What Makes Maranatha Veterans Such Experts on Every Nation [Archive]

40days40years

06-29-2006, 09:50 AM

jay he is the Maranatha guy that went to South Africa and merged his tiny church into the movement which is His People. He is a big part of why His People is Every Nation. If I am wrong speak or phil please correct me.

Back to the original programming: How come there are so many ex Maranatha members around now to offer opinions and advice of the topic?

O.K speak my previous post was smart alecky but this place this topic about EN feels like it is my house! I was here before EN. A few months a go I was driving around looking at kids with their trowsers 3 sizes to big hanging off their hips and I thought I was around when your fashion was just stupid. The older you get the more you understand the old mindset I understand why an ancient demon has contempt for a human being who is 30 years old spouting off about what he does not know, what he has not seen. I see it here a little, no offense copper but the attitude was I was there you were not school boy. The people that created EN were the most Maranatha of Maranatha and now they are trying to tell the moderates and liberals here that they are not Maranatha!!!! It's a little bit of everything I just explained. A visceral bit of me and 84 and Mattie says, WTF??? No way you EN youngsters this is the story, this is your legacy sit on the nap rug, grab a cookie and listen to the old idiots tell you the way it really is and the way it really was. - thats the best I can do!

speakword2004

06-29-2006, 09:59 AM

Thank You, Sir!!

speakword2004

06-29-2006, 10:10 AM

My names not Phil or Earl. BTW serious question.

mdillon

06-29-2006, 11:52 AM

Never claimed to be an expert but thanks for the kudo. Why wouldn't we want to chime in since we know your boys.

md

speakword2004

06-29-2006, 11:57 AM

Your know our boys? Please specify so that people in EN who visit this website can learn and understand.

jayhernandez

06-29-2006, 12:02 PM

You guys really are something else. Take care guys I'm outta here.

God bless.

speakword2004

06-29-2006, 12:12 PM

Your know our boys? Please specify so that people in EN who visit this website can learn and understand.

lc_20

06-29-2006, 12:50 PM

Speak,
I have been asking myself that same question. Lately, I have found that most of the conversations aren't about the current affairs of EN. It is interesting to have the history. But, if there are no new posters with current experiences coming in, maybe we have outlasted our purpose here. EN is changing - or at least hiding their most visible cult leaders for now. So, only time will tell if these changes are lasting or another trick (like the name changes). In the mean time, maybe people aren't getting hurt in EN any more. Maybe the people still in there enjoy their version of christianity and discipleship and service to the leaders. Maybe it is time to live and let live.

matt_hatter

06-29-2006, 02:08 PM

lc said: "But, if there are no new posters with current experiences coming in, maybe we have outlasted our purpose here."

Just a point to consider: Maybe some of us new posters with past experiences need you too. Seriously.

Matt

maranatha1984

06-29-2006, 02:10 PM

"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the future controls the past"
From 1984 George Orwell

Rice and Phil and maybe even Steve would very much approve of this- that MCM has no relationship to EN. But this is NOT true. EN is a product of MCM, whether Steve likes it or not or whether Rice/Phil B will admit it.

A brief foray into my e-mail stash, now numbering over 100 different inquiries would disabuse us of any notion that EN does not continue to have problems.

IC Stay tuned...you will see that as I have said before Phil B Rice etc did not see the Monarchy as a bad thing they saw Bob as a bad king.

Also as Janja Lalich demonstrates the more dictatorial and abuse SC leaders are actually far less destructive in the long run.

As long as Phil Steve Rice Ron L etc control the "history" of EN they control the future.

BTW my puny little blog has gotten over 1,000 unique hits (by unique individuals). I do not imagine these are all ex MCMers...

Also as Phil R has stated the number of FACTNET EN hits are at a all time high- and I KNOW for a fact that there a NUMEROUS non posting lurkers...

jesusisawesome

06-29-2006, 02:19 PM

Case in point to what 84 just said (this from Ulyankee on another thread): "FYI - mediation is continuing. The EN representative requested that several links be removed from the Wiki entry, including this forum, the ReformationStation, Tik's blog, etc. The only one that has been removed so far is the timeline. I've requested that it be added back in. We'll see what happens."

There's a lot of attempted covering up going on. What do they have to fear from Tik's blog, etc., if they are in the right?

mdillon

06-29-2006, 02:27 PM

I can promise you Tik's blog is scaring the ever-loving hootah out of them.

84:"you will see that as I have said before Phil B Rice etc did not see the Monarchy as a bad thing they saw Bob as a bad king."

Being around the boys out west in the years 87-89 I can vouch for the 100% truth of that statement.

md

jesusisawesome

06-29-2006, 02:36 PM

To this day, there's still a lot of hurting people out there, which is very evident, and still much damage being done. 20-30 years down the road from all of this brings a lot of perspective, which Tik/Mdillon/Matt/Miltie/Sameo and others have. I remember after I left 14 years ago, it was very hard for me to see the ministry clearly. I loved these people so much. It was a struggle to differentiate between what was truly wrong and right, because the whole thinking mindset in the ministry was so warped, and as a result my thinking was warped. It took a while for me to be able to see clearly. And 14 years later, on this thread, my eyes were opened even more. I am very thankful to the "old timers".

dust

06-29-2006, 03:57 PM

Speak, I'm not sure I actually understood the question. Can you ask it again. My first thought was that the Holy Spirit guided them here. My second thought was do you think they are relevant?

Jay, please come back. We "value" your posts greatly.

JIA, you explained it so beautifully........

I can't explain this, but for my husband and I, Tik's book and Matt's presence have brought us an increased freedom...we have such joy because we are seeing God answer our prayers about this ministry, and it's been a confirmation for us.

We KNOW what's happening in EN. We lived it for five intense years. They helped put a piece of the puzzle together.

And I'm sure that one of you could mention someone else who impacted them greatly. That's what is wonderful about this board. I'm not trying to start a who's best thing okay? God doesn't work like that.

But I did want to mention one other person. Bill Mack.

Bill Mack needs to know we BOTH love him on this board....can't always track with him, but we're trying..... we truly love him and he is an MVP for us, and we consider him a brother.

Another question: Who is Maranatha...Who is EN...Who's both?

miltietoast

06-29-2006, 04:41 PM

Jay--BTW. Let this thread live! Great question

Multple personality disorder?(great question vs I'm out of here)

How come there are so many ex Maranatha members around now to offer opinions and advice of the topic?
They are probably on average 10-14 years older. Time whether we like it or not makes you a little wiser.
Couple of observations
leopards do not change spots
spirits good or bad do not change
like father like son
dna genetic dispositions
Unfortunately any changes taking placeat EN is probably of the corporate CYA variety

philiprosenthal

06-29-2006, 04:50 PM

Bill Bennot

I don't know if Bill Bennot had any role with the merger with EveryNation. What I can say about the merger is that Bill did not do well out of it, because he was marginalised and not incorporated into the EN hierachy until Paul Daniel got kicked out. He had been Vice President of His People.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21844.html?1150525020

Nevertheless, responding to the top question of this thread, I appreciate contributions by all types of people including ex-maranatha people. I think its like we are all putting bits of information into a big jigsaw puzzle. Nevertheless, I find it very irritating when certain people who have only seen a few pieces of that jigsaw puzzle become dogmatic and assume that the whole of EveryNation must match their experience - even more so when that experience was of another organisation from 20 years ago.

Philip

dust

06-29-2006, 06:09 PM

This may speak to someone....it did me.

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." F18 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another! Galatians 5

jesusisawesome

06-29-2006, 07:56 PM

Great scriptures Dust.

matt_hatter

06-29-2006, 08:39 PM

Phillip said: "Nevertheless, I find it very irritating when certain people..."

Phillip, I love you in the Lord brother, but you exhaust me.

Matt

coppertree

06-29-2006, 10:23 PM

Hi All catching up-math project,dear to my heart, and sat's.
I came here in shock that , in 2/05 I found out quite dramatically , those in Maranatha and now leaders of Msi/En had not repented, as they promised to do so. This apparently has yet to happen , as the beat goes on. We are commanded in the Word to contend for strong doctrine; so here I am. Hope, it works this time.}

dust

06-29-2006, 10:52 PM

JIA, thanks....I have to try to "live" what I am defending here; otherwise, for me, it's personal vendettas, and I'm not too foolish to know I can be tempted to swat the wrong fly.

mdillon

06-29-2006, 10:58 PM

thank you dust, good stuff

coppertree-"those in Maranatha and now leaders of Msi/En had not repented, as they promised to do so"

very strong point

md

mdillon

06-29-2006, 11:03 PM

thank you dust, good stuff

coppertree-"those in Maranatha and now leaders of Msi/En had not repented, as they promised to do so"

very strong point

md

coppertree

06-29-2006, 11:12 PM

Hi Matt -Thank you , in math ;it can be called an axiom. If it occurs enough times with the same result.}

(Message edited by coppertree on June 29, 2006)

maranatha1984

06-29-2006, 11:26 PM

Phil: have only seen a few pieces of that jigsaw puzzle become dogmatic and assume that the whole of EveryNation must match their experience - even more so when that experience was of another organisation from 20 years ago.
84: I agree Phil which is why on my Blog I say "Consider my experience, realize I am writing about 25+ years ago- compare it to your EN experience- mix put in oven bake at 300degrees F for two hours and taste the cake...

lc_20

06-30-2006, 01:11 AM

"Just a point to consider: Maybe some of us new posters with past experiences need you too. Seriously."

I hadn't considered this. I think part of the healing process is getting your voice back. Many leave maranatha/msi/en after having their sense of personal voice crushed. I don't really know how to explain this. But, there is something healing in knowing that you are being heard, believed and cared about after an experience like maranatha/msi/en. So, maybe we all have more in common here than just our past experiences. Maybe, with this site, we are all getting our strength and voices back together.

lc_20

06-30-2006, 01:35 AM

"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the future controls the past"
From 1984 George Orwell

Thanks for this 84. I think I am finally getting it. Several times, I listened to my pastor rewrite history from the pulpit. This was not a one time experience. Here is an example:

Pastor X tells pastor Y he wants to leave the church and go to another denomination. Pastor Y gets all upset. Pastor X and pastor Y are ready to break covenent over this - tempers flying. Pastor Z shows up from out of town and "disciples" the situation. Later, pastor Y tells the story (twisted by pastor Z) from the pulpit about how God told him to send pastor X to this new location and how pastor X is being faithful and will be back in a few years. Pastor X backs up pastor Z and Y in their lies because he just wants to leave with their blessing. Everyone on the inner circle knows the story told from the pulpit is not how it went down and that if God spoke to anyone here, he spoke to pastor X because pastor Y was completely surprised and upset by the news. But, no one says anything to pastor Y because he is annointed. Several years later, when pastor X never returns, the average members of the congregation are still wondering, what really happened to pastor X.

