From Freeman To Freemind

[johiyom]

Was FA a cult?It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman. Authoritarianism,legalism.Similarities between FA and JW's.Let's define the word,cult.See: http://www.freeminds.org/fmi_faq1.htm
Here are two books:
A Life of Trials,Tragedies,and Triumphs,Gordon Lindsay.Story of John Alexander Dowie.Similar parallels in the fixations of Freeman.It would have been better to simply preach the gospel,pray for the sick and let God heal(signs following)to confirm,rather than preach against doctors.There's a difference between medical healing and divine healing but it's not a sin to help people.The teaching of Freeman legalistically tried to bring about healing at the expense of common sense.Sick people need hope not condemned for going to doctors. Attacking medicine doesn't produce faith.
FA spent time denouncing instead of demonstrating.FA had the mindset of the disciples in John 9.They saw a blind man and were more concerned about what sin had been committed rather than simply healing the man.Jesus didn't debate sin-he healed.FA couldn't do that so they got entangled trying to figure out what sin or demon was responsible,etc.According to FA disciples,Hobart died to go home to be with the Lord-no fault was found,while others had an evil eye focused on them for their failures.
Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz-former governing body member of the Watchtower.This cult destroyed people's lives.
Matt.9;Mk.5;Lk.8 The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science.The incident is there to show the hopelessness of her condition,desperation; that Jesus healed her through determined faith.By the way,she didn't subsequently have to go through deliverance from medical science demons.To believe in them is as farfetched as the war in hell story of JDS teachers.They're only in the fertile imagination of FA.
Matt.9 doesn't mention physicians.Mark 5 is the only place where we're told she suffered at the hands of physicians.Luke 8 says she spent all her living on physicians.John doesn't mention the story at all.Hobart himself used the argument in Did Jesus Die Spiritually p.40 that since only two of the gospel writers recorded the Ps.22:1 passage,total abandonment of Jesus by the Father wasn't true.Had it been true he assumes all 4 gospels would have recorded it.Since the woman with the issue of blood story is in only 3 of the 4 gospels,and since only one of them tells us she suffered at the hands of physicians,one says she spent all she had on physicians,and the other doesn't mention the physicians at all,how then could Hobart and FA use this as a crucial prooftext to outright condemn doctors/ medical science, and to psychologically put pressure and fear in Christians not to seek medical help?He elevated
"thou shalt not go to a doctor" to a doctrine to be wrapped around the necks of believers.He made people think they weren't even saved if they went to get help.FA members showed no compassion.
Col.4:14Paul calls Luke a BELOVED PHYSICIAN.
It's not a sin to be a doctor.Yes,all Luke reported in his inspired writings(Luke,Acts)is the power of God to heal people but the fact remains he was still identified by Paul as a physician.Paul mentioned one of his opposers as Alexander the coppersmith(II Tim.4:14).Does that mean the profession itself is somehow evil?Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs.

[johiyom]

How I found balance and freedom concering "The Christmas Issue" of Hobart:
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/holidays.htm
Like Jehovah's Witnesses,FA made an issue out of the celebration of Christmas,to isolate members from friends, family and even other true sincere born again Christians.All this did was bring further divisions between true believers. It's not a sin to celebrate Christmas.If you don't want to celebrate it, then don't(Romans 14) but don't condemn other people for it.
However,you shouldn't even be living your life by a calendar, since it's pagan in origin too.
Legalism like this just produce hypocrisy and contradictions because you can always find something in this life that has pagan origins. Hobart and FA violated other people's consciences by making issues out of things like Christmas.

[johiyom]

Hobart had no right, no authority and no business getting involved with public teachings in regards to the private, personal, intimate sexual practices of married couples. Matt. 19:6; Hebrews 13:4 The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did this and destroyed people's marriages.

[johiyom]

Positive Thinking and Confession is really nothing more than Christian Science in a new dress, no matter how Hobart and FA defended it. Read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin to start with.
The fruit proves it. Hobart and his followers couldn't positively think and confess away sickness and disease any more than Mary Baker Eddy could by actually denying the reality and existence of sickness and disease in the first place. Hagin, Copeland, Kenyon and the rest have their take on this practice, and Hobart and FA had their's. In fact, Hobart more than likely got it from Hagin after becoming charismatic, and it is not a balanced view of Biblical Christianity. He just took it further, went out on a limb with it to extremes in regards to divine healing.

[johiyom]

Hypocrisy: Hobart preached against doctors. He belittled people for wearing glasses; at least things like this were implied if not explicity stated in FA teachings. Yet, he himself wore an orthopedic shoe because one of his legs was shorter than the other due to polio. If it was a lack of faith to wear glasses, then it was a lack of faith to wear a lift shoe. I am not aware that he threw his shoe away, believing God for healing. If he did, then I stand corrected.
When Hobart died one of the five-fold ministers said it was a Job's trial for Hobart. It may have been a Job's trial for his wife or the church, but certainly not for Hobart. He was dead. Job got healed in the Bible. God restored everything he'd lost and his health. You can't use Job and call Hobart's death a Job's trial for him. And he wasn't raised from the dead.
FA taught you shouldn't get immunizations for your children, but it was OK to get them if you were a big cheese five-folder travelling to another country to spread the Word of God/End-Time Message of Faith....just rebuke the effects. After all, you don't want those medical science demons to get the upper hand on you. This is lying, double standards, contradiction. Sounds like the fast ones the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has pulled over the decades.. Come on, people, this is obviously ridiculous. Can't you see through this kind of deception?

[johiyom]

FA implied in it's message that going to college and working for the government in a government job was wrong, yet Hobart went to college and seminary. Many of the followers gave up jobs and their kids didn't prepare for college and higher education to find their place in society like they should have. I know one man who thought just about every job out there was "unscriptural". I got to the place in my life where I thought: "Hell, just being alive is unscriptural. I might as well go live on the moon. How can I be prosperous if I can't work anywhere and support my family?" Hobart and his wife worked in a group home while either he was in college or attending seminary. I don't remember the details on that. I later found this passage of Scripture: Romans 16:23. A Roman city treasurer/chamberlain was a disciple and believer.No conflict, no contradiction.No issue being made of it. Hobart should have stuck with what he taught in Charimatic Body Ministry, that people are called to serve and glorify God in whatever field or profession they find themselves. This includes government positions, scientists, biologists, doctors and nurses, etc. There were even believers in the Roman Army. Acts10. This obviously doesn't mean be a prostitute or drug dealer for Jesus. But Hobart had no business dictating or "doctrinizing" the personal lives and professions of Christians.

[johiyom]

There are probably still people who hang on Hobart's every word like those who follow William Branham's message and ministry in Bible Believers Churches. Some of these fanatics believed Branham would rise from the dead like some of the FA members. They think nobody else could possibly have any truth. I remember hearing some of the FA members always saying, "Brother Freeman said this and Brother Freeman said that. That's what Brother Freeman says." To this day I don't give a "RA"(rat's <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>) what Brother Freeman said about everything, claiming it to be nothing but the pure Word of God, strong meat, deeper truth or whatever it was supposed to be. He wasn't right about everything in the Bible. He didn't die for your sins. He won't be sitting on the Judgment Seat of Christ judging you or trying your works. We weren't following Jesus or glorifying God by putting every word he spoke and his opinions on par with Scripture and absolute and final truth. It did not further the Gospel by putting this man on a pedastal.

[johiyom]

Acts 5:34-39
Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I think what happened to FA, a church of 2000 people, after Hobart's death proves there was something fundamentally wrong with it. The vast majority of people were following a man and not the Lord. It could have been a great church, bringing light and hope to a suffering world. By preaching against every Christian denomination outside itself, it BECAME just another denomination with cult characteristics and tendencies. Authoritarianism, extremism, legalism, irrational thought processes, and the lacking of common sense.

[johiyom]

I do not believe anymore that the denominational churches are Babylon as Hobart taught. In the book of Revelation we are told of the 7 churches of Asia. Each had it's strengths, weaknesses, attributes and faults. Throughout history since Christianity's birth these types of characteristics can be found in every church or every church age, as some believe.. Even heresy, false doctrine, error are found in true churches; but, they're still the church, not Babylon, later mentioned in the book of Revelation. The angels or messengers to these churches are in Christ's right hand. God is in control. There is real Christianity, truth and life outside of Faith Assembly and Hobart's teachings. Jesus Christ cannot be limited to one man or one group. The Church of Jesus Christ somehow managed to exist and survive over 2000 years before Hobart Freeman or FA ever came along on the scene to fix it. With all it's faults God still loves the church or churches. They represent the Body of Christ, his Bride. In trying to tell everybody else what was wrong with their church Hobart and FA failed to see what was wrong with their own. I believe Jesus Himself would have good things to say about FA, but he would also have some negative things against it and some sound rebukes. He loves Hobart, he loves the people from FA. For people like me to point out some of the problems does not mean we don't love them or that we are of the devil.
I'm sure there will be those who defend Hobart and his teachings tooth and toenail- to the bitter end- but I only feel sorry for them. Denial and justification don't change the facts.

[johiyom]

If anyone would like to post what changes you witnessed from Hobart's Claypool pre-Baptism of the Holy Spirit days, to the Glory Barn Days, to the FA warehouse in a cornfield Days, please share with us. There were good things about the movement but I believe the bad eventually outweighed and overshadowed the good that was left. Tell us the good and the bad. Be honest with yourself first and then with us.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pentecostal, Charismatic Movement all over the world is of God but oftentimes what men are doing with it and what goes on in the name of it is NOT of God.

[johiyom]

Here are some other topics of interest surrounding Hobart and FA:
Earrings and pierced ears( I am a man and have both ears pierced now. I am of Native American descent and attend Pow Wows, wear my regalia and dance in the circle honoring my ancestors and culture). This wouldn't have been tolerated.

Women and Makeup- some of you women need a little makeup.
Women wearing pants-religious groups run by a bunch of men always seem to legislate women's clothing.
Headcoverings-I have my doubts about his take on this in I Cor. 11
Adida tennis shoes-maybe Hobart shouldn't have worn neck ties. Aren't they phallic symbols?
T-shirts with Logos.
Sports- Paul used a Roman soldier's gear,something a gladiator might wear, to describe the whole armor of God.
TVs- How many of you read newspapers or magazines? Oh, that's right, the five-fold ministers had to watch a little TV in order to keep up with things and bring timely messages from the Lord to the congregation.
Songs in minor keys vs. major(I was a music major in college. Hobart needed to admit his ignorance because he didn't know what he was talking about) Much of the Messianic Jewish music is in minor keys and different modes in praise to God. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil with minor key music. This is ridiculous.
The fact that FA had relatively few people of minority involved in it- the actual FA church and it's satellite associate groups. If it was ALL truly of God then like on the Day of Pentecost there should have been people of every color and nationality and tongue of the nation of Israel who had gathered at Jerusalem. Yes, I'm gonna make a racial issue about it. He had messages on God's Answer to the Racial Problem with some token folks offering testimony but I don't buy into him and his bigoted five-fold ministers. I remember visiting FA and people looking at me like I was from some other planet. Excuse my language but some of you were nothing more than ignorant, redneck white folks living in the cornfields of Indiana, hiding from the rest of the world. With your headcoverings and granny dresses(we jokingly referred to them as church uniforms)you might as well have been Amish Charismatics, Old Order German Baptist or Mennonite Charismatics.. How about Muslims or Catholic Nuns? I laugh now at what used to cause me heartache. Calling yourselves free in Christ and just as much in bondage as the folks you criticized.

Apostolic Baptism in Jesus' Name- I came from a Jesus Only Church before getting involved with Hobart's teachings. After reading Gordon Lindsay's book on the Triunity of God I have my doubts about the dogmatism of Oneness Pentecostal water baptism even though Hobart refuted their view on the Godhead.

Hobart and FA constituted a pick and choose religious social club-they picked and chose what to make doctrinal issues out of, calling it deeper truth, strong meat, etc. I now call it self-deception.

[healed]

"but it was OK to get them if you were a big cheese five-folder travelling to another country to spread the Word of God/End-Time Message of Faith....just rebuke the effects"

Never knew that one...but it makes sense. How could they of traveled without them? That one was covered up for sure.

Welcome to the forum! You have certainly done your homework. You gave Hombre something to chew on, Im sure he is at a loss for words right about now. I think where FA did the most damage was in family homes, where someone perhaps had lost hope due to an illness or a spousal abuse problem, and FA gave them a false hope. In reality, however, it made matters worse, much much worse.

[johiyom]

Thank you healed for your warm welcome.
I would like to comment that Christ's atonement on the cross may have included physical healing but his redemption for us also included our own bodily resurrection and glorification. That hasn't happened yet. I came to the conclusion that while God can and certainly does heal, some things just will not be remedied until all things are made new. I base this on Romans 8, that the whole of creation waits for the coming of Christ and the resurrection and groans and travails in the meantime. That is when our bodies will be redeemed, changed and we will fully realize all he bought for us at Calvary and through his resurrection as the firstborn from the dead and firstborn of creation. Also in Revelation it says that there is coming a time when God will wipe away all tears, death, sorrow, crying AND PAIN. Christians, just like non-Christians experience tears,death,sorrow,crying and PAIN. In short,SICKNESS.
So sickness and disease are real, they are here and believers experience them. If Jesus does not return we will all die and await the resurrection, and most likely you're gonna die from something. Everybody not being healed has really nothing to do with a lack of faith or them having some secret sin in their lives. We are in Adam and his one act of sin plunged the world into sin and death. While believers are now in Christ, it doesn't mean the entire effects of Adam's fall have been totally dealt with at this time. Potentially, yes. Actually, no. All things have not been made new yet. The faith message was a distortion and robbed people of true faith, their hope and trust in a God who is in control of his plan for mankind, creation, and his children.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: Thank you healed for your warm welcome. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...looks like yer preachin' to any empty room, but soon, the rest of your unbeliever buddies will surely show up to pat you on the back for your rabid unbelief, and acceptance of the worlds' methodology for all solutions to lifes' problems.

[johiyom]

The room apparently isn't that empty. You were here to "Attack Me With Your Love" and give us a cameo of your defense.I seem to remember Hobart saying something like if everybody left and the church was empty; he talked about preaching to even just a few people in his early church and other places, he'd still keep on preaching the Word of God. That numbers didn't matter,etc.
John2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men], And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.Mark 12 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in [his] words....But he, knowing their hypocrisy...
And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him [any question]...

Take the "T" off Christ and make Chris.
Exchange C for a K...Kriss Kross 'll make ya jump, jump.
Como Esta?

[william]

Hi johiyom

>>>Was FA a cult?It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman. Authoritarianism,legalism.Similarities between FA and JW's.Let's define the word,cult.See: http://www.freeminds.org/fmi_faq1.htm <<<

The link you provided on your definition of a cult states this:

Concerning:
RECRUITMENT

1) Deception - The group's identity and/or their real motives are not revealed at first. The group's leaders tell members to withhold information about the group from outsiders.

This definitely did not apply to HEF or FA.

2) Love Bombing - Cults offer instant friendship and acceptance. Recruiters will not take no for an answer without making you feel guilty or ungrateful. If you say yes, guilt and obligation will increasingly be used to lower your defenses.

By your own admission this didn't occur! (..."people looking at me like I was from some other planet")

3) Exploit Personal Crisis - Situations such as a broken relationship, death in the family, loss of job, recent move, and loneliness as well as depression are exploited.

I cannot answer absolutely that this didn't occur at FA, but I can say that if this occurred, it was absolutely not a part of some concerted or orchestrated effort on the part of the Church.

4) Crisis Creation- The world around you and even other believers are seen in a darker light, or the end of the world is imminent, etc. You must be part of this group to be saved or healed.

Yes, this was definitely true. I think Christianity promotes this idea.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

5) Answers- The group has over-simplified answers to life's questions for every question you ask. Theirs are the ONLY answers.

Almost any answer one gives to any situation can be categorized as over-simplification, so this is a general statement that would universally apply... but the second part of the statement "Theirs are the ONLY answers." cannot be applied to HEF or FA... unless by "theirs" you mean bible teaching which we have embraced. Besides, Jesus said that He was the ONLY way.

continued...

[william]

Concerning:
PROGRAMMING

1) Intense Study - The focus is on group writings and doctrine. The Bible, if used, is quoted selectively but out of context.

The bible was never selectively used and context was ever important. The bible was the heart of HEFs teaching.

2) Warnings - Recruits are told that Satan will cause relatives and friends to say bad things about the group. Recruits soon trust only group members.

The cult of Jesus says the same thing:
Mat 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

3) Guilt and Fear - Groups focuses on individual's sinful nature and the need to purge the old personality.

We were taught that we were a new creation in Christ Jesus and that old things were passed away.

4) Schedule Control, Fatigue - Study and service to group are mandatory, taking up almost all the time of the new member, making them too busy to question or to listen to others. Family, friends, jobs and hobbies are squeezed out, further isolating the new member.

We were encouraged to study the Word of God, but "mandatory?", I think not.

5) Attack Independent Thought - Critical thinking is discouraged as prideful and sinful. Blind acceptance is encouraged.

Well, my friends at FA all were pretty independent thinkers, but I'm sure you had the herd mentality as well. That wouldn't be an inaccurate statement applied to the denominational system either.

6) Divine Commission - Group leader(s) claim new revelations from God, and that they are God's sole spokesmen to mankind today.

Now on this point you may have hit on something (not that FA or HEF ever claimed "new" revelations or ever considered themselves "sole spokesmen") that plagues the modern-day Church, and that is a lack of DIVINE COMMISSION. I've lately come to realize that the lack of a clear calling categorizes those who find themselves mixed up on the focus and commission of the Church of Jesus Christ.

7) Black and White Mentality - All issues have simple answers, and require unquestioning obedience to the group. "Us against them" thinking strengthens group identity. Everyone outside of the group is labeled as weak or misled.

While there wasn't "unquestioning obedience to the group," the "Us against them" mentality did prevail at FA... at least in my experience.

continued...

[william]

Concerning:
RETENTION

1) Motives Questioned - When sound evidence against the group is presented, members are taught to question the motives of the presenter. What is verifiable is ignored due to what is non-verifiable.

Here you describe our attitude toward the media... "sound evidence" would be the lacking ingredient. They traffic in the non-verifiable.

2) Information Control - Group controls what member may see or hear. Forbids contact with ex-members or anyone critical of the group.

No one controlled anything, we all were free to see, hear, or do, whatever we wanted. That isn't to say that a person could live in sin and not be disfellowshipped from the assembly, but we certainly were not "controlled" in how we interacted with the world or those ex-members who may have been critical. We were encouraged to avoid those who had an axe to grind, but there was no element of control with regard to who we "could" and "could not" have contact with... I know this from personal experience.

3) Isolation and Alienation - Group becomes a substitute family and is taught that no others are needed, including natural family. Members may be told to quit school, leave home, give up sports, etc.

To a limited extent this was true, but hey, wasn't it Jesus who said "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. "? But as far as members being "told" to quit school, leave home, give up sports, etc., you'll need to provide an example. Parents may have had this authority, but never the leadership of FA.

4) Coercion - Disobedience, including even minor disagreement with group doctrine will result in shunning and expulsion.

Shunning perhaps by some of the members, but expulsion would have only occurred by HEFs consent and to my knowledge this didn't occur unless there were *serious* problems. You'll need to provide an example for us to examine if this indeed occurred at FA.

5) Phobias - Fear of the world and other people is magnified, as is fear of the devil or evil. Members are taught that something very bad will happen to them if they leave the group. No honorable way out of the group.

From the bible we were taught to fear nothing but God. However in practice, I would admit that fear played a part in motivating many of the actions of the FA membership.
Leaving the group honorably? I left the "group", I'll leave it to others to decide whether or not it was "honorable".

6) Striving - Group membership and service are essential for salvation. No matter what you do, it is never enough.

Like hombre has said, Christianity is an adult religion, it isn't easy, but once you've put your hand to the plow, don't look back.

continued...

[william]

Concerning:
RESULTS

1) Dependency - Member adopts a childlike dependency on the group.

Members of FA were never encouraged to depend on anyone but God... in fact dependency on the group was absolutely frowned upon!

2) Personality Disorders - Depression, disorientation, anxiety, stress, neurotic or psychotic behavior and even suicidal tendencies may result.

No group, no matter what their purpose, is immune from those who suffer from these disorders.

3) Diminished Capacity - Members lose ability to think clearly and critically. Logical contradictions in doctrine have little or no impact on member.

If you were there, you would not label FA with this broad stroke. I'm sure that there were those there who did not have the ability to think clearly and critically, but to attribute this to "group-think" would be an error. So prevalent were those who "pointed out logical contradictions" it seemed as if it was an established gift, right along with tongues.

There were logical contradictions, but let's not attribute that to some over-arching mind-control technique used by the leadership. If we were wrong about something it was our own choice to keep our eyes shut.

4) Broken Relationships - Family and friends are cast aside.

(See Above)

5) Exploitation - Member is exploited financially, physically and/or mentally. May be manipulated into giving all possessions to group, leaving school or job to put in long hours selling literature or other items, providing low cost labor for the group, etc.

Didn't happen. A member could put money in a box located in the building... or not.


Okay, we've gone through the definition of "cult tendencies" from the link you provided... I'll leave it to the readers to determine whether or not there are sufficient similarities with this guys free mind to warrant a blanket designation of cult status for FA. I do see he is taking donations for his trouble... if any one would like to send me a donation for my trouble, send it to PO Box 666 Good Mental Health Institute, Freebird AL-- thank you!

Concerning your other points, I'll attempt to cover them, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

William

[johiyom]

William,
I just do not believe everything Hobart and FA taught was "bible teaching". Plenty of it was Hobart Freeman's heterodox bible teaching. Things were sifted through his views, colored by his opinions. This doesn't mean EVERYTHING he taught was wrong but that he was just as fallible as anyone else no matter how sincere, convinced and convicted he may have been. I have shared a few examples above of how I think he was wrong, hypocritical, legalistic, contradictory, etc. If you feel everything he taught was pure and true biblical teaching then that is your perogative. I just don't and it took me a long time to realize it.

[william]

I only have a limited amount of time... I'll get to your other posts, but your first paragraph dealt with your definition of a cult/cult tendencies.

Most of the Freemind link did not apply to FA, although some points did. Since that was your starting point I felt the need to begin there as well. I'm unsure of why you wanted to associate FA with the link unless it was simply to associate FA with the term Cult? This is unnecessary because the name of this board actually accomplishes this.

I'm not a defender of all things FA, but I do think that factual inaccuracies need to be addressed.

Later,
William

[johiyom]

I submit the responses of Anita Rosenthal, countmyhair,elijah,and healed on the thread entitiled, Faith Assembly a cult? then what's the definition of a cult? as to why I too believe FA was a cult, or as I like to say, became a cult or cultish.

[johiyom]

I submit the responses of Anita Rosenthal, countmyhair,elijah,and healed on the thread entitiled, "Faith Assembly a cult? then what's the definition of a cult?" as to why I too believe FA was a cult, or as I like to say, became a cult or cultish.

[hombre]

William...apparently, at present, you have more of the fruit of patient longsuffering than I do. I am beginning to come to the conclusion that there are some people who are completely lost, confused and don't want to understand. This guy appears to be one of them, and for the time being, I have neither the interest nor the time anymore to waste on people who ought to know better.

The question that keeps arising to me is this:

How is it that you and I heard something entirely ( for the most part ) different than what these others heard?

This guy is a fatalist, claiming to be a Christian, just like the rest of the system, who continually recite their religious creeds and mottos, prefacing each prayer with 'if it be thy will', while the ship is sinking.

I have yet to see any of these guys deal with the way that Jesus taught faith toward God.

Jesus said: 'Have faith in God'.

I ask: ' For what?'...if we are going to dismiss every prayer with a spin of the great roulette wheel of Gods capricious desire to help mankind, as they believe, then they are right. There is no point in having faith, and really no point in praying either, unless one simply like to feel pious in some sort of perverted religious way.

I say with Paul: If this thing isn't true, then why do we bother?..why not just eat , drink and be merry?

It would appear that there are those who have made that decision theirs, and would thrust their belief on others as well through perverting the Gospel....which is of course ' Good News'.

...so tell me, those of perverse disputations, what exactly is 'good news' about a god one cannot trust?

...how is it that you are sure of eternal salvation, when you can't believe Mark 11:24?...isn't He the same Jesus who spoke both things?

Logic would conclude confusion from one of these sources, either in Jesus, or in these defamers of the Gospel.

I choose to believe Jesus.

[william]

My point is this: Your header and then your opening paragraph links to this freemind guy's definition of a cult. My question is, why? Most of it is irrelevant. It is one thing to believe along with Anita, countmyhar, elijah, and healed, that FA was a cult, no problem, but why put a link to a irrelevant document?


william

[johiyom]

hombre, obviously you have the interest and time because you've been on here all over these threads so much defending everything FA and Hobart Freeman that it speaks for itself. You had to post on this thread that I started. You'll be back somewhere on here so don't pretend to not be "wasting time" for the time being. You can't help yourself.

[duncan]

Interesting discourse today!

My journey here over the past couple of years has been a pursuit of truth and knowledge. As a member of FA from a child until I was in my mid-teens, I didn't understand a lot of what was going on. However, I can remember certain emotions that I felt at the time - not all of them good. As an adult, I am trying to understand this part of my life. I have never been a basher of FA and HEF, nor have a blindly defended them, either.

With this in mind, I would like to ask a question to both Hombre and William: Do you believe everything that HEF said was accurate and right in line with scripture?

Please don't take this as a trick question or a "set-up" to bash either of you.

Thanks!
Duncan

[william]

Duncan,

>>>With this in mind, I would like to ask a question to both Hombre and William: Do you believe everything that HEF said was accurate and right in line with scripture?<<<

NO, and I've said as much... and I'll say more, but what I do say is this, with all of his faults, HEF stood head and shoulders above anyone that I've ever heard when it comes to pointing people to the word of God. I was there.

The culture that grew out of his attempts, was a culture of legalism. Now, whether you believe that he was the direct cause, or whether you believe he was, through omission or lack of attention, the indirect cause, makes absolutely no difference to the central point (made over and over by Hombre) --- will you believe God's Word, brought to us by HEF? We certainly heard it enough, or have you forgotten?

Throw out every opinion, every pastoral prerogative, every tee-shirt message, he ever preached and still you are left with ream after ream of truth from God's Word that must be either true or not. If it is true, then forget your opinion about who taught it and make it your own.

William

[duncan]

William,
I agree that HEF was far deeper than most pastors out there. And to answer your question - I do stand on the Word and believe it totally. Not necessarily the way HEF always brought it, but the way it actually reads.

I have been going through Biblical Theology for the past year. I just finished my 3rd MP3 which concluded the doctrine of redemption (predestination, election, calling, adoption, etc.) I can say without hesitation that I agreed with 99% of what he said. Having never heard these sermons before(done in 1975 and 1976), one thing stood out to me. He pointed out in every sermon, without exception, that this was teaching that you could not get anywhere else. He stated over and over that seminaries didn't teach it, and he stated that, and I quote "99 and 44/100% of churches do not believe this."

I know that Baptist seminaries were very liberal in the 70s and 80s, until the conservative resurgence in the late 80s and early 90s. However, the doctrine that he taught is exactly what is taught in the church I attend.

Going back to that cult tendencies list you went over, I agree that HEF taught regularly that you couldn't get the "strong word" at any other church. As an adult, I have found that statement to be false.

The whole point of my post is not to say the HEF didn't teach the truth, but to say that there are others out there that believe the Bible, as well.

Have a great day!
Duncan

[odysseus]

William, please enlighten us on what HEF taught that you didn’t agree with. I have never read the specifics. Eyeglass perchance?

[odysseus]

I just loved your magical changing eye glasses on your website that went from Bi-focals to Sunglasses then back to Bi-focals. You gotta love Photoshop. Hey William tell us all again what you disagreed with Hobart Freeman the most on? Eyeglasses, television? Maybe the designated hitter rule in baseball?

We all know you loved the x-files on TV. You want to know something William? I think that ole’ Hobart would consider that TV series an occult program. I mean look at what he taught. Wouldn’t you?

My sweet Lord I just realized, William you have been had. You need deliverance from the x-files demons. 5-Fold Prophet was right! His curse on you and faith assembly, Hombre and Mark1124 worked after all.
Well you know how it starts? First you’re looking at internet porn on a Three Stooges website and next your consorting with Witches named ‘Diva’. After a few succubae you’re so jaded and confused you don’t know Matthew from Melkizadeck.

[william]

Humor isn't your forte.

[william]

Okay, on to the rest of your posts.

>>>A Life of Trials,Tragedies,and Triumphs,Gordon Lindsay.Story of John Alexander Dowie.Similar parallels in the fixations of Freeman.<<<

I quote this only to point out that you seem to love finding parallels. I have read Linsay's book about Dowie, but it was a long time ago, too long to remember any "parallels".

>>>Jesus didn't debate sin-he healed.FA couldn't do that so they got entangled trying to figure out what sin or demon was responsible,etc.<<<

You know, there may have been some of that, but there wasn't a week that went by that someone didn't have a testimony about God supernaturally healing or delivering someone. To say "FA couldn't do that" is misleading, because God was doing that (I don't mean specifically a blind eye, because I don't remember any blind eyes being opened, but certainly supernatural healings were commonplace.)

>>>According to FA disciples,Hobart died to go home to be with the Lord-no fault was found,while others had an evil eye focused on them for their failures. <<<

If there was fault, and if it were found, then there would be no reason to hide the facts. Trust me, there were plenty of people searching for the "reason".

Possible reasons for HEFs death: Old age (none of us know when it is time to go), a Job-like trial (your protestations noted), chastisement, sin, (oh, better leave this one out lest a parallel be made between me and the disciples in John 9) or something in the infinite wisdom of God that escapes our little minds.

>>>Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz-former governing body member of the Watchtower.This cult destroyed people's lives.<<<

The second time you've mentioned the JWs. Why? I don't know, but I suspect it is for some perceived parallel. I don't see any.

>>>Matt.9;Mk.5;Lk.8 The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science.The incident is there to show the hopelessness of her condition,desperation;<<<

Er, perhaps also to show the limitations of medical science?

The problem with this, is that you are asking us to believe your assessment over against someone else&amp;#8217;s assessment? Why should your pronouncements be accepted? Give us a little more time hearing your "teaching" before you ask us to blindly accept your interpretation.

Another take might be this: She ran out of money. If only she could have afforded better treatment she would not have been in this awful predicament. She should have listened to that guy who was selling gold investments. Who could have known that gold would appreciate so quickly! (Odysseus, you need to understand that I'm speaking tongue-in-cheek here.)

But wait, let's look a little closer at the passage: Mat 9:22 "But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour."

Now you say "... that Jesus healed her through determined faith." The passage says that it was her faith that made her whole. In reading the passage it seems as if Jesus had little to do with the healing apart from her faith embracing the fact that He was the Healer. Imagine that, Jesus the Healer. A point not lost on FA, since we heard it hundreds of times from HEF. In fact, there weren&amp;#8217;t too many messages that didn't mention the importance of faith in the life of the believer. Knowing that faith only comes by the Word of God, HEF stressed the Word more than anything else.

continued...

[william]

Yikes, I can't get past the passage and the misleading way you seem to want to handle it while at the same time denouncing Hobart Freeman. >>> You say "The woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science."<<< A re-reading may be in order... nowhere does it state that she was (quoting you) "SUFFERING FROM AN ISSUE OF BLOOD". God's word states that she "...had suffered many things of many physicians". Now, that kind of inaccuracy would not have been tolerated at FA. In fact, I've heard some of the five-fold get up and correct a seemingly minor point that they had made in a previous message, when the point was dealing with scripture.

The integrity of the written Word was a standard that HEF held with the highest regard.

>>>By the way,she didn't subsequently have to go through deliverance from medical science demons.<<<

Yes sir, Mr. Scholar... if you say so, it must be true.

>>>... medical science demons... To believe in them is as farfetched as the war in hell story of JDS teachers.They're only in the fertile imagination of FA.<<<

Oh, sure thing. I'll scratch those from my notes. While I'm at it, what about the whole medical deity thing? Are they real?

Your next "parallel" nearly made me choke, until I looked up the facts.

You said: >>>Matt.9 doesn't mention physicians.Mark 5 is the only place where we're told she suffered at the hands of physicians.Luke 8 says she spent all her living on physicians.John doesn't mention the story at all.Hobart himself used the argument in Did Jesus Die Spiritually p.40 that since only two of the gospel writers recorded the Ps.22:1 passage,total abandonment of Jesus by the Father wasn't true.Had it been true he assumes all 4 gospels would have recorded it.Since the woman with the issue of blood story is in only 3 of the 4 gospels,and since only one of them tells us she suffered at the hands of physicians,one says she spent all she had on physicians,and the other doesn't mention the physicians at all,how then could Hobart and FA use this as a crucial prooftext to outright condemn doctors/ medical science, and to psychologically put pressure and fear in Christians not to seek medical help?<<<

Again, you misrepresent the situation... here is the link to the relevant chapter of Did Jesus Die Spiritually. I'll let others determine for themselves the validity of your "parallel".

http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/jdspoint05.htm

continued

[william]

>>>He elevated "thou shalt not go to a doctor" to a doctrine to be wrapped around the necks of believers.He made people think they weren't even saved if they went to get help.FA members showed no compassion."<<<

There is an element of truth to this statement.

>>>Col.4:14Paul calls Luke a BELOVED PHYSICIAN.
It's not a sin to be a doctor.Yes,all Luke reported in his inspired writings(Luke,Acts)is the power of God to heal people but the fact remains he was still identified by Paul as a physician.Paul mentioned one of his opposers as Alexander the coppersmith(II Tim.4:14).Does that mean the profession itself is somehow evil?Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs.<<<

I'm weary of your constant need to parallelize everything... especially since there is precious little to parallel, and then the obligatory pontification:

>>> "Luke never renounced medicine or went through deliverance.No conflict in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs."<<<

How do you know what he did or did not renounce? No conflict? How do you know?

continued...

[william]

Here is a parallel: Jesus never sinned. Luke never sinned. Using your own standard here... we don't have a record of Luke praying for repentance, therefore he never sinned, maybe Luke was a medical deity! That makes as much sense as you deducing that he never "renounced medicine" or "went through deliverance" and then concluding that there is "NO CONFLICT in being a doctor and acknowledging the healings God performs"!

Wow, who knew that using parallels could make one so bold!

Go on, believe what you want about doctors, but don't try to twist scripture to justify your belief.

Okay, I've gone through your first message

The next one barely deserves mention since it is dealing with Christmas. It is true that this is a sacred holiday for millions, but it is also true that HEF didn't mention this issue for years, even though this was apparently one of the main reasons for dismissal from his seminary job. Afterwards, when he did mention it, he gave us the reasons he did not celebrate this most holy of days. To my knowledge, he never once legislated the issue, or spoke without saying something to the effect that FA didn't have a policy that you could not celebrate; it was left completely in our hands as to whether or not we would keep this wonderful day.

I do notice you make another point of paralleling FA with the JWs in this second post.

That's all I got to say bout that.

Looking at post number 3 it seems we are due for another comparison between JWs and FA.

>>>Hobart had no right, no authority and no business getting involved with public teachings in regards to the private, personal, intimate sexual practices of married couples. Matt. 19:6; Hebrews 13:4 The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society did this and destroyed people's marriages.<<<

Unless you are a little more specific, I'm not sure of your meaning here. Mt 19:6 Jesus is teaching in "public" on the subject of divorce and in Heb 13:4 it says "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

Do you think that ministers shouldn't preach/teach on these verses? Or just Hobart?

I'm tired tonight, and to top it off in your next message you parallel FA with Christian Science:

>>>Positive Thinking and Confession is really nothing more than Christian Science in a new dress...<<<

I can't stomach another parallel tonight. Perhaps I'll have another go of it tomorrow.

william

[passin_thru]

johiyom, thanks for the really great posts. I enjoyed reading your perspective. It appears the Lord has led you to a balanced understanding. One that’s worth sharing!
_____

I would also like to note the ‘overcomers’ replies. They harp the same old refrain, “...looks like yer preachin' to any empty room, but soon, the rest of your unbeliever buddies will surely show up to pat you on the back for your rabid unbelief, and acceptance of the worlds' methodology for all solutions to lifes' problems.”

They hafta be superior. They can’t accept anyone as a ‘believer’ if they don’t hold to Freeman. That, in itself, made FA a cult. They just don’t see the real path of love and selfless service the Lord Jesus taught us to tread. They still believe Freeman and their overcomer label is their ticket to great heavenly rewards.

Their ‘deeper life’ hasn’t overcome sin in their life anymore than it’s given them the power to conjure miracles. I recently read hombre was divorced and remarried. Awhile back, I challenged him to a righteous living contest. I now see maybe why he didn’t want to play. And I read William wears bifocals. He told me he hadn’t seen a doctor or dentist in more than thirty years. I gather his glasses must be the drug store off-the-rack kind. Still, it begs the question. Where’s da faith?

Overcomers are no better than anyone else. They just think they are. They lie to themselves even more than they lie to others. They’re afraid to stand naked (except for grace) before the Lord without the hypocrisy of an overcomer label and Hobart Freeman.
_____

When all is considered, does it mean everything Freeman uttered was false? No! Every cult, sect and false teacher holds some truth. It’s what makes them 10,000 times more dangerous and deceptive than if they held no truth at all. As the Bible says, the final proof is in the fruit. In the case of Hobart Freeman’s faith formula, the fruit is bountifully bad.

To be sure, today’s churches and Christians are too carnal. Such has been the case throughout history. There is no perfect earthly church or teacher. It’s wrong to even look for it. It’s wrong to hold that much faith in any organization or mortal man. It only leads to much suffering and a stunted relationship with God.

[johiyom]

I'd like to comment on this passage that is always used by FA people to justify not doing right by family members,separating oneself from family in the name of discipleship, deeper life, faith,following Jesus,etc.
"...wasn't it Jesus who said "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. "?"
Luke4:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
The same Jesus also told the legalistic Pharisees this:
Mark7:9-13And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:But ye say,If a man shall say to his father or mother,[It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Christ was not for us alienating our family and not doing right by them, even if they were unbelievers, in the name of our great spirituality in following him. He also pointed out the greatest commandment was to love the Lord our God and like the first, the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves, so the statement about hating father and mother and loving son and daughter more than him cannot be taken and run amok with as a justification for some of the things cults such as FA did to alienate people from their relatives. He did not intend for us to literally HATE our fathers and mothers, sons and daughters. I alienated my family in the name of some of the crap I sought to live under Hobart's and FA's teachings, and I had so many regrets, even apologizing to my parents after leaving the FA satellite church. I hurt and worried them, but all that has changed for me and I am thankful.

[johiyom]

I don't believe in medical deities or medical science demons anymore than I believe that by obeying the laws of the land I'm making "gods" out of those in governmental authority/positions. The only medical deities/idols or demons are the ones in your weak, fearful, childish and superstitious minds; the deities you make.
An idol is nothing. There is but one God to fear.

[johiyom]

Concerning Dr.Dowie's Attitude Toward The Medical Profession p.169 (Gordon Lindsay)
Readers will have noted that Dr.Dowie severely criticized and took to task the medical practice of his day,which it must be admitted was rude and elementary in comparison with the status of the medical profession today.While the Scriptures plainly teach that the child of God, if and when sickness comes, should look to God rather than to man there is no wholesale condemnation of those who minister to the sick by natural means. Apparently Christ during his ministry showed a friendliness to the physicians, as he did to all who would receive him. Indeed Luke, the beloved physician wrote a Gospel that bears his name.It was in Divine healing that Christ, the Great Physician showed men "a more excellent way". Yet we must bear in mind that it has often been the case that when God seeks to re-establish some great truth in his church those instrumental in accomplishing this seem impelled by human necessity to almost over-emphasize certain phases of the truth, in order to awaken people and to counteract the damage caused by centuries of neglect or under-emphasis.There was certainly no ulterior motive in Dr.Dowie's hostility to the doctors.He was well aware that his opposition to them brought great persecution upon him from many quarters.His motive seems evident and sincere.He believed that those who desire divine healing must definitely transfer their faith in the "arm of the flesh" to that of faith in the Living God.

Point made: Hobart had a predecessor-John Alexander Dowie. He is not unique in this respect.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: He believed that those who desire divine healing must definitely transfer their faith in the "arm of the flesh" to that of faith in the Living God.

Point made: Hobart had a predecessor-John Alexander Dowie. He is not unique in this respect.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...soooooo...whatcher point?

Gordon Lindsays' synopsis of Dowies' position on medical science, is exactly what I've been saying here now for 2 years, and from what you have written yourself, you concur.

You'll look fruitlessly to find any post of mine condemning anyone who uses medical science for healing.

.....so....the problem is?

Here's a parallel.

You and Alexander the coppersmith.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: Hobart had no right, no authority and no business getting involved with public teachings in regards to the private, personal, intimate sexual practices of married couples.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...if you had/have a problem with that, you are really gonna have a problem with Jesus regulating your thought life. Matt. 5: 27-8

[johiyom]

Is your thought life regulated hombre? And since you resort to name calling, how 'bout if I change yours to Hombre Freemanite? By the way, here you are again wasting your time and showing an interest on this thread with people like me as I predicted.
As passin_thru stated:
Their ‘deeper life’ hasn’t overcome sin in their life anymore than it’s given them the power to conjure miracles. I recently read hombre was divorced and remarried. Awhile back, I challenged him to a righteous living contest. I now see maybe why he didn’t want to play. And I read William wears bifocals. He told me he hadn’t seen a doctor or dentist in more than thirty years. I gather his glasses must be the drug store off-the-rack kind. Still, it begs the question. Where’s da faith? Overcomers are no better than anyone else. They just think they are. They lie to themselves even more than they lie to others. They’re afraid to stand naked (except for grace) before the Lord without the hypocrisy of an overcomer label and Hobart Freeman.

[johiyom]

Here's another thought for hombre:
I think the word "rabid" describes yourself best.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: Overcomers are no better than anyone else.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I have never made the claim to being one. That's kinda up to Jesus to decide...and no, overcomers aren't intrinsically better than anyone else, the ground is level at the foot of the cross, and that would also include condescending intellectual blowhards like yourself, who also stand quite naked and revealed to the Lord.

PS: You can call me whatever you like, enemy, as I will continue to do likewise.

[johiyom]

It's an extremely LONG topic to discuss so I won't go into it but I will just make the comment that as far as I'm concerned much of their superior, deeper life, discipleship, supposed, phoney total faith for healing mentality is a lot like Gnosticism. An elite who felt they had special revelations that only the intitiated had. They had a knowledge that sanctified them. Overcomers and manifested sons of God. They weren't content to be a "rank and file" simple believer in Christ. They are ABOVE the rest of us lowly, shallow,ignorant, unbelieving, faithless, milk and pablum, born again and sometimes Spirit-filled Christians, who trust in Christ for the complete forgiveness of our sins, weaknesses, failures, and broken lives, on our way to heaven; awaiting the kingdom of God, only by grace through faith- having nothing of which to boast. We can't measure up to THE LAW of Moses and can't measure up to the LAWS and mindset of Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly. And they can't go out into the world and fulfill Mark 16,though they quote it all the time(I don't see them picking up snakes and drinking poison like the Pentecostals in Kentucky,Tennessee,W.Virginia-if you're gonna be literal then BE LITERAL) healing the sick, cleansing lepers, raising the dead(not even their precious Hobart) as the apostles did. They aren't bringing them out of wheelchairs, opening the eyes of the blind, opening deaf ears, restoring maimed limbs,etc. They're just hunkered down in a mess of delusions and fixations.

[johiyom]

On a Positive Note:
I have never seen a movement or church since(this includes the associated satellite churches) that encouraged Body Ministry the way Hobart and FA did. The gifts of the Spirit, primarily the utterance gifts of prophecy, divers kinds of tongues and interpretation of tongues, to flow freely in worship services. It was absolutely priceless. Most other charismatic or pentecostal groups suppress this kind of ministry. Most of the ministry is done by those in the pulpit-pastors, teachers, or evangelists, some supposed guest prophet or apostle. The people sit there and sing/praise/worship as spectators, get up and put money in the plate, go up for prayer, laying on of hands, and go home. Yes, FA was special in its emphasis upon Body Ministry.
The Worship, on the other hand, was really good but not necessarily the best, especially after Hobart got off into this crap about songs in minor keys.
I found the praise/worship of Christ For the Nations to FAR surpass that of Faith Assembly. A sister at our meetings exposed me to CFN praise on cassette tape. The songs, the spontaneous singing in the Spirit. Anointed; powerful.
Faith Assembly needed to lighten up, quit being so anal and serious about itself, and really get free in this area of worshipping God- letting the joy just flow. Scrutinizing every song's lyrics to make sure they passed the test of being "scriptural". Straining at gnats and swallowing whole camels.
I commend FA for it's emphasis upon Body Ministry.}

[johiyom]

Intellectual???: Thank you. Paul was an intellectual who counted everything as dung to win Christ, yet God used HIM to write the vast majority of the New Testament that you cling to. Luke, the beloved Physician, was an intellectual, yet God used him to write the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts.
So, if I'm an intellectual, then so be it. Sela!
Hobart went to college and to seminary. I guess he was an intellectual too when it came to where he learned the foundational theological truths of the Bible, that he taught to you, even including Hebrew and Greek languages, while you sat their, in awe, hanging on every word he spoke.

[johiyom]

What ever happened to "Cincinnati Jim", as we nicknamed him? Never knew his real name. Just remember him going to Faith Assembly sometimes wearing maybe a cowboy hat. We called him that because he gave us the recipe for Cincinnati Chile. MMMM MMMM! Spaghetti, hamburger, kidney beans, diced onions, and grated cheddar cheese, with a lil' hot sauce on it. A home made version of Sky-Line Chile. I have good memories too.

[johiyom]

Enemy? Hmmm? That's what some tribes referred to other tribes as: enemies or snakes. Most native american tribes referred to themselves simply as
"THE PEOPLE". Their enemies, even white settlers, picked up the derogatory name of "enemy" to describe them. For instance, we call them Sioux. They are not Sioux. They refer to themselves as Lakota, Nakota, Dakota. I am Notoweega, but tribally I am Wapoo/Cusabo, Tsalagi/Cherokee, Iroquois/Haudenoshonee...people of the longhouse...to their foes it means snake, adder, enemy. You wanna be enemies? that's fine with me.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: t's an extremely LONG topic to discuss so I won't go into it but I will just make the comment that as far as I'm concerned much of their superior, deeper life, discipleship, supposed, phoney total faith for healing mentality is a lot like Gnosticism. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Explain the term 'born again' and what that means; also, beginning with the creation account, give us understanding O wise one, how the supernatural is subject to the intellectual reasonings of man.

[johiyom]

John 3
KJV says born again
Williams Translation says born from above
...of the water and Spirit
regeneration
simple
And just as Moses in the desert lifted the serpent on the pole the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who trusts in Him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that He gave His Only Son, so that anyone who trusts in Him may never perish but have eternal life.
I'm only allowed so much space to type on here and besides you wouldn't want to waste your time reading a long thread starting all the way from the book of Genesis(creation).
"I have neither the interest nor the time anymore to waste on people who ought to know better"
But here you are again. Amazing.
Are you laying hands on the sick and bringing them out of wheelchairs? Opening the eyes of the blind and deaf ears, restoring the maimed, healing lepers, raising the dead, O overcoming, faith to move mountains, supernatural,gifted one?
None of that TV preacher fake crap either.
When you can do what Jesus and the apostles did I'll take you seriously.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: When you can do what Jesus and the apostles did I'll take you seriously.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...likewise......but with this qualifier:

All must be done in the name of Jesus the Christ, to and for His glory....as opposed to those 'who will arise in the last days showing signs and wonders to the effect that they would deceive even the elect if that were possible.'

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

...I just felt that I had to make that clear, due to your abhorrance of demonstrating faith in the Words of Jesus the Christ.

[johiyom]

All done in the Name of Jesus the Christ and for his glory? Are you sure? I thought Jesus said that people would come in His name.... claiming to be Christ and these things would be done in His name to deceive.
So, it's not about the mere name of Jesus they claim to be calling upon or representing.

[christlicher_soldat]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

... prefacing each prayer with 'if it be thy will', while the ship is sinking.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Hombre, Jesus himself essentially prayed 'if it be thy will' in Mt. 26:42 -- 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.' We know that the Son was perfectly conformed to the will of the Father and that Christ knew exactly what he was sent for, but he left us with this clear demonstration that it's perfectly fine to pray something contrary to God's will and qualify it with a 'nevertheless...' I can see where Freeman and you folks get all bent out of shape when people use the phrase and don't mean it, but you're bordering pretty close on implying that Jesus did something sinful, which is heresy as Freeman defined it in _Did Jesus Die Spiritually?_

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Jesus said: 'Have faith in God'.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Actually, that's a mistranslation of the Greek. Mk. 11:22 literally reads, 'Have faith OF God,' which is to say the stuff in the verses following is qualified by the condition that God spoke to you and delivered to you the faith to do such things.

(Message edited by Christlicher_soldat on September 10, 2007)

[healed]

spankin that azz spankin that azz...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Hombre gettin it spanked good!

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Devil-Licker: Hombre, Jesus himself essentially prayed 'if it be thy will' in Mt. 26:42...blah, blah, blah.... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

To compare the request of Jesus, in requesting 'if it be thy will' that the cup of his sacrificial offering might be taken away, yet all the while submitting to the will of the Heavenly Father, has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus' own teachings on faith, nor yet what His sacrifice bought for us.

That is an absolutely perverse and corrupt twisting of the gospel, and perhaps the most classic case of taking something out of context that I have ever seen. I am going to have to find a way to honor you for being without a doubt the most bereft of spiritual and common sense among the foes of the gospel.

It is no wonder at all, to me, that you ( collectively ) continue to stumble all over the teachings of Jesus that were reiterated by HEF at FA. I honestly don't think any of you could add 2 + 2 spiritually speaking.....I would add that perhaps you got your ignorance from your parents, but seeing as the majority of you despise the ground they walk on, I would have to conclude that the only mistake they made with you ( collectively ) was not in doning a rubber.

In addition, moron, in accurately quoting the verse: 'have the faith OF God', you have neglected to recognize that is exactly what we are admonished to do. I don't remember God ever wrestling with Himself over whether something was His will or not....and might I quote what is that will?

...Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. ~ Mark 11: 22-4

...among numerous others, and I'm not going into qualifiers here, besides, you have set yourself up to be an authority and ought to know what the first principles of the oracles of God are, yet you lead people astray with your dead denominational errors.

....and BTW: Unhealed, you're still a moron too,: I would call you 'children', but children have within themselves the capacity to learn.

[christlicher_soldat]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

spankin that azz spankin that azz... Hombre gettin it spanked good!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I would not advise rubbing it in. It only reinforces his beliefs that the outside world is hatefully hostile to his cause. There is no formula for extricating someone from a sect like Freeman's, but contributing to the forces that maintain their thinking certainly won't help.

(Message edited by Christlicher_soldat on September 11, 2007)

[christlicher_soldat]

Hombre, “christlicher Soldat” is German for “Christian soldier.” It has nothing to with licking.

I am not a member of any denomination, connexion of churches, pseudo-denomination (e.g. churches of Christ), or ecumenical movement -- I don’t even agree with the doctrine of entire sanctification as it is defined by the Holiness Christians with whom I assemble. My tutor is God’s infallible Word, not catechisms and statements of doctrine. Thus, you have no grounds on which to accuse me of “dead denominational errors.”

I agree that Christ’s great prayer has little to do with his teachings on faith, but not nothing. However, that is beside the point, which is that even when Christ knew his Father’s will, he prayed for a possibility, which is essentially what ‘if it be Thy will’ signifies. Why would he do this, especially if he knew that ‘it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins’ (Heb. 10:4)? I believe he was demonstrating the same point he made in Mt. 26:53, that even though he had power from on High, he had to conform to his Father’s will. But whatever your answer, it is clear that his prayer for a possibility was not done in sin, and a categorical smear against all such who pray in like manner is not in line with the Word.

The philosophical considerations of Mk. 11:22-24 are too deep to get into. My point is that faith is not something that’s self-generated, and the passage is not a license to ask for anything. ‘Whatsoever ye desire’ should be in line with what the Father desires. Otherwise it is twisting God’s arm, and He does not take kindly to that.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Adolph: The philosophical considerations of Mk. 11:22-24 are too deep to get into. My point is that faith is not something that’s self-generated, and the passage is not a license to ask for anything. ‘Whatsoever ye desire’ should be in line with what the Father desires. Otherwise it is twisting God’s arm, and He does not take kindly to that.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well it's good to know that we now have a new representative of God on the earth that presumes to speak for him in contradiction to what He said on earth in the person of Jesus Christ in Mark 11: 22-24, among numerous others. Conditions to receiving are a given, and the only other factor, which might include by way of illustration, but not limited to, James 4: 3, which states: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. The problem with the beliefs that you represent is not that you are not sufficiently pious, but that your beliefs do not agree with the Biblical narrative. Many do not receive for one reason or another, but there is always a reason, which is not about wavering in ones faith about what one has prayed for, otherwise there is no point in praying to a capricious God, who will not do what He has said that He would, namely, as Jesus Himself declared : 'Have I not said: Ye are gods?', It is about the dominion that Jesus purchased for us, and about subduing it in His name, for His glory...and answered prayer glorifies God....the phrase 'if it be thy will' only provides an excuse for failure, and renders the true Spirit of Christianity powerless....which is where the church has been for the last 2,000 years, with people like you attempting to continue that pattern and instill a continuance in unbelief.

[christlicher_soldat]

Hombre, I am not German, and most Germans repudiate their country’s dark role in modern history. I appreciate their language and their role in Protestant history and find it relevant to study German theology’s collapse at the turn of the last century.

Perhaps I was insufficiently clear in where the emphasis fell in the sentence, ‘the passage is not a license to ask for anything.’ The idea intended to be conveyed was, the passage is not a license to ask for just anything you please in and of yourself. ‘Whatsoever ye desire’ is predicated on the condition that this desire is consonant with the desire of the Father. Acknowledging God’s absolute sovereignty in the matter does not make Him out to be capricious but affirms His authority.

With regards to ‘Ye are gods,’ take a look at Ps. 82, from which Jesus was quoting, and you will discover what he was talking about: ‘God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.’ The ‘gods’ the Psalmist was talking about refers to the judges appointed to judge Israel according to the Law. The entire context confirms this. The words for ‘gods’ here, in Hebrew, is ELOHIM. Though this is a common word for God himself, it is occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates. The context of the Psalm bears this out. The ‘gods’ then are these unjust judges who are lording it over God’s people and oppressing then. Regardless of your status in Israel, says the Lord, you are nothing but men and shall die as such under judgment. ‘I have said, Ye are gods; and all you are children of the Most High. But ye shall die like mere men.’ Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for their unjust and irrational appraisal of Him. He was telling them that they were no better than those unjust Judges in Ps. 82. In effect, he was saying something like, ‘You hypocrites. You would sooner acknowledge those unjust judges as being from God, rather than One such as I who has proven His righteousness by His miracles.’ His point was NOT to illustrate any dominion he gave us.

[johiyom]

According to John Davis, Freeman came to be "deeply influenced" by Kenneth E. Hagin, John Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, T.L. Osborn and E.W. Kenyon, who were leaders of the Word of Faith Movement. However Freeman explicitly rejected their Doctrine of Identification, which asserted that Jesus died spiritually, and he also repeatedly warned his congregation about the leaders and their teachings.Freeman's opposition to that doctrine was confirmed by Daniel McConnell.However McConnell also described Freeman as a "renegade preacher of the Faith movement" who "eventually broke with the other Faith teachers".

This is interesting because I visited the Glory Barn in 1976 and I clearly remember seeing books and tapes by Kenneth Hagin for sale on a table.
Hobart had to have known back then that men like Hagin taught JDS but it was OK to sell his teachings at the Glory Barn while his own faith teaching ministry was growing in influence. Later, in essence, he told his followers they shouldn't listen to or read such men as Hagin.
I stand on my statement that Freeman got his Positive Thinking and Confession(and Faith Message) from Hagin.

Has anyone read a book by Judith Matta, called: The Born Again Jesus of Word-Faith Teachings(1985)? She exposes and debunks the revived gnosticism of word faith teachings.

[christlicher_soldat]

I have seen Matta's book cited in Travers and Jewel's van der Merwe Strange Fire: The Rise of Gnosticism in the Church, which you can find here (http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/gnostic1.htm), but I have not hunted her book down yet to read it. Another good resource is Rafael Martinez's website (http://www.spiritwatch.org/fireindex.htm), which is unique in that it's not a stuffy Reformed or Fundamental Baptist exposing the heresies of Word of Faith movement, but a classical Pentecostal pastor who takes a firm stand against using social pressure to drive people into their faith.

[hombre]

...my response to the present ignorance can be found at:

http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&amp;goto=652&amp;S=43750819d5a32c663796c0b 282d1e58b#msg_652

[christlicher_soldat]

Hombre, 1Cor. 3:21-23 has nothing to do with dominion, either. Carefully examine the flow of the entire chapter and you'll discover that Paul was telling his audience that all things are ministrations to them. This was half his purpose in writing the epistle -- to do away with the factional nonsense of rallying behind one apostle or the other when all of them where contributing to their reception and maintenance of the gospel.

You will also discover in Rom. 8, if you carefully read v.23, that the adoption is not something we have actually attained yet because it is defined as the redemption of our bodies. That is, it's a status bestowed upon us when Christ returns, resurrects the righteous, and installs his Millennial kingdom, during which those resurrected shall reign with him, according to Rev. 20:4)\. The ‘Spirit of adoption’ is merely the earnest or down payment of that inheritance (2Cor. 1:22).

I did not brand you a Gnostic. I commented on johiyom’s post. Please be courteous enough not to misrepresent my statements.

I do not by any means deny the power of godliness. What I deny is adopting the mindset of Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. My position is not mediated by experience, either. For instance, I believe speaking in tongues is for today. I have never genuinely experienced it, neither in myself nor in others, but I find no convincing evidence for its cessation in the objective testimony of the Bible, and so I believe they continue, recognizing that the plethora of counterfeits do not obviate the real thing.

Also, please read the site I referred to. The ‘social pressure’ against which this preacher stands is particular to the ‘altar call’ and to the tongues-speaking experience. Namely, he argues that the altar call should be a soul-searching experience, not an episode where the assembly crowds around you and prays for you until you stand up and announce you’ve received the anointing. This is to be distinguished from Reformed and Fundamental Baptist traditions which condemn the altar call altogether as a faith-generating ritual on par with Roman Catholic mass.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Der Ungläubige: Carefully examine the flow of the entire chapter....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

YOU go carefully examine the flow of the entire Bible, intellectual unbeliever, for it IS as I have proclaimed....speaking of the plethora of counterfeits, you fit well within their camp.

