Off Topic Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans

[dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)]

In thinking about the aftermath of the Hurricane and what is happening in New Orleans a scripture came to mind. Matthew 24:12 "because of lawlessness is increased most people's love will grow cold". This specifically came to mind in regard to what is happening right now.


I know that I have had to turn off the news because I was getting sick to my stomach about what was going on. On the web I'm seeing comments about "how can that happen here" or "the thin veneer of civilization is coming off". In connection with that I was calling Deacons in my church to ask about sending $2,500 out of our Church's check balance of $12,500 to help. One pointed how gas prices are going up and that might affect our offerings so we better watch our church check book until we get more padding in our account balance. (Note the other guys said Yes, that is a good start and we'll see if we can do more.)


I think that a spirit of fear is hitting our country. I believe on top of the bloody summer in Iraq that the disaster in New Orleans and the jump of gas prices by over a $1.00 per gallon since spring will combine to make people fearful. Their love for one another will grow cold as they think, "how is this going to affect me?" "I have to take care of myself first" "I have to pad my checking account and hold on to what I have instead of meeting the needs of others."


I think we need to encourage one another. Not just on this board but in our real lives. We need to encourage one another to have faith. Not a gross, selfish faith but genuine faith about how Isaac sowed in a time of drought and reaped a hundred fold. How as we tithe God will rebuke the devourer. How not even a sparrow falls to ground without Him noticing and we are worth many sparrows. How He will meet all of our needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus. How nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.


Basically in the face of this fearful world our reaction should be more faith, more hope and more love. But especially more love.


Humbly submitted by your brother in Christ,

Dawson

A friend pointed out that Katrina means purity. I think this is a chance and a time for the church to cast off our materialism and other bondages and show the pure love of Jesus.

(Message edited by dawson_lewis on September 02, 2005)

[japinoy (japinoy)]

Amen to this brother!!!! I praise the Lord that there are people like you who can see what God is speaking to people through trials.

I am praying for those people who's suffering by the hurricane.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

Our information age society has an abject fear of that which escapes our capacity for rationale. Politicoes, under the self-imposed neccessity to pontificate, baffle us with univolved doublespeak. Our country-day-school idealogues cluck their tongues at the feral behavior of the hoi-poloi. Somehow the human condition has a denomination of survival which may bring an equivalence to us all.

A church which is aloof imperils the culture it is charged to care for and ultimately itself. As we scrounged about in the dark this week in suffocating heat and humidity my theology mattered only in that I had a sense of being welcomed to what the rest of the world faces daily. Jugement cuts both ways, those who imagine it befalls those under duress for some shortcoming, those who scorn those the well off in envy, each have a theology of retribution by the almighty scorekeeper.

Interesting to me is Jesus' use of the heretic Samaratin as an example of the Father's heart toward those who perish. He lauded the one who cared, who stopped, who soothed the wounds of one ambushed on the roadside. Jesus has a way of overturning our orthodoxy and other conventions of comfort which hold pre-eminence over our trust in Him. Our commerce, our trade in more acceptable sacrifice, of religious artifacts, fundamentally miscalculate a being introduced to us quite simply as a Father. Even today we misconstrue Jesus' commission to care and to serve-"As you do this to the least of these you do it unto me." Recently in Sunday school and angry red faced classmate rebuked my audacity for articulating Jesus' preference for the wrong side of the tracks folk who as he termed lacked in personal responsibility. Finally, I marvel at a Christian nation that indulges in verbose declaimations of jugement on the deserving New Orleanians whose debauched souls have earned wrath. Yet they'll gobble-up the cusine, the art and music inspired by a grand ole city that has a great heart, an open countenance, and cultural span of several centuries.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on September 02, 2005)

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

An Opportune Time! The Judgement of the Pure One! Will now open the doors for us to plant churches!:

Quote from EN site:

Dear Intercessors,We have a critical situation that needs your prayers in the American states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama right now. The governor of Louisiana has declared today as a Day of Prayer for the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina. She has asked her state and others around the world to call out to God for mercy. God bless you in your intercession!For those that have time or the desire, you can read below a few of my comments. If you want to keep in touch with me about this subject or you want to know about Every Nation news in this region, please email me.The last two days, I have led corporate prayer meetings for this situation and these are a few thoughts:1. We are following the pattern of 2 Chronicles 7:14 which is a promise from God that if we humble ourselves and pray and turn from our ways, that He will heal the land.2. In the book of Genesis, it is recorded that the waters flooded the earth but in Gen 8:1 it says, "But God remembered Noah....and the waters receded." 3. I heard many public officials are turning to one of Martin Luther’s famous psalms that helped him in times of deep turmoil. Check out Psalm 46 and pray it over these cities and regions.4. In America, we give hurricanes names. This hurricane before it even came into U.S. waters was named Katrina. The name Katrina means pure one. This large divesting storm hit the coastal regions of the Gulf of Mexico. This storm has reminded Americans once again how fragile life can be. Yet, we must not sit idly by and throw up our hands as if we can make no difference.Let me give you four quick prayer points: 1. First, I strongly encourage you lift a cry for mercy. Meet God's conditions and speak mercy over Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.2. Second, ask the Lord to give wisdom, knowledge and insight to the government officials, engineers and the rescue crews as they serve. Let faith and peace rest in their hearts as they lead others. Let the workers receive new strength, new power, new faith and joy in their service. 3. Thirdly, pray for those that are suffering and need comforting. We felt a supernatural ability to weep with those that are weeping! To cry for those that are hurting. 4. Fourth, lift a cry for laborers of the Gospel to be released and for God's servants to come forward. Always remember to intercede that souls would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth! Ask the Lord for creative ways that the church can serve and help. Pray for churches to be birthed during this opportune time. Please pray intensely for these hard-hit areas and the victims of this awful tragedy. Your brother in Christ,Bob Perry

