What is it like in different Church Streams

[speakword2004]

For those of us who have left EN and the heresies of Latter Rain and other bits of charismania, what churches would people recommend?

[philiprosenthal]

For those seeking recovery, I would recommend the Vineyard. In many positive ways such as in Charismatic worship style it is similar to His People/EveryNation, but I haven't experienced the elitism, high-pressure & hype which I feel created many of the other problems in His People-EveryNation. The Vineyard Bible School www.vineyardbi.org (http://www.vineyardbi.org) I also find really helpful.

[bill_mack]

VINEYARD IS A MAJOR NOLR CULT!

I flatly disagree. I have much documentation that John Wimber's theology was no different than that of Bob Weiner's Maranatha. For over two years now, I have corresponded with a former Vineyard member, Scott Shaw, who was in Vineyard Aneheim for over 10 years. He was in the "inner circle" -- the "core group" of leadership and witnessed firsthand the sorcery that Wimber used to capture congregants.

If anyone wants Scott's lengthy Vineyard testimony or wants to talk to Scott live via telephone, just email me. We have all the details and after comparing notes and documentation, we have concluded that, save for a few diffrences in personality, both Maranatha and Vineyard are cut from the same cloth.

Here's my email for Scott Shaw's Vineyard testimony: deltalight77@hotmail.com

Sorry Phil, but I've got you covered on this one. We will simply agree to disagree.

--Bill

[lc_20]

Bill, I agree with you. I visited a Vineyard church after leaving msi/en. It was very similar to msi/en in its theology. Some of my friends left msi/en for the vineyard church because they wanted to get away from the financial issues but they still believed in the "covering" teachings. I asked the pastor about his financial accountability and told him of my concerns about the new apostolic reformation and the covering teachings. He told me his church wasn't for me. End of discussion.

[lc_20]

Speak, I have been leaning toward the Methodist church. They seem to have a solid committment to the gospel. They are an apostolic church, but it is very different than the new apostolic reformation. I like that the preaching is about stories in the bible and Jesus rather than personal stories. I am kind of tired of pastors telling their personal stories like they are the example/standard to go by. I may try a Lutheren church as well. My guess is there are problems in any church's inner circle. So, my plan is to stay on the fringe - avoid familiarity with leadership.

[j2theperson]

On the Vineyard website (http://www.vineyardusa.org), they talk about the Vineyard Genetic Code (http://www.vineyardusa.org/upload/The%20Vineyard%20Genetic%20Code.pdf). While the items that make up this "code" appear, for the most part, innocent enough, the very fact that Vineyard is talking about having a genetic code raises flags with me.

[bill_mack]

lc_20: I have been leaning toward the Methodist church.

Please be careful here!!! The Methodist Church has been infiltrated with the "Re-imagining Sophia" (http://tcrnews2.com/genoccult.html) movement and more recently, it is buckling to the "Gay Christian" cult. There are many, many great Christian Methodists, but there are also those leaders, such as the new senior pastor, Rev. Dennis Ogleseby (http://www.parkavechurch.org/about/pastors.html) (dennisOglesby@parkavechurch.org, (612) 825–6864 ext. 566) who thinks the Methodists should accept homosexual "same-sex unions" and welcome homosexuals into I Cor 11 communion. So, between the lesbionic feminazis and the homosexuals trying hard to take over the Methodist Church, I'd make sure I checked out individual congregations and their leaders before commiting myself. Sound like a plan? BTW, I attended Park Avenue Methodist for over a year and a half. I did like the worship. I had a big problem with their programs with Promise Keepers and Alpha, but that's another issue.

--Bill

[lc_20]

Bill, Thanks for the warnings. As far as commiting to one denomination, that is unlikely to happen for me again in this lifetime. What do you think of the Lutherans? A friend of mine was Lutheran when I was growing up and her parents seemed very caring and loving. So, I was going to look into that denomination also.

(Message edited by lc_20 on July 01, 2006)

[bill_mack]

lc-20,

There are some really good orthodox Lutheran churches out there, especially ones with pastors who are willing to communicate the issues with their congregants and not try to play the clergy/laity games we've both experienced with MCM/ENC.

Over 15 years ago, probably 20, there was a split in the Lutheran church. In the end, there became 4 Lutheran entities:

1) American Lutheran Church (ALC)
2) Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA)
3) Lutheran Church - Wisconsin Synod (LCWS)
4) Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS)

The last two, LCWS and LCMS held to the inerrancy of scripture, but are still continually being bombarded by pastors and congregations that are crying they are missing out on the "movement of the spirit" e.g. Brownville and Toronto. They cry that they are tired of the dryness and dead worship of the old Lutheran Hymns, etc. as well as the arrogant games of the leadership. Also, besides no homos, they don't allow women in leadership. So, if you are a women or a lesbionic feminazi, then maybe the ALC or ELCA is the way to go. Here in Minnesota we have several lesbian witches as Lutheran pastors. We don't have clone pastors yet, but we do have at least one transexual youth pastor in Plymouth Congregational church named Malcolm Himschoot (http://www.plymouth.org/min-staff-main.htm).

I really think that we Christians need to start realizing that the church is the "called out ones" and not a denomination. I was saved in Jesus People Church in Minneapolis from 1975-1982. Looking back in retrospect, this church, although believed to be Charismatic, had many hard-core NOLR leaders with a Latter Rain emphasis on being "spirit-filled" and talking in tongues, etc.

After witnessing who and what the NOLR really is, I have learned to ask more pointed questions regarding any church I step into. I hope with all my heart that I have caused more Christians to do the same thing.

At this point, many here are well-equipped to steer pastors and other leaders out of the traps. If the leaders won't listen, then give literature and documentation to their congregants. The counter-cult presence on the web has never been stronger than it is right now.

--Bill

[miltietoast]

I am looking for some Anabaptists from the 15th century. The ones that the the Catholics and Protestants slaughtered by the 1,000's in Europe

[bill_mack]

miltietoast,

I think you are looking for info on the Huguenots. If so, the central document you need that applies to whether or not Christians are to obey illigitimate authority, such as the false apostles we are now dealing with, is called "Vindici Today" (http://www.contra-mundum.org/books/vindiciae.pdf).

--Bill

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

i have been attending on more regular basis a presbyterian congregation. it's associated with the PC-USA (not the PCA or Pres Church of America). this denom is more traditional, lutheran-influenced. i have really enjoyed the traditional service with hymns and so forth.

thanks to bill-mack, before i jump in to become a member of this church/denom... i went to their official website and downloaded the denom's constitution. reading over it now.

i agree with bill-mack that no matter what denom you settle in... one must always keep their guards up, nose to the grindstone (bible) and remember to not check your brain at the door.

though i do believe that it is important (when a person is ready) to join themselves to a healthy congregation to be connected with believers.

though, like lc20 - i doubt i will ever "jump full-force" back into a hyper-active church life. AND i am commiting myself to speak up and speak loud if any congregation that i am apart of...starts taking weird turns.

bill, any words of wisdom on PCUSA is appreciated. i'm bracing myself... lol.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

the one thing that does grieve my heart is that the PCUSA has recently reported significant decline in their membership. i believe it is due to the horrible impact of Charismania, Mega-Church crapola. people want to be entertained...programmed up to their eyeballs. people are being swayed away... which grieves me now that i know how messed up that crazy side of the family is.

that's why i believe that these traditional denoms are very vulnerable to give into these crazy teachings right now.

God help us all.

[ontheroad]

Regarding Vineyard -
I have a friend who is also ex-Maranatha and who recently became friends with someone who'd just left a Vineyard church. When they compared stories of what happened in the ex-maranatha church and the vineyard church, it was eerily similar.

I have HUGE red flags about the Vineyard churches.

