MaranathaMSIEN the saga continues pt 8 [Archive]

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

08-19-2005, 11:59 AM

Thanks Speak,
my walk had four dogs, two ducks and an owl by the full moon this morning I feel like a suburban Assisi.

Since we take excursions through our past I remember some of our first MLTS's in Paducah had speakers like DeVern Fromke who wrote "Ultimate Intention" and "Unto Full Stature." His books and demeanor unfortunately didn't carry as much weight as they should have in retrospect. I also remember reading Watchman Nee's books and trying to get my ninteen year-old brain around the alabaster box of self and never really quite getting it.

Speaking of books...Steve McVey has a great ministry and books to match, which a pastor friend of mine turned me onto. "Grace Amazing" and "Grace Walk" are two books I just finished which deal with the issues of legalism, priesthood, and the transition from legalism into grace. He was a successful pastor who found himself on his study floor in tears at an end of himself, his years of tried and true rules hadn't worked. He also quotes from Plato's Republic (I chuckled in the bibliography it was the Cliff notes Plato's Republic...still it's Plato) He used the illustration of prisoners in a cave seeing only the wall before them. In using this vocabulary I am not "Cro-Magnoning" EN, ok? Anyway, firelit shadows dance before their eyes on the wall cast by the occasional traveler. Over time some of the prisoners chains are released, fearfully they turn and glimpse the fire. Having only shadows of goings on around them it's terrifying to behold fire, direct light. As they progress through their fears they eventually are lead out into the light of day.

Our patience is short sometimes(Let's be honest-My patience is short, ask my family), and the redemptive path takes time. A part of that redemptive path is through places we'd rather not go frankly. Signing divorce papers after my first marriage failed comes to mind. It failed because I married someone I shold not have in an attempt at appeasement to a God who needed no appeasing. Others have more pointed instances of these meanderings and yet a thread that runs true is the faithfulness of Jesus. I assumed I would be a part of Maranatha for my lifetime, gain ascendancy and do my thang in some nice Christian capacity. I remember being granted a meeting with Fred Mound a V.P. at Universal Studios with a corner office overlooking the lot and telling him in response to a question about my career goals "Ah, I'd like to run a place like this someday." There aren't enough D's in "Duh" or O's in "Stoopid". My cocky little young self got to learn the hard way, which Jesus is more than willing to let me do. So, if we can spare anyone the heartache and yet not diminish the value of the life lessons I hope we can-hear me please not being glib it is our hope.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 19, 2005)

lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)

08-19-2005, 03:20 PM

As an example of what continues to happen in EN on a regular basis, I offer this case study.

A very good friend of mine, who is one of the most talented and IQ intelligent people I know (one of the others, I have discovered, is in here), has been in FTM with MSI/EN for nearly ten years. In that time he has trotted the globe, faithfully teaching, leading and doing whatever was asked of him. He was with one international church and became the defacto pastor while the named pastor traveled to teach. The pastor in name was receiving a salary from the church. That continued while he was on the road. He also enjoyed the financial fruits of his ministry via offerings and honoraria from the various churches he visited. My friend, meanwhile, was supporting his family on his modest support money, which he worked very hard to assemble. No offer of supplementing his support was ever made, though he was doing the work of the pastor. He's not bitter. I'm a bit ticked, though.

Recently, he and his family moved to another MSI/EN town on invitation to do other work for the international ministry component of EN. In this location wealth abounds, at least toward the central leaders. My friend and his family were asked to "assist a paid staffer" without any compensation. My understanding is that the latter portion of the deal was not fully revealed until he arrived.

Trust me on this one thing if nothing else. Well, actually it's two things:

1. These guys, whether they realize it or not, have a glaring double standard when it comes to their value and that of others. This is clearly seen in the way the compensate (or don't) the lower tier ministers.

2. Again, possibly without malice, these guys (and I think this is something Rice may have unfortunately inherited from Bob W.) are MASTERS of the bait-and-switch. MASTERS.

It goes sumpin' like this: "Hey, Champ. [Insert name here and feel a big sideways hug!] It's so great to see you! You look great, man! Here's what I'm thinkin' and I beleive this is what the Lord wants. Let's have you come down/over/up here, Champ, and work with our [fill in the blank] ministry initiative! It'll be awesome, man. I'd personally love to have you with us on this [fill in the blank] move of God. Friend, we'll TAKE CARE OF YOU...WE'LL WORK OUT THE DETAILS...your wife will love being with these ladies. It'll be powerful. [Insert stuff like 'destiny'...'team'...'hang out'...'do you golf'.] You'll just love Pastor [fill in the blank]! Pray about it and let's make it happen..."

Ugh. Am I right or am I right?

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

08-19-2005, 06:58 PM

Yeah LKB,
I've been "Champed" a few times. I asked them to stop to calling me that too close to Chimp for my comfort. The act of using a term of familiarity such as Champ is a means of reinforcing their influence for everyone who has contact with them. To resist (is futile) makes you suspect particularly to anyone standing around and is a constant reminder of who is in charge. I think your perception and illustration are dead on. To not use people's name when addressing them is a method of coercion-to be a Rice, a Phil or whoever in a sea of "Champs" is egocentrism ad infinitum. Curiously after Maranatha I joined Church on the Way for a brief time. At the new members class dinner Jack Hayford was there, made a point of using your name and identifying with you on some point. I realize that Jack Hayford doesn't know everybody by name at the Van Nuys church, but you were made to feel as though you mattered there.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 19, 2005)

james_john_doe (james_john_doe)

08-19-2005, 07:33 PM

I've seen the usage of "champ" when people forgot your name.

What do you guys think about this article?http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

What is the general consensus on demons?
I've seen ep8 of this program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran_vs_God

ontheroad (ontheroad)

08-19-2005, 07:43 PM

JJD -
The descripitons in your first article actually fits my former pastor almost to a T. I've researched stuff on psychopaths and narcissists before, and it is interesting (and a bit alarming) the similarities between their characteristics and my former pastor. (Sad, but true.)

Oh, and he used the word "champ"...that is just an aside, not a correlation to the article.

I'll have to read the second artile you posted when I have a bit more time.

annelewis (annelewis)

08-19-2005, 10:34 PM

JJD - I've seen the article on sociopaths and narcissists before. Once I accepted the idea that there are people who, for whatever reason, are willing to screw you over and not blink an eye, life made a lot more sense. Happily the worst of these people are few and far between.

And regarding the exorcism, well, I know that Jesus is above all rulers in heavenly places. And I have seen the power of His name. I haven't seen the episode in question and I don't know that I care to.

I live in rattlesnake country. I have seen rattlesnakes but had never known anyone to be bit by one until last summer when a man in our church unwittingly got nabbed in the lower leg. (And no, we arn't snake handlers, he was out hiking) His leg turned black from the sole of his foot up to well above the hem of his shorts. How far up, I don't know for obvious reasons. It took him most of the rest of the summer to first get the swelling down, then for the black to go away and then to get strength back in his leg.

I knew before he got bit that a rattlesnake bite was a bad deal and seeing his leg didn't change my mind any. And I don't think seeing the exorcism tape would change my mind on anything either.

Lk The champ thing never was used much in DC when I was there. When I did hear it, I always reminded of Ricky Schroder yelling "Champ!Champ!" in a high squeaky voice to a dying Jon Voight in the 1979 film (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078950/) so it didn't have good connotations.

Regarding the pay disparity between top leaders and the worker bees, one of the big Biblical no-no's is to deny a person their livlihood. I know that there are people in EN who struggle to live on support with no health insurance, no retirement and no extra money to pay for these things out of their own pocket. The best some of these folks will have to look forward to is Social Security and Medicaid.

Does anyone else remember when FT staff were "encouraged" to opt out of paying Social Security taxes. At the time, you were allowed to do it based on religious conviction, I believe. Insane.

(Message edited by annelewis on August 19, 2005)

lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)

08-19-2005, 11:17 PM

Oh, yes. It was specifically touted as a way to increase your take-home while simultaneously justifying lower salaries for the little guys...

aletheia (aletheia)

08-19-2005, 11:55 PM

JJD -
Thanks for suggesting Alan Deutschman's article "Is Your Boss a Psychopath?" - a very interesting read indeed.

We would be stepping onto thin ice to label any EN leader a...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif "psychopath," though similarities are there. Even with "servant leadership" being taught from EN pulpits, some senior pastors manifest qualities of what Deutschman describes as "corporate (subcriminal) psychopaths."

This one caught my eye - Deutschman mentions that psychopaths "crave constant stimulation" and are "easily bored." Senior pastors, fearing a spiritual midlife crisis, often hype themselves into running to "catch the next wave" of the Spirit, by chasing after the latest-greatest new revelation/prophecy. Sadly to say, they are bored with the glorious, simple gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, IMHO.

And what Deutschman wrote about NARCISSISM!

. "The narcissistic CEO [is] a grandiose egotist who is ON A MISSION TO HELP HUMANITY...though he's often INSENSITIVE TO THE REAL PEOPLE AROUND HIM."

. "Narcissists are VISIONARIES WHO ATTRACT HORDES OF FOLLOWERS, WHICH CAN MAKE THEM EXCEL AS INNOVATORS, BUT THEY'RE POOR LISTENERS AND THEY CAN BE AWFULLY TOUCHY ABOUT CRITICISM. THESE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE MUCH EMPATHY."

. "THEY SEE OTHER PEOPLE AS A MEANS TOWARD THEIR ENDS. BUT THEY DO HAVE A SENSE OF CHANGING THE WORLD -- IN THEIR EYES, IMPROVING THE WORLD."

. "THEY BUILD THEIR OWN VIEW OF WHAT THE WORLD SHOULD BE AND GET OTHERS RECRUITED TO THEIR VISION."

Humm...

(Message edited by aletheia on August 20, 2005)

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-20-2005, 12:20 AM

Does anyone else remember when FT staff were "encouraged" to opt out of paying Social Security taxes.

lkbk and/or annelewis... is that legal?

coppertree (coppertree)

08-20-2005, 12:40 AM

hi Ul-I remember when this went through the whole ministry. It was done to stop the fellowship from having to paying 7 1/2 % to the govt. That is why the pressure was put on us to withdraw from soc.tax system.}

annelewis (annelewis)

08-20-2005, 01:15 AM

Ul Members of a religious group can be exempt from Social Security according to these rules (http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=514&p_created=976735937&p_sid= VwVTPqNh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX 2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTImcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXR zPTAmcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzL nNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PXJlbGl naW91cw**&p_li=&p_topview=1). I don't know what the requirements were at the time this practice was adopted through the ministry, but staff of MSI/EN could not do so now since:
1. MSI/EN has not been continuously in existence since December 31, 1950
2. MSI/EN does not make reasonable provision for its dependent members.

mm_05 (mm_05)

08-20-2005, 01:26 AM

Hi all -

I am new here, so forgive me if this is off-topic. Literally stumbled accross this site and was SHOCKED to discover that MSI/ EN was listed here. I am currently a member of an MSI / EN church that has recently been through some tremendous turmoil. I am uncomfortable posting here, and wish to remain anonymous. I am considering leaving after a number of years as a member. I have been the recipient of MANY of the types of behaviors listed here, from the "courting" hangups to deliverance sessions. I do see my particular church making a CONCERTED effort to change, and things are certainly not nearly as leagalistic and heavy-handed as they have been. Some aspects of the legalism are no longer even spoken of. The pastor of my church seems to have taken a step away from most of that. My concern is that the apostolic leaders have not changed, and that I am just looking at an old house with a new coat of paint. I do believe my pastor loves God, and he is one of the better teachers I have run accross at MSI/ EN, but I still yearn for more STUDY OF THE WORD in its purest form, if that makes sense. I guess I'm trying to say that I am comforted simply by the fact that you (as a group) are here. Thank you.

lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)

08-20-2005, 01:27 AM

...can anyone help me learn how to edit/delete my previous posts? i need to nip/tuck a smidgy (or more). tanks.

coppertree (coppertree)

08-20-2005, 01:37 AM

Hi mm_50, Welcome and thank you. I found this site not too long ago,also. I hope you find more comfort and healing. Thank you for your post.

mm_05 (mm_05)

08-20-2005, 02:02 AM

Appreciate that, coppertree. I have enjoyed reading your posts. While not in a leadership role myself with MSI/ EN, I had experience with a lot of the heavy hitters within MSI/ EN and saw a lot of things I am stil trying to deal with. Again, there are some very godly, merciful people in my local church. However, I have become uncomfortable to the point of leaving with the way the national leadership structure has dealt with blatant abuses within the church, and am losing confidence that they know what true repentace is and should be.

lc_20 (lc_20)

08-20-2005, 02:19 AM

mm_05,

Welcome. I am sorry you have experienced abuses and that you are losing confidence in your leadership. As you can see, there are many people here who have traveled that path before you. It is eye-opening to see that you are not alone in your discernment. My advice is to take your time with your decisions so you have no regrets... but guard your heart with diligence during the process. If you have any questions or fears that you need to talk out. Drop a note. God bless.

annelewis (annelewis)

08-20-2005, 03:52 AM

mm - welcome. I pray discernment and peace for you as you resolve these issues in your life.

Some red flags to watch for as you work through this are fear, anxiety, confusion and resentment. Note when you start feeling them and what initiated them.

Pay attention to what you really feel. One of the things that often happens is we stuff our feelings in the name of "overcoming" them. Be honest with yourself and with God.

If you feel like you are rationalizing or making excuses, pay attention to that too. What are you trying to explain?

I am not nor was not part of MSI/EN but I was part of Maranatha before it disbanded. I knew many people who truly loved God who were part of that movement. The fact they are good people doesn't negate the fact that they were part of a bad movement, as was I. If your pastor feels like he needs to make changes from within, blessings to him. But don't stay with him unless that's what you feel like you should do, too.

Don't settle for the "no church is perfect" line. We all have seasons of discontent and discipline where church is uncomfortable nor to our liking, but if something feels off, it isn't all your fault.

You've received some good advice from those who've walked this path more recently than I. And really, don't worry about making a wrong decision. I have learned that if I am wrong, God is more than able to let me know.

(Message edited by annelewis on August 19, 2005)

coppertree (coppertree)

08-20-2005, 05:06 AM

Hi mm_05 Thank you for your response. What you are seeing is a hard thing to know; that there are many Godly sincere believers in this ministry. this is a hard thing to to know; I think that many do not know what is happening on deep level in the church and with doctrine. Some things are not open to the general church; somethings are hidden. I think that there comes a point where when one's eyes are opened; the choice is to give in and then violates one's conscience. When He gives you eyes to see and ears to hear; this is a wonderous thing. And you find another difficult thing; that not all people , even Godly ones will not hear and see. Sometimes all things are not known by others. It is up to God to revel a matter; and this is a wonderous thing also. He is faithful, He has began a good work in you and will finish it. He is the good shephard, He will show you the way, and how to do what He wants you to do. There are many here praying for, even from all over the world.}

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

08-20-2005, 08:38 AM

My senior pastor used to playfully walk past and punch my shoulder with a "Hey, Champ". One day I playfully and forcefully punched his shoulder back. It was the last time he did that to me. I must admit wanting to run around him in circles whooping my head off, but the celebration was a silent and smug one. Glad he got out of the habit. Who started the "champ" thing?

John, my best walk was the day I walked out of my last church service. It was a quiet slip out of the building. No rabbits at my feet and no bluebirds on my shoulder. By that time it felt like they had cut my gonads off so the monk analogy fitted me that day somewhat.

emmaean (emmaean)

08-20-2005, 12:40 PM

mm_05-
God bless you on your quest for truth and answers. There is already good advice here to you from the others.

Just a couple of more things: The cure, the only cure, for what is wrong in the churches is repentance by everyone, including the leadership, all the way to the top. Modification is constantly being heralded as the answer to all the inevitable issues that keep coming up. This just drywalls over the Leprosy in the walls of the house (Leviticus 14:35-57) and it fools many outsiders and insiders that "now all is well". Meanwhile, the leaders are strengthened in their resolve never to truly change, by having gotten by with it one more time.

