Funny Strange Stupid Heretical Sermons Teachings

[robert_unknown]

In the last time i try hard to remember sermons and teachings that we received from En pastors and "apostles" during the last years in our churches in Europe. interestingly i cannot remember very much. i will have to dig out all my tapes and notebooks from the cellar where i have buried them some years ago.

so i thought it would be interesting to collect some of the most srange things we have heared from the pulpit.

I was preaching by my own, and i always prepared many hours for it. But i do admit, that sometimes things wasnt "perfect" or good. So - preachers are people and vessels only, and they can make stupid things, thats not question about it.

but there are things which perhaps help us to see a bigger picture. we are talking about experiences we had, abuse we suffered. so this thread could possibly help us to get a better picture of what is going on on EN-land!


i am starting with this one:


HOW GOD DISCIPLINES US - Phil Bonasso, MSI European Conference (2000 or 2001)

at one conference - it must have been around 2000 or 2001 (at the end of the merging) - there has been a sermon of Phil Bonasso. The Europe-Conference was - i try to be gentle - a desaster. we had many good and succesfull conferences before, but at this conference nearly every speaker was american. every worhsip song was in english. the "natives" who have attended was quite frustrated and felt very strange. some people left my church after the conference!! rememeber - we live in a german speeking area. and the way how the uncles from america appeard was not very wise - it was quite colonialistic. however EN recognized this mistake, and agreed to respect the local identity in future more.

however - Phil "preached" between 30 - 45 minutes. he tells us an experience he had in his younger days at school.

he was beahving funny in school ad had no respect from authorities. he would walk around with a had, and a stick, and avoid lessons. he would smoke and maje funny jokes. so he gets the attention of the principal of the shool. and this guy tries to stop him.
so phil is beeing beaten EVERY day by the principal of the high-school where he has been. this guy would take him every single day into his office. Phil nust bend over, and then he would beat him on his <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> with a wooden pipe, because Phil was behaving stupid in school...

Phil did not - during this "sermon" - open his bible once, if i remember wright. I was always thinking, what the heck is he talking about?

At the end of his "sermon" (which by the way was funny and the audience had a good laughter) he told us, that he needed this beatings. he said God set this man over him to teach him submission, respect. there came one day, when young Phil said from all of his heart to the principal "I owe it that you beat me - thank you for disciplining me".


(Message edited by robert_unknown on July 11, 2006)

[robert_unknown]

he made the point that without this guy he would perhaps have been lost later (as if he is in a better stage right now). and that this man was laying submission, respect and the fear of God in his live (if i remember wright).

he told us this t-o-t-a-l-y mad story, about this weird man, beating him up every day - just to teach us the "spiritual truth" of how good ist is beeing disciplined by someone in authority.

he said its not his opinion, that people should be beaten (well thank you, our eminency, at least for this), but discipline is needed to change our stupid and stuborn charakters into the image of Christ (or something like this). and sometimes God does things in our live that are strange and hurting do correct us.

so - this is the ONLY remembrance i have on Phil Nassos sermons!

what the heck does this guy want us to tell? did he want us to understand that now the "apostolic fathers" are here to "kick our butts" so that we can become nicer people? i mean he was serious about the "Spiritual conclusions" that he drew out of this humbling experience in his own life.

and i was believing it and thought thats good and ok.

i think this sermon actually gives a good refeltion on how this man thinks! he thinks HE is the principal and WE ("his" church) are the school-boys that need to be corrected by him.

well - THANK you Mister Nasso for this insight in your psychology!

THANK you, Sir. I do not need THIS in my live... LOL

[jesusisawesome]

Interesting story, Robert. It fits right in with Tik's blog and Phil's comments to him about how this is probably a cult, but need to be able to control these people that needed direction. Another piece of the puzzle in attempting to understand Phil's psyche.

[jesusisawesome]

Interesting story, Robert. It fits right in with Tik's blog and Phil's comments to him about how this is probably a cult, but need to be able to control these people that needed direction. Another piece of the puzzle in attempting to understand Phil's psyche.

[jesusisawesome]

Now I'm double dipping . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jesusisawesome]

Mdillon, I repent . . . http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[robert_unknown]

i choose the title by my own... dont remember if the sermon had one initially...

[dust]

Sermons "shifted" from seducing people in (up to five services) and then when membership was declining, the sermons became more like threats.