[passin_thru]

“It IS as I have proclaimed.” I sure wish Freeman’s overcomers could realize their own idiocy. Is this the way you talk to your ex-wife and family who years ago wrote you off?

Johiyom and Christlicher_soldat provided answers to some Biblical questions you’ve asked for a long time. They offered clear, concise and complete answers. As always, you just turn a deaf ear. You are utterly terrified of the truth. Anyone with prowess in written word and biblical knowledge scares you to death. You’re afraid they’ll get you to question your long dead leader.

Remember a while ago, I posted about my Bible debates with the overcomers in my family? I wrote that when they could not refute the evidence, their last resort was to say I was of the devil sent to deceive them. They would literally put their fingers in their ears and speak in tongues to drown out my words.

Don’t be like my sad sack relatives. Be humble and open enough to let someone have an impact. God didn’t start or stop with Hobart Freeman in some Indiana cornfield. Jesus calls everyone to believe in Him and be free to love Him and others.

Healed is belittled for trivial errors in grammar. Yet, when Johiyom and Christlicher_soldat demonstrate advanced writing ability and biblical expertise, you brand them as intellectual unbelievers. Is this how you want to live your entire life, name calling, insignificant fault finding and condemnation for everyone who does not pay homage to Hobart Freeman? If so, then (like my relatives) you’re shut off from mankind, Christendom and God.

Those of us you malign here in FACTNet are simply pointing out the fallacies of Hobart Freeman, his faith formula and Faith Assembly. We tell of the elitism, suffering and needless death. We tell our story. This is Hobart Freeman’s legacy. It’s what he made it. Don’t blame us.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Passin Up-Chuck: Blah, blah, blah.....)

Nice try, doofus. If you ever bothered to read what I have said, you might be able to make a relevant commentary instead of the typical crapola you unbelievers who label yourselves as Christians attempt to shove down the throats of the rest of us.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

[johiyom]

For certain, hombre, stop glorying in men, stop glorying in Hobart Freeman(I Cor. 3)- an "intellectual" theologian who sought to understand and apply Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, although you won't admit it. Obviously it was Hobart's intellectual background and Biblical scholarship(he even being a man who learned from others) that was a foundation for him refuting JDS. Just how extensive was his library in his home? Probably filled with volumes of interlinears, concordances, lexicons, commentaries, Bible dictionaries, and the writings of numerous theologians- you name it. A man who spent 15-16 hours a day studying and researching, as well as praying. Why is it that you attack anyone you perceive as "intellectual" yet embrace Hobart's intellectual scholarship without question?
The context of I Cor. 3, as christlicher_soldat pointed out, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with our dominion. Paul was talking about heresies or factions in the Corinthian Church over men called to preach or teach.
This is EXACTLY what FA members WERE and ARE guilty of...glorying in Hobart Freeman, as the Corinthians did over Paul, Apollos and Cephas.

[johiyom]

"Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and rebuking them for their lack of faith in Him, though they have seen His miracles performed, and also reminds them that their own law refers to men as 'gods', about which they should not be offended by Jesus being referred to as the Son of God....and Jesus' reference to Psalm 82:6, most certainly does refer to exactly what it says it does......the dominion that God has given us, not only over the earth ( Gen 1:27-31 ) but also all things, whether they be life or death, things present or things to come(I Cor.3:21-23)"

"their own law refers to men as 'gods'..."
Ps.82 and John 10. The use of applying the term "god" to men is limited or rare in the Bible. These passages cannot be used to teach in broad sweeping terms that all men are gods. This is dangerous. Ps. 82 is talking about the judges or magistrates,on account of the dignity and honor of the positions, offices they held; only because the law/commands or Word of God were entrusted to them. Ps.82 was a rebuke to these men who were not faithfully representing God, as Moses (Exodus 4:16; 7:1) in actions and words. Jesus knew Ps.82 was a rebuke and he was rebuking and challenging the unbelieving Jews(Pharisees) who had accused him of blasphemy.
These leaders failed to do and say as God had appointed them. They judged, led and ruled unjustly. Read the whole Psalm and see what they were failing to do. Ps. 82 says I said ye are gods and all of you are children of the Most High but you shall die like men.

[johiyom]

Perhaps we should look at Genesis 3:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die(a lie): For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil(truth).
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever*:Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life*.
*Gen.2:17 thou shalt surely die.
*Gen.3:3 lest ye die.
*Ps.82:7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

"Jesus' reference to Psalm 82:6, most certainly does refer to exactly what it says it does......the dominion that God has given us..."
John 10 Barne's Notes on the New Testament: You charge me with blasphemy. The foundation of that charge is the use of the name God or the Son of God applied to myself; yet that same term is applied in the Scriptures to magistrates. The use of it there shows that it is right to apply it to those who sustain important offices. And especially you, Jews, ought not to attempt to found a charge of blasphemy on the application of a word to the Messiah which in your own Scriptures is applied to all magistrates.

Ps. 82 isn't teaching about God giving US "dominion" over anything or anybody but about men doing right and speaking right as God's representatives on earth. The only one with dominion is God himself. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty. He judgeth among the gods. Arise, O God, judge the earth:for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Certainly Jesus was not like the unjust judges/ magistrates- those to whom the Word of God merely came, but he was the Word of God Incarnate itself. He was sanctified and sent by the Father and was doing the works of his Father and speaking the words of his Father rightly. Judging righteously unlike the magistrates then or the religious leaders opposing him.
Rev.11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
God certainly gave man dominion over the earth(Gen.1:26-27) but MAN LOST THAT THROUGH THE FALL. Only when Christ returns will that dominion be restored to redeemed man. Rev.5:10;20:6;Matt.5:5

[johiyom]

"...the typical crapola you unbelievers who label yourselves as Christians attempt to shove down the throats of the rest of us..."

I think it's the other way around in many respects. How much typical Hobart Freeman crapola was made into doctrinal issues on par with the doctrine of Christ, to be shoved down people's throats, as if someone who didn't line up with it wasn't even considered to be a Christian at all; wasn't even saved???
If I am an unbeliever, then it's because I don't believe everything Hobart taught was the pure Word of God. It may make me an unbeliever in Hobart Freeman, but certainly not an unbeliever in Jesus Christ or the Word of God.
Typical twist of Scripture: II Tim.3:5 This power is often made into miraculous power, healing power, signs and wonders power. We who don't agree with everything FA and Hobart Freeman are accused of having a form of godliness but denying the power that the faith message is supposed to produce. Paul is talking about the power of godliness not the power of faith or the power of the Spirit to produce the supernatural-healings, miracles,casting out demons, raising the dead, etc.
He is talking about men's characters, their actions, works, etc.

[passin_thru]

Johiyom (et al.), Hombre has challenged people several times to explain Mark 11:24. Poster Mark1124 takes this verse as his moniker. The ‘overcomers’ in my family continually dwell and put great emphasis on this single Bible verse. It seems to be their mantra for belief and life. Yet, they totally ignore all passages like Matthew 25:34-45 and Romans 13:9-10.

I’m interested in your take.


P.S. I never attended FA. However, I have four relatives who became ‘overcomers’ through cassette tapes. Two indirectly died because of it. They refused all medical care until it was too late. One is now totally blind from untreated cataracts. Each of them cut themselves off from all friends and family decades ago. The statement I’ll always remember came during my last visit. They literally hissed, “Jesus… You’re all about Jesus. There’s more to it than just Jesus!”

[passin_thru]

P.S. (#2) Odysseus, it’s a shame your previous post above will get lost in the midst of other posts. It deserves it’s own thread. That way, it’ll always be a lead post. You could title it ‘Overcomers: In Their Own Words’ or whatever. Maybe you could also include a link to Hombre’s whole post as reference. Nothing is as revealing as one’s own words.

Anyway, it’s just a suggestion. Take it with a grain of salt.

[odysseus]

That’s a great idea but since it was your idea feel free to do it. I’m getting to feel like what Micah said in another post that, “this site is poison to me”. I’m getting to know that feeling. I’m needing a break from Hombre’s hate.

[hombre]

Gee, I think I'll take everyones advice.

1. For now on, the doctors will be the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself.

2. Doctrine will no longer be as important as embracing anyone and everyone, regardless of their belief system.

3....and finally, we'll just throw out the entire idea of faith in God for anything, because as we all know, it never works for anything; therefore, we can all simply retire back to the world, and enjoy the tasty fruits of drunkeness, fornications, reveling and stealing from one another, and not just a little but as much as is possible. The new order of the day shall be greed and selfishness, and those who name the name of Jesus for anything besides a curseword will be hung.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

...I can't wait to see you morons misqoute and misinterpret me on that.

(Message edited by hombre on September 21, 2007)

[studious]

First time here...I've been reading everything and, as a "disinterested" outsider (once involved in the International Churches of Christ movement and now going to the Catholic Church), I know that Hombre has said that he doesn't condemn anyone for going to the doctor and that he simply puts his faith in God first. Compared to some of the relatives I've read about in these posts, Hombre is a voice of reason. My exposure to FA, of course, is very limited: I've emailed Joe Brenneman some questions and he emailed back some answers. In one of HF's pamphlets now online that warns against the occult and the like, medicine isn't mentioned as a taboo treatment. It seems, again to an outsider like me, that people mistakingly interpreted HF as outright condemming all medicine in all cases and he may not have been aware of the extremes people went to (Joe also believes this). Anyway, Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before. I think that Hombre's in the same league, within the FA context, but I understand that there has been hurt and anguish due to slavish legalism.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

STUDIOUS: ( I ) understand that there has been hurt and anguish due to slavish legalism. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yes, finally an outsider who has read the wrapping paper correctly. My point is that the problem had more to do with peer pressure, than pulpit pressure. Fact is, people don't like blaming themselves or their family for their own problems, shortsightedness, failings, sins, whatever, and now that Hobart is dead, he becomes an easy scapegoat to dump their refuse on.

Yes, Hobart pushed the idea that the atonement of Christ included payment in full to restore us to not only a right standing with God in righteousness through Jesus Christ, but also bought back all of the benefits that the Adamic fall from grace lost, and the curse of disobedience to Moses law, including but not limited to: health, healing and prosperity, all obtained through faith in God, as demonstrated by Jesus Himself when He walked the earth....asking the disciples where their faith was, when He was called upon for deliverance, healing, etc.

However, none of us were ever under any 'law' or 'commandment' by FA or HEF, that we could not either go to a doctor, or use medicine. That is where peer pressure came in, and subsequent tragedies.

This is where I and the kids from FA here disagree.

I believe that everyone is personally responsible for their own decisions.

They find it easier to escape personal responsiblity for their lives by accusing others for their problems.

I don't find that to be a victorious spirit.

[studious]

I'm not saying that everything HEF did was exemplary because he died unnecessarily, in my opinion, due to refusing medical treatment, but that was his choice for himself. About restoring Eden, I have a problem with that, though the Kingdom is here on a spriritual basis. Adam and Eve weren't supposed to die physically but they sinned and brought death on themselves. We die. I can't see an Edenic restoration anywhere in the Bible, though Jesus is the new Adam. We're not new Adams are we? Jesus said we'd do greater things...but I haven't figured that one out yet.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

....I can't see an Edenic restoration anywhere in the Bible, though Jesus is the new Adam. We're not new Adams are we? Jesus said we'd do greater things...but I haven't figured that one out yet.
<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

HEF was willing to believe in what he considered to be true, to the death if necessary, and you are correct...that was his choice...but also if one looks at many of the 20th century 'faith healing' ministries, notably Oral Roberts, one sees a sort of process of decompostion of 'healing doctrine' from God to medical science. IMO, Hef would rather die than become compromised in his beliefs, and especially as a pastor in front of the world...and as such, I see that as honorable on one hand, yet full of religious pride on the other. God is the judge, not me.

On the other issue, I see Edenic restoration as being completed in reality after tribulation during the millenium ( classic pre-millenialist here ), but encouraged as a legal right, to obtain through the force of faith in the here and now individually, as per the teachings of Jesus ( Matt 11:12, Mark 11:24, John 14:12, as well as the numerous accounts where Jesus either explains that someone was healed by their faith, or rebuking others for their lack of faith, even in the face of ridiculous circumstances, like the storm on Galilee ). We may not be 'The' new adam, but we are 'sons of God, heirs and joint heirs of Christ, to whom have been given all things, whether life or death, things present or things to come, etc.

The question remaining to me, you and many others is 'the why'.

If you are like me, you believe Jesus to be the Christ and the story to be true.

That leaves us with a problem as to why things aren't/haven't happened the way we assume they should from what we read in the Bible.

If I knew the answer to that, I wouldn't be here talking about it, I'd be emptying hospitals.

...so then, I am in agreement with your conclusion...it is something I haven't figured out yet, however, I am not going to deny what I have read to be exactly what it says, and attempt to make excuses for myself and it, but rather I will continue to seek solutions in my own life and before God as to the answer.

I may never know until the hereafter, or even then, but I don't find consolation in the denial of what is clearly stated.

[studious]

Yes, HEF sure took faith healing to its logical extreme...but I don't think that seeking medical help is spiritually compromising IF one thanks the human agency ALONE (render unto Caesar...). Then what is one left to thank God for? Well, besides life itself, we are told that in this life there will be trials and tests, though not beyond what we're ABLE bear, though possibly be beyond what we're WILLING to bear. I'm not minimizing blessings, but the "name it and claim it" can be taken too far, as has been and is the case with some preachers.

[hombre]

..you seem to be a very level headed person.

...yes...willing to bear is the problem, isn't it?

Speaking as someone who sat under the HEF/FA ministry for 10 years, and was on multiple automatic tape mailings, I say this with the most absolute confidence that I can have: FAs position toward the topic of 'name it and claim it' was not at all the same as other charismatic 'faith' teachers. It was a balanced teaching that taught faith to the glory of God for everything on one side of the coin, with consecration and the idea that one should not 'claim' things to consume it upon their own lusts ( James 4:3 ) on the other. In fact, I remember Steve Hill ( one of the outreach teachers ) on MANY occasions reminding us to NOT be like Jimmy, whose vocabulary consisted of 'Gimme, Gimme, Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee'.

I have never claimed a Ferrari, even though, to this day, I'd like to have one....but I really don't need it..I'd only get myself into trouble with it anyway, which is probably why, God hasn't just decided to dump one one me anyway. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

..one last note: are you aware that by speaking to me civily, you risk attainment of pariah status?

[studious]

Who cares about what you call "pariah" status? I'm speaking man to man (hombre--yeah you get it). I think I can relate to you even though I'm married to a Catholic breadwinner--opposite of what HEF would envision. As for gimme gimme--have you heard about that stupid "The Secret" gimmick that Oprah fell for? Now that's Satanic paganism if there ever there was any.

[johiyom]

"I've emailed Joe Brenneman some questions and he emailed back some answers. In one of HF's pamphlets now online that warns against the occult and the like, medicine isn't mentioned as a taboo treatment. It seems, again to an outsider like me, that people mistakingly interpreted HF as outright condemming all medicine in all cases and he may not have been aware of the extremes people went to (Joe also believes this). Anyway, Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before. I think that Hombre's in the same league, within the FA context, but I understand that there has been hurt and anguish due to slavish legalism."

There's no need to interpret or misinterpret anything about what Hobart taught concerning medical science/doctors. I was a member of one of the associated groups for almost 10 years and got the tapes. I heard what the man taught. It wasn't on the occult bondage tract. You need to listen to what he taught on tape over the years. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. There's no mistake about it. The extremes to which people went were HIS extremes and HIS teachings. To pretend like he wasn't aware of it is in my honest opinion deliberate lying or sincere delusion. People will do and say anything to wash over his responsibility as a pastor and leader for the words that came out of his mouth on a weekly basis.
Luke 19:22 out of his own mouth.......

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007)

[johiyom]

Whole religious groups have been built on isolated texts to the exclusion of everything else the Bible teaches. For example, Pentecostal Oneness have built their entire soteriology on Acts 2:38. Word of Faith teachers have built an entire atonement error basically on II Cor.5:21. Should we build our entire theology and Christianity upon Mark 11:24 in the exclusive context of divine healing? The Gospel does not rise and fall on divine healing or faith for divine healing. Divine healing is not an end in itself. That is the problem I see with FA. Everything WASN'T about Jesus, the furthering of the Gospel and bringing men to Christ. It was about having faith for divine healing. It became an end in itself. The ME syndrome. Isn't there more to Christianity than that? Five million people died and went to hell and all you're concerned about is not going to a doctor and believing God for a healing to prove... whatever. Then it doesn't work. Something is amiss. Out of sync with God's greater will and purposes.
What you stated passin-thru:
"The ‘overcomers’ in my family continually dwell and put great emphasis on this single Bible verse. It seems to be their mantra for belief and life. Yet, they totally ignore all passages like Matthew 25:34-45 and Romans 13:9-10."
This is very similar to what Jesus told the legalists of his day- you pay tithe of mint, anise and cumin and omit the weightier matters of the law, justice mercy and faith. These ought you to have done and not left the other undone.
Having said that, the problem is not with Mark 11:24. The problem is with human imbalance, extremes. Going to seed on a given truth. The question is the application of certain principles of truth in our daily lives.
Did any of the apostles take Jesus statement and proceed then to move literal mountains by faith? Not even in the book of Acts, after receiving the Holy Spirit, do we find where one of them attempted it. In fact, not one of them attempted to even curse a fig tree by faith as Jesus had demonstrated.
I greatly enjoyed listening to Malcolm Webber's online teaching concerning the sovereignty of God and having an aggressive faith, keeping the two truths in tension and balance.

[johiyom]

"Joe seems like a very level-headed guy, not given to the fanaticism that existed before."

If Hobart was alive right now, FA would be gone from worse to "worser yet". If Joe isn't given to the fanaticism that existed before then he's not living what Hobart taught. If he's not given to the fanaticism then he's admitting and KNOWS GOOD AND WELL that what Hobart taught was fanatical to begin with, legalistic, impractical, imbalanced, extreme, and not really a "pure" Word of God. And dangerous. Joe won't be "persecuted"(I put that in quotes for a darn good reason) as the pastor of FA because children will not be dying under his watch.
The problem was all those yes men who couldn't or wouldn't stand up to Hobart while he was alive. No one kept that man in check and someone should have.

[johiyom]

"For now on, the doctors will be the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself."

hombre,

Were the orthopaedic shoe makers who helped Hobart walk better because one of his legs was shorter than the other due to polio the true messengers and healers sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself? Since these practitioners are medically science related and work with the medical profession(I used to work at a Brace and Limb company which made braces, artificial limbs, and orthopaedic shoes for various needs) was Hobart guilty of relying on Medical Deities and not exercising faith in God?
When your car get's "sick" do you lay hands on it and claim it's healing? Or do you go to the true messengers and car fixers, called mechanics, sent and appointed by God in lieu of Himself?
So you'd show more mercy and have more compassion on your car than you would your own body? Or as FA members did, their own children's bodies.
When you get a splinter in your finger do you just rebuke it and claim healing, or do you get maybe a needle and pair of tweezers to pull it out, put some disinfectant on it and bandage it if the wound is bad enough? If you were stung by a honey bee would you leave the stinger in and just believe God for it to stop pumping venom in you or would you pull it out? Oh my, you'd be guilty of practicing medicine on yourself and not trusting God for your healing by doing something about it. Oh faithless and perverse generation.

