VLI and Biblical Worldview

[dust (dust)]

In the VLI Class, Biblical Worldview......at first, it sounded good to me, but then as I now look at the notes, it is not really a biblical worldview at all....it is a view of man's attempt to dominate and control man, manipulating scripture.


They have 10 Commandments for modern life:

This teaching is The READING for BiBLICAL WORLDVIEW CLASS. statement is taken from "READING FOR SESSION 2) has no page number:

BEGIN NOTES:
5. Honor Your father and mother:
The fifth commandment (w/7th/8th/10th) establishes the family as the fundamental authority in the earth. God's original commission to man was take dominion. (Gen. 1;26:28). This is to be primarily carried out through the family. The state has taken away much of the authority of the family today, including taking dominion or ruling over the earth.

The family is the basic building block of society. If it is undermined, society will crumble. Today, there are many obvious things occurring in America and the nations that are undermining the family things such as a society to accept homosexual marriages, tax laws that benefit two unmarried singles living together, and welfare laws that pay mothers not to live with the husbands of their children.
END NOTES

I'm not even going to give my own comments on this for now....it gives much to debate and again see what is fundamental in the core of this ministry.

DUST

[40days40years (40days40years)]

O.K I will start out with some comments. Number one when people decide to start a family is "dominion" their prime motivation or love?

Second what did God mean by taking dominion in Genesis? Did he mean divert the rivers, corral the cows and plant your crops or was he talking about taking dominion over society and other human beings? You could justify every war in the name of taking dominion if you think about it.

Third this theology would work great for endorcing kingship. A royal family taking dominion over everyone in society has been tried everywhere, it was the preferred model of the world. Originally God did not want Israel to have a king though he wanted to be their king.

If God takes dominion through the family and EN is your spiritual family then the leaders must be your Father and Mother and like the good book says 5.) Honor your father and mother.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

40/40,

From the Purple Book (2004 edition), p. 51:

<font color="aa00aa">The Victorious Church

[. . .]Just as God sovereignly determines our parents and other family members, he also sovereignly chooses which spiritual family we are born into. The church is God's instrument for advancing his kingdom. He has no "plan B." The church is the only legitimate setting for walking out the Christian faith. No long-term "lone ranger" can be a true disciple of Christ. All who truly desire to follow Christ must find their place in a church family.</font>

I believe Scripture is clear that believers are the Church, the Body of Christ, and that the true church is in unity through the Holy Spirit. Yes, believers gathered together in fellowship, but the brick and mortar... nor the organization... does not constitute the church per se. WE are the church. So the day I left EN, I did not leave the church. As I said on another thread this AM, the PB is very subtle, but lays a foundation in several areas for believers to submit to additional control and bondage that Jesus Christ never intended.

In contrast, we are studying Hebrews in my current church. Last night we were in the first 10 or so verses of the 3rd chapter. Before he closed our pastor asked us, "If you stop going to church, are you still saved? If you stop giving, are you still saved?"

If the answer is "no," then he concluded we're on shaky ground b/c then we are counting on something other than Jesus Christ for our salvation. Even though Scripture does teach us to gather together in fellowship and give, our salvation is not in those things but in Jesus Christ alone.

We are ALREADY IN "SPIRITUAL FAMILY" THE MOMENT WE ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR.

See this (http://nomoreshepherding.blogspot.com/2006/01/spiritual-family-dominion-babel.html) for some additional thoughts, if you're interested...

(Message edited by ulyankee on January 02, 2006)

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

I pulled out my biblical world view notes by Ron Lewis and Wayne Mitchell. Under week 5: Civil Government: defining a culture. It says:
"B. The 20th Century and the Rise of Big Government.
B.1 Understanding why big government is our enemy
a. Tendencies of Suppression
b. Direct hinderance to the spread of the Gospel!"
c. The growth of the civil government sphere necessitates the usurpation of power from other spheres.
d. The church of Jesus Christ is left as being largely irrelevant.

C. A look at liberalism at the Core
4. The vain attempt to make all people the same
a. Communism
b. Graduated Income Tax
c. Outcome based Education
(In my personal notes it says here: Not all men are created equal - what did you do with what He gave you - stewardship)

D. A look at Conservatism at the core
4. Fails to acknowledge that self-government (lack of greed) can only begin through being born again.

II. The importance of the law base
3. "Cultural Diversity" in America is code word for war against our Christian law base.

Dust, from my notes, it seems that this class's emphasis was on reducing government and increasing the power of the church through family and biblical law.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

Your comments and questions are excellent, especially,

"Third this theology would work great for endorsing kingship. A royal family taking dominion over everyone in society has been tried everywhere; it was the preferred model of the world. Originally God did not want Israel to have a king though he wanted to be their king."

One could make a case that MCM/MSI/ENC doctrines are *FORERUNNER* doctrines to setting up a *Royal Family* (http://www.tparents.org/Library/Moon/Photos/Mph-1999/TP991104.jpg) such as the one now in place with Sung Yung Moon (http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/2004/05/im-and-i-approve-this-messiah.html).

Couple this with the direct covenanted associations between the leaders in the Maranatha compound with those of the rest of the New Order of the Latter Rain as well as looking at their 17th century elitist theosophy, we see that:

1) They are not Pentecostals or Charismatics or "Conservative Christian Ministry" like they desperately would have us believe.

2) Since they intend to keep what they capture for self-gain and exploitation that which is not theirs in the first place, we see they have set themselves up as the corporate "Christ". This is illegal fiction since they advertise under pretext that they are a Christian Church, yet do not abide by Biblical standards or definitions.

Bait and switch tactics using Almighty God as a pawn prove that these people cannot be trusted with God's Word.

ulyankee,

"We are ALREADY IN "SPIRITUAL FAMILY" THE MOMENT WE ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR."

This is absolutely true, but the leaders believe they are the returned Christ. So to them, anyone who joins up is seen to have *arrived* in their designated "family."

FLIRTY FISHING (http://www.thefamily.org/ourfounder/tribute/trib_21.htm) AND HEAVENLY DECEPTION (http://www.thegreatseparation.com/newsfront/2004/06/us_lawmakers_cr.html)???

Is deception part of Christianity in winning souls for Christ or is deception a classic sign that proves MCM/MSI/ENC is a cult? In other words, is Every Nation Churches a cult defined by its use of deception?

The Answer is YES!!
Now I understand the bizarre answers I got from many Maranatha leaders when I asked them the question,

"Do you feel there is something odd going on around here? Is it just me or do you perceive some problems?"

The bizarre answer I received from false prophet, Music minister and false leader Dean Bonde and others was, "Yes, but did God call you to be here?"

At the time, I answered yes, but Bonde's answer was puzzling. It was like saying, "Yes, there could be criminal activities going down and we could be a deadly mind-control cult from which you'd never escape, but since God called you to be here, your on holy ground, so quite asking stupid questions."

