Current EN Member

[aroundtheblock]

Greetings all.

First of all I would like to say that I have been looking through these posts for about a month or so and have found the discussions very interesting and useful. I think especially useful for those that are recovering from the abuses they have encountered in some of the EN churches. The posts from Ginger and Ulyankee have been very informative as well.

I guess my reason for posting is that I need some help. I'm currently compiling a document that tries to detail, as factually as possible, some of the information about the financial issues and authoritative abuses mentioned here on these boards. From what I have read, there is a wealth (pardon the pun) of information here and I would like some insight on how to structure the topics in a way that conveys facts as much as possible. There seems to be a lot of people here that have had extensive dealings with different portions of the EN organization and I believe their input would be quite valuable.

Since this is my first post I don't know what type of response I'm going to get. I do know that some of the hardships that people have discussed on these boards are very real and very important. I also know that there are people (and pastors) within EN that are God-fearing and are wanting to do His will in every aspect of their lives. I guess I'm somewhat caught in the middle between these two views.

Thanks for reading.

In the Race,

[bill_mack]

aroundtheblock,

Firstly, are you some sort of college student doing this for your graduate research project. Don't get me wrong here, you can glean alot of info and I admire you for thinking this through and deciding how you'd like to structure things for the biggest impact and best transaction of knowledge.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Although no one talks about it, I'd spell out the 501(c)3 tax exempt structure for non-profits and show that there is alot of opportunity for financial scandals.

2) Then spell out the hidden theology that the bad guys are into. Some of the doctrines for Maranatha are, "There's no difference between Kings and Priests and likewise no difference between the sacred and secular." This translates to the belief of that Jesus Second Coming happens by revelation in one's mind as opposed to the literal coming with clouds per Rev. 3. For them, now that Jesus comes as philosophical light, the false leaders believe that He comes to rule and reign through their leadership aka the "apostles and prophets." This spells Reconstruction/Dominionism and that means financial takeovers of everything they can get there greedy hands on!!!

Since for them, there's no difference between the sacred and secular, they leverage the "for-profit" corporations with the "non-profit" corps and front organizations they set up. Did you make a profit in Whataburger. Great! Time to get a tax writeoff and launder the profits through your 501(c)3 non-profit (that you also are on the board of directors) and take a salary from both!!!

Since the IRS rules state that churches don't have to report things, their religious compound becomes a "black hole" that no one can touch short of a Federal inquiry via complaints.

3) Spell out how they twist scripture and use the term "Spiritual Covering" to really act as a Protection racket i.e. "you need to give 10-percent to use as your "spiritual authority" or bad spiritual stuff will happen to you" etc. etc.

4) We now also have legal covenant/proposals for church takeovers so you can use these in your report as well.

How's that for starters?

-Bill

[lc_20]

aroundtheblock,
Welcome. If you are serious about your research, you should probably try to contact key players within EN directly for interviews or tapes of messages. I would start with Greg Feste. He has several taped sermons. He was a welcome guest in many EN churches where he preached these messages. Most EN churches sell his tapes. If you can't get them through your church, you may be able to get some contact info from your pastor. Since, it seems from your thread title, that you are a current member, you can also research whatever your churches current fundrasing program is about. Look at it's history, contact people within your church, people who have recently left, people who left 5 years ago... After I got out, I got contacted by several people who had left years earlier. When they told me their stories, I was amazed at the similarities of the fundraising techniques. Also, ask your church leadership about their accountability, how much money is coming in from tithes, where is the money going... My guess is you will quickly start seeing what we have been talking about as you start asking questions within your own church. I think you will have much more success starting from within your own church since there is the barrier of the trust factor on the internet. I wish you success in your research. God bless.

[ginger1]

Race,

The two communique that came out from Nashville say most of it, Though they sugar coated it. The first communique that came out was they could not even balance their books.(sugar coated) . Then I have posted most of the money from the World Partner and the entire tithes of the worldwide churches went straight to their pockets, this showed up in the second communique that Phil Bonasso is overpaid of 66% and Rice at 30%. Phil also has misuse the corporate credit card by $22,000. As expected, Phil and Rice is not going to pay back the money which they have both taken as salary. Phil will only pay the $22,000.

As I have posted before, back in '98, Phil Bonasso was giving an annual party to VCM donors. And they showed that 75% of the money went straight to the administrative cost and only 25% went to VCM. So we expect that the same thing happened to World partner. According to the last January Palm Spring meeting, less than $500,000 went to the missions, so our guess the World Partner actual revenue would be around from $2.5 million to $3 million a year.

Knowing also how Phil Bonasso work, the entire worldwide tithes went straight to their pockets. None of it went to missions.

We also have based it on their mortgages, Phil should be making AT LEAST $600K to qualify for his homeloan. And Rice at $800K to qualify for their homeloan. Based also on the communique, Phil is also taking money from the Honorarium.
Also he took a lot of money from the equity of the church in PV, plus he is getting money in extortion from the Polus church at $4000 a month.

So you are looking at $800 K for Phil. Question to you is that do you think Rice would want Phil to make more money than him ?

based also on Jim Lafoon mortgage, he should be making at least $225 K a year.

[ginger1]

ALSO just to add, Phil Bonasso did ADMIT his base pay is at $603 K a year. This does not include his wife's salary. Which is a big surprised for us after reading the communique.