Why is it that doctors somehow are enemies of God and faith, diametrically opposed to the Gospel, working against God's will? Why does there have to be a contradiction and conflict? Believe me, I used to think like that. I was part of the FA movement.I heard what was taught.Now I look back and see it was ridiculous.Crazy.But,I grew up.It took living a little longer, getting older, stepping back to question things, and objectively looking at what was going on for me to see the obvious contradictions.
What are you going to do with this when you get to the eternal state?
Rev.22 And he showed me a pure river of water of life,clear as crystal,proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.In the midst of the street of it,and on either side of the river,[was there]the tree of life,which bare twelve [manner of] fruits,[and]yielded her fruit every month:and the leaves of the tree[were]for the healing of the nations.

"I can't use those leaves. That's medicine and not trusting in God for healing!"

"That leaves us with a problem as to why things aren't/haven't happened the way we assume they should from what we read in the Bible."

I have the answer for you: The problem may be in the assuming and in the way you're reading the Bible. Exegesis vs. Eisegesis.
Maybe doctors and medicine aren't the little satanic antichrists we've made them out to be in our minds. Maybe they serve some purpose in God's plan and scheme of things afterall.

Now you go right ahead, anoint with oil and lay hands on the sick and let the Holy Spirit work it all out in people's lives. Just go right on showing love and compassion, and doing good works, telling of God's love and Christ dying for mankind, awaiting the kingdom of God, and not making an issue out of the particulars of how somebody gets better.

[johiyom]

"Yes Men" Some of you may refer to such as "Brown Nosers". On my job we call them
"Danglers" because they are so far up the foreman's behind that all you see is their legs dangling out. ROFLOL

[johiyom]

"... but encouraged as a legal right, to obtain through the force of faith in the here and now individually, as per the teachings of Jesus ( Matt 11:12, Mark 11:24, John 14:12, as well as the numerous accounts where Jesus either explains that someone was healed by their faith, or rebuking others for their lack of faith, even in the face of ridiculous circumstances, like the storm on Galilee )."

Isn't it interesting that Paul the Apostle didn't rebuke the storm in Acts 27, after all, he knew Jesus rebuked the disciples for their unbelief and fear during the storm on the sea of Galilee? I'm sure he had more faith than Hobart, you or me put together and then some. Paul ended up shipwrecked. Where was his faith? Oh, maybe God had already revealed something else to him concerning the matter. Does God have bigger plans, weightier purposes above and beyond our supposed exercising of the force of faith to do this or that? In other words, faith cannot be reduced to a formula concering all situations and circumstances in life. Reducing faith to simplistic, trite little steps in a manual and we'll get this, and we'll get that, this will happen and that will happen. Hmmm? Force of faith and going around commanding God concerning the works of his hands, as has been so misconstrued, just as Malcolm Webber pointed out.

[studious]

I agree that HF was ultimately responsible for the goings-on (and tragedies) at FA, but another theory I have (I may be way off) is that he was in such a different league with his ThD and publishing that his listeners couldn't keep up, but his yes men didn't tell him that they were suffering. Maybe he was so busy listening to himself that he didn't really listen to (or see) his congregants. Although the orthopaedic shoe is definitely in the same category as glasses, braces, and other paramedical devices, did it require someone with a "dr." title to prescribe it? Optometrists are doctors of optometry, though not medical drs.; dentists are doctors of dentistry, again not medical drs., but there may have been confusion among the congregation and they said "when in doubt do without." Who initiates the process of fitting an orthopaedic shoe? Does a podiatrist have to? Podiatrists are medical doctors. Ironic that HF may have visited a dr.--of course he could've done this before his conversion--while congregants stopped seeing optometrists and dentists, not to mention drs.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: ...did any of the apostles take Jesus statement and proceed then to move literal mountains by faith? Not even in the book of Acts, after receiving the Holy Spirit, do we find where one of them attempted it. In fact, not one of them attempted to even curse a fig tree by faith as Jesus had demonstrated. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thanks for your recent essays on encouraging unbelief. A+ on that effort, moron.

What do you do with the entirely selfish and stupid act of Peter getting out of the boat and walking on water, for no other purpose than some adolescent desire?...and yet we have Jesus rebuking him because he ultimately failed though for a time, it worked.

...and once again, here's the quintessential backslider, Peter, AFTER the resurrection, healing people through his shadow and raising the dead.

I call at least the shadow thing, 'greater works', since I didn't see Jesus doing that. I bet Peter got some gold stars on his celestial report card for that....unlike you, busily attempting to turn men away from the exercize of faith in God for anything other than the initial act of accepting Jesus as the Christ.

I betcher gittin' some failin' marks there, pard.

If it were up to you, Israel would have perished at the Red Sea crossing.

Compared to the heroes of faith, you are looking more like Dathan every day.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:....I was a member of one of the associated groups for almost 10 years and got the tapes.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....and sadly, that is to your shame. You ought to know better.

(Message edited by hombre on September 22, 2007)

[johiyom]

"Although the orthopaedic shoe is definitely in the same category as glasses, braces, and other paramedical devices, did it require someone with a "dr." title to prescribe it?"
Yes, doctors prescribe it and CPO's and LPO's fill the prescription.

[studious]

Then surely he acquired his shoe before his conversion. I haven't heard his tapes or read his books. The group I was in (International Churches of Christ) emphasized Acts 2:38, saying that you baptize (immerse) disciples only. Also, they didn't believe in tongues because, according to them, "when the perfect comes the imperfect shall disappear (NIV)" (don't know where in Paul's epistles this is--Corinthians?): the imperfect being tongues and signs, the perfect being the Word of God aka the Bible. You could say they worshipped the Bible, much as overcomers worship faith.

[johiyom]

Well I Cor. 13 says when that which is perfect is come then that which is IN PART(not imperfect) will be done away with. Obviously that which is perfect hasn't come because we don't see face to face yet. Paul is not talking about the Bible/Word of God but when the kingdom comes. Jesus hasn't returned yet. I Cor.14 and Eph. 4 teaches that God set in the church the ministry gifts; a five-fold ministry and that the gifts of the Spirit are for the church. They didn't pass away. Again, that which is perfect hasn't come yet.

Another thought:
hombre,
Nothing is to my shame and I DO KNOW BETTER. That's why I got the heck away from all yall- both pulpit pressure and peer pressure. They worked hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin.

hombre Christian wanted to be number 1
but his kingdom never comes, thy will be done
he couldn't stand the glory, he would be 2nd to none
the way hombre tells the story, Hobart's his Only Son

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Studious: ....another theory I have (I may be way off) is that he was in such a different league with his ThD and publishing that his listeners couldn't keep up......Ironic that HF may have visited a dr. ( orthopaedic shoe/podiatrist ) <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....a theory that I have, is that HEF was perhaps out of his league himself.

You and I both agree about what the Bible says, and so did HEF, but unlike us, HEF wasn't willing to fail to live another day, and perhaps come a little closer to understanding the mystery.

Faith, as HEF himself said, can take a lifetime. One can't get it in a moment of crisis.

...we don't have the benefit, like Peter, of having been able to learn directly from the Master. The closest thing we have is words from books, be it The Bible, or biographies and sermons by godly men who themselves were purported to have walked in these sorts of supernatural occurances.

One sermon, by Smith Wigglesworth, has always stood out to me. It is about the nature of faith, being tied to purity.

Purity.

That's a BIG word.

That word can encompass a world of things, including, as James says: ' Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world'.

The fact that Hobart had a orthopedic shoe, and continued to wear and be fitted for it ( I am reasonably sure that during the space of his ministry, he had to have worn several pairs out ), is of course a question that we could refer to and deduce that he indeed was not following what he preached.

I am personally privy to how that was interpreted, due to my own personal experience with a similar situation. It was the leaderships' opinion, that there is a difference between a 'healing' and a 'restorative miracle', where someone needs not just to be healed, but actually needs something that they don't have. A missing tooth would fit into that category, as well.

In my mind, however, I don't see Jesus making that distinction. I don't see Him separating supernatural manifestations into different categories.

I personally see that as faith-defeating, to think of having a leg grow out, as being more difficult to believe God for, than to believe Him for healing/deliverance from Pneumonia or Cancer.

That sort of thinking, to me, infers that it is more difficult to believe for, or that there are levels of faith that one attains unto.

I see Peter walking on water on his first attempt, fresh out of the boat, if you will.

Faith is about a relationship with God, not about attaining unto some elevated level by ones' own volition, or works.

...and to me...that is/was the failure of FA/HEF and the laity....
an attempt to aquire mountain-moving faith, through faith in themselves, and their ability to interpret scripture correctly....which in itself for many became a dead religious work, instead of a 'live', 'now', 'personal' relationship with The Living God.....which is what I see from Noah to Paul.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: hombre Christian wanted to be number 1 <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>


...I don't ever recall making that statement, or even inferring it..perhaps that is only how you see me.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[johiyom]

Another thought:
hombre,
Nothing is to my shame and I DO KNOW BETTER. That's why I got the heck away from all yall- both pulpit pressure and peer pressure. They worked hand in hand. Two sides of the same coin.


:-) I'm surprised, hombre. I was expecting this reply to that post:
I John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Or being called stupid and a moron again ....LOL.
I'll be stupid phoneyom moron as long as you'll be dangler.

[studious]

You're so hard on Hombre, as if he caused all this. Do y'all know each other personally? Is Hombre old enough to have participated as an adult in FA's first inception (1970s &amp; 80s)? I just turned 47 and remember the late 70s and early 80s as a time when lifestyle extremes, both in the world (partying, drugs) and religion (Moral Majority, Pentecostal and other groups) were becoming more visible.

[johiyom]

Hard on hombre? He's the one going around calling folks stupid morons and other various derogatory names all the time trying to belittle and brow beat. Attacking our characters and persons so I feel justified in what I've said. I make no apologies. I don't hate him but just for the record, I'm gonna bite his behind real good 'cause I ain't no punk....some young naive, impressionable, gullible fool like I was back then, just sittin' there takin' it. Bullies need to be bullied right back. I'm like Granny Klump: Come on, Cletus. You walkin' over, but cha limpin' back.

[studious]

Well, Hombre can dish it out...I won't even try to figure out who started this war of words and focus on the topics rather than the personalities.

[johiyom]

"...and to me...that is/was the failure of FA/HEF and the laity....
an attempt to aquire mountain-moving faith, through faith in themselves, and their ability to interpret scripture correctly....which in itself for many became a dead religious work, instead of a 'live', 'now', 'personal' relationship with The Living God.....which is what I see from Noah to Paul."

That's not what Hobart taught. There's no distinction between clergy(HEF) and laity. I read Charismatic Body Ministry, hombre. Everybody in the church is BOTH clergy and laity.
Everybody has a ministry and function; purpose in the Body of Christ.

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007)

[studious]

I'll dare to throw a wrench in the proceedings...as a historian currently reading up on the clergy/laity matter, I believe that the non-distinction between clergy &amp; laity is an American (i.e. cultural) rather than a Biblical phenomenon because the N.T. speaks of church leaders--elders, evangelists, and deacons. Need I say more?

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: I 'm like Granny Klump: Come on, Cletus. You walkin' over, but cha limpin' back.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hey, thanks for leading the crusade for brothery Christian love, as well as a superb example of the same.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

Right back atcha, darlin.

BTW: I'm 54, and yes, I was a first generation FA'er...and yes I know that HEF taught body ministry...duh...I was making a distinction in order to differentiate between the '5-fold' and the rest of the 'body'...but if you want to split hairs on semantics, go ahead, it won't be the first time you majored on a minor or twisted something to meet your needs.

....oh...

Studious, in case you haven't gotten far back enough into the archives, or even care to, the major contenders for stupidity here are, not necessarily in order of magnitude: Odysseus, Healed, Five Fold Prophet, and more recently, Passin Thru, Joniyom and that nazi guy whose name is too long to care about.

[studious]

I saw a thread by 5-Fold Prophet listing a whole bunch of links "proving" that medicine has occult origins. I don't think that even HEF would have agreed with 5-Fold's point had he been alive to see it, though he might've been intrigued by his research...

[johiyom]

The days of the week and months of the year have pagan occult origins too. Better throw out them calendars. Satan might be using them as open doors into your life to oppress you with demonic spirits. LOL

[johiyom]

"...but if you want to split hairs on semantics, go ahead, it won't be the first time you majored on a minor or twisted something to meet your needs."

You have the unmitigated gall. FA and Hobart and you are the epitome of splitting hairs, majoring on a minor and twisting to meet their needs.
How about songs in minor keys not being of God?
Twisted Ps. 82 saying it's teaching about our dominion.
Twisted II Tim 3:5 saying denying the power is denying the supernatural when it's talking about godliness.
Twisted Heb.11 dying in faith and not receiving the promise(concerning those dying trying to believe for healing) when it's talking about a difference between promises patriarchs did receive by faith in their lifetimes and the promise(s) they saw afar off concerning God's unfolding revelation fulfilled in Jesus Christ(new and better covenant)and a heavenly kingdom.

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 22, 2007)

[johiyom]

Studious, in case you haven't gotten far back enough into the archives, or even care to, the major contender for arrogance and denial of the obvious concerning Hobart's and FA's teachings here is, not necessarily in order of magnitude: hombre, hombre, hombre, and more recently hombre and hombre and that hombre guy whose name is too short to care about.

[johiyom]

From the 2 Simple Questions Thread

hombre said:
"Self denial would be denying the mortal body something needful
for it's survival or sustenance...in the search for the Divine."

I replied:

Like denying your kids or yourself medical treatment in your search to prove you had faith for divine healing?

[johiyom]

"Hey, thanks for leading the crusade for brothery Christian love, as well as a superb example of the same."

But we're all stupid and morons and various other adjectives that you spew out on a continual basis...hombre you're nothing but a self-righteous, inflated, windbag, hypocrite.

[johiyom]

hombre said this:

"I can forgive others for anything, as the Lord has done, and does for me, but what I can not tolerate is the twisting of scripture to meet the lifestyle requirements of whoever decides to do whatever they want with it.”

Yet he twists and twists and twists and JUSTIFIES and excuses and glosses over and tries to rationalize and come to terms with what was wrong with Hobart, FA and it's teaching. Sometimes he'll admit things but he'll only go so far. Then people like me are accused of being "intellectual" because we go over that line they've drawn in the sand.
He's had more relevant commentary from numerous posters on this site to fill a million lifetimes.
A mind is a terrible thing...- keep your butt in school, hombre.
People like him are like I was at one time: afraid of reality and the truth. That ministry and church produced a spirit of fear. Fear of doctors, fear of objects, fear of satan and demons and fear of being deceived because everybody and everything outside of Hobart and FA was not of God, fear of thinking for themselves, fear of questioning, fear, fear, fear, fear....
Don't trouble the waters, don't come against their precious Hobart, don't question things down to the very core and the nitty gritty, because their whole structure of belief will come crashing down like a house of cards. They've built their whole life and relationship to God on divine healing. They don't understand grace. They can't see any Christianity or discipleship or relationship with Jesus whatsoever outside of faith for divine healing. They worship divine healing and they worship faith in faith. Like the Israelites, making an idol out of a serpent on a pole- a piece of brass. Nehushtan. II Kings 18:4 Hobart is their Moses. Making mysteries out of what is no mystery at all. Robbed of the simplicity of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007)

[johiyom]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

Some folks, like hombre, just can't handle the facts.
Don't be afraid of a good debate. Don't fear what you perceive to be poison, from hombre or anyone else.
If you drink any deadly thing it won't hurt you.
Come on guys and gals, get in the ring, and take hombre on. Say what you've got to say.

[johiyom]

Throw the ring away, hombre. Get rid of it. It belongs in Mount Doom.


http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

http://www.cesnur.org/tolkien/033.htm

[johiyom]

And while I'm on a roll I'll go so far as to say that Hobart and FA had the nerve to teach and preach against Shepherdship, Neo-Discipleship and the bondage and abuse that it caused in people's lives yet HOBART HIMSELF became the same thing over believer's lives, going so far as to stick his nose into the sexual relations of those bound in the covenant of marriage, calling oral sex sodomy. Scripture please! There is none.
Marriage is honorable and the BED IS UNDEFILED.
What God joins together LET NO MAN, not even Hobart Freeman and his lofty opinions, divide asunder.
As I've stated before, the JW's got into this mess and wreaked havoc upon marriages and families. See the book Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz for the background on this episode.
There, I've said it.

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007)

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007)

[christlicher_soldat]

Hi all. Sorry I'm a little late. F.A.C.T.net inadvertently deleted my account in the updates, so I had to wait for the re-activation. Hombre, I am not a National Socialist. If my user name is too long, don't be shy about shortening it to "soldat."

Returning to where I left off, the subject matter from 1Cor. 1-4 is structured around the question of factions forming in the church at Corinth. In ch.3, we may outline all the statements leading up to 'all things are yours' in the following way:

+ v.1-4, The Corinthians are carnal babes because of their divisions over ministers.
+ v.5-10, All these ministers were sent to build the same structure.
+ v.11-15, We are expected to build that structure with quality materials.
+ v.16-20, We are expected not to defile it with worldly vanities (such as carnal divisions, perhaps?) because it is a holy temple (or literally, 'sanctuary').

'Therefore' -- for all these reasons -- 'let no man glory in men' -- the ministers who have contributed to the building of this temple -- 'for all things are yours; whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas' -- again, those ministers -- 'or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; and ye are Christ's; and Christ God's' -- everything, even death, is for your edification. The proof is in the pudding of ch.4:1 -- 'Let a man so account of us...' That is, [i]in like manner, think of us as yours, as being for your service, as well as for God's. This is about ministry, not dominion.

[johiyom]

Amen, and thank you christlicher_soldat. A very thorough post and right on target. We're not all stupid morons, fools, etc. as hombre says.

[christlicher_soldat]

Thank you, johiyom. I can't help but wonder if hombre might construe the deletion of my account as judgment from God. However, to put a twist on something once said of the Christian Science religion, there is no divine dignity for a god whose vengeance can be defeated by a simple re-registration. :-D

[studious]

Call it playing devil's advocate--just looking for the core of this discussion. I found, in the other thread, "Swearing Oaths to Medical Deities," this by Hombre:

"When a clergyman gets such a hold on peoples lives that they start obeying him rather than Him, that's when things like the Inquisition begin...and I wholeheartedly agree with maintaining ones independent thought and discernment in judging religious matters."

He understands as much as anyone else the danger of following a man slavishly. The question is WHOM do you trust? He still trusts HEF, for better or worse; Catholics (supposedly) trust the Pope; churches trust their leaders or they can't function, not that all should function if they're heretical--let God do the sifting. I think that Hombre, at least now, knows better than to go over the edge of the cliff, if you will, with a human leader though I think you're saying he would because many DID go over the cliff and to their deaths because of him, with HEF going over himself. So, Hombre, would you have? Or is this an "if I knew then what I know now" meaningless question?

[johiyom]

The story of Job is lesson for the FA mentality:
In a nutshell, Job is called righteous and serves God faithfully. He loses just about everything and gets sick(and yes, God allows Satan, the source of sickness and calamity, to afflict him). Here come his friends, just like FA people, who believe that the reason Job is suffering is because he deserves it and did something wrong. God wouldn't do that or should we say allow that if Job had all his spiritual ducks in a row in his relationship with God. God is a God of blessing and he wouldn't let that happen to you if you were pure with him. You're sick because:
1 you have sin in your life
2 you have a demon
3 you are not meeting some condition
4 you really don't have the faith for healing
etc.

Job maintained his innocence and while he cursed the day he was born he never once curses God.
The only thing we could accuse Job of and find fault with him is that the thing which he feared came upon him. But I don't view that verse as some sin or unrighteousness on Job's part because God himself says Job was righteous. God, in the end, rebukes Job but at the same time defends and vindicates him and says that his words were right. His friends, on the other hand, were told that what they said was altogether not right and they needed to go to Job and make amends.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.
Job has a true revelation of God. He sees and knows God in a way he did not before.
God heals and restores Job.
So my advice is this: every Christian is not sick because of the 4 points mentioned above. That is a Job's friends mentality. That is the kind of mentality the faith message produces. Trite little simplistic faith formula theology answers for the complex difficulties and questions of our human existence.
Again the sovereinty of God must be kept in balance with faith in his promises for blessings. The FA mentality is a folly and does not really see and know God like it claims.
Healing is in the atonement but still the righteous suffer.

[studious]

Can't argue with that--good analogy (Job's friends).

[hardbones]

As far as your comments on Job are concerned HEF would likely agree with you. I certainly do. I heard him teach on stuff like that many times. There is something greater than our faith and that is God's will or God's sovereignty.
As far as oral sex is concerned it really seems to be a bee in your bonnet doesn't it? I think an excellent case could be made against it from Rom.1/26. It could mean oral sex or lesbian sex or both. Personally I agree with HEF it is a homosexual act being used by hetrosexual people and that it is not natural. I think it is entirely in the purview of a xian minister to speak to private family issues. Provided it doesn't go to far and I don't see that he did on that issue.
If a further comment is required to any reply it will have to wait as I am short on time.

[johiyom]

It's not a bee in my bonnet. I just believe that it is not scripturally justified. I believe Romans 1:26 is talking about women with women...lesbian sex, not oral sex between a husband and wife. Homosexuals fondle one another's genitals. Does that mean that if a husband and wife fondle one another's genitals in foreplay they are engaging in an unnatural homosexual act? It is natural and a matter of conscience in the privacy and covenant of marriage if the couple chooses it. But you are entitled to your opinion on the matter. That's all I have to say on that.
Ooops, I forgot something I was going to include in this post, so I must edit. I think oral sex is alluded to in several verses of the Song of Solomon between heterosexual couples.

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 23, 2007)

[johiyom]

I want to ask these questions. Were there any Down's Syndrome people at FA? Any totally blind?
Any dwarfs? Any totally deaf? Adults or children?
Any with obvious debilitating birth defects?
Any ministry to deaf people, for instance?

[christlicher_soldat]

"Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste" (Song 2:3).

"Awake, O north wind, and come, wind of the south; make my garden breathe out fragrance. Let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden and eat its choice fruits!” (Song 4:16)

“I said, ‘I will climb the palm tree. I will take hold of its fruit stalks.’ Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine" (Song 7:7).

Can there be any doubt about what's being described here? It doesn't take a dirty mind.

[hombre]

...sorry kids, it's the weekend, and for now, your questions and comments will have to wait for my return, during the normal hours of the school week.

Try to remember that I hold special hours for my very special ed students.

Also, remember to eat a nourishing breakfast, as that will help give you energy for your bodies and your very special minds.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

All for now, see you kids later.

Mr Hombre
Director of Special Education

[johiyom]

Not to jump to conclusions or take offence by an assumption but for some odd reason I get the feeling that hombre is now calling us "retarded", but in a nice, coy way.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif
I used to think John Cougar Melloncamp was a place for retarded kids in the summer. j/k LOL

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Der Ungläubige: "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste" (Song 2:3).

"Awake, O north wind, and come, wind of the south; make my garden breathe out fragrance. Let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden and eat its choice fruits!” (Song 4:16)

“I said, ‘I will climb the palm tree. I will take hold of its fruit stalks.’ Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine" (Song 7:7).

Can there be any doubt about what's being described here? It doesn't take a dirty mind.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hey, you're really good with metaphors aren't you?

...and utilizing your inferred method of interpreting them, could you share the meaning of this one, and how it relates to you personally?

'.....And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.....'
~ Matt. 25:6

[rachelengland]

Hobart Freeman was a cult leader-his message led many to an early death including himself.... R

[hombre]

Rachel England is a person that is entitled to her own opinions.....in the United States, and presumably on this board..... for right or wrong.......H

[rachelengland]

Thank you...and I feel I am right. I am always glad we have been able to keep the peace despite the fact we disagree wholeheartedly.

Others would do well on this forum if they had your candor.R

[christlicher_soldat]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

hombre: Hey, you're really good with metaphors aren't you?

...and utilizing your inferred method of interpreting them, could you share the meaning of this one, and how it relates to you personally?

'.....And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.....'
~ Matt. 25:6<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Seeing as "concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son -- except the Father" (Mk. 13:32, YLT; cf. Mt. 24:36, v.42 &amp; v.50 and Lk. 12:39 &amp; v.46), I would infer that "midnight" is said in reference to Christ's repeated parable that he will come as a thief in the middle of the night, "night" itself being a metaphor for a time of moral depravity and darkness. To state, as some have done, that a so-called "firstfruits rapture" will occur at precisely 12:00 a.m. strikes me as absurd and in contradiction with the verses I have cited.

How it relates to me personally would be contingent on whether I believe in a firstfruits rapture. I don't, because that doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic Society of Jesus to counteract the Reformation's teaching that the Pope was the Antichrist. Hence, in my opinion, "go ye out to meet him" is little more than a fleshing out of the parable from which you draw Mt. 25:6.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

: RachelEngland: Others would do well on this forum if they had your candor.R <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Why, thank you, Rachel.

...IMO, they DO.

...it's just that they'd rather continue butchering a dead man, and anybody who disagrees with them that is el problemo here.
It isn't just about opinions...it's about personal attacks and defamation of character through whatever one assumes anothers beliefs to be.

In that respect, it's more like a religious take on the Stooges.

[johiyom]

Rachel,

hombre can dish it out but he just can't take it.

[johiyom]

After reading the comical Swearing Oathes to Medical Deities comments-fivefold's prophecies and divine warnings of judgment, super spirituality, arguing over covered by the blood, washed and cleansed by the blood, rebuking each other in the the name of Jesus, not receiving each other's spirits, binding and loosing, whatever you want to call what went on- all those spiritual circus acts, I must share the vision I had concerning hombre(tongue in cheek, of course).
The anointing of the Spirit is upon me so heavily.
I see a tornado coming at hombre's house. He runs to his basement or storm cellar(if he doesn't have one then I'll say his crawl space) instead of rebuking the storm. Where's his faith?
He knows that if he tries that he'll end up like Elijah, caught up in a whirlwind, only it wouldn't be a good thing like it was for Elijah, because he won't be found centuries later standing on the Mount of Transfiguration talking to Jesus about ANYTHING in particular. I now have the unction to speak a prophecy. For thus saith the Lord, basements and storm cellars are not of God. They are the arm of the flesh and the same as a negative confession of defeat. A sign of a lack of faith in God. Run ye not away from the enemy but run ye toward it as David did Goliath. Get rid of your basements and storm cellars just as you did your TV's. Why do ye not rebuke the storms, O, my people, my children, for I will send you many storms to test your faith until you get it right.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[hombre]

Ha-ha, good one, PhoneyYom.

...but anyone can produce a 'prophecy' of generalities.

...and anyone can state that 'the spirit is upon them heavily'....how would we know that?

...and of course, anyone can have a nonsensical dream.

Besides, of all people to trust in supernatural manifestations, it certainly shouldn't be you, who deny the power of God to do much of anything in the present time.

BTW: It is YOU who need to get it right.

Day after day, misqouting and maligning HEF, of whom you apparently know little to nothing about...perhaps you were basically asleep when you were at FAs' outreach...or you were one of those who 'didn't get it'....I don't ever remember, for example, HEF legislating anything. If you did something that you regret now, that's your own problem....but of course, it is much easier to beat a dead horse, than it is to look into a mirror.

Good luck with that, false prophet.

I now have the 'unction' to tell you to take your own advice, and also to find out who the 'enemy' really is, for I believe that you are basically taking your marching orders from him, in your delusion to convince everyone that Jesus didn't mean what Mark and Matthew quoted Him as saying ( Mark 11:22-24, Matthew 21: 21-22 ).

Oh, and as one grows, and becomes more accomplished in life, one will find that he can indeed forge a personality for himself that is individual and unique; of course, until that time, many find that copying the work of mature persons that they admire helps them to focus on 'the how' of learning to do it for themselves. Thank you for your plagaristic flatteries.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:

1.) Rachel,

hombre can dish it out but he just can't take it.

2. I must share the vision I had concerning hombre(tongue in cheek, of course). <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Uh-huh.

Looks to me like I'm getting the upper hand here. Apparently, PhoneyYom is obsessing over losing his war of words with me that he is now losing it mentally.

He is now having either dreams or 'visions' regarding his subconscious desires toward me, and confusing those with coming from God.

..of course, those are the sorts of things that happen when one toys with the supernatural, and doesn't have the understanding behind them to do it with....and now we are suppossed to believe in a 'prophecy' ......'from God'......that this guy gives, who doesn't even believe that God means what He says in the Bible.

...uh...Mark 11:24.

That tells me he's getting his info from someone other than the God of the Bible....and that would be either the devil, or his own spirit.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point and assume that it is emanating from his own spirit, since he so wishes for my demise and his supremacy.

BTW: Hey, PhonyYom...you just lost the unregenerate/unbeliever listening crowd you had by 'having a vision' and 'speaking a prophecy'.

..everyone knows that God doesn't use the gifts from 1 Cor 12 anymore....isn't that what you are teaching now?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

PS: I haven't had any dreams, or visions about you....but I'll let you know if I do.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Der Ungläubige:

1.) to state, as some have done, that a so-called "firstfruits rapture" will occur at precisely 12:00 a.m. strikes me as absurd and in contradiction with the verses I have cited.

2.)How it relates to me personally would be contingent on whether I believe in a firstfruits rapture. I don't, because that doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic Society of Jesus to counteract the Reformation's teaching that the Pope was the Antichrist.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

1.) ....of course, HEF never taught that a 'first fruit' rapture would occur at any time which a man could know ( Mark 13:32 ).

2.) I'll need some reference support for that.

[william]

Hombre you'd better watch out. You might be overwhelmed if this guy has as his tag team partner the venerable FiveFold. Now that is a match-up made for tv!

You won't get much stage time though... those two will be tripping over each other in their frenzied gyrations. My concern is that 5-fold will turn on his partner... especially when he finds out that he is a medicine man!

You could avoid any real conflict by bringing a dog to the fight, but be sure to remember not to use the word <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> [rhymes with kiss] when your dog marks out his territory, fivefold will go bananas!


William (looking through glasses darkly)

[christlicher_soldat]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

hombre: 1.) ....of course, HEF never taught that a 'first fruit' rapture would occur at any time which a man could know ( Mark 13:32 ).

2.) I'll need some reference support for that.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>1) I never said HEF did teach that. I said some have taught that. You asked for my opinion on a verse, and I gave it.

2)http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/antichrist_unveiled.htm (Reformed source)
http://leftbehindanswered.com/no-7-year-second-chance.htm (Reformed source)
http://www.revelation-illustrated.com/book.php?pid=78 (Reformed source)
http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib6.htm (unspecified Continuationist source)
http://www.wswelstar.org/bibleclasses/dispensationalism.pdf (Missouri Synod Lutheran source)

for a more scholarly perspective, also see:
Patterson, M. (1999). "Our unspeakable comfort": Irving, Asbury, and the origins of the pretribulation rapture. Fides et historia, 31(1), 66.

Note that none of these are Adventist resources. In fact, the unspecified Continuationist resource has articles intended to refute Historicism, Sabbatarian or otherwise.

[johiyom]

We're not allowed to quote those verses from 2 Kings and Isaiah in my church. We take very seriously the admonishment to let no corrupt communication proceed out of our mouthes, but sometimes the Spirit is so heavy upon the five-fold that we had to come to some sort of understanding....SO, we let them quote it now on rare occasions only on the condition that they change the word dung to boo boo or ca ca and the word p*ss to tinkle.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif
The KJV only ministries persecuted us mercilessly, nevertheless.

[johiyom]

hombre, the vision and prophecy thing was simply a comedy; a satire; a parody; a joke....you're taking it way too seriously.Obviously you didn't get it- it went over your head. I have no subconscious desire for your demise by tornado, believe me. You are being paranoid.
And your tirade is an example of what I was making fun of in the first place. The postings of fivefoldprophet, for example. People rebuking each other in the name of Jesus, pleading the blood against one another, prophesying this and that, saying that's not the Holy Spirit but your spirit or a demonic spirit and I don't receive your spirit,etc.
And the only thing that was being toyed with was your mind, not the supernatural.
I have never denied that Jesus didn't mean what he said in Mark 11:24. I said that the problem isn't with Mark 11:24, but with human imbalance, how people go about applying things in their daily lives.
Now you call me a false prophet, on par with the fivefoldfiddler- the nut case. I would have had to have claimed I was a prophet in the first place, as I guess he does, of which I AM NOT.
I was just somebody gittin' your goat and pullin' your leg to make a point in a humorous way.
If you'll scroll back in the postings you'll see I responded to 'studious' saying that the fivefold ministry gifts are set in the church and the gifts of the Spirit are for the church.
I have never denied the supernatural.
Enjoy your upper hand, hombre. Enjoy your victory in the war of words. Enjoy thinking I've lost it mentally. Gloat in it. Go to church on Sunday, get up and testify how you got a 1upmanship on ol' PhoneyYom, then do a glory march around the church praising God if that'll make you feel better.
There's so much in your ravenous response to my comedy sketch that I don't have the energy to try to answer it all and defend myself. Whew!

(Message edited by JOhiyoM on September 26, 2007)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom: We're not allowed to quote those verses from 2 Kings and Isaiah in my church. We take very seriously the admonishment to let no corrupt communication proceed out of our mouthes, but sometimes the Spirit is so heavy upon the five-fold that we had to come to some sort of understanding....SO, we let them quote it now on rare occasions only on the condition that they change the word dung to boo boo or ca ca and the word p*ss to tinkle.

The KJV only ministries persecuted us mercilessly, nevertheless.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

You bunch of complete wussies.

Who do you think invented the system that makes dung?

Yes, I well remember, back in my unregenerate days, using the word 'dung' was probably one of the worst things I ever did.

I even said 'poopy' once.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

BTW...how do you soften the book of Judges?

...or do you just throw that out with Mark 11:24?

Man, I guess I'll have to give you the complete benefit of the doubt for now on, and just realize that you are in possession of the whole truth and nothing but the truth ( ooops!...I sad 'but'...I am so embarassed ), especially since you have suffered such severe persection, and from those who ought to know better!!!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

...don't forget to pick up your cookies, kool-aid and marshmallows at the refreshment counter.....

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
hombre, the vision and prophecy thing was simply a comedy; a satire; a parody; a joke....you're taking it way too seriously.Obviously you didn't get it- it went over your head. I have no subconscious desire for your demise by tornado, believe me. You are being paranoid.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Fascinating.
So.......first, you have the 'unmitigated gall' to use the phrase: 'thus saith the Lord' in a false prophecy, knowing full well that it is something that you are making up.
....and you tell us how 'heavy' the 'annointing of the Spirit' is upon you when you are doing it, which said 'prophecy' is a direct culmination of your 'dream'.

Today, you tell us how 'holy' your church group is...so 'holy' in fact, that they cannot use the word 'dung' from the KJV, being beneath their righteous dignity.

You absolute hypocrite....well have I surnamed you 'PhoneyYom'.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
And your tirade is an example of what I was making fun of in the first place. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Tirade?...so then, speaking the truth in candor, or expressing opinions that differ from yours now is a tirade?

You really do need to consult a dictionary when you use words that are beyond your mental comprehension,
of course, there is the probability, that you do know the meaning of the word, and like the previous examples that you have set for us,
are attempting to deceive others by spinning words against your enemies and for your own benefit.

BTW: Are you also a Democrat?

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
The postings of fivefoldprophet, for example. People rebuking each other in the name of Jesus, pleading the blood against one another, prophesying this and that, saying that's not the Holy Spirit but your spirit or a demonic spirit and I don't receive your spirit,etc.
And the only thing that was being toyed with was your mind, not the supernatural. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Huh. Looks like William hit it on the head.
You are the spiritual brother of 'fivefoldfalseprophet'.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
I have never denied that Jesus didn't mean what he said in Mark 11:24. I said that the problem isn't with Mark 11:24, but with human imbalance, how people go about applying things in their daily lives.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Well, of course it is.
What Jesus said in Mark 11:24, is OK and all, it's just that it doesn't mean what it says...right?

You religious turd...oops, I mean dung....ooops, I mean ca-ca/doo-doo.
...are you aware that adding to or taking away from what God said, as well as twisting it, is a serious crime against the Godhead?

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
Now you call me a false prophet, on par with the fivefoldfiddler- the nut case. I would have had to have claimed I was a prophet in the first place, as I guess he does, of which I AM NOT. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...I wasn't the one saying 'thus saith the Lord'...when I knew it was not.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
I was just somebody gittin' your goat and pullin' your leg to make a point in a humorous way. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

If I were you, I wouldn't do it using the phrase 'thus saith the Lord' any more.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
If you'll scroll back in the postings you'll see I responded to 'studious' saying that the fivefold ministry gifts are set in the church and the gifts of the Spirit are for the church.
I have never denied the supernatural. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Nope. Got me there.
I understand that you don't deny the 'supernatural', just the effectual working of it through the clear promises of God.....i.e. Mark 11:24.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
Enjoy your upper hand, hombre. Enjoy your victory in the war of words. Enjoy thinking I've lost it mentally.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

It's like this Yom.
You speak religious falsehood, and I feel a compulsion to correct it.
That's basically all there is to it.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
Gloat in it. Go to church on Sunday, get up and testify how you got a 1upmanship on ol' PhoneyYom, then do a glory march around the church praising God if that'll make you feel better. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

....I wouldn't do something like that, even though I do use the word 'dung' when I see its' occurrence in the KJV.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

PhoneyYom:
There's so much in your ravenous response to my comedy sketch that I don't have the energy to try to answer it all and defend myself. Whew! <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Again, we need to go back to the dictionary and look up the word 'ravenous' to see what it says.

1. extremely hungry; famished; voracious: feeling ravenous after a hard day's work.
2. extremely rapacious: a ravenous jungle beast.
3. intensely eager for gratification or satisfaction.

So then, in a debate, or a 'communication of disagreement', the person who is on the opposite side, is to be termed 'ravenous', upon an appropriate response from his/her point of view?...that would also qualify you my 'ravenous' friend. You have yet to miss an opportunity to malign me.

...and need I remind you again, that using the phrase 'Thus saith the Lord' when the Lord is 'not saying' is a far greater offense that saying 'dung' or even 'sh*t' will ever be.

[healed]

About restoring Eden, I have a problem with that, though the Kingdom is here on a spriritual basis. Adam and Eve weren't supposed to die physically but they sinned and brought death on themselves. We die. I can't see an Edenic restoration anywhere in the Bible, though Jesus is the new Adam. We're not new Adams are we? Jesus said we'd do greater things...but I haven't figured that one out yet."

In referance to the above post, I was just wondering what ever happened to Hobarts "Garden of Eden" on the lake? I heard about it so many times on the tapes, and often wondered what that place must of looked like. I thought it odd that people were living in trailers and he was exalted up in some estate on a lake. It was weird because it was like if we just beleived in Gods promises, we could have what he had, Freeman was living proof of the abundant life, but the only reason Freeman had all that he had was because he was taking from those who didnt have and the fact that Freeman wasnt required to pay taxes on the income he received. The fivefold ministry at FA were all driving around in brand new mobile homes as well. This is just one more example of where the Hombres and Duncans are blind to the cult mentality of FA. The leadership became wealthy while the flock was poor, but if the flock just belived those promises, they too could live the abundant life. In reality, however, the only people living the abundant life was Freeman and his ministers.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-healed: but the only reason Freeman had all that he had was because he was taking from those who didnt have...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...Oh REALLY?

I'd like for you to show some proof of that please.

Just bring in for show and tell, one of those church pledge envelopes from FA, like all the denoms and non-denoms like to hand out. SHOW ME ONE TAPE where Hobart put on a beg-a-thon, or AT ANY POINT forced, co-erced or required money from ANYONE attending FA.

You're a liar, UN-healed, precisely like your father, the devil.

[rachelengland]

"You're a liar, UN-healed, precisely like your father, the devil". H

Well,well, well..I love this, ANYTIME someone disagrees with one of these so called "christian ministers of the word" we are either told to enjoy our trip to a firey hell or we are compared to the devil..makes me think we must doing something right.R



(Message edited by rachelengland on November 12, 2007)

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

RachelEngland: ANYTIME someone disagrees with one of these so called "christian ministers of the word"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, Rachel, since you're a woman ( or at least signing on as one ), and definitely one who is easily manipulated by liars like 'UN-healed', 'Phoney-Yom', 'Der Sold-out', and the rest of their buddies....nevertheless, it sounds like you enjoy 'ridin with the hood'.

...BTW...you might want to hitch up with Hillarys' campaign, you'd make a good echo for her.

..I'll let you get back to your bottle now, cross-eyed.

Have a nice day.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

PS: I'm not a nice guy.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[healed]

"...Oh REALLY?

I'd like for you to show some proof of that please."

Why cant you see the proof I laid out in the previous post? I said it was odd that Freeman lived in an estate on the lake that he refered to as the Garden of Eden, while the rest of us lived in near poverty. The poverty conditions came from the teachings of Freeman that taught us that is was sin to live in debt. How can one afford a decent home without debt? Well you can be a minister and live tax free. Otherwise its hard. You didnt address any of this in your post, and once again your dancing all around the issues. Nothing has changed with you Hombre, your still the Freemanite you always were and always will be.

[hombre]

Hey MORON.....

The last time I looked, it was not a crime to possess money and/or live on a lake. In addition, MORON, HEF wasn't a tax evader, nor did he take the discount from 941 ( SS ) taxes that ministers of 'recognized' denominations routinely take as part of what the government has entitled them to, since he wasn't a part of an officially sanctioned religious denomination by the government. Yes, I did address the issue STUPID, you simply failed to comprehend ( that means 'to understand' ), but that doesn't surprise me since you've told us that it runs in the family. As usual, you're a complete UNREGENERATE, IGNORANT MORON, and your diatribes and propagandizing against HEF and FA have no substance.

...did you understand that?

[duncan]

Healed,
Have you ever driven by HEF's old house? As a child and a teenager, I had the opportunity to be in his home several times and have driven by it as an adult. Yes, it was on a lake, but it wasn't even 2000 square feet and had a tiny front yard. I hardly think that would qualify as an "estate."

I will also confirm what Hombre said (although in a much nicer way), that HEF could take no tax breaks as a minister, because FA was not incorporated as a tax-exempt entity. As such, the church had to pay property taxes, and HEF could not take deductions as an ordained minister.

As for debt, I agree with you that it is rare that anyone can own a home without debt. As such, I have a mortgage on my house, as well as some rental property I have. Now this is not to say that I like debt. My goal is to pay off my debt as soon as possible, because I don't think debt is the smart way to live.

Duncan

[rachelengland]

Ohhhhh hombre..you precious man of "GOD" or shall I say of precious man of Hobart Freeman(I wasn't agreeing with healed just thought it was interesting how you hooked him in with the devil)..simmer down..Hobart was just as bad if not worse than the money whores he preached a message that KILLED people....but Karma caught up with him!

I'm alllll woman and allllllways right..You are just like every other man worshipper on factnet and that's okay baby, I have my crushes too....


p.s. I am not a democrate-Rudy Guilani..08

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

RachelUnglund: Well,well, well..I love this, ANYTIME someone disagrees with one of these so called "christian ministers of the word" we are either told to enjoy our trip to a firey hell or we are compared to the devil..makes me think we must doing something right.R <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I'm sooooo sorry.

I really didn't give this the attention it deserved.

1. The word 'ANYTIME', would also apply to every time that I say something rational, and back it up with BIBLE, you and your ilk must find a way to combat it with what you assume to be 'intelligence' and/or 'common sense' which is but spiritual ingorance masquerading as such. Simple fact is, neither you nor any of your unbelieving friends could punch your way out of a wet paper bag, spiritually speaking. Your lack of comprehension of things spiritual, even when spelled out in the most elementary of terms is astounding. You say you have eyes, but you are blind. You say you have ears, but you are deaf. You say you have knowledge, but you don't. I counsel you to receive Jesus as the Christ, that your ears and eyes may be opened.

2. There are absolutes and conditions in Christianity, Rachel, unlike the world that you belong to, which is gray, muddy and without clarity and meaning. When we are told by Jesus that 'unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish', do you then include Him within the group of 'heartless ministers' like myself?

3. You are definitely not a Christian yourself, Rachel, if you find yourself disagreeing with the statements I have made. I'm not putting myself on a pedestal equal with God, I'm merely restating what He has already said. If you don't like that, it only proves my point.....of course you could be one of those who thinks that church attendance spells salvation, and you've been spoonfed ignorance from a pulpit, in which case I would counsel you to begin to measure what the Bible says against what you have been hearing....but that takes work, unlike going along with the crowd who enjoy their position of safety in numbers, or as Jesus termed it: the broad road.

..oh and thanks for the reference to 'karma', and the new age philosophy of female superiority, we all know now, exactly who you are. May God help your BF/SO/Husband/Wife...whatever.....

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[rachelengland]

"You are definitely not a Christian yourself, Rachel, if you find yourself disagreeing with the statements I have made. I'm not putting myself on a pedestal equal with God", Hombre

You hombre are NOT a follower of Christ..you are a follower of man and stop fooling yourself because you are not fooling any of us here who know what a dangerous, lunatic Freeman was...he wasn't anoited and he wasn't untouchable.

You do nothing to defend Christ's message-with your low blows and ignorance....Christ as it is recorded had incredible respect for females-a man who constantly knocks women around with words and deed is not a man at all as you have proved ..you really need to change that user name to PUTO...

Have a great day!

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

RachelUnglund: you really need to change that user name to PUTO... <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Tsk, tsk...derogatory name caling in Español.

My, what an example you make for all of us.

Well, of course I'm a lunatic follower of a man....and that man would be Jesus the Christ. ...wasn't it Him that was the one who said:

'...whatsoever things you desire, when you pray believe that you receive them and you shall have them.' ?

...and......

I believe that it was Hobart who merely quoted Him.

...as I have said many times in the past...if you have a problem with that verse, take it up WITH GOD.....Hobart didn't make that one up, nor the many like it.

. ..and don't try copping out with that load of BS about it not meaning what it says...you and the rest of the mental midget squadron know full well that it means what it says just as much as John 3:16.

...toodles....

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[matt_hatter]

My, what an example you make for all of us.

What planet are you living on, hombre? A cursory glance through your posts yield the names, "moron, mental midgets, cross-eyed, devil child" etc.

You lose all credibility when you start down the path of name calling. There are several of you on f-net like this, and it is ironic to me that besides the name calling, you all share some narrow view of religion (I won't use the word Christianity out of respect) and if others happen to disagree with you, the insults start.

Grow up, read the Bible a little closer, especially relating to Christian character. People can disagree without having to put up with your childish rantings.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Mad-Hatter: ....What planet are you living on, hombre? A cursory glance through your posts .......<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yes....erhum.....that tells me in several words, that you haven't followed the course of my writing here for the last 2 years, nor do you have the slightest idea about the character or beliefs of those I confront.

BTW: Like I care, Mommy.....as though no one here besides me has ever said anything less than covered with some sort of sickeningly gooey misguided attempt to express 'love to all'.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

BTW2: .... get some cajones, wuss. You act like you've been whipped by Rachel. ...but then again, maybe that's the deal. Maybe you think she needs some chivalrous protection from you and your big white steed.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Mad-Hatter: ...you lose all credibility when you start down the path of name calling.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

.... without saying what you and the rest lose when you start criticizing the content of what I have been saying for over 2 years now, may I hasten to add that I am deeply offended by the derogatory nature of the term: 'name-calling', which I assume refers to the usage of my 'descriptive analyses' of said person/s.

I would appreciate it for now on, if you would please refrain from such inflammatory communications, and instead use what I consider to be a more appropriate, humane and politically correct term: i.e.: 'descriptive analyses'.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

..if you don't, I'm telling Mommy.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[matt_hatter]

You just proved my point. Hope you find peace someday.

[healed]

To Brothers in Christ Hombre and Duncan,

Please read the post again about Hobart and his riches. Did I say he was a tax evader? Read carefully brothers Hombre and Duncan (notice how I am avoiding calling you names) I said he was EXEMPT from paying taxes because of his occupation. Ministers are not required to pay taxes. Did I say anything about tax evasion? Duncan, I expect that you would be defensive since your father was a five fold minister himself, and you surely were better off than most at FA. Dont even try and spin it/divert the topic by telling us FA had to pay property taxes. Of course they did. Freeman did not pay income taxes neither did the five fold fools he ordained. They are no different than any other minister out there. Sure, there are property taxes and other tarrifs that they were required to pay Im sure, but not the taxes that a regular employed has to pay, not anything close to it. You defend Freeman again with his small 2000 square feet home, but I ask you; was it paid for? Was he renting it? I think I can remeber one of the five fold fools even mentioning it on tape about their tax exemption. How else could they drive around in 50000 dollar mobile homes?

Ive noticed alot of hostility coming from brother Hombre lately. I dont know if its the stress of feeling cornered or some demonic activity going on with him. Maybe somebody should include him in their prayers.

(Message edited by healed on November 13, 2007)

[matt_hatter]

Maybe you think she needs some chivalrous protection from you

Uh...Rachel has never needed any 'protection' from anyone, especially from little religious pudknockers.

Oh hell, I just lost my credibility.See ya. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[duncan]

Healed,
As you stated, I was probably a little different than some at FA, because my dad was a minister. As for pay or taxes, I can tell you that my father never received any pay for his preaching at FA. As such, it never factored into his taxes. I can't speak to what deductions HEF did or did not take as a minister. I do know about ministers and their taxes. They are NOT exempt from paying taxes. They are allowed to take tax deductions on their housing cost and their auto usage as it relates to church use. I also know that ministers are required to pay 100% of their Social Security tax(which you and I only pay half), and this eats up most of the deductions that they take anyway. People who don't know about taxes always think that preachers get some huge tax break that allows them to rake in the money. The reality is totally different.

As for whether HEF's house was paid for, he was a man in his 50s and 60s. I would assume that most people at that age have a house that is paid for. I plan to have my house paid for when I'm in my 40s.

According to government investigators, HEF had $90,000 in the bank when he died. That doesn't seem like a very big "nest egg" for someone in their mid 60s. That's not like FiveFold's hero, Kenneth Copeland, who lives in a 30,000+ square foot mansion and brings in tens of millions of dollars every year.

I'm not defending HEF here, I'm just giving you some facts.

Thanks,
Duncan

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-healed:....Ive noticed alot of hostility coming from brother Hombre lately.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Is that what you're calling it?...gosh, I'd better settle down and listen to your wisdom then.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Duncan: ....I'm not defending HEF here, I'm just giving you some facts.....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Those don't matter ina p*ssing contest, Duncan.

I understand that you are exhibiting far more patient endurance than I, but I wonder when you'll throw in the towel on this guy. IMO, what Un-healed needs is some near death experience that will shake him to his core. I don't think anything short of that, including cajoling, wisdom, facts, concern or friendship is going to fit his needs.

In the mean time, I plan on continuing to call him the spade that he is and has chosen to be.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Phoney-Yom:....he woman suffering from an issue of blood is not a pretext to denounce medical science....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

No, it isn't....anymore than the words of the guy called Jesus who thinks He's the Christ are a pretext to believe in an afterlife.

Of course, as usual, you're right again, PhoneyYom. They are not a pretext to denounce medical science, they are rather an encouragement to seek out their methods first. Isn't that what the writers of the Bible meant? ...and why can't we simply add our own words of aquired human wisdom to what some think is a divine canon?

[duncan]

quote:
Hombre: - I understand that you are exhibiting far more patient endurance than I, but I wonder when you'll throw in the towel on this guy.


Hombre,
This is just my nature. Even though he doesn't think so, I understand his point of view. Unfortunately, Healed is throwing the baby out with the bath, because he is equating Christianity with HEF. He views HEF as bad, and therefore views Christianity as bad. My eventual goal would be for him to forget about HEF and look at Jesus and his words alone.

The Bible didn't tell us to believe what Hobart E. Freeman taught and we will be saved. It said to believe in the Lord Jesus and call upon His name, and you will be saved.

Healed,
You responded to one of my posts a couple of years ago and stated that you did not consider yourself a Christian. That post has haunted me every since then. I could care less whether or not you like HEF or anything he taught. However, I do care that you realize that Jesus loved us before the world was here. He loved us so much, that He was willing to take our punishment and die in our place. This is a gift that is free to those who just accept it. It's not about women wearing dresses or people going to the dentist to get their teeth fixed or someone borrowing money to buy their house. It's about having a personal relationship with the One who died for you and me.

I will continue to pray for you.
Duncan

[healed]

"Unfortunately, Healed is throwing the baby out with the bath, because he is equating Christianity with HEF. He views HEF as bad, and therefore views Christianity as bad".


"The Bible didn't tell us to believe what Hobart E. Freeman taught and we will be saved. It said to believe in the Lord Jesus and call upon His name, and you will be saved"

I find these quotes to be interesting. It seems to me that the Hombres, Duncans etc. are sitting on the fence, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Ive been reading about Bruce Kinsey and his condition. He sought treatment at a hospital for his cancer and now everyone is praising God for his recovery and condeming medical science in their post about him, even though its because of the doctors he recovered. If you are really such a die hard supporter of Freeman, why not sit under Joe Brenemans ministry? The answer is obvious; Joe B. is not Hobart Freeman, he isnt good enough. You admire him from afar because he is continuing with the FA message, but you want to live a "worldly" life at the same time. You must remeber that I lived in a hard core Freeman enviroment, and I remeber what Hobart did and taught. You tell me that I just need to get saved. "Getting saved" wasnt enough back then, why should it be any different now? I get saved and go to a denominational church, free of FA fanatics and lunancy. Why couldnt that of all happened back then? Why did so many have to suffer? So you see, its not just about "getting saved" with you people. There is always some kind of bait and trap. Well Ive escaped from the trap and Im a free animal, with some scars from the trap. Have you ever seen a muskrat or raccoon return to a trap and make it his home? Never.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Un-healed: ...So you see, its not just about "getting saved" with you people. There is always some kind of bait and trap. Well Ive escaped from the trap and Im a free animal, with some scars from the trap. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

So there we have it. A sort of religious psychosis based upon delusional paranoia concerning all things Christian.

He can't get by that.

As long as he equates Christianity with whatever negatives he experienced at FA, either through what he thinks or believes either his relatives or Hobart are responsible for, he will remain bound by his fears.

[duncan]

Healed,
You have lumped me in with people like your relative that holds all Freeman's words to be gospel. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too, because I am not anti-doctor, TV, etc.

I am very happy for Bruce Kinsey, and I am glad that the doctors were able to help him. However, I know that it was ultimately God who was in control.

As I have said before, I have no trick up my sleeve. I am not trying to trick you into following HEF's teachings, because I don't agree with all of them. What I am trying to do is get you to see that the Word of God tells you and me that Jesus died for us.

You have to let go of the FA in your past and move forward. Ask Jesus to truly save you. If you do that and read the Bible for what it says, then God will tell you what he wants you to know. Don't worry about what you were taught at FA, let the Word speak for itself.

I am still praying for you.

Duncan

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Duncan: ....I am very happy for Bruce Kinsey, and I am glad that the doctors were able to help him.....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...so what gossip have I missed out on?

( leaning over the fence, whilst hanging my laundry )

..do tell, brother Duncan......

[duncan]

Hombre,
I have no inside info on Bruce - only what I have read on this and other sites. The last I read was that he had a good report and was doing better.

Duncan

[gene12sis]

I dont know how many of you actually attended Faith assembly or the Glory barn but I assure you that Hobart never cut down others for seeing a Doctor In fact at times he told the congregation to see one if they wasnt sure where their faith stood! they're many things that can hinder us in our faith and walk with God that can cut off the blessings. It's not the knowldge we possess that God is impressed with, but rather the heart! I sat under Hobart for 5yrs starting at the Glory Barn. I will never condemn that message because the foundation of it is true.

[hombre]

Wow, Gene, you're asking for it now to say something like that here. ...better get out your hip boots...you're gonna need 'em.

[healed]

Hobart was nothing but a deciever, used by the devil to kill guilable people who mistook his message of faith for hope. Nothing good came of his message, only death, despair and misery. Those who still endorse, follow or worship him are no different than the citizentry of North Korea who follow their leader even though they starve or die from curable disease. I can remeber people getting sick or hurt bad, and knowing in my heart that they wouldnt recover but we were taught by the great leader Hobart that it wasnt so, if we just beleived those withered limbs would grow out, those crippled would jump, those even dead would walk again. Of course it never happened and you were always worried about those family members that got ill cause you knew they might die, it was a reality. This wasnt some message of real hope, it was BS, and scary. Its scary to even think about those days.

[healed]

I must add that Im glad to see so many here that were led out of that darkness, just like those people from North Korea that run away and look back, not with nostalgia, but wondering how could anyone become so brainwashed by somebody in power. There are the Hombres and others here who wish the great leader Hobart would come back, so they could continue with the regime that he created. They even wish they could become the great leader. I dispise them, for I am no longer controlled by the "great leader" or his message, but I do have scars from it. Those of us who have escaped across the "DMZ" called Faith Assembly and are living in freedom only feel bad for those still under the great leaders control, even though he is dead. What will it take to loosen his grip?

[jrs]

Hello, New to this and was reading a number of the posts. Just found the site.
Would like to ask a question? To state Hobart Freemen was nothing but a deceiver, is that based on his teachings or the results of FA?

I was a member of a church that followed HF’s teaching very closely. 81 to 91
I was able to visit FA a number of times and had a chance to meet Hobart.

JRS

[healed]

"To state Hobart Freemen was nothing but a deceiver, is that based on his teachings or the results of FA?"

Stupid question. Wouldnt it be logical to assume that the results be directly related to the teachings since the people were following Freeman's message?

[hombre]

...and so we see, JRS, one of the kids whose problems in life are all a direct result of Hobart Freeman ( ie: the devil ), and the way that he deals with it. BTW: He ( UN-healed ) has concluded you to be 'stupid' by virtue of your question, which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.

......don't know if you are aware or not, but there is another blog site that is devoted to people like us who have sifted through the FA experience, and are interested in moving ahead, rather than spinning our wheels in the slough of despond for the rest of our lives.

here 'tis:

http://www.overcomersonline.com

[jrs]

"Stupid question. Wouldnt it be logical to assume that the results be directly related to the teachings since the people were following Freeman's message?"

healed.
Stupid, not really. I was just asking to see the grounds for the statement. You said in your reply "Logical to assume", not really. Just because they were attending FA doesn't mean they were completely following the teachings.
One could go to the Dr. for an ailment, and not follow all that the Dr. prescribes and get worst, that doesn't mean the problem is with the Dr.

I was asking to see if the grounds for your statement of, “Hobart Freeman was nothing but a deceiver” had a biblical foundation.

JRS

[hombre]

...sorry to interfere with the convo JRS, but 'Un-healed' is a bitter kid from a FA family, who has never confessed Jesus as the Christ. His interpretations of FA and the Bible, have nothing whatsoever to do with faith in either Jesus as the Christ, or the Bible as the word of God, but merely his observations as an enemy of the gospel.

