Pray for the EN Leaders

[justyn_m]

Topic: Pray for the EN Leaders

Text: Philippians 1:1, “to all the saints… including the overseers and deacons”

Theme: Faithful spiritual leaders are worthy of your appreciation and esteem.

Paul’s salutation includes the “overseers and deacon” at Philippi. That probably is not a reference to elders and deacons as we know them, but is a general reference to all the Philippian saints, including spiritual leaders (overseers) and those who followed (servants).

That implies unity and submission within the church, which brings joy to leaders and followers alke. Hebrews 13:17 emphasizes that point: “Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”

Spiritual leadership is a sacred responsibility. Leaders are to lead, feed, and guard the flock of God, which Christ “purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:28) They are accountable to God Himself for the faithful discharge of their duties.

You have a sacred responsibility as well: to obey and submit to your leaders. Hebrews 13:7 says, “Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; considering the outcome of their way of life, imitate their faith.” Paul adds in 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13, “Appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and… esteem them very highly in love because of their work.”

Sadly, our society encourages criticism and mistrust of anyone in authority. Verbal assaults and character assassinations are in common. Many within the church have adopted that attitude toward their spiritual leaders, whom they view as functionaries or paid professionals. Consequently, many churches today are weak and ineffective from disunity and strife. Many pastors suffer untold grief from disobedient and ungrateful people.

You must never succumb to that mentality. Your leaders deserve your appreciation and esteem, not because they are exceptionally talented or have winsome personalities, but because of the sacred work God has called them to do.

Your godly attitude toward your spiritual leaders will contribute immeasurably to harmony and unity within your church.

Suggestions for prayer: Thank God for your spiritual leaders. Pray for them and encourage them often.

For Further Study: Read 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. What right was Paul discussing? What illustrations did he use?

Referefence: John Macarthur, “Drawing Near: Daily Readings for a Deeper Faith,” (Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1993), (The Joy of Spirital Unity, Feb. 8)

[ginger1]

Justyn M, go ahead pray for them, As I recall couple of years ago, God has brought JUDGEMENT To the Philippine Victory ministry. There was a sweeping Death of SENIOR PASTORS FIRST BORN SONS in the Philippine churches. And its either Head injury , Meningitis, or Accidents to the head of these Children.

These are happening ONLY TO THE SENIOR PASTORS and THEIR FIRST BORN SON. And what amazing is ALL OF the attacked were ON THE HEAD.

I won't be surprised it might happen again. And I know One of the first born son that died is Ariel.

I guess nobody has learned any of the lessons, God is still mocked at that church. And this just happened two years ago.

I know that a lot of Senior Pastors start asking what were their SINS when that happened , They start to be afraid that they are next. They all knew that was God's Judgement. I guess two years was way too long to remember what happened.

[robert_unknown]

"You have a sacred responsibility as well: to obey and submit to your leaders. "

1:Tim.5,17ff

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,"[b] and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

1 Timothy 3
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

i pray that they start to recognize WHAT a leader OUGHT to be! That God openes their eyes, like he opened mine, that they might recognize their abuse and their lack of moral, like he showed me.


"Your leaders deserve your appreciation and esteem, not because they are exceptionally talented or have winsome personalities, but because of the sacred work God has called them to do. "

they deserve NOTHING only based on their position. If they are RESPECTABLE (which they have to proof through a integer and moral life) then they deserve appreciation and esteem.

[40days40years]

O.K justyn I will pray for them, they are not our leaders at this place though but I will pray.

[speakword2004]

JustynM:
Kiss your bosses <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> behind closed doors, not here.

[justyn_m]

From: "Ginger"

Justyn M, go ahead pray for them, As I recall couple of years ago, God has brought JUDGEMENT To the Philippine Victory ministry. There was a sweeping Death of SENIOR PASTORS FIRST BORN SONS in the Philippine churches. And its either Head injury , Meningitis, or Accidents to the head of these Children.

These are happening ONLY TO THE SENIOR PASTORS and THEIR FIRST BORN SON. And what amazing is ALL OF the attacked were ON THE HEAD.

I won't be surprised it might happen again. And I know One of the first born son that died is Ariel.

I guess nobody has learned any of the lessons, God is still mocked at that church. And this just happened two years ago.

I know that a lot of Senior Pastors start asking what were their SINS when that happened , They start to be afraid that they are next. They all knew that was God's Judgement. I guess two years was way too long to remember what happened.

===================================

Dear Friend,

It is unfortunate that you are now resorting to ad hominem attack by including the family of some pastors. I believe you have to read the book of Job, I mean meditate on it deeply so you will know that even God's people are not spared from trials and testings. Just to refresh your memory, all of Jobs children died and not just his firstborn. Your subjective reasoning will not hold water my friend. By the way, please post words of encouragement and not condemnation next time. After all, condemnation is not the practice of God's people. God bless you!

Justyn M.

[justyn_m]

From: "speakword2004"

Justyn M. Kiss your bosses ••• behind closed doors, not here.

==================================

Dear Friend,

Why don't you type those words? Is it because the real nature of "speakword2004" is already showing? The truth hurts right?

Jutyn M.

[40days40years]

justyn you have been gone a long time, why are you back? Is it because crazy Ginger hit the bee hive with a big stick again? Your english is improving, are you a Mancoa disciple too? Are you a fan of Juan Carlos Ortiz?

[dazzla]

Justyn,

You are right, we should all pray for our spiritual leaders and thank god for putting us in their path.
What happens when they sin ? and sin again ? and fail to display the very godly characteristics they demand of others ?
Fail to truly repent ?

At what point would you personally stop thanking God for this spiritual leader and pray that God replaces him with a truly Godly leader ?

[philiprosenthal]

I support Justyn in his call for prayer above.

I feel that those who criticise but don't also pray, are not likely to be speaking God's will anyway. There is a massive difference between constructive criticism intended to help and find truth vs destructive criticism intended to destroy or just vent anger. There may be value in venting anger somewhere, but rather on the phone to your friend - not on the internet, where it can destroy more than benefit. I also note from some of the other threads that some posters seem to be just criticising on the basis of their feelings rather than in terms of the Word of God. I know I am probably going to upset some people on FactNet by saying this, but your feelings are a dangerous guide and can easily be fully or partly incorrect. They also have little or no authority, while the Word of God does have authority.

I would also appeal to others not to criticise Justyn ad hominem. Even if you don't agree with him on some points, his participation in this forum is constructive. EveryNation needs more 'safe dialogue' - not less. Criticise his arguments if you disagree with him, but don't just insult him. If he just gets mobbed with ad hominem attacks when he comes here, then we are effectively doing the same thing that we are objecting to in many EveryNation churches - where all dissenting voices are silenced by personal attacks on the dissenter. Surely we want to promote a more mature culture? How else can the organisation reform unless we set an example.

I include the EveryNation leaders in my prayers almost daily. I encourage others who post here to do so also. To turn this organisation around, we need a miracle. That is only going to come from prayer. With regard to the issue of God's judgement, I feel a helpful prayer to pray is: 'God raise up righteous leaders and bring down the wicked'. God knows better than us which are righteous and which are wicked.

His People Ministries was birthed and exploded as a result of fervent ongoing sacrificial prayer. Unfortunately, backslidden leaders discouraged this towards more superficial selfish personal need prayer. There is a place for the latter, but we must get back to serious prayer to save the organisation.

Thanks Justyn for starting this thread and being brave enough to participate in this forum. I hope other EveryNation leaders will follow your example.

[mdillon]

“Lord, I pray for the EN leaders. Since I do not know all of them, I will pray for the few I do. I pray that You will have mercy on their lives as some of them are in danger right now of losing their entire families because of adulterous affairs and financial embezzlement of Your sheep’s money. Help them find their way back to You, even if they lose everything precious to them in this life, they will at least have You for eternity. I pray for those that have strayed from their first love of following You and have been co-opted by an antichrist gospel because of delusional greed, even though You promised to turn such over to their own delusion, I pray Lord you have mercy. Help them untangle their minds from an Americanized version of “ministry” that in truth is idolatry and when their false world of “ministry” fails them please give them a job where they can learn to work and serve again. Give them grace, Lord, when they understand that it is Obscurity that they fear the most and the place You are calling them so they will know You once again. Ease their heart, dear Lord, when You show them Your true self, the suffering, the pain, loving the unlovable…this is what scares them the most because they stand the chance of losing all of their status and worldly goods just to see You for who You really are.

Now, God, I was going to bring up that thing about all the spiritual, emotional, financial, and physical abuse that has been in their trail for the past 30 some odd years, but I’ve gotta go. But just so You know, I’ve forgiven them of my little tiff since it pales in comparison to so many here, I guess maybe you should blind their eyes from FactNet because so many here are finding You again and being healed and such, you know, it might be a downer for them to know that.

We lift them up in Jesus name----------amen”

[dust]

Justyn: Spiritual leadership is a sacred responsibility. Leaders are to lead, feed, and guard the flock of God, which Christ “purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:28) They are accountable to God Himself for the faithful discharge of their duties.

Dust: I ask you, Justyn, WHO, WHERE, HOW were these men put into place as leaders? As I review the history, they are broken off from men who have broken off from their leaders (in criticism and with many problems) and there is no evidence of these SELF-APPOINTED as having any sacred position from God.

You say they are responsible for me. The only way I was able to get any kind of training from them was to PAY for it, and this was beyond my tithing in the form of VLI (or ENLI). The Sunday sermons did NOT give adequate instruction or help or counsel or ministry. Actually, I believe I did more actually "ministry" at the services than many of the pastors, and MORE hands-on ministry in prayer, instruction, and counsel than I saw pastors do, especially because I FOLLOWED up and really cared...

