Strange

[yakapo (yakapo)]

I left the EN church in dallas approximately 4 months ago. You think with all the "spiritual family" stuff, someone would have called me at least once. I mean, what if I had fallen into sin...

After serving on staff for years, and then years sponsered as a missionary... not one single phone call.

[speakword2004 (speakword2004)]

Join the club. Well if you ain't spiritual DNA, what do your former masters care? Sarcasm aside, I am sorry to see another person so quickly forgotten and cast aside. Obviously you left on your own volition, but it is sad to see that they don't give a damn why you left and how you are.

If EN started doing exit polls they might realise what harm they are causing believers across the world.

[thunderbug (thunderbug)]

When I was in my EN church they started working on their corporate image and explained why the church was going to be run like a corporation. (They also said that was good for the financial accountability, because many businesses were more accountable than churches. Apparently that did nothing for the financial accountability!)

My question is "If the church is a corporation what about the CUSTOMERS?" So many unsatisfied "customers" and the "corporation" has no curiosity as to why? At least with my shampoo I can return the bottle with the unused contents and get my money back.

Yakapo, no one called me for 9 months, and then when I took the iniative to make contact a leader asked me why I hadn´t visited earlier or stayed in touch. (I had stayed in touch with this leader via email to fulfill a financial obligation I had to some former co-laborers, but he claimed to not have my email address.)

If you want to keep in touch with old friends, etc., you´re going to have to take the initiative.
Think abt yourself. When you were in EN did you have tons of friends outside of EN? Maybe so, but most EN people don´t. There are so many activities inside of EN to keep people busy that most of their friends are also in EN, and they don´t really have time for people outside, except the people they´re reaching out to for evangelism.

[the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come)]

For thunderbug: Keep in mind that Jesus drove out the money changers accusing them of doing "business" in his house. Any church that is run like a business HE accused them as making his house a den of thieves. I am in a silimiar siutation where the church is being operated as a business so after this revelation, I am leaving! Praise God

[bill_mack (bill_mack)]

thunderbug,

"When I was in my EN church they started working on their corporate image and explained why the church was going to be run like a corporation."

I am simply amazed that they would come right out and state this! Maybe I shouldn't be surprised since now we realize that the New Apostolic Reformation(NAR) as conceptualized by C. Peter Wagner (the *SUPER* APostle) is really the old New Order of the Latter Rain revamped with Wagner's "Church Growth" multi-level marketing scheme. Ulyankee tells me that Wagner admits to this...he says the old NOLR was "good" but needed to be marketed correctly...(but isn't this like marketing Dracula...?)

The other facts that relate to this are that the tax exempt 501(c)3 is really a covenant between a religious entity and the government that was cooked up in the early 70's. This evectively overrides the U.S. Constitution, but the issue in the 70's was that there was an explosion of people starting religious entities, such as Bob Weiner's Maranatha, to avoid taxes. No, I did not say Weiner started MCM to avoid taxes; I just said their was an 1000's of start-up churches and cults and the Fed's started the non-profit scheme to counter the influx.

Church V. Corporation?

Really, that's what the 501(c)3 is all about anyway.

[philiprosenthal]

Sorry to hear what happened to Yakapo, although it sounds rather mild compared to what a lot of others have been through. I can't vouch for what is happening in all the EveryNation churches, but Paul Daniel as he backslid, started to run his church 'like a business'. He said so publicly himself, this was not secret. The result is that ministry becomes orientated around fulfilling a vision and money and members are the resources to achieve that. That may not seem too bad, but it is not the Biblical model of church or pastoring. Then when the pastor is totally focused on his 'great vision', the care of the sheep get neglected. The whole concept is deceitful, because the businessman-pastor often thinks he is doing better than other ministers because of his greater income, projects, vision and member growth. Problem is that often in such groups,the care of individuals gets sacrificed towards the achivement of the ministry idols of vision etc.

The business model of ministry was what I think Jesus got angry about when he drove the money changers out of the temple.

But I wouldn't label all EveryNation churches in this category - and even in churches that are run like businesses one does often get some real caring pastors & cell leaders with the heart of a shepherd.