This, most likely, is what will happen regarding that lawsuit in Nashville - see a separate thread.

mm, you can't save the whole group, even those near and dear to you, whom you know love Jesus with all their heart. They have to have a revelation of their own from Him. Trying to convince them of anything now will be like trying to break a bird's egg or a coccoon open before the bird/butterfly is ready. You may damage them deeply and re-confuse yourself in the process.

In other words, don't base your decision on having company or not. When my church went through upheaval, in one day EVERYONE, BUT ME and maybe two others were ready to leave "en mass". The next thing I knew, the whole kit and kaboodle had decided NOT to leave, and only me and three others were left uncovered by the wet black blanket of deception.

One more thing. I want you to understand that, almost inevitably, what you were "delivered of" in any deliverance sessions through which you went, will be vomited back out upon you now to convince you that your decision is wrong. This even goes for "deliverance" that occurred as long ago as your day one in the ministry. Then, when you leave, that same confidential deliverance information will be spread far and wide to anyone who knows and respects you, and it will be used to convince them how screwed up you always were, and therefore were never to be trusted in the first place. Just brace yourself. But remember, freedom isn't free. But freedom is well worth every penny, and more.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-20-2005, 11:58 PM

Amen, coppertree, emmaean, and all...

Welcome to you, mm_05. I made the same decision a little over a year ago now, for similar reasons as you. Like you and others here, I believe that the vast majority in this movement are sincere Christians who love the Lord. I believe this is true of most pastors in the movement. However, I had/have serious issues with the top US leadership and with what they at heart truly believe and practice (if one could ever really know for sure...). I have seen lack of repentance for things that sorely need repentance. Adjustment is not repentance. Neither is containment. I would have been violating my conscience to stay, for a number of different reasons. My leaving was difficult and heartwrenching, especially since I made a sincere effort to address these issues first in a respectful, loving Biblical way, but I do not regret it for a moment. My prayers go out to you.

blessings,
ulyankee

mm_05 (mm_05)

08-21-2005, 02:36 AM

All - thank you so very much for your encouraging words and advice. This process will not be easy, but I am truly thankful for your support and prayers. May the Lord bless and keep each of you in your daily walk with Him.

mm

lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)

08-21-2005, 08:21 PM

i was sitting in the service this morning and couldn't get the amblings of this place out of my head. i tried to track down the essence of what i feel about this matter and seem to have made some progress. here's what i think and feel.

in part due to the apparent clarity of message, sense of purpose and youthful exuberance, organizations like maranatha and, to whatever degree they repeat their errors, MSI/EN attract many broken people looking for order, direction, healing, meaning and belonging. mind you, not all of these people look broken outwardly and, in fact, not all of them are so broken. in my view, many are. and, i think, there is the HUGE problem when we mix their great need with a group of people under the leadership of men who MAY very well have a strong tendancy toward control, suggestive manipulation, motivation through guilt/shame and threats of Holy retribution and a love for the 'finer things in life' shall we say. each side of the equation stands in a literal, spiritual, emotional and psychological sea of allure that draws them out and into the dangerous darkness of their weakness and pattern behavior.

The broken tend to give too much of themselves too freely and without question, thinking this is the path to belonging, the door to their divine "destiny," the way to find favor with a God they have longed to touch, a system within which they can be loved, affirmed and approved through their leaders, and on and on and on.

For the system and its leaders, especially if both were weaned on a diet of legalism, authoritarianism, manipulation, control, abuse (of various types), elitism, self-justifying rationalization and gadfly theology, the rush into the mirky water is nearly too powerful to avoid. Also, and this is my opinion, it is hard to break old behavior modeled during one's formative period and to rid one's heart/head of ideas and philosophies that were interwoven with best intentions and solid biblical motivations. that is the case UNLESS those things have summarily been repented of in an open and public way.

For the system and its proponents, now infected with a deep worm virus, the tendancy to 'think' the motives are pure and the ends able to justify the means employed is a factory installed component. Seeing those needing Jesus, longing for a place and a purpose, and those hurting from previous abuses, the system/pattern/model says, "I know we can help them...this will be wonderful for them. I know they need this and I know how to get them there, even if it hurts them a little in the process. Growth is pain, life is sacrifice, success in any arena is tough. assuming no malice, it's easy to see why some would continue to put people on a road that is familiar to them. afterall, it got them where they are and their not so badly damaged. well, that may be debatable, but not by me. not right now.

so, we have these powerful forces drawing a group of people with great longings (sometimes rooted in hurt and abuse) toward people (and remnants of a system) with trace elements, maybe more, of control, demagoguery, elitism, the 'elastication' of truth and experience, and theological and relational unsteadiness. this is a recipe for more hurt, pain, disillusionment and brokenness.

in this situation, the potential for exerting undue influence over the needy and the newcomer is high, even if the motives are pure. if the motives are not so pure and added to the mix are scripturally justified greed, the pursuit of wealth, insecurity parading as self-engrandizement, an a belief the wordly wealth signifies spiritual blessing, favor and faith, well then we have a very diabolical mess on our hands.

on the one hand, we have undue influence be exerted to help others "be all they can be in the army of God," let's say. the proponents of the system and methods believe in them and, in particular, the ends. in this scenario we still have people getting hurt, etc., but one would think repentance would flow quickly at even the slightest hint of truth in the allegations made by members and former members over a period of years. i don't know if that has happened. also, the ends being sought may not be of a biblical nature and that is regretable for all involved. then again, the ends may be. i won't hazard a comment.

on the other hand, we have people being steered in directions and 'handled' in ways clearly detrimental to their individual condition (physical, emotional, financial, spiritual, psychological) in life. undue influence implies that someone in authority takes advantage of the perception of those 'under' him/her to ends that serve the one in authority and simultaneouly damage the underling. leaders are lifted up, protected, idolized, padded, served and separated from the less gifted and graced at the expense of those they were meant to humbly serve and give their lives for.

which scenario are we looking at here? perhaps it must be taken on a case-by-case basis? i don't know. i do know that Jesus wanted us to "let the little children come to him," and by that i don't think he was exclusively talking about children in terms of years spent on the earth. i think he was referring to the innocent, the needy, the vulnerable...i also seem to remember something about a "millstone" necklace for any who make one of "these little ones stumble." now how did that go again?

i think extra care must be given by those in leadership throughout the Church to prioritize one thing for those who come to us hurting and chewed up by the world and other humans. one thing and one alone (besides seeing that their needs are met if they have them) needs to be our focus. that one thing is to "take them to Jesus." and teach them how to get there on their own, again and again and again. yes or no?

i'm done.

annelewis (annelewis)

08-23-2005, 02:43 AM

Lk, that's some intense processing you are doing.

I've occasionally thought about the leadership question over the years but I can't say I have any brilliant insights. I've come to the following conclusions but haven't synthesized them into any sort of meaningful whole.

1. We wrestle not against flesh and blood.
2. Nothing excuses the way some leaders treated others but there is plenty to explain it.
3. Leaders, whether they deserve it or not, take it on the chin when their ties to the authoratarian system break. At the very least, they are stripped of their livlihood, position and occassionally, their homes. Relationships of many years standing are completely and irrevocably ended. Often, their reputations are besmirched, their character questioned and their failings publicized.

(Message edited by annelewis on August 22, 2005)

(Message edited by annelewis on August 23, 2005)

13yearswasted (13yearswasted)

08-24-2005, 08:06 AM

We had the champ thing going. I think it was more from Rice Brooks when he would visit. The college guys really grabbed on to it...I still have a few old friend who moved away who call from time to time calling me, a female, "champ"

oh the Social security thing...that is exactly why our church didnt change out of its maranatha name until 2001, and then only did a dba. Changing our name would effect our exemption. The pastor had no SS or medicare taken out...he just got paid his gross income and claimed to make the proper deductions etc. when tax time came (yeah right). When I got paid, because we had that exemption filed, and I was not clergy I had to pay out of pocket for Social security for myself and for the churches part.

annelewis (annelewis)

08-24-2005, 01:58 PM

13 (or ontheroad), is the church still a going concern?

ontheroad (ontheroad)

08-24-2005, 05:03 PM

Hi Anne,

The church which 13yearswasted and I used to attend was officially dissolved late last summer. After that, a few people were still holding weekly meetings with the pastor in someone's home, but I think that has now stopped too. I hope that is finally the end of him leading a group of any kind. However, he has always maintained that he will never give up his "calling" to preach, no matter what, and apparently even insisted such not too long ago. I also know he still keeps up with some people with whom he was meeting in the home setting. So I'm not convinced that he won't try to start something up again someday. Though I truly hope not.

aletheia (aletheia)

08-24-2005, 06:17 PM

In the "2010 Morning Star International" white paper (1999 copyright by the IAT - Rice, Phil and Steve), Rice writes in the introduction:

"[i]For over twenty years, the Lord has been shaping and molding the leaders of Morning Star International (MSI) for this purpose. In the past 9 years, MSI has become an instrument that God has raised up to accomplish the task."

If that was written in 1999 and MSI began officially in March, 1994 (or unofficially established ca. 1992 or earlier), what organization do you think he is referring to? Maranatha? Champions for Christ? Other?

(cf. Intro. page of www.morningstar2010.com/web-files/The%202010%20Initiative.pdf (http://www.morningstar2010.com/web-files/The%202010%20Initiative.pdf)) Sorry, this pdf file seems to have just been taken off the internet.

bartoc (bartoc)

08-24-2005, 08:19 PM

OK..I realize I am late on this post..but after catching up, I had to address a previous post last week. This is a copy of the post on Chapter 7, but I wanted to make sure Snikkers read it, if still around.

Snikkers -

I read your post with my heart open. I understand you have a different view of the issues and I respect that. However as a Christian or a believer of any faith in a higher power, do we not have the charter to listen to each other with a compassionate open heart? I am afraid I do not hear that in your post.

If you will review the history of this site all people are welcome and asked to submit their viewpoint. But there are a lot of very emotionally, and a financially hurt people on this site trying to find meaning in what has happened. The odd thing is that in comparing notes themes and patterns emerge. Oh different names are associated but still an end conclusion of shame, sorrow and anger.

I make a plea that you do not just read a handful of these posts and draw a conclusion of negative rhetoric, but read most, if not all with a open mind. Ask yourself if they have a right to their feelings and reality.

Then come join us on a debate of issues, beliefs and thoughts. Trust me...this group is listening with an open heart and love. If you accept the challenge....WELCOME ABOARD!

(Message edited by bartoc on August 24, 2005)

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-24-2005, 09:33 PM

aletheia, good points. It was unanswered questions like those that led me to put together a timeline in the first place. I originally wanted to see if I could find out more about the movement's history between 1990 and 1994. It wasn't until later that it became a timeline of the entire movement.

Late last year this excerpt from Every Nation in Our Generation was posted to EN's website... http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?id=467

And the 1990 date extrapolated from the 2010 Initiative corresponds with the founding date ENCM (formerly VCM) officially claims: http://www.vcm.com/default.asp?id=194; http://ministries.everynation.org/default.asp?nc=9427&id=460

... which happens to be the year MCM legally dissolved.

ps... the 2010 Initiative is still online - it's been moved: http://ministries.everynation.org/web_files/The%202010%20Initiative.pdf

(Message edited by ulyankee on August 24, 2005)

upcase20 (upcase20)

08-25-2005, 05:41 AM

"SINCE IT'S INCEPTION IN 1990" . . .THAT'S FUNNY. HOW ABOUT TELLING THE REAL STORY. BOB WENER, CIRCA 1981, THAT'S HOW IT REALLY STARTED.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

08-26-2005, 10:28 AM

Maranatha started in the early Seventies in Paducah out of Broadway United Methodist Church. Bob Weiner married to Rose nee Russell whose father was pastor of the Methodist church. Drugs were a problem in Paducah as they were in many a small town, so they began to have concerts in the park with a group of newly saved kids in the band. In the summer of '73 Bob Weiner was preaching at night and kids were pouring out of the seats to the message of Lordship. A house at 2500 Washington St. became the Maranatha House, Bob and Rose lived next door. Some jokingly referred to it as the Marijuana House because Bob drove a Porsche 914 and was thought to be a drug dealer(a minister driving a Porsche?) After a few months to a year the ministry moved it's meeting place to a former Presbyterian church building. The campus ministry in Murray was started in a similar coffee house style in a defunct frat house. Donated paint adorned this mecca in pumkin and with brown trim (gives you tie-dyed goose bumps just thinking about it). There were some folks who were more grace oriented and their influence waned, in fact some of them left. I remember as a new believer being told about my having a discipler chosen for me. A long haired brother with a hash pipe pouch for his new testament on his belt. Deliverance, and other such goodies unheard of in Western Ky. began to be practiced under the aegis of Derek Prince's teaching tapes. Somewhere along in here we stopped singing rapture songs Bill Britton's overcomers and enduring the tribulation became our tune. Would we be committed enough not to take the mark of the beast?

Our little berg had Charismatics like The Second Chapter of Acts, and Honeytree come through though usually not without some sort of hassel. Through the FGBMI (Full Refered more to the sateing of their appetites than spirituality) a young Kenneth Copeland spoke at the Civic Center which we shepherdians attended. Jim and Tammy Faye held an impromptu telethon in Paducah at the outset of PTL'S adventures. Jim having freshly departed from Paul Crouch was calling his ministry "Trinity" at the time along with the PTL club suspended somewhere between Pat Robertson and the former. We also got the big idea of producing our first television show at Channel 29. (a barely there UHF station that was a business venture propped up by RCA.) Ameturish, I'm sure the tape has been buried somewhere except we had 16mm prints made of the videotape master and played them at campuses and anyplace else we could get someone to stand still for thirty minutes. Rice Broocks showed up in Paducah around '79-'80 and preached Kenneth Copeland and Norvel Hayes to us a decided counterpoint to C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak.

When the break-up occured in '89 I was astonished when Bob Weiner was made the bag-man for pugancious behavior and abuse. We had a raft of jerks and minions who'd sell granny in an instant for recognition. Whether that came from Rice, Bob, Joe Smith, or Nick Pappas or one of their cohorts we as a whole abused folks who either got in our way or stepped on them on the way to the empire. Some of our most offensive in that department chuckled and joked during the Maranatha swan song of December 1989. Bob Weiner's repentance speach on the platform where I stood not thirty feet away could have been a group repentance. Should have been a repentance of everyone in some leadership capacity for having our priorities wrong, instead it was a sucker punch. Bob Weiner who deserved to repent, but not alone, got to be the poster child for everything wrong in Maranatha and those who led him and us there got to be luminaries.

If a some doomsday hoedown looms for EN all these years hence...
John

tamara_may (tamara_may)

08-26-2005, 03:30 PM

I'm relatively new to all this & have been reading postings from a while ago from various threads. You've given me much food for thought. Some things I've read & thought "Ok, makes sense". Others I've read & thought "Are these people for real?"

As a former staff member at a South African EN church I've been thinking a lot about what happened during my time there & asking myself a few questions about how I feel about what I saw & heard there. Some of my experiences were good, and others not so good. Any ideas on how to begin the processing process?

Anyway, I don't really have anything worthwhile to say just yet. Just thinking aloud, I suppose. For now, I'll keep following the discussions.

Tamara

coppertree (coppertree)

08-26-2005, 11:03 PM

Hi Tamara May, Welcome ! I was former staff, also. Yes please, as they say down south in Us. Hide and watch, if you like. Hopefully Speakword and Japanoy, will come to talk with you and us. Ask any question and trust Him who loves you, guide you.}

james_john_doe (james_john_doe)

08-27-2005, 12:34 AM

Matthew 13:24-30
Here is another story Jesus told: "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a farmer who planted good seed in his field. But that night as everyone slept, his enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat. When the crop began to grow and produce grain, the weeds also grew. The farmer's servants came and told him, `Sir, the field where you planted that good seed is full of weeds!'
" `An enemy has done it!' the farmer exclaimed.

" `Shall we pull out the weeds?' they asked.