Dear Intercessors,We have a critical situation that needs your prayers in the American states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama right now. The governor of Louisiana has declared today as a Day of Prayer for the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina. She has asked her state and others around the world to call out to God for mercy. God bless you in your intercession!For those that have time or the desire, you can read below a few of my comments. If you want to keep in touch with me about this subject or you want to know about Every Nation news in this region, please email me.The last two days, I have led corporate prayer meetings for this situation and these are a few thoughts:1. We are following the pattern of 2 Chronicles 7:14 which is a promise from God that if we humble ourselves and pray and turn from our ways, that He will heal the land.2. In the book of Genesis, it is recorded that the waters flooded the earth but in Gen 8:1 it says, "But God remembered Noah....and the waters receded." 3. I heard many public officials are turning to one of Martin Luther’s famous psalms that helped him in times of deep turmoil. Check out Psalm 46 and pray it over these cities and regions.4. In America, we give hurricanes names. This hurricane before it even came into U.S. waters was named Katrina. The name Katrina means pure one. This large divesting storm hit the coastal regions of the Gulf of Mexico. This storm has reminded Americans once again how fragile life can be. Yet, we must not sit idly by and throw up our hands as if we can make no difference.Let me give you four quick prayer points: 1. First, I strongly encourage you lift a cry for mercy. Meet God's conditions and speak mercy over Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.2. Second, ask the Lord to give wisdom, knowledge and insight to the government officials, engineers and the rescue crews as they serve. Let faith and peace rest in their hearts as they lead others. Let the workers receive new strength, new power, new faith and joy in their service. 3. Thirdly, pray for those that are suffering and need comforting. We felt a supernatural ability to weep with those that are weeping! To cry for those that are hurting. 4. Fourth, lift a cry for laborers of the Gospel to be released and for God's servants to come forward. Always remember to intercede that souls would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth! Ask the Lord for creative ways that the church can serve and help. Pray for churches to be birthed during this opportune time. Please pray intensely for these hard-hit areas and the victims of this awful tragedy. Your brother in Christ,Bob Perry

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Is thius what the Perry expedition to the South means about the Pure one?
http://evesapple.blogspot.com/2005/08/i-do-not-make-this-****-up.html

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

speakword,

This is not an endorsement of one church over another... I just provide this response from another charismatic church network as contrast...

http://xweb1.calvarychapel.com/php/ccmain/gulf_relief.php
http://65.60.87.109:8500/Gulf_Relief/view.cfm

The person I know who is helping to coordinate efforts on the NO side is a pastor whose own home is (was?) in one of the hardest hit areas of the city... I believe it was one of the areas flooded BEFORE the levees broke that we've heard so much about on the news.

blessings,
ulyankee

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

BTW speakword, there are already EN churches established in the areas affected by Katrina. That's not to say that more churches (in general, I don't mean just EN) couldn't be planted... but there are already EN churches there. I pray that everyone in those congregations escaped and are well. Gulfport in particular seems to have been very hard hit, and communications to southern MS has been worse than even to the greater New Orleans area.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

One other thing I wanted to add... I would be very, very, VERY surprised if my former local EN church wasn't doing anything. I offered that contrast on a corporate, public level, not necessarily on a local church level. It was not meant *at all* to reflect on any individual, local EN churches.

I pray that the leadership and congregants of the EN churches in Mandeville and Gulfport are all safe and accounted for, and that any other EN leaders and members in its sister churches who may be helping out in any way are also kept safe from harm.

blessings,
ulyankee

[upcase20 (upcase20)]

Thanks Dawson. Well said.

[dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)]

japinoy posted these two links:

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1348994.html

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1348437.html

I would add this one:
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/1349199.html

The writer brings up Job. When I was newbie Christian I heard a teaching on Job. It said that at the end of the day God's answer to Job consisted of asking Job, "Where were you when I..." I don't have good understanding of why this happened.

I have a hard time with Campolo's thesis that God really isn't omnipotent. And I don't think that quoting Romans 8:28 is “responsible for driving more people away from Christianity than all the arguments that atheistic philosophers could ever muster." I do think that quoting Romans 8:28 while in our hearts saying "but you really deserved this" has sent a multitude to hell.

I'm convinced more than ever before that we fundamentalist types use the phrase "the judgment of God" as a cheap cover to avoid thinking. We just blame the victim and never think about what part WE have played in releasing horrors.

I believe that Katrina was a message either from God or that He allowed in His omnipotence. I don't believe that it was only directed at the Gulf Coast that was just the delivery point.

It is a message to all of us to depend on God. Even more it is a message to the Church to rediscover the Father's call to mercy and grace.

======================
I feel like the above is so much hot air. But it’s the best I can do right now.

[japinoy (japinoy)]

Amen and I praise God that He isnt the author of evil! God is never the author of evil. He just allows satan to make it happen to test and swift His people's faith if they will remain in God or not, even in in the midst of hardship, tragedy, pain and suffering. Like what happened to Job. God didnt condemn Job, but tested Him because God loved him.


Job1:8-12

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil." 9 Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven't You placed a hedge around him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are spread out in the land. 11 But stretch out Your hand and strike everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face."12 "Very well," the Lord told Satan, "everything he owns is in your power. However, you must not lay a hand on Job [himself]." So Satan went out from the Lord's presence.


God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If He can test Job, He can allow satan to test (big or small tests) His people till now.

[japinoy (japinoy)]

dawson_lewis - Amen brother!!!! Total agreement with you! I havent read your posts while I was writing mine. God has confirmed His word.

Tragedies in life not God's judgement at all. God may not be doing it Himself, but satan cannot do anything unless God gives him persmission to do. That's how much God is in Control in everything.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

I'll tell ya, there are books in my living room shelf that scare hell out of me-Campolo is one. My nice tied-with-a-bow-on-top theology gets rattled by the likes of him, fortunately. "Messy Spirituality" by Michael Yaconelli, Richard Foster, Brian McLaren all stare out at me at night from those shelves leeringly. Brennan Manning has caused a quiver or two in my gizzard with his newest "The Importance of Being Foolish". Discernment is a fine thing, being dismissive, well I've indulged in that far more than I really want to admit to. Especially when faced by as Elliott states is "One who knows how to ask"-Jesus. Why just screw around with a hurricane if it's attention the Almighty wants? Sling a comet into the gulf or any other littany of dismal maladies? We fence with the Almighty over trust, Richard Foster wrote in an informal survey no church markees sported the moniker "trust" in their logo, though "faith" was as prevalent as the Golden Arches. Trust scurries around in the corners of our Christain existence dissembling our patina of confidence. What we place our trust in has an unerringly annoying way of evidencing it self like a mouse in the parlor while our mother-in-law has stopped by for tea. Trust-when misplaced subjects our being to quakes and quivers like jello under the seige of an inquisitive five year old.
John

[annelewis (annelewis)]

The scripture I turn to make sense of tragedy is Luke 13: 1 -5, in which Jesus comments on two tragedies, political violence wherein Pilate had some Jews executed, and a random disaster involving a collapsing tower.

The implication is that the culture at the time explained these things in the context of God’s judgment, which if I only had OT writings to understand God, I would too. It’s hard to read the Prophets and not feel that God is all about smiting.

In the scriptures below, Jesus explains these tragedies only in the context of repentance and salvation. No blame assigned to the victims, no sense that they were being punished personally for being worse sinners.

Of course, the implication here is that while they were no worse than the others, the others are no better than they. So the others (that would be us) can’t point fingers. Finger pointing, btw, is just a natural reaction to separate ourselves from something to give ourselves some assurance as to why it can’t happen to us.

Unfortunately, it can happen to us.

There is a redemptive aspect to all this, if we allow it. In the book of Hebrews, the author exhorts and encourages Christians who were about to give up. They had suffered hardship, even to the point of having their property seized. They were about to forsake their faith, mainly due to a lack of maturity and understanding of their salvation. The culminating chapter is Heb. 12, the chapter on how God disciplines us so we can share in His holiness.

Discipline is not punishment or judgment. God doesn’t allow children to die or women to be violently assaulted just so we can learn a lesson. But, their suffering does not have to be wasted. We can either lean into God, despite the fact that we don’t understand. We can allow it to break us from our self sufficiency and pride just as the man who looked at his full grain bins and thought all was well. We can look around in our own communities for those that are vulnerable and weak and what we can do there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood (A)Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2And Jesus said to them, "(B)Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4"Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in (C)Siloam fell and killed them were worse (D)culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

friends,

Right now I'm not going to question God's larger plan in/through Katrina. Maybe it will be revealed to me... I don't know. Maybe it really is judgment, but I can't think of that right now with hurting and displaced people almost literally in my backyard. I just hurt and grieve for them. I'm going to lay low here for a few days b/c regardless of the grand plan, I've been called as a follower of Christ Jesus and as a human being to love my neighbor... which has nothing to do with EN, my position on EN, or anyone else's. I pray and hope that all churches and individual Christians in a position to do so, do the right thing and help... not just EN but all. I believe there may be some things happening on a local/regional level which is very encouraging. The overall response here in my city has for the most part been absolutely wonderful.

Ministry doesn't always have to take the form of donations, volunteering at shelters, or rescuing individuals, important and needed as those things are. I have a coworker who is ex-military who is going in today with an armed crew put together by one of our local law enforcement agencies. My prayers are with him/them. He's trained to do that and has stepped in. But on the other hand, my inlaws, who pastor a small Pentecostal church out of state but are here visiting, "ministered" to people in the mall yesterday. I say ministered, but it was really just that they went shopping, and while there talked and listened to displaced people buying underwear and kids' clothing b/c they or theirs have nothing left. And my inlaws have their own worries and concerns b/c their visit is for medical reasons (my father in law is getting cancer treatment at MD Anderson), but still their concern is for others, not themselves.

And so many more of these gestures that are not public, not seen, but the Lord sees. I say all this not to brag on anyone but to show that there are so many ways in which we can minister in kindness and love to people. It doesn't always have to be the big hooplah, finding your "destiny" stuff. Sometimes it's simple, quiet, behind the scenes, one person to another... I don't have my Bible in front of me so excuse me if I'm misquoting this... "what you do unto the least of them you do unto Me."

blessings,
ulyankee

[dawson_lewis (dawson_lewis)]

John and Ulyankee,

I think one reason I grope for "answers" and "to see the plan" is that I feel guilty for not being affected. I have prayed and I have given. But yesterday as I was getting ready to eat dinner I literally thought how can I eat when so many are hungry. Of course I also have the luxury of being able to "turn off" the disaster.

I do respect Tony Campolo. He challenges us to rise above our middle-class, material centered Christianity.

As for "finding our destiny", I think the scriptures are pretty clear: love God, help the window and orphan in distress, help the poor, cry with those who cry, laugh with those who laugh, give love, give of ourselves.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Currently out local elementary school is asking for clothes and shoes donations for the kids of the hurricane victims. Check out your local schools and ask. I just went thru my kid's closet and have bagful of clothes. Throw out the ones that have holes or stains at least give these kids some dignity, give them some nice clothes to wear. Think of what would you want your kids to wear.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Regular Clothes that would not fit your kids anymore but are still good. There are some nice christmas clothes that has been wear only one time but won't fit your kids any longer, those are good. Shoes from christmas plays that worn once and wont fit your kids any longer. Things like that.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Also, many public schools in Louisiana require kids to wear uniforms... khakis and polos type stuff. So that would be appreciated as well since many school systems are taking in displaced students.

Also... those of you in cooler areas, if you're not long away from putting up summer clothes, those would be good too since it's really hot down here and will be for a while yet. Our leaves turn color (if you call yellow and brown turning color) in December!!!

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

If you're wanting to donate physical items though (clothes, etc.) make sure your local church and/or charity is set up to get them where they are needed. The Salvation Army and American Red Cross for example are not currently accepting clothing donations for hurricane relief nationally (they are in the region affected, but not nationally) but are accepting monetary donations.

If your city is hosting a shelter though, you may be able to donate directly to the shelter... I did so today.

If you either do not have access to a church, charity or relief agency that is taking in physical goods specifically for hurricane relief, you are not adjacent to the area affected and/or your area is not hosting a shelter, many agencies are saying instead that cash donations are most needed right now.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Check out nola.com. It is a NO web site. It is amazing how many people are offering their homes to people on this site. Pray that the people who lost their homes can get to this site and find a connection. Many are without electricity and still in that supperdome. They will need a miracle to see just how many people are trying to reach out to them.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

Dawson,
I'm glad to hear that, you may do so more than me. I was not offering a rejoinder to your previous post, just sharing my journey from Maranatha to here.
John

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

So ENC leaders are calling for an expansion in Louisiana, Mississippi and the Gulf Coast on the heels of Katrina? As if these states were not already deluged with water to sweep away the sexual corruption from the queer celebrations such as "Southern Decadence" and the annual Mardis Gras queer fest, now the New Order of the Latter Rain moves in an showers people with their ongoing spiritual rapes, financial looting, false prophecies, mind-control and brainwashing labeled "Discipleship/shepherding" or "Accountability" and the deification of those who claim the titles of "Apostles and Prophets."