Tim Johnson (he's never mentioned, but he's the PRODUCT of the PRODUCT here). He would get his best ghetto talk up.

"I'm hearing some of you said you don't CLICK. He would be referring to people who were assigned to a cell group or discipler and it wasn't working out. We're not clicking.

"Well, you're NOT A SAFETY BELT. You don't need to click."
I guess the way Cinderella didn't click with that ps. wife!
No compassion, no understanding that people's spiritual lives were being shattered. And, yes you DO need to click. A relationship THRIVES on love, trust, compassion. We are NOT TO WHITE KNUCKLE our Christian walk. That's not freedom, Tim.

Then when they really needed some FORCE, they would bring in the prophet, Lafoon. The prophecy sermon would evolve around people "going out the back door and what would happen to them, being disobedient to God, leaving the place that God brought them. THIS IS A SERIOUS MISUSE of the prophetic office, and I'll be so bold as to say, whoever is in LEADERSHIP and ALLOWS this false prophetic voice to continue or ENCOURAGES this kind of manipulation is in GRAVE SIN.

If Lafoon had really earnestly sought to use his prophetic gift, he would have been PROTECTING THE SHEEP, and he would not have blood on his hands. And I use old testament because Jim likes to live there back in the law.

THE OVERALL PROBLEM WITH NEARLY EVERY SERMON:

1. No WORD. Misused scriptures. Scriptures used to MANIPULATE the congregation for man's tower of babel.
2. Heretical misuse of the Word. Using scriptures in wrong context, IGNORING FULL COUNSEL of God.
3. Heretical teaching of HEADSHIP, COVERING, SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY.

Even IF they were righteous with money and just really nice, loving people, the DEPARTURE from scripture is heresy. There is NO way around this.

Change the bible, change the world!

[robert_unknown]

well i would not say that this applies to EVERY sermon. i heared Mark Foster preaching good and soud biblical sermons. I also heared Ron Lewis and the Sermon was completely ok.

But what you said is of course something to consider seriosly!

specially "Sermons "shifted" from seducing people in (up to five services) and then when membership was declining, the sermons became more like threats. " is very interesting! didnt realize this before you said it, but i can comfirm it!

[robert_unknown]

i remember Rick Shelton praising this wonderfull spirituall family of EN! And how he would not even think one minute to tithe 20% (not ONLY 10%...) to this wonderfull family (and all the angels sing!)... how fast the things can change...

(Message edited by robert_unknown on July 11, 2006)

[upcase20]

I used to know Tim Johnson, looks like they really have him under their control. Shame.

[robert_unknown]

example?

[matt_hatter]

Robert said: so - this is the ONLY remembrance i have on Phil Nassos sermons!

Robert, you might know, from Tik's blog, I went to high school with nasso.
To say that story is an exaggeration would be an understatement.

Most of the paddling at our school was done in almost a kidding way. The principal he refers to was a crew cutted ex football coach. I was a long haired stoner, but also Sr. Class President.

There were a 'few' instances where "Mad Thad" as we called him would say, "Come here Matt, I don't like that long hair, bend over." A couple of smacks on the tail and I was doing all I could not to laugh. And he was grinning. This was the same banter that went on with 'nasso. He was not a discipline problem as he would have you believe.

He did walk around with a felt cap and cane, which looked ridiculous on a 17 year old kid.

The point is, many preachers are liars. Sorry to be so blount. They hear a story, and think, it would even be better if...

At least we know comedians use over the top humor for effect. People like 'nasso need to embellish the truth thinking that it will enhance ....not sure?

The real truth is what it is...TRUTH! If he would have preached on the truth of Christ, you might not have been left scratching your head.

You used the word colonialistic. Approriate, but even better, Lazy Americans. What an example to set for another culture. We are here to be served, not to serve.

Matt

[robert_unknown]

thanks Matt, for the clarification... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

i tell you - seriously - i have NOT much memory on any other sermons of Bonasso.

the only thing that was all the time predominant when the EN-americans (i know many americans who are NOT lazy and NOT infected by the EN-DNA) was here was the emphasis on "discipleship" and "walking with brothers" and "covering"...