Today, I know for sure that Dean Bonde and his wife and family are indeed in a deadly mind-control cult and that he simply cannot think straight. If he is not mind-controlled by his handler, Bruce Harpel, then he would have told me the truth about who Maranatha was and the fact that they have been accused and successfully convicted of being a cult decades ago. False leader Dean Bonde proved his obedience to Bruce Harpel's code-of-silence-through-covenant takes priority to giving a University of Minnesota college student the ability to make up their own mind about whether or not to freely associate with Maranatha. Dean Bonde help defraud me of well over $5000.00. I finally ferreted out the truth however, but at a large cost. Dean Bonde, Bruce Harpel, Johnathan Bislew, Grant Busse, Parnell Mahoney, Kathy James and other Maranatha cult leaders will never again be trusted since when they knew the truth that could have told the truth about their organization used for fraud and mind-control of campus students. They willfully chose to keep silent.

What does God say about this?

Prov 24:11-12:
If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Will God just sit by and not judge Bruce Harpel, Kathy James, Dean Bonde (http://www.primequitymortgage.com/StaffProfiles.aspx?ID=15202) and Johnathan Bislew (http://www.star.niu.edu/articles/?id=159) for lying to my face when I asked them pointed questions about who Maranatha was and where they originally came from. No! Of course not! They are liars and have committed illegal fraud and deception which is against the law. And God will judge this entire cult movement for refusing to give high school and college students the information they deserve to make an intelligent decision whether or not to associate themselves with Maranatha. Bruce Harpel is a liar and so are his captives.

Minneapolis Maranatha leaders are criminals and not Christians. They continue to this very day to defraud countless college students on the campuses of the University of Minnesota, St. Cloud State and Mankato State University as well as many other Christians who have no idea their church is covenanted with a well-known and highly-documented mind-control cult. A classic example would be the Christians in Al Holt’s Total Victory Christian Center (TVCC) (http://www.holygrind.com/about.htm) in South Minneapolis and Colonial Church of Edina (http://www.colonialchurch.org/loving_serving/outreach_missions/local.htm).

This *UNHOLY ALLIANCE* (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/geneology.gif) is now allying itself with the new Emerging Church Movement (http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20420) that uses the metaphor of "Ancient-Future" (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/dingdong.html) to provide their structure and unbiblical destiny toward merging with the NEW WORLD RELIGION of the ANTICHRIST (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1094.cfm).

Some time ago, I visited Solomon's Porch (http://www.solomonsporch.com/) -- an Emerging Church (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week845/cover.html) in South Minneapolis. It is easy to see that in 2006, the Emerging Church will form more alliances since MCM/MSI/ENC and the outcome-based Emerging Church (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1506index.html) have their RADAR focused on the same body of youth so as to alchemystically transform (http://www.leonardsweet.com/sweetened/video/doublering.ram) them into the "Elected Seed" or "Joshua Generation" that the New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) (http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain7.htm) leaders have dreamed of for decades. Little do the participants know who are now in the Emerging Church Movement they have now entered in to a NEW AGE religious scheme (http://www.redmoonrising.com/maitreya.htm) that has been planned well-over 150-years ago. Will these people study and find out just what kind of occult movement they are involved with before their minds are totally given over to group-think (http://www.factnet.org/coercion.html)???

PRAISE GOD!!! There are still biblical pastors like Rev. Bob DeWaay (http://www.twincityfellowship.com/about_bob.php) would have the courage to openly debate Emerging Church (http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue87.htm) apostates like Doug Pagitt of Solomon’s Porch. The cowards at Maranatha in Minneapolis and the rest of the cowards in Minnesota NOLR cults can’t stand up to the light of the Gospel in open debates. These spiritual pedophiles seek to exploit high school and college students who sincerely want to know Jesus Christ, but would never imagine the “Bait and Switch” cult tactics these false leaders have used for decades.

EMERGING CHURCH PUBLIC DEBATE (http://www.twincityfellowship.com/news_evt.php)

If any one reading this is in Minnesota in the next couple of weeks, please be advised there is an open public debate between Emergent Church leader Doug Pagitt (http://www.bwexperience.com/about/images/doug.jpg) and orthodox Christian leader Rev. Bob DeWaay, pastor of Twin Cities Christian Fellowship (http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.htm). This may be the first-ever public debate between a leader of the heretical EMERGING CHURCH MOVEMENT that believes in the very same “Ancient-Future” used for spiritual direction as does FREEMASONRY (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm) and the ROSICRUCIANS (http://www.rosicrucian.org/). I’m sure New Order of the Latter Rain church members (http://www.cityhill.org/) who are mind-controlled by their false “Apostolic Covering” (http://www.mbfellowship.com/pages/leadership.html) will not attend since they get directions from their disciplers (http://www.rainministries.org/site/rezz_page.php?pageName=rz_rain_apostolicteam&amp;dirNa me=rain) and “shepherds.” (http://www.rainministries.org/site/rezz_page.php?pageName=rz_rain_advisors&amp;dirName=ra in)

People: Rev. Bob DeWaay, Doug Pagitt
Date: Friday January 20, 2006
Time: 7:00pm
Place: Twin City Christian Fellowship in South Minneapolis

[dust (dust)]

I know this is a LOADED topic....and, that is why I refrained just for the moment, as I'm still waking up to the fact of the political indoctrination I received. I just want to know one thing:

The welfare mom we are "paying not to live with the father of her children."

Since this is something EN thinks we need to change, are they going to support this family?

Are they going to the inner city and bring the LIGHT, with some REAL TANGIBLE help?

Do they not realize these young gals never knew a dad or a grandfather and this is a serious social-spiritual problem that needs the HELP of a SAVIOR.

Or, do we take dominion, and throw this "immoral" women in the sewer?

After all, if you continue the thinking process......WE are CHRISTIANS and GOD has given US the land, and we are paying for the welfare of the families of the inner city who don't have the CHrist we have, the land we own, and are just not together. WHY SHOULD WE PAY FOR a sinner's consequence?

Maybe, because Christ paid for mine!

And, the answer is take dominion of the government and do what? Make unmarried sex illiegal? Sterilize the unsaved? Take the children away? Put them all on the street?

It's an unsavory problem and what is the church's answer.

Of course, after we get the immoral women and children problem solve, we will then have to imprison homosexuals because if they get married (which I don't personally support from a theological view) they will get some tax benefits that belong to me because I'm a CHristian. And when we get that done, we will then FORBID by LAW fornication, and adultery, possibly taking them to the edge of town for a good stoning.

Is THIS what God meant in Honor thy Father and thy Mother.