[40days40years]

brick: I think one problem with some of the main line denominations and why they have lost members is because they tolerate men at the highest levels that don't believe in the basics of the christian faith. Some of the profs at their seminaries are apostate. That may be one reason why PCUSA is in decline. It almost seems like you get to choose between a church that is run by people with an ecumenical mind set or a tough as nails baptist who is meaner then a snake mind set, LOL.

road: I visited a few vineyard churches a long time ago. They don't seem to be as elitest and proud as Maranatha and I believe there is less fear there and their more balanced. They seem to be one of those churches that either you hear really good things about them and or pretty bad things. The thing that concerns me about them is reading that Ernie Gruen report on the Kansas city prophets and realizing that Vineyard had lots of people involved with those guys, that makes me leery of the people at the very top who run the thing.

I read about one Vineyard chuch that left Vineyard and became Orhodox. To me that was kind of shocking how do you get a bunch of basically protestants to act as a group and join a church that is involved with icons? It shows that they must not take their theology to seriously to be that easily influenced to do such a drastic thing enmass.

Bill I have run across a lot of people that believe that the Lutheran church and the Roman Catholic church are very similar in many, ways.

(Message edited by 40days40years on July 03, 2006)

[lc_20]

One thing I learned is you can't tell who really believes in God until you see how they handle a tragedy. I have seen charasmatic pastors who would raise their hands in worship three days a week and speak in tongues daily fall apart when something minor went wrong. I have also seen a man who rarely went to his denominational church stand very strong in his faith when faces with a life threatening situation. You will know them by their fruit (spiritual gifts), not by their visible worship style.

40days, I do agree with you on the leaders not all having faith. I was talking to someone I worked with who was telling me he was an elder in his church and he was telling me all the ways he served. I asked him if he believed in God and he said no. But, he did believe in the lifestyle of giving and serving the community and wanted his children exposed to that. He was a man low in faith but strong in character. My guess is that in his final days, God will give him the measure of faith he needs to believe. I trust that his faith will surface when it needs to because he is being honest with God about his lack of faith.

[philiprosenthal]

Dear Bill

You are correct in saying there are some similarities between Vineyard and NAR theology. Nevertheless, there are also major differences which I have already mentioned elsewhere on this web site. There is a masters thesis on this at www.vineyardbi.org (http://www.vineyardbi.org) available as an ebook at about $9 by Hans Albas. Nevertheless, the biggest differences are not so much in theology, but in behaviour of leaders - that difference is very radical - and that I think is what most people on FactNet are complaining about. Behaviour primarily rather than theology.

If you trawl the internet, you will find lots of people criticising Vineyard theology. Nevertheless, these are generally outsiders of other denominations criticising Vineyard theology. What we have on FactNet is those from inside EveryNation criticising behaviour/hypocrisy. That is a big difference.

You may be one of those who disagree with Vineyard theology. Fair enough. You are entitled to that view. But what is not fair is to label them as a sociological cult - which is what at least a part of EveryNation is being accused of.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

40,
I respectfully disagree with your comment that top leaders in mainline denoms are apostates or lost their faith. Using Phil's term, I think that is an unfair blanket statement ... the reason is that I heard those same statements several times from the pulpit at Bethel. Hearing these statements led me (and other comrades) to believe, "Oh, tisk, tisk - these poor Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans are deceived". Reflecting, those statements were designed to keep us in our places.

Now after a season of visiting these very same church denoms... I don't believe that for one-cent. They express their faith in different ways. And some may have no faith at all (like lc20's post)...but one doesn't constantly have to prove their faith. Big difference...

And I have ascertained that the mainline denoms (on more ecumenical-slant) adhere more to intellectual value. Which as I posted on another thread, Bethel really opposed to one's use of their God-given minds.

I also heard from Bethel's pulpit, "The Head of Vanderbilt's Divity School is as agnostic". Several times. This also provided me another one of those "tisk-tisk" moments. "Oh, those poor deceived Vandy Divinty students... they are being "infected" with another "truth".

Now, I don't know for certain if this statement is true...and one day I will do research...but the point is that one must be very careful when they receive these "all-knowing, all-seeing *words of Godly wisdom" from one's church pulpit.

Now, I have my doubts as to the validity that the Chair of Vanderbilt's Divinity School was agnostic. I mean, it just seems so unbelievable now. (but I did believe it - without the desire to second-guess the pulpit).