Sadly, when I needed the same thing in return, no one was AVAILABLE. Think long and hard on this, Justyn. When I count the hours I actually taught, preached, ministered, counseled, prayed for/with congregants, via altar ministry, prayer meetings and home groups, and more, I could be considered (by all biblical standards) a pastor/minister. The very few times our family actually needed the church, we were told, UNAVAILABLE.

Justyn, you write: Hebrews 13:7 says, “Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; considering the outcome of their way of life, imitate their faith.” Paul adds in 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13, “Appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and… esteem them very highly in love because of their work.”

I wholeheartedly agree with you. What I can't agree with, is that the leaders YOU are defending fit that position or responsibility.

We PAID for our instruction. It was very very impersonal and had VERY LITTLE BIBLE in it. And, when we had a family crises and needed anyone (once physical, once family issue), NO ONE available. We realized too late, that our family life was at risk in this church. We could only be perfect and in the role of lay pastors, but, we couldn't be in the role of sheep.

So when you try to make your point, you have to first establish that these men of God actually step into their position as pastors first. I haven't seen this or experienced this. Not by any biblilcal standard that was set by Jesus Christ and the apostles.

[matt_hatter]

justyn, what dust said.

Matt

[robert_unknown]

sorry, but it makes me sooo angry!

justin - you are 100% right when you remind us to pray for them!

but PLEASE dont tell us that they are OUR leaders! they are not! they have not earned leadership over our lives.
and there is NO way, that they get it for FREE again!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 12, 2006)

[ginger1]

Justyn M, remind your Philippine Leaders God's judgement. These are in scriptures. As I spoke to one of your Asian Board members, he told me that revival still exist in the Philippines. Now in the book of Acts, Saphira and her husband DECIDED to lie to the Holy Spirit and BOTH struck dead.

In the time of revival, like the book of Acts, one has to be careful when the Lord's Presence is there. Normally, for us regular people, if we lied to the Holy Spirit, Nothing will happen, I see that all the time in EN people and leaders. BUT NOT DURING THE TIME OF REVIVAL. God does not tolerate DELIBERATE SIN.
You can also read about the life of MOSES , he struck the rock only twice and the punishment to him is severe. He is not allowed to enter the Promised Land.

THOSE KIDS THAT DIED, ALL of them FIRSTBORN SONS of THE SENIOR PASTORS , THOSE WERE GOD'S JUDGEMENT for the SINS of that MINISTRY.

This is very different from Job. Job recovered AND he received Double protions of the blessings and children. THe Philippine Senior Pastors DID NOT. Instead SINS were being EXPOSED.
YOUR OWN SENIOR PASTORS KNEW That WAS GOD'S JUDGEMENT THAT PASS BY. THEY DO NOT DENY THAT WAS GOD'S JUDGEMENT. You are the only one who is DECEIVED that is like Job. Even your OWN people in the philippines DOES NOT EVEN SAY THAT.

AS I said, Ariel Have Forgotten his Firstborn son died for NO reason. 2 years ago that happened, you guys totally FORGOT about it. So go ahead keep on sinning, I won't be surprised God will come again and struck your Ministry the second time.

[ginger1]

I still remember Joey Bonifacio also firstborn son almost died. he was playing basketball, he fell on HIS HEAD, struck the concrete pavement. The whole church was called to pray, he was in the hospital for two months as I recall. He almost died.

A few survive the Lord's judgement. Its the same thing happened during the time of Moses when God struck ALL THE FIRSTBORN SON of the EGYPTIANS. That is definitely His Hand.

So Go ahead and pray like the Pharasees, keep mocking God, keep on sinning. Keep on the cover up. I do not have have to even pray for your Philippine Leaders, God Knows how to deal with your people.
God's judgement and Mercy goes hand in hand. Mercy for the unbelievers in the Philippines and Judgement for those who sinned, deliberate sin in their heart in the Philippine Leadership. Thats how revival works in the book of Acts.

The EN leaders prays for revival here in america, they DO NOT KNOW what they are asking for.

[ginger1]

I remember when I just got born again, not in maranatha yet. I was in the United Petecostal church. Oneness doctrine.

I was in bed asleep, the Lord took me to the heavenly realms, I saw His Throne. Immedietly, I was terrified, I was very conscious of my sins. I said this to myself 3 times, I am going to die, I am going to die , I am going to die. You can feel His presence, Pure Holiness and you will be conscious of your sins. He is bright, brighter than the Sun, I tried looking straight but I cannot.

Then I realized I did not die. The whole time, I felt his Holiness, PURE, very PURE HOLY. I never felt anything like that again ever after that. Thats whats its like when God presence is near. The whole time, nobody even taught me that nobody can stand in His Holiness. Yet in my consciousness I know. I cannot stand it, all I know I am going to die.

Thats how it is like when there is revival. Sins cannot be tolerated if the Lord's presence is Near. When revival is present.

You can go ahead and mock me Justyn M. Go ahead and mock God. God knows how to deal with people like you.

[jayhernandez]

justyn, what matt hatter said.

Let me add also that some of this sounds like the global denial of the real "real war" we are fighting. The leftest uncensored media. These middle east sympathy folks are saying that we are the cause of this war by the mere association with republican thinking that has a protestant slant. But the truth is that we are all living with a radical religious group that wants to take over the world. I see that what sounds like a bunch of muslims asking for praying that the "stray" ones would tone it down, or reform.
Not that anyone here is muslim or even from the worng position to pray- we are suppose to pray for everyone anyway. I can honestly say that I pray for them but it isn't of special importance over anything else that I pray for. They are all important.

So to remind those here and me (because I read here ) that we need to pray- is good, but to take that oppertunity to throw in your own little gasp of hope for them as a body to reform allows them the integrity of their self appointed identity. An identity that we as believers don't need to spell out for anyone anymore.

I am weary of those who would throw the net to snare the bird by saying that "being critical" means your narrow, and closed minded, or out of Spirit. Sure we are to pray for them but as soon as I say "them" - (to you who said it's being critical)- think I'm saying "them" as different and less Holy then me. I am not saying this. Rather I am saying don't perpetuate "them" as a group outside and then say that someone like me who doesn't agree with their teachings as someone who is just a "hater", a radical persecutor, and therby make them out to be the victim. Those who know better cannot allow those here who sympathize with do this without making comment to it. I am thankful for those who did. It nice to know that I can go away for a few days or weeks or months and know that people here know what is going on and warning others.

jay

[gilligan]

Yes its biblical to pray for our church (and political leaders). But is EN/VCF a church or a cult? Edward Dalcour has 2 very detailed documents regarding EN and Justynm.

This is the whole point - any church leadership that uses Scripture to justify their man-made doctrines, self-preservation and falsehood should be exposed.

Cover-up (EN/VCF style) is justified by a "need to know" policy, which by the way, is exactly identical to human rights coverups of communist governments.

Should we pray for our leaders? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that we should unconditionally serve the works of ungodly, dictatorial leaders and their coverups.

[wildwood_]

Justyn M

If you have an opportunity to check posts under my name, you’ll discover that I’ve been praying for a while…for a man whose actions I do not understand (nor do I need to), but whose heart for the Lord, I stubbornly believe in. This Leader, My Brother in Christ, has wounded those who post on this board; yet, I’ve been welcomed, my prayers for him accepted with grace, and I’m relearning the Joy of Jesus.

This I Believe: Any "Leader" who reaches out with a heart for Jesus towards those here--those whose tears are so plainly seen…
This leader,This Man would learn the Joy of Returning to His First Love…
A Child on a Swing-set flying towards Heaven; trusting the laughing hands of his friends to push him higher.

Perhaps, you did not mean to imply those on this board had not been praying. But the opening reads somewhat as an accusation unto prayer. Do not ever think that those who post on this board have not been praying; they’ve been praying for some of the men who fall into the title “Leader” for years. Only, Justyn…they didn’t start praying for them because they were instructed to do so, threatened by loss of protection, or because they were bribed by offers of Spiritual Blessings or Power…If you take the time, you’ll discover that most started praying for these men and women…out of Love. I’ve been praying for <u>over thirty years</u>, well before I knew EN existed…for My Friend, My Brother, a Fellow Servant of the Lord Jesus Christ.

<font size="+1">Justyn, how long have you been praying for the Heart of the Man and not just the Crown of the Leader? </font>

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Widwood-Thank you so much for your posts. You know that my heart is with you in your prayers! }

[justyn_m]

From: "philiprosenthal"

Thanks Justyn for starting this thread and being brave enough to participate in this forum. I hope other EveryNation leaders will follow your example.

======================================

Dear Friend,

Thanks also for your encouraging words. I will continue to encourage the people here as long as I have the time. May the Lord grant those offended people the healing balm and learn to accept that God will be their vindicator. However, instead of maligning, accussing, bad mouthing, and cursing some Every Nation leaders, why don't you go inside your room and pray for God to heal you. I suggest the following for those who were hurt:

1. Go look for another church and leave everything in the hands of God. After all, you are not the Holy Spirit who does the conviction.

2. After finding your own local church, focus on your new vision and mission. Do not spend your time posting on this FactNet because it only robs you of your precious time to win and share the gopel to other people.

3. Learn to forgive. Remember, unforgiveness will eat you up. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. Bless and do not curse (Rom. 12:14)

4. Don't look for other people who also has some bitterness over some Every Nation leaders. Remember, bad company corrupts good character. (1 Cor. 15:33)

5. If you really are not led anymore to Every Nation then please leave them alone and focus on the things of God. Do not act as if you are the vindicator.

Unfortunately, some people here in the FactNet made a career of lambasting some of the Every Nation leaders as if they are receiving a huge monthly salary for doing this. Please learn to love one another.

"How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!" (Psa 133:1)

God bless you and your family!

Justyn M.

[justyn_m]

From: "Ginger1"

THOSE KIDS THAT DIED, ALL of them FIRSTBORN SONS of THE SENIOR PASTORS , THOSE WERE GOD'S JUDGEMENT for the SINS of that MINISTRY.

This is very different from Job. Job recovered AND he received Double protions of the blessings and children. THe Philippine Senior Pastors DID NOT. Instead SINS were being EXPOSED.
YOUR OWN SENIOR PASTORS KNEW That WAS GOD'S JUDGEMENT THAT PASS BY. THEY DO NOT DENY THAT WAS GOD'S JUDGEMENT. You are the only one who is DECEIVED that is like Job. Even your OWN people in the philippines DOES NOT EVEN SAY THAT.

AS I said, Ariel Have Forgotten his Firstborn son died for NO reason. 2 years ago that happened, you guys totally FORGOT about it. So go ahead keep on sinning, I won't be surprised God will come again and struck your Ministry the second time.

==================================

Dear Friend,

Oh, maybe you were not informed that Ptr. Ariel and his wife has already been blessed by God with a child and another one to come. I call that double portion of blessing. I was also reminded of Job's friends who accuse him of a lot of things which are not true but in the end they were proven wrong. Oh well, I encourage you to read the book of Job. God bless you and may the Lord grant you double portion of His blessings also.

Justyn M.

[jesusisawesome]

Justyn, this is not about vindication. This is about standing up for what is right and helping those that are victims of spiritual abuse.

[miltietoast]

Justin you are probably right. God is allowing the EN leadership bully,whip ,cheat,backbite and slaughter His sheep so they can grow in Him.Too bad the EN leaders have cleverly protected themselves from any such growth. As I look at Christianity over the years I have to ask myself,"Do sheep kill sheep?" The answer is not comforting. The Jews killed believers then the unbelievers killed the believers.Then the Catholics and Protestants(protesters)including Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli slaughtered the believers.Today? I would have to add many EN leaders to the group of sheep slaughterers. It is not what they say it is what they do.A few red letter words for you to pray about."<font color="ff0000">Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing,but inwardly they are ravening wolves.You shall know them by their fruits..."
</font><font color="000000"> Here is my prayer ,And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Hang in their sheep and let the butchers of EN fulfill their destiny</font>

[miltietoast]

excuse me justin my dear friend I forgot to close properly God bless you and may the Lord give you discernment between shears and swords.God bless

[mcmstaff78]

Justyn_m: You must never succumb to that mentality. Your leaders deserve your appreciation and esteem, not because they are exceptionally talented or have winsome personalities, but because of the sacred work God has called them to do.

Me: This is the problem, these are *not* God's leaders. These are self-appointed men who abuse sincere and innocent people. What gives them the right, the authority, to call themselves "apostles", "prophets", even "evangelists" or "pastors"? They created their own little kingdom and annointed themselves. They are not connected historically with the Church, but have simply continued to make further divisions within the Christian community. They do not *serve*, they lord it over. They do not *give*, they take and justify it. These are not men of God, much less "leaders". They are servants of destruction. Nothing more, nothing less. I *do* pray for them, and all caught up in this web of deception, that they may be illumined and delivered from their deception and brought into the Truth!

[philiprosenthal]

Justyn writes: "After finding your own local church, focus on your new vision and mission. Do not spend your time posting on this FactNet because it only robs you of your precious time to win and share the gopel to other people. "

Justyn sorry no I disagree here. There are good reasons to post after you have left EN.

1. Most do not actually realise how totally crazy things are in the denomination until they have spent a few months in another church. I think the same may happen to you if you left to go somewhere else (unless Manila is more sane). Thus those who have left have wisdom to share with those inside.

2. Most people inside want to protect the leaders even when they are wrong. Thus they don't exchange information about the crazy stuff. Only after they have left do they exchange information with others on FactNet and elsewhere and then realise how totally crazy things are. One needs to put together the bits of information to build up the sad picture, else one can just dismiss it as anecdotal.

3. The culture of fear stops a lot of people talking about problems. Those who have left have less to fear, since they are no longer under the cultish authoritarians. It is almost impossible for those inside to speak up without being thrown out. So then if your advice was followed, then no one would speak up at all and the organisation would blunder on from one mistake to the next.

4. When people leave, they learn theological truths they were not taught in EveryNation - gaps which are in part the reason for why things have gone crazy - so they have this wisdom to share with those inside. FactNet and the REformation station are good places to post these.

5. Many people have cited the emotional healing benefit that has come from sharing stories with others on the internet - which has helped them for example to reduce the uncertainty over the question of whether those who abused them were acting in an ungodly manner.

Your argument relies on the assumption that just spreading the gospel is the main issue. This is not true. One needs to spread not just the gospel, but the true pure gospel. A culture of fear, intimidation, manipulation, hyper-authoritarianism, cover-ups, elitism is not true Christian practice. It is not really worth spreading. People may be attracted from more healthy churches to the hype in EveryNation and end up worse off than before. People on this board are calling EveryNation-His People denomination to repent of their sins and reform. Thats painful but we must do it.

Maybe the issues above do not all apply to your home church, but they do apply to a lot of churches and those who are spiritually responsible must not ignore them.

[lablady2]

One more good reason to post: exercising your Freedom.

You are free as human being to tell your truth. Your truth may be an opinion or just your experience, but it is the truth of your life.

Those who haven't experienced Freedom in a while are often threatened by those who choose to do so. The have been conditioned to see self-expression as a "sin." If you are in a church (or any organization for that matter) that makes you feel that you are not free to express an opposing thought or idea, run for your life.

God allowed Moses to appoint 70 elders to help him with the problems of the Israelites while in the desert. According to traditional rabbinic thought, the 70 elders represented 70 differing opinions, a number thought to reflect the majority of opinions that might be proposed regarding any topic. Each opinion was valuable and had to be considered in order to reach a balanced and fair decision. Even today, all "dissenting" opinions are left in Jewish law to insure that diversity of thought remains a high priority. Hence the old saying, two Jews = 3 opinions.

Narrowing your thought life can be very dangerous. Diversity of thought is not to be feared, my friend. Diversity equals strength, equality, fairness and balance, which is exactly why it is so feared by those who wish to control.

[nicknak]

Phil said: "When people leave, they learn theological truths they were not taught in EveryNation - gaps which are in part the reason for why things have gone crazy - so they have this wisdom to share with those inside. FactNet and the REformation station are good places to post these."

The one theological truth that was lacking in my MCM days was "Jesus loves me this I know." I was so caught up in man pleasing that my focus was not on Jesus and His tremendous love for ME! I was going to meetings 7 days a week, prayer meetings at least twice a week, Friday night banquet, campus preaching, discipling and "hootah" sessions (Lord forgive Me!), handing out flyers, preaching the "cause" of MCM. All the while, digging deep into my families pockets for the last coin.

Phil said, "Many people have cited the emotional healing benefit that has come from sharing stories with others on the internet - which has helped them for example to reduce the uncertainty over the question of whether those who abused them were acting in an ungodly manner."

Thank God for my brothers and sisters on FactNet! I went for 18 years without the knowledge that there were others that shared my own history..believing that I was somehow at fault for the "church" abandoning me and my family. Bitter?? Yes, I have been bitter, but through others testimonies here, I am finding forgivness and peace. Guilty?? Yes, I discipled many people over the years..may God forgive me for causing any to stray. Angry?? Yes, I am very angry that the things I and so many others went through is STILL going on!

Justyn_m, you talk of forgivness and moving on. Forgivness..not a problem. Moving on..NOT going to happen!! As long as the sheep are being led to slaughter, their pocketbooks being emptied first, there will be those standing on the watch towers of the city crying out to all that have ears to hear! justyn_m..OPEN YOUR EARS!

I realize it is hard to see the insanity of EN because you are right in the center, defending its honor. Please, step back and consider what is being said here on FactNet. We are witnesses..first hand, up close, in your face witnesses.

[dazzla]

Justyn...

Somehow I admire your belief and your persistence in returning your feelings back to Scripture but it saddens me at the same time that someone that so clearly has a faithful heart has been so misguided by MAN.
Your heart is needed by God and I pray that one day you will find true salvation in God, not via Man.
Just to revert on some of your points...
1. Go look for another church and leave everything in the hands of God. After all, you are not the Holy Spirit who does the conviction.
----- MOST PEOPLE HERE HAVE ALREADY FOUND ANOTHER CHURCH

2. After finding your own local church, focus on your new vision and mission. Do not spend your time posting on this FactNet because it only robs you of your precious time to win and share the gopel to other people.
----- "MISSION and VISION" are EN Leadership inducing corporate terminology that has nothing to do with Christ...and makes my hairs stand on end when I read this.
You cannot deny that many people here are scarred and need to heal.

3. Learn to forgive. Remember, unforgiveness will eat you up. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. Bless and do not curse (Rom. 12:14)

---- Most people I read here are people very much seeking healing and forgiveness for those that have hurt them, praying for EN leaders and their followers to see the true light that exists beyond themselves.

4. Don't look for other people who also has some bitterness over some Every Nation leaders. Remember, bad company corrupts good character. (1 Cor. 15:33)

Please excuse my simplicity but if followers of Christ had taken your suggestion of not seeking others who have been illed by their faith...
...we would not have the New Testament.

"How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!" (Psa 133:1)
---- Correct, this site would not exist if EN leaders had been god centred rather than self centred....thus creating brotherly dis-unity.


Justyn I notice something consistent in your posts, not once do you acknowledge that people here may have suffered at the hands of EN leaders and their disciples.... I'm not surprised because you clearly have a calling to come here to defend EN.


But I have three sincere open questions for you....

Do you pray for people on this website ?

What are your prayers ?

If these people were saying the same about Iglesia ni Cristo or some other church in Philippines... how would you reach out to them ?

[gilligan]

Evidently, one of the instructions volunteered by justynm reflects another deep-rooted cultural and cultish practice of VCF.

The "look for another church" is practical, under normal circumstances, but VCF is not normal. Their cover-up of varying anomalies (sometimes illegal or unlawful) benefits only themselves and their positions - but not the welfare of God's people. You cannot suppress the truth (or the expose of anomalies) and expect that God will bless your justifications just because you are the church leader (by the way, "church leadership" does not automatically equate "spiritual leadership"). Especially when the issue of "cult" becomes central to the troubles.

The "look for another church" officially started by VCF's Senior Elder, about 3 months ago and since then has been happily echoed by several VCF pastors whenever they lack the maturity to address fundamental disagreements with lay church leaders. But this is where the problem lies - the church belongs to God, not the leaders. But somehow the VCF leaders, as displayed by their fruit, behave like they own the church and that the members are appointed by God to serve them, their families, and just about every other area of their lives. The tithe belongs to God (not the pastoral leaders) and that confirms the true ownership of the church. But again, the VCF leaders do not know how to make the distinction. They really believe that financial accountability is not a concrete or mandatory public obligation but is only revealed on a "need to know" basis.

If the leaders had a genuine sense of repentance for anomalies, they should be the first to admit it. Instead of denials and then blame it on the whistle blower with the manipulative accusations of gossip, bitterness, offense, etc. But simply because VCF, just like EN, lacks true accountability, serious anomalies will only grow to the point that all their efforts of control will look more and more rotten.

Once again, a cult holds everyone captive in bondage. From the bottom all the way to the top. No one escapes it. That's always the fruit in a man-centered church movement wrapped with scriptures (the plain english definition of a cult).

[ulyankee]

gilligan: The "look for another church" officially started with Pastor Steve, about 3 months ago and since then has been happily echoed by several VCF pastors whenever they lack the maturity to address serious disagreements with lay church leaders.

In other words, put up or shut up... or leave? So if you have legitimate concerns find another church and leave us alone to do as we want? This further ensures that the sheep who are left are the weaker brothers and sisters who can be more easily coerced, duped... and fleeced. Gilligan, this sounds an awful lot like EN in the States. May the Lord have mercy on us all.

I love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough that I can't just let this happen in silence. The Lord specifically told me to speak out. EN preaches that Jesus Christ is Lord but tends to forget in practice that this means Jesus Christ is the HEAD of the Body of Christ as well. He did not and will not delegate His Headship to ANY MAN.

Last week I had lunch with another member of my former church... someone who is just leaving and has visited my current fellowship a number of times. She has no clue about FACTNet and I didn't mention it either... but she did relate that (1) she is PHYSICALLY unable to go back because the Spirit isn't there. There's a spirit alright, but not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and (2) she is being pursued by her small group leader and others in her group to discuss her leaving, and she felt that she had to talk to me, or someone else OUTSIDE the church first. I was glad to be able to reassure her that she is NOT alone, NOT imagining things, and NOT overreacting. We didn't focus on or bad mouth our old church but talked a lot about what it means to be free in Christ, and to be in a HEALTHY body of believers under balanced, non-legalistic leadership. I am so grateful that I'm now in a safe fellowship, where the true Gospel is preached and where Jesus is exalted and praised as our Head and Lord, and that I am there and we are there to reach out to others caught in a bondage Christ NEVER INTENDED, as Gilligan relates. THIS is the fruit, the spiritual DNA of EN-style "discipleship" and accountability, which EN leaders perpetuate among the Body of Christ at large. IT'S NOT JUST A LOCAL CHURCH ISSUE, and IT'S NOT JUST ISOLATED TO INDIVIDUAL CHURCHES/PASTORS.

The Lord is SO loving and merciful. Even with EN top leaders. ESPECIALLY with EN top leaders. I hope and pray that they know how merciful He has been and fall at His feet. I know He has shown me such grace and mercy, for I know how weak and sinful I am, and I pray for EN leadership daily as well.

[ginger1]

I am just wondering how would Steve Murrell feel and the rest of the EN leadership feel if those who would decide to leave are the people who ARE THE BIGGEST TITHERS .

Show the evidences to the Biggest tithers of the ministry, then ask them to pray if they want to leave the church.

I do recall, Rice Brookes pursued the Lousiana churches , he won't just let them leave. I do wonder if Steve Murrell will do the same ?

[dazzla]

I just woke up in the midle of the night and the first thing that came ot mind, as if it woke me up, was Justyns comments :
--- "1. Go look for another church and leave everything in the hands of God. After all, you are not the Holy Spirit who does the conviction."

I logged on straight away to share the unsettled feeling I had to find it perfectly articulated by Ulyankee.