Or am I just going off the deep end because I'm just a little upset that there was a day a few years ago, where I sat in chair in VLI and I was smug about who I thought I was as a Christian and I looked down at people and I judged them and I wanted to just trash them and change laws and be strong, be like a soldier in the Christian army fighting sin and immorality, and now I'm ashamed of who I was sitting under the umbrella of my Christian leaders. And, I had forgotten where I had come from.
DUST

[coppertree (coppertree)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Dust, thank you for your post. Many of us have felt very badly after our involvement in this group. We were all a little smug; those who helped do the work in this group. After all we were the elite, the chosen and the called. I am so glad to be free. The bad feelings do go away, as we begin to really see.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

I am a politically conservative myself dust but I was going to raise similar points but you beat me to the punch. A question is where does this thinking lead to? Does it lead to feudalism? Where a royal family ends up controling everything through little kingdoms which they distribute as they see fit. Friends of the family and distant blood relatives get their little estates and get to be called Dukes and Duchesses and Earls. Are peons like the masses called serfs and are allowed to be dominated ?, do they come with the estates also?. I know it is crazy but that is how it use to be in midevil times.

Perhaps were taking these guys to seriously?, they would need the majority to support this stuff and it is'nt going to happen. Anyone can have delusions of grandeur but in response to your questions. Some things that would happen would resemble what happened to the children of navitve Americans who were taken and put into boarding school homes and assimilated into the culture.

According to their interpretation of scripture their only obligation would be to widows who are over sixty and who faithfully served their church.

Remember their not a Hospital Church and they brag about it, are they going to become one if you could just wave a wand and give them power over society?. What happens to those with Alzheimers or the severely handicapped or those who are retarded or the millions of elderly with beginning dementia and worn out bodies who cannot contribute to their society because their about to check out? What if your elderly not a christian and you can't afford to heat your dwelling? I guess your asking if they had the power what type of society would they have and could you call it Christian?

[dust (dust)]

All of this.....is why we need a SAVIOR. What we're really saying here (as it circles back) is that we cannot TRUST any other HEAD, except Christ, Himself, who had no agenda to "judge" the world, only "save" it.

Below is an excerpt from C.S. LEWIS, THe Screwtape Letters,

Senior Devil Screwtape to Junior devil

"I had not forgotten my promise to consider whether we make the patient an extreme patriot or extreme pacifist. All extremes expect extreme devotion to the Enemy (God) are to be encouraged...

"Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacificism as part of his religion. Then, let him under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then, quietly and gradually nurse him onto the stage at which the relgion becomes merely part of the "Cause" in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favor of the British war effort or of pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the world an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours...and the more "religious" (on those terms), the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cagefull down here."

Do you think this fits?

Dust

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

I heard one person in msi/en say that people fall into one of two categories: those that are assets and those that are liabilities. Thus the membership requirement of service. Once someone can not serve and they are no longer an asset to the church (due to illness, age, poverty), they no longer meet the membership requirements. When msi/en leaders are trying to start a new church or home group they look for "assets" - wealthy business men and women, healthy students, politicians... They stay clear of the "liabilities" saying that Jesus was very careful to select strong people as his disciples. He built his church with the strong and healthy so that is who they need to evangelize to as they build churches. Another said, they weed out the weak.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Dust yes and no. It takes all kinds. Sometimes it takes extremists to get the ball rolling, sometimes it takes the moderates to keep things balanced and prevent things from going too far out of wack.

Well lc_20 their reasoning is kind of funny they forget that strong people become old and weak it is only a matter of time. Obviously if Paul had not been physically strong he would not have been able to travel and endure the beatings and physical hardships.

Which reminds me! You know I had hoped that there would be many more reforms with this ministry. I can kind of understand why it did'nt happen with everything being justified by the total commitment thing. That aside how could they not have reformed the "This is not a hospital church" attitude. It is so undefensible and unchristian.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

lc_20, wow, that is just hogwash! Maybe Peter was strong physically but not spiritually, not until the Counselor (Holy Spirit) came at Pentecost. Jesus' disciples SCATTERED when He was taken prisoner. Saul, later Paul, was a zealous murderer before he was called by Jesus. He had a thorn in his flesh (which may have been physical or emotional, we don't know) that God allowed to remain, so that he had a constant reminder that his strength was in Jesus.

This is what the apostle Paul, a true, foundational apostle, said about strength and weakness (2 Cor 12:5-10):

I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Our strength is in the LORD JESUS ALONE. Statements about (worldly) "assets" and "strengths," which are the fruit of the tree, show the nature of the tree itself. It is not rooted in the REAL gospel. If one relies upon one's own strength or "assets" alone, then what need do we have for Jesus?

As Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."

blessings,
ulyankee

[ginger1 (ginger1)]

LC, whoever preach that, Does not know the gospel. It stated in the bible that Jesus and Peter themselves did not even have the money to pay TAXES ! Jesus even have to tell Peter to go fish to get some money to pay His tax and Peter.
So Peter here is considered as a Liability ! Instead of an asset for the Lord. Or even David ? did they forget about David's men ? Its a group of people who are thugs and thieves, Not exactly the people who the EN church would even hire.
Or even Paul himself who is a convict for the gospel.

If thats coming from Phil Bonasso, I would not be surprised since he has fired a pastor for his wife giving birth to a retarded daughter and needed a lot of attention. And Phil Bonasso is also not a thinking person.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

<font color="0000ff">“Ancient-Future” </font>

Bill - I may not be 100% accurate on this, but I believe that term was coined or developed by Dr. Robert E. Webber, prof. at Wheaton College and author of Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail. The "ancient-future" concept is also the main branding theme of the evangelical denomination Anglican Church in America (PKA A.M.I.A.) inspired by Webber's concept.

I heard Webber speak on the ancient-future topic in Florida 2 years ago. His premise is that many evangelical and charismatic Christians from both non-denominational churches and mainline denominations are returning to "ancient" forms of worship, i.e. "liturgical" worship combined with ("future") contemporary worship music and other contemporary forms of "doing church." Since his book was written 20 years ago and there has been a recent exodus of people from the Episcopal/Anglican church, his thesis is dated with some exceptions like in the AMIA.

IMHO, the use of that term (ancient-future) in this instance does not have anything to do with the occult.

peace,
aletheia



(Message edited by aletheia on January 03, 2006)

[aletheia (aletheia)]

P.S. Bill - when I mentioned liturgical worship in my post above, I was not at all referring to a return to Roman Catholic and E. Orthodox forms of worship and doctrine.

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

aletheia,

Thanks for the source info and the "Ancient-Future" premise. I first took a look at several lengthy articles on the Emergent Church Movement. I also visited Solomon's Porch and the Emergent Church youth group at Colonial Church of Edina. I was absolutely livid when the pastor at Colonial gave a sermon about why Christians should not judge. I can get the audio CD, but the point is that I have a couple of friends who regularly go there. Shortly after the sermon/admonition not to judge, this pastor sequentially brings in a different guest religious leader each week for several weeks. we're talking a Hindu, Jewish Rabbi, Universalist, etc. Each leader gives a sermon/talk on what his religion is all about. The Rabbi states orthodox belief that Jews are waiting for the Messiah.

