power and glory. In their minds, they are God’s chosen eternal elite with the right to lord it over people. This is why they hang on and stay the course.

Yet, they no longer adhere to the legal edicts Freeman once handed down. They even go to doctors and dentists, which Freeman forbid so adamantly. They are ashamed of themselves. They try to hide and deny their backsliding. They lie even to themselves. In short, they've had to become hypocrites. The ‘pure’ Freeman theology was just too risky to life and limb. They now mostly condemn others, praise their dead god (Freeman) and talk the talk. They hope their loyalty alone will be sufficient for ‘overcomer’ status.

It’s sad the damage cults do. Cults needlessly ruin and take lives. The harm lasts for decades. Saddest of all, it’s for absolutely nothing. The lesson to be learned is never give a human being control over your soul.

mark1124

02-09-2007, 03:45 AM

And now, pass-Thru, you need to prove that FA was a cult. You call it a cult, like others, because you hate Freeman and everything he stands for...or maybe the word is too strong so you call it a cult so you will no longer be responsible for the teachings of the word of God.
You need to back your comments with facts and you have failed to do so.

mark1124

02-09-2007, 06:23 AM

Back to rachelengland's post from above:

It was interesting that Barbara Clouse reported that babies were placed on the altars of FA. Since FA had no altars, it proves that she made up the story and her report was obviously without merit. I just wonder when she went to FA to see this happen and if she went to FA, she would have seen no altars there. That means that her story is fictitious and another means from the secular world to besmirch a man of God with lies and induendos. Much like a few other people I know on this board.

rachelengland

02-09-2007, 03:15 PM

Mark...11:24....Why are you so dedicated to protecting Hobert Freeman? I see the verse you use as your user name it suggests to me that you have also taken that verse as your mantra for living.

This was a very, very dangerous man with teachings that obviously led to deaths of many..this name it and claim it- overcomers bull**** is just that...we live in a world where nothing is perfect-to deny that you do not need medical attention and that the power of the mind and living a life of perfection (impossible) and ungarnered faith will keep you in perfect health, is not biblical..unles taken out of context.

My loved one really enjoyed the teachings of hobart and in fact died pretty much the same way he did..she did not want ANY medical intervention, she wanted to stand on the word of faith in Jesus name- get thee behind me satan- I am healed by the blood of the lamb!!!!! Even when she could no longer get herself to the bathroom and her body was covered with tumors she would not accept it -she would not claim the sickness..

she was brainwashed by these nuts who got a hold of her when she first became a believer, how sad she did everything right Mark, she ate healthy and really cared for her body had a positive mindset- loved her Lord and creator and instead of getting proper medical intervention in the beginning stages of her illness(which was a very small tumor that would of easily been removed) she was influenced by these "rolemodels"

Yes it takes TWO to do the tango and she had a responsiblity to read the scripture thouroughly and and not the books, tapes and teachings Hobart Freeman Copleand and Hagin...but they play the devil's advocates by twisting scripture and in Hobart's case I believe God allowed him to be an example of this foolish teaching..R

(Message edited by rachelengland on February 09, 2007)

healed

02-10-2007, 01:21 AM

passin thru did a very good job of describing Freemans cult. Mark, being the idiot that he is, {thats not name calling, Im just telling it like it is} gives us the same ole rebuttal..."prove to us how FA was a cult" The point here is you have to think a little for yourself Mark. Put away the every wind of doctrine book and step back and read the bible for yourself. You dont need Freeman to show you how the scripture is to be interpreted. You know you mention that people in FA are the ones to blame, not Freeman. Well thats amazing Mark, because I dont remeber Freeman ever admonishing any of those people. Actually, through his teachings, he encouraged them.

passin_thru

02-10-2007, 07:07 AM

Hi rachelengland… I read your posts. Well, not all 2,657, but at least the ones here. I identify with what you wrote. Whether loved ones died or were lost to confusion and holier than thou delusion, it was hard. I often had the feeling I was on the outside looking in, unable to break thru. I never could reach them.

I’m not sure how I avoided getting sucked in. I was 19. Family members started listening to the tapes. They were enthralled with Freeman. I listened to a few. Almost immediately, I had a dislike for the man. Family would just fawn over him. So, I made an effort to see what all the fuss was about, but he just rubbed me the wrong way. I found myself thinking, “This guy is one conceited basturd.”

Then I was off to college. Each time I came home, they were a bit deeper into Freeman. Eventually, I couldn’t set foot in the house without feeling the condemnation and legalism. Warm loving people were now cold and unfeeling. They were convinced it would reap them great rewards in heaven. That seemed to be the overriding desire of their heart. Those who didn’t die are now worse than ever. I can’t even visit them any longer. They just criticize everything I am. I’ve been told, “It’s not all about Jesus.” Well, I’m sorry, but I’m sticking with Him anyway.

Like I said, I don’t know what made me somewhat immune. I don’t claim it was divine intervention. I just always disliked conceited bastards. Since it was God’s will for that to be part of my personality, I guess you could say He had a hand in it. In any event, I thank Him!

micah

02-10-2007, 07:14 AM

to deny that leadership was responsible for deaths in FA is to deny that Bush holds any responsibilty for death in the middle east. ANY.

mark1124

02-10-2007, 08:33 PM

Hey rachelengland,

Are you a Christian? If so, clean up your language. If not, repent.

mark1124

02-10-2007, 08:39 PM

To the rest of you Freeman experts:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

I'm tired of reading your garbage. Time to take the garbage out. It starting to stink in this forum.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

passin_thru

02-11-2007, 02:24 AM

Healed, you’re so right about thinking for yourself. Everyone puts their spin on things. Without critical thinking skills, people can be at a serious disadvantage.

Micah, that's twice you've recently posted a single sentence that made me think even after I shut down the computer. Don't lose that talent. It's rare.

Mark, I've now had time to review a lot of the posts. At some point, most people share something of themselves. Why haven't you ever given it a try? You know, tell the forum who Mark is. How did you come to Freeman? How's the wife and kids? You know, that sort of thing.

I've found once people learn a little about someone else, it gives them the opportunity to try on the other guy's shoes. Things aren't so stark black and white any longer. More complicated shades of gray take shape. Understanding can begin to grow.

franklin

02-11-2007, 04:51 PM

uh, Mark, yes Rachel is a Christian. I can tell by reading her posts. A believing and living the word Christian.

But I can not read anything Christian in your posts. You are just a perverter of the word of God, man worshipping, cult defender. Hobart Freeman, as well as all of the other word of faith charlatans are just tools of satan.

I believe in healing through prayer but also healing through God working through medical practitioners.

Hobart Freeman was a fool and a fraud. Stop worshipping him and worship God instead!

mark1124

02-13-2007, 12:11 PM

Hey franklin...do you know that Hobart Freeman is your brother in the Lord? Do you know that Jesus said not to call any man a fool or you would be in danger of hell fire? Repent or you will be facing hell fire for calling a man a fool. That is what Jesus said, not me.