[strongapostolic]

Yak, I know exactly what you mean. I think the part that hurt is what’s really going on. I know their are people who probably want to talk to you, but EN doctrines states that no one is supposed to contact you. I remembered my discipler telling me not to call one of the guys who fall away from the ministry. Even when I say him out at the mall, we acted like he wasn’t even there. That is the sad part of the cult influences that is apart of the Ministry there. It still cuts me to that Heart the Love is Christ that is supposed to be in the Church, isn’t really there. Always reminds me of that verse in Matthews where Jesus said there will be those who will say, “Lord Did we do these things in your Name...." and he will say, “Get ye away from me, I have never know you!" When you don't act in Love, How will you ever know who Christ really is? That is the main reason why I left MS/EN and the Main reason why it hurts to know that people who you called family and then turn around and just act like you are dead to them? What kind of Love is that? It isn't and all it shows is that many will fall to the wayside because of it.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Strong -I went thru this; shunning is so wrong and hurts more than a few.}

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Strong -I went thru this; shunning is so wrong and hurts more than a few.}

[strongapostolic]

Yup, still crazy to see the demonic strong hold that is over their life, but I have to say, I thought it was me until about a years ago. Praise the Lord for his Loving Spirit to show us the Truth! I really don't know where I would be without the Holy Spirit *smile*

[philiprosenthal]

I suppose a relevant question comes down to whether posting here is for purposes of an emotional support group or to reform the organisation. I suppose different people have different reasons. If the reason is to reform EveryNation, then I think the discussion needs to show restraint - otherwise moderate EveryNation leaders may not listen.

[philiprosenthal]

I suppose a relevant question comes down to whether posting here is for purposes of an emotional support group or to reform the organisation. I suppose different people have different reasons. If the reason is to reform EveryNation, then I think the discussion needs to show restraint - otherwise moderate EveryNation leaders may not listen.

[strongapostolic]

I feel Posting here is Probably More on the Informational and Emotional side than anything else. I will tell you this, that there is a lot going on with me outside of this whole situation that God is doing to make changes for that Ministry. God is an awesome God, and if I could show you just a piece of the Blessing he has done in my Life, you would be amazed. But, timing is everything. I have been fervently praying and planning for the day that I work once again with the everynation family and this time it will be to correct what has went wrong.

[40days40years]

Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:17 am:

yakapo: I left the EN church in dallas approximately 4 months ago. You think with all the "spiritual family" stuff, someone would have called me at least once. I mean, what if I had fallen into sin...

After serving on staff for years, and then years sponsered as a missionary... not one single phone call.

yakapo: remember the above post? They called you after this post and many others of yours about Pastor Joe. If there was no internet or you had not posted here? - would you have been called? - Hope your doing well - God Bless.

[freedom43]

yes, we see the shunning -- or just pretending you never existed -- repeated again and again. Same thing with me after 12 years of faithful service and serving the church leadership personally for years. It's been close to 15 years, and I am still waiting for my call. Not! I think these people do run their ministries like a business -- how can they increase their bottom line. More people equals more money in their pyramid who can give give give and serve them, their needs and their egos. They are nothing more than predators. They suck the life out of a person...they suck the marrow out of your bones ... and when you have no more to give and are fed up, you quit. They use people up completely, and then they see no "value" in pursuing you further. They claim God has told them only to invest in those true followers blah blah blah and not to throw their pearls before swine, etc. Or, they say God is pruning the church. They malign those who left by telling folks things you thought were said in the confidence of counseling. Then, they move on to the next victims...invest their energy in people who have something left for them to take. What ever happened to the teaching that Jesus left the 99 sheep and went after the one who was lost? It seems to me that the true Christian response would be to try to help that poor lost soul who was so misguided in leaving your church, rather than ignore, shun or pretend they never existed.

[upcase20]

Maranatha/EN uses people up and when people get smart they M/EN moves onto others more naive until people figure the game out. College students are especially vulnerable, thats why the ministry was geared for them.

[robert_unknown]

in 1984 its called "vaporized"... not just killing hte person, but also destorying all memories, all entried in databases, newspapers, telefonebooks...

you can see this same thing on their webpages. people who left, people who get disciplined, devorced or fell in miscredit, just disapear from their webpages. no matter how many years they have been active part of the church!

i am only wondering how it is possible that all the former friends and people who knew one forget.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All


I was on staff when I and my family were shunned , push to devalue mine and my family's good work and service. We worked with all our heart, often without pay in many long hours. It was after 12 years of service, support to this group. It started after a gave a prophetic word to our regional staff leaders at a staff meeting. It was about not giving the best seats to the wealthy, prominent persons but to consider the lowest ones in their society. I had given many words, at baptisms, at meetings, in counselling situations, from the stage at large meetings. There were always others to judge my words.After this scripture that I gave as a small teaching, the discrediting process started quickly with the head pastor. He felt like something was wrong with us. He could not put his finger on it but definately something was wrong with me and my mate. This went on for a while, he would never give it up. Although others along with us in leadership did not agree with him. I gave several more prophecies that were right on; some from the stage and in smaller meetings. I was followed, everything I did was reported and judged by the head pastor alone. Older words were studied for accuratecy; again this test was passed. Still we were felt to be " wrong "in some undefinable aspect. The regional pastor, who was the head pastor of my church brought in or sent us out to see national leaders. They were asked to come inspect us on a deeper level. Two parties of these national leaders (they international leaders also) felt that we were ok. Still the head pastor pressed on , he could not be wrong, he had this feeling after all. A gossip, slander camphain began then; it this point I withdrew my family. The pressure on us was unbelievable, and unrelenting, and now getting nasty. It was hurting our relationship,now and our walk with Him. I thought head pastor, who at one time was a good friend of ours; was going to have a heart related stress attack, or stroke. As he would not give up, or be convinced that he could be mistaken. He is now a national leader with a great house.