So, you can clearly see that the pre-guest speaker sermon on not judging was made to quash any objections to the future religious indoctrination allowed by the leaders. Keep in mind that Colonial Church of Edina and Edina in general is one of the financially richest areas in Minnesota. In one episode, some guest speaker comes in and gives a sermon on the poverty of Christian and invokes the congregants to donate their expensive Gucci clothing, belts, watches you name it. Many of the congregants leave the service half-naked. My two friends were eyewitnesses to this. They saw congregants walking away outside with no shoes, etc.

But, using the tried-and-true heresy of quietism and "logical thinking hinders the work of the Holy Spirit" the Emergent Church leaders, like Maranatha, can get their congregants to believe just about anything.

The main reason I am responding to your comments is because when I played back the online short video clip (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week845/cover.html#) of an Emergent Church service within the PBS story, I saw a very large Egyptian winged God of Horus in the sanctuary. After seeing that and then thinking about the "Ancient-Future" theological idea with the Emergent Church coupled with the Rosicrucian connection that MCM and NOLR embraced through the Philadelphian Society, I believe there is a connection. Apostate Cindy Jacobs has made many public comments about "digging in ancient wells" that refers to ancient theological ideas that have been "buried" but are now valuable?

While I have no problem with studying occult (hidden) theological ideas and concepts from a historical viewpoint, I do object to leaders believing and implimenting these same concepts and integrating them so as to appear "new" and "God's new thing," etc.

The push for "Universal truth" and Ecumenicism has been around for hundreds of years. On the outside, the premise is to find common ground for all religions so they can converge mankind into a world where we all have universal peace, no wars, prosperity, etc. But to do so means that God's Holy Word must be leveled alongside Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Freemasonry, Roman Catholicism and all the rest of the "isms." This will always be untenable with Christianity since God sent His Son as the only and true means of salvation. To reimagine God as Sophia as the witches and warlocks want or to reimagine God as the En Sof as the Kabbalaists want or to reimagine God as Krishna as the Hari Krishnas want or to reimagine God as a "force" that can be manipulated by saying certain phrases like Mormons, Freemasons, Rosicrucians and New Order of the Latter Rain leaders are moving toward will always be unacceptable to the God of the Bible.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Bill, the "digging wells" thing goes further than redigging ancient teachings... it is called "synergy of the ages," otherwise known as necromancy (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/n/necromancy.html). It involves actually visiting the sites (http://www.openheaven.com/forums/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=690) and getting the anointing from their dead bones:

God said to me, ‘I need you to agree in prayer with Gordon Lindsay.’ I knew we weren’t supposed to communicate with the dead, and he’s been dead for 30 years. He said, ‘He’s dead, but his prayers are not. I can’t do what he asked me to do until this generation comes into agreement with him. I need the synergy of the ages.’ When I re-dug that well at the Wesleys’ I laid hold of something. I said, Where is the Lord God of John and Charles Wesley? I stretched out on the grave of David Brainerd, and I said, where is the Lord God of David Brainerd? If the dead bones of Elisha could raise the dead, there’s still anointing in those wells of the past. (from http://www.despn.org/chuckpierce.pdf)

I wonder if when Dutch Sheets went to John Wesley's grave, he figured out that John Wesley renounced Christian (Rosicrucian) mysticism grounded in the Kabbalah, especially after his exposure to Zinzendorf's Moravians' inner circle and learning what the source of their power REALLY was. Apparently not.

[aletheia (aletheia)]

<font color="0000ff">I do object to leaders believing and implimenting these same concepts and integrating them so as to appear "new" and "God's new thing," etc.</font> Bill, I agree with you - this is so frustrating to me after 30 years of watching naive Christians jump on every new bandwagon or "wave" (from one movement to another) that comes along. Some friends of ours couldn't believe that my husband and I didn't want to attend the school of the prophets, go see "gold dust," visit the Toronto and Brownsville revivals, attend Paul Cain conferences, on-and-on ad nauseum...

I'll never forget hearing Dutch Sheets ("<font color="0000ff">synergy of the ages</font>" - creepy!) preaching a so-so sermon unrelated to miracles, when all of a sudden he yelled "MIRACLES, MIRACLES, MIRACLES!!" The gullible crowd went crazy cheering, clapping and screaming...

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

"The gullible crowd went crazy cheering, clapping and screaming..."

The other evening I was watching TD Jakes pump up a huge crowd. After using a few metaphors about coming out of problems, he tells the audience to "turn to the person next to you and tell them, I'm coming out of problems (or whatever)..." Then he tells everybody to stretch and turn, something like a calisthenic exercise. So, everyone in this huge auditorium is turning and stretching and confessing, etc. TD Jakes hadn't really said anything of any spiritual value, but he did pump up the crowd with what is known as religious "enthusiasm" and the crowd went wild! Sadly, I realized that as a former charismatic, these tactics had been used on me for decades and all the time I equated movement and action and singing with power from the Holy Spirit.

When I started to witness Maranatha leader Bruce Harpel using the same tactics and then teaching false doctrines, I knew that the "enthusiasm" just couldn't be a result of the "Spirit moving."

You know, it is very hard for me to realize I had been manipulated by NOLR churches for decades and given them some of the best years of my life only to be cast out for asking pointed question.

I believe Dutch Sheets yelled, "MIRACLES, MIRACLES, MIRACLES!!" for several reasons, especially relating to what is called by Rice Broocks as the "Tipping Point." Another name for this phenomenon is the "100th-Monkey Theory." (http://pure-research.net/healing/light/monkey.html) In the NEW AGE MOVEMENT it is known be the name, HARMONIC CONVERGENCE. (http://www.2012.com.au/harmonic_convergence.html) It is the belief that if enough living beings can be persuaded to to something that they didn't do before, then the thing will become a de facto standard. We are creatures of habit and making a broad-based societal change isn't easy to impliment, especially when what is proposed has previously been rejected wholesale. The quest is to get a change implimented. Satan continually tries to re-package the same old heresies so the masses accept them.
*************************************
The Tipping Point

Every Nation in Our Generation: It is curious how simple things can change the world. Malcolm Gladwell, in his best-seller The Tipping Point, chronicled this phenomenon: “We need to prepare ourselves for the possibility that sometimes big changes follow from small events, and that sometimes these changes can happen very quickly.” Whether it’s a fashion craze, a crime wave, or a viral epidemic, the “tipping point” is the moment of critical mass, the threshold or boiling point where a minor trend suddenly surges to become a significant movement. And while the kingdom of heaven is like leaven that works its way incrementally throughout the earth , there are moments – these tipping points – when either an individual or an entire culture can be suddenly transformed for the glory of God. (excerpted from Every Nation in Our Generation)
********************************************
With the NOLR, Freemasons and Rosicrucians, there is a definite documentable belief of a universal religion where all religions must come together so as to effect an entry into a NEW AGE. This NEW AGE is to be brought about through a forced UNIVERSAL "CHRIST" CONSCIOUSNESS i.e. that everyone has a "Christ" inside. This is similar to Intel's logo, "Intel Inside." The bible state that there is "no good thing in man" and that he is doomed to hell save for the acceptance of what Jesus Christ did on the cross. MCM/ENC's hidden belief is the old lie that you can become a "Christ" through a UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS of Christ via discipleship/shepherding aka "submission to the new [age] apostles and prophets" or "submission to apostolic authority." Some of these false leaders will do anything in their power, including stealing, killing, cursing and lying to keep members from knowing the their agenda.