[jesusisawesome]

And I used to ride the bus from LA to Palos Verdes to "serve" Phil and Karen. Living in the staff house, barely making ends meet, buying the cheapest food, my schedule wrapped around their schedule . . . all of this makes me want to vommit now. How many naive students will be taken advantage of before the leadership is FINALLY AND TRULY called to accountability?

[ginger1]

Karen's "Women In Network" ministry, back then was I believe only ten members or less. I do wonder how much EN is paying her all these years for that much members ?

[aroundtheblock]

Thank you all for the different suggestions and factoids. This is the type of stuff I think would be handy to have in one concise document. My thinking is to have a section devoted to the different leaders that have financial issues over their heads. I believe rounding up as many concrete facts as possible (such as the communiques) is the way to go. I don't think it will be useful to discuss theological issues that can be subject to different interpretations. The people that so far I think should to be looked at are Phil, Rice, and Feste.
Like I said before, I am a current member and to some degree this feels a little weird to be probing some people that I feel have imparted life into my spiritual walk (except Feste-I just heard him once). But I keep on coming back to the words of my first EN pastor whose teaching helped me come out of some weird sheparding stuff I experienced in a different ministry. He said that as members we must take ownership for this movement so that it doesn't become about just the most charismatic leader-types. These words have stuck with me throughout the years and I feel that they are quite appropriate under the current circumstances. So please keep on directing me towards those facts that will try and shed as much light on this situation.

Ginger: Do you know where Phil stated his annual salary? Also, are there other places to find out salary information?

[former_en_pastor]

It is very difficult to determine the total salary of any of the EN leaders. Their income is derived from a variety of sources, and some of those sources do not have to publicly report salary information. 501(c)3s that have to submit annual Form 990s must include salary information on the Form 990s. Many ministries, including Champions for Christ, are 501(c)3s that submit 990s. That's how we found out that in 2004, Brett Fuller received $90,000, Rice received $76,000, Phil B. received $20,500, Tony Boselli received $75,000 and Robert Sherman recieved $120,400 from Champions for Christ.

Churches, even though they are 501(c)3s, do not have to submit 990s. Therefore, there is no public record of church staff salaries. Obviously, many EN pastors receive a primary portion of their salaries from their church, and possibly other churches.

EN pastors have also established ministries that they have defined as churches even though they are not a church. For instance, Brett Fuller established two ministries as churches: Grace Corporate Services, and Grace Ministries, which are not churches as we would define them - locations where people come together regularly for hearing the word, praise and worship and prayer. So Brett may very well be drawing salaries from those ministries, but since he legally established them as churches, he does not have to publicly report the income through the submittal of Form 990s.

So these EN leaders draw income from their churches that do not submit 990s, from ministries that do not submit 990s ("churches"), and from ministries that do submit 990s. On top of that, these leaders also receive substantial "love offerings" when they are guest speakers ($2,500-$7,500 from the normal EN churches - probably much more from HP, when it was very large).

Even their IRS personal tax forms do not include all of their income. Housing allowances are not included on their W-2s as income, even though those housing allowances can be very substantial. For instance, Rick and Donna Shelton's housing allowance was $176,000 per year for a $650,000 house and this amount was not included on their W-2s. I'm sure that Rice's, Brett's, Phil's, Jim L's, Ron L's, and the others have housing allowances that would make your head spin. Phil B had a $2million house. It wouldn't surprise me at all if his housing allowance was $25,000 or more per month. Housing allowances are tax free, that's why they do not show up on the W-2s.

So Ginger's estimate of Phil's salary may be low. There are many pots of money out there from which EN leadership can withdraw funds for their salaries.

[ulyankee]

aroundtheblock, I believe Phil B's salary was discussed at the Palm Springs meeting back in January. The salary cuts were announced in a later communique. 2/3 of $600K is still $200K. According to that same communique (http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=documents&action=display&thread=11 47468358) post-Palm Springs, Phil B's position with the ministry is going to be reevaluated in August.

All the communiques are posted here (http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=documents), with the exception of the most recent announcement re: Rice Broocks which is now posted on EN's website (http://www.everynation.org/en/news/steve-murrell-new-president-of-every-nation.html).

[ginger1]

around the block, The way they discussed Phil Bonasso salary is verbal. So you wont find it anywhere. Its not on tape either. He was confronted. So the best thing is to check their homes, how much do they qualify for. According to public record, Phil B should be making at least $600K,to pay for his monthly mortgage, which when he was confronted, thats what he stated. Thats just based pay.

Brett Fuller stated, he refused to disclose his salary during the Palm Spring meeting.
Ulyankee, can you check his mortgage ? how much should he be making to qualify for that home ?

[40days40years]

Are you sure Phil verbally stated 600k? I heard this before I just have a hard time believing it. Those are antichrist type of wages for a beginning christian ministry. Sorry that sounds harsh but how else would you word it if it is true?

Normally in the old days your home you qualify for should not be not more than 2 1/2 times your yearly wage on the purchase price. Maybe Phil had a very large down payment on his California residence? The front debt ratio is the percent of your obligations for the mortgage alone. The back ratio of your obligation is factoring in pre existing debts on top of your mortgage obligations. A 38% back ratio is generous. Which means that 38% of your total income goes towards paying house payments, insurance, car payments...etc.

If Phils salary was ever 600K? with a ministry this size? There is one word for that it is called EVIL. Did Phil B actually say he was getting a $600,000 salary a year from his own mouth? Ginger your great but that just seems to much to believe. If it is true think of the people giving him babysitting for free? It has to be proven to me to believe this EN ministry is that corrupt.