If you can show that these people are twisting the truth and rewriting history, I do believe that could be their downfall. They rely on new members being ignorant of their history so they can sell them their current "vision". Without this blind trust, they will fall apart.

Thanks for helping me understand why so many different generations of this mess are coming together here.

matt_hatter

06-30-2006, 01:57 AM

Eariler post:"Just a point to consider: Maybe some of us new posters with past experiences need you too. Seriously."

lc, your last few post just confirmed my statement. You don't know how good it does my heart when we logically draw our own conclusions and come up with thoughtful responses.

Oh, by the way, don't worry about the scars, y'all. They become beauty marks in the eyes of the Lord--(and to you too!)

Matt the farmer

40days40years

06-30-2006, 05:46 AM

Well ofcourse the present EN leaders who were Maranatha want to rewrite history. The fact that they are trying to do a Bob Weiner shows they are wrong and there was a lot of sin going on in at least attitude by these men who claimed years ago to break free from sins grasp. The Bolsheviks tried the same thing, rewrite history not to compare this groups sins to that horrible thing that happened amost 90 years a go.

Ohh that pesky internet. Just when Maranatha perfected the stone wall, make a few inconsequential acknowledgements about a few bad apples and past wrong doings and then shutting up for dear life. LOL Then along came a cyber spider that played by new rules. The new internet technolgy was just like the invention of artillery, reducing the stone wall strategy to rubble. Now their scrambling to find another way to convince us that the emperor has fine clothes.

speakword2004

06-30-2006, 07:17 AM

Thank you all for your well thought responses.

jayhernandez

06-30-2006, 09:07 AM

Dust, I didn't understand the question either. I was being serious when I said what I said thank you. Good to know my posts are valued. Someday it won't be though.

Matt, you said "Maybe some of us new posters with past experiences need you too. Seriously."

Jay: Ditto. I don't consider myself an ex-Maranatha member. In fact when I come here; I really don't care if you're Maranatha, EN or MSI or whatever other name they've changed themselves too. I come here because I am familiar with what they teach-be it 30 years ago or 2 months ago-I'm still familiar-pride is pride.

Those not familiar are those who are there or could whind up there. So, when I thought I was answering Speaks question (out of respect) I wanted to point too God the Father who I believe brings them here as well as every new poster like us.

No matter what position anyone here holds; even if they see EN as biblically sound with a few minor adjustments needed (I don't agree-I think they need a bunch of change)I still believe God has brought us all here.

miltie, you know I've gotta respond to this. First let me explain that my English/ grammer is bad. I know this. A look at my last name might help understand this. Not all of us are poorly educated in English. I just happen to be. I'm probably a little older then most think. It never occured to me that new posters are considered to be that young. If I was younger then I suppose I might have taken that for granted. But since I'm not; I understand the age doesn't matter. Unless of course someone else thinks it should. (BTW most of my well written post have credit to spell check. It's obviouse when I'm in hurry to post cause I don't take the extra time to cut and paste and spell check. I try to make time. This whole fragment thing has me a little confused still. Please bare with me.)

There was referance to age above by 40. I didn't think he was talking to me when he mentioned copper. After all he didn't know if or what I'd respond with at the start of this thread.

However after seeing how I did respond and then realizing he was being smart aleck . I knew then I'd mis-understood. I felt at that moment, and only for that moment, when I decided to check out for the night that my efforts had met something I wasn't comfortable with. Basically I was being serious when someone else wasn't. I like to play I just wasn't ready. Most of the time I do sit back and see where the conversation has come from so that this doesn't happen. I guess I tell you this because it seems that you found a cookie.

It was a good question but as you see he was being smart aleck.

jayhernandez

06-30-2006, 09:10 AM

Hey, I know I've been on your boy phil about those threads but its never really been about the amount. I've explained what it's been about. I hope I haven't stepped on anyone’s dick around here with calling him out on his obvious avoiding addressing questioned I was another one of a few to ask. If he is an old timer then its great but there is respect either way. I'm not going to bow down to anybody here though. Not even someone who thinks a new poster like needs to sit back earn our dues. I've can say the same thing in a few ways about some others who have been out of EN for years and years and sound like they're still •••••• off at the world. I don't dwell on it though. Young or old I'm just glad to be here because beyond all this noise you tried to bring there are those who can see what this is about. It's not about me or you. We are not the Truth. We can know the Truth.

About the personality disorder. Please be careful using that around here. Most people who suffer from cultic experiences walk around like they've had their finger in the light socket. This thought of disorder constantly keeps them in fear. I just know that I really am out- both physically, emotionally, spiritually and mentally (this comes from another post about Hotel Cali). You know this was probably a low blow. If you didn't then I'm telling you it can be.

jayhernandez

06-30-2006, 09:11 AM

Also, I know how hard it can be to be rude in speech and I know that I can be aware of it when I'm not. I'll be stern and then try to put a nice little ribbon on it (but sincerely so) that the reader knows I've either calmed down or that there is a way to bring it down some. Don't mistaken when I do this to be skitzo! The Apostle Paul brought it and served it as well. You don't suppose he to too lightly when Christians or those calling themselves brother where in the wrong?

I ask to be corrected. I encourage it. Even this day for the next.

BTW guys, I ain't (slang) ever gonna go to far away (for those who care). I might take a break here and there like I have before for different reasons but I'll make is back only because I know the "subliminals’". I'll make it back to speak to them directly. I won't be put under someone’s thumb with peer pressure-some know how I can say this with confidence-and I won't ever get to a point where I speak that ghetto trash just to fit in either. Just thought I'd mention it cause some of that peer pressure EN leadership IS IN FACT showing around here.

(remember we are the salt of this earth-I don't mind being remembered as such-in fact given the fact of where I am (here at factnet), I consider it to be "no walk in the park". I have considered the cost of doing this for the sake of the gospel. I assume most have. In fact some don't post cause it can get scary and then those you think you know will speak to you in riddles trying to see if you have real colors. Shame Shame. A least address someone directly if the point to be understood is to be understood by that person. I've made reference to someone else in the past but not directly to them as if like "the man behind the curtain". I also make general references to those whose shoes fit but never to cause division. Think of this...what kind of order can we have here. Not the "how many thread" type of order- the kind of order where we can discuss what happened at EN without having to deal with the kinds of issues I'm written about right now. I knew after I saw that comment to copper that if anyone doesn't know the regulars in here; then they are going to see those veterans who I think are of great value to the Body, but without given this place a second chance; they could walk away unanswered as ever. EN sure isn't going to answer them. Remember that. I say this to everyone.

I know I have friends here. I love you guys, and gals.

Jay the peacemaker (I use this because superman was already taken. Besides it helps remind me what I'm doing here-or trying to do here)

philiprosenthal

06-30-2006, 09:44 AM

I think the point made above by LC20 about rewriting history is so important, that it justifies a new thread. Please continue there.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22235.html

I also think that the point about 'personal voice being crushed' is really interesting - and helps me to understand and be more sensitive to why some people react to my attempts to keep discussion to categories.

jayhernandez

06-30-2006, 09:49 AM

I think I've spoken to some here that need to understand what has transpired here.

Jay

maranatha1984

06-30-2006, 12:19 PM

IC:Thanks for helping me understand why so many different generations of this mess are coming together here.

84: One of my first posts here back in March was " $%$&*%^()! I can't believe the guys are back at it again. With a twist on the same ole thing that I thought was dead,in the coffin with a stake in its heart. It must be like the guys who fight a war, storm the castle and go back to their peaceful lives...and wake up to find that the evil that they thought was DEAD is back at it.

I think this is what has stirred me. The actual Analogy is JRR Tolkien's the Simarillon- which is a history of the WAR against Suauron who was defeated. Then in Lord of the Rings we find out that the TWO TOWERS were not built by SAURON to protect MORDER and to act as GATEs for his armies, but had been built by the NUMERNOREANS to keep SAURON IN MORDOR...after his defeat in the Simarillion...but the Numenorians forgot, and fell asleep and the towers first fell into disrepair and later were taken over by Sauron's minions and it of course fell to two insignificant beings, hobitts to complete the task...

maranatha1984

06-30-2006, 12:22 PM

jesusisawesome

06-30-2006, 01:54 PM

IC: "Just a point to consider: Maybe some of us new posters with past experiences need you too. Seriously."

I hadn't considered this. I think part of the healing process is getting your voice back. Many leave maranatha/msi/en after having their sense of personal voice crushed. I don't really know how to explain this. But, there is something healing in knowing that you are being heard, believed and cared about after an experience like maranatha/msi/en. So, maybe we all have more in common here than just our past experiences. Maybe, with this site, we are all getting our strength and voices back together.

JIA: Wow, IC. Your comments really hit home for me. My posting has been to hopefully help others, and at the same time it has brought a tremendous amount of freedom for me. When I left there wasn't anyone to really talk about the experience with, that could really understand or relate, that has walked THROUGH what I had walked through. So for 14 years, I buried a lot of it. It is so freeing to be able to share with others that can relate to the experience.

ulyankee

06-30-2006, 02:03 PM

1984, I think this was the point and the goal, and intentional or not, very well orchestrated too. This was the whole reason why I started putting together the timeline, to find out what happened between 1990 when everyone went home thinking the battle was over, and 1994 when Morning Star International rose like a phoenix out of the rubble during the "Miracle in Manila." I think either Speakword or Philip R. characterized it as their creation myth. Anyway, that's part of the reason why the timeline is focused on the types of things it is... I started doing research to see what was going on between 1990 and 1994. What I found was as coppertree put it, an axiom, which is what led me to keep going. The only concept I learned in high school physics before I dropped the class to protect my GPA lol was about vectors, and that's what I see here.

It will be very interesting to see what happens at next month's World Conference, to see how it does or doesn't compare to the 1989 MCM World Conference.