MCM/ENC host seminars promoting Creationism and they are against the Theory of Evolution, yet they practice using their congregants in a huge Alchemystical Kabbalah-based Experiment toward human spiritual evolution using "Jesus Christ" as a metaphorical tool to become a corporate deity aka the "Many-Membered Manchild", the "Corporate Christ" or in 17th century terms, the "Elias Artista."

The "frogs" don't notice that the heat is gradually raised in the pan until it's too late!

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

<ribbit!!>

blessings,
ulyankee

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

Knox, Ronald A. Enthusiasm: A Chapter in the History of Religion With Special Reference to the XVII and XVIII Centuries (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1962

Ennemoser, Joseph. History of Magic, transl. from German by William Howitt, 2 vols. (London: Bohn, 1854).

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

"We need legislation aimed at moving jobs into the inner-cities,..."

Titus, I think EN leaders would agree with you on this. In my notes it specifies that we should determine peoples abilities and get work for the "able". I think the difference here is "we" is the church instead of Government legislation. My only concern is the price these "able" would have to pay for this help if we were to go to their reduced government increased church.

I have a few hand written notes in my worldview notes related to slavery. I hesitated to post them because they are my notes on what I heard and not anything they actually put into writting. But, basically what is in my notes is that slavery is condemned today but it was accepted throughout history, in Jesus day and through the 1800's. What I remember being said around that was that people would be slaves for 7 years and then they would be offered their freedoms. Many times the families they were serving were so good to them that they would not want to leave at this point. So, I am wondering if what they were getting at is that slavery would not be a problem if the families being served were good christian families ie slaves serving the church. It would be interesting to find out if Brett Fuller is aligned with these teachings. I am wondering if in his efforts to make restitution for slavery in the US, he is repenting of slavery in general or just how it was done in the US. I agree that this teaching is more inline with Kingship than democracy - with church leaders being kings and the poor being their slaves.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Christian Reconstruction and Slavery:

<font color="ff0000">The (Biblical) Law here is humane and also unsentimental. It recognizes that some people are by nature slaves and will always be so. It both requires that they be dealt with in a godly manner and also that the slave recognizes his position and accepts it with grace.

Every seven years, there was a cancellation of debt. Since the unbeliever is by nature a slave, he is not released from debt (Deuteronomy 15:1-6). A thief who did not make restitution was sold as a slave (Exodus 22:3). A man could also be sold for debt (Deuteronomy 15:12). The servitude ceased when labor had been performed equivalent to the amount which would have been required to make restitution, and it is limited to six years. A man could renounce his liberty and make himself a slave. He was then set free on the sabbath year. If he chose the security of slavery, his ear was pierced, to indicate that he was now like a woman, permanently in subjection, and he remained a slave (Exodus 21:5-7). Since unbelievers are by nature slaves, they could be held as life-long slaves without this formality (Leviticus 25:44-45).</font>

R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973).

<font color="ff0000">The private ownership of slave labor in the American South has been the subject of extensive distortion. The Negroes were slaves to their tribal heads in Africa, or prisoner-slaves of other tribes. The monetary unit in black Africa was man, the slave. The Negro moved from an especially harsh slavery, which included cannibalism, to a milder form. Much is said about the horrors of the slave ships, many of which were very bad, but it is important to remember that slaves were valuable cargo and hence property normally handled with consideration. A Canadian legislative commission member in 1847 reported that the Irish immigrants were being transported on ships loaded with twice as many passengers as the ship should hold, huddled down between decks, with too little food and water, and in conditions "as bad as the slave trade." The condition of the Irish immigrants on arrival was far worse than that of slaves: they had no master to feed and clothe them or to provide shelter. The Irish moved from semi-slavery in Ireland to freedom in America only a few years before the Negro gained emancipation. After a century and a quarter, or less, the Irish are a leading power in the United States, and the Negroes remain on the lowest strata. The basic difference between the Irish and the Negro has not been color: it has been character. The Negroes demand more aid, i.e., more slavery and slave-care, and dwell on their sufferings.</font>

R.J. Rushdoony, Politics of Guilt and Pity (Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, [1970] 1978), pp 3-4, 19, 25.

<font color="ff0000">The bible permits slavery. This statement will come as a shock to most people. The laws in the Bible concerning slavery have very seldom been studied, much less preached upon. But the biblical laws concerning slavery are among the most beneficent in all the Bible....
1. Obtaining slaves. Kidnapping is forbidden as a method of acquiring slaves, and deserves capital punishment (Exodus 21:16). Basically, there are only four legal ways to get slaves. They may be purchased (Leviticus 25:44-46), captured in war (Numbers 31:32-35; Deuteronomy 21:10-14), enslaved as punishment for theft (Exodus 22:1-3), or enslaved to pay off debts (Leviticus 25:39; Exodus 21:7). We should especially note God's merciful justice here. Heathen slaves who were purchased or captured in war were actually favored by this law, since It placed them in contact with believers. They received the relatively lenient treatment of the biblical slavery regulations, and they were also able to hear the liberating message of the gospel....

2. The care of slaves Slaves have no economic incentive to work, since they cannot improve their situation regardless of how hard they labor. Therefore the master is allowed to provide that incentive by beating them (Exodus 21:20-27). Obviously, the slave is not regarded as having equal rights as a free man. But this very fact would keep a man from entering slavery too hastily. Slavery has certain benefits (job security, etc.), but it has serious drawbacks as well. Slavery was not allowed to become irresponsible welfare or paternalism. The law limited the master, however. If he murdered his slave, he was executed (Exodus 21:20). On the other hand, if the slave survived a beating and died a day or two later, there was no punishment (Exodus 21:21); there was no evidence that the master had actually intended to murder him. Again, this risk was a serious incentive against enslaving oneself. God did not want men to heedlessly abandon their freedom, and this law would tend to keep men working hard and living responsibly in order to avoid the threat of losing their liberty and civil rights. Relatively minor but permanent injuries (such as the loss of an eye or a tooth) resulted in the slave's freedom (Exodus 21:26-27). This was also an economic incentive to keep the master from hitting the slave in the face, since a heavy blow could mean the loss of his "investment." Naturally, this law protected slaves from severe mutilation.</font>

David Chilton, Productive Christians in an Age of Guilt Manipulators (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1981), pp. 61-62.