[40days40years]

I may be wrong here but my guess is that if you find out the value of Phils Palos Verdes residence when he purchased it. For guessing games sake deduct 50k for a down payment, divide by 2.5 or 2 1/2 of the original purchase price. Wallah that was his salary when he bought the Palos Verdes kennel. Ofcourse his salary probably went up big time after the purchase of that property.

[ginger1]

40/40 based on his home he bought, last year 2000, Ulyankee, correct me if I am wrong. Phil put a downpayment of $300,000. Now for a church of between 120 - 150 people for YEARS, HE DOES NOT HAVE $300,000 ! Phil also just bought his house when HP Africa joined EN a monthe before so we suspect the downpayment came from there. Another suspicion is money came from the 1998 church property which he announced that its already paid off. THATS around $845,000 . As you know its NOT PAID OFF. Nobody knows what happened to those money. Nobody wants to open the books.

His property was bought, less than $900,000 anyway, he kept taking equity out , till he owes $1.6 million. Now with $1.6 million loans, you got to make at least $600,000 to have the bank qualify for that mortgage.

And yes, Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes is EXTREMELY CORRUPT AND EVIL. They have actually used the money to abused people.

[robert_unknown]

i got a confidental email from one of my friends in southafrica who had a lot of insight in the problems that occured during the mergin of HP and MSI. He was warning the guys in ZA, but nobody would listen! here is on part of the mail. ofcourse i will not say who wrote me the mail, nor will i say in which church this things arose.

basicly what he says is this:
some of the leaders in South Africa re starting to challenge some things, but it might be some years to late. they aer realising now that Rice and the other Americans have destroyed the churches and the relationships and TAKE large sums of MONEY out of Africa FOR THEMSELVES!

this mail came from someone who has NOT contact to this forum. and I have NOT talked to him about this issues. we have been working together and started to become friends. I mailed him after many years, just to look how he is doing.

so we hear basicly the SAME reports from all over the world!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on July 09, 2006)

[ginger1]

40/40 and yes it was verbal.

[speakword2004]

Rats jumping the ship?

[ginger1]

Just wondering how do you justify Jim lafoon making $200,000 a year ? Money from tithes worldwide.
How about $100,000 even ? What if Jim laffoon making $100,000, can you even justify that ?
Just think there are more than 15 of them making six figure income, from worldwide tithes. How about the church secretary at $80,000 a year ? how do you justify that ? i do not care thats what the auditor said that Jim Lafoon was not overpaid, but can you justify it ?
I know some pastors making at $150,000 too. Can you justify that in a less than 100 members church ?

[robert_unknown]

no. you cannot. its a wrong attidude. they take themselfes too important. politicians dont earn 600k. topmanagers dont. you must be very high up in a company to make such an income.

and thats what the audits are doing. they compare the church with a company. but the curch is no company and it doesnt generate as much income than a company of that size would do.

so its just simple greed. human and fleshly motives. wrong attidude towards "ministry".

i mean - hey - you only have to take THEIR own measure on themselves. how many people have heared that the have wrong attidudes if they wanted to earn money or more money that was offered, when they entered a ministry under one of them?

i have seen underpaid secretaries who could rarely afford to pay the rent!

but part of the problem is the church by its own. how many people have i seen that gave a LOT of money to their ministers at christmas, when baby was born,...

DONT FEED THE BABOON... just DONT... after a while he will DEMAND his food... and will take it even violently!

[dust]

THEY ARE VAMPIRES!
They USE the lesser paid members for service. The doctor's wife is not babysitting someone else's kids and the lawyer is not moving a pastor on Saturday! They USE the lower middle class/working class (those with the least amount of money) for FREE services.

They use the single women for babysitting, errand running, cooking, housekeeping...FOR FREE.

They use the men as a moving service, valet, taxi, house repairs, car washing/fixing for FREE.

So while they make MASSIVE INCOME, they don't even PAY for the services that other wealthy people would pay someone for.

They feel ENTITLED to use their sheep.
Not only that, if you have a special skill/craft or talent, DON'T TELL the church. You will be fixing their plumbing, wiring up their computer, cooking, catering, who knows what, for FREE, when you could be using this time for GOD, WORSHIPING GOD, SPENDING TIME WITH GOD, or with your FAMILY, or making money for your FAMILY. OR OR OR Providing for those who CAN NOT afford it...how about the real poor or the lost!

So, when you add all the services they DON'T PAY FOR, why do they even NEED such income?

Why do good people give so much to the church? The start out believing they are serving God, and then once they've set themself up as servants, they cannot get out of it because they will be told they are rebellious, out of covering, and are moving AWAY from God... and then the servant starts to get a false sense of caring from the leader and false sense of importance being so close to the top......

[lc_20]

What was funny was to watch people trying to climb out of the service class into the priveleged class. There was one girl who served long and hard for the church with me. When she got married to a wealthy man, they made her husband a pastor and she became a "pastor's wife". She immediately got pregnant and started looking for servants. A few times after her marriage (which was basically arranged and miserable), she came to me telling me things like, I have to watch what I wear now because I am a "Pastor's Wife"... I have to watch what I eat now because I am a "Pastor's wife"... Finally, one day she came to me and said she had prayed about it and had decided that I could be her baby sitter. Hahahahah..... could I please - what a privelege!! I was long since done serving the pastors and their wives by that point. I just told her I already had a job which paid me well... no thanks. She was shocked that I didn't want to serve her. Crazy girl... I don't think they ever did get anyone to serve them. They were to far down the power poll.