[speakword2004]

You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar
If I was to say to you
Girl, we couldn't get much higher

Come on baby, light my fire
Come on baby, light my fire
Try to set the night on fire

The time to hesitate is through
No time to wallow in the mire
Try now we can only lose
And our love become a funeral pyre

Come on baby, light my fire
Come on baby, light my fire
Try to set the night on fire, yeah

The time to hesitate is through
No time to wallow in the mire
Try now we can only lose
And our love become a funeral pyre

Come on baby, light my fire
Come on baby, light my fire
Try to set the night on fire, yeah

You know that it would be untrue
You know that I would be a liar
If I was to say to you
Girl, we couldn't get much higher

Come on baby, light my fire
Come on baby, light my fire
Try to set the night on fire
Try to set the night on fire
Try to set the night on fire
Try to set the night on fire


Sorry, this one just popped into my head this morning.

[j2theperson]

***Matt wrote: To say that story is an exaggeration would be an understatement.

Most of the paddling at our school was done in almost a kidding way. The principal he refers to was a crew cutted ex football coach. I was a long haired stoner, but also Sr. Class President.

There were a 'few' instances where "Mad Thad" as we called him would say, "Come here Matt, I don't like that long hair, bend over." A couple of smacks on the tail and I was doing all I could not to laugh. And he was grinning. This was the same banter that went on with 'nasso. He was not a discipline problem as he would have you believe.***

That actually strikes me as just as inappropriate and creepy (though in a different way) as if the principle *had* been the sadist Phil Bonasso claimed he was. Spanking is entirely and exclusively the action of a parents. I can think of absolutely no circumstances under which it would be appropriate for a school principle to spank any of his students, much less to spank one just because he didn't like that student's long hair. The fact that he did it in a joking manner only makes it more disturbing. What on earth is funny about corporal punishment? It's not something you should joke about. And it seems very wrong for that principle to (1) physically punish someone just because he didn't like the way they looked and (2) try to pass that punishment off as a joke. That sort of behaviour is, at the least, emotionally manipulative if not out right abusive.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

when i was in school (elementary, grade)...it was the job of the principal or teacher to do the spanking. if you got sent to the principal to be spanked, that was the ultimatum.

that was how things were in the 60s-70s.

and i will say that there were a lot of students (including myself) that behaved for fear of being called "out into the hall".

times have changed since then.

in regards to Bonasso and EN sermons: i figured out late in the game that all "stories" were embellished for dramatic effect.

what i always thought was humorous was when a pastor would tell a "story" in his sermon...and it was exactly the same "story" that was just passing through the internet/email forwards that everyone and their mother received.

i was more amazed that no member caught on or said anything...

[robert_unknown]

not to forget that "Philly the Kid" and the others were already 17 years of age!!

thats not a proper disciplining/ educational tool for kids of 17years of age at all - not even for parents!

what sort of high school was this?


(Message edited by robert_unknown on July 12, 2006)

[j2theperson]

***Brick wrote: when i was in school (elementary, grade)...it was the job of the principal or teacher to do the spanking. if you got sent to the principal to be spanked, that was the ultimatum.

that was how things were in the 60s-70s.***

Just because it was culturally acceptable at the time doesn't make it any more acceptable or any less wrong. It just indicates that the cultural as a whole was fairly messed up if that sort of patantly inappropriate behaviour was considered normal.

And again, it bares pointing out...the principle wasn't only spanking students for genuine disobedience and bad behaviour. He spanked Matt just because Matt had long hair. How much more arbitrary can you get?

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

matt and bonasso's story i would not view that as the norm back in those days. i never encounter that type of "calling out". the punishment that happened would be justified (and the last resort) to an unruly student.

oh, but i forgot...that was culturally back then. things are so much better in public schools now, eh?

[matt_hatter]

You guys are missing the point. The south in the 60-70's is not the issue. We had other major issues down here that were more important than that. I survived with no scars. The cultural/generational differences are not the issue here, it was the the embellishment of the sermon. Don't make it an issue over a cultural thing that has very little significance. There are things in Wisconsin/Germany that may have me scratching my head! We'll start arguing about guns and hunting next, another southern cultural thing.

This is about stupid sermons, which I found this one to be.

Matt

[ulyankee]

matt, and more than just the embellishment, it was the REASON for the embellishment, which was to reinforce the Every Nation gospel:

--Submit to Jesus as Lord
--This is walked out by submitting to the
authority God has placed over you
--We are the authority God has placed over you
--Submit to us as Lord

[matt_hatter]

Uly, I TOTALLY agree with what you are saying here. Just didn't want the discussion to turn into the 'ills' in some's minds of southern mores. We do pull that chip out of our pockets at times and put in on our shoulder...sorry! Cultural discussions are best left alone. We all have a different upbringing. I survived it all quite well. Things like that are not allowed in the south anymore. It was a different time. Shouldn't have shared the story, it was a long time ago.

Matt

[ulyankee]

Oh, no, I'm glad you shared it. It shed more light on it for sure. Maybe we can swap a bagel and lox for some grits and cornbread and call a truce.

[matt_hatter]

You upstaters are probably more like us southerners than most would think. Sat with a Buffalo native at a minor league game--- throw out the accents, there was not a lot of difference in us. I love those chance meetings in life!

Matt

[j2theperson]

***Just didn't want the discussion to turn into the 'ills' in some's minds of southern mores.***

I didn't actually have Southern mores in mind. Brick had said that corporal punishment was standard during the 60s and 70s, he never mentioned anything about the South. (Will I get as much flack for saying I think the 70s represented the nadir of 20th century American culture? The clothes, the music, what were you guys thinking? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif)

Based solely on the story you told, I can't agree with you that Phil B. didn't suffer genuine abuse, nor can I agree with the premise that because *you* survived without scars he did/should have also.

But, I do agree with you that Phil's embellishments were completely wrong and used for a wrong purpose.

[matt_hatter]

The clothes, the music, what were you guys thinking?

But I was a levis, henley T shirts, and chucka boots kind of guy. Now its Lacoste, Columbia kakhis, and sperrys. See, I was better off back then.

Good points j2, uly...always learning, even at 50!

Matt

[robert_unknown]

LOL... my wife and a good friend of mine can remember, that Phil has preached this sermon already 2 times here in Europe at conferences... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

the "deep" sermons are always good to hear more often, isnt it?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[matt_hatter]

the "deep" sermons are always good to hear more often, isnt it?

Robert, this is so funny! His sermon sounds like a bad political stump speech that is repeated over and over. In essence, that is what a lot of their sermons were. 'deep' indeed!

Matt

[philiprosenthal]

We had a similar rubbish sermon from an American with zero Bible comment at His People Cape Town. The sermon was that the pastor got sick after coming back from Africa - so sick that he couldn't work. But instead of letting someone else preach, he decided to keep preaching anyway although he could hardly think straight.

Then Rice Broocks and Jim Laffoon kept phoning him up and calling him 'Superfaith' to encourage him. Then he eventually got better. He flew all the way from America to Cape Town and took 45 minutes of sermon to tell 7000 listeners at the Cape Town church that.

Nothing about God. Nothing about the Bible. Just a sermon about how wonderful Rice and Jim had been to keep phoning him.

All I could think is that he was stupid to keep trying to preach when he was sick and should have rather rested.

The South Africans have also gotten rather fed up with the EveryNation apostles American colonialism. I understand EveryNation never had any success in Europe before His People joined. I don't think they understand how offensive such colonialist behaviour is.

[lc_20]

phil_r,
This is just another example of a self-rigteous sermon. This is why I am appreciating the Methodist church right now. The sermons are about the character of Christ and include nothing about the pastor, his character, his righteousness, his needs... It is so refreshing to get a message from the Living Word on Sunday mornings now. There is a whole lot more offensive about what EN is preaching than just the colonialist behavior. What they are preaching is just not christianity.

[miltietoast]

The sermons are about the character of Christ and include nothing about the pastor, his character, his righteousness, his needs..
If i may interject, I would also add a lot of worship songs we sing today. Many are all about me and my mighty thoughts about Jesus. I can't sing those anymore.I just stand or sit silent.

[lc_20]

Miltie,
I know what you mean. I have a christian CD that has a song about "increase my territory"... I fast forward through it every time. It makes me ill.

[matt_hatter]

lc_20, our pastor only speaks of himself in a self-depricating, humorous manner. Figured out long ago that we are all in the same boat. Seems to have worked. Every major church in Montgomery has left the downtown area and expanded east with the population shift--except our old church established in 1829. Here's why we keep growing:


Letter from Pastor on our website:

Dear Friend,
Let me be among the first to welcome you to the life and ministry of First Baptist Church. First Baptist's greatest desire is to honor the Lord and care for people. First Baptist wants every man, woman and child to experience the life Jesus Christ freely offers to all who will receive Him.