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Here's some sources for you Titus re: Wesley &amp; the Moravians:

from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley):

<font color="ff0000">Late in 1739 Wesley broke with the Moravians in London. Wesley had helped them organize the Fetter Lane Society; and those converted by his preaching and that of his brother and Whitefield had become members of their bands. But finding, as he said, that they had fallen into heresies, especially quietism, he decided to form his own followers into a separate society. "Thus," he wrote, "without any previous plan, began the Methodist Society in England." Similar societies were soon formed in Bristol and Kingswood, and wherever Wesley and his friends made converts.</font>

Also see: here (http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/26-30/27.3.htm) - After becoming acquainted with the Moravians, Wesley investigated the teachings of the Pietists - came to disagree with them over "Christian" kabbalistic mysticism ie Jacob Boheme.

Also see here (http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/BlakeFull.html) for an academic paper discussing the Fetter Lane Society's practice of kabbalistic techniques during this period. Note this is quite graphic.

There's another source, a pamphlet Wesley wrote, but that's not available online.

Also, there's an additional pamphlet written by George Whitefield, who got into some of their practices, though not in the lurid detail as one might find discussed today: <u>An expostulatory letter addressed to Nicholas Lewis, Count Zinzendorff, and lord advocate of the Unitas Fratrum. By G. Whitefield, A.B. late of Pembroke College Oxford; and Chaplain to the Right Hon. the Countess of Huntingdon.</u>

Finally, Henry Rimius discussed other related Moravian practices, including heavy shepherding and ARRANGED MARRIAGE, in <u>A candid narrative of the rise and progress of the Herrnhuters.</u>

[ulyankee (ulyankee)]

Titus, here's one more (http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/wesley_journal/vol4/The%20Ninth%20Part%20Section%202.htm) for you - quotes from Wesley's journal:

<font color="ff0000">This week I read over Mr. Rimius's Candid Narrative.[ Henry Rimius (W.H.S. vol. iv. p. 80). A Candid Narrative of the Rise and Progress of the Herrnhuters, commonly called Moravians, tr Unitas Fratrum; London, 1753See Gentleman: s Mag. 1753, p 236; also references in Tyerman's Wesley, vol. ii. p. 156,and Whitefield, vol. ii. p. 301] It informed me of nothing new. I still think several of the inconsiderable members of that community are upright; but I fear their governors ' wax worse and worse, having their conscience seared as with a hot iron.' [. . .]

I found the town much alarmed with Mr. Rimius's Narrative[Heber, in his Bampton Lecture, says: ' The calumnies of Rimius and Stinstra against the Moravian Brethren are cases in point. No one now believes them. Yet they could deceive even Warburton.' (Quoted in D'Israeli's Curiosities of Literature, vol. iii. p. 145.)] and Mr. Whitefield's Letter to Count Zinzendorf [G. Whitefield's Expostulatory Letter to Count Zinzendorf, &amp;c. See Tyerman's Whitefield, vol. ii. p. 301.]. It seems, indeed, that God is hastening to bring to light those hidden works of darkness. And undoubtedly none who reads those tracts with any degree of impartiality will ever more (unless he be himself under a strong delusion) go near the tents of those wicked men. [. . .]

Tues. 19.-Mr. Whitefield showed me the letters he had lately received from the Count, Cossart,[ Henry Frederick Cossart, a Moravian pioneer. See W.H.S. vol. iii. p. 149; Moravian Messenger, 1876, p. 247.] P. Bohler, and James Hutton.[ For their letters see Memoirs o4James Hutton, pp. 304, 305.] I was amazed. Either furious anger or settled contempt breathed in every one of them.[ ' Method with the chief in any sect is -to treat with a sovereign contempt or VOL. IV to attack so that their hearts quake" (Memoirs of James Hutton, p. 568, No. ix)] Were they ashamed after all the abominations they had committed? No; they were not ashamed: they turned the tables upon Mr. Whitefield. Cossart protested before God he had never made Lynde any offer at all. The Count blustered, like himself, and roundly averred he could say something if he would. James Hutton said flat,' You have more than diabolical impudence: I believe the devil himself has not so much." [. . .]

I read over Andrew Frey's [See W.H.S. vol. iv. p. 81; Tyerman's Oxford Meth. p. 136; Whitefield,vol. ii. p. 308.] reasons for leaving the Brethren. Most of what he says I knew before; yet I cannot speak of them in the manner which he does. I pity them too much to be bitter against them.</font>

[Note: Andrew Frey is the former Moravian who revealed their kabbalistic marriage practices in lurid detail. German title is <u>Andreas Freyen seine Declaration.</u> Even Moravian historian JE Hutton (http://www.everydaycounselor.com/hutton/ii13.htm) acknowledged that Frey's tale had merit.]

(Message edited by ulyankee on January 05, 2006)

[aletheia (aletheia)]

Ulyankee - tx for the info. in your two posts above.

Regarding R.B.'s worldview, he either had a change of heart or is trying desperately to redeem his image - see his Nov. 2005 article "God's Heart for People" here: http://www.ricebroocks.com/content/view/19/31/

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

aletheia, I heard Rice tell the toilet brush story many times. It is not a change of heart. It is an old story. After the new apostolic reformation, the next move of God was to enpower God's people to minister to people. I will try to find documentation of that in my vli notes. RB is still king in his worldview.

[lc_20 (lc_20)]

ulyankee - thanks for the quotes related to slavery. I wonder if that is why these guys like to build large buildings way over budget and try to convince their congregations that they are responsible for living a sacrificial life to pay the debt. It is a form of slavery. Thank God we live in a country where we can walk away from pastors like that.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

aletheia wrote: I'll never forget hearing Dutch Sheets ("synergy of the ages" - creepy!) preaching a so-so sermon unrelated to miracles, when all of a sudden he yelled "MIRACLES, MIRACLES, MIRACLES!!" The gullible crowd went crazy cheering, clapping and screaming...

Bill responded with: I believe Dutch Sheets yelled, "MIRACLES, MIRACLES, MIRACLES!!" for several reasons, especially relating to what is called by Rice Broocks as the "Tipping Point." Another name for this phenomenon is the "100th-Monkey Theory."

I don't think Dutch was trying to do something sinister in that situation even though some of the stuff he preaches about sounds like it is. To me it sounds like Dutch had a clunker of a sermon going and decided to stir things up a bit by shouting "Miracles, Miracles, Miracles"- He knew the response he was going to get it was just a manipulative trick to deal with his so-so sermon it sounds like. I am sure there are lots of little manipulative techniques you can use. I know Rusty Russell use to like to get the crowd laughing with funny stories, jokes, funny testimonies in a stand up comic sort of way. Then within a very short time he got deathly serious with foreboding stories or actions. I saw this happen several times and I thought it was manipulative and border line. To take people from a light, friendly laughing state and then to a deathly serious foreboding state within seconds and you know your going to do that? it seems to be kind of a manipulative trick just like yelling "Miracles" but far worse. I wonder what God thinks of that, is it alright?