[robert_unknown]

"They USE the lower middle class/working class (those with the least amount of money) for FREE services. "

thats true... but they take the money from the doctors, lawyers... i knew a quite a rich guy a time ago, and he always was asked for money for "big and important" projects...

and if you are a lawyer or a doctor, and "pastor supergreedy" needs your help, he thinks, at first, that everything is free...

they always have the idea, that "God is blessing me through you, my brother/sister", but they dont realize how much they are begging and asking for it all the time.

[jesusisawesome]

40 years said: Ginger your great but that just seems to much to believe. If it is true think of the people giving him babysitting for free?

JIA: Hi 40, a quick clarification. Phil Bonasso received a lot of free babysitting and cleaning. However, during the years that I was involved, he usually had one "main" babysitter/what-ever-else-he-and-Karen-needs (i.e. housecleaning, traveling with them to take care of their kids so that they could "minister" - haha that's a joke!). This main babysitter/support person did receive some minimum payment . . . nothing compared to what they would make in the world doing the same thing. On top of this one main support person, there was also a revolving door of women available to help out (without pay of course) from the women's staff house. College students that were hungry to serve and help out and grow in their walk with Christ, in naivety serving leadership.

[aroundtheblock]

So it looks like my best bet is to compile some of the info from the communiques and dig into the publicly disclosed records from the 501(c)3s...correct? It seems that this also may not provide all the info since like former_en_pastor said there will be undisclosed financial transactions.

I don't think trying to infer a lot of stuff from the mortgages will be helpful. For one thing, real estate markets can be regionally inflated. Example. I currently rent a townhome for over 1.6K/month. A neighbors' townhome recently sold for about 415K. These townhomes were built in the 70's and in any other market they would go for FAR less. If I a few years ago got into this market buying a starter home then waited to sell a few years later I would have made a sizable profit. If then me being financially savvy would put down a large down payment I could upgrade to a 3-bedroom house with a yard (they go for at least 700K). And with the interest rates being so low I could start this whole process over again.

Having said that. I do think you can infer some things if the average home price within a specific region is x amount and a person lives in a property valued at an amount way above that. Even then you will have to look at financial history to make an accurate assessment about someones living standards.

In terms of the whole salary thing. That is something I have been trying to wrap my head around for a while. I always come back to the questions, "How much should a pastor make?", "Who decides?", "Is there an equivalent position in the secular world to have a basis for comparison?". I can only think of compiling some information of other leaders' salaries in the non-profit world (not just ministry). I don't think treating pastors as heads of business corporations is the best model since businesses are driven by market forces, supply-demand issues, productivity, etc. Also, applying a business model would mean that church members would be the equivalent of stock holders. If this is the case then members would have far greater oversight than they probably have now.

Anyway..

Is there a place that I can get a hold of 501(c)3 financial records?

thanks for all the info.

[ginger1]

Around the block , here is another info, Phil Bonasso transferred the church property to EN Minsitry, after that , he took out a large loan. Mind you he did this behind Rice and Steve's back. The only reason why he did that, is so he can take a large loan without anybody knowing it. The whole church did not know that they do not own the building any longer too.

To transfer a property to EN ministry , Phil need to get Rice and Steve's approval. That did not happened.
All of those loans, some of the money was used for upgrades, but most of it disappeared.
Nobody knew about the transfer , except it was EXPOSED HERE.

[40days40years]

aroundtheblock: I agree it is a bad model but we are the stockholders and the CEO's and the other officers ripped us off. This is exactly what this is here. The believers, the shareholders are having a fit because those running this thing ripped us off in mind, body and spirit. It is part of the game, even the hissy fit going on here towards these mighty men of God crooks.

[sameo]

Perfect analogy 40!! We certainly were "ripped off in "mind, spirit and body!" Good explanation!!!

SameO

[40days40years]

block I do agree markets are regional. Did Phil have a starter home that exploded in value leaving him a large amount to put down on the next home? - MCM/MSI/EN was suppose to be on another model. Not the corporate model but one of the noble warrior. To protect and serve, the captain goes down with the ship...etc. instead, they have the lower middle class serving them, babysitting, moving their stuff into their new mansions. Plantation owners. This sounds stupid but they betrayed a code of honor maybe it never existed with those at the top. Would these same men betray America if they had the chance and they knew the would be rewarded for it?

[40days40years]

thanks for those encouraging words sameo.

[bill_mack]

40days40years: Would these same men betray America if they had the chance and they knew the would be rewarded for it?

Do you really have to ask? Given the doctrines these people are into, they see Jesus Christ and the church as an enemy, not an ally or something they are a part of.

Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Based upon scripture, we see this pack of salivating wolves who are devoid of any sort of fear of the Lord headed for eternal judgment. How that shakes out in the coming days will be interesting, but one thing is for sure, the Christians who do fear the Lord will get out while the getting in good because when Judgment Day arrives, those who remaim and went along with the lies and deception won't be able to stand before a Holy and Righteous God who is angry that some trwacherous little vipers proclaimed themselves to be the vickar of Jesus Christ here on earth. I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near these people.

[ulyankee]

aroundtheblock, I don't remember if someone else said this or not... due to the First Amendment, churches are not required to file any kind of tax or information reports with the IRS. Other 501(c)(3)s are, but not churches. Financial transparency is totally voluntary. Churches in the US ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REVEAL THEIR FINANCES TO ANYONE.