I say, go for it!! Make shure that the stench of your heresies goes up into the nostrels of Almighty God! He is the defender of widows and orphans and that is EXACTLY the vehicle that ENC false leaders will use to lure their tricked "Joseph Company" (finacial businessmen) to funnel $$MILLIONS into the Maranatha/Morning Star Int'l-turned-ENC coffers. They will surely use the suffering that has now happened because of the decades of queers parading on the streets of New Orleans as a magnet to attract benevolent donors to financially shore up their crumbling New Kingdom Age sand castle.

And they will call it "reaching out to the homeless and downtrodden for the sake of the gospel" you just watch! This is exactly how Bob Weiner started Maranatha!! He used the theme and vehicle of the 1970's drug addicts to get halfway houses going and then stepped off to get an entire false denomination going. And to this day, they say they are "non-denominational" when there doctrines and objectives are clearly gnostic and hermentic once one pulls the sheets off their movement.

Adam Kadmon is their "Jesus" and their glory is their shame.

(Message edited by Bill Mack on September 03, 2005)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

EN already has churchs in Louisiana

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Ok, I said I was going to lay low, but I feel the need to share this...

This evening, my inlaws and I went out to eat to a fairly well known oyster house that has become a favorite eatery among our household. It's in a small shrimping/rice/cane/oil town about 10 or so miles south of where we live... pretty much the last town of any real size before you get to the Gulf. Anyway, about half way through our meal I noticed a lady on the other side of the restaurant wearing a yellow t-shirt which read on the back, "SCIENTOLOGY VOLUNTEER MINISTER."

Like many other neighboring towns and cities, this small town is also hosting evacuees, which is totally amazing to me b/c it's not a big place and doesn't have a lot of money and resources.

Anyway, the first thing I thought after, "Oh, no... not the SCIENTOLOGISTS!!!" was remembering Rice Broocks calling into Bethel World Outreach Center on speakerphone from Ground Zero after 9/11 saying that the Scientologists were the only other ones ministering there. Only thing is... that wasn't true. Though they probably were the only ones with bright yellow shirts loudly announcing their presence in the crowd...

Now, I'm not going to say that MSI/EN is the same as Scientology. But I did reflect as I left the yellow shirted woman behind in the restaurant that I would hate to see *any* group or even individuals take advantage of tragedy to promote a pre-existing and/or self-serving agenda. It happens all the time I know, but I pray that Christians in particular don't fall into that trap. I also pray that hurting people in their vulnerability are not led into a false "freedom" that becomes bondage, whether it's through one wearing a yellow t-shirt or one brandishing a cross.

Bill_Mack, my brother and friend, I have to say it's become even more important for me right now to give whatever help I can to the hurting, regardless of the reason God allowed Katrina to take place, be a light on a hill and a lamp on a stand, while bringing the good news of freedom in Jesus Christ while there is still time to do so. God has already judged the world; however, He also sent a Savior, His only begotten Son. Many live lives of sin, others think they know Him but really follow false gods or a false savior as we both well know and each in our own way have spent much time, resources and energy, and much more than that, in some ways down to our very lives, warning people against. But I believe the bottom line either way is that not all know Him, and that some who once knew Him may have fallen away from their first love. Some may choose to rename the Great Commission the "Apostolic Mandate" for whatever their reason or agenda... but regardless of semantics, Christians are to be the light to a lost and dying world, leading the lost to salvation in Him and Him ALONE. NOT Jesus plus "discipleship" equals salvation (something which I've unfortunately heard taught first hand), NOT in becoming "more" saved by becoming exactly like Jesus the "Pattern Son," but salvation in Jesus Christ... period.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 04, 2005)

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

Ulyankee,

I agree. This is time for Christians to be the Light on a Hill that Christ meant us to be, regardless of the false lights that shine the rays of a heretical spectrum.

I clearly remember when Bush first got in office years ago. One of the first smoke screens Bush did was to make big waves about a "Faith-Based Initiative". Remember that one?? The reason it was such a smoke screen is because the Feds came in and tore down the Indianapolis Baptist Temple. Rev. Greg Dixon was pastor.

Here's the entire story:
ftp://ftp.qcomp.net/ibt/Lighthouse091903latest.pdf

When the Feds did this, it was because they were scared that many more churches would unregister their churches and the pastors would no longer be shackled to apolitical sermons that are mandated when anyone files for 501(c)3 Tax exempt status with the IRS. Yes, you heard me right! I am clearly making the claim that pastors and churches do not have to be a 501(c)3 government register church. The U.S. Constitution, regardless of what Homeland Security thinks or does, guarantees no taxation on churches.

But if you register as a 501(c)3 church, you are under state jurisdiction and cannot speak against government corruption to the degree that one could if they weren't covenanted with Uncle Sam (whose leaders are Freemasons, so what's wrong with that picture?)

Back to Bush's Faith-Based Initiative: on the outside the purpose was to funnel funds to churches who in turn could more effectively mitigate disasters like Katrina. You witnessed the flaw in that Initiative when you saw some Scientology woman geared up toward AID for Katrina victims.

This is a rock-and-a-hard-place situation in that cults desperately want to appear as legitimate Christians so they ever-so-cleverly mimic good Christian deeds. The Rosicrucians and Freemasons have their hospitals for Children, but studies have proven that the majority of the monies given to these cults goes to the cults and not the "outward signs of righteousness" they set up.

I have pictures of Bush sitting down at his desk with an entire ecumenical cadre of leaders from the world's false religions drooling at the prospect of getting taxpayer money for needy families or Katrina-type disasters that surely will repeat themselves down the road.

The Christian response is to keep going and do what they are supposed to do regardless of the odds.

I suppose my comments were not timely and well-placed in light of the suffering, but God help me if I don't declare the righteousness of God in all His Divine aspects, unlike the registered 501(c)3 church leaders. The terrible swift sword of the Lord biblically does include directing the weather as a tool of judgment. The "Southern Decadence" queer fair was to start in just days, but Katrina struck!

My hope is that the healthy fear of Almighty God will be instilled in all of us because for government leaders to even THINK of legalizing queer marriages and licensing queer parades in any state surely will provoke God to judge any nation that condones this, either the government and church leaders or its citizens and congregants.

Yes, it is time to pitch in and let our lights shine by helping the Katrina situation. Maybe I would get my face slapped for bringing up judgment in the current situation with many people dying like they are.

I'm sick about the whole deal.
I'm sick that the Feds purposely dropped the ball (did you see the FEMA chief lie on TV about not knowing what was going on?)
I'm sick that cults like ENC will play on these disasters to entrap more victims.
I'm sick of $3.50/per gallon gasoline that has to go into cars whose mfgs. are forced to make inefficient because of Title 35 and "National Security" too.