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40days40years,

"To me it sounds like Dutch had a clunker of a sermon going and decided to stir things up a bit by shouting "Miracles, Miracles, Miracles""

If you read excerpts of theosophist Annie Besant's book on Path to Discipleship, you will see her telling the reader to "declare" things 3 times in the morning like, "I will be rich today" or whatever. Dutch Sheets is simply following along the same neoplatonic path and proving that he is not a Christian.

titus,

I purchased the 2-vol. set of this book. It was worth every nickel of the $50.00 I paid for them. It have several chapters on Jane Lead, Jacob Boehme and the Philadelphian "witches".

Enthusiasm has been used by the devil's minions for centuries to jack open a breach in a person's soul through music mysticism and crowd manipilation. Once the soul is made vulnerable, such as with Maranatha/Every Nation, the leaders place false doctrines in your mind. Then, when you later catch on and opject to what they believed and practiced, they tell you that, "You've got a root of bitterness." What they are really saying is,

"Well, you finally figured out that I'm a Luciferian -- an agent of the devil."

Judgment on Maranatha / Every Nation from God soon.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

You guys are insinuating that their worship services are occultic. I don't buy it. Have these guys ever been manipulative with their use of worship? Sure they have because they are a manipulative bunch without even knowing it much of the time. If you sing a song about Joels army out of context maybe you don't even know what the song means I guess that can be manipulative (but remember leadership thinks it is accurate so maybe it is not manipulation, every church sings songs to convey their theological view). I remember at MLTS when Bob Weiner was told by a guest speaker on the podium that a song was out of context I think it was the "Blow the trumpet in Zion" song? Bob acknowledged what the guy said but had had us sing the song anyway because it was a good song and he liked it.

You can worship God and then at the quiet period at the end of the songs you could definatly slip in a manipulative word and I am sure it has happened. Does that mean all Words from the Lord have got to be forbidden at the end of worship to avoid manipulation? Should we get rid of all musical instruments Bill? They do tend to allow for manipulation. That new Steven Spielberg movie has lots of radio adds playing advertising the Munich movie where men are discussing hunting down the Munich terrorists. In the background are a hundred violins playing to convey a mood, sheer manipulation. When somebody gives a word and you have a guitar playing or piano tinkling in the background it is the same thing but is it occultic? People know they are being manipulated to a certain extent.

African American worship services can be very fleshly and manipulative too, far more so in my opinion. The people are not dumb they know it is manipulative and fleshy and they love it like that. So are they being manipulated? I don't know. Are you going to completly renounce their worship services to? You guys have blessed me and I appreciate the information you provide but your going to far I think. Please be careful.

God Bless you!! 3 times-- (o.k the 3 times part was a joke I don't want you to think I'm cursing you)



(Message edited by 40days40years on January 06, 2006)

[coppertree (coppertree)]

Hi40/40, I have seen great and wonderful worship in this group. More than once I have said that, young, baby Christians, and those that are naive and love our Father. This is the bad part of this, people that truly love God and what to know Him are caught. But I think they give grace to the movement.And from what happened to me that one has to violate their conscience when they do see. They can go on, or stop and go a new way. I hope this helps.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Thank you copper what you say does help some and I agree with what you say. I know many were hurt and I understand that. Titus and Bill have turned away from the charismatic way of doing things and that is fine and I understand their fears and why they might distance themselves. However during worship I felt something that I believe is the Lord and I don't see what is so wrong with charismatic worship and song compared to the dead church hymns of my youth. I know Bill has agreed with me in the past that there is God and another spirit at work in Maranatha. I never felt the worship was the problem at Maranatha even though the control touched it. Is a person during worship more vulnerable? for sure but so much so at a Maranatha/MSI/EN meeting that they are absolute putty in the hands of leadership that are trying to worship God also?

I would like to ask Bill and Titus if either of you believe you felt the Spirit of God in a Maranatha/MSI/EN worship service? I am disturbed I am not going to say you guys are not of God but this thing is puzzling and kind of distressing to me.

(Message edited by 40days40years on January 07, 2006)

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

"Are you going to completly renounce their worship services to?"

No, but I do believe we need to shave the heads of the leaders flat and then superglue their skulls to the bottom of the chandeliers. Then simply tell them,

"OK, you heretics want to play Illuminatti? Great, then glow your brains out because you'll be hanging around for a while!!" http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Back to the issue of music: keep in mind that I come from a Charismatic background. Initially when I first came to Maranatha, I was *very* blessed with the music. Initially, God and the music were instrumental in some healing I needed from a rather precarious background I had before coming to MCM.

Also keep in mind that there comes a time of healing and growth that can take place while in any church -- even a cult such as Maranatha. The key is where a person's heart and doctrine are in relation to God and the Bible. When one is forgiven much, they can become zealous to make sure everyone else has just such a chance to experience the same forgiveness unhindered by false leaders. If the Holy Spirit moves at Maranatha/ENC or in other NOLR occult traps, it is *in spite of* the demonic leaders. You get strong enough to challenge the enemy and you enter into legitimate spiritual warfare. Such is the case with the occult doctrines I discovered in the NOLR. If I were an archeologist on a dig, I would have dug up some ancient Egyptian box containing occult magical books and the spirits that went with them. Each and every one of us can be duped into *activating* false doctrines and the demons behind them. I like to think of false doctrines as live viruses. Some are more deadly than others.

Music remains a beatiful door to enter into worshipping God, including the use of instruments as per Psalms 150. That's not the issue here and I'd be the that man on earth to condemn godly music.

But mix wonderful Christian music with the false doctrinal lyrics such as is continually being done by the NOLR and whatever is offered up tio the Lord become a stench and very vile. I have several tracts and articles on this issue, but since my main focus is on the historical roots of this covert movement and how it relates to their ongoing dominionism in the 21st century, I wish to again relate what the early NOLR leader in North Battleford thought about music as a pythagoream key to unlock the mysteries of God.

Reg Layzell read this verse:

Psalms 22:3
"But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel."

In another version, it says that God inhabits the praises of His people.

So, in classic alchemystical reasoning, Layzell figures that *if* he praise God long enough, then God will have to inhabit him. Since that is not what the scripture really means, but Reg Layzell demands to be inhabited by God, he gets what he has demanded! But which 'God'???? Satan is the "god of this world" and God says,

Isa 57:15
"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

So, Reg Layzell dances and sings FOR HOURS by himself in the sancutary until he gets a manifestation, which he did. Of course some who would read this might recollect the very same thing happening at the Brownsville Revival and the NOLR counterpart -- the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship -- home of the infamous "Toronto Blessing." They sing and sing and sing until fatigue sets in and a mild catatonic state develops in the participants. Then the false doctrines are preached followed by a laying on of hands and continual prophetic declarations.