"He replied, `No, you'll hurt the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds and burn them and to put the wheat in the barn.' "

How do you guys think this verse applies to Every Nation? I believe the general consensus is that there are only a couple of bad weeds in the mix... so what does this mean then? I think that this means, Every Nation is not a cult.

coppertree (coppertree)

08-27-2005, 01:21 AM

Hi Bartoc- thank you so much for replying to snkkiers, well said. I hope that you take comfort in this your battle is ours too, and many here who have to post as, yet... We thank you for your stand, many times over..much love and prayers and stand strong with us for you}

coppertree (coppertree)

08-27-2005, 01:51 AM

Hi John , I may well know the backstory from those days when Bob w. stepped down; the soon and coming law suits( and more coming) in light of what the Supreme Ct. decision was, moved things on, so to speak.}

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

08-27-2005, 03:27 AM

Ctree,
I understand the lawsuits precipitated many moves to reorganize Maranatha and Bob's repentance. I also remember after leaving Maranatha in '90 praying for folks who were still suffering abuse in what became of Maranatha particularly in California. The pattern of seeking to ameliorate the abusive or excessive conduct throughout the ministry is similar to how things are panning now. Regardless of the lawsuits I thought the abusers were getting away with stuff under the radar screen-still are. It may have satisfied some leagl exegencies to demonize the figurehead of the ministry, but the excesses went on and on. Someone in L.A. remodeled the pastor's house after the Maranatha demise at a substantial loss. This occurred because they had agreed to a ridiculously low price while submitting to authority in the church. They wound up leaving the church under a cloud, the pastor sold the home for a handsome profit. I remember folks coming out of this church weeping uncontrolably, gut wrenching sobs as we prayed for their healing.
John

dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)

08-27-2005, 04:26 AM

Hi tamara_may,

Welcome to the board. My wife Anne and I were part of the leadership at Maranatha Church in Johannesburg from Sept of 1990 through June of 1993, shortly after the merger with His People. Our experience was positive in large part because we had experienced far worse stuff as members of the Washington DC Maranatha and working at the Gainesville office.

upcase20 (upcase20)

08-29-2005, 05:16 AM

"FAR WORSE STUFF" ?? CLARIFY THIS, DO EVERYONE A FAVOR AND GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES.

bill_mack (bill_mack)

08-29-2005, 04:17 PM

Hey Dawson and Anne,

Have you got a copy of the "Maranatha Unmasked" CDROM yet? I think both of you would stand to benefit by getting this CD as it contains historical Maranatha documents that, before now, have never seen the light of day.

For instance, there is the 1983 expose' by Alan and Kathy Myatt. Everything they wrote in this report directly applies in today's milieu.

Be happy to send you a copy...

--Bill Mack

upcase20 (upcase20)

08-30-2005, 05:52 AM

HEY BILL. I ALREADY HAVE THIS CD. IT'S GOOD. ONCE AGAIN THANKS.

dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)

08-30-2005, 12:54 PM

My Snip: Our experience was positive in large part because we had experienced far worse stuff as members of the Washington DC Maranatha and working at the Gainesville office.

upcase20 snip: "FAR WORSE STUFF" ?? CLARIFY THIS, DO EVERYONE A FAVOR AND GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES.

Someday I'll post my journey. But let me amend what I said about South Africa. It wasn't that SA looked good only because my USA experience was so bad. My experience in Johannesburg was healing in many ways for me, not the least because of several good friends I made.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

08-30-2005, 01:21 PM

Dawson
Did you wear spectacles?

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-30-2005, 03:03 PM

Hey all... sorry for the break in the discussion. As more news is coming out of the New Orleans, Mississippi and Alabama areas hit by Hurricane Katrina, it seems that the devastation is quite severe. There are two EN churches in the areas immediately impacted by Katrina... I have been and will continue to pray for those congregations (as well as the sister congregation to my current church, which is also on the Northshore) and for the region affected by the storm.

John_R, if you're out there, I hope you and yours are ok. I know BR wasn't in the direct path but hoping that you don't have loved ones or friends directly impacted.

blessings,
ulyankee

dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)

08-30-2005, 03:38 PM

speakword2004 I don't wear spectacles but as my wife and sons will tell you I often make a spectacles of myself.

On a more serious note, I join with ulyankee and all the other praying for the folks in New Orleans, Mississippi and Alabama.

lkbk2gofwd (lkbk2gofwd)

08-30-2005, 04:04 PM

folks,

the fact that this board is monitored by EN and that posting here risks one's anonymity became personal reality last night. it doesn't feel good to me. more icky than anything. i now feel foolish.

whatever comfort i thought i was gaining through the conversations has evaporated, knowing that my thoughts, experience and feelings are identified and circulating among those who know me. and, in retrospect, i have to admit that sharing stories and getting feedback in hopes of some healing seem less the focus here than debating issues. oh, well. i should have known better. most likely, as has been my pattern, i did. i just didn't act on it.

i hope something i said was of benefit to some and that nothing was offensive to all. (and maybe someone laughed a time or two.)

now back to our regular programming...

-LkBk2GoFwd

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-30-2005, 06:53 PM

lkbk2gofwd,

I feel terrible that you have experienced any kind of backlash for your participation here. I will continue praying for you, brother. I personally can understand if you need to back off for your own safety and well-being, but I for one am very glad you stopped here for even just a short while. I'm so sorry you didn't find the healing and support you were looking for here. This really grieves me b/c it seems that even though many of the regular posters here are sincere at heart, that there may possibly be "lurkers" whose intentions are not as clearly known. This isn't directed to all who read and don't post, because I know there must be others who read this board with the best of intentions. But this is scary that if I'm understanding this correctly, apparently lkbk2's identity has been breached as a result of his participation here, and unfortunately this isn't the first time I've heard of this happening, either.

To any EN leaders, pastors, etc. who may be monitoring this board, including both those who desire and pray for true reformation and repentance in EN **AND** those who may be quite happy with the status quo and/or may have had anything to do with posters here being identified against their will or harrassed off list...

Feel free to write me at ulyankee@yahoo.com.

I will correspond with anyone.

If you have issues with the timeline or any of my posts, I welcome feedback and criticism.

And know that I pray for you, daily.

blessings,
ulyankee

aletheia (aletheia)

08-30-2005, 08:33 PM

To any EN leaders, pastors, etc. who may be monitoring this board, including both those who desire and pray for true reformation and repentance in EN...

Ulyankee - I just noticed your post. Look at the word I shared (Aug. 26 thread).

aletheia
(my computer's down, sharing another...pray for us; we're under attack)

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-30-2005, 09:03 PM

Thanks aletheia, I did see your post. I'll be praying for God's protection for you too...

Feel free to write me off list too if you feel so led.

blessings,
ulyankee

lc_20 (lc_20)

08-30-2005, 10:49 PM

lkbk,
I don't know what to say... I am obviously not to impressed with your circle of friends. Sounds like they gave you a kick while you were down. One way to look at this is that you have nothing to lose now by posting here. One good thing about having your worst fear come true is that the fear is over.

I am sorry that we did not live up to your expectations. In particular, I am sorry I was not able to help you in your search for comfort and peace. I have to admit that I was emotionally caught up in the TF story mostly because it involved kids and I lost track of your painful situation. For that I appologies.

I have complete faith that where your friends have failed you and this board has failed you, Christ can still come through. Through Him you will find your comfort and peace.

Isaiah 42:3
A bruised reed He will not break
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.

(Message edited by lc 20 on August 30, 2005)

coppertree (coppertree)

08-30-2005, 11:44 PM

Hi Lkb2, I know well the push pull you feel ; and the hurts that you have described so well. It takes a while to get sea legs, so to speak. You well may turn back again;, it was a lot of our youth, and great wishes that don't go so quickly. You were very brave in your posts. Thank you, please lurk and pray for us, as we will you.}

bartoc (bartoc)

08-31-2005, 12:32 AM

Thank you Coppertree. Your post made me http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

japinoy (japinoy)

08-31-2005, 01:40 AM

(Pasting this here from pt 7)

20 years ago, my parents went to a 700 people church in Manila. The pastor never preached money in the pulpit but preached a Christ centered gospel.

The pastor and his wife even did'nt let the people call them "pastor" but instead call them "brother or sister".

They had Bible studies everyweek before the service started. The bible study was divded according into steps so that new believers could start from the beggining. And the most greatest thing is that they didn't charge money at all. Cause they wanted all people young & old, rich & poor to be able to study the Word of God.

So because of this, even people who cannot afford small amount of money can still come and join. Not only that, they even had Transportation Ministry for those who cannot afford to pay public transportation to go to church. (FYI In the Philippines there are many poor people)

This is trully a kind of church that is not obsessed about money, but really knows the deep meaning of what the Word says... "It is better to give than to receive."

I believe that the Word of God is given to us free of charge so that we could also give to others free. I also believe that a healthy church can budget from their income tithes the costs to have Bible studies as Paul did. It is written....

2 Cor 11:3-15

3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity* that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested among you in all things. 7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?

8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Though this verse is not talking about Bible studies, it is talking about preaching the Word of God and it may be applied in Bible studies as well.

How many people in here agrees that a healthy church should not charge money from God's people for Bible studies?

lc_20 (lc_20)

08-31-2005, 01:49 AM

Japinoy,
I heard it said in msi/en that people don't appreciate what doesn't cost them anything. That is how they justified the prices.

japinoy (japinoy)

08-31-2005, 02:14 AM

I wrote my previous posts because my Dad was charged $300 for VLI when we were still in a Morning Star Ineternational church in Japan.
My dad joined cause he wanted to learn more about the Word of God, but what was taught was more about church building strategies, evangelizing strategies more than the Word of God. They used the verses to back up their strategies but the Scriptures itself was not the main focus. My dad quit after 1 month. He thought that it was nothing but a salesman class.

I beleive that a Bible study should be purely Bible centered and charging someone to learn the Word of God is not biblical at all.

I pray to God that He may open the eyes of many blinded people to see the Truth in His words. Because it is Christ's truth that shall set all men free from the deception of satan.

I believe Tamara_may and other ENI members are still reading the posts here because the HolySpirit is guiding them. I use to go to a church who joined ENI. Before that church joined it, the pastor preached Christ's gospel purely. But as the number of people grew, his message started to focus on money and blessings instead of the Cross of Christ which Paul boast of. Then they joined ENI. That's when the lust of my former pastor got justified by the false doctrine of ENI. The church preached the false doctrine of Prosperity Gospel. That being rich is successful, giving more money to the pastors, church will bless you more. At least that was what Joey Bonifacio preached at my former church as far as I remember.

I had no peace in Spirit because I knew from my childhood about the true pure gospel. That even if a person is poor in flesh, he can be rich in Spirit through Christ and His words! And that this is the spiritual riches that Christ wants us to seek and not the things of this world can offer. Even a child can understand these verse...

Mt 6:19 - 20
"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. "

Since I knew about this verse, there was no peace in my heart when I hear ear tickeling Prosperity Gospels.

If ENI is from Christ, it will not preach a half truth and half false gospel. A true Spiritual Christian denies His flesh and carries his cross and obey Christ Words even in the midst of poverty, persecution, hardships and trials. Only a carnal or false christian lifts up an ear tickling gospel.

I suggest those who's in EveryNation Int. to test what you hear from your leaders with the Word of God. Study it yourself deeply and don't rely on your leader's interpretation of the bible. Seek the HolySpirit to teach you the real meanning of the Scriptures. Get an KJV with greek/hebrews dictionaries to get a more correct interpretation of the Bible. Because it is written....

1 John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

If you follow what John is telling is to do, then the HolySpirit will open our eyes as it has opened many people's eyes by the Truth. This is when discerment will be given to any who seeks Christ. It is Christ who will take away the veil that is covering the eyes of people. Not leaders or pastors nor apostles nor so called prophets in ENI

japinoy (japinoy)

08-31-2005, 02:37 AM

Thank you for your reply lc_20 (lc_20). Well ENI are wrong! I have seen people who paid and yet they skipped and made excuses from attending VLI.
It's more like ENI don't want to work for something they wont earn nothing. Another way for money making to pay their organizations huge bills like Joey Bonifacio's hotel and airplane tickets.

It's sad to see people not realizing that charging for teaching the bible is not what Paul did. But he preached free of charge! Praise the Lord!

Like what my previous posts said, 20 years ago the Word of God was taught to my parents free of charge! And because of that, I was able to learn the Word of God free of charge. And because of that, I grew up into a person who wants to preach the Word of God free of charge! So now I am preaching in a very small church free of charge! Yes, no income. God is providing me whatever I need. Just seeing people being saved and transformed by Christ is my reward that blesses me!

The gospel is given to us by Christ free of charge! Cause Christ paid them all with His own life! Why should I charge someone for something that was given to me free of charge?

The reason people don't appreciate the Word of God when it's given for free is because they are not really hungry for it. If someone gives me something free that I really really needed, I will really appreciate that from the bottom of my heart. Matter of fact, I'm still using it after so many years.

It's the same thing with the Word of God. If someone is really hunger for Christ's word, he will appreciate the Word of God and will completely be transformed by it's power. It's the HolySpirit that draw people to Christ's word and not payment.

ginger1 (ginger1)

08-31-2005, 05:03 AM

japinoy , Joey Bonifacio does not charge anything to the church. All of that comes from his own pocket. I know very well VLI in the philippines does not charge as much as the US or any part of the world. My sister goes to VLI in the philippines, in fact none of those pastors get paid to teach in VLI. People are just paying the materials PLUS food. I know Joey Bonifacio personally. Even Jun Escosar don't get paid by the church, he is supported by his brother in law who is pastor and own a church here in Cupertino. Steve Murrell gets his support from different churches in U.S. , My current church support him, Gary Senna's church also support him. He get no money from the top MSI/EN ministry.
More than half of the pastor over there don't even get paid from their church. I do not know which church you went to, but probably one of those provincial churches that have different rules and regulation from the Manila churches. Now they do get paid by their respective churches. Joseph Carodan gets his support from his family here. The only pastor I know are getting paid are Manny Muleta, Ferdie Cabiling ,and a few others. ANd Manny Muleta gets 40,000 pesos. a month. So you divided that with 55.00. Thats only $727.00 a month. So don't post things that you do not know.
I can check with a friend of mine here how much they charge in VLI also. There are a few pastors visiting here.

ginger1 (ginger1)

08-31-2005, 06:01 PM

Almost all the filipino pastor has a second income. They all work on the side selling something. Joey Bonifacio still has his own business, Gree Tea business. he has shipped some of his product here in San Francisco Ca. chinatown. It being sold here. Manny Muleta and his wife has to pull out their kids out of school because they cannot pay for their tuition fees, they cannot afford it. Their first born did not go to school for a whole year , Now they are homeschooling all of them. Some of the pastors are homeschooling since they cannot afford to pay for tuition fees. And you know very well that public school in the philippines are very bad , they graduate without learning english. Manny Carlos has his own christian school that he has established in the phillipines, so A LOT OF THE PASTORS HAVE SECOND INCOME.
Anybody who wants to preach in Manila , on the pulpit are NOT GETTING PAID. They are being tested, they are NOT allowed to raised money, they have to learn to lived by faith. People know this and people give to them voluntarily. Thats how they lived, after a year or so, then they can ask if they can be paid. Thats when they can be PAID ! EVEN all the minister who are getting an MPD have second income ! MPD is not enough !The only person that I know of that have no second income is Jun Escosar since his wife have 11 siblings and all of them are here in the U.S. And most of them sent money to him.
As I said before, I KNOW THEM PERSONALLY !

ulyankee (ulyankee)

08-31-2005, 07:53 PM

Which begs the question... Where are World Partners funds going? I know that here in the US, World Partners is presented as directly supporting missions and missionaries. I have been to multiple World Partners Sundays and believed this was what the money was being used for. I was once a monthly World Partner. I have also heard taped appeals by EN leaders speaking in other churches who said the same thing... beyond implied but actually stating that the funds were going DIRECTLY to missionaries and specific international church plants.

However, it does not appear that this may really be the case. I didn't learn about MPD and the fact that missionaries and international pastors raise their own support until AFTER I had left EN. MPD was not presented as an alternative giving option in the US churches I personally attended. It may be different in the Philippines... I know that people could at one time make MPD contributions online. But on the US based website one can access a MPD application for those wanting to go through MPD training (if you know where to find it), but nothing telling contributors they can give directly to a MPD supported missionary vs. World Partners.