[miltietoast]

Thanks for link Bill. Not what is was talking about but very interesting document as specially as it relates to founding fathers

I was speaking of the slaughtering of Anabaptists in Europe by the Catholics,Lutherans,Zwingli and Calvin
I have read the testimonies of Anabaptists before the tribunals and their witness is as if Jesus was speaking and they suffered the same consequences for their testimony.
It troubles me deeply which makes me ask the question,Do sheep kill sheep?

There is spiritual slaughter taking place today in EN/Maranatha.(silence of the lambs).If these guys ever get the dominion they seek after, then they will be able to silence the lambs for good. Contray to the old childrens saying "sticks and stones can shut you up forever.
The only weapon the Anabaptists had was the word of God and their voice was deemed more dangerous to society than a nuclear warhead

[thunderbug]

I was "charismatic" before I went to MSI, and am still charismatic now that I've been out for 5 yrs. I grew up in a healthy, albeit imperfect, non-denominational charismatic church. Unfortunately, that's how I got involved with MSI: When I went off to college I was looking forward to getting involved with the same kind of people, and the MSI group was the only spirit-filled group on campus.

But also, my healthy experience in spirit-filled churches as a child and adolescent helped me recognize some of the warning signs in EN. The biggest thing was that we were always taught in my family's church that unity was essential and that different churches were like different parts of the body of Christ, as long as they believed the essentials of the faith. We often had youth activities together with mainline denominational churches.

When I was on campus with MSI, our group did attend some prayer and unity meetings with other Christian group, but once I was out of the campus group and in junior leadership in ministry people were always looked down on when they left MSI for another church. I knew this was totally wrong because of my previous church experience, and when I left MSI I knew healthy charismatic churches existed and I found one.

Having said all that, I understand how someone whose major experiences with spirit-filled churches were with MSI would be turned off to "charismania", the prophetic, etc.

In charismatic churches you definitely have to sift through the prophecy that comes along - it's kind of like panning for gold sometimes. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif But for me that is all part of maturing in the faith- "But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." Hebrews 5:14

[bill_mack]

Philip: But what is not fair is to label them as a sociological cult - which is what at least a part of EveryNation is being accused of.

Based on my historical research, I am labeling *both* Vineyard and MCM/ENC as part of the greater NOLR theological (not sociological) cult movement. Over 50-years of heresy and documentation proves my point.

[philiprosenthal]

Bill

Vineyard has written their comments on the NOLR theology in the book on their history 'The quest for the radical middle'. They reject NOLR theology, but not the concept of modern apostles. They have a different theology on apostles to the NOLR. To an outsider it may sound similar, but there are very big differences. Vineyard would also regard NOLR teaching on apostles as arrogant/fringe/cultic stuff - as do most other denominations. Essentially, they don't put apostles on a pedestal as do the NOLR. They treat them like ordinary people and in fact discourage the use of the term 'apostle' simply because of the connotations associated with it in terms of NOLR practice.

Philip

[pilgrim]

philiprosenthal,



A brother in Christ had to leave the Vineyard church in England because he did not agree some of the following unbiblical New Age manifestations which occurred in the Vineyard church..

I believe in the biblical gifts of the Holy Spirtit but not in umbiblical manifestations.
The following web sites shows that the same unbiblical manifestations like (un) holy laughter, a whole range of farmyard and other animal noises manifestations etc. can also be seen in the Collie's Kundalini Signs and Symptoms a New Age document. Please click on the first web site. The second one is the same in spanish.



www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3.htm)



http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/Powers3_Spanish.htm


Some unbiblical manifestations seen in the church today like the Toronto Experience, [un] holy drunkness etc. are listed in the bible as a sign of judgement on Babylon! eg see Jer 51: 35-58, Jer 51:45.

Here is another link about the Toronto manifestacions.

www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/openletterng2.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/openletterng2.htm)




Falling Backwards: is another manifestation NOT found in the New Testament Church. In the bible we can see that only those who are opposing God go backwards or fall in this way. eg. John 18:6, Isa:1:4; 28:12-13 and Jer 7:24. Saints in the bible did not fall for no reason in this way.