I know you've made reference to the 1984 in your online handle... how significant was the 1984 MCM conference in your opinion (or others here)?

john_r_jones

06-30-2006, 02:42 PM

It was the beginning of the end.
John

mdillon

06-30-2006, 03:07 PM

john_r_jones

06-30-2006, 03:22 PM

Junaluska had a prophetic sense to it for me in my at the time sleep deprived recollection. What transpired afterwards was our fleshly attempts to bring to pass what the Father might have been seeking for us to allow Him to do by His spirit. By 1984 the west coast Maranatha guys had Manila under their belt and a heady sense of power. I say that with the exception of Steve Murrell who I felt had Manila put in his lap and he just served. I think Rice and the others along with the rest of Maranatha had never seen an outpouring like Manila. We did like many Charismatic ministries have done gotten our hands around it and took over "Thank you Holy Spirit we've got it from here". I went to the circus atmosphere-ed Brownsville outpouring in Pensacola and sensed the same thing humanism, the thing we railed against and pride.
John

P.S. I strongly amen MDs post UL!
John

miltietoast

06-30-2006, 03:43 PM

MDillon I’ve always considered 1980 Junaluska and 1984 Dallas as pivotal watershed moments in MCM history and our response to what God was doing in both indeed signaled the beginning of the end in 1984. Thank God is was.
Miltie-It was at the the Dallas MLTS that I told Missy Caulk that we were leaving Maranatha and Ann Arbor,MI Do not tell Leo or other ushers that Rae Ann and I actually skipped a meeting.It went unnoticed because Mike and Missy were getting crushed by BW. It was the the beginning of the end for Mike and Missy also.They took the hit and laid down on the grenade that was coming. I and and many other Ann Arborites owe them thanks for taking the bullet meant for us

Jay-Just did not understand your post-I thought you liked thread and then sounded offended and said I am out of here(which means in USA "you guys can stick it where the sun does not shine")
Please forgive me for harhness of response. I was wrong.

mdillon

06-30-2006, 03:45 PM

Jrj-“By 1984 the west coast Maranatha guys had Manila under their belt and a heady sense of power”

Along with the money/fame coming from the first influx of collegiate to pro athletes and the godawful “champ” moniker which when I first found these boards last year found it reprehensible that it is still being used. Ulyankee please make note in your timeline showing an unbroken link with “champ” going from circa 1983 to present.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif Steve Hall and I would call Phil “Chimp” just to see if he noticed. Good laugh.

Jrj- "Thank you Holy Spirit we've got it from here".

Reading Tik’s blog it has become ever so clear how we gutted ourselves because of our ambition and pride, zeal without wisdom, in our response in 1980 The Big Send Out. I agree with you about the prophetic nature of Junaluska and I shudder to think of the lineup of national ministers we had in the Dallas MLTS. That will tell you everything.

md

(Message edited by mdillon on June 30, 2006)

dust

06-30-2006, 04:36 PM

And through the "personal" stories, there is a theme, that may even minister to Christians who have never been a of EN/MSI or Maranatha. Hopefully, this is a board that is seeking TRUTH, not justice, seeking to live inside a PURE GOSPEL.

I have friends who are in EN (some are pastors) who were also from Maranatha. You cannot make a blanket statement about them; I've seen them "suffer" through the agony of hope lost in restoration or correction of the "vision." I've seen Maranatha/EN pastors separate out to their own ministries, searching out to do what God has individually called to do, yet cannot be completely separate from EN.

God showed me this week that "It's not black/white, but truth is crystal clear."

I've seen (firsthand) actual recordable action of top leaders (RIce, Steve) try to bring balance to the ministry, but can't. Why? I've asked God over and over to answer this question. They were either tremendous ACTORS or tremendously DECEIVED. I want to believe deceived.

The ministry is a BEAST and it was born at least 30 years ago, (but bill can fill in the blanks) and it can't be tamed, which is why I support RESTORATION of the INDIVIDUAL, but not of this ministry. It's impossible because you can't make a bull a horse. You can try, and you can ride that bull for a bit, but then it's still a bull. What I've seen over the last 30 years is that good horse riders are trying to ride bulls.

WHY is this ministry a BEAST?

maranatha1984

06-30-2006, 05:05 PM

Dust; AS my Dad Big Joe (a Korean way vet guy) like to say;

"You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Sh*t"

mdillon

06-30-2006, 05:40 PM

mattie aren't you going to tell tikkie that he just "shucked it to the cob"?

(Lord, I apologize for using that statement twice in one day, amen)

dust- your post is so strong I'm going to dwell on it for awhile. You have painted a very strong "crystal clear" picture and I agree with the heart of your statement that good folks (leaders) have been duped and imho goes all the way back to The Garden.

md

jesusisawesome

06-30-2006, 06:25 PM

Thanks Dust, WOW. Excellent posting.

Ulyankee's timeline is the skeleton and is extemely important, but personal stories are the flesh and blood that are wrapped around that skeleton. Without the personal stories, the lives that are being tampered with, you wouldn't need the skeleton, the timeline that reveals the continuing thread.

So what is the answer? How do you support the restoration of individuals, but not of the ministry? How do you separate the two, especially when people are walking in the deception and don't want to be separated? How do you remove the veil of deception? Anything is possible with God, but it is hard to see the path to get there. Is it just a matter of continued prayer, until the bucket tips and God brings the break-through? Is it a matter of prayer for leaders at the top to see?

ulyankee

06-30-2006, 06:26 PM

ulyankee it is my belief that the Timeline is the most singular powerful tool in what has transpired the last few years through these boards. Hundreds have posted their personal, some painful, some tragic testimonies and many of those who lurk here can write them (us) off calling us bitter, unforgiving, backbiting, gossip, etc.,etc. But above it all without prejudice, bias, emotion, slant, spin, interpretation, there stands the Timeline revealing “nothing but the facts, ma’am”.

md, this isn't the first I've heard this... it's quite humbling, and thank you for the encouragement. Though that would explain why EN would want to get the timeline removed from the Wikipedia links even more than those of this discussion forum and the blogs. It's also characterized on there as "hostile." Critical, yes, but not hostile.

Facts don't necessarily always reveal the truth as JIA so eloquently put, but they're a lot closer to it than spin.

JIA, I love what you just said. It makes a lot of sense. When the "skeleton" is a revised view of history, there's no context... what happens to individuals makes no sense, and can be considered isolated incidents. But when you include actual events as opposed to whitewashed ones, it makes sense. You see a person in front of you instead of individual, isolated body parts.

(Message edited by ulyankee on June 30, 2006)

john_r_jones

06-30-2006, 06:32 PM

I like my own saying "You can't make chicken soup from chicken poop".
John

john_r_jones

06-30-2006, 06:39 PM

Ironic to me UL is that in their PR responses to Maranatha they speak of all of the control and abuse with eerie clarity and yet seem myopic about their own issues. If this isn't being disingenuous then I'm an S.I. swimsuit model. (Dr. Frasier Craine, "Pardon me while I go poke my mind's eye out.") Though apparently I'd be ok at Harper's judging by their current cover with a fellow resident of my parish.
John

(Message edited by john r. jones on June 30, 2006)

ulyankee

06-30-2006, 08:05 PM

LOL!!! Nothing a little airbrushing can't fix, right?

john_r_jones

06-30-2006, 08:09 PM

Yeah take me to Earl Sheib!
T.B.

mdillon

06-30-2006, 09:59 PM

Dust and JIA

Thank you for your posts and your input on the importance of personal testimonies. Once again I did not mean to denigrate the power any personal story. Jia the flesh and bone analogy is perfect. The stories I’ve been a part of and listening to for years, but when I first perused Ulyankee’s timeline it was indeed a revelation of many things that had been clouded to me, so perhaps I’m speaking more out of my exuberance. The Timeline, indeed, is a massive skeleton that is too big for their closet.

Now, about the personal testimonies. Ultimately, when you stand back and look at it all, I really believe that the hand of God is so powerful and evident in the midst of all of this. There is healing, wisdom, recovery, hope, yes, and even a little reunion that I know many are receiving in the midst of our stories, tears, laughter, and chitter-chatter. Christ to me seems more evident amongst the broken and shattered than the perfect and polished. There is a powerful expression here of His working and your input has given me pause to reflect on that and I just wanted to say thanks.

md

coppertree

06-30-2006, 10:38 PM

Hi All, Yes I would say a second to much of these posts. I have said this before on fact net,as Matt said , I also have seen Him move here among us. It is quite humbling, too.
I agree about 1984, and our camp meeting in the Carolinas. Our group had a good chance to hear from Him; many people came in Love and The Spirit to us; yet we heard not well. Hopefully those reading here can now do their part.}

maranatha1984

06-30-2006, 11:28 PM

ULY:I know you've made reference to the 1984 in your online handle... how significant was the 1984 MCM conference in your opinion (or others here)?

84: I think 1980 in the Smokey Mountains is where the craziness really took off- where Bob W really begin to think or maybe saying publicly we will LITERALLY BRING HIS RULE ON EARTH with THESE people- not play a PART but lead it.

I was out by 84: I think 84 was the culmination of MCM and Bob's efforts to BE someone (WJS articles, CONTRAS, support for Reagan and Falwell and CC)...but it was to much for Bob- maybe it was to much for anyone. For Bob '84 seemed to be HIGH Tide- but the decline started in 1980 which led to the Great Send out.

After that the infighting amongs the "Dukes "(after 84) and "heir apparents " started- Bob wanting to retain control and now the young leaders starting to approach the age oof wisdom (30+ )were saying "forget you and your publicity" what about me? I want my share...

Don't think that it was about ANYTHING else. Not that some did not WANT reform (Mike Caulk plead for it) and Steve Murrell- tough question??? how does Steve ethically hook up wiht Phil and Rice- but Rice, Gregg, Bruce Phil- as my saying goes- "they did not hate the monarchy they only hated the bad king!"

jesusisawesome

06-30-2006, 11:52 PM

mdillon: Thanks for your kind comments. I like your phrase "The Timeline, indeed, is a massive skeleton that is too big for their closet." I really hope that is the case.

ulyankee

07-01-2006, 12:12 AM

1984, md, matt_hatter and others... is there any way to briefly summarize the send out for the timeline?