I do not worship Hobart Freeman. I just know that what he taught is scriptural. And I will always listen to a man who teaches the Bible and only the Bible. Other men do too and I listen to them too.

I see you are one of those who are deceived by the two source method of healing. You know...you are always closest to the god you trust.

And if Rachel is a Christian, then swearing like she did doesn't prove it to me. Maybe she is, but she better repent of her foul mouthness. No well can have sweet water and bitter. So if she is a living and believing word Christian as you say, then swearing should not come out of her.

You cannot read anything Christian in my posts because you show a lack of discernment.

Like everyone else in this forum.

odysseus

02-13-2007, 12:51 PM

You’re very interesting Mark. You called someone on another thread an idiot and a loser but you condemn a person that calls someone you cherish (Freeman) a fool. Let me get something straight in my head. It’s ok to call other people names that don’t agree with you but no one is allowed to call ‘God’s anointed’ names, is that right? Tell us, we all want to know.

barn_kid

02-13-2007, 10:42 PM

I was born in the late 60's and was first brought to the Glory Barn in 1973. I attended until 1986........and very very rarely missed church.

We did NOT have alters.
We certainly did NOT have any sort of weird praying over dead babies at the church.

Those statements to the contrary are absolutely false.

Alot of complaints could be made about Faith Assembly and Dr. Freeman - It would be nice if at least after all these years later, people could complain about ones that are true.

If they had baby alters I'd have no trouble talking about it. But honestly, that's a bogus report. It's just not true.

- Signed,
Someone who was actually THERE at the Barn and Faith Assembly week after week from age 5-18 years of age

healed

02-14-2007, 11:53 AM

Yeah well I read that article a long time ago and she was wrong only about the altar. The rest of it what she had to say was true.
On another note, I was thinking about some things today. There were alot of us that were more or less run away kids. I was thinking about this today and how messed up it all was. I guess if I hadnt left it all I would still be in the living room listening to Hobart Freeman tapes. I could never figure out what was going on in these peoples heads. I guess the deal was you had to date another FA or FA body member, when you reached an age sanctioned by FA. This meant "praying for a mate." And if that day never came, oh well, not Gods will I guess. So at my young age, I "rebelled" as the wackos at FA called it, and left. I was out there trying to figure it all out and make it on my own, with no skills really, kind of sad. The few times I did visit, it was always the same old cold, no compromise, no how are you doing, are you ok? atmosphere. Nothing had changed, only me.Im past all that, Ive accepted it now.What is baffeling to me, however, is that these FA idiots who had normal upbringings, explored the oppisite sex in their teens, played sports, etc., suddenly expected this Freeman experiment to work. I never really understood that and I still dont to this day. The folks who really paid the price from Freemans regime were the young people, not the Marks or the Hombre morons.

mark1124

02-15-2007, 01:14 AM

Umm...healed. Can I ask you a question? Good I am going to ask it anyway:

Was it really the folks there that paid a price, or did they fail to count the cost? hmmmmmmmm????

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

passin_thru

02-15-2007, 04:53 AM

Rachelengland wrote that Mark's username (Mark1124) appeared to be his mantra for living. She’s right. This is at the heart of the issue.

It’s not about what you can get from God.
It’s about what you can give to God.

franklin

02-15-2007, 05:14 AM

"Do you know that Jesus said not to call any man a fool or you would be in danger of hell fire?"

Chapter, verse please? No paraphrasing accepted! Just some more of your witchcraft cursing.

You are a man worshipper because you let a fool, yes fool, tell you what God says. Don't you know that is the role of the Holy Spirit? Read the Bible for yourself. Let the Holy Spirit guide you in the proper interpretation of scripture. Not man.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say don't go to Doctors, heal by faith alone. You obviously have been brainwashed by Freeman's heresy. He was a fool who died a fool's death. Dying of an untreated gangrenous leg infection. Instead of having a Doctor care for it and be alive today (rightfully in prison) he died from it taking many others of his foolish cult followers with him by his heresy.

I rebuke you, your heresy and the witchcraft curses you conjure up against those who oppose your blasphemy of God's true word!

franklin

02-15-2007, 05:24 AM

Mark 11:24 (King James Version)

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

A heretic will use that verse as justification for witchcraft.

mark1124

02-15-2007, 11:27 AM

Hi Franklin. I have some thing to share with you:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

healed

02-15-2007, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the support passin thru, its always refreshing and builds bonds to have a person such as yourself pass through and actually be able to "see" the luancy of some of the characters here.
Speaking of more luancy, I was reading through one of enligtened, educated Hombres post over on the site dedicated to the following of FA. He was rambling about how todays churches were in it for the money and were big busineses. Hmmm, seems I remember the ministry at FA all driving big, NEW, mobile homes and living in the "garden of eden" over on the lake. The rest of the flock were driving used cars and renting homes because being in debt was sinful. The Psalmist tells us that Freeman was even considering ordering a Jaguar before he passed. Well Im sure it wasnt used but even a used Jag can be expensive. A new Jag can be the same price as an older home. I see a contridiction there brother Hombre. It seems only chosen ones were able to live the good life, while others lived payday to payday, of course putting their payday in Freemans pocket every Sunday.

passin_thru

03-04-2007, 07:39 PM

Here’s a bit more of my own personal story that I started somewhere in this thread. Everything is true, but bare in mind, it’s been a couple decades. So, my memory has probably embellished things a bit. However, all facts are true enough.

I was starting college when it all began. I didn’t suffer directly like many. By this time, I stood just a tad over 6’2”. No one was going to slap me around or abuse me, at least not in my family. They didn’t control my finances either, so they couldn’t hold that over my head. And, I was the youngest. So, little tikes weren’t involved. My loss was watching loved ones become deluded, cold hearted and seeing them suffer and die of their own freewill.

One summer evening, I was enjoying a ‘sit’ on the front porch. I used to love sitting there. We had some old metal rocking chairs. We’d sit together and talk about anything and everything. Sometimes we wouldn’t talk at all. We’d just watch the world go by. I didn’t know it at the time; this would be about the last time we ever sat together.

As we sat there, the aspiring ‘overcomer’ relative piped up and declared, “I’m gettin’ pretty good at subduing storms.” I had already learned not to challenge them, not unless I wanted to endure a 20-minute lecture. So, I closed my eyes and continued rocking. They continued on, “Yup, the other day there was a pretty bad one. The noise annoyed me. So, I went out and rebuked it. It got quieter almost immediately, and in a little while it moved on.” I said, “Imagine that! If the darn thing annoyed ya’, heck with it.” Fortunately, the individual wasn’t too quick at picking up sarcasm.

The next spring a storm blew off half the roof. I’ve always been a smart aleck. So, I had a half dozen one liners all set to fire off. Then I weighed the cost, smart aleck verses 20-minute lecture. I decided to let it slide. Besides, they had trouble enough paying for the repairs. They didn’t carry insurance.