I think former en pastor also explained that at some EN churches, there are additional entities which are classified as churches, but are not necessarily run as churches.

There are also literally dozens and dozens of corporate entities which are affiliated on the local church level but which are not technically part of Every Nation. One example is Frontline Partners which is a missions fundraising arm of one of the Texas churches. You can find some information on those if they are not classified as churches and file Form 990s with the IRS. Interestingly, not too long ago that same Texas church filed "Frontline" as a business name for the church. So anything raised under the church as opposed to the non-church 501(c)(3) is not subject to reporting.

The long and the short of it is... what little you would be able to find in public records is only the very tip of the iceberg.

EN's leaders have been talking about joining with the ECFA for years, some going back to Maranatha days (these are all in press articles and I think I posted this on FACTNet some time back). Maranatha never joined. Champions for Christ never joined. Every Nation claims that it is in process but has not yet joined. Ginger contacted the ECFA and at that time EN hadn't yet put in an application. Note that membership in the ECFA is totally voluntary.

[ulyankee]

BTW, I hope this explains why some have taken to looking at the homes of some of the leaders... that was the only way to have even a relative idea of what some top leaders (public figures all, btw) might be making, even if it was a very rough estimate.

At least in the case of Phil Bonasso, the estimate based on mortgage info turned out to be pretty close to what was eventually revealed at Palm Springs.

[ulyankee]

aroundtheblock, something you could do if you are interested is contact the Leadership Resource Group (http://www.olanhendrix.com/clients.html#clients) and see if EN is a current client. There is a partial list of clients listed on its website but EN is not there. Since Olan Hendrix/Leadership Group was retained presumably to help EN meet ECFA standards, it might be helpful to verify if they are still a client... might help indicate if they are truly serious about pursuing this or not.

I know in the November communique EN also announced that it had enlisted the services of the DeMoss Group to help with its public image. However, I believe Ginger contacted them and verified that EN had only retained them for several months and that they were no longer a client at the time that communique was released. But PR and financial accountability aren't exactly one and the same.

[aroundtheblock]

Thanks everyone. I'm putting together as much as possible from the tidbits I can piece together. I have some other sources within EN that are helping me in this as well. I was hoping to have something completed by the time the leaders conference started but that was not to be. Maybe within the next few weeks stuff can get finished. I will take ulyankee's advice on the Leadership Resource Group and talk to DeMoss as well.

My hope is that with this document I can ask leaders some questions to get at what is really going on. There has been a lot of chatter from within EN but I (and others) have found the silence on the matter a little upsetting. There was some talk that in August World Partners is supposed to send out some information about the matter. We will see what comes of it. I personally hope for a full disclosure with a remedy plan in place. I also think it behooves EN to set aside a day for corporate repentence. I am very interested in the outcome of the leaders conference.

I am wondering what peoples thought are in a related matter. What do people think should be the remedy for this situation? Should EN be dissolved? What should be done with the EN leadership? How about those who raise support? Just some questions..

Ginger and ulyankee: Can you share your email address? I would like to discuss some things offline if possible.

[ginger1]

Mine is anniegrey@msn.com

[lc_20]

"I personally hope for a full disclosure with a remedy plan in place. I also think it behooves EN to set aside a day for corporate repentence."

Aroundtheblock,
I admire your focus but don't have much hope in your success. First, many have asked for disclosure. I myself asked about the finances before I left. This is seen as a lack of submission to authority - rebellion - sin. Second, you won't get a day of corporate repentence because it goes against their theology that they are apostles from God, clean, righteous... they will not admit errors. Even if they did, how is one day of repentence going to solve 20 years of robbing their congregations. With true repentence comes restoration. You have to get them to give back what was stollen for true repentence. Good luck with that.

Honestly, I don't spend much time thinking about EN as a corporation - whether it should be disolved or rebuilt. I leave that decision up to God. I am confident he will make that decision based on the condition of the hearts of leadership.

Can I ask how long you have been in EN? Have you read the posts of maranatha84? I am wondering how aware you are of the history of this organization and what you are fighting against.

[ginger1]

Around the block here is another info that I have been pressing on the Asian EN board is to go back on the year 2000. HP Africa joined EN between March-April of 2000. And on the very next month Rice and Phil bought their house at the same time, less than 2 weeks apart. This is public records. Phil have put a down payment of $300,000. Knowing Phil, HE DOES NOT HAVE $300,000 unless he took it from the PV church equity.

Rice also bought his million dollar home on the same month. As I said this is JUST RIGHT AFTER HP Africa JOINED MSI. We strongly believe those downpayments of their million dollar homes came from HP Africa.
Now, it does not looked like they want to open their books, quite frankly , THEY WON'T OPEN their books.

They have been saying they will, but ever since the communique came out, it looked like they refused to open it. Thats all the information you will get from them.
SUBTLENESS INFORMATION.

[40days40years]

Ginger are they going to discuss disclosing actual salaries at the next meeting? It sounds like guys like Brett Fuller can just blow off the request. Like former EN pastor says how can you find out if their getting money from multiple sources that don't have to report it in public record. You know if these leaders had earned the money themselves I could see their point but they are putting the squeeze on poor students.

At least with a person like Joyce Meyers it is more honest because you can choose if you want to buy one of her books but you can't choose to not give to these EN leaders who control the church purse strings. Maybe Murrell should require mandatory disclosure of salaries from every source including gifts and hidden sources? Could that work?