The good news is that "an act of God" put a stop to the homos on Bourbon Street and Christians can now have a chance to show who they really are by acts of kindness and charity. That won't sit well with the Gay Blade people, but then they need to see God at work too.

I see this as just the beginning.

--Bill

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

The chasm of our conscience...
Hurricane images piped nonstop into our dens amplify the incongruity of our comfortable three bedroom existence and where those who suffer languish and perish. It compels me to prayer, to anguish before God, it causes me to cherish those within my reach. I'm in mind this morning of the second to the last supper as I term it in Bethany. The scene is set at Simon the leper's house-an outcast his furnishings meager most likely. Lepers were social persona-non-Gratia in the day scorned by the religious quarter much like others are in our day. Jesus ate there, fellow-shipped there with His friends, celebrating Lazarus' resurrection. A woman historians have somehow construed to be Mary of Magdala, but her identity is uncertain. Her worship of tearful thanks combined with the outpouring of expensive perfume made others uncomfortable-scornful. The expensive perfume could have been sold and its proceeds used for a variety of noble purposes including a more lavish banquet to honor Jesus. Instead thirty-eight thousand dollars worth of gratitude instantly filled the room with an aroma capturing the senses in the stark reality of Jesus' mission to die. Her offering unorthodox, awkward, naive, and unsettling was honest. It would be memorialized at Jesus' behest over their protests, quieted by a genuine dead-man walking Messiah.

Calamity has a way of defining us rather abruptly and clearly. For some we anguish over the plight of the fallen, the present has so clearly illuminated our beings with the pain of others we ache ourselves. For others our perspective is to mine the underpinnings of error that disposed the Almighty to chastise us insolent rubes for forgetting Him. Scripture records two instances where Jesus wept; over Lazarus at his tomb with His friends doubting Him, and over Jerusalem whom He'd desired to gather under His wing. A farmer once told of a barn fire that had raged in the night extinguished in the pre-dawn hours. As the grey of daybreak filtered through the hellish scene the farmer shuffled through the debris in dismay. He came upon a hen her wings spread, lying on the ground face down feathers charred from the heat. He sniffed and nudged her lifeless body with his toe, acrid smoke wafted through the space, the quiet dripping of water a metronome for the dirge in his head. He squatted down and caressed the old girl's corpse she'd given him breakfast on many a day. As he touched her muffled peeps rose from the hay beneath the hen. He prodded her body again from beneath her wings and body staggered a brood of chicks spared the deadly heat by the hens sacrifice. Jesus came here as the human face of God, He supremely illustrated how the Father's heart is disposed toward us by His grace. Tears shed for friend and foe alike compassion on the just, the unjust, the indifferent, the judgemental He gave us that which we could not give ourselves-His life.

My elaborations about the Kingdom, my castles in the air of baptised ambition, my suspicion of others gains an eternal perspective in the naivete of the woman at Simon's simple house in Bethany. The simplest in this case to me is the best. If you can write a check, write a check, deliver clothes or other goods do so, take some one in or help another who has taken someone in. Your prayers are essential our nation has a challenge like the civil war facing it. It will divide us in the days to come if we let it. A raft of Sunday Talk shows will treat us to expose`s on the incompetence which we all know exists in the response. To exploit that instead of focusing on matters at hand will be the temptation I fear.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on September 04, 2005)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

Bill - Your choice of words is making you sound like a bigot to me. Not impressed. You have no credibility as a chirstian in my mind as you post like this. No matter what the condition of the heart prior to this emergency, these are human beings. Why don't you try starting these christian "acts of kindness and charity" with your own words.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

Gandhi once said "I like Christ. I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are not like your Christ" I would offer the thought that we perhaps fall prey to our antagonism and in so doing loose sight of freeing the captives. In doing this we create outsiders-those whom we devour in the process of our grouping together are again the caranage created by another egoentric group. To be pugilistic in tone makes me wonder what the difference is over time between those we excoriate as abusive and us?
John

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

John_R, amen.

9/11 also affected all walks of life, in that they all worked in the World Trade Center. Now all walks of life are affected here, except they lived in defacto segregated neighborhoods. Katrina didn't discriminate, except that it seems the famous French Quarter seems to be largely intact, partially due to the fact it's one of the few parts of the city above sea level. But despite external appearances or economic disparity, the wheat grows with the tares, and the saints lived among the sinners. It will be like that until our Lord comes back.

I'm to love my neighbor. Heck, I'm to love my enemy.

Bill, I'm not here to slap your face, and it makes me sick too, b/c I know first hand that the ongoing, systemic governmental corruption and incompetence just in Louisiana alone (I'm not even going to deal with the Federal level) rendered our local authorities ill-prepared to deal with this, all the planning in the world aside, and this is far, far beyond any local or state authority's ability to deal with... I'm not saying that most as individuals didn't want to, not that their hearts don't go out, but the resources just aren't here, we're strapped to begin with, which makes me ill because what, 25% of our country's energy and shipping (in other words, our resources and riches, our country's economic engine) make it through here? My South African friends here, in a country also with so many natural resources and riches, can you relate? And where were and are these resources? Right now, as we speak, oil and shipping companies are continuing to survey the damage to their assets in Plaquemines Parish. Offshore helicopter pilots are flying above this area, with platform-bound passengers they would have normally picked up in Venice or Fourchon but now are picking up further inland, viewing the devastation on this spit of land that was already eroded away to nothing largely because of said oilfield and shipping activities and was where Katrina first hit. Mandatory evacuations aside, not everyone did or could get out, and they were lashed by 150 mi sustained winds and there are areas with little or nothing left. But can any one of these people be allowed to land, bring aid, bring water, bring comfort? Areas of this parish are as poor as anything you might see in Orleans, and worse yet they were already isolated. Just like not everyone could get out of Orleans, not everyone could get out of here either. And they are largely being left to their own devices.

There's also St. Bernard Parish, where people are still on rooftops, just across the river from New Orleans, where the Royal Canadian Mounties from western Canada managed to get here and help before our own authorities! (Geaux Canada!) People are just trying to make their way, on their own devices, to try to find help, away from the TV screen.