Does anyone know more? Has anyone seen an accounting of World Partners funds?

Note that in the Guidelines document, World Partners is portrayed as a major financial "pillar" for MSI (EN), and that pastors are to encourage all "giving units" in their churches (otherwise known as members) to become monthly World Partners, as part of their membership in the MSI/EN convention of churches.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on August 31, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

08-31-2005, 09:06 PM

I only know one person that gets money from World Partner. Luther Mancao. It is more or less $1800 a month. Thats the only person I know in the entire philippines. And these people Advertise and Promote World Partner as if they are sending several Thousands of dollars to the philippines. With all the glossy brochures and campaign, you think Phillipines is getting several hundreds of thousands of dollars! And by the way only ONE also in India.
As I said before, World Partner is a SCAM.
Get them to OPEN THEIR BOOKS !!!!

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 12:18 AM

ginger1

I appologize and thank you for your informations and for clearifying my misunderstanding regarding Joey Bonifacio. I remember that he mentioned that had a business going on. Does he have a golf course too?

I assumed that they were doing the same thing with what my former pastor was doing just because they came as a special guest at my former church.

Cause I know for a fact that my former pastor used the church money for his and his family's plane tickets to travel around,& for hotels, and for paying his $1500/mo house rent.

Here in Japan, MSI really did charge $300 for VLI. That is for sure.

Anyway, I believe you when you mentioned that many filipino ENI pastors have to have a second job to feed their family due to being poor. Then the prosperity gospel which Joey Bonifacio was preaching is not working in their life? Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "prosperity gospel?"

Joey Bonifacio and Jun Escosar preached prosperity gospel when they came here in Japan. I know this cause I was listening to their message with my own ears at that time. They preached money, God will make you rich by giving to church or pastor more money. He gave many testimony like God gave him a better car when he gave away his old one. How come many ENI pastors are still poor as you mentioned? Is Joey's doctrine cannot be applied to those who have nothing to invest? Or is it just another false doctrine?

And another thing, a church doesn't need $90 -$300/mo per person for bible studies. The text book they provided were by XEROX copies in binders which only costs less than $5 each. Why do you think a church need to charge this much?
Oh, I remember them buying a $5,000 curtain to make the church interior look better.

My church in the Philippines 20 years ago didnt ask for money to have a Bible class. Because of this, many poor people were trained and many are pastors now. Why do VLI needs to charge money?
Because they wont respect the class if they dont pay? That is an unbiblical answer.

I really believe the organization Every Nation International itself is a scam that's why they have to change their names more than a couple of times.

I'm sorry for those poor ENI pastors in the Philippines. But most of all, I'm sorry for them that they have to be under man to be approved rather than being under Christ himself to be approved. ENI is nothing but a religious scam.

(Message edited by japinoy on August 31, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 01:45 AM

i spoke with a friend of mine, since he is a pastor, he said they were charge 500 pesos or $9. thats nine dollars for VLI for the entire semester, I think thats 6 months. But for regular people I think its twice. So around $18.
By the way thats include supper/dinner for 6 months or the entire semester.

Quite frankly I think a lot of pastors are getting into the prosperity gospel. Though I rather believed that God will meet all your needs.
Joey Bonifacio does not have a golf course.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 02:16 AM

Thanks for clearing up some stuff for me. Cause I remember Joey mentioning a "golf course" Probably he meant having a property as big as a golf course?

Anyway, Wow, $18 dollars for 6 months w/ dinner? That's a good deal but thinking about the average income over there in the Philippines, which is $200 a month...

Yes, God is Jehovah Jirah our provider! He will meet our needs not our wants or lust. Wanting to be rich is mostly a common kind of lust of all people of all nations. And prosperity gospel tickels the ears of those who's lusting in money/riches, fame, authority, power, etc.

That's why many people are buying it especially many Americans churches (not to mention those false teachers TV evangelists like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc.) They are those who preach a different "j"esus. It's a kind of jesus that's appealing to the flesh. It's a jesus that denies their Cross and carries their Flesh.

2Cor 11:1-15
1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity* that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 Even though I am untrained in speech, yet I am not in knowledge. But we have been thoroughly manifested* among you in all things. 7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you. 9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

But as for me and my House, we will serve the real Lord which is the One who's according to the Word of God. Not worldly prosperity, not men, not organizations, not religion, but serving Christ and His living Words alone! I hope you believe the same.

By the way, just want to let you know that you were wrong about when you said that Joey Bonifacio pays all his expenses for ministry out of his own pocket. I remember him gathering love offerings from the congregation after preaching apart from the tithes offerings of the church. This is a fact that I saw.

(Message edited by japinoy on August 31, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 03:01 AM

You have to ask your pastor what happened to the money. Joey Bonifacio is on MPD, The pastor may ask him to do the collection which is normal. But keeping the money thats something else since he is on MPD.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 03:29 AM

Fortunately I dont go to prosperity gospel preaching ENI church anymore. Praise God!!! Cause the bible clearly says that it's another jesus, another gospel and to stay away from it.

It seems that you strongly believe that Joey pays 100% out from his own pocket every costs of his ministry. If you personally know Joey, then why don't you ask him if he has ever recieved any finacial blessings from churches in his life? Or if he 100% pays every costs out from his own pocket for his overseas ministry?

By the way, you said Joey pays everything with his own pocket, now you're saying he's on Ministry Partner Development (MPD)?
Doesnt make sense.

When you say he pays from his own pocket, it give's an impression that he is paying the costs of his ministry from his own business income. Now you're saying that MPD is paying for his costs????

(Message edited by japinoy on August 31, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 03:45 AM

Joey has a business a few years back if you remember shark liver oil. He sold his business to a japanese guy. Anyway, that is where his money is coming from. Then he was thinking of starting another business, Jim lafoon came over and prophesied that its NOT GOD'S WILL for him to start a business and that he should be on MPD. AND sure enough he was gone for 2 years doing MPD. Unfortunately, MPD does not pay much. He has to start another business. This time its the Green Tea. Any pastor who did an MPD is not successful, they do not get much out of it.

hizsun (hizsun)

09-01-2005, 03:48 AM

I definitely understand what many of your concerns are. As a believer, I too am concerned. However, if you truly love God and you believe his word. Be careful how you address these issues as well as the people involved. We are all a part of the body of Christ, and more than ever your brother, TF, and his family are in dire need of your prayers and support.

Despite the constant accusations, no one has mentioned the amazing ways that God is using EN to reach the lost. In those things we should boast. Remember, there is another who accuses and from the beginning that has been his job. Please don't side with him (Satan). When in doubt, err on the side of faith and forgivenss. Voice your concerns, but remember that you are talking about a child of God. If you have any fear of God in you, then perhaps that will indeed mean something.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 03:49 AM

Everytime all these pastors comes to america, ALL of that came from their own pocket. That includes hotel and airfare. I know I already spoken to some of them and their biggest complaint is the COST. Example MPD training cost them $800 to stay in a hotel alone, those came from their own pockets. Thats not including food and airfare.

The pastors who are doing MPD only get at most $1400 - $1600 a month some are $800 a month, so as you can see it is not much.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 03:50 AM

Anyway, EveryNation International, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and other of those false prophets and false teachers are all connected with the New Apostolic Reformation movement lead by Peter Wagner another man who preaches another jesus. They all preach prosperity gospel aswell.
Any church or pastor who's attached with this cultic movement applies their false doctrine, love for money, having a form of godliness but denying it's power.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 03:58 AM

Prosperity gospel (fleshly doctrine) is from Satan. Anybody who preaches this false gospel using the name of JESUS is not from God not of God. They came from the deciever who's satan.

If anybody can't see this truth, then that person is blinded not knowing the Truth. For it is written that love of money is root of all evil. Let the Truth set those who is seeking for the Truth free from deception of satan calling it part of body of Christ!

1 Timothy 6:6-12
6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain F13 we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 04:05 AM

Hizsun, maybe you should turn around and tell that to the MSI/EN leaders. Tell them to forgive TOny and bring him back. ANd tell them to stop the accusations against him also.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 04:09 AM

Hizsun, Since MSI/EN claimed that Tony is getting a lot of people saved, they should bring him back and let him be in charge of the Women's staff house again. Forgive and forget right ? He is once also called "touch not anointed". OR God will avenge correct ? He is a child of God too !

Sorry I am a bit sarcastic right now, since I heard this over and over and over again.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-01-2005, 05:13 AM

hizsun,

I agree with you that the situation and all those involved in the situation need prayer, particularly family members and innocent, injured parties.

Does anyone know if Tony Fetchel has repented of his sin?

Assuming sin has been addressed, yet continues, and finally results in one's removal from the church in accordance with 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18...

AND the person still hasn't repented...

then Scripture clearly states that the person in sin is to be treated as a "pagan" or "tax collector" (Matthew 18:17) and that believers are not to associate with that person as a brother but hand that person over to their sin so that their sinful nature may be destroyed (1 Corinthians 5:5; 9-11). "Expel the wicked man from among you" (1 Corinthians 5:13).

Restoration cannot take place without repentance first. And unfortunately, sometimes it takes handing the unrepentant over to sin (actually, many translations say "to Satan") for that to take place, if I'm reading Paul's epistle correctly.

I do pray though that if it hasn't yet taken place, for repentance on the part of those parties who fell into sin.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 07:11 AM

Mt 23:15 -
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as fit for hell as you are!"

Many christians confuses Salvation and Conversion. Just because a person has the talent and ability to bring people to church and making them members doesnt mean those people are trully saved in Spirit and in Truth. Jesus clearly shows this to us by His rebukes towards those fake converters.

A church doesnt really need the power of Christ to convert more people into their group, denomination, religion. All they need is a strong, intelligent, convincing strategies made by talented people using it to attract people into their group. One of those strategies are, having the techniques of talking(marketing), good entertainment, music, modern cool outside things. Training people to have skills and techniques is really necessary to attract people into their group. Some calls it "discipleship".
But most of all, to be able to convert more people, the group will be needing more skilled staff that has the same vision or goal. This is where brain-washing makes a huge difference. By using brainwash, more staff can be gathered to convert more people into the group. And ofcourse last but not the least, the most famous... "MONEY" It is like the gasoline for the engine. As long as there is cash, this kind of group will keep on running and going to success. No faith required, just simple logic. You will see many cult groups like Mormon's, Church of Christ, Jehova's Witness even protestant churches using these strategies to make their organization larger. A person converted seeks his religion above Christ. Seeks the things that brought attracted him into the group. In that person's mouth you will hear all the goodies that converted him instead of Christ. That person's life is nothing different from the worldly life just religious.

But to save a person's soul, the story is very different. You don't need talents, skills, strategies. You dont need money either. The things needed are.... Deep deep relationship with Christ, lots of lots of prayer listening to His voice and guidance and meditation in Christ's living Word, denying the flesh and carrying their cross, being filled with the HolySpirit and no logic required but pure simple Faith.

A person who is trully saved by Christ is someone who lives for Christ only. Not religion, not denomination, not for the group but for the glory honor and praise of Jesus Christ only. He seeks Christ and hunger for more of His words only. In that person's mouth you will hear nothing but the glory of Christ. That person will be transformed from a worldly life into a Christ like life.

Sounds old fashioned compared to the first one? It is us who's going to choose. Which will you choose? Cross or the Cash?

(Message edited by japinoy on September 01, 2005)

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-01-2005, 07:42 AM

japinoy--

(regarding the posts from 8/31)

I will leave out my comments as to your haste to so readily accuse thousands of believers as false prophets, false teachers, and false believers, other than to say your posts contain the same sociological cultic statements that others have accused Maranatha of having. I do not know if that was your intent.

One must be careful, when condemning the "Prosperity Gospel" to not err in other directions. The "Poverty Gospel" and the "Middle-Class Gospel" are equally--if not more--insidious "gospels". Those "gospels" wrecked my country during the last century, as Christians forgot that they were called to give back to their country, their community, and their God what He had so graciously given them. They took comfort in their apathetic "I-don't-have-to-grow-more-stretch-more-earn-more-give-more-or-be-involved-more" gospel (that you come dangerously close to espousing) all the while letting their country go to hell. Thank God, in the past fifteen years, the Christians in my country have begun to realize what a mistake that was and are now doing something about it. The Gospel is the Gospel and not a "enter-your-word-here Gospel." In it God promises to take care of all my needs as I stay about His purpose.

It is also good to remember that there were wealthy and poor men of God in the Bible. Poverty is no more holy than prosperity. In fact, my Saviour, before he began his ministry, probably lived similar to what we would call middle class today: he owned his own successful wood-working business in a capitalistic free-market agrarian economy.

A Biblical economy will always be prosperous, and Christian compassion within that economy will always take care of the truly needy. The Bible guarantees it. In preaching this, some have hastily been accused of preaching a faulty "Prosperity Gospel" where, instead, they are really preaching that Jehovah Jireh, God Provides. In all of history, I've never seen a nation take as its principles of business the truths of the Gospel and not experience greater financial prosperity. I caution anyone whose understanding of the Scriptures causes them to be apathetic to the needs of world around them, whether financial, civil, spiritual, or otherwise. A greater caution if it causes apathy in their own life.

(Message edited by thecymbrogi on September 01, 2005)

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-01-2005, 07:53 AM

japinoy--

regarding your 9/1 post wherein you said:

"But to save a person's soul ...the things needed are.... Deep deep relationship with Christ, lots of lots of prayer listening to His voice and guidance and meditation in Christ's living Word, denying the flesh and carrying their cross, being filled with the HolySpirit and no logic required but pure simple Faith..... [and the next paragraph following] "

did you really mean to add all those works to salvation? or were you just describing what you believe Lordship looks like once the issue is settled? Sorry for the confusion, I suspect the latter, not the former, if it makes you feel any better <grin>. Perhaps I was confusing your thoughts on sanctification instead of justification ....

--SB

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 08:17 AM

I'm sorry for the confusion. What I meant was when a person wants to save a lost soul for Christ, that person doesnt need talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc.

Jesus is not looking for skilled people to use to save souls for Him. God is looking for servants that would seek Him, and obey His Words. He will use these kind of people to preach the Gospel, and to bring lost souls to Christ.

We are saved by Faith in Christ and not by works. But to bear fruits in Spirit, we have to be sanctified. This is what I basically meant.

Hope this clears things up.

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-01-2005, 08:33 AM

japinoy--

I agree with what you say, but would add that "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc. " are things not to be despised but that we should develop and use. They can be part of the sanctification process. But when all is said and done, after we have done all that we can, we must still rely upon the Holy Spirit and His power. Our skills and talents etc are part of the vessel that God fills with His HS to pour into the world. It's still Him, but it is us, too. (and in that I have metaphorically an Arminian mother and a Calvinistic father).

It can be hard to tell the difference between "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc." without the HS and great "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc." WITH the HS. I would caution against statements against people's hearts just because they appear to have or rely upon "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc.". I've met people with all of those characterics who, at the end of the day, relied only on Jesus to move through their "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc.". Just my opinion and my caution but Christian leaders of big organizations can have all of that going for them and still have Jesus as their only trust and hope--

--SB

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 08:56 AM

thecymbrogi

You dont need God to prosper. According to the Bible, Satan offered Christ the world during His 40 days fasting. But Christ denied satan's offer.

Many church failed to follow what Christ did. Many churches has accepted the bait of satan of seeking worldly sucess than the Cross of Christ.

Many Christians doesnt know that they dont need Christ to get rich in this world. All you need is to be smart and talented in business, education, and strategies to get success in this world. Yeah, like Billgates and Bin Ladin. They are rich but dont have Christ right? And isnt this what America is doing? Taking away the name of God from the Nation the more it prospers?

Just give your life to satan's trap and satan will offer you prosperity. Many people dedicates their life to satan and success in this world.

But there is a trap, though you may success in this world, your soul would be lost for eternity.
I prefer losing my life in this world and having everlasting life with Jesus than gaining this world and losing my own soul!

Mt 16:26 - For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Though I admit I have poor english, I can tell you have poor theology back ground. You really think Jesus was rich and was a succesful business man? Use Bible dictionaries and commentaries to re-study the Bible! Cause it is people like you who gets decieved by those prosperity gospels devils. And I'll study my english text book. hehehe

Mt 8:20 -
Jesus told him, "Foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

Study this verse why Jesus said He doesnt have no place to lay His head. Let the Truth hopefully set you free!

Re 3:17 - 18
Because you say, 'I'm rich; I have become wealthy, and need nothing,' and you don't know that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, and white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see.

Here are some articles regarding your false gospel called PROSPERITY GOSPEL.

http://www.exodusnews.com/Religion/Religion037.htm

http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_020804.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/prosperity.html

(Message edited by japinoy on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 09:03 AM

"but would add that "talents, skills, techniques, strategies etc. " are things not to be despised but that we should develop and use. They can be part of the sanctification process."}

Prove this to me BIBLICALLY & not using your own standards. Then I might agree with you.
Cause I am sick and tired of religous people using their own words twisting the Scripture to back up their own ideas and standards. It makes me puke!

All I will believe and agree is what is written in the Scriptures ONLY!

I dont know about you, but as for me and my house, this is what we will believe....

Corinthians 2:1-5
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony* of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human F4 wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

(Message edited by japinoy on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 09:19 AM

"Thank God, in the past fifteen years, the Christians in my country have begun to realize what a mistake that was and are now doing something about it. The Gospel is the Gospel and not a "enter-your-word-here Gospel." In it God promises to take care of all my needs as I stay about His purpose. "

By the way thecymbrogi, is your country the USA? If so, then you are blinded and don't see that your country's moral is much worse than ever! Worse than Japan which a non-christian country.

It is America that has allowed gay marriage!
It is America that took off prayer from schools and prohibits children from praying & reading the bible in schools! What are the Prosperity Churches doing over there? Too busy making profits and twisting the gospel for their own prosperity and making church bigger and more acceptable to the world! LAODECIA church!

What happened to the Cross of Christ centered gospel? Though I know there are still people who is faithful to Christ and who hasnt bowed down to American Idolatry. Praise God for those few people! They are the real light in the darkness, pure salt in the land!

P.S. If your country is not USA, then forget about what I wrote here and I'll delete it.

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-01-2005, 09:58 AM

japinoy--
I'm running out of time here so let's start at the bottom and go up; i have no time left to check for semantics or typos so, off the cuff: yes, definitely US and yes, you are definately correct. You proved my point how, last century, Christians removed themselves from involvement b/c of the apathetic gospel and our nation decayed morally. So, Christians here are finally realizing that in the world but not of the world means....being in the world and doing something about it. We appear to have no disagreement here.

next post up:
sanctification: do you not believe that, as we grow in Christ, we become more like Him? Does his Spirit not guide us, mold us, change us? As I study the Word, do you not believe that God can teach me new skills in language? talents in communicating? stratagies to meet my neighborhood? techniques on how operate my business? If you disagree here, let me know. I think your challenge with what I said was either how I said it or how you interpreted it. God does not come inside of us and then do nothing about changing us to be more like him.

Finally, third post up, I'm not talking about a "prosperity gospel" for starters. Two, let's not get into a debate about who has more theological training etc. knowledge puffs up and your statement comes across as arrogant, which I doubt you mean. It's all about revelation or what the Bible refers to as understanding....besides, I know of many brilliant theologians who disagree and some who even know Jesus.....

When God is in my life, does that mean I am going to starve to death? No, the bible clearly states that he will provide what we need. If he has called us to a particular place and time, he will provide for us there what we need. That's what I mean when I talk about God's providence in providing what we need. I don't see how you can disagree with that but if you are condemening that then we do disagree here...

And, last point in that post, I didn't say Jesus was rich. It's not as much about theology as history, since we have little info from 12 years to the beginning of his ministry. as eldest son, he would have supported a mother and had younger brothers. He was most likely reponsible for them after Joseph died until the youngest sibling was at an independent age. He was not what I would call poor as a carpenter. He was not rich, either. There really was not middle class per se before the Victorian era but, compartively, he did not have the same worry for food and shelter that an unskilled laborer would have in an agrarian society then or today. B/c of that, I made the comment that his position was liken to what we would call middle class today--he could provide for the basics. He had a skill he used until the Father sent him to minister. I am only assuming base upon what I know of agrarian socities. Enlighten me as to why you think he had the same struggles as an agrarian unskilled worker had.

(Message edited by thecymbrogi on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 11:05 AM

the cymbrogi

"sanctification: do you not believe that, as we grow in Christ, we become more like Him? Does his Spirit not guide us, mold us, change us?"

-I agree with you with this because it is written that those who believes in Christ are predestined to be comfirmed to the Image of Christ.

"As I study the Word, do you not believe that God can teach me new skills in language? talents in communicating? stratagies to meet my neighborhood? techniques on how operate my business? If you disagree here, let me know."

-You still dont understand. People dont need God to learn new skills in language, to have talents in communicating, learning strategies to meet your neighborhood. Even the Mormons, Church of Christ, JehovahsWitness and other cult religions are experts with these stuff even they carry a false Christ. Besides these things makes a person boast on his on ability, and rely on it instead of relying in Christ.

"I'm not talking about a "prosperity gospel" for starters."

-Well Im talking about Prosperity Gospel fakes at the very first. Joey Bonifacio preached to give more money to church and pastor and God will bless you with more money. By the way, better read the link I attached at my previous posts regarding Prosperity Gospel.

"Two, let's not get into a debate about who has more theological training etc. knowledge puffs up and your statement comes across as arrogant, which I doubt you mean. It's all about revelation or what the Bible refers to as understanding"

-You are right with this one. I have no interest in debating regarding on this. The thing Im trying to brag about is that God can use unskilled people to fulfill His will. What He seeks is obedience and hunger for His Word. Because those people will trust and rely on Christ more. Skilled people tends to do things with their own strength. That is why Ive met so many proud worshipleaders in an ENI church thinking that they are someone special or something.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, F3 lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

"I didn't say Jesus was rich."

- Not only He was not rich, He was made poor. He was persecuted, was abandoned, rejected and crucified on the cross of Calvary for the sake of all men.

2Co 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

I wish you can base your posts more biblically not on your own wordings cause that is what we are ought to do, To renew our minds with His living Word. Let the Truth seth you free!

By the way, it is ENI that has been labeled "sociological CULT"

If there is any statement I made that sounds like a cult like your group, then bring it up to me, correct it with the Scriptures NOT WITH YOUR OWN WORD OR EXPERIENCE PLEASE!

japinoy (japinoy)

09-01-2005, 11:32 AM

"A Biblical economy will always be prosperous, and Christian compassion within that economy will always take care of the truly needy. The Bible guarantees it. In preaching this, some have hastily been accused of preaching a faulty "Prosperity Gospel" where, instead, they are really preaching that Jehovah Jireh, God Provides. In all of history, I've never seen a nation take as its principles of business the truths of the Gospel and not experience greater financial prosperity. I caution anyone whose understanding of the Scriptures causes them to be apathetic to the needs of world around them, whether financial, civil, spiritual, or otherwise. A greater caution if it causes apathy in their own life. "

Where in the Bible is this written? Prove it to me in SCRIPTURES NOT IN YOUR OWN STANDARDS@please. If its biblical, then I will believe it. As for now I will believe in this....

Revelation 2:8-11

8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall)

09-01-2005, 12:20 PM

Cymborgi wrote:
As I study the Word, do you not believe that God can teach me new skills in language? talents in communicating? stratagies to meet my neighborhood? techniques on how operate my business?

<<<Where is Scripture that represents these statements?

New language skills? Communicating new talents? Strategies?

NO. We are to feed the poor, care for the needy and love one another.

I am at a lost as to how you have gleaned your above statements from your study of the Bible?

cupatea (cupatea)

09-01-2005, 12:57 PM

Japinoy - I'm as anti prosperity doctrine as you maybe even more so but your obsession with it is beginning to wear thin. You have posted about prosperity doctrine in so many threads that it is not related to. Anyhow. I don't believe in prosperity doctrine. I believe tithing is an old testament command and us in the new testament have to live by an even higher standard. I don't even believe the finances you give into the kingdom have to go to your local church. Having said all that you ask for bible verses so let me post a few as devils advocate.

In 2 Corinthians 9 Paul makes reference to a financial gift, an offering for the saints even.

6 The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written, "He scatters abroad, he gives to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever."
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way for great generosity, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God; 12 for the rendering of this service not only supplies the wants of the saints but also overflows in many thanksgivings to God. 13 Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others; 14 while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

Notes:
v8 God supplies all we need why? - so that we may always abound in every good work.

Now remember that this chapter is about finances and here is where prosperity doctrine gets it wrong. You don't sow financially to reap the financial benefits for yourself whether you are member or a pastor. You sow in faith what you have made up in your mind to give (v8 - note nothing about 10% here). You reap in accordance to what you sow - sparingly or bountifully - again remember this chater is about finances. but why do you reap - so you can sow more again. Here I don't necessarily mean to your local church and here is where EN and I differ significantly. v9 says that he who scatters abroad and gives to the poor - his righteousness endures forever. hmmmm ... I guess that isn't the local church then ??

v10 makes the statement that the finances come from God and it is he who will supply and multiply our resources.

Let's go to Luke 19 now. Lk19:11-27 tells the story of the king who goes on holiday and gave his servants money to deal with while he was gone. When he returned one had increased 10 fold one 5 fold and the other nothing. He had hid the money in fear. The king was furious and said:
22 He said to him, `I will condemn you out of your own mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have collected it with interest?' 24 And he said to those who stood by, `Take the pound from him, and give it to him who has the ten pounds.' 25 (And they said to him, `Lord, he has ten pounds!') 26 `I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.'

I'm not saying this passage refers directly to finances but the principle is there. God has given us all that we have. There is nothing that we can give him back that he hasn't already given us (except our obedience) and that includes our fincances. I'm not saying that if you give you will get richer. NO! When you sow what you have into his kingdom you reap the return for sure BUT IT STILL BELONGS TO HIM.

Go back to 2 Corinthians 9:11
11You will be enriched in every way for great generosity, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God
Another translation says: You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occassion. You aren't enriched to go out and spend it on yourself. NO! Sure enjoy life - that is scriptural - but when the king comes calling for it you must be generous on every occassion.

v12,13 for the rendering of this service not only supplies the wants of the saints but also overflows in many thanksgivings to God. 13 Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ, and by the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others;

The reason that we sow and reap, the reason that we give any offering at all is not because God tells us to tithe, is not because some demented prosperity doctrine advocate tells us to, but because it gives glory to God. It causes others to praise God. It strengthens the faith of others and encourages them causing them to long for you and pray for you (v14).

So I hope that stirs up a few hornets. No personal attacks please as I have observed some of you to do.

-CAT

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 03:29 PM

Japinoy, Let me explain how church finance works.
When a church received their tithes , those money are allocated for the staff salaries and every expenses that come up. When a pastor went on a business trip like a conference, plane trips , hotel and food , these are covered by the church. The church kept the receipts for tax purposes.
BUT if the pastor went on VACATION Trip then the pastor shoulder that on his own. From his own salary. His own salary should be able to provide him his home.
It just so happen that the Phillipine church lived in a bit higher standard than the U.S. church standard.
BUT if the pastor (Philippines) went out to preach the gospel, and has to take some of those people out , Like a whole basketball team. Those receipt are saved and will be reimbursed by the church. Anyway, the pastor that I am talking about also is not getting paid by the church. He gets his support from his family here in the U.S.

Benny Hinn's salary is around $1.25 million. His ministry received around $100 million a year. Thats only 1 %. So I have no complaint against him on that. It really depends on the percentage.

Joyce Meyer received between $80 million - $100 million, her salary is $900,000 , anyway her administrative staff takes in 20 % of the money, but the rest of 80% went on mission. ANd I am fine with that.

And here is the most recent figure for VLI philippines. I have emailed my sister and she sent me this one.
Php 1,600 pesos per semester or Php 3,200 pesos per year
that is $28.57 per semester or $57.14 per year.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 04:17 PM

Now, if you want a ministry that gave 100%. Thats Edwin Cole. He gave 100%, sold his home and moved in with his children. When he died, there is no money left for adminsitration, upkeep of the warehouse etc. That was a big problem. But in God's grace the ministry did bounce back. AND will not do that again. Sometimes you have to used wisdom in these things. Or else they can put you in red. There are ministries who lived by faith. Who will give 100%. Graham Cooke, I think in England would do that.
IT really depends on their faith. Ministries Giving 100% is no more righteous than another giving 80%.
If MSI/EN wants to preach the prosperity gospel, thats fine. But open the books, like any other ministries.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-01-2005, 05:28 PM

Japinoy,
Prosperity gospel is not the problem, The main problem is where the money is being used. IF it is truly allocated to the places they said so. Thats my problem with MSI/EN. Most of the money did not go to places they said it will go. like the Philippines.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-01-2005, 08:59 PM

Since we're talking about money... does anyone know if there are any relief efforts underway in EN for the hurricane victims, either corporately or on the part of local churches?

Prayers are so desperately needed too, for the areas hit and those areas that will be taking in refugees. I've found myself frustrated because I want to "do" so much, but besides donations really the only initial practical things I can "do" right now are pray and extend any love, care, and assistance I can to those refugees/evacuees that come across my path... which are more and more over the last couple of days. There will be more direct opportunities I'm sure though in the coming weeks and months, as access to the affected areas are opened back up. My local church gathered, fellowshipped and prayed in preparation of this last night. I want to do so much, but maybe right now what God is leading me to instead are the small, caring gestures I can offer to people coming into my workplace looking for assistance... to the people in line with me at Burger King who can't get fries, fish, onion rings, or much else besides Whoppers b/c they're out but are grateful they're in a place where they can at least get food and water... smile and encourage the lady behind the counter who's growing frustrated at the people who aren't so grateful... etc. I have a ton of clothes I can get together and donate as well.

John_R, if you're out there I'm praying for you and yours brother.

blessings,
ulyankee

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-02-2005, 12:21 AM

Thanks, cupa-- I'm running out of time to spend on this forum and you saved me some time by your response

japinoy--

I don't understand how the Scripture you quoted relates to economies based on the Bible. Help me on that one, please.

You asked: "Where in the Bible is this written"

Well, the history portion of my statement isn't in the Bible. The history of nations that adopted an economy based on the Bible came (mostly) after the Bible was written. I point you toward the histories of European and North American commerce and overlay them with the history of Biblical influence in these cultures. If you find an example from history that disagrees with my statement, let me know. But like I said, I haven't found one yet.

The other half of your question, cuppatea, above, does an admirable job addressing. I'll pile on one comment, though: to take a view different than "A Biblical economy will always be prosperous, and Christian compassion within that economy will always take care of the truly needy. The Bible guarantees it." is to say that, when a nation follows Biblical principles of economies, they become poorer, less prosperous, and the needy will not be taken care of as well as they were under a less Biblical economy. I do not think you mean to state those kinds of economic results from following the Bible, but your position on the matter does imply it and history demonstrates otherwise.

Another problem may be on how we define "prosperous", which is such a broad and relative term subject to divers interpretations.

brick--

You asked: "Where is Scripture that represents these statements?"

Throughout the Bible. IMO, it is quite basic, really. Perhaps Romans 14:23 is the most simplistic: "everything that does not come from faith is sin". Nothing good I have is mine but a gift from God--no skill, no talent, no idea. So if I sit down and study and learn a new skill, is it not God who has enabled me to do so and is He not entitled to my life? Whose skill is it? Is it mine because I worked diligently to develop it? Or God's, because He owns me? I argue that I am a steward only, not an owner, of my gifts and talents. I start with the supposition that all the sin in my life is my fault and that anything good that comes out of my life is a result of God's mercy and grace. Therefore, any skills, talents, strategies, etc that I develop are not mine, but His. Problems come when I take the life he has given me (for example, my skills, talents, finances) and use them contrary to His will. That's called sin. It's called not living by faith. Even the example of feeding the poor can be a sin if done out of selfish, sinful, faithless heart. It is a heart issue at its core, not actions, just like everything is before God.

Many other Scriptures come to mind, so I'll put one more: Psalm 144:1, "Praise be to the LORD my Rock, / who trains my hands for war, / my fingers for battle." Here, once again, we see God's hand at work in developing someone's skills. I could quote from the Bible on God giving divine strategies, eloquence of speech, etc. because it's all there.