[ulyankee]

aroundtheblock, my email is ulyankee@yahoo.com.

[ginger1]

40/40 , they wont show it. There is no way they will show it. Here is with Rice, he WON'T PAY BACK THE MONEY HE TOOK. two reason He is deep in debt. $2 million. second reason, he is not able to. He put himself in that debt hole and could not crawl out of it.

I do not think he would want his hole dug deeper.

[robert_unknown]

ginger,
as i posted somewhere: The americans destroyed the southafrican HP churches and the relatiosnhips between the pastors, and took LARGE sums of money out of africa to nashville FOR THEMSELVES!

i have evidence from an eyewittnes!

[aroundtheblock]

Pt 1.
lc:
I'll share a little bit about my background.

When I was saved I was involved in a ministry that was really being touched by God. A lot of people were coming to Christ and everyone was really serious about seeing holiness in their lives and a revival come to the university and city. It truly was an amazing time. When I graduated I decided to join the staff and do campus ministry. During that year things changed quite a bit. It isn't anything that I can point to and say "this" is when it changed. But something did change. There was a heavy emphasis on repentance and "being right with the Lord". Don't get me wrong, those statements are completely biblical but something did not seem right about the way we (the church) were acting upon it. I felt a weight come upon me anytime I went to church. When I tried to talk to my pastor about it he really didn't see what was going on or he would tell me to "pray about it". Other people in the ministry also started feeling a heavy burden. What we were feeling was legalism but we didn't understand it back then. I was thinking that there was something wrong with the way the pastor is doing things or the way the church is headed. I felt that I must be in some sin for me to be thinking these thoughts. My view of God changed during that time. He wasn't a loving Father but a slave master who required complete holiness and obedience no matter the cost. I sort of felt like the Israelites in Egypt being tasked to make bricks but with no material to do it. After leaving for the summer many of us in the ministry were able to put the pieces together and see what was going on. When we returned we sort of put our foot down and said that the church's legalistic mindset needed to change. We met a lot of resistance from our friends who did not see it this way. It seemed like there were two camps within the church. After some time some of us decided that it just wasn't worth it any more and left.

During this time I was concurrently involved with MorningStar. It was this ministry that helped me regain my joy in the Lord. That same excitement that I remembered from a previous time started to return. Interestingly something else happened. For the first time I realized that the prior ministry deceived me. I had been had. How could God allow this to happen? We were earnestly seeking Him and WANTING to do His will. How could we have been so blind? The next few years were not the greatest in terms of my relationship with God. I was still involved in the church (by this time I was in a different city attending an EN church) but my radar was active and sensitive. I would be very skeptical of sermons. Message titles like "The Blessing of God", which could be completely appropriate, would raise red flags in my mind. I don't know how long this really went on. I think to some degree its still going on in my mind. But I have come to see things a little differently. As opposed to blaming God for allowing this to happen to me I have realized that God actually kept me during this time. He also has showed me the value of putting my trust solely on Him and His Word. A verse that to me has been helpful during this time is from Ps 119:160, "The sum of Thy Word is Truth". This just challenges me to look at the entirety of His word to really gain truth.

OK. Sorry for the long history but I think it is appropriate to share a little bit about me since people on this board have also shared some of their experiences.

[aroundtheblock]

Pt 2.
So getting back to the subject. I wasn't involved with this ministry back in the Maranatha days. I do know some of that history just b/c it was talked about when I was in MSI. The conversations I heard from the leadership always tended to discuss the shepherding issues and how that became the downfall of Maranatha.

In terms of corporate repentance. I do think that if all these allegations of corruption are true then this is a sin first and foremost against God. Therefore this ministry should seek His forgiveness. Not just the leaders but also the members for not being responsible members and confronting more. I also agree that besides repentance there needs to be restitution. I don't know how that would look yet.

Finally, I guess that I probably don't know what I'm up against. I do know however that there are people (laymen, pastors, and campus staff) within this ministry that are seeking God and that are asking tough questions. Hopefully by His grace this ship could be steered back on course. And hopefully the pain that has been caused to so many will finally end.

[ginger1]

Not just the leaders but also the members for not being responsible members and confronting more.

I need to correct you on this, There were pastors who confronted the EN leaders, and they were fired. People who confronted them, were ostracized, slandered and kick out.

We all did tried going the right way, go to the elders then to the pastors, we did all the proper channels. Factnet is the last resort.

[lc_20]

aroundtheblock,
Thank you for sharing your background. It will be interesting to see how you do in your efforts... maybe you will be like David against Goliath. Success for you in these efforts would truly be a miracle. You need to look at the whole EN picture though, not just the finances, to know how to fight these leaders. They are a top down accountability system. Change and repentance needs to start at the top. Don't underestimate the amount of effort past members of the congregations have made in confronting these issues. Keep God close to your heart in this battle. I wish you well. But, know that if you do end up beaten, rejected and hurt after your efforts, the Lord will still be with you and maybe, by the Grace of God, so will your internet supporters.

[robert_unknown]

"There were pastors who confronted the EN leaders, and they were fired.2

THERE WHERE PASTORS fired who have been with their churches RIGHT from BEGINING or 10 and more years! they have been fired because they didnt proof the "right DNA"!

now - this should have ringed already some alarm bells!

i would recomend EVERY church who has been absorbed by EN (for example all the His People churches) to DRAW out from EN as soon as possible!

this men have NO right to fire your pastors, and they have NO God given authority upon Your ministries and churches!