I could continue to get all righteously indignant but it would in essence accomplish nothing without something behind it. It would be as a clanging cymbal rather than LOVE spurred to action. Not faith plus works but a faith that drives me to do good works because the love in my heart for my neighbors, friends, and yes enemies won't let me do anything else. Is this not in at least a small way the love Jesus spoke of, and put into action on the cross? And I would hope that anyone who comes to help does so out of that same LOVE and not an agenda. But you know, those people still stuck there probably don't care what the personal agenda of the person offering the bottle of water or the guy driving the boat is.

I'm not a 501(c), not about to become one, and I have no agenda other than helping others. That's true in this forum, true on my various activities outside this forum, and I pray true in this case as well.

BTW, I'm not seeing a whole lot coming out of the larger New Apostolic Reformation regarding this tragedy, unlike the prophetic and apostolic declarations that followed 9/11. Nothing on GHM's website, nor Generals of Intercession, nor Ted Haggard's New Life church. You can sow a seed through Bill Hamon's Christian International Ministries to assist in their relief efforts of regional churches, though of equal concern seemed to be to get out the word the headquarters are ok and conferences will go on as scheduled.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 04, 2005)

[annelewis (annelewis)]

Ulyankee, thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate the updates. It makes me feel better to have specific people and things to pray about such as what you and John share rather than a generic "help them O Lord."

Please, please, please let us know if there is a specific need we can meet, even outside the realms of 501(c)3 tax deductions.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Maybe this is impossible for little old me, but I want to somehow find out if there is some way to specifically help people in Plaquemines and St. Bernard parishes since they seem to have been almost forgotten. There has been such a burden on my heart for Plaquemines though especially since my husband described the devastation the other day, saying that no aid had gotten in yet, and I know additionally through some of the parish specific bulletin boards on the www.nola.com (http://www.nola.com) website that little to no aid has gotten in especially in the lower part of the parish. One of my current pastors lives in St. Bernard parish (or I should instead say did... he got out) and maybe he knows. There's really no way for me to get in touch with him but there's an outside chance I may see him this evening. Also I think some areas in Mississippi might be in similar straits. So maybe people can pray that no one is forgotten, but that all that need it receive assistance?

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

My Sunday school classroom was interesting stacked with cots. All the Red Cross volunteers in the state are staying at our campus 300 or so. They are getting a hot meal each night and we are providing a breakfast like a muffin and fruit each morning. The management of this disaster is a C.F. in Marine vernacular! Pray for the feds., state, and local governments to get their heads out of their deriers. Some men in my class went down with their boats, evaded the road blocks and rescued folks in flooded areas. Dr.s, and nurses are needed here they are converting an empty K-Mart into a 1000 bed hospital. You can send checks to St. Vincent DePaul here in Baton Rouge and be certain of it getting used to help flood victims. Clothes sorted by size and type sent to the above charity would be efficiently distributed as well. The churches here are pulling together to support relief workers and aid the victims directly which is a heartening sign. Some of the men in my class are going to be cooking for three hundred so the Jambalaya pot will be going soon. I'm baking breakfast foods and freezing them to be used as needed. Our town has grown phenominally, no rental property is available, homes for sale are gone and people are offering to rent or buy for several times the appraised price. Gas lines are long. Wal-Mart's shelves are picked clean daily in the grocery department.
Whew!
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on September 04, 2005)

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

John_R,

Similar things on a slightly smaller scale here. Our campus is hosting emergency workers and our little regional airport is quickly becoming one of the regional air/helicopter hubs (though I've been to BR's airport and it's not much bigger!!!). I'm estimating that on Tuesday my work email box is going to be filled with desperate pleas from students wanting to enroll in our university, since it's one of the first points of contact for people wanting enrollment info in the first place, and Tulane waited until I think late Friday to announce that their semester was cancelled. I've been putting off the impulse to look since Friday PM, and probably will today anyway so I can let my boss and his boss know in advance... I'm not in a position to do anything about it but I can sure say what is going on. The conservative estimate is that 40,000 people will be here in my city, and we are less than 1/2 the size of Baton Rouge... so proportionally the same impact. And that is not even counting those staying with relatives, and as you know John_R these Cajuns are very family oriented! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Perhaps another idea is for a church or individuals to "adopt" a host city, whether it be Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Lake Charles, Alexandria, Shreveport, Houston, San Antonio, etc. etc. etc. and give to churches, charities or agencies providing support in that area. I would personally suggest one of the more immediate, smaller cities in the region like where John_R or I live, since those are the places that seem to be absorbing the most evacuees proportional to their size and the services they can provide. Baton Rouge in particular seems to be bearing **much** of the load since it's the closest operational city to New Orleans and just about all the state, local, Federal and volunteer efforts are based there.

John, I'm so glad to hear you guys were able to get in!

Here's one of our local agencies giving support directly to storm victims... www.unitedwayofacadiana.org (http://www.unitedwayofacadiana.org)

blessings,
ulyankee

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

ul,
Larry Tremblay is in my Sunday school class and we talked some about enrolement. E-mail me at johnrjo@bellsouth.net

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Just did... thanks!

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

My current church have partnered with Operation Blessing.
http://www.ob.org
And Salvation Army.

Efficiency
Over 99.2% of OBI’s spending goes toward humanitarian programs

MinistryWatch.Com ranks Operation Blessing International #2 (out of 451 charities) with its top 5-Star Financial Efficiency Rating.

Its one of a very rare few ministry that would give almost 100% of your donation to where it should go.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Titus,
Pat Robertson, Operation Blessing has open their books for the world to see. They showed it to MinistryWatch.com

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Jim Bakker was caught because he was afraid that Jimmy Swaggart was about to take over his ministry. So he turned over his ministry to Jerry Falwell who went thru his books and found out about the misuse of funds , It was falwell who called the feds on Jim Bakker.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

John R. and Ulyankee - thanking God you and your families are o.k.

Katrina "refugees" just starting to arrive here in Tenn. Most have lost everything. There's an outpouring of generosity being received with gratitude. Neighbors, churches, organizations, people all over raising funds, donating in-kind, helping one-on-one, ministering to the hurting.

We personally met about 20 people today that we were able to help. Our neighbors even hired a semi to take a truckload of supplies down to Waveland and Bay St. Louis, MS.

A U.S. Marshall told us yesterday, Sunday, that gas stations from Memphis, TN to NO are rationing fuel, only $10 allowed per car (about 3 gallons).