The larger issue is that just because someone has or develops great talents, skills, abilities, strategies, etc, that in and of itself is neither good nor bad. It is God's judgment of our heart as we use and develop those talents, skills, etc. that reveals the true nature of our actions.

--SB

japinoy (japinoy)

09-02-2005, 12:41 AM

cupatea - Amen! I am in total agree with you. What you said is well based in the Scripture, and I believe you really have the discerment. But I hope you dont misundersand me. I dont intend to attack anybody, cause I think those people are just victims of these false gospel. I was once one of those victims. So I understand that there is no point of attacking the victims.

But I will rebuke any false doctrine that faces me with the Word of God. If I ever did attack someone, please forgive me. My intention is to attack the sin not the sinner.

2 Timothy 3:10-17
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra--what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

ginger1 - You miss the whole point of Christianity. PROSPERITY GOSPEL (PG)is a false gospel that is from the world(satan) and not of God. I really think you should deep research on it BIBLICALLY if you are one of those logical people before you say that PG is not the problem. Church is not business like SONY, TOYOTA, or Microsoft but it is a spiritual body of Christ that must be base purely in the Word of God and not in worldly ways. Because it is written....

2 Timothy 3:1-9
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

I pray this scripture makes sense to people in here. A christian who has Spiritual discernment can tell the difference of a False Gospel and a Christ Centered Gospel.

As for me and my house, I'm gonna serve the Lord! Not a false gospel.

Most of all, Prosperity Gospels are related with MorningStarInternational big time. This is one of their teachings. Give more money to church and pastors and God will give your money 10 times more. Many (but not all) business men loves this doctrine.

More links regarding PROSPERITY GOSPELS

http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/wilkerson.html

http://www.christianissues.com/wilkerson.html

http://www.webedelic.com/church/sacredt.htm

http://www.webedelic.com/church/wilkf.htm

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-02-2005, 01:27 AM

titus,

Our local church rents a space. I belong to a really small church now... a small church plant of only about 25 people. We do have plans in the works within the limits of what we can do as a small congregation, and in the meantime we are being encouraged to do what we can on an individual or small group basis. Some people are housing evacuees in their homes. I have family with me now who are staying here while my husband's dad is getting medical treatment, but as soon as they go home we'll have space as well. We do not have the size and resources to help out in the type of massive efforts that are needed now, but certainly later we'll be in a position to assist further when the area starts to open back up. Our sister church in NO is not accessible, but does have a center of sorts in a home on the northshore of NO with no electricity (other than generator) and I think no running water, but at least it's safe for those that are there, and they're accessible to others in the Baton Rouge area that were not as affected by the storm. As far as I know all but two of our congregants have been accounted for. Other churches we are affiliated with are coming forward with much offers of assistance, including teams, money, other resources, etc. and there is a formal relief effort underway. Our sister churches in the region are also small though compared to other churches in other congregations/networks in the NO area. In case anyone doesn't know, I'm no longer in EN and I'm referring to non-EN churches here.

I was wondering though if anyone knew if EN specifically had any plans for relief...?

I do notice that EN has a call for prayer on their website: http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?nc=8545&id=365

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-02-2005, 02:29 AM

2Co 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

thecymbrogi - The Bible didnt emphasized the middle class life of Jesus. What the bible emphasized is the poorness of Jesus Christ. Why? Because God doesnt wants us to be obsessed with the worldly things, but to seek the things that are Spiritual. Jesus was satisfied with the Spiritual things. God provides our bodily needs and Christians must be content with it and not lusting for more of those physical things. It is written...

1 Timothy 6:6-12
6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain F13 we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Do you really believe God needs your skills? I believe that God can use your human skills to represent the Spiritual like what He did in the Old Testament, but I know that He doesnt need it. Christians stands in a New Covenant. All He wants from His people is obedience, and hunger towards His Word. Because God delights in Obedience rather than Sacrifice.

When a person goes to heaven, does he brings his skills, talents, techniques, strategies with him? God wants from us are things that we will be able to bring with us when we meet Jesus Christ. It's not prosperity of this world. But Spiritual things that Christ gives us.

Acts17:24-31
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

I trully understand where you're standing at thecymbrogi. What you're saying makes points in a certain point of veiw. I use to believe exactly what you believe when I was in an ENI church for years since my teenage days. I was so obsessed in brushing my skills, techniques, talents, strategies thinking that it will please God. The more skilled I am, the more the pastors wanted to use me. So I invested more time and more money to improve those abilities. But I was all wrong. All I was pleasing was my pastor and congregation and not God.

God didnt need my skills, talents, techniques, strategies. God pulled me out from those things and brought me to where I could have a deeper personal relationship with Him. He is now using me fully in spreading the Gospel in Japan in a way I am least skilled at. God wanted me to wait upon Him more, to pray and trust and rely on Him more and not doing things on my own strength and ability. This is when my eyes was opened spiritually.

So I dont blame you if you dont understand me. But there are people out there who knows what I'm saying here. It's only Christ who can take the veil away.

Not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit of the Lord!

(Message edited by japinoy on September 01, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-02-2005, 02:49 AM

ulyankee- Our church is small too. I will be praying for you and people in the US who have suffered the hurricane.

I personally believe that God allowed this disaster to happen with for a reason. God is wakening up His people around the world to pray and seek Christ alone. God is showing us that the prosperity of this world, the strength and strategies of man can be destroyed easily.

i believe, more and more tragedy will come to nations, including this country Japan. More sufferings, more trials will face all men of all nations. But only those who is Christ centered will overcome those things not by might, not by power, but by the Spirit of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

I will be praying for you.

lc_20 (lc_20)

09-02-2005, 03:12 AM

"God is showing us that the prosperity of this world, the strength and strategies of man can be destroyed easily."

Japinoy, You got it wrong - this storm didn't hit the prosperous of the nation. From what I gather most of the people suffering and dying right now are the poor and sick. I don't think this has anything to do with God trying to teach anyone a lesson. It was just a bad storm where lots of people lost their homes and family members. I would guess that money is the last thing on peoples minds right now. Why would you want to believe that more tragedy is coming. I would rather believe that we have a loving Father who suffers with us as we navigate through this fallen world. I appreciate your prayers, but not your judgement on Gods "purpose" for the storm. Sometimes bad things happen to good people - even people that the Lord loves and prays for.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-02-2005, 03:45 AM

Trials comes to anybody at any time, anywhere in the World. Rich or poor. I believe you can agree with this right? I never said that God was punishing those people who is suffering now by the hurricane.

Trials comes so that Christians can be stronger in Christ. Am I right? What did Paul said when he faced severe trials? What do you think Peter was thinking during his crucifixion upsidedown?

Does God allows natural disasters that would costs lives of many people apart from His will? Or does everything happens in this world is in God's control?

Isnt it a fact that America and many other nations are busy building their worldly economy (Tower of Babel) while removing God in their nation?

"Why would you want to believe that more tragedy is coming. I would rather believe that we have a loving Father who suffers with us as we navigate through this fallen world."

This is the whole point which you dont get. According to the scripture, God's loves His people that He disciplines them (Not Judging).
Bad things really do happen to good people.

Hebrews 12: 4 - 29
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: 5 and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom [his] father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed good to them; but he for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of his holiness. 11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, [even the fruit] of righteousness. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands that hang down, and the palsied knees; 13 and make straight paths for your feet, that that which is lame be not turned out of the way, but rather be healed. 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest [there be] any man that falleth short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby the many be defiled; 16 lest [there be] any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright. 17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind [in his father,] though he sought is diligently with tears.

I believe I will face great tials in my life some of these days. Japan is due to a huge earthqueke anytime. If God allows anything like this to happen, I will remember His word so that my faith will not be shaken by the things sorounding me. I know it's not going to be easy, but I have to be ready and prepared in Spirit and in Truth.

The Jesus said that at the end times, there will be more tradegies, disasters, hardships, trials, persecutions. Jesus is not telling these things to judge us but to warn us so that we as Christians will be prepared in Word of God.

When trials comes to our lives, what we have to hold on to the most is the Word of God and not on our own understanding or feelings. Trials and tribulations dont just happen. According to the Bible, God can allow rain to fall, storms to cease, the sun to stop moving, and all other things. Everything is in His hands.

The question is, what are we going to do when these trials comes? Think that its just coinsidence? Or think that God allows these things and believe that He can make all good for those who loves Him? Its our choice brothers and sisters.

coppertree (coppertree)

09-02-2005, 04:47 AM

Hi All catching on math project- I agree with Japinoy, various troubles and much worse are coming and have come on earth before. In essnse, it is a silly and misleading gospel that tells us all is well , when this is not true. A simple reading of Revealtions , would tell us otherwise.}

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-02-2005, 05:33 AM

Japinoy, those ministry who preach the prosperity gospel are helping the poor, the sick,needy, building orphanages ,batterred women, building wells etc.

MSI/EN preach prosperity gospel BUT does not give back, they kept the money. I know I saw it while I was in this church. Now, I do not believe in the prosperity gospel , some do , thats their belief, I do not have problems with that, Its called personal preference.

Now to force your personal preference on some people I have issues with that. Thats a sign of control and legalism. ANd to ridicule people just because they are not on the same page with you. Because thats exactly How MSI/EN works here.

I remember there was a young man who died on a motorcycle accident, he used to be a member in this church (Phil Bonasso) And Phil Bonasso said its his fault, if he would have been in this church that would not have happened to him, you see that guy backsliden.
Now ask yourself what type of spirit that say that ? How about the people who ask Jesus when they saw a boy who was sick ? was that the boy's parents fault ? Jesus said no but its for the glory of God and healed the boy .
But do you know who said thats the boy's fault ? ITS THE PHARASEES ! Its that religious spirit! Who plays the blame game. I do not think that the hurricane is God's will .

There are certain things that is not in our control, AND THE LAST THING I want to do is play the blame game.

The young man who had an accident, thats beyond our control, the hurricane, or when children born blind.

Now certains things that are in our control, stealing, molesting girls, seducing girls battery, murder, etc. Those we can blame people.

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-02-2005, 05:45 AM

japinoy--

Yes, God does not need any of us. but he wants a relationship with us. And he wants us to partner with Him. That means more than just sitting there and praying "Thy will be done." It also means getting up and doing something (ref. James on faith/works). That something may mean learning a new skill (like becoming a physician, for example), or studying, or working hard. It doesn't mean La-Z-boy theology, however.

you stated: "I was so obsessed in brushing my skills, techniques, talents...."

And there you have the difference between what I am saying and what you were doing. You lived under a performance trap ("obsessed"), a works mentality. Thank God, he delivered you from that. But I am talking about something quite different, a partnership with God, in which our actions are guided by His HS in us and not us on our own strength trying to please him with our works. Maybe your experiences under the performance trap have not allowed you to yet see that, when properly submitted to Jesus, there is a place for working hard, building skills, sharing the Gospel, and simply living--all in the worship of your Savior.

lc--
thanks for your post. I agree with what you said. you know, sometimes people's posts read like a bad Chick track. Now where did I put that one about Mystery Babylon The Great?????

--SB

ps-- coppertree: "A simple reading of Revelations [sic]" Now THAT was funny! I've thought a lot of things about Revelation, but simple? What a delightful logical conundrum! hee-hee Thank you!!!!

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

09-02-2005, 06:25 AM

UL, were're ok power was restored yesterday after sitting in the dark for a couple of days. Please pray as I know you are for the folks especially in the superdome and the hospitals. I am trying to put together a place to feed folks in Denham Springs, LA.
John

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-02-2005, 06:26 AM

Thanks Titus !

When Jesus healed the boy and said its for the glory of God , That was Jesus example for us. When that hurricane hit, the church was supposed to set an example and go help those people. To give glory to HIM !

This is not about you Japinoy. Its not about what if the trial hit you. Its about HIM.

This is Not about blaming nor wagging your finger and saying this is a trial from God. And giving irrelevant scriptures.
now I am going to ask you, You heard about the hurricane what are you going to do about it ? Keep blaming america ? Or are you going to lift your sleeves and help ?}}

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-02-2005, 06:33 AM

One thing for sure though, I do not mind listening to those Prosperity Gospel preachers
because I know for sure they will lift up their sleeves and help and do God's work , In this hurricane.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-02-2005, 07:15 AM

Just wanna make things clear here.

"This is Not about blaming nor wagging your finger and saying this is a trial from God. And giving irrelevant scriptures.
now I am going to ask you, You heard about the hurricane what are you going to do about it ? Keep blaming america ? Or are you going to lift your sleeves and help ?}}"

ginger1- When you said this I hope you're doing what you said. Helping the people who's suffering by the hurricane. But I assume you're not if you have the time being online in the internet.

As for me, unfortunately I am over here in Japan. But if something like that happens here in Japan, ofcourse me and my church will help my country men. Not only helping them, but also give share them the Gospel that Christ's grace is sufficient in our weakness. Actually Im already helping those in severe trials by encouraging them to trust in Christ here in Japan.

And I agree with you that it's not about me but it's all about Jesus Christ. That is what I have been telling all the time!!! When trials and tragedy comes, we must not be focused on our selves, but focus on Christ! Agree?

And by the way, for those who misunderstand me, I kept on saying that the hurricane is NOT God's judgement. But I believe He allows those things to happen. I beleive that God is in control in everything, yes even the length of the lives of all men. Your life, my life is all in God's hands. God knew how many people would die during the hurricane. God could have stopped it if He wanted to. Tell me guys, why didnt God do anything to prevent it to happen?

Im sorry for those Christians who DOES NOT believe that God is in control in everything. I guess they have a small god. But my Jesus Christ is big! I beleive that through Him, this earth is created. If this earth is created through Christ, then He is in Control in every thing that is happening in this world! Praise the Lord!!!
That is why I dont lose my faith in Christ cause I know He can turn out all things good for those who love's Him!

Another thing I wanna clear up.... I am not blaming America's wickedness for the hurricane. Like what I said, trials happens to any people, even to good people, it happens to any nation, any time any where. But I beleive that God shows & reveals through trials, the things deeply hidden inside men's hearts.

Those who seeks money, when they face trials, they will fall together with their money. Those who find confidence in their ablitiy will fall when they face trials. Those who find happiness in this world will fall when they face trials.

But those who seeks the Word of God, when they face trials, they will overcome it and be victorious through Christ Jesus. Don't tell me you guys disagree with this?

Regarding the techniques, skills, strategies.... go ahead do as you wish. Let's see if you still have them with you when you face Jesus. As for me and my house, I will seek the things unseen which is Spiritual rather than the things of this world. Those are the things I could bring with me when I face my Lord and Saviour.

And also, I am not forcing anything to anybody. Like what I said before in my previous posts, I cannot blame anybody for not understanding what I'm trying to say. Only Christ can take away the veil remember?

Those who wants to follow prosperity gospel, please do as you please. Those who believes in improving their skills, do as you please. See Im not pushing my belief to anybody hehehe

Bottom line, the most important thing is seeking Christ above all, trusting & obeying His Words and denying our flesh and carrying our cross. I hope there is an agreement on this.

God bless ya all!

lc_20 (lc_20)

09-02-2005, 11:44 AM

"But those who seeks the Word of God, when they face trials, they will overcome it and be victorious through Christ Jesus. Don't tell me you guys disagree with this?"