First Baptist extends open arms to all people from all walks of life, from all ethnic, cultural and racial backgrounds who accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. First Baptist believes the Bible is the Word of God and seeks to build its life and practices around its eternal principles.

First Baptist is not perfect. We are sinners, saved by grace, who thirst to be like our Lord Jesus Christ. We are an assembly of the forgiven, and we welcome you among us. Jesus said, "Seek first the kingdom of God!" The fellowship of First Baptist is headed in that direction. Come with us and share the joy!

Love in Christ,
Jay Wolf


It is his humility that keeps me coming back.

For the curious:
http://www.montgomeryfbc.org/

matt

[dust]

Not only was there heretical teachings, it was the "walking it out" there is a general UNCARING attitude, TOO BUSY, doing important things across the world. No time for actually being like Christ.

"You should just have FAITH and everything will be perfect." I was talking with an ex Bethel member last night about times we've all needed ministry and no one was available.

As we were talking, God gave me an example of the twisted faith teaching. He showed me how we make things about US and not HIM, such as the woman who "touched the robe" of Jesus and was healed with her issue of blood. This is always taught as a lesson of great faith, as if it was HER great quality that healed her. BUT, what made her exercise any faith at all?

I realized that this is really ALL ABOUT JESUS because there was something different about HIM, that ministered to people. It was HE, being the light, that DREW people to HIM. While we would be thinking, "if only I had the faith of that woman," the reason she made her way through the crowd was because HE MADE HIMSELF AVAILABLE AS FULL LOVE AND LIFE.

It's not the WOMAN God is telling us to be like. We are to be like CHRIST, salt and light, that people would be drawn to us for ministry, would want to be with us because of the Spirit of Christ in us. It is Christ so wonderful that DRAWS, not us so wonderful in our faith.

And, I said, let's stop STRIVING to be superfaith, Let's strive to WORSHIP and HONOR Jesus and be like Him, so that people will be drawn to US for help, for prayer, for healing, for the gospel.

Another thought on this is those sheep who can't RECOGNIZE where Christ is, and they are touching the robe of RIce and company, but not getting healed.

[robert_unknown]

"The South Africans have also gotten rather fed up with the EveryNation apostles American colonialism. I understand EveryNation never had any success in Europe before His People joined. I don't think they understand how offensive such colonialist behaviour is."

Phil, we had already fascism and kommunism here, so the people are quite suspicous, when it comes to certain things.

i have lost half of my church because, i kept going on with EN. they didnt know why, but they smelled that there was something wrong with EN. after the last conference in Europe, which was a ridiculous experience, many had big problems with EN!

[maranatha1984]

Robert:I owe it that you beat me - thank you for disciplining me".

84: If I could go back to Auburn I would gladly beat the Sh*t out of him and kick him in the A*s every day- he desperately needed it

[maranatha1984]

Dust:Well, you're NOT A SAFETY BELT. You don't need to click."

84: Violent R-E-T-C-H-I-I_n_G Sounds

[jesusisawesome]

Thanks for sharing the letter from your pastor, Matt. THAT is what true pastoral ministry is all about! Jesus welcomed all and served all with open arms, no matter the title, looks, money, or lack of them. He laid down his life for the sheep, and those that are true pastors will do the same. True pastors will not rob the sheep and beat the sheep into submission to what they desire. True pastors are not looking for what they can get out of the sheep, but what they can GIVE to the sheep, and how they can SERVE the sheep. How much of this true pastoral servant leadership do you really see going on in EN?

[jesusisawesome]

Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have become lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>

Hi All -Catching up. Dust Thank you for your post about the woman that was healed by touching His robe. What also speaks to me now, is that she according to Jewish law with her issue of blood was unclean and had been for sometime. He healed her, and it was quite a start to the religious leaders of that day.}

[jesusisawesome]

Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have become lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.

[jesusisawesome]

Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have become lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains; they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.

[jesusisawesome]

Triple-dipping, okay that's a first for me!

[lc_20]

JIA, You should be able to delete the duplicates if you get to them in 10 minutes. Probably to late now. If it happens with long posts, we can write to the moderator to get them cleaned up.