Last year I saw what was either Bob Weiner's or Winkie Pratney's personal copy of the 1984 conference binder, in their revival library which was profiled in Charisma last year and is now open to the public. This is what was handwritten on the top of the cover page:

$30,000 came in last night
1988 Dec 31st
NT Church on every campus

(Message edited by ulyankee on June 30, 2006)

another_brick_in_the_wall

07-01-2006, 01:23 AM

i gotta say that at first, i was standing back and viewing all of the chatter from the old-timers. i didn't really know what to think of it... were we getting off-topic, etc?

but after viewing all of the old-timer stories, i understand. you guys are providing the "rest of the story." you guys are placing the missing puzzle pieces to what us current ppl have/are dealing with.

this story involves layers and players.

dust, you are really helping me to see the human side of the EN pastors. thank you. for so long i think many of us were waving our fists in the air... now we have placed human faces in front of those fists... it makes you understand that we are all human.

coppertree

07-01-2006, 02:14 AM

Hi Ul, A little more time now. In the 1984-85, that was referring to # 539 ; that was the Dallas meeting. The heat was on from ad-hoc meetings, newspaper articles against the group, some law suits beginning at this time. But not unlike what En is going thru now, which is why these things are important and timely.}

miltietoast

07-01-2006, 02:51 AM

1984, md, matt_hatter and others... is there any way to briefly summarize the send out for the timeline?
July 1981 Mike and Missy Caulk went to Ann Arbor,MI with Hunter Fite. By August their were about 10 of us from Auburn there. These dates are accurate because We took our 2 week old daughter to Ann Arbor. She was born July 15.1981

mdillon

07-01-2006, 04:04 AM

Brick-“i gotta say that at first, i was standing back and viewing all of the chatter from the old-timers. i didn't really know what to think of it... were we getting off-topic, etc”

Doesn’t the fact that there is even the term “old timer” startle you? I’ll be the first to admit, it startles the ever-loving hayzeus outta me. Isn’t it odd (strange, quirky, tragic) that there are those of us who have experienced some of the same things 20-25 years ago? Not only “experienced” but were co-conspirators and perpetrators of much stated heresy and abuse. These things marked us so deeply than after years of pursuing our separate paths in the aftermath we hear of similar situations and its as though these things happened to us yesterday. At least to me anyway. Maybe this explains why Tik’s blog is painted with such vivid detail that really blows my mind.

There have been many other “old timers” who have posted here for awhile to which I owe gratitude for giving me the courage to join the fray. Maybe this is cathartic for many of us since we had no format to voice back in the day.

One thing that I am truly inspired by is the collective wisdom and insight that all bring to the table and I’m sure it would startle me and probably make me jealous in a way to really know how young some of you are and to realize how much of Christ your portray and wish that I could’ve been where you are now when I was younger. There is a host of you who have responded to the abuse and heartbreak with much more courage and maturity than I ever did.

I hope this hasn’t come across in a condescending way because I really don’t consider myself an “old timer” but just a fellow traveler.

Brick, I deeply appreciate your post and I have enjoyed your input for the past year.

md

mdillon

07-01-2006, 04:33 AM

Ulyankee-“ is there any way to briefly summarize the send out for the timeline?”

I’ve got to think a little more about this one. The 1980 MLTS was a catalyst for this which came about with a Phase I and a Phase II. I left Baton Rouge in January 1981 and moved to Boulder, Co. (Hi Factnet!) as part of Phase I. Miltie just mentioned about moving to Ann Arbor in July of 1981 six months later which would have been Phase II.

Tikkie was right in his take on Junaluska. It was this timeframe where Bob was bringing it about “taking the land” much to the chagrin of some of the speakers who ministered including Winkie Pratney and Larry Tomczak who pretty much had the usual “Bob will be Bob” attitude. There was a subsequent meeting I think in November 1980 (was this Gatlinburg?) where in the elders meeting there was prophecy upon prophecy about “taking the land” and we pretty much divvied up the map before it was over thus christening The Big Send Out.

This is all sketchy and subject to other input (please!)

md

another_brick_in_the_wall

07-01-2006, 04:46 AM

md,
thank you for your post. so sorry about the liberty taken with the "old-timers" comment. lol. no offense meant... and your post didn't come across as condescending.

it is good that all of us from the various threads of experiences from the beast known as MCM/MSI/EN come together and now create this beautiful tapestry of chatter, hope and recovery.

thank you.

mdillon

07-01-2006, 04:52 AM

brick, no offense taken whatsoever, btw I loved the "layers and players"

that's rich and right on,

md

john_r_jones

07-01-2006, 04:56 AM

That makes him a "Brick Layer"
John

mdillon

07-01-2006, 06:12 AM

easy jrj- don't want to stir up a Freemason post from bill the mack

(kidding bill)

md

john_r_jones

07-01-2006, 08:51 AM

That would make him "Dollar Bill" with the all seeing eye.
John

mdillon

07-01-2006, 01:49 PM

TB you're killing me. And I mean that in a non-negative confession kind of way.

md

another_brick_in_the_wall

07-01-2006, 01:55 PM

Speaking of money:
Last night I was able to check an item off my proverbial life's to-do list. A local, artsy theater played "Dark Side of the Rainbow". The synch of movie, "Wizard of Oz", to Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon".

Talk about the coming together of generations.

Very cool. And very trippy how song and movie flow together. Definitely recommend the "experience". lol.