Japinoy, Sometimes people don't overcome their trials. Sometimes, people die in floods or colapsing buildings. Sometime, even if they kept their eyes on Jesus their whole life, their trials can be so scary and devestating that it shakes their faith. My belief is that being an overcomer is about the Grace and Mercy of God not our own "seeking" ability. Beliving that will give Him all the glory and honor and it will stop the blame game. Think of those sitting on roof tops for days waiting for help as you post. Please try to be encouraging during their time of shaken faith. It is not a time to be suggesting that God allowed this so they learn a lesson. It's about compassion.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

09-02-2005, 12:16 PM

I laid in bed the other day, Monday to be exact, and listened to the wind roar outside. The roar was from wind shear as the eye of the hurricane 40 miles east passed by. As the eye progressed northward the wind damage increased and the sound, much less the wind shook our home. I spoke with an airline pilot friend and said it sounded like pushing the throttle quadrant up to the wall on an airliner at takeoff to describe the sensation. I laid there helpless and tired I imagined the disciples storm tossed frightened and knowingly concerned about their immediate future. Being fishermen they knew their peril was real, Jesus napped on a cushion nearby. These sailors got in His face and roused a snoozing Messiah with the vocabulary of seamen frightened "Don't you give a damn? We're gonna die!" to paraphrase. Jesus stood and rebuked the wind and turned to them and rebuked them for their lack of faith. Now could if be a lack of faith in regard for the calming of the sea? I don't think so scooter. "Who is this that even the waves and wind obey him?" They'd never seen Jesus perform a miracle of that magnitude, they didn't know who He really was. It was that they doubted that they mattered to Jesus and in turn the Father. Their fearful cries were heard, that they came to know apart from any utile function in God's kingdom that they indeed mattered happened over the miles of their journey with Jesus. Our whiz-bang in the clutch spirituality will fly before the wind at times and leave us scrambling about without much decorum. Jesus wasn't put off by their fear, in fact I think it was expected they were in a boat together. The disciples couldn't run away they were stuck with Jesus and He them.
John

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-02-2005, 12:51 PM

John_R... it's so good to hear from you!

blessings,
ulyankee

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

09-02-2005, 01:09 PM

Thanks!
when I saw the old lady riding a bicycle fly by I knew we were in deep poo-poo.
John

actually (actually)

09-02-2005, 01:26 PM

Hi John
It's good to know that you are doing well even in the midst of this destruction. Thanks for sharing that testimony, it's amazing how God even uses the dark and frightening times to reveal Himself to us! Will continue to pray for you and N.O. in general.
God Bless

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

09-02-2005, 02:29 PM

Thanks Actually,
a steady stream of helos have passed over of all kinds. I would ask for your prayers for the folks in N.O. they are desperate. I am trying to put together a way of feeding some folks here. The radio station in KY. that I worked for is sending two trailer loads of relief supplies here Sunday. I'm thakful fo ryour prayers, encouragement and kind words.
John

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-02-2005, 03:18 PM

Japinoy, WOW what a judgemental spirit ! Yes, WE are doing something, Our church is asking people to give an extra offering. And my Pastor is trying to contact the christians Over there. Asking what can we do. Since I do not have any relatives over there. The best way to help is to contact your local church. Apparently thats not what you are doing. OR the local RED CROSS. You are on the internet , go look it up, some do received help by finances thru your credit cards.
You do not have to be there to help! Same thing with the Tsunami, I do not have to be there to help.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-02-2005, 03:32 PM

john_r, my prayers are with you and your efforts. The 25,000 refugees going to Houston is all over the news, but what is not so publicized is that there are an estimated 100,000 evacuees in Baton Rouge. Pretty much every city in the region is hosting evacuees & refugees. Also many of the colleges/universities in the region have offered to take in evacuee/refugee students. Some are themselves homeless or even orphaned, and school is all they have. I got criticized yesterday after expending some extra time & effort to help out one of these displaced families (NOT by my boss, his boss, or anyone associated with my office, though). Criticized or not, I would (and hopefully will) do it again!

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 02, 2005)

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

09-02-2005, 10:54 PM

ginger1 said "Our church is asking people to give an extra offering"

I just wanted to point out the obvious--there is sacrifice in doing God's work. In this case, ginger's church is sacrificing using their money (a sore topic on this forum recently). Others are there on the ground (such as one of our church members who is an MP called into active duty to N.O.), and some of you are providing relief to those who were displaced. It is wonderful, but not surprising to me, to see how many Americans are there helping, doing what they can to help such a mass of hurting people. Thank you to all of those people, and to the members of the Body of Christ for being used by God!

coppertree (coppertree)

09-03-2005, 12:15 AM

Hi all still catching up, and waiting for a Fema call to do building inspections for me there; although this is much different. My call well maybe weeks as yet away.. this is a big distrubance on all of our ways of doing things. I feel that , this is happening all over, has been said here, by Japinoy so well. It is like in the word when the tower fell and killed people, Jesus spoke about that... I pray , my dear friends down there, Christians and world class musicians are defending their own famlies against violence; with a hand that used to make wonderful Godly praise... I think that this is only the begining of troubles. As now our unused school buildings make way for the homeless displaced persons. We should and will cling to Him, at all times, in our lack and fullness, and thank Him for His grace.}

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-03-2005, 01:38 AM

We should and will cling to Him, at all times, in our lack and fullness, and thank Him for His grace.

Amen, coppertree... My husband just called after his first day back to work after all this. He flew over Plaquemines parish, which is where Katrina first made landfall (it's the tip of the "boot" that sticks out into the Gulf of Mexico). He had even just stayed there for a few days last week, in the community where the oil spill now in the news is. He says it is like a nuclear bomb went off, and absolutely no aid. He snapped at me on the phone, he was so upset. He doesn't see how people survived... but survived they did because people from there are now making their way to New Orleans and as little as they have, NO's mayor said they will share what they have with them, and hopefully they too will be allowed to make it out to shelters where there is more assistance. I can't imagine how they got there... I think there's only one road from there to NO and I don't even know if it's passable... did they walk?

And then I think about some of the statements that have been made in this forum about "this isn't a hospital church." I hope after this I never hear that statement, never again.

Isn't this one of the main things we as a church (I mean generally, as in all Christians) are called to do, to help and serve the needy?

I lack NOTHING in the Lord. NOTHING. I'm not rich, but I have a roof over my head, food, clothing, a job, and so, so much more... I praised and thanked Him every day before... may I mean it more now, and more generously share more of what He has so generously given me.

Many are stepping in, and many more will. Here people are offering not just the short term necessities of life but also housing and jobs. The local TV station publicly invited evacuees to stay in our local community if they so choose and I'm sure many will take up that offer. Maybe there will be some that might not be, er, the most safe people to have in your community, but I trust that the vast majority are not that way.

The beginning of troubles or not, my understanding is that we are to run the race to the very end. The Lord is my hope, my strength, my salvation, my provider and my shield.

thecymbrogi, I'm glad and encouraged to hear that there are those in your church who are involved in the effort. You too coppertree, when you are called in to assist FEMA, may the Lord protect and strengthen you, and may the Holy Spirit shine through you as a lamp on a stand or a light upon a hill.

blessings,
ulyankee

coppertree (coppertree)

09-03-2005, 02:34 AM

Hi Thank you Ul and John so much for letting us know ; that you are ok and functioning. I think back , not so long ago about you both talking with annie about crawdads, shrimp and other stuff and wonderful things, and how quickly a storm from Fl came to haunt us all. My... I am so glad that we know Him. We are grateful and humble at the same time, our fate is in His Hands.}

(Message edited by coppertree on September 02, 2005)

lc_20 (lc_20)

09-03-2005, 02:56 AM

"when I saw the old lady riding a bicycle fly by I knew we were in deep poo-poo."

John_r, I was just rereading posts here and praying for all that is going on. I thought I would send a note saying that I am also very glad you are safe, strong and hanging on to your sense of humor. Once on Christmas eve, we had a really bad ice storm and a tree broke and came through my roof. My neighbor came over to see if I was ok and then he said... I guess God didn't want you to have a christmas without a christmas tree... It still makes me laugh. I pray that while you are fighting to feed the hungry and help the homeless, you can continue to find the little humorous moments that help lighten the load.

Ulyankee, I am praying for you too. Your comment about hospital churches touched my heart. You are truly a caring loving person. It is amazing that your community is being so open to the people. I am sure they will be a blessing once they get their feet back under them.

(Message edited by lc 20 on September 02, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-03-2005, 04:25 AM

In God's eyes, physical death is not a sign of a true failure. But Spiritual death is the ultimite failure in a person's trial. Paul and other disciples wasnt afraid to die for Christ during their trials. Yes, many saints died for Christ through their trials. I dont beleive they are failures. All people who are in Christ will never ever face failure even they they face death. It is written....

Philippians 1:21-26
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.

Amen to this!

ginger1- It's your own choice to think if I have a judgemental spirit or not. But realize that what you're doing yourself is judging me. If youre doing what you're saying then Praise the Lord for God using people like you! As long as the things done are biblical and all the Glory goes to Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour, then I have nothing against you at all!!

coppertree- I thank God that there are still people who understands the meanning of carrying your cross and denying the flesh. Many churches had fled away from the Cross of Christ and have moved into a positive, feel good gospel. But Jesus promised suffering to those who will follow Him in this world because there is great reward in the real life. Like someone had mentioned, Christians are in the world but not of the world. Amen to this.

God is Omniscient and Omnipotent. God knows and in control of every living life in this earth. He decides who will live long and who will live short. He decides how we live, how we will leave this earth. There is nothing out of His will that happens.

Im sorry for those who doesnt understand the meanning of seeking Christ Jesus above all. I guess its because they dont believe in it? Or probably they have a different god? Or they're just not living a bible centered life but living with their own opinion? I dont know. What I know is what is written in the Word and that is what I will believe. It is written in the Scriptures...

De 4:29 - But from there, you will search for the Lord your God, and you will find [Him] when you seek Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Ps 63:1 - God, You are my God; I eagerly seek You.I thirst for You;my body faints for You in a land that is dry, desolate, and without water.

Ic_ - In the Bible (OT&NT), God used many Storms and many other Tragedies even many lives of men were lost just to teach all people His Word.
Im sure you already know that the Bible you and I are reading is NOT a book written through imaginations in an comfortable airconditioned room like HarryPotter books making money.
The number of lives suffered, persecuted, lost, sacrificed used by God to complete the bible is cannot be counted! Not to mention the numbers of natural disaster God used. God is the same God yesterday, today and tomorrow. As much as God still perform miracles today, He still gives us trials to learn so we can mature in Spirit. The best thing we can do to others who's going through trials, is ofcourse helping is important, but the more important is sharing the Word of God that can give them Hope, Peace, Joy, and Love. The Word of God is the Light in the darkness.

1 Peter 4:12-19
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. F26 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

People can say what they want to say. If its not according the Word of God, then I will not listen to it. But when they say things that is according to the Scripture, then I listen and dont say anything against it. But if it's not from the bible, I dont have an ear to listen. Cause many people have different standards, but there is only one Spirit and one God. I chose Jesus Christ!

Again, Im not pushing my own opinion. I dont blame those who doesnt understand. It is only through Jesus Christ that the veil is taken.

I'm attaching a link that is related to whats happening to the US now written by a Baptist . I am in totall agree with it. If anyone is interested.

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1348994.html

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1348437.html

(Message edited by japinoy on September 02, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-03-2005, 06:10 AM

Japinoy = One scripture. Faith without WORKS is Useless. What are you going to do about the hurricane, you can quote scripture all you want. BUT what are you going to do about the hurricane ? those people need help. They do not need you quoting scriptures and preaching to them.

i like what my pastor said this week entitled God's confidence.
Man's confidence. Confidence is the feeling you have before you really understand the problem.
Until this hurricane hit you, then we'll see how strong of a christian you are.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-03-2005, 06:15 AM

One thing for sure, I won't be arrogant and say my faith won't be shaken when I see these hurricane and lost my loved ones. Right now, I am just thanking God that I am in a position that I may be able to help.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-03-2005, 06:53 AM

Acts 11:28-29
28One of them named (A)Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine (B)all over the world And this took place in the reign of (C)Claudius.

29And in the proportion that any of (D)the disciples had means, each of them determined to send a contribution for the relief of (E)the brethren living in Judea.

No preaching, no quoting of scriptures. JUST HELP.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

09-03-2005, 08:08 AM

I watched Bishop Hughes comfort a famous jazz singer from N.O. tonight sitting on the floor of a Baton Rouge television station. She related to him as we watched over his shoulder of the days of agony, and suffering this week brought. Her neighbors were too poor to leave the ninth ward of N.O. so they rode it out after being told to evacuate. Torrents poured through the walls of her home as rain and wind pounded mercilessly. In the aftermath she rounded up her neighbors who were in a hospice and others who were ill and indigent. National Guard helos flew overhead occasionally hovering over their rooftop perch and waving hello, but never stopping to evacuate them. Finally this woman began to walk through the flood waters stepping over bodies of babies and half eaten corpses the left from alligators prowling the flooded streets. She rolled two wheelchair bound women to the "Quarter" where it was rumored phones were operational. They were but no one could get through. She made several trips through these waters to lead her neighbors out to the "Quarter" on high ground. Men came along while she was in her neighborhood, returning to help others, they raped her and apparently killed and robbed others and moved on. She struggled back through the streets with her ragged band and came upon an RTD bus. She smashed the bus wiidow and loaded her charges aboard the bus and drove out of the city and eventually to safety. Bishop Hughes listened, held her and consoled her the irony of her tragedy inexplicable. Life isn't always didactic, it isn't cleansing, purifying, or equitable, our efforts to prove otherwise only reinforce our minuscule grasp of creation. I am not in a position to take issue with those who speak of lessons or meanings at a time like this I'm just not that smart, and not interested.

I paced the driveway of my home in my subdivision tonight, a cool breeze, bugs chirping and humming, still and quiet, safe and cozy. Light spills across the yard from the dining room my kids are there with friends decompressing from the week. My daughter's boyfriend's father the chief physician at a massive triage facility setup in the L.S.U. field house treating thousands. After hours endlessly making life and death decisions he makes it to his son's campus apartment to collapse on the couch in exhaustion. Suffering done come-a-knockin' to the North American continent instantly elevating us to third-world status regionally. Interestingly Cajuns, Coon-asses in the local vernacular, are very resilient that I've seen first hand. Mud bug eaters make-do, thrive, and milk life out of adversity like no other place I've lived. There's no recriminations about why we were spared and starting thirty miles to our east and stretching for miles destruction, death and its stench are the rule of the day. They've shrugged their shoulders unphilosophically, grabbed a handful of tools, snacks, and friends and pitch-in to help total strangers. Something profound to be said for taking life as it comes and trusting the creator in simplicity to provide. Thirty miles from my desk is unspeakable suffering, we can't get in there if we wanted to. We can pray and care for the refugees and strengthen others to assume their role in assisting those in need. Dare to pray, face our humanness and it's limitations and embrace our Father who knowingly created us as we are.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on September 03, 2005)

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

09-03-2005, 09:27 AM

"I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count."

:Mayor nagin on WWL Radio

tattooedturners (tattooedturners)

09-05-2005, 09:31 AM

Hey everyone,

thanks for your prayers..after more than a decade of "service"..I finally saw the light. Praise God who is faithful as a true father and shepherd!

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

09-05-2005, 11:58 AM

What do you mean?

lc_20 (lc_20)

09-05-2005, 12:35 PM

Welcome back Tattooed. I remember your posts from earlier. I hope you are ok. God is good. It sounds like you went down the path very familiar to many of us. Please write more if you need encouragement. Peace and Joy to you.

coppertree (coppertree)

09-05-2005, 09:59 PM

Hi All and Welcome Tattooed. Your healing has begun.
It should be noted in many places, I hope cymbrogi, et all is looking on. Read the discourse between Stephen Mansfield defending EN and et all, with Bartholomew at his blog, " Bartholeow notes on region". I google that to find him. This shows that the facts are mistateed in S. Manifield open letter. He in my thoughts and opinion slanders the case before the court date;, and this from a mighty rsearcher and historical novelitst and writer. I will never look the same about what he , Mansfield calls facts. As he is in the town, these documents can be easliy found by him. What unkindness;, he says too about reform coming in En.}

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-05-2005, 11:05 PM

Here's the link Coppertree mentioned:

http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2005/09/01.html

Welcome (back) tattoed!

blessings,
ulyankee

lc_20 (lc_20)

09-05-2005, 11:50 PM

"I don’t have many friends..."

Sounds like the perfect target for the EN love bombing technique.

"It has been interesting for me to observe the movement as a newcomer….If you are willing, let me know how I can help you."

I find it interesting that as a newcomer, he has so many strong defensive opinions and feels so qualified in to help others understand something that is new to him. Sounds like he is not very open-minded about things new to him.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

09-06-2005, 01:29 AM

lc and all,

You can read the blog that started it all here:

http://www.mansfieldgroup.com/blog.php

The entry I'm referring to is dated 2/21/2005. You'll have to scroll down since the individual entries are not hyperlinked. You may find some of the other entries of interest too.

(also see http://www.mansfieldgroup.com/)

Stephen Mansfield is the best selling author of the Faith of George W. Bush (which I own and have read). His most current book is about the new Pope Benedict XVI. He also contributes to Charisma... the last article I read by him in Charisma was the cover article on Pope John Paul II after his death.

blessings,
ulyankee

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 01:41 AM

Faith without work is dead. Amen to this brother! The Word of God is really true!!

Like what I said ginger1, I am in agreement with you in helping people who are in need. I praise God that He gave you a strong burden to sacrifice yourself to help those in need from the Hurricane.

As much as God gave you a burden towards the US, God gave me a burden towards your fellow filipino who is spiritually suffering here in Japan. I have been helping people here in Japan when nobody else was helping them. I believe helping one another in time of needs is biblical. No disagreement with this.

Im glad that Jesus Christ told you to help those who are in need. But I dont believe that God told you to not to preach the gospel to those who are in need. This post is not the only place where I bring up the Word of God. In real life, here in Japan, where there is a spiritual famine, this is where I preach the gospel to filipinoes.

Im a japanese who has strong burden for the filipinoes over here in Japan. Cause few japanese cares about the filipinoes here in my country.

Many filipina prostitutes, working in night clubs bars are being transformed by the Word of God, touched by the HolySpirit and repenting from their sin. Many filipino laborers who has suffered from being a Gambling addict has been transformed by the Word of God. One of our filipino brother who is suffering from brain cancer is finding hope and peace in the Word of God. I visited a filipina sister who was suffering and was said to be dying by the doctor many times in the hospital. I preached the Word of God to her. She recieved hope, faith, strength by the Word of God and is miraculously healed now! She came to church last sunday in tears shouting praises and worship towards JESUS CHRIST!!!

Ro 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Paul said there is power in the Gospel. I hope you believe so. Our human help towards those in need can provide temporary relief to their physical pain. But it will never give them inner peace, it will never give them spiritual hope, it will never give them salvation.

Again, helping one another is very important because it is meeting peoples physical needs. That is what I do here in Japan cause other japanese dont care much for your fellow men people here in Japan.

But meeting their physical needs is not enough because it is only temporary. Many people are hungry for Spiritual needs. Helping peoples spiritual needs is very important. Their testimony of God transforming their lives by the Word is my greatest reward.

I am pastoring a filipino church here for free of charge. I even pay for the equipments we needed from my own pocket. But that is my offering to the Lord! He had rewarded me with souls praising Jesus.

You know what ginger, it is much more a blessing in the Spirit seeing people thanking and praising Jesus Christ than having them thanking me. It's only could be done by the Word of God. That is why we have to preach the Word in season and out of season.

There are many other religion, cult groups like mormons, jehovaswitness etc. out there helping people in their needs by now. But what makes a difference between them and Christian is that if we have the Word of Jesus Christ with them or not. It is written...

2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at* His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Click on the link for a correct interpretation

http://www.biblestudytools.net/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=2ti&chapter=4&verse=2

ginger1- do you really believe that people dont need the power that is in the Gospel of Christ?

Remember, anybody can help. you dont have to be a christian to help. Non-christians, worldly people, gays, drug addicts can provide help. Even cults, false religion, budhism can provide physical help.

But only Spiritual Christians who has a deep relationship with Christ, whos living a biblically centered life are the ONLY ones that can provide the Spiritual needs which is the Word of God through the power of the HolySpirit.
Let us not take light of the preaching of the Word of God in seasons and out of seasons.

Ro 10:12 - 18
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."

(Message edited by japinoy on September 05, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 03:10 AM

ginger1 wrote: "One thing for sure, I won't be arrogant and say my faith won't be shaken when I see these hurricane and lost my loved ones. Right now, I am just thanking God that I am in a position that I may be able to help."

The Word of God says....

Ac 2:25 -
For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.

1 Thessalonians 3:1-5
1 Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, 2 and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3 that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. 4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2 Corinthians 4:8-18
8 We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed-- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Paul is not shaken no matter how hard the trials face him. i bet it was tough. Paul has lost many brothers in Christ though trials. But he is not shaken even facing death itself. Why? Because his faith is standing on Solid Rock which is the Word of Christ that no storms can shake it.

But unfortunately according to ginger1 understanding, Paul is arrogant aswell for writing 2 Corinthians 4:8-18....??

We ought to base our faith in the Scriptures and not on our own understanding. Let's put our life in the Word of God because it is the truth. Man's understanding and words is a LIE. Let's not beleive in what man say. But only in the Scriptures let us listen. We are obligated to test if the scriptures interpreted by man are done correctly because many people uses the scriptures out of context. This is what ENI was good at so that they can control people.

ginger1, you took Acts11:28-29 out of context because you only bring out one or two verse and interpret it with your own understanding. Read what Paul said in Ro 10:12 - 18 so you will understand more.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=ac&chapter=11&verse=29

(Message edited by japinoy on September 05, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 03:37 AM

ginger1- Just to let you know, it is not you I'm agaist at, but what you say.

If you say things that are according to the Word ofGod, I will agree with you regarding who you are.

But if what you say is found no where in the Bible, or if it's taken out of context, woe to me if I dont correct it with the Word of God.

Our own understanding apart from the Word of God has no Spiritual power, there no Spiritual authority in itself. The ultimite authority is only found in Christ. That is how Great our God is!

Only in the Living Word of God there is power, there is authority and there is Truth. And Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God that was sent.

So when you say something to me, make sure it is from the Bible, and it's interpreted correctly. That is when there will be a true unity in Spirit and in Truth. (If this is what you're lookin for)

But if argueing is your purpose, let me know. I will back off because arguement means nothing. Only the Word of our living God is the most important thing above all. In His Word, there is real life.

(Message edited by japinoy on September 05, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 04:20 AM

Japinoy, I don't know how long have you been walking with God. But I remember Peter have promised Jesus that he would not deny Him until the very moment, he ws confronted. Its easy for you quote scriptures right now if you are not facing anything. No trials nothing.

Acts 11:28-29 was not out of context. It shows when famine came, ALL these christians went out to help NO preaching, no quoting of scriptures, NO Condemning the nation, like you did.

let me post it just in case you deny what you said.
By the way thecymbrogi, is your country the USA? If so, then you are blinded and don't see that your country's moral is much worse than ever! Worse than Japan which a non-christian country.

It is America that has allowed gay marriage!
It is America that took off prayer from schools and prohibits children from praying & reading the bible in schools! What are the Prosperity Churches doing over there? Too busy making profits and twisting the gospel for their own prosperity and making church bigger and more acceptable to the world! LAODECIA church!

Anyway, I strongly believe Paul cans say all those things because of what he went thru. Thats the only time you can say it.
Paul also said it for an example for us, We have to study his whole life to get to that conclusion why he said it.

I have seen so many christians who would quote those scriptures of faith when there is no trials and once trials hit, they are gone.
Now I do not know if you have been hit by a major trial other than getting caught with your girlfriend and having a fight with your former pastor because you do not agree with the prosperity gospel.

A major trial is being lock up for several years just because your a christians , being beaten for several years, condemned by families and relatives, scorned because of being a christian.
Things like that. How about being attack by demons non stop for several years. Because those do happen to christians.

There is a prayer that you can pray, how about this prayer if you are up for a challenge.

"Dear Jesus, Judge me Lord severely so I can serve you Perfectly"

Then do post how you holding up.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 04:27 AM

By the way Japinoy, The devil DO NOT NEED PERMISSION FROM GOD to attacked anybody, Once in a while if God is protecting somebody , Yes, the devil need some permission. Other than that, NO, The devil does not need permission to attack anybody. The devil's work is to Steal , Kill and Destroy.
If the devil ask Permission from God to steal from you then it wont be stealing. He got permission.
Its a wrong belief to say that the Devil needed permission from God all the time , its NOT even scriptural.
Did the Devil ask permission from God the Father to attacked Jesus while He was in the Boat ? No. NOT SCRIPTURAL.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 04:39 AM

I am very weary of people who Quote so many scriptures. Paul said he is the pharasee of the pharasee, he knows scriptures, he grew up memorizing scriptures , he knew them by heart.

And this amazes me,is he said this ... For the letter KILLS but the Spirit Gives Life !

The bible (letter) can kill you. Only the Holy Spirit can gives Life to what you preach.

yes I do believe the Word of God have Power But just because anybody can quote it does not mean that it has Life in it.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 04:59 AM

I was already warned by couple of preachers , to watch out for people who quote too many scriptures. And you quote too many scriptures. Also
Unfortunately I do not sense any Life of God in all your quoting of scriptures. The Letter Kills but the Spirit gives Life. Cupatea is already weary of it too.
Just wondering Japinoy, do you tell your congregation that they are not to listen to Prosperity gospel preachers ? Or do you let them discern and decide ? you know thats what the gift of discernment for thats written in the bible. Do you tell them to listen only to you and Grow up only by what you preach ? Just wondering.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 05:26 AM

ginger1- Again, nothing what you said is from the Scriptures but from your own mind.

It is more scary for people who gives their opinion outside the Word of God. ENI was good at this.

But you are right about something, we will never know how are faith towards Christ is untill we face big trials. It applies to both of us and therefor I agree with you.

But one thing I know for sure, if Paul through the HolySpirit and the Word of God can overcome trials, then we Christians can do it as well.

One question ginger1, do you love me in Christ?

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 05:29 AM

thecymbrogi
Therefore, any skills, talents, strategies, etc that I develop are not mine, but His. Problems come when I take the life he has given me (for example, my skills, talents, finances) and use them contrary to His will.

One scripture
Exodus 31:3-6
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship. 6 Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you:

God can anoint you with anything, it does not necessary needs to be the spiritual gifts. he can anoint you whatever your occupation right now. Like an example from above.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 05:29 AM

By the way ginger1, if you're going to listen to your prosperity gospel preachers to watch out for people who quote too many scriptures, then you should watch out for Jesus Christ. He quoted a lot of scriptures more than I do especially when he was rebuking satan. hehehe

By the way, it's not my fault if you're dont feel life in the Scriptures I give. The pharisees never felt life in the Scriptures Jesus gave to them. But the more the Pharisees argued with Jesus because they were carnal and blind.

It all depends on the Spirit of Christ working in your life or not and not the person quoting it. But the truth is the truth. But I dont blame you if you dont understand what Im trying to say. Only Christ can take away the veil.

What I said about America is the Truth. If it's all a lie, then let God judge me. Many Spiritual pastors in the US who love's God tells the same thing I've said about America. Did you thought I was the only one? Bringing up the fact is not condemning. Matter of fact, Jesus himself brought the fact about the Pharisees in front of them in Matt 23. Was Jesus condeming the Pharisees in Matt 23?

http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+23:13&version=csb&context=1&s howtools=1 (http://www.biblestudytools.net/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=mt+23:13&version=csb&context=1&s howtools=1)

God bless you brother and lean not on your own understanding. I love you in Christ!

(Message edited by japinoy on September 06, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 05:34 AM

Jesus explains scriptures. And explains it what it meant.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 05:36 AM

Jesus explain what it is written.

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 05:44 AM

Japinoy,
Satan knows scriptures too. And can quote scriptures. When he took Jesus up the hill and said "it is written throw yourself down...." And the Pharasees who memorizes scriptures...

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 05:48 AM

Yeah you're right. satan quotes scriptures and twists it so he can back it up with his own understanding, like the prosperity gospel preachers.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 05:56 AM

"Did the Devil ask permission from God the Father to attacked Jesus while He was in the Boat ? No. NOT SCRIPTURAL."

Prove to me that what you said is true in the Scriptures. But atleast you agree now that it was the devil who sent the storm to attack Jesus in the boat. hehehe

God is Omnipotent and Omnicient. Dont forget that brother!

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 06:00 AM

show me in the scripture that God the Father gave the devil permission to attacked Jesus. As I said its not scriptural.Its not there.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 06:02 AM

Im asking you to show me ginger1. You told me I quote too much scripture and now you want me to quote more? You're not making any sense. =)

(Message edited by japinoy on September 06, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 06:11 AM

Japinoy, its easy to condemn america for gay marriages, abortions, taking prayers out of school. You also have to understand, as christian living in this country, There are a lot of christians doing everything they can to reverse this.
Also as a japanese , your own country has abortions , a lot of gays, or effeminate men and your own schools does not even has prayers to start with ! So before pointing out things about this country look at your own first. What do you do with abortions in your country ? Or did you even try to put prayers in schools ?

Check the log of your own eye first before checking your brother's eye.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 06:18 AM

Who sold Jesus to the Pharisee's for 30 pieces of silver? Jesus allowed satan to come into Judas and sell Jesus to the Pharisees even He already knew it before it happened to fulfill the prophecy.

God is Omniscient. God could have stopped Judas, but did He or did God allowed Judas? If God didnt allow Judas to attack Jesus, would you think Judas was able to sell Jesus for 30 silvers?

Satan cannot do anything to God's people unless God's permits it. God could stop any natural disasters that comes in this earth if He wanted to. Because He is omniscient and Omnipotent.

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 06:44 AM

Oh yeah ginger1 you're right about Japan. First of all, Japan was never a Christian country, it's a budhist and Shinto religion country. And yet they dont have a law that shuts Christian out from praying in school.

I never said Japan is a good country infact it's a ungodly country. I remember writing that America is worse than a country(japan)who never believed in Jesus. It has far more higher crimes than Japan. A Christian country America having more religious cults than Japan. Japan suppose to be worse cuz it never knew Jesus. People never had parents telling them the Word of God. But reality is different. It is the church in the US that started the false gospel called Prosperity Gospel and is now spreading towards many nations.

According to the data of goverment, Christians here in Japan is less than 1% of the population. That includes the catholic, Jehovahs witness, mormons etc. How many Christians are there in the US compared to japan?

This country needed help from the US to recieve the Gospel of Christ 60 years ago after WWII. That is how most protestant came in. We still need spiritual help from a Christian country like the US. But whats happening now is that US has become worse than Japan. Instead of sending missionaries to spread the pure Gospel, they come here spreading the Prosperity Gospel and false jesus to make money! Many japanese are decieved by those false prophets because they were never a christian country and know less about the truth.

So to answer you back, I am aware of the log of my own country before I looked at America.

What can I do? Just pray for this Nation that God's grace may fall upon it and preach the Gospel and bring more people to Christ AS I QUOTE THE GOSPEL because it is the only truth that has the Power for Salvation of men through the HolySpirit.

http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Pl/Cnst/Arrest.htm

My the Love of Christ be with you.

(Message edited by japinoy on September 06, 2005)

japinoy (japinoy)

09-06-2005, 07:04 AM

Anyway, this is going way far from it's original topic.

I believe you are a loving Christian who love's Jesus Christ more than anything right? If you claim to be the Christian you say you are, then I can believe that you love me in Christ right?

If so, let's stop what were doing and let's just pray for each other and allow the HolySpirit to reveal His truth. (unless you love arguements)

God bless you ginger1 and may Christ guide you with His Word and Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Japinoy

ginger1 (ginger1)

09-06-2005, 02:11 PM

Omniscient Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
Knowing does not mean permission. This statement is unscriptural.
Satan cannot do anything to God's people unless God's permits it
I do believed once in a while the devil has to get permission but NOT all the time.
Because its a demonic statement ,I have seen christian people Blame God for the bad things to happen to them, because "God permit it". To tell small children trying to understand bad things happening in their life because "God permits it". I do not think so.

I do not believed in the prosperity gospel preachers as I stated before. And I do not have deep hatred against them like you have.
When your former pastor charge too much on VLI, you need to just let it go.
I am no fan of VLI either mind you, the ones being taught here in america are mostly junk according to a friend of mine who taught VLI in the philippines. But also VLI has changed their curriculum. So I do not know how much it has changed.

Give the people their freedom to grow up and learn to discern things on their own. Thats how Christ guide us in Spirit and His Word. There is liberty in Christ.

and yea I agree on stopping on all arguments.