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Titus, this website is about Katrina hurricane. And people who need help. I will not try to convince people to donate finances to Operation Blessing, salvation army or where ever. It is just a suggestion. I will not argue with you about Jim bakker. These are all a waste of my time . Believe whatever you want to believe. Giver where ever God lead you to, as long as God lead you to.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Here are some more updates on sending specific support to where it is most needed and/or to areas that haven't gotten as much outside aid...

First, our local shelter here is in need of luggage, duffel bags, etc. John_R, perhaps you can update us on the situation in Baton Rouge, but here in southwest Louisiana many evacuees are connecting with family members and going to live with their families. Others are being "processed" here (I hate saying that, but that's the terminology being used) and going to other shelters. As a result, people need a way to carry their personal and/or donated belongings. My guess is that if our local shelter needs these items others will as well. If you want more info, write me offlist at ulyankee@yahoo.com.

Also, eastern St. Tammany (Slidell), St. Bernard, and Plaquemines parishes have not been getting as much outside assistance (and what aid has been coming in hasn't been as quickly) as other areas. Note that one of the EN churches affected is in St. Tammany parish. Plaquemines--the area first hit by Katrina--has gotten almost no outside assistance... my own heart is particularly burdened for this parish. Anyone who wants to donate aid specifically to these areas that have not gotten as much aid so far can do so if they so wish (posted by the office of their state senator, taken from the www.nola.com (http://www.nola.com) website):

<font color="ff0000">Thanks to everyone's supportive encouragement for the Senate District 1 Disaster Relief Fund. Here's the particulars many of you requested:
(1) All monetary donations are to be mailed to:Senate District 1 Disaster Relief FundAttn: Senator Walter J. BoassoP.O. Box 94183 Baton Rouge, LA 70804

(2) Louisiana businesses and citizens may send their goods &amp; equipment to the Port of Baton Rouge for continuous shipment of barges downriver to our region. For more info, please call Walter's temporary district office HQ in Baton Rouge at 225-342-2415 or e-mail us at boassow@legis.state.la.us

(3) For out-of-state businesses &amp; individuals who want to send their goods &amp; equipment to DIRECTLY benefit Plaquemines, St. Bernard and eastern St. Tammany parishes, you may send them to any of the 5 out-of-state locations of Boasso America Corp.:HOUSTON - 16230 Dezavala Rd., Channelview, TX 77530. Contact Connie Achee - 281-452-1140JACKSONVILLE - 1827 E. 30th Street S, Jacksonville, FL 32206. Contact Tracy Dunn - 904-475-0336CHARLESTON - 105 Braswell St., Charleston, SC 29405. Contact Mandy Buchanan - 843-534-2500CHICAGO - 700 East 120th St., Chicago, IL 60628. Contact Phyllis Guthrie - 773-821-4120DETROIT - 7650 Melville Ave., Detroit, MI 48209. Contact Liz Ferguson - 313-841-2927

Please spread the word about these donation options to your Louisiana and out-of-state friends and business contacts to help rebuild OUR region.</font>

Again, Baton Rouge is a city that has been PROFOUNDLY affected in many ways... Texas is all over the news for all the evacuees it is helping, which is wonderful, and many celebrities and politicians are visiting TX shelters to offer their support, but Louisiana cities are doing their part too. So I'm sure any donations given to Baton Rouge area charities/agencies/churches as John_R posted above, or those in other cities hosting evacuees, would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 06, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Ulyankee, you wil find this funny, I found out some of the top leaders here in california, does NOT EVEN KNOW THAT THERE IS MSI/EN in Lousiana, Alabama and Missisippi. So there is no donation set up.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

ginger-

I wouldn't worry about what people know or don't know about other churches in other parts of the US, just IMO. Since you mention it, though, our church is in CA and the leaders know about the churches in Louisiana. Personally, I was unaware until you said so that there are MSI/EN churches in AL and MS. Actually, I thought there were none. My wife is from down South in LA (Lower Alabama <grin>), just a few miles East of MS. I've been keeping my ear out for MSI/EN church plants down there for years; if you've found one, I'ld appreciate you passing it on. Between all the family and friends we have in MS and AL, it sure would interest me.

I continue to hear wonderful stories of compassion and about God's people helping the hurting in that part of the US. I love hearing stories of all that is going right admidst where so much has gone wrong. Various in-laws of mine are having families live with them, taking food, etc.. They and many others like them are being the hands and feet of Jesus.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

thecymbrogi , the first thing I expect is that MSI/EN would rally up and collect donations for those who are hurting especially for their own churches in Lousiana. This is what we do in the philippines, and there are more churches in the philippines. Even though the people are not aware of it, the First thing the philippine leaders would do is mention it. But to tell me that some of the leaders does not even know that they even exist , thats pretty bad and I do believe that Phil Bonasso do know about it and did nothing about it...
In the Philippines, even if we don't even need to have a church in one city that been struck by some type of calamity, those people would be there sending donation and help.
for MSI/EN California to do nothing for their own... thats pretty bad.

[thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)]

I know our church has set taking donations to aid the victims in place. However, if someone else's church decides to do it or not to do it, that should be something left to their local church leaders and laity to decide, not members of a different church. Our opinion of how/what another church decides to give is not that important. Our opinion is more important in our own church, where God has called and placed us. I don't see a place in Scripture for us to judge and criticize a church or an individual on convictions of this nature (i.e. whether or not to give to a disaster fund).

On my other question, do you know the names/locations of those MS/AL churches you are familiar with? I don't know where they are.

Thanks!!

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

thecymbrogi,

There are EN churches in Jennings, Lafayette and Mandeville LA, as well as in Gulfport MS.

The Mandeville and Gulfport churches were in the direct path of Katrina's destruction. The Mandeville church is very well established (I've been told it's approx 4000 weekend attendance), while the Gulfport church is I believe a relatively new church plant.

You can look them up in EN's church directory, if you are interested in possibly contacting them if you or your church are interested in assisting in efforts taking place on the part of and/or on behalf of the LA and MS churches:

http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?nc=8599&amp;id=377

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 07, 2005)

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

thecymbrogi , I do agree with what you post, BUT Phil Bonasso is one of the Mother Church. Other than Nashville. As a part of an Apostolic team, they should have been doing something.
And all MSI/EN churches gave their tithes to Los Angeles Ca. church. Some of those funds should be released. We criticized our goverment for being slow and yet one of the Mother church did nothing. Thats far worse.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

thecymbrogi , I forgot to mention also being a former member for ten years in Phil Bonasso's church, he never did any charitable work. I am just half surprised. I thought elevating him to being a CEO, Apostle would change his attitude or outlook in life. I guess Not.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

thecymbrogi and others,

You may also be interested in this letter posted on Church of the King's (Mandeville, LA) website:

http://www.churchofthekinginfo.com/

Also see this: http://www.prccompassion.org/

ENC is listed as endorsing this effort.