Keep in mind that one can worship God with some of the very same music and afterword hear a legitimate sermon/message and walk out refreshed and sound. It's all how music is being used. Is worship music being used as a method of causing the participants to enter into a state of altered consciousness so they will accept the false doctrines they previously rejected? In Latter Rain churches, music is a tool of the devil towards this end. Maranatha uses music in such a way as to speed up the process of the adept becoming a "Christ." Yet, it is so subtle. Anyone can witness Rice Broocks or Bruce Harpel worshipping, but what is music to them? That's what the congregants need to find out.

A video to watch that exposes classic mystery school music mysticism is from Rick Joyner's MorningStar. They get occult manifestations right in these videos. The adepts at the Oracle at Delphi would be jealous of Don Potter's occult worship at the special Davidic "Warfare" series they host every now and then.

Worship God with a clean heart that is made clean by the Word.

--Bill

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Bill you said: 40/40,

"Are you going to completly renounce their worship services to?"

No, but I do believe we need to shave the heads of the leaders flat and then superglue their skulls to the bottom of the chandeliers. Then simply tell them,

"OK, you heretics want to play Illuminatti? Great, then glow your brains out because you'll be hanging around for a while!!"

Fair enough Bill I apologize but the way you word things at times? You make it seem like I have to choose and say all my experiences were from Satan.

PS do you really think the leaders even know what the Illuminatti is? You make these guys seem so damn smart and clever and evil. I tend to think their just clueless control freaks. I will confess that I am wrong frequently.

[40days40years (40days40years)]

Bill you said: So, in classic alchemystical reasoning, Layzell figures that *if* he praise God long enough, then God will have to inhabit him. Since that is not what the scripture really means, but Reg Layzell demands to be inhabited by God, he gets what he has demanded! But which 'God'???? Satan is the "god of this world"

I guess they worshipped God for hours in Toronto and I remember some times in Marantatha we would worship a looooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggg time waiting for Gods presence. I know some of the Hasidics do the same and get manifestations.

On the same token God wants people to persevere I am sure he does not want us to be McDonalds christians. I am sure some bored youngsters would love to use the line. Don't worship to long its demonic http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif - lets go!

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

40/40,

"do you really think the leaders even know what the Illuminatti is? You make these guys seem so damn smart and clever and evil. I tend to think their just clueless control freaks."

You know, this statement has come up every now and then for the last 5 years.

1) Some say these leaders do not have the intellectual capacity to carry out the whole coordinated scheme. When I state that William Branham knew about Jane Lead people like Eric Pement state that it just isn't possible since WB comes across as an uneducated hillbilly. My answer is that even uneducated hillbillies can read or be taught heresy and have the ability to process to some degree what they learn. Then, in the case with WB, they preach the heresy to the best of their understanding with sincerety since they, with sincerety, believe the heresy with all their heart.

2) Constance Cumbey (http://www.cumbey.blogspot.com/) has been exposing the NEW AGE MOVEMENT for well over 21 years. When she first published her books, "HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW: The New Age Movement and our Coming Age of Barbarism (1983) and "A PLANNED DECEPTION: The Staging of a New Age Messiah (1986) she would get the same accusation i.e. "The New Agers just can't be as coordinated in bringing about the occult as you portray them. They just aren't that smart."

When you coordinate your life and theology with satan, the god of this world, you do the works of your father. Likewise, when you become a Christian
you tagteam with God and you do the works of your Father in heaven. The coordination in each camp is governed by God and the devil. Two sides, one spiritual war.

Maranatha/Every Nation leaders willfully chose to accept and promote the very doctrines of demons that led to the expulsion of Lucifer. It is they who have chosen rebellion and they lead others to rebel against God. They have no choice but to do the works of the devil as demonstrated with well over 3 decades of abuse. These leaders cannot change since God is holding them in their error:

Ps 55:19
God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

You say, "do you really think the leaders even know what the Illuminatti is?"

Maybe not all, but the top dogs surely do and they spell it out in speeches like the one Jim Lafoon gave at the 2004-2005 MSI World Conference. That was classical Illuminatti elitist dogma. If you are looking for evidence, then you can avail yourself of none better.

"I remember some times in Marantatha we would worship a looooooooonnnnnnnnnggggggg time waiting for Gods presence."

Sounds like a formula, doesn't it?

If one worships a long time
Then you will be inhabited by God and/or obtain His presence.

In neoplatonism, everything is formula-oriented. It is cause and effect to "obtain the promises" (manifestations). BAG and Toronto were classical examples of this. They skryed down more demon spirits in the name of God in that place than you can imagine. I was an eyewitness to Brownsville A/G. There were formal talks behind the schenes between Bill Hamon's Christian Int'l and Brownsville A/G leaders to merge. It ended when the top Brownsville leaders refused to come under A/G authority. This was yet another awful example of the A/G's continual playing around with the NOLR doctrines and NOLR people they had formerly rejected in 1949. It seems as those top A/G leaders would rather allow their congregants to be human guinea pigs in NOLR alchemystical experiments than to stick with the Word of God and not repeat historically documented sorcery and enthusiasm. I used to be an A/G member too. Today, I have to sadly report to anyone who asks that many A/G leaders cannot be trusted. How many "Jim Bakker" type swindles and heresies can A/G members endure before they wake up and do formal theological and historical studies??

"You make it seem like I have to choose and say all my experiences were from Satan."

I'm saying we need to take a look at past experiences and analyze them to see if they really were legitimate in light of the overall agenda we now are keenly aware. If we don't, we go on another rollercoaster ride to NOLR apostasy. I want off that ride, how about you?

[philiprosenthal]

With regard to the question at the top, I can't vouch for everything that is taught in EveryNation, but what I heard in His People in the period 1989-2003 was substantially similar to what is taught in mainstream Christian circles on Christian worldview - such as the writings of Abraham Kuyper, Francis Schaeffer, David Noebel. The authors of the EveryNation Leadership institute material also subscribe to this mainstream worldview and I know them personally. You may not agree with it, but it is mainstream historic Christian teaching - particularly within Calvinist leaning churches - although they are not strictly Calvinist.

I don't think this is an issue worth attacking EveryNation on. In my view, His Peoples only weakness on this issue is that for many years they taught too much biblical worldview and neglected other topics. Since the EveryNation takeover of His People, there has been the opposite problem. Christian worldview has been neglected in favour of discipleship teaching and the new generation is ignorant of much of it. I argue lets be balanced on different subjects.

[hewrote]

%ALL OR NONE%

Numbers 9:11-13

11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow ALL the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.