Outside of EN ("alone") can NOT be worse than within EN!

i lost my church, because one of the guys just took mne "out of ministry", but then they also lost the whole church! the people didnt want to be affiliated with EN and its covering and sheperding! they felt that it was wrong (i did not understand then), and today i would draw out my church imideately.

i have put too much faith in PaulDaniels decissions.

[robert_unknown]

"There were pastors who confronted the EN leaders, and they were fired.2

THERE WHERE PASTORS fired who have been with their churches RIGHT from BEGINING or 10 and more years! they have been fired because they didnt proof the "right DNA"! thats inapropraite and no one in EN had the authority to do this! this was a total abuse of trust!

now - this should have ringed already some alarm bells!

i would recomend EVERY church who has been absorbed by EN (for example all the His People churches) to DRAW out from EN as soon as possible!

this men have NO right to fire your pastors, and they have NO God given authority upon Your ministries and churches!

Outside of EN ("alone") can NOT be worse than within EN!

i lost my church, because one of the guys just took mne "out of ministry", but then they also lost the whole church! the people didnt want to be affiliated with EN and its covering and sheperding! they felt that it was wrong (i did not understand then). but today i would draw out my church imideately.

i have put too much faith in PaulDaniels decissions. but now i understand that he could not even decide fopr all of us and for our churches to join MSI/EN! this was already a totaly wrong way to step into EN:

[wildwood_]

Aroundtheblock: Started to post this earlier for for you, but thought I'd wait. You see I was never EN, but I do know & love those who are, and am coming to know and love those who were and may be. Just had an overwhelming desire to tell you that you really did not have to worry about changing EN's course since its course is determined by members one by one...just make sure your own course sails where your heart delights in the Lord. This is what I typed, but wasn't sure it was appropriate to this thread. But looking around, I believe it was a theme on most threads tonight. lc-20, You are so right. Jesus knows every tear drop. Every leaders heart. And somewhere along the line the Good New of Jesus Christ must have been spread or you all would not be standing up for your Brethern now. Amazing Grace.

Aroundtheblock: I know nothing about EN.BUT By faith in Jesus I stand with children I first played at His feet with. Another poster on another thread said the salt that has “lost its saltiness” regains it by the Blood. Never heard that before. So Simply True. And the Truth always sets us Free.

All these posters on this board have been praying and carrying such a heavy weight for so long because of the love of Jesus between His people. If there had not been much love…there would not have been so much pain. The one remarkable thing that has never changed is that Our Lord is the Lord of the Impossible. And what would appear to require an atomic blast to move, will fall with the touch of a feather, or a brush of ship's mighty wheel. He knows about all this. He has always known. It is His Church. It does not belong to any man or woman. And HIS Church has not been touched by corruption or falsehood. It Cannot be. His Body. His Bride. And when the Bible says EVERY knee shall bow & Every tongue confess… that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every means EVERY. Including the Believers. All Believers.

It still just comes down to sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ…and there’s a profound completeness from my perspective of the converts of the missionaries becoming in a sense “missionaries” to the Church in America...not only EN but perhaps other ministries as well who in their zeal for numbers have confused just who is adding to the Church Daily and who in their zeal to keep up with the Jones' down the road, begin to believe that the Kingdom of the Lord needs a glass & steel building with a parking lot. Wrong: The Lord God wants our hearts & Souls for His Kingdom. And His Kingdom is not of this world. Good Bless you. Look to your buddies on your right & left. Cherish them today. The Church is there & with you. Treasure these moments. And maybe even rejoice if you can of that fellowship EN has given.... Jesus is Lord. Yesterday. Today. Forever.

I will continue praying for all. Knowing He's already right THERE beside you now. Hope you get some sleep. I'm here because I do care and believe it or not...was even young once. G'Nite.

[40days40years]

wildwood: Just had an overwhelming desire to tell you that you really did not have to worry about changing EN's course since its course is determined by members one by one...

40/40: I don't think I believe that one wildwood.

[speakword2004]

I do not agree that pulling out of EN would be good for His People alone. Repentence is required by His People due to their involvement with EN. Many His People pastors have been trained by EN and mentored by EN. There is cult from EN within His People. Paul Daniel's fall was an early and prophetic indicator of what would happen within HP due to spiritual corruption as a result of pride and arrogance of ministry and not holding to Christ as the head of the church.

Beenaround, as co-founder of the ReformationStation (a site dedicated to encouraging reform within EN)I am yet hopeful that you and others can cause internal pressure within EN to move towards full and honest disclosure and away from the ever creeping cultism, corruption and hyper-authoritarianism within the church.

[wildwood_]

40/40: I understand might trouble you with my statement & you have no way of knowning me at all. I just appeared here. Under those circumstances;You are words are sadly wise. But,I'm hoping to be around for a while to earn some trust. For the words to make sense, I used them in a context...of Jesus changing hearts & souls one at at a time...and that what might seem to reguire an impossible amount of force might be done with just a touch of a feather because the Lord has done the "heavy lifting" from the very beginning of time. Really, we can never "change" anyone but ourselves and that by the Mercy of God. But, just as non-Believers see the Living Christ on our Faces. Troubled-weighed-down Believers see the Light Yoke of Our Meek & Lowly Lord...and the Joy in our hearts as we plow the fields. When people see Jesus. They want to meet Jesus.