(continued in next post)

passin_thru

03-04-2007, 07:40 PM

Then one time, I was just pulling in the drive when a visiting ‘overcomer’ was coming out the front door and leaving. As we met each other on the walk, it was obvious the man was very ill. Bad colds were running rampant. This guy looked as bad as anyone I ever saw with a cold. He looked like death warmed over. I was taken aback and said, “Man, that’s some cold ya’ got! Take care of yourself!” As soon as I said it, I knew I was screwed. I cringed and tried to sneak passed. I bit my tongue for being so stupid. However, there was no whistling back my words. As I checked my tongue for blood, he started in full force with the dreaded 20-minute lecture. He said, “I have no cold! I am not sick! I am healed by the stripes of Jesus! You’re seeing the symptoms sent by the devil to deceive me!” All the while, he kept trying to get closer, and I kept backing up. Pretty soon, I was in the middle of the street. I was trying the best I could to keep my distance. I did NOT want to catch what he did NOT have.

A sudden coughing fit cut short the lecture. I used the opportunity to let one fly. I figured I already endured the lecture. So, as he stood there wheezing with his swollen watery eyes bulging, I said, “Is it against your religion to use a handkerchief? You’ve got green symptoms running all out your nose into your mustache.” As he crudely wiped his face with his sleeve, I gave him a head fake and double reverse. I didn’t stop until I was safely in the house.

Then there was the time my non-Freeman sister came to visit me during my senior year. She said, “You’re in college! Do you study this stuff? What do we do?” I told her I’d check, but I didn’t think Religious Lunatics 101 was in the university course catalog. Then I noticed tears welling up in her eyes. There was more here than I perceived. I just looked at her and waited until she was ready. She didn’t look up. With a small broken voice she said, “They tell me I have no rewards in heaven because I’m all about my family. They don’t understand. I’m weak. I don’t have their faith. If my kids get sick, I have to get them treated.” I laid my finger on her forehead. When she finally looked up, I said, “Do not let them do this to you! They have no faith. They know no truth. In fact, they’ve turned their backs on the truth they once knew. I hear their tapes. It’s one man’s bull****! It’ll pass. Until then laugh at them, they’re funny.”

I never seem to have much impact on people. Thankfully, I had impact on her that day. She never again let it bother her. Today, my sister is a fine Christian lady. Her children are responsible adults with families of their own. My nephew and I have shared many adventures together, including rescuing people and being shot.

Of course, part of what I told my sister that day was wrong. It never did pass for my ‘overcomer’ relatives. Those who are still living are still in bondage. It was also soon after the conversation with my sister that I began learning of the suffering and children dying. It forever stopped being funny.

micah

03-05-2007, 03:28 AM

wow,
truth.

healed

03-05-2007, 11:14 AM

Well I didnt know folks were out there that had to deal with this like I have. My story is much worse, but its comforting to know that others have had similiar experiences.

rachelengland

03-05-2007, 09:32 PM

passin thru- thank you for your stories and for all you have written here..I wish that I would have known other people who went thru similar experiences as mine-It might of kept me from feeling an incredible lonliness and a disappointment in God..such a strange world- such strange beliefs and all the guilt and worry that surrounds them...I still have to deal with feelings of guilt when I maybe have had a fall from grace or screwed up..wondering if my whole blessing in this life would be lost..

"christianity" comes in so many different forms and most of them seem shady...I am embarassed to this day to tell anyone publicly except on an internet forum (where nobody knows my name) how my mother died..why she wouldn't let doctors intervene and these "great men" who taught her these things....

Like I said the other day, men are criminals-not God and we still have so many of these criminals roaming thru churches today..R

(Message edited by rachelengland on March 05, 2007)

passin_thru

03-06-2007, 02:59 AM

Rachel, if you have read recent posts, then you know why I (and others) refuse to quote scripture. However, this is different.

Whenever I am feeling guilty, I often think on this passage:

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!… Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus…

THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION FOR RACHELENGLAND WHO IS IN CHRIST JESUS!

mark1124

03-06-2007, 12:17 PM

"THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION FOR RACHELENGLAND WHO IS IN CHRIST JESUS"

Neither is their condemnation for the overcomers in Christ Jesus. The losers do the condemnation, but not God.

rachelengland

03-06-2007, 03:52 PM

Passin Thru..those words meant a lot to me,such strength in them...Thank you

I encourage you to keep posting- you say things that hit home for many of us who have struggled with family members who were involved and supported ministries like Freeman's..

Many I am sure felt and still feel very helpless when their loved ones are involved in a cult. There was nothing I could of said that would change my mothers mind about healing and to be honest at that time I believed she would be healed- she seemed to be doing everything right-her faith was there, she never faultered or doubted- she was so brainwashed by this trash but hopefully passin-thru and others- your posts might help someone like myself who really felt the blame and the shame..R

(Message edited by rachelengland on March 06, 2007)

healed

03-07-2007, 11:23 AM

Yeah I have a relative doing the same thing, doing everything "right", of course the "right" is being defined by Hobart and post FA teachings. The sad thing is that these "right" things only lead to more misery and pain. They hang on to every word and really beleive that a miracle will happen, but the conditions worsen. Its a mess, but what can you do?

mark1124

03-07-2007, 12:04 PM

Another intelligent posting from the anti-Freemanite cult.

rachelengland

03-07-2007, 05:35 PM

healed..I know what you mean "what can ya do" they are the ones making the choices and they have that freedom but I am glad that somehow I found my way out of all this..I mean if this stuff gets ingrained early on -it's hard to see it any other way.R

(Message edited by rachelengland on March 07, 2007)

healed

03-08-2007, 11:17 AM

Like I mentioned before, there were two types of FA followers; the folks who really werent suffering but were lost or just naive and the other folks who had some really challenging issues in their life and the message that Hobart put out provided hope. The first group made the transistion to another way of life more easily than the second group. The Faith book that freeman put out made it all too easy for those who had those challenging life issues to claim their healing or to belive for the salvation of someone. In reality though, things got worse in the long run for many of these people. The Mark, Duncan, Hombre, Moulder crowd were probally from the first group and pick and choose what they want to belive from the Freeman archives. The people in the second group hang on to every word and hunker down.

rachelengland

03-08-2007, 06:43 PM

As in many cults things begin to worsen as the leader becomes more and more deceived and full of pride -then he falls and so does the kingdom around him...

Hobart Freeman followed the same teachings as did Hagin and Copeland than branched off because of some doctrinal differences(not pertaining to the healing doctrine).

mark1124

03-09-2007, 04:37 AM

Yes...that's correct...the JDS heresy for one. That, I think, was the major doctrine which caused Freeman to get away from those deceivers and taught the truth. If you listen to Copeland and Hagin, they have a trial-less Christianity...
They mocked a Christian having to die to self. I once heard Copeland saying, "You have these Christians dying to this and dying to that. All they are doing is dying, dying, dying. They are no good to anybody because they are dying somewhere." Wrong. Freeman taught it correctly, as usual. When we are dead to ourselves, the life of Christ lives through us and we are indeed good to others. Freeman was right again, as usual.