I heard Rice bragging about how people were getting healed in the shadow of one of his disciples/apostles RL. It was said in a joking tone - but not as a joke. He did this while he was a guest speaker at RLs church. Like it was Rice's job to make sure the congregation knew the "giftings" of their pastor. There was no mention of Jesus... all glory to RL that day. I think Rice took on this responsibility to pump up the "giftings" of RL during the divorce so there would be no laps in authority.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

philiprosenthal stated:
"Nothing about God. Nothing about the Bible. Just a sermon about how wonderful Rice and Jim had been to keep phoning him."

brick: philip, i heard this exact same sermon preached a few times in Nashville. about Jim and Rice calling pastor up and speaking "superfaith" to get him on the road to recovery.

i can't believe that i was so spiritually numb to not think (at the time) that was complete lunacy. glad you had enough intestinal fortitude to recognize it.

point: it just shows that EN leaders are just flying city-to-city regurgitating same sermon crap.

[dust]

Brick: I was sitting there somewhere with you in the same service. If you choose to email me you can, if not, I understand.

Coppertree. Yes, Key operating word. HE healed.
In the last few weeks, I keep getting this VISION of touching the robe of Jesus and being healed from this mess of EN. And, knowing it's not ME, the GREAT FAITH ME, it's all HIM. I just need to RECOGNIZE the REAL TRUE JESUS. And, then even the RECOGNITION is because HE SHINES SO BRIGHT. HE makes it possible for me to SEE Him. I think only if you sat in EN faith sermons for years, could you probably understand my point and why I am excited about it. Probably for a normal person in the Body of Christ, they are saying, Dust, so what?

So with humility I have to realize I am deprogramming my brain every day to see JESUS more clearly.

[maranatha1984]

84: Here is our home church- thriving- try to find out ONE thing about our AWESOME pastor. You will not be able to...he is far to humble for that

http://www.trinitybolton.org/index.htm

[jesusisawesome]

IC: You should be able to delete the duplicates if you get to them in 10 minutes. Probably to late now. If it happens with long posts, we can write to the moderator to get them cleaned up.

JIA: Thanks IC. I have to confess, I didn't even think of trying to delete the 2nd/3rd postings. I will try that next time it happens.

[jesusisawesome]

84: try to find out ONE thing about our AWESOME pastor. You will not be able to...he is far to humble for that

JIA: That's the heart of a true pastor.

[jesusisawesome]

In the midst of my pain and confusion upon leaving VCF/Morningstar, the scriptures in Ezekial 34 ministered great comfort to my heart. I hope these scriptures will minister to others. God loves you and is with you!

}Ezekial 34
Shepherds and Sheep
The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
" 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

[jesusisawesome]

" 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

" 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

" 'I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety. I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. [a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. The trees of the field will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

[jesusisawesome]

Please forgive some of the scriptural numbers above . . . thought I had removed them all.

Ezekial 35:11-12
" 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness.

This is what God did for me personally. He sought me out. He bathed and dressed my wounds in the covering of His love.

[jesusisawesome]

I also took comfort in these precious verses:

Romans 9:31-39
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


THAT is security, THAT is safety, THAT is love! God's incredible, unchanging, steadfast love for us.

[coppertree]

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Hi Dust, Yes It is Him whom frees us and as you JIA, have said here in these few posts above on this thread. He is all we need. And to me too He has done this for, it is new every morning. This grace that comes from Him alone is without fear. This group makes creates fear by judging, controlling.. One who feels like they never measure up well.
Those in leadership feel this fear also. It stalks them also.His grace, love and care are able to be known again. He did the same for me, and will do this for others. It feels weird at first odd duck, like one is not in their own skin, so to speak to get away from this group. And to have your mind deprogrammed, renewed by His Spirit.. Wow That is grace, unmerited favor from the Great Shepherd, who as in the scriptures above , is finding and restoring His own.}

[philiprosenthal]

With regard to the comment above: "If i may interject, I would also add a lot of worship songs we sing today. Many are all about me and my mighty thoughts about Jesus. I can't sing those anymore.I just stand or sit silent."

I'm really interested in this comment. Most of this type of worship music is written in the Vineyard at present. That is where I am now. I discussed the matter with them and they explain they aim to promote intimacy with Jesus - rather than just abstract worship from a distance. Thus their common use of personal pronouns in their songs. I felt there was a need for a balance of different types of worship. But now I see your point - I think it fits with my general concern that most of Christian expression today (not just in EN) is selfish rather than Christ-centred. I don't want to divert attention on this thread from EveryNation, but any comments on this, please email to me at philip@rosenthal.net

I will discuss the issue with Vineyard music.