Saints in the scriptures always fall forwards whenever a direction is specified eg.Ezek 3:23; Matt 17:6, Rev.11:16. Saints in the bible only fall for good understandable reasons and not because an unseen force knocks them over or controls them.

Carpet time/floor time: This involuntary sleep is not found in The New Testament Church although it is found among the list of judgement on APOSTACY eg Isa:56:9-11;Jer 51:57:58 and Isa 29:1-10.

In the Mid 1980's well after I left a latter rain cult called Maranatha, I went with a Christian friend to visit a church where an American group was visiting. Everyone who was touched by the members of this group from the USA was falling backwards and were left for a few minutes lying in the floor in a trance-like state.

The first thing that came to my mind was that I have never seen these manifestations in the bible and I strongly felt that these manifestacions did not come from the Holy Spirit. I did not feel peace. I prayed in the name of Jesus Christ a simple prayer. I said to God if this weird unbiblical manifestation do not come from you protect me and my christian friend from falling backwards on the floor. We were the only two outside the American group who did not fall backwards. My friend did not know about my prayers.


Blessings,

pilgrim

[lc_20]

Pilgram, In my time in msi/en. I did get "slane in the spirit" twice. Both times, I felt an overwhelming fear when the pastor came up to me and pushed me back. I honestly believe at this point that it was a demonic spirit and I was frozen in fear. The first time, the pastor came up to me and said "Are you scared". I said no and he said "you should be" and put his hands on my neck with a quick violent motion - so I fell back to get his hands away from my neck. It was frightening. The second time, I was already pre-conditioned toward that fear. So, as soon as the pastor reached out to me, I felt fear and fell back. If it was the Holy Spirit, He is one mean-axx dude.

When I visited the vineyard where my friends had gone, they had a prayer meeting where they were praying for the spirit of laughter. People were rolling on the floor laughing. They prayed it for me and nothing...no crazy laughter out of me. They told me it was because there was something wrong with me blocking their prayers. Nutty people.

[pilgrim]

Hi lc_20

You said, They told me it was because there was something wrong with me blocking their prayers.

I think that the Holy Spirit was blocking their prayers and protecting you from this false New Age Kundalini spirit.

Thank you for your message.

Blessings
Pilgrim

[jbkrems]

As a WOF person, but not one in EveryNation, I need to interject here and comment on something.

While I have never personally been "slain in the Spirit," or "fallen out under the power," I've had several close experiences. And I do believe that being "slain in the Spirit" is a genuine Biblical experience. Its not un-Scriptural, as Pilgrim would say.

First, what is really important is that in the Old Testament, there were times when they carried around the Ark of the Covenant, and the priests could not stand to minister because the power of God was so heavy and thick, and the glory of the Lord came down. And that's all that really happens when people "fall out under the power," they are overcome by the glory and power of God.

I want to comment on LC20's experience. First, if the pastor said "you should be afraid," that is wrong. You really have nothing to fear in terms of being slain in the Spirit or falling out under God's power.

However, you can block other people's prayer, like what happened at the Vineyard church. And that is a wrong thing, because it grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit, which the Bible forbids us to do.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

i have to add to my earlier post regarding the topic of the head of the Vanderbilt Divinity School...

i can't recall specifically, but what i heard from the pulpit was that s/he was either agnostic or atheist. i can't recall what term used...but i heard this several times.

again, i don't know if this if fact or spin. but my point is: i believed it without investigating the statement. but logically, how could the head of a divinity school be an atheist (or agnostic)? that sounds nuts now.

it just pays to put the critical thinking hat on sometimes.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

and thunderbug,
point well-taken about charismatic churches. i do believe that one can be charismatic and healthy, balanced - blossoming in a healthy, balanced charismatic congregation.

that's why i used the term, "charismania". unfortunately, this side is the only one that i have experience with.

God bless.

[hewrote]

One Body

Romans 9:7
Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
ONE Father

2 Corinthians 11:22
What anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

TO HEAR THE SHEEP

Psalm 44:1
We have heard with our ears, O God; our fathers have told us what you did in their days, in days long ago.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

TESTED

Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[hewrote]

%Real Spiritual Stream of Family%

13Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.

14In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.

15And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.