EN Ministry and DELIVERANCE AS BIBLICAL COUNSELING

[dust]

This is briefly in response to personal stories of deliverance. Due to 84's blog, we have been joking about them, and he termed them "hootah" sessions.


In reading over the personal stories, this method spans 30 years. I've done a lot of thinking on this, because I have a background in clinical psychology and clinical hypnosis.

Repetitive deliverance sessions is a cheap way to glorify Satan on all fronts:

Satan is glorified because even though Jesus died on the cross for your freedom, it didnt "take."

Deliverance brings SHAME, forces confessions, convinces you of sins you didn't even commit, DECLARES YOU GUILTY, when Jesus declared you NOT GUILTY.

But, most importantly, it is NOT the counsel given us by Paul, who tells us in Ephesians, that yes, we will be in a fight against the devil, and GOD has provided us the tools.

3 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

[john_r_jones]

dust,
like many other aspects of ministry we in Maranatha got it wrong, as have other ministries. Post Maranatha I've seen people delivered as it were of Demonic oppresion and it wasn't a circus sideshow. I believe we can be freed, cleansed and made whole by the inworking of the Holy Spirit. I also believe that counselling is both art and science coupled with compassion and discernment and ultimately where the business of the church to be genuine is at hand. Maybe you can illustrate further your thoughts on this matter.
John

[ontheroad]

Well-said, Dust and JRJ.

I'd like to also place a couple of links again here on this thread:

Article on the harmful effects from unbiblical deliverance ministries:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue78.htm

Another good link posted previously by AnotherBrick about deprogramming (because it goes along with the damage done by deliverance-gone-wrong):
http://www.rickross.com/reference/deprogramming/deprogramming7.html

[40days40years]

Dust you said on the other thread: We know as a fact, that the new pastors (transfers, etc.), no matter how long they've been in the ministry, have been (with no choice) put through surprise deliverance sessions. While it is the SYSTEM that wears them down, this is a very important part of that system.

40/40: are you referring to new transfers from ministries that EN just merged with? or just people already in EN? I could imagine them thinking: what type of ministry have I joined?

I remember discussing things with a top prophet in semi/counseling and one of his little things is to discern a spirit and if you question it, he will say if you want to keep it thats your choice. Ofcourse you can't really say, yeah I'll keep it. That seems a little manipulative if you ask me.

I assume I've got the right thread here you were referring to.

[cupatea]

We were ones who had been involved in ministry for many many years before coming into MSI. There were no victory weekends at that time but when they were started and we were required to go through it - well that was about the time that alarm bells began to go off in my head. It really does say , "Jesus dying for you was not enough. There's still stuff in there that you have to tell me so God can deal with it." What ever happened to there being one mediator between man and God called Jesus? Bill I'm sure you have links to show this is a Kabalah connection with the Catholic church. Anyhow I remember thinking to myself there was no way I was going to run those weekends in any church I planted. Good to be aware of area's you are still weak in but the whole reveal, repent, reforgiven system for people who are already Christians ... I don't think so.

[hewrote]

%It didn't take what?%

John 1:4
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

To dust post 202


%The fine line%

Acts 17:23

For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

To thread subject.

[flo1151]

I too used to wear peoples hair off the top of their head trying to get them delivered. It seems that we unlike the charlie daniels song the devil went down to georgia "give the devil his due" gave him too much credit for things.
Ibelieve some of the cases we dealt with were probably chemical in nature. I remeber a young man from Cape Girardeau Mo who broke into my apt while I was at a MLTS took off all his clothes streaked down broadway for about 30 blocks before like a bunny came back to my apt and was arrested. I don't think he needed deliverance he just needed some jogging shorts. Five or six years ago we had a couple over to our house for some fellowship. In about a week she arrived unannounced at our house saying she needed deliverance. She had brought a gun with her. I knew she was a little screwey but never thought I would be facing a gun coming home from work. We started ministering to her and I started to revert back to the old deliverance ways and I felt the Holy Spirit say no. Her husband finally arrived got her home and on the right dosage of medication and she was fine. I learned as Clint Eastwood says "A man has to know his limitations". The many people who were demoralized by unsucessful deliverance practices I hope have found help. God empowers us to live a Godly life and to win in our struggles against sin, but the devil got way too much credit.

[john_r_jones]

So that's what happened to me I was delivered of my hair!
John-Armor All-Jones

[flo1151]

I release the viagara spirit in you!

[40days40years]

flo, maybe the jogger was trying to do something so outrageous that he would be thrown out or at least gaurantee that leadership would be a no go after that stunt? Assuming he was in Maranatha I just realized he may not have been though but if he was could that thought have been rolling around somewhere in his head, consciously or subconsciously?

I remember one top guy in upper leadership who did a major flesh sin and then confessed it to someone who anybody would have known that this person is going to turn you in to the very top for that. Is there something going on there where people do stuff like this to get thrown out or have their wings clipped so bad they will never be allowed to rise to the top?

Miltie when you would be brutally honest with your critiques did a little of you do that knowing you were guaranteeing that you would not be allowed to ascend after that?

(Message edited by 40days40years on July 14, 2006)

[flo1151]

40 Yes this young man had been coming to the church for a few weeks. He had also gone to a catholic monastery as a child to be a priest. He later told me he was abused by one of the priests and had felt after coming to some of the meetings that he was like adam and he should take off his clothes. This was in the early days of streaking. He was one of the pioneers in the streaking for Jesus movement founded by yours truly.

[jesusisawesome]

Flo: I too used to wear peoples hair off the top of their head trying to get them delivered.

John: So that's what happened to me I was delivered of my hair!

JIA: LMBO!!! Thanks for taking the stress away from a very long day . . .

[maranatha1984]

Dust:Satan is glorified because even though Jesus died on the cross for your freedom, it didnt "take." Deliverance brings SHAME, forces confessions, convinces you of sins you didn't even commit, DECLARES YOU GUILTY, when Jesus declared you NOT GUILTY.

84: 8 of 10 points Dust. The other 2 being what they KNOW about you CAN be used against you. Whenever you disagree or don't conform "Oh brother we see that you are embracing that old sin of xxxx"

As Stalin said "It is not enough to destroy enemies of the people...we must humiliate them and force them to confess

[miltietoast]

Miltie when you would be brutally honest with your critiques did a little of you do that knowing you were guaranteeing that you would not be allowed to ascend after that?

40/40 No,I have always felt since I met Jesus that I was not to receive one dime from anyone for serving Jesus.I am to pay my way. So I never considered going fulltime as an option.The only money I received in Maranatha was 84.72, to make a car payment, begrudgingly from Bob Weiner after I worked on the Auburn house for free for 2 1/2mnths. He gave the check to me like a handout. I think he was expecting a display of gratitude from me.I snatched check out of his hand and walked out of office.I was so mad I could have spit on him.Mike Caulk gave Rae Ann and me some money to pay some immediate bills(we had the U-haul loaded and we were headed for TN)

[robert_unknown]

" He later told me he was abused by one of the priests and had felt after coming to some of the meetings that he was like adam and he should take off his clothes."

i am wondering when THIS gets introduces at some mad cultic place as new doctrin http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif