SOUTH AFRICA EN

[youngnmighty]

Hi, sorry to post this on here. I don't know where else to. I'm interested in hearing from other South African former EN members.
Let me say upfront my experience of the SA branch of these churches was one i trully regret.

I think there are real problems with the way SA churches simply bow down to american ministries. Nobody asks questions, everyone is just dazzled by their American 'salesmanship'. Its galling, because EN doesn't breathe life, it just transfers stupid systems of control into a country which is trying to move away from an authoritarian christian past which supported apartheid.

and after reading about their greed and financial carelessness, im angry that my hard earn rands went from here into their already fat american pockets. and i thought i was giving it for the work of god world wide.


I would like to here from other people from RSA.

Ive been reading posts from philiprosenthal and others for a few months.

If there is a better place to put this post, i hope the moderators can tell me before they move it.

[robert_unknown]

Hi young!
nice to hear from someone from ZA. i am European, but ZA has a big place in my heart, because i had the privilege to be there for some months.

you brought it to a good point with what you said, and its good that people like you wittness here about what had happened.

where are you from? i heared that Pst.Glenn is doing a good work (started a new Non-EN-Church in Capretown) and Pst.Bruce Weyers is pastor in a baptist church in JoBurg.

[philiprosenthal]

I must say the Overseas Everynation guys did a lot of good in helping get rid of Paul Daniel. We must thank them for that and be grateful. Nevertheless, after doing so, there was a big spiritual mess he left behind that needed to be cleaned up. They didn't clean it up. They just whitewashed the unresolved scandals and hypocrisy and concentrated on trying to turn His People into an EveryNation franchise. In doing so they did much more harm than good, because most of the changes were bad. They just messed up those parts of His People that were still reasonably healthy - like Bible School, Home Groups, Worship, Worldview discussions etc. Real spiritual problems were ignored as if this was just an American corporation trying to turn a chain of restaurants into their new franchise styles.

Moreover they basically just perpetuated and intensified the hyper-autocratic form of government that allowed Paul Daniel to get away with his hypocrisy.

Moreover, their form of church governance was basically by force and manipulation without consent. There are South African His People leaders who are as much if not more of a problem than the Overseas EveryNation leaders. The South African His People needs intervention either from outside or from below to sort out leadership sin. But it doesn't need a bunch of abusive bullies trying to set up a new religious business franchise. I would welcome intervention from credible mature Bible believing God fearing foreign leadership - from anywhere in the world and any denomination.

[philiprosenthal]

Other threads relating to EveryNation South Africa:

His People Cape Town (The mother church)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21846.html?1150899829

His People Johannesburg
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21847.html?1152276873

His People History
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21933.html?1151595803

Paul Daniel (Founder of His People)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8211.html?1150275404

Luther Mancao (Previous EveryNation representative in CapeTown)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/19832.html?1152975390

Michael Swain (ex-adminstrator of Cape Town church)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21845.html?1150525412

Bill Bennot (ex-pastor of Johannesburg church)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21844.html?1152276428

Jim Laffoon (gave false prophecy to seduce His People to join EveryNation)
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/16355.html?1152742996

Open letter to Rice Broocks on reform
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1145 954959

Proposed accountability board for His People Cape Town
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1145 953642

[speakword2004]

Philip we are yet to learn the whole truth around the PD story. It was a job done by EN, but my question is just how long was it in the making?

[philiprosenthal]

Speak

The whole truth hasn't been told yet. I have encouraged the SA leadership to do so and repent, but they just made legal threats against me.

Youngnmighty

You make a good point about South Africa being sick of authoritarian control. One glow of light in the darkness has been activism against hyper-authoritarianism by black and coloured members in the Cape Town church. Basically, I think their feelings were that they had had enough of racial elitist authoritarian bullying under the old SA regime and didn't want any more religious elitist authoritarian bullying. Their activism and protest against such authoritarianism led to two pastors being removed after revolts from their own congregations. In another case their was reconciliation with the pastor.

I think religious elitism is just as bad, if not worse than racial elitism. Both have no rational justification. Both hurt people just as badly. Both are based on arrogance. Nevertheless, as His People backslid, religious elitism became elevated to the status of virtue. I feel this is one of the sins that the His People leadership needs to repent of.

[bill_mack]

Philip: The whole truth hasn't been told yet. I have encouraged the SA leadership to do so and repent, but they just made legal threats against me.

These people do not appear as though they would ever repent. Why wait? What would Jesus have done?

[robert_unknown]

bill, give phil the time, that he needs.
i have talked with him some weeks ago, and he mentioned, that he is not ready for the pressure that possibly comes against him, when he posts everything here. there where certain threats made against him.

i hope its ok, phil, that i am saying this here now.

i want to encourage you guys to pray for phil.

[speakword2004]

Youngnmighty,
Ypu do seem to have some interesting insights

[dust]

Robert,

I'm really growing to love the humanity in you and the CHRIST in you! I remember being a bit put off by you at first with the middle aged crisis thing. But, you're one heck of a Godly Man!

[robert_unknown]

thx dust. what do you mean with this: " I remember being a bit put off by you at first with the middle aged crisis thing"?

edit: LOL - i remember - sry... i am tired ;) brain is sleeping already ;)

(Message edited by robert_unknown on July 16, 2006)

[dust]

Robert,
I've lost it myself. Where are you? what country? what time is it for you? And are you from Austria...I can't keep up with it all.

[robert_unknown]

yep - and yep. i was biking today, so now i am tired. its 22.00 here.

[dust]

Is that like 10:00 P.M. we americans are so self centered with our language and time you knowhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
BIKING...too bad you're not here. Forword likes to bike.
Perhaps we will meet one day.

[robert_unknown]

yes - i hope so. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
would be nice http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[speakword2004]

Youngnmighty

You can contact me at ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk

[youngnmighty]

When i was at HP i used to feel like to say what I felt would be like 'over criticising'.
That's called moaning. the church always discouraged moaning.
So even in participating in this board I fee like I'm moaning. But i know im not moaning, I'm using this platform to highlight some of the problems that for so many years I had to bottle up and pretend I didnt see. (I have to write this disclaimer for myself!)

I used to be at the Grahamstown church. This is a small sweet church in many ways. I feel like they just get drawn into MSI/EN stuff blind.
It changes the feel and character of a church.

And Phil....guess what... I couldn't cope with the 'elitism' as well.

Its funny, the black people in the church pointed stuff like that out all the time but no one seemed to get it.

What is this spirit creeping into our churches?

I think the American-style is alien to RSA. Remember that the black churches were a hub of political resistance and freedom in South Africa back then. Black americans also found a certain freedom in church.

Funny, the MSI thing just kills that free spirit for so many people.

[philiprosenthal]

I think the reason why elitism is hard to deal with is that many leaders equate strong leadership with elitism. His People leaders have so little contact with other churches that they think that everyone behaves the way they do. They think they are better (more elite) than other churches so don't work much with them.

They think it's normal. So then if you complain, they think - 'Why should I listen to this guy - he is not as important as me' or 'He is below me and rebellious - I must put him in line'. Thus elitism defends itself. Some leaders also think - I'm not as elitist as that other guy so I must be okay. No - almost all these guys are way too elitist. It's a circular argument system - a delusion which reinforces itself.

It was only after I had left and been in another church for 3 months (with non-elitist humble pastors) that it finally dawned on me how extreme, ridiculous and ungodly all this elitism was. I hope they realise