[jrs]

Thanks hombre,



I’m new to this site and not familiar with all the previous posts. There are a number of them, and to be able to get the full understanding of them at this time would be a major undertaking, not knowing the flavor of the dialogue at that time.



I know personally a number of individuals that were hurt because of the “Faith message” as they see it. Have spent a number of hours talking to and understanding as to why they feel it wasn’t a scriptural message – “as they understand it”. I personally hold that the teaching are based in scripture and are for today. What I have come to the conclusion that most people are of the mindset to look for a leader instead of taking the responsibility themselves. Much the same happened in the church I was part of. The leader, wasn’t aware of this to begin with, and it started to snowball. It was generated form the members themselves, and many followed and even promoted it. The results can be seen in the bondage and legalisms that are introduced. Thus the church and FA appear as a cult in the last year or so of their day.



I just haven’t found where I can say that Hobart Freeman was a deceiver. So I asked the question.



JRS

[hombre]

...yeah...I don't think that anyone thinking with a clear mind is going to be able to call Hobart 'a deceiver' based upon his theology; what his detractors love to cite however is:

1. Hobarts personal tastes and the supposed forced coercion upon the congregation to accept them as Biblical truth,

2. The outcome of those who failed to receive 'divine' healing.

3. Jealousies and envying over the modest prosperity of the ministry, and the lack of such by some in the congregation.

4. The 'loss' of fun time and worldly experiences.

...so oh well.... to each his own...but for me, it has been a life saving message from day one until now.

[jrs]

***it has been a life saving message from day one until now.***
I fully agree.

Many times over the last 16 years I've felt as though I've been in the wilderness. God still remains faithful.
The Christian walk is daily communion and faith. The “Faith Message” is a major part of it.

I still pray for the ones who tried to keep the church together. They suffered many hardships and still harbor bitterness in their hearts. For the longest time I felt as though I was missing it and falling short. God just needed to do his work in his time for me to realize it and to rest in the promises of our LORD Jesus Christ. I feel as thou now I have many of the answers I was seeking even back when still in the church. A balance you might say with the faith message. Not a substitute or undermining, but to balance it with the everyday life and rest in the peace that God is leading me.

I could go on and on.

Thanks for the link. I saw that last spring but didn’t have time to look it over.

Would like to get in contact with others of like mind.

JRS

[healed]

Well let me put it to you this way; The powers of darkness used Hobart as a medium to deceive. He is still a deceiver, no matter what kind of spin you put on it. How? asks the dumb jrs. Well for starters he led many to their deaths, including his own. Hombre would love for you to beleive that I am "un" healed and that I am bitter. Quite the opposite. My handle says Healed, and thats what I am. Hombre and other brainwashed followers of the great leader would love to see me get un-healed..but they have failed in their struggle to do so and it causes them great discomfort. The only ones that are bitter are them, and Im sure they will continue to be for a very long time.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

JRS: ......I feel as thou now I have many of the answers I was seeking even back when still in the church. A balance you might say with the faith message. Not a substitute or undermining, but to balance it with the everyday life and rest in the peace that God is leading me.......Would like to get in contact with others of like mind.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...that seems to be the work that He is doing in all of us: working out in our lives what we learned back then. You'll find a few of us at overcomersonline that haven't thrown out the baby with the bath water....as for this place, it's basically good for nothing....I shouldn't say that though, it has helped me to polarize my views and know even better what I don't want to be by the examples of those who forsook the pathway of faith in favor of the world.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-healed: The powers of darkness used Hobart as a medium to deceive.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Isaiah 5:20.

[fa_kid]

I was one of five kids from one of the more financially blessed families (maybe the most) from the Glory Barn up. I think its safe to say my dad may have had a big part in funding this madman. I share Healed' experience with life difficulties since growing up. I have struggled to get over or get past my complete hate (let me underscore a "perfect hate") for Dr. Hobart Freeman and his destructive idealogy as it turned out. Even so, I am still able to and enjoy communicating with the daughters of one of HEF' daughters (BF), still talk with SH boys whenever they are around, though rare these days. Had good memories of JE and his son who I was friends with. I can say point blank that HEF and that church led to my parents divorce a few years ago. It was always a major sticking point in our family, with many many nights of arguing between my parents over going to that church and otherwise ruining their marriage...and for what? oh yea...that guy that will go down in history as one of the largest, most destructive cult leaders in American History (Jones, Berg, Koresh, Freeman). I am new to this site, playing catchup with other topics etc....but the one thing I know, that was one majorily messed up church from Glory Barn on up. I can tell as others have already mentioned that there is definitely a division amongst us on which side you feel about the whole FA experience and how you've adjusted to date. I can say that speaking from the side I have been on..its been lonely at times, inner-spiritual turmoil throughout, rebellion, college education, early career to now yearning for clarity and closure as I've reached my early 30's. To each our own, but I think we can all agree everyone of us needs lifelong help and counseling. If you deny that, then you are just as messed up and in denial as HEF was. GOD help us all!

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

F'd_upkid: HEF and that church.......that guy that will go down in history as one of the largest, most destructive cult leaders in American History (Jones, Berg, Koresh, Freeman).....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...oooops, I dood a naughty.

....but anyway.......

...might as well add Jesus to that list of yours since He was the originator of Mark 11:24 as well as John 14:12.

...as I have said sooooooooo many times already, you kids don't have a problem with HEF an/or FA and people like me, you have a problem with what the Bible says.....and I can understand that, because it ain't easy, but I don't have a lot of patience with people who attempt to make that book say something that it doesn't say, in order to fit it within the guidelines of their own personal experience....why not just say: I know what the book says, and I:

1. Don't believe it, or
2. Don't understand it.

...why....why.....WHY

.... blame what it says on someone who merely read it aloud to the rest of us?

[healed]

F'd_upkid: HEF and that church.......

Interesting how Hombre likes to mix worldliness and HEF at the same time. Thats some hard language for a die hard Freemanite. Quite the paradox you are as we see into your inner self.

[hombre]

Very observant, Mr. UN-Healed, especially after I pointed it out.

....as though I am not aware of that which I type..... ( where is that rolling eye emoticon when I need it? )

Yes, I suppose that I am quite a paradox. As Paul laments in Romans 7, so are we all.

..and now, I have given you but one more reason to reject Christ by: the fact that one who professes Him, is not perfect.

...thing is....Mr. UN-healed, the difference between you and me is this:

I make no beans about the fact that I am in desperate need of a Savior.....that means for my past sins, for the areas of my life in which I am not yet perfect, and for those which I may commit in the future, whether of a deliberate or negligent character.

You, on the other hand, are a person also in desperate need of a Savior, however, you attempt to shield yourself from the recognition of your character by blaming others for the problems that you perceive in your life.

BTW: you are f'd-up too.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

EXACTLY like the rest of us....quit trying to prove to everyone that you're a better, newer and more improved version of homo sapiens by virtue of your ability to assign guilt to others.

[healed]

Your not adding to your already weak credability as a Freemanite. It seems to me that you choose to do one thing but preach another. Its not a difficult thing for me to understand. Your weak, and you need a Freeman to guide you, but he has passed and there is nobody to fill his shoes. So your lost. Some of you go to the doctor, but praise Freeman and his teachings. I can only think of one word to describe you: Hypocrite. So many people died under the teachings of the five fold fools, but now, they themselves are visiting hospitals when they get ill. What am I supposed to think of you Hombre? Should I be in awe of your message? Oh no, of course not. I should accept you with all of your shortcomings. Too late for that Hombre, that wasnt part of the FA deal. Those with shortcomings were beat (kids) or excommunicated (adults). Now those who were in charge are finding themselves with so many shortcomings, but still longing for Freeman. I dont know what it will take, but I can only pray that you someday manage to get your head out of your azz, Hombre.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-healed: ....Your weak.....<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...you spelled 'your' wrong.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

..what you're using is the possessive form of the pronoun 'you', instead of the abbreviated form of the verb and pronoun 'you are', which would be 'you're', as correctly used in this sentence.

...but anyway, I digress with issues from 3rd grade English.

You're beating a dead horse again, Un.

You will search my posts in vain to find me denouncing anyone who has used medical science for healing. Again, for possibly the 1,000th time: The Bible declares what it declares. It is our responsibility to wrestle with that. Hobart merely read what it plainly says. You, like the rest of us, have a problem with the Bible, not with the man Hobart Freeman or anyone else who reads the words contained within the book. You have to decide for yourself, whether it is Gods' word, or just a collection of amusing stories and fables. For people like you, who were raised by people who believe that the Bible is the Word of God, you now have the freedom to choose for yourself...and I believe that you have chosen. You choose to reject certain things in the Bible, and pretend to acknowledge others. Your hope lies in the wisdom of men, and in what you perceive to be the right thing for your own life. Good luck with that...but eventually you'll end up at the end of your life, and your humanist philosophies won't save you from the grave. In that day, call upon the name of Jesus, and perhaps, if He wills, He will hear.

[healed]

"You will search my posts in vain to find me denouncing anyone who has used medical science for healing"

I see, but what about your idol, Mr. Freeman? Not only did he denounce, he disfellowshipped those who didnt do as he taught, and you endorse this man. Why are you beating a dead horse?

"Hobart merely read what it plainly says. You, like the rest of us, have a problem with the Bible, not with the man Hobart Freeman or anyone else who reads the words contained within the book"

Strange, because out of all the people reading what the bible says, as you put it, Hobart was the only one that saw things differently. I dont have any problem with the bible, I just dont see the need to become a fanatic. Just like the radical muslims, they will say the same thing about the koran in order to justify their actions.


"Your hope lies in the wisdom of men"

Your full of strange words and thoughts, everything is a paradox, a contridiction. The people who attended FA put their hope in the wisdom of Freeman, in what what he taught, but it got them nowhere, and many died. My hope doesnt lie in the wisdom of any man. Name one.

"and your humanist philosophies won't save you from the grave. In that day, call upon the name of Jesus, and perhaps, if He wills, He will hear."

Did Freemans beliefs save him from the grave? Your product stinks Hombre. Its a hard sell, even to the naive. When are you going to give it up?

[hombre]

... interestingly enough, you are quite the contradiction yourself, Un.

One one hand, you tell us that you have no problem with the Bible.

...on the other, you tell me that 'my product stinks'.

What is my product , Un?

I contend that 'my product' is exactly that which is contained within the Bible, which, unfortunately is that which you love to stumble over, namely, things like Mark 11:24, whose authorship is attributed to Jesus Christ, NOT Hobart E. Freeman.

You do indeed have a problem with the Bible, Un.

...the fact is, you're ( correct usage here ) simply afraid to admit it.

...looks like the fear of the Lord and the beginning of wisdom to me.

..note that I said the beginning of wisdom.

..it's time to take out your pencil and paper, and start listening to your elders, young-Un.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[healed]

Sure, lets take notes, just like back in the day. Lets write down every word Freeman spoke, like it was spoken by God himself. Then lets adhere to it, and loose our teeth, our rights to drive because without our glasses, we are unable to pass the DMV test, lets get out of debt by being a slave to somebody else forever and renting our houses from a landlord or living in a trailer, lets work in construction because going to college is not of God and we cant find any other work that is sanctioned by Freeman, lets lay in angony because we cant go to the doctor, etc, etc. As you can see, I have taken some notes in my day; that is I have taken note of the B.S. caused by what Freeman spewed. I have also taken note of the fact that you, my so called elder, are living in sin, according to the word of Freeman. You, like so many other "elders" from FA are a joke to me. There will be no note taking by me about your wisdom, but my notebook is getting full about your stupidity.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UNhealed:.....There will be no note taking by me about your wisdom, but my notebook is getting full about your stupidity. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Yes, indeed, for the things of God ARE foolishness to the world.

Like Moses who chose a life apart from temporal pleasures, and Abraham who journeyed to and lived in a foreign land because their invisible friend told them to. It wasn't easy for Moses, nor for Abraham, living in the desert, nor was it for Paul, shipwrecked 3 times, beat and imprisoned, etc., etc., etc....all because they were too stupid and stubborn to listen to REAL peoples' wisdom. People like yourself, Un..........Unbelievers.

There is no point in listing all the things God has done for me, because it would fall on deaf ears with you anyway, but for those out there who still believe, God is still working out His Mark 11:24 promise to me in several areas of my life, being fulfilled before my eyes in the strangest of ways, that I could not have even begun to imagine.

..and that is all praise and glory to Him, forever and ever, Amen.

...because whether YOU want to believe it or not, Un, Mark 11:24, and the other s-e-v-e-n.......t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d......p-l-u-s promises were made BY GOD, and HE upholds HIS word, whether those who have NO faith like YOURSELF believe it or not.

...and now, if you'd like, you may return to your cursing and bitterness, and accusations about whether or not I am living the way that you think I should.

...and oh yes.....one of the promises is that once you accept Him, HE will never forsake you, which I am thankful for, because without him, I would be just like you.....lost and without hope in a very unforgiving world.

...the clock is ticking for you Un...time to bend your knees to Jesus.

[healed]

"and the other s-e-v-e-n.......t-h-o-u-s-a-n-d......p-l-u-s promises were made BY GOD, and HE upholds HIS word, whether those who have NO faith like YOURSELF believe it or not."

Interesting. So why are so many of you going to the doctor these days?

[hombre]

....that is a very good question, Un.

I'm glad you asked it.

There are probably about a million reasons why, but IMO, they really boil down to the elements of faith and purity.

I think, and I reiterate, I think that in order for someone to walk in the sort of faith that Jesus Christ promises, that it requires a level of commitment that goes beyond what most if not all are willing to comply with.

God meets my needs, but I am not wealthy in the same sense as Bill Gates. God has healed me, and many others on many occasions. There was even a guy in my wifes' church who was healed of diagnosed AIDS, and it was confirmed by the doctors; however, I don't take that for granted, nor do I have a formula for it. There IS the issue of Gods' will and whether or not He is going to honor His word to those who are less than perfect examples of what He stands for....and there are those issues for which we have no explanation at all....after all, God IS God.

...even Jesus said on the cross: ' my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'

...and so, Un, I have no judgement against those whose faith is not pure enough, nor against those whose lives aren't either...because I haven't reached those levels yet either..

..what I am against Un, is the watering down of the standard that the Bible holds before us, through explaining away what is as plain as the nose on your face, with twisted religious interpretations.

We either believe it, or we don't.

...and if we're smart enough to recognize whether or not we have what it takes to be healed, delivered, etc., and are willing to sacrifice whatever for that assurance that is in Gods' word, then we will take whatever appropriate action is necessary.

For some, that may mean going to deaths door, if that is necessary to them.

For others, they will choose to use medicine, etc., and perhaps live another day to wrestle with their lives.

...but the bottom line, Un, is this:

..the issue of 'divine healing' and its' promise have been around a whole lot longer than Hobart was, and that message has permeated almost the entire world for centuries.

You can continue to blame Hobart until eternity sets in for you, but that will never change what is written in the Bible.

[healed]

Sounds like a whole lot of B.S. to me. I know Hobart wouldnt of endorsed the crap you posted above. I think they call it backsliding. Backsliders were shown the door at FA. There is nobody to show you the door these days so you do as you please because big brother Freeman is gone. Like I said before, your not fooling anybody.

[hombre]

....I have news for you, Un.

Hobart most definitely did say the exact things that I said in my last post.

Your problem also involves a lack of research and a completely blind adherence to what YOU THINK HEF said and what YOU THINK FA stood for.

..if anyone is totally brainwashed and dogmatic in their own conceit and self-deceit....it is definitely YOU.

[jrs]

This is a question I need to ask and I hope it doesn’t come across as being “stupid”.
First, I understand the arguments here and the reasoning behind them.

In the beginning of this thread johiyom started out with “Was FA a cult? It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman.”

I’m not looking the further debate. I think the views and understandings are fairly plain.


My question is - Where do we find truth? What do we look for? How do we judge and discern for ourselves?

JRS

[healed]

"Where do we find truth? What do we look for? How do we judge and discern for ourselves?"

You sound like a receipe for disaster. Your not able to think for yourself? Hombre seems to have alot of "truths" Why dont you start by looking towards him. Perhaps you and Hombre could start another FA.

[hombre]

...and now, fighting for the right to.....well.......fight........in this corner: UN-HEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAALED!

[jrs]

“You sound like a receipe for disaster. Your not able to think for yourself? Hombre seems to have alot of "truths" Why dont you start by looking towards him. Perhaps you and Hombre could start another FA.”



“You sound like a recipe for disaster.” Well Healed – it is one thing to take and accuse because of preconceived notions and bitterness – that I might add you are not short on – and it’s another thing to look at the FACTS – as this site is named.

“Your not able to think for yourself?” That’s exactly why I pose the question. Looking for the facts in an argument. I’m not questioning the things that johiyom pointed out to begin this thread.

“In the beginning of this thread johiyom started out with “Was FA a cult? It didn't start that way but eventually cult tendencies developed at FA centered around the opinions of Freeman.””

Your bitterness and hatred you have are clearly revealed in the posts that have proceeded. Even in my unregenerate days I knew the results of such bitterness and hatred in ones life. Also is the same as what you are proving out here. You do nothing but to tear apart something and at the same time will not have a clue as to what to offer in its place. You say to start looking towards hombre – well at least he is offering something. I at least get the perception that he is defending what Hobart taught when he started out and not necessarily the later years of Hobart’s life. Hobart was renowned in seminaries and his writing were required reading in classes.

Following a man – let’s not go there. Unless you somehow appeared on a deserted island and now have found your way to the mainland, YOU have followed other MEN in your life and they all have influenced you in one way or the other. But of course this would take an honest person to really acknowledge it.

You post your ideas and thoughts in a location called FACTNET – OK – It’s the facts I am waiting to here from you. Not your mystical opinions that you have based on a few cases in which I do not argue over. It is the facts I seek and the truth in a matter that will prevail. Or are you just an individual who will not look past and learn from a situation, oh yes – just sweep it all under a rug. Ignore it and it will go away and now you have found that this will not go away so you have taken it on yourself to bash it in an attempt to tear it down.

Start another FA, I don’t think so. One cannot deny in all honesty that there was something special in the early days at FA that we will possibly never see again.

[healed]

"One cannot deny in all honesty that there was something special in the early days at FA that we will possibly never see again."

Well Im one of those people who hopes we never see the likes of FA again. FA should be an example that we point to when we are talking about cults and people going off the deep end. I dont have any good memories of it.

[hombre]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

UN-healed: Well Im one of those people who hopes we never see the likes of FA again. FA should be an example that we point to when we are talking about cults and people going off the deep end. I dont have any good memories of it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

...that's because, according to you, you come from a long line of dunderheads, who were the type of legalists that ruined FA....and so, in equating your personal experience with HEFs theology ( which is NOT HEFs theology, but rather literal Bible ), you demonize not only FA and HEF, but Christendom and the Bible in general.

...not to worry though...there was a guy like you, who was out to kill Christians and destroy the church when God called him...his name was Paul, and he wrote half of the New Testament.

I'm looking forward to your conversion experience, Un.

[healed]

No, your looking forward to me reverting not converting. Lets not mix things up here. Hobart was good at doing that, and since your his disciple, I must always be on guard as to your intentions. I think that my conversion is taking place now. The first step was to cleanse my mind of all things Hobart. Liberation soon followed. Whats to follow after that is up to God and myself, without your interference.

[duncan]

Healed,
Just like I said back in November, I just want you to know that I am still praying for you. Also, I still think you should forget about HEF and what he taught. It doesn't matter what he said, what Hombre says or what I say to you. Just pick a gospel, like the gospel of John, and read a little every night. God will show you what he wants you to know.

I will keep praying for you.
Duncan