Justyn .... Are you serious about this poiint ?
So if abuse of Leadrership of any sort is happening then your advise to people is to just leave ? I cannot think of anything more unbiblical and contrary to much of what Jesus represents.

Your arrival to this site is a blessing as so many EN sheep reading this will perhaps for the first time have uncomfortable instincts clarified.
As a current EN "Leader" you have highlighted the flaws in Every Nation Inc. far more effectively than 1000 posts from former EN'ers

I pray that this is the start of your own journey towards a true relationship with Christ unbridled by Man.

[jesusisawesome]

Beautifully said, Dazzla.

[miltietoast]

dazzled!

[jesusisawesome]

A question for Justyn (or anyone else currently in EN), when I was a part of this ministry, it was a commonly taught practice to pray against those that left the church. Anyone that left the church was considered in rebellion (I myself was threatened that if I left this church I would never fulfill God's will for my life). After all, we were on the "cutting edge" and had the cornerstone on truth . . . or so it was taught and believed. Other churches were considered as less enlightened. Is this still practiced by leadership? Are people still handed over to Satan because they left, or prayers given up to God that He would do whatever it would take, bring whatever judgment has to come, etc., to bring them their senses and bring them back? Or does the leadership pray for the good of these people that leave?

Ulyankee shared a great study a while back, done through biblegateway I think . . . a word search on praying for and praying against. How many times does it say in the bible to pray against? Zip.

[dazzla]

Jesusisawesome...

Lets see what Justyn's answer is although I suspect it won't be addressed like other pragmatic questions posed to him.

From my own experience when I left EN in January this year I didn't get rebukes or earnest attempts to return me to the fold. I was treated with respect and told that they understood my reasons and I am still friends with those i was close to, nothing has changed as far as I know. I wouldn't neccessarily take mine as a definitive example though.

[mcmstaff78]

JIA: How many times does it say in the bible to pray against? Zip.

Me: Of course, these type of false shepherds (ravenous wolves) use the imprecatory prayers of the Psalms as precendents for their hard heartedness and evil actions. What they fail to realize is that these scriptures have been consistently and historically interpreted, as they apply to Christians, as being against spiritual enemies, the principalities and powers that the Apostle Paul speaks of.

This simply illustrates the great danger of making up your own "denomination" as you go. The Christian faith is not reinvented every generation, but like teenagers who think *they* have just invented sex, these folks, ignorant of Church history and Church teaching, try to reinvent the faith "which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3) Their "faith" is not Apostolic, it is heretical and groups like this consistently fall into historic heresies. I read where someone said once "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is love for enemies and prayer for the whole world." Our Lord Himself tells us "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44) Any people who are cursing their enemies rather than blessing them have not the Spirit of Christ.

[mdillon]

hey, jon, i'm starting a new business called "Denominations R Us", need you for a partner.

seriously, loved your post, strong like stout

dillyeaux

[jesusisawesome]

Dazzla, I'm thankful that you didn't have to go through what so many others have gone through. During my time with this ministry and in my locations, they did not make it easy for people to leave. Those that did leave were looked down upon as less spiritual and not able to cut the grade.

78, wonderful clarification: "What they fail to realize is that these scriptures have been consistently and historically interpreted, as they apply to Christians, as being against SPIRITUAL ENEMIES, THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS

78, I love your posts and the way that you divide the scriptures.

[mcmstaff78]

MD: hey, jon, i'm starting a new business called "Denominations R Us", need you for a partner.

Me: Didn't we actually send off to get ministerial credentials from them when we were in MCM? ;-D

[mcmstaff78]

JIA: 78, I love your posts and the way that you divide the scriptures.

Me: Glory to God! I'm pretty much a nothing, but I try to listen more closely these days after a lifetime of making it up as I went along.

[jesusisawesome]

78, I was thinking the other day about how you add so much to this board. You have a real teaching gifting I think. I for one am so glad that you have joined in.

[mdillon]

JIA-78, I was thinking the other day about how you add so much to this board. You have a real teaching gifting I think. I for one am so glad that you have joined in.

I second that JIA. In fact I'll evern third it with a double

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

JIA-78, I was thinking the other day about how you add so much to this board. You have a real teaching gifting I think. I for one am so glad that you have joined in.

I second that JIA. In fact I'll evern third it with a double

dillyeaux

[mcmstaff78]

JIA: 78, I was thinking the other day about how you add so much to this board. You have a real teaching gifting I think. I for one am so glad that you have joined in.

Me: May God get the glory. You guys are kind, but it's not really me. And I don't meant to imply that God is moving through me in some spiritual way. After 25 years or so I realized that all those folks that have come before us, especially the Apostles and the ancient Church, actually knew something about the Faith. So I started trying to listen to them and, just maybe, by the Grace of God, put a little of it into practice.

God knows I've got a long way to go. But I suspect I'll be saying that in eternity as well. We can never plumb the depths of the Majesty, Holiness and Perfection of our great God and Creator!!