I truly believe the words I typed earlier tonight. And I truly believe that Jesus changes the world one day at a time, one Soul at a time, one Heart at a time. My heart really went out for "Roundtheblock"...sounded tired. I've felt that myself before only no message boards for references. No cellphones to call E.T> So Just Jesus & Me.

We do not have to carry the weight of the world on our shoulders. He has asked us to give him our burdens. Surely, this is one that He must carry. Jesus is Still Lord. He has been for over 2000 years. He knows about this problem. But most wondrous of all...Jesus KNOWS the name and greatest need of each heart involved. He's Faithful. He Promised. My words were meant to encourage.

40/40 I am very sorry if I did not select them more wisely to reflect my concern for the wounded more unmistakably. Please, take another look when you get a chance. I have no idea what the Lord Jesus has in mind, but I expect it will be wonderous. Confounding the wise. Giving place to the foolish things of this earth. So at the end of the day, when Goliath fell...it was at the hands of a little boy...doing what little boys do...playing with a sling-shot. Some small insignificant little pebble, but God's hand directed the stone. Jesus held a stone before & did not throw it. But he tossed the money changers out on their ears... So I pray for Mercy for Us All. Mercy in the bright daylight of Truth.

(I'd delayed posting on this thread because I wasn't sure it would be appropriate since I was not EN or not knowingly. To avoid future confusion in an already trying moments. I will not post on a thread specifically label as such again. Not that I don't like you guys, but I've lots of other choices and the Lord can deliver my prayers just as well for you whether you know about them or not http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif...Roundtheblock...check out some other threads.

[40days40years]

wildwood no need to apologise I understand but like Ginger said those who disagreed and confronted injustice were removed, expelled or whatever one by one. It's cool I just disagree no offense taken.

[40days40years]

Or for the sake of accuracy many times they removed themselves rather then die to self and truth and live for a lie.

[dust]

You know I can actually SEE wildwood's point.


There is something to THINK and REFLECT here. In the end, as a Christian, there is in us, the Spirit of Christ. I am a lot more refined in my faith because of my experiences...and I've seen it for many others too. Even Cinderella knows more about real TRUTH now and the real heart of Jesus. I am seeing people one by one take this burden to God and "hear" Him, maybe hearing God for the first time because his voice was so drowned out in EN, as it is in many MEGA ministries.

We may move as the BODY corporately, but we DO NOT corporately go to heaven or go to hell. It is an INDIVIDUAL walk.
We are all given an individual chance to PICK UP the CROSS!

Not a popular concept. We would rather pick up our sermon tapes, our purpose driven life manual and our remote controls.

Being expelled for truth may lead to real victory! If enough individuals spoke truth, then they could expel the whole church. Glory to God! I'm sure the truth we spoke gave enough courage to at least a few others to speak truth and so on. Most of our friends, therefore, are OUT!

And, from we hear, many more are leaving. And, perhaps for the first time in their life, they will experience what it is like to have JESUS minister to them.

Wildwood, DON'T back down when you think you have a word. That's my very point. Maybe this "word" was your cross today, because it may not be popular.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi catching up- Yes Wildwood please post here, you were lead and have much to add, as you had a similar way, if I remember well...and you know Butch, whom needs your help. Stay you as you are led.


I think that you are right about one by one; this is how He counts us. You have so much to add, please discount some thoughts, if you can. We need your input, greatly.}

[wildwood_]

Thank you all for your patience &amp; understanding. I do not want to intrude. I want to be a Servant. So, as long as I can post without adding to a problem. I will. Disagree with me and maybe one day I’ll even argue…more…

I have been so unexpectedly blessed to find my way back home to a family I never knew...to a part of the Lord's Church I didn't know that I'd been fellowshipping with all along...in my heart.

Copper…from years ago, this was one of Butch’s favorites: I’m sure it’s still written on his heart.

Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

I’m praying as a child again and I have the oddest feeling that people I haven’t spoken with in years are also suddenly being reminded and called back to their knees and I do believe that Brother Butch has an unexpected host standing with him even if we don’t understand where he’s standing. We’re not going on without him. Time is only relevant when you don’t have Eternity with Jesus. We know We Do. The Lord must be calling out people for each person involved…I don’t have to understand. I just have to pray. That I have experience at…

[aroundtheblock]

Ginger et al.

I did not mean to imply that there were no people prior who were lifting their voices and speaking against some of the practices they saw within EN.

I was just commenting on those people who knew that they should have spoken but for the sake of pleasing man did not.

Wildwood: Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I also agree that there is a process in which God takes individuals to greater depths sometimes even by the roads we would not like to travel on.

[miltietoast]

wildwood--Copper…from years ago, this was one of Butch’s favorites: I’m sure it’s still written on his heart.
wildwood is butch the butch in maranatha84's blog? If so I would like to talk to him.My email is cunningham_fam7@yahoo.com. (it's cunningham_) Dam mdillon I just blew my cover

[matt_hatter]

miltie, butch was Leo Lawson's nick name, I think. You threw your email out there for nothing, smartpig.

[40days40years]

Maybe not for nothing maybe Leo Lawson can email him LOL! Miltie why even ask, uhhh Bob can I take your new Mercedes to see my luv ones? You should have just done it. Bob might look at the odometer and you could say awww shucks the bible says to honor your parents I think Jesus wanted me to visit them on the way I paid for the gas, what can he say? Not leadership material buddy, sorry.

FMP said the legacy that Bob gave to Rice and Phil was the ability to bend/semi break the rules. That was one of my first major warning signs that something was very wrong.