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

Well, with all these criticism against Phil Bonasso's church, I hope they do something. Or those tithes that was sent to them by those 3 churches would have been a waste.

thecymbrogi - if your church is collecting some donation , thats Great ! I applaud your church for that. I am guessing your church would either be Greg Wark or the Polus church in California.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

http://churches.everynation.org/default_churches.asp?id=485

[truthseeker180359 (truthseeker180359)]

If anyone is interested, there's an update on the www.everynation.org (http://www.everynation.org) website on what the Lafayette, Gulfport and Mandeville churches are doing there and a short video clip. Looks like they are standing squarely behind and working with the PRC Compassion network of churches.

[ulyankee1 (ulyankee1)]

truthseeker, yes, it looks like they're posting regular updates.

In case anyone is interested, here's more about the Pastor's Resource Council, which is a subsidiary of the Louisiana Family Forum and is affiliated with both the Family Research Council and Dr. James Dobson's Focus on the Family:

www.lafamilyforum.org (http://www.lafamilyforum.org)
www.frc.org (http://www.frc.org)
http://www.family.org/cforum/fpc/

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

One of the other organizations affiliated with PRC Compassion and the other organizations linked above is Intercessors for Louisiana (http://www.pray4govt.org). More recent prayer points re: Katrina and Rita refer to proclamations (http://www.pray4govt.org/Downloads/9-13-05%20Update%20%20Prayer%20Points.pdf) and prayers (http://www.pray4govt.org/Downloads/09-04-05%20Update%20&amp;%20Prayer%20Points.pdf) posted by New Apostolic Reformation (http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts1.htm) leaders including Dutch Sheets (http://www.erwm.com/IndeedApostles.htm) and Chuck Pierce (http://watch.pair.com/chuck-pierce.html).

This older newsletter (http://www.pray4govt.org/Downloads/06-05-04%20IFL%20Update%20%20Prayer%20Points.pdf) really stood out at me though (found it by accident), since it includes an extensive quote from C. Peter Wagner (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/arise.html) in which he supports open theism (http://www.carm.org/open.htm). It is possible that at least one EN leader (initials of LL) may also subscribe to teachings such as these.

BTW, I don't at all deny that PRC Compassion (and EN as part of this coalition) is doing some wonderful things in the region in response to Katrina &amp; Rita. But strange bedfellows, these.

I personally would have some issues in joining with an organization that appears to support the New Apostolic Reformation agenda or present something like open theism as a valid theological viewpoint. But then again, theological issues and EN's close affiliation with the NAR are among the main reasons why I'm no longer an EN member.

blessings,
ulyankee

[formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)]

Getting back to Dawson's original post, he said: "I think that a spirit of fear is hitting our country."

Our entire culture is built on fear. Sometime make a list of the various insurance coverages available, you know like fire, life, liability, etc. etc. and see how we are afraid of losing everything that surrounds us so we take out insurance. Maybe all of the insurance is not necessarily a bad thing but what does that teach us about who or what protects us?
After 9-11 fear obtained a stronghold in our gov't, which caused us not to just go after the terrorists in Afghanistan, but start that great mistake of a war in Iraq, where by conservative estimates we have killed over 10,000 innocent Iraqis. Do we consider ourselves safer today?

Some Christian ministries even encourage fear, where the reason to know God is because He will torture you for eternity if you don't, not because He is worthy to be loved because of His nature.
Jesus spoke to this in Matt. 6:25-34, that the worrying over possessions and safety will keep us from loving God with all our heart.
I will never forget the times of starting a new church, where we never had more money than what we needed for a few days, and we HAD to believe God for our food. Now that I have a little bit, I can honestly say I do not fear losing it all, because I know that He will provide.
Fear is still only conquered when we have have no fear of losing what we have accumulated.

If we desparately hold on to what is ours we become like the unjust steward. If we give in love, and act in love, we cannot be in fear, and God will provide for our needs.

[john_r_jones (john_r_jones)]

UlYankee,
thanks for the research on PRC, I've had a couple of conversations with friends in ministry quoting some of the folks listed above in conjuntion with the goings on down heah. I spoke with someone from a large Charismatic church in BR this week involved in this PRC group. The emphasis was on how large the ministry was growing and in the enormity of the influence had as a result from the phenominal growth. I mentioned that a friend of mine in ministry and I had spoken at length some time ago with his pastor about growth versus care for the people in his ministry. Uncanny how his dialogue was similar to that I've heard in the past complete with repeatedly quoting the ministry motto and how that was a panacea.

As to fear; Philip Yancey writes about how Christian nations which experience blessing become materialistic, yet third world nations whose Christian population has little are more spiritual. The Emerging Church culture seems poised to address this issue, I hope as they do that the bug-a-boos of that movement get ironed out before they too have some issues which overshadow their effectiveness. In the end I believe the American church must understand that our preoccupation with prophetic foreshadowing of our time is a poor relation to knowing God. That the understanding of the time in which we live calls us to know God, the nation of Israel in the time of Jesus' first comming had much in the way of scholarship-yet little in the way of knowing the Messiah. We face the same conundrum in our day as well that of much knowledge, little of knowing God. Richard Foster wrote a salient foreword for one of Brennan Manning's books about trust. Many churches surveyed had the word "Faith" in their titles, none had the word "Trust".
John

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

The emphasis was on how large the ministry was growing and in the enormity of the influence had as a result from the phenominal growth.

John, so the emphasis was on growth (recruitment?) rather than on the work PRC Compassion is doing? And on its influence? Was the context political/social influence, or Christian witness type influence?

I was going to add to my post a link to a letter that had been posted the PRC Compassion website that talked about using this as an opportunity to get more pastors to join with the group and ended by stating, "this is our leadership moment. Let's seize it!" It's since been edited.

I have nothing against church growth per se, particularly when it is God adding to the church. I would hope and pray that evacuees who do not yet know the Lord are led to the Lord. However, "church growth" is not one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and is not always a sign of a healthy ministry.

Thanks for your insight. I'd love to talk with you about the Emerging Church stuff at some point, but I'll leave that for another time and place...

blessings,
ulyankee