Now, back to the program...

maranatha1984

07-01-2006, 02:06 PM

MT:July 1981 Mike and Missy Caulk went to Ann Arbor,MI with Hunter Fite. By August their were about 10 of us from Auburn there. These dates are accurate because We took our 2 week old daughter to Ann Arbor. She was born July 15.1981

84: this is correct: my diploma was May 81 [I typoed in the Blog and put 1980] put it was 81. I was at my ministry in August 81: Miltie do you remember the leadership Conference in December 81 where the "Giant Gant Chart" was shown- a NT on every campus- Gant Charts were common in my business (engineering) Bob acted like MCM had discovered Gant CHarts- like two love struck teenagers who think they discovered sex

ulyankee

07-01-2006, 02:59 PM

84, you know what's funny is I originally was going to lay out the timeline graphically as a Gantt chart or similar format, until I found just way too much stuff to do it that way.

I chuckle at "old timer" b/c I'm almost as old as some of the former MCMers here (which still doesn't seem that old!!!! Or maybe I'm in denial), and my hubby is the same age as the current EN leadership. Judging from some of the song references being posted here and there I don't think I'm alone in being a former ENer from the generation that came of age in the late 70s through mid 80s. I am definitely of an age to have been recruited the first time around. I remember someone trying to evangelize me on campus in I think 1983 or so and in retrospect it was likely someone in the ICC/Boston Movement... but if I attended where my sister went to school instead it easily could have been MCM, since there was a chapter there...

speakword2004

07-01-2006, 08:10 PM

Back to The Future
Hey McFly!

Campaign van (in 1985): Re-elect mayor Goldie Wilson! Progress is his middle name. Mayor Wilson's progress platform means more jobs, better education, bigger civic improvements and lower taxes! On election day, cast your vote for a proven leader...

Campaign car (in 1955): Re-elect mayor Red Thomas! Progress is his middle name. Mayor Thomas' progress platform means more jobs, better education, bigger civic improvements and lower taxes! On election day, cast your vote for a proven leader...

philiprosenthal

07-01-2006, 08:48 PM

Question for Ulyankee with regard to above: Was "Winkie Pratney" also part of Maranatha?

philiprosenthal

07-01-2006, 08:51 PM

Question 2 for Ulyankee with regard to above: When and where is the next world conference?
* Anyone volunteer to go advertise the www.everynationinfo.com (http://www.everynationinfo.com) and www.everynationreform.com (http://www.everynationreform.com) web domains at the conference to get more people here?

coppertree

07-01-2006, 10:04 PM

Hi Phil- Winikie Pratney was a good friend of MCM, came often to speak at national and regional meetings. We read and bought , his books and tapes. I hope this helps.}

philiprosenthal

07-01-2006, 10:07 PM

Paul Daniel said he got the inspiration to found His People while reading Winkie Pratney's book 'Revival'. I also found it a very inspiring book.

miltietoast

07-01-2006, 11:42 PM

Miltie do you remember the leadership Conference in December 81 where the "Giant Gant Chart" was shown- a NT on every campus

uhhh 84 I was not invited to that leadership conference as I was not leadership material.I was working in Ann Arbor selling transmissions

Winkie was always talking about movies we were not supposed to watch---again outside speakers brought much needed balance to Maranatha. No telling what cliff we woild have walked off without their benign influence

I was telling mdillon that a book that reminds me of Maranatha leadership is Pilgrims Progress. When pilgrim enters the village of Vanity Fair he offends the villagers greatly and is beaten and thrown into jail along with his companion Faithful. The villagers found fault with Pilgrim in three areas 1.he did not speak like the villagers2.he did not dress like the villagers3.and most importantly he would not buy the villagers merchandise.
Maranatha tried to speak,dress, buy and embrace their way into the village.Maranatha/EN would want to take dominion of the Vanity Fair(Babylon, which makes merchandise of mens souls,is falling)God does not market Himself with the boastful pride of life.however, it is a good marketing scheme to live deliciously(rev18:9)

bill_mack

07-02-2006, 01:02 AM

Philip: Question for Ulyankee with regard to above: Was "Winkie Pratney" also part of Maranatha?

Moral Government proponent Winkie Pratney showed up at the 2000 Maranatha Convention in Lake Geneva Wisconsin. I was amazed. I thought to myself, "Why is Pratney here? The last time I say him he was with Leonard Ravenhill and Keith green of Last Days Ministries in the early 80's..."

I did some research and found out that there is a Palegian-based heretical theology called Moral Government Theology (MGT). Man can reach perfection through his own efforts, etc. Pratney is a major proponent of this theology and was exposed years ago along with YWAM leader George Otis, Jr. et al. by Dr. Alan W. Gomes (http://people.biola.edu/faculty/alang/ZGuide/zguide.html) and ex-Ywam leader Greg Robertson (http://www.geocities.com/promo777/moral.htm).

Dr. Jay Grimstead's Coalition on Revival (COR) (http://www.reformation.net/COR/cordocs/Manifesto.pdf) which is Dominion/Reconstruction (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/12/a_nation_under_god.html) based, is made up of an UNHOLY ALLIANCE of covenanted members that include MGT adherents and NOLR adherents. This theosophical structure held together by "untempered morter" is headed for disaster and will such anyone into its vortex on the Highway to Hell.

Winkey Pratney is definately part of this mixture.

Did you get the documents I sent you Philip?