Next question please.

passin_thru

03-09-2007, 05:38 AM

Rachel/Healed, I agree there’s not much anyone can do for people once a cult becomes part of their soul. The terrible results of Faith Assembly are undeniable, and people have certainly showed it was one man’s BS.

Fortunately, Hobart Freeman was the type of cult that could only flourish as long as he lived. He won’t infect any more people. Unfortunately, hundreds of new cults start up each year.

My couple of ‘Freeman’ relatives still living will die with it like the others. They are utterly alone and quite wretched. They’re filled with contempt and superiority. They wear it like a crown (overcomer).

If that were heaven, I wouldn’t be a Christian.

rachelengland

03-09-2007, 04:19 PM

I agree passin -thru, cults will always be with us..false teachers and tricksters will come and go. And about your relatives being alone-that is what happens everyone else in the world gets pushed away because really the followers become impossible to relate too-they live in a whole different world(the world of overcomers.)

Mark1124, I am reminded of an old Copeland tune(since you seem to not care for him) it went something like this...

Mark 11:23 is real to me and Mark 11:24 is right next door... That's all I can remember right now. Kooky stuff I say and yet people fall for these guys hook...line..and SINKER!!!

(Message edited by rachelengland on March 09, 2007)

passin_thru

03-10-2007, 02:04 AM

I haven’t visited my two surviving ‘Freeman’ relatives for about eight years. The last visit was just to tell them of a death in the family. They started in about how they knew the person didn’t have faith to be healed. They said they would begrudgingly go to the funeral. However, because the person was divorced and remarried, they would not speak to the widow or acknowledge their new baby. The ironic thing was the dead individual was one of their own. The deceased was a fellow ‘overcomer’.

Anytime I went to see them, I was filled with apprehension. I was always on pins and needles. They would intentionally lay traps. Invariably, I would say the wrong thing or say it the wrong way. Then they were almost gleeful. Over the years, they’ve said: “He knows only love and Jesus. See the Bible passages he uses? They always use those to deceive. He never goes to the deeper verses of faith. We are waiting for God’s call. Others don’t need our help. Others need faith. Then they wouldn’t be in need.”

I’ve been hissed at, rebuked, told I was of the devil, warned of divine retribution and accused of trying to steal their heavenly rewards. On occasion when I absolutely couldn't take anymore and said, “Go to hell!” they were overjoyed with themselves: “He has a spirit of condemnation. He needs to repent. They always persecute God’s overcomers. More glory for us!” I swear sometimes I thought I was living a Stephen King novel.

I have a beautiful three-year-old granddaughter. She is a joy to behold. I look in her innocent big brown eyes and I can see the face of Jesus. My overcomer relatives don’t know she even exists. No one has told them because they could never approve of her. My daughter is a single parent.

My ‘non-Freeman’ relatives have agreed, per the likelihood of me outliving the two remaining overcomers, I will inherit all their precious Hobart Freeman books and tapes. I will burn them. It will be the fitting end to it.

hardbones

03-10-2007, 04:39 AM

Well for whatever it is worth and assuming the facts are as you state them... I would never treat anyone that way. I have relatives & friends that no longer follow the faith message and we all get together and pray for unsaved relatives and family issues etc.I go to their churches when something good is on. We fellowship spiritually.
We accept each other because we see Christ in each other in spite of our differences. If I ever get time I will post a little info on myself. I still follow the faith message but have a very strong standard of thinking for myself.

passin_thru

03-10-2007, 07:48 AM

Oh yes, do tell (if you can ever find the time), eh! Are you a Reformed Freemanite Overcomer, willing to talk with baby Christians as long as they know their place (their cup quarter filled to your cup runneth over)? Are you a semi-faith-walker, one who stops short of letting your teeth rot and children die? Which self-anointed prophet do you follow (dead Freeman, Copeland, Hinn, Price, Creflo Dollar, et al.)?

passin_thru

03-10-2007, 10:07 AM

Now that I’ve found a couple of your other posts in another thread (From a FA kid. How are the other FA kids doing?), I know where you’re coming from. You’re like another Canadian (Tomax7). Your delusion goes something like, “Gee, Hobart Freeman didn’t hurt me. He meant a lot to me. Oh sure, maybe a hundred people died, including Freeman himself (if you can believe police reports). Still, I just don’t think poor Hobart knew it was happening. I mean he probably didn’t know people were dying (like his own grandson). If you didn’t let the death and suffering bother you, FA was a real happening. In my book, FA was still the best darn cult ever!”

For your information, I posted facts. Two of my overcomer relatives died, and two more are still hunkered down with their precious Freeman tapes. Over the years, all the things I wrote were said to me. And yes, they would never want my granddaughter to step foot in their house. It’s their loss, not my granddaughter’s.

P.S. This one got to me. It’s time for me to bug out.

franklin

03-10-2007, 12:25 PM

This case is simple.

If you are sick, of course pray for God's healing. Ask your friends and family to pray for you also.

Take the proper medicine if need be. God provided the right herbs to activate his healing powers.

If the illness is serious enough go to a Doctor for examination, diagnosis and treatment. God has provided his knowledge and works through humans to perform his healing powers also. Use discernment in doing so. Doctors are human also. Not perfect as God is. Seek additional opinions from other Doctors if you have unanswered questions.

This act of love and caring includes for children and loved ones.

To not do the above is suicide. An abomination to God. To not do so for a child or a loved one is neglect, child abuse and if death occurs, at least manslaughter.

The case is simple.

hardbones

03-10-2007, 08:36 PM

Well I sure didn't mean it the way you took it. I posted that because you seemed a little more concilatory than the some of the others. I too have a 3 yr old grandaughter that was born out of wedlock and she sure is accepted around here. My appologies for offending you. I really and truely didn't intend to. Emotions run high here. I guess it I'll leave it to those of you who are interested in the fray.

passin_thru

03-10-2007, 10:13 PM

You’re right. It’s my fault. If I could, I would delete my last three posts. I should have never posted about my granddaughter. She’s too dear to me. It caused me to read much more into your post than you ever intended. Sorry!

Whenever I start thinking about this crap too much, it eventually gets to me. Maybe if I didn’t have loved ones still living a nightmare, it would be different. Suffice it to say, I’ll never be conciliatory to Hobart Freeman’s legacy.

I’m still planning to back out for a good long while. Everyone take care, you too Mark.

mark1124

03-11-2007, 11:55 AM

Oh gee...thanks

mark1124

03-11-2007, 12:42 PM

Hey franklin...good to see you posting again your wonderful wisdom. I wish that you could show me from the scriptures where you said,
"God provided the right herbs to activate his healing powers.

If the illness is serious enough go to a Doctor for examination, diagnosis and treatment. God has provided his knowledge and works through humans to perform his healing powers also. Use discernment in doing so. Doctors are human also. Not perfect as God is. Seek additional opinions from other Doctors if you have unanswered questions."

OK. I understand what you are saying.

Now please help me in my time of confusion here.

Question 1: Where in the scriptures does it say that God provided the right herbs to activate his healing powers? I thought He was all powerful and self sufficient?

Question 2: Where in scripture does it say that God has provided his knowledge and works through humans to perform his healing powers also? I thought the scriptures said that "I am the God that healeth thee?"

I will take your advice when you said, "Doctors are human also. Not perfect as God is. Seek additional opinions from other Doctors if you have unanswered questions." Well, I don't need a second opinion. God's opinion is all I seek. He says that I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. That answers any and all of my questions that I may have.

And since you said that doctors are human and not perfect as God is, why should we seek the imperfect when we have the perfect that provided healing in the atonement, unless you do not believe in that. Why did the Holy Spirit inspire James to write, Is any sick among you? let him call for the doctors - oh excuse me for my typo - I'm not used to the clock change yet - elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the (ehem) doctors (oh sorry about that) LORD (only - my comment and James' too) shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." James 5:14-15.

And what about good ole Doctor Luke. Let's not forget about that one. How many times in the NT do we read when someone was sick or dying that they called on Dr. Luke for healing? None, my friend. How many times did they trust the Lord and the Lord healed them? Every time. Hmmm...something is puzzling here.

Something else is puzzling to me here. Maybe it's because I lost an hour sleep due to the clocks changing. I dunno. Let's see. Medical information changes with the weather. First they say one thing, then change it. But thank God that the word of our Lord remains forever. It never changed throughout thousands of years like medical science. It still says that God is faithful and that He will heal us. Thank God we can depend on that and not the medical confusion that we get thrown at us everyday.

I have a third question: Hows comes medical doctors have to take out malpractice insurance? To protect themselves from getting sued for their mistakes, right? I never heard of God ever needing malpratice insurance because He is perfect and He makes no mistakes. Hmmm...you called it right franklin....the case is simple.

I love the human logic when you said, "This act of love and caring includes for children and loved ones. To not do the above is suicide. An abomination to God. To not do so for a child or a loved one is neglect, child abuse and if death occurs, at least manslaughter."

Hmm...I just wonder if it is an abomination to God not to trust Him all the way. Maybe if I go back to bed and get that hour's sleep that I missed I may be able to think clearly enough to understand your line of reasoning here. But to me, that sounds like human logic, not the wisdom of God.

But what do I know. I'm a dumb ole Freemanite.

franklin

03-11-2007, 01:11 PM

Yep, you are. A dumb ole Freemanite. And dumb ole Freeman died from gangrene by not going to a Doctor and seeking medical treatment and medicine. Shame is he KILLED too many others first with his heresy. None of that was God's will.

But you are not interested in doing God's will. Just Freeman's and satan's. It is satan's will that we all are destroyed. And your heresy is just another method for that to happen. You don't know spit about God's wisdom. Just the heresy of some damn fool who convinced more fools to commit suicide and to neglect their children and loved ones. Tantamount to manslaughter if not murder. Freeman was just another Dr. Kavorkian. You are not only preaching heresy but suicide.

mark1124

03-12-2007, 04:42 AM

HA HA HA HA.

I love your logic....not.

It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Without faith it is impossible to please the Lord.

God is the healer...not man.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto thy stupid logic. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your steps.

Hmm...heresy. I wonder what perversion of the Bible you are reading from, franklin. My Bible says that God heals and not man. My Bible says to trust God and not man. Are you reading out of one of those modern perversions to get your false doctrine of trusting man for your healing.
I guess you really are as close to the god you trust. And your god is the god of the medical deities. My God is the Creator of the universe.
Your idolatry of worshipping other gods is blasphemy in the sight of the Creator God.

Repent, while there is still time.

franklin

03-12-2007, 05:19 AM

You are the one who needs to repent buddy!

You are advocating that parents let their children die, let their loved ones die without medical treatment.

What is a Christian to do if their child's arm is cut off? Pray that God will miraculously reattach it?

No, the Holy Spirit will work through a Doctor to properly reattach the arm so that the child can live a complete, full life with the body that God created for them.

A soldier is shot in Iraq. Is the Chaplain supposed to just pray for that soldier who is bleeding to death or should a Army Doctor remove the bullet and stop the internal bleeding so that the soldier will live?

It's a no brainer. If you have a heart of Christian compassion.

But noooooo! You are the man worshipper. You've got your nose so far up a dead man's arse, that you worship as some kind of Prophet of God, more like a Prophet of Dog!

You are a dangerous dude mark! Very dangerous!

I read the KJV and no where in there does it say that we should not seek medical treatment.

The heresy you preach is of the devil. Get behind me satan!

micah

03-12-2007, 05:47 AM

go franklin!
truth.

healed

03-12-2007, 12:36 PM

"And what about good ole Doctor Luke. Let's not forget about that one. How many times in the NT do we read when someone was sick or dying that they called on Dr. Luke for healing? None, my friend. How many times did they trust the Lord and the Lord healed them? Every time. Hmmm...something is puzzling here".

Jesus Christ used divine healing and the ability to cast out devils in order to get the crowds to believe he was the son of God. Im sure that Lazurus or others that were healed continued to seek medical attention after their divine miracle happened. The purpose of the the miracle was to prove that this stranger was the son of God. I dont remember reading about any of the apostles doing any miracles while Jesus was walking the earth, it was only after his resurection and then the purpose was to prove that Jesus was really the son of God. This is where the new testament is vague, it doesnt tell us not to seek out medical treatments. Hobart took it upon himself to teach this message of faith healing and it was very dangerous teritory to be getting into. If he believed this about the bible, then he and he alone should of walked that line because the new testament doesnt condemn anyone for going to the doctors for treatment. This is where Mark and the other ones are distorting the scriptures. The bible has to be looked at in its whole context, and there are even books left out. As I get older, I can see where Freeman and others read too much into it all.

duncan

03-12-2007, 10:34 PM

Hello all!

Looks like the board has been resurrected from the dead. For some reason, I haven't received an email from Factnet on all the new posts, so I had some catching up to do. - Does this happen to anyone else?

I just had the opportunity to be in Indiana on business and took the opportunity to check out my old stomping ground a few miles from the old FA building and the Glory Barn chimney. I also had the opportunity to spend some time with the wife of one of the former associate pastors back in the day. It was a very interesting and eye opening visit.

She stated that HEF had been battling diabetes during the last several years of his life. The uclerated foot he had was the result of a new pair of shoes he bought that wore a blister in his foot. Due to the poor circulation from diabetes, his foot became seriously infected, and the rest is history. She told me that an autopsy was done on him (something I never knew) and that it stated the official cause of death was complications from diabetes.

They also suspected that his diabetes began to affect his thinking during the final stages, making him more paranoid. She told me that at one point, so many people were calling on her husband, along with the other associate pastor, for anointing of oil, that HEF got up at one meeting and told the congregation that we ought to be beyond James 5 and not have to call for the elders of the church for healing. When her husband was asked later about HEF's comment, he replied "Honey, just stick with what the Word says and you can't go wrong." I thought that was an amazing story, so I thought I would pass it along.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Duncan

duncan

03-12-2007, 10:39 PM

duncan

03-12-2007, 10:46 PM

duncan

03-12-2007, 11:04 PM

hombre

04-02-2007, 04:23 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

FROM HEALED: 1. ) Jesus Christ used divine healing and the ability to cast out devils in order to get the crowds to believe he was the son of God. 2. ) Im sure that Lazurus or others that were healed continued to seek medical attention after their divine miracle happened. 3. )The purpose of the the miracle was to prove that this stranger was the son of God. 4. ) I dont remember reading about any of the apostles doing any miracles while Jesus was walking the earth, it was only after his resurection and then the purpose was to prove that Jesus was really the son of God. 5. ) This is where the new testament is vague, it doesnt tell us not to seek out medical treatments. 6. )Hobart took it upon himself to teach this message of faith healing and it was very dangerous teritory to be getting into. If he believed this about the bible, then he and he alone should of walked that line because the new testament doesnt condemn anyone for going to the doctors for treatment. 7.) This is where Mark and the other ones are distorting the scriptures. 8.) The bible has to be looked at in its whole context, and there are even books left out. As I get older, I can see where Freeman and others read too much into it all.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

HOLY MACKEREL......where to begin......where to begin....OK. We'll start with #1. That is your opinion, and partially true. However, time and again, He also rebuked or praised men on the basis of THEIR faith. When he encountered unbelief, as in His own home town, He marveled, and went about TEACHING them...why? so they could have FAITH to believe ( Mark 6: 6 ). 2. ) Yeah, right. Once Lazarus was raised from the dead, I'm sure that he went to the nearest local immediate care facility to make sure that God didn't botch up his healing, and frankly, that's just speculation on your part anyway...I can't imagine someone coming through an experience like that and still trusting doctors for deliverance from sickness and disease. Besides, you forgot to mention the woman with the issue of blood who had spent all she had on physicians and didn't get better, only worse. Curiously enough, Mark tells us the story, and LUKE THE PHYSICIAN backs him up.( Mark 5 : 25-29,Luke 8 : 43-44 ).

hombre

04-02-2007, 04:25 PM

3. )Again, partially true. Most theologians use that verse to show the compassion of Christ, in the shortest and one of the most powerful verses in the Bible: 'Jesus wept.'...even the unbelieving Jews said " behold how He loved him!', and they believed when they saw. I don't so much have issue with your idea that the miracles that Christ did demonstrated His Deity, as I have issue that He did things in order to get people to believe on HIm. Christ would not draw attention to HImself for the purpose of ego demonstration, as men would. He demonstrated the love and compassion within His heart, through FAITH, which He taught CONTINUOUSLY during His ministry, in order that those who followed Him and believe on Him would do the same ( John 14 : 12 ). You see, Healed, the Bible is VERY specific, and it is of NO private interpretation (1 Ptr. 1: 20 )...you and your unbelieving friends simply chose to ignore the parts you don't like, or hide behind some thin veil of deceit spawned by the illusion sponsored by denominationalists and their ilk, that we need an 'informed and responsible' clergy to discern the meaning of scriptures for us....namely unbelief in the clarity of the Word of God. 4.) OK. We'll start with Peter, who after his triple denial of Christ, went on to heal the sick WITH HIS SHADOW (Acts 5 : 11-16, note also that many other miracles were wrought by the hands of the apostles, and many were brought from the cities and towns about, and THEY WERE HEALED, EVERY ONE ) and RAISED THE DEAD (Acts 9 : 36-42 )...proving once again, as I've said before....that there is still hope for you Healed. 5.) no it doesn't, but neither does it have ONE positive thing to say about it, and the only time medical science is spoken of it is negative. Note, however, that the Bible does instruct us on what to do if a Christian becomes ill: 'Is there any sick among you? LET HIM CALL FOR THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, and LET THEM PRAY OVER HIM, ANOINTING HIM WITH OIL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD ( That would be JESUS THE CHRIST ), AND THE PRAYER OF FAITH SHALL SAVE THE SICK, AND THE LORD SHALL RAISE HIM UP.... ( James 5 : 14-15 )......6. ) Yes, he did. He lived and died by it....... how does that change what the Bible says?. No the Bible doesn't condemn anyone for going to doctors. I also remember Jesus not condemning a woman for adultery either, yet reminded her not to continue, or lest worse could come upon her. Hospitals are not only places where one can go for treatment of various things, but also warehouses of every imaginable disease. I'll also mention the superviruses they have produced through the overuse and prevalency of antibiotic treatments and leave that tainted galaxy with thoughtful distance......

hombre

04-02-2007, 04:27 PM

7. )Yeah, yeah, yeah...that is where you are conveniently ignoring the difficult scriptures. I'll give you and your buddies this much, Healed: Those ARE some difficult scriptures to be sure, but denying them is not gonna change them. Why don't you go ahead and write yourself a 'new' Bible like so many others have, that won't challenge or offend you?....8. ) oh, I see that is what you have already considered. Apparently the early learned church councils who walked in the footsteps of Jesus, didn't know as much as you, in selecting the books to become canonical. You, Joseph Smith, the Catholics ( et al ) can all have your 'other Jesus' and your 'other gospel', but that is what it will be. While you're at it, you may want to write in drunkeness, revelry, fornication and adultery, homosexuality, bigamy, zoophilia, evolution etc., so that you can have a church that won't offend anyone...........no point in being bound up legally is there?......after all, there are some out there saying that Jesus illegitimately fathered children with Mary Magdalene, and others who contend that Jesus was a homosexual. Hey, Unhealed...this is a free country...you can say whatever you want, and believe whatever you want....just one little problem: that don't make it Bible.

healed

04-04-2007, 12:58 PM

Yeah, well the difference between you and me is that I dont need somebody else (i.e. Hobart) to read something into the verse that wasnt there to begin with. You spent the last 3 post defending a Freeman inspired take on the verse. Jesus wanted people to have faith that he was the son of God, so he had to do miracles to show them. Thats all there is too it for me. I dont need to take that and twist it into something its not. There isnt enough there to support anything else without going off the deep end with it like your idol Freeman did.

mark1124

04-05-2007, 05:36 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif

micah

04-06-2007, 06:25 AM

"I don't so much have issue with your idea that the miracles that Christ did demonstrated His Deity, as I have issue that He did things in order to get people to believe on HIm. Christ would not draw attention to HImself for the purpose of ego
demonstration, as men would. He demonstrated the love and compassion within His heart, through FAITH, which He taught CONTINUOUSLY during His ministry, in order that those who followed Him and believe on Him would do the same" - HOMBRE (my favorite legal Hispanic)

The reason for these miracles WAS for Christ to draw attention to himself, it was NOT just out of a love for the people and FAITH.

Thats where HEF is dead wrong.

The WHOLE ENTIRE life and ministry of Jesus was all about the fulfillment of the scriptures. He was the coming King (which is what the word Christ means)
And he did everything that he did to prove that he was that King, That he was the fulfillment of the covenants of scripture, that he was the Messiah that Israel had been waiting for, THIS IS THE MESSAGE OF THE BIBLE.

The Bible is NOT what great things Jesus did because he had great faith, and how we should do great things to show off how much bigger my faith is than jon holmes' faith. In other words the bible is not a measuring stick, its not the roadmap to personal peace and happiness and escaping any (but especially) the great tribulation.
The bible is ALL about, over and over and over again, REDEMPTION.
About how God created Man, man fell, and how God has set about a plan and how he is restoring the relationship lost with mankind. That is the story of the WHOLE bible (in a nutshell)

But there are some people that want to ignore certain parts and make the bible into a ••••••• contest about how much faith you have?}}}

hombre

04-06-2007, 05:41 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

But there are some people that want to ignore certain parts and make the bible into a ••••••• contest about how much faith you have?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I suppose there are those that you would be correct in saying that about. I'm not one of them; however, the purpose of becoming ' a son of God' through Christ is to 'grow up into Him in ALL things' ( Eph. 4:15 ). Christ queried the believers with a quote from the OT when He said: Is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS? ( John 10:34 / Psalm 82:6 ). How many times must we quote the scriptures that show Jesus the Christ rebuking and confronting disciples for their lack of faith, only to be ignored and tossed aside as though John 3:16 is important and believeable, but nothing else is? The problem confronting Christianity today IS the lack of faith to even begin to believe the simple and direct promises of God, and the failure to realize that we ARE the sons of God through faith in Jesus the Christ, and act accordingly. It is far easier to sit in a pew and fulfill a religious obligation of attendance, that it is to seek out answers for these issues within ones' own heart.

johiyom

09-05-2007, 07:14 PM

James talks about the tongue, the mouth, our words. Interesting. This whole subject is a double edged sword.
While we have freedom of speech under the Constitution of U.S. it is still against the law to go into a restaurant, movie theatre, or other public place and yell out, "FIRE"! causing a panic. So in that sense, yes, the leadership, including Hobart, are responsible for the deaths at Faith Assembly. The logical conclusion of people seeking to live the message Hobart preached is self-evident. He was responsible. I was 18 years old first coming into this message
/movement.Young, naive, gullible. Ultimately I had to deal with my own responsibility but somehow I still believe the adult leadership of Faith Assembly, if they had been mature and wise enough, were not guiltless. They could have
guided and balanced things. And do you know what it was that could have tempered this?: LOVE, the greatest of these. I Cor. 13. Nothing wrong with faith, nothing wrong with hope...all necessary and important, but LOVE was relegated to compromise, weakness, sentimentality, a sign of a watered-down message. Their love waxed COLD. And in the end, though they understood supposedly deep things, though they had the gifts of prophecy, though they had ALL faith to move mountains, it was WITHOUT LOVE, so in the end it meant nothing, it solved nothing, it accomplished nothing but travesty.

johiyom

09-05-2007, 07:16 PM

James talks about the tongue, the mouth, our words. Yes, we are responsible for what we say, especially publically. Interesting. This whole subject is a double edged sword.
While we have freedom of speech under the Constitution of U.S. it is still against the law to go into a restaurant, movie theatre, or other public place and yell out, "FIRE"! causing a panic. So in that sense, yes, the leadership, including Hobart, are responsible for the deaths at Faith Assembly. The logical conclusion of people seeking to live the message Hobart preached is self-evident. He was responsible. I was 18 years old first coming into this message
/movement.Young, naive, gullible. Ultimately I had to deal with my own responsibility but somehow I still believe the adult leadership of Faith Assembly, if they had been mature and wise enough, were not guiltless. They could have
guided and balanced things. And do you know what it was that could have tempered this?: LOVE, the greatest of these. I Cor. 13. Nothing wrong with faith, nothing wrong with hope...all necessary and important, but LOVE was relegated to compromise, weakness, sentimentality, a sign of a watered-down message. Their love waxed COLD. And in the end, though they understood supposedly deep things, though they had the gifts of prophecy, though they had ALL faith to move mountains, it was WITHOUT LOVE, so in the end it meant nothing, it solved nothing, it accomplished nothing but travesty.

johiyom

09-06-2007, 04:36 AM

Everytime the leadership of the JW's started teaching and predicting the coming of Armageddon and Jesus, then when it didn't happen, they made up some excuse or new doctrine to cover it, back peddling, and went so far as to blame the followers for it. People gave up jobs, quit school, didn't prepare for college or retirement, gave up marriage to throw themselves into kingdom work. Had no health insurance, life policies, reduced to abject poverty. A host of tragedies occurred because of this teaching. The leaders blamed it on the people and their misguided zeal. The leadership NEVER would accept any responsibility whatsoever for the damage they caused in people's lives and went right on ahead, like locomotives, barrelling down the track, peddling their delusions. No apologies. Teachers will indeed receive a stricter, severer judgment for what they teach.
James 3

hombre

09-06-2007, 03:35 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

PhoneyYom: Teachers will indeed receive a stricter, severer judgment for what they teach. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....and deceivers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived...make no doubt about it, PhoneyYom, denying the words of the Lord and teaching others to do likewise is no small thing.

johiyom

09-06-2007, 04:48 PM

hombre, you are a hateful, sarcastic, bitter person filled with rage toward anyone who disagrees with some of the things taught by Hobart Freeman and FA. You delight in cruelly attacking anyone who doesn't "toe the line" and who questions the validity of things that were taught or the manner in which they were taught.
You exemplify no humility or patience toward anyone. You can't seem to just discuss or debate without resorting to hostility, personal slurs, name calling, belittling, and vengeance.
I would go so far as to say you are mentally and emotionallly unstable and do not manifest the fruits of the Spirit that a Deeper Life is supposed to produce toward others. Even Hobart himself would rebuke you in Jesus' Name.

hombre

09-06-2007, 04:54 PM

Uh-huh. Get thee behind me, satan.

..interesting that you should call forth the help from the dead, that you so vehemently denounce.

johiyom

09-06-2007, 05:15 PM

As usual, everybody is of the devil and deceived who questions these things. There's not a shred of reason and civility in you. Do you denounce everything mark1124 says where he has posted some "disagreements"? Do you denounce Tom McLaughlin on his Tomax site, where he is questioning some things and just seeking to come to a more balanced viewpoint and application of what was taught? He speaks of legalism, pride, etc. And while he doesn't believe FA was a cult he does say that one can "justify" that a cult mentality crept in. So I don't agree with everything he or mark1124 may say but there are things I do agree with in their posts. You just can't stand it that people have legitimate questionings. I believe God called and used Hobart Freeman but he eventually ventured down a destructive path. He changed. His emphasis changed. His focus changed and it hurt a lot of people. Have you not an ounce of compassion for the people with their many posts on the Tomax site and here, devastated by these problems?
I, for one, do. Much good came from FA but much bad. I am not afraid to face and admit the bad.

johiyom

09-06-2007, 05:32 PM

Kindness. Grace-unmerited favor, something people could never hope to deserve or earn.
I pray that you experience a brokeness of spirit and weep tears before the Lord, experiencing nothing but GRACE.

odysseus

09-06-2007, 06:47 PM

Hombre is definitely emotionally unstable. He’s also a pseudo intellectual and a coward. He’s one of those kinds of people that wakes up in the morning wondering who’s life he can try to mentally mess up next. Folks like Hombre usually have lives without purpose and lack friends.

In his case he has a failed marriage and his children are estranged from him. However it looks like he got remarried recently. God help his new wife. I wonder if she knows about his posting here.

It’s too bad about him, he’ll end up proving the old adage, ‘What goes around comes around’.

hombre

09-06-2007, 08:47 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

PhoneyYom: There's not a shred of reason ...... in you. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I don't reason with the devil, that's how you got where you're at.

hombre

09-06-2007, 08:50 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

PhoneyYom: I pray that you experience a brokeness of spirit and weep tears before the Lord, experiencing nothing but GRACE.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...and I pray that you may experience repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth that is in the gospel of Jesus the Christ, ya self-righteous twirp.

hombre

09-06-2007, 08:52 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Odd Suess Creature: Hombre is definitely emotionally unstable.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

..the same to ya dorkwad.

passin_thru

09-07-2007, 04:14 AM

Hombre, you are out of control. You’re claiming other Christians are of the devil and posting childish personal attacks. It’s unbecoming, even for an ‘overcomer’. You’re life seems centered on defending and believing a dead man. From having overcomers in my own family, I can well imagine what it’s cost you over the years. Regardless whether Hobart Freeman was good or bad, get past him and go on with your life already.

The current pastor of my church is a good man trying to lead a lackluster congregation to a richer understanding in the Lord Jesus Christ. However, I feel no need to defend the man tooth and nail should someone dislike him. He wouldn’t even feel a need to defend himself. If the negative opinion were unfounded, he’d shrug it off. If the criticism were legitimate, he’d make amends. He’s not too proud to admit error.

I’m trying to say your defense (as a Christian) of Hobart Freeman is unwarranted. He’s dead. Don’t let him rule your life until you die, as my poor misguided relatives have done. Don’t let him take away your friends, family and capacity to fellowship with others. There’s simply more to life and God than Hobart Freeman and Mark 11:24.

FACTNet is a place where people post their stories, good or bad. However, I’ve never read where you’ve posted your personal story. Instead, like all other overcomers I’ve known, your personal life is closed off from others. Your posts are just filled with hatred, judgment and condemnation for anyone whose non-Freemanite. Your posts are not a rational defense of your beloved teacher. Rather, your posts are proof positive that something was very very wrong with Hobart Freeman, FA and what people become from following his teachings.

micah

09-07-2007, 09:51 AM

This site is poison to me. This site challenges me to love Hombre. I struggle as to whether or not I can do that. On the one hand I want to because Jesus said to love even your enemies, while I dont view Hombre as my personal enemy, I view some of his beliefs as being polar opposite to what Jesus taught. Jesus taught love. I say that I love Jesus, but I have a really hard time saying that I love Hombre.....

Why?

I think I could spend the rest of my life trying to come to terms with FA. The abuse, the BS. I wont find healing for that on this site, or any other for that matter.

The Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus ushered in and commanded us to take by force, is not taken by argument, or "my theology trumps yours"

It is taken by love. (argue that hombre)

That is why this site is poison to me. I could spend time arguing with a washed up remnant of a faith cult dismembered by Gods grace, or do the thing Jesus asked me to do (feed the hungry, clothe the poor, go to jail...)

I choose the feed the hungry thing, let God sort out the rest.

If I do what he told me to do nothing else matters. (HHHMM...)
Sounds allot like faith.

Faith Assembly was poison to me.

It almost makes me hate the word "faith".

johiyom

09-07-2007, 04:50 PM

Beating and Driving The Flock of God Is Not A Pastor's Heart. hombre reminds me of this. }
Passin-thru, it sounds like your pastor is truly a good man as a pastor with a pastor's heart.

Luke 12:42-ff And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

hombre

09-07-2007, 04:57 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

PhoneyYom: Beating and Driving The Flock of God Is Not A Pastor's Heart. hombre reminds me of this<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Doubt and unbelief is not an admirable virtue for a Christian. PhoneyYom reminds me of this.

odysseus

09-07-2007, 05:05 PM

Being a craven coward and a drive-by insulter isn’t either.

hombre

09-07-2007, 05:08 PM

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:

Michelob: while I dont view Hombre as my personal enemy, I view some of his beliefs as being polar opposite to what Jesus taught. Jesus taught love. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

1. Yes, you are right, and I have taught you and others to hate people. Sure, I can see that...just show me the post number where you found that statement.

2. Jesus taught love. So does Oprah and the Pope. Where in your mind then, is the love of this God you say you worship, when He declares that He is going to send multitudes to hell to burn for eternity, for the simple problem of sin in their lives, which we have all committed, and for not understanding that Jesus is the only way in? Isn't that being just a little judgemental on His part? ....perhaps you haven't met the God of the Bible yet, or you just like swallowing the easy stuff. God is love....but the same book says that He is also a consuming fire. I don't think that the Pope is gonna like that when he finds out that Mary wasn't the one he shoulda been praying to....and I don't think that Jesus appreciates you and the rest of the clowns here perverting His word, and teaching others to do likewise.

johiyom

09-08-2007, 05:55 AM

hombre, how do you feel about Steve Hill, now that he preaches about the love of the Father for us? I guess that wouldn't be enough rod and whip for your taste. Is he on your list of apostates and unbelievers who've departed from the "faith"?

micah

09-08-2007, 06:14 AM

Hey I like Michelob..(mmmm beer)

So you (Hombre and ilk) view God as being a person in the sky that is waiting to spew fire forth from his mouth on every unbeliever.

OK fair enough.

Back that up with how Jesus lived.

The only fire he spewed forth from his mouth was directed at the religious people that "knew it all"

johiyom

09-08-2007, 06:26 AM

Here's what one of the people had to say concerning Hobart:

"I don't view FA as a cult because none of the primary doctrines of the faith were denied. I don't ever remember Hobart Freeman asking for money and even taking up daily collections because he didn't want people to give for the wrong reasons, i.e. someone watching them as the basket was passed. I think Brother Freeman sincerely taught what he felt was the uncompromising word of God, and I truly believe he is with the Lord right now. But I also believe he slipped out of balance as the criticism grew louder from the rest of the community. I remember when we were listening to tapes in Boise hearing him say, "If this teaching is too difficult for you to receive, then put it on the shelf and pray about it". Then the day came several years later when putting something on the shelf was tantamount to apostasy! The tone of the message grew increasingly intolerant of different points of view. There was only one truth, and Faith Assembly had it!" Bart

I just believe that FA did become cultic because of this authoritarianism, legalism, intolerance, etc. These harsh attitudes, such as hombre exemplifies. A rod and whip yielded to try to drive people into faith and conformity to every jot and tittle of what was being taught. A cult or cultic characteristics, to me, has more to do with just the primary doctrines of the Christian Faith.

The leadership of FA was responsible.