We were shunned, horrible things were said about us to our follow elders about us having sin in our lives, unrepentant sin. From the pulpit , we were denounced as Satin. When I saw people from the church after this , they would cross the street to avoid me. After all this time, it still occurs; a few months ago, a dear sweet woman who knew us both ran from me in a farmer's market in fear. We felt like we were shipwreaked with the boat being our old home. It took a long time to recover, but when we began a successful business in a few years and did well. They began to entreat us for money.}

[robert_unknown]

"He felt like something was wrong with us. He could not put his finger on it but definately something was wrong with me and my mate. "

there definetly was something wrong with you guys, the Pastor couldnt stand! I see this very clear...

You had a heart for the lost, and for people generally. That was his problem with you.

its exactly like the unethical companies that produce in the 3rd world, underpay the workers (or dont pay at all), and if someone questions thius, the police makes their lives hard.

a Pastor who does somethinkl like you shared here, is NO Pastor (sheperd) - hes just a hireling. A wolf in sheap-wool.

you can be PROUD that they dont talk good about you! shows that you chose the right road! if they would talk good about you, you probably would be like them!

[forword]

Coppertree, please prayerfully consider naming names. It is time for these leaders to be held accountable. The new leadership needs to know who the wolves are. So do the lurking sheep.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
hi Forward , thank you , sorry about mispelling, typist mistakes on my post . I tried to go back, to fix them, but I am sure that you know satin, is not satin..lolol
These pastors have been well named already, many times, and in several areas of our nation. More than once , they were relocated because of problems in the press and between them and people in their church. They were untouchable, this was under Maranatha, they will say, and in MSI yet they are in En now. My family asked me not to so, name people, as the as the song says, the beat goes on..
So when Ginger says Phil will be back ( he was not my head pastor); I now think that she well maybe right. But thank you so much for your care, and prayers.}

[maranatha1984]

Yak:After serving on staff for years, and then years sponsered as a missionary... not one single phone call.

84: I know this is a heartbreaking time for you...e-mail me if you would like
Maranathaoriginal@yahoo.com

When I left the opposite happened- I was "attacked' an the cut off- it was horrible- now I see it as a blessing- but at the time...

Tikie

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Robert- Thank you so for your kind words to me, as ever they are a balm to me, a cup of cool water, thank you. It helps, yes we are not alone, in this. We did choose the right way ; but it is a hurt that I have felt but this humbles me as it did perhaps like Peter and Paul, and Patrick ( who was not catholic( in latin it means universal) as we think now). A humble and broken heart He can use. I pray for those, to know the Peace that only He can give; that of a good conscience. Thanks again, looking forward to your next post. Many are watching ,here. You are doing much good.}

[jesusisawesome]

Coppertree, BTW, you are also like a cup of cool water, and a blessing to many here on Factnet.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Jesus is Awesome,- Thank you so much for your words and input and care. It means a lot to me. I have read your posts and the kind help that you have given. I am so sorry for the pain that you went through; your posts tell your experience well. Thank you, I know lots of people are watching, I hope they too will know what we now have.}

[jesusisawesome]

Coppertree, there was a time when I couldn't say this, but now I can: I'm thankful for what I went through, and it makes Christ shine all the more beautifully in His purity and love and goodness to me.

[maranatha1984]

Copper:A gossip, slander camphain began then; it this point I withdrew my family. The pressure on us was unbelievable, and unrelenting, and now getting nasty. It was hurting our relationship,now and our walk with Him. I thought head pastor, who at one time was a good friend of ours; was going to have a heart related stress attack, or stroke. As he would not give up, or be convinced that he could be mistaken. He is now a national leader with a great house.

84: I know my friend I know...what was wrong with you???? Well...they probably 'sensed" that you were going to call them on it...to give them trouble...and as soon as you were of no "value" or worse...that you could cause trouble then out you went...but it was not enough to banish someone like you...your name must be savaged and your reputation ruined...so your influence would be destroyed amongst those that stayed...

arrgh...my friend....but THANKS BE TO GOD for HIS Blessing and Grace and for our LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS FAITHFUL TO US...

84 to JIA: Yes- some misinterpret my use of HOTEL CALIFORNIA- I would not go through it again...but I would not change one thing and am Thankful that I can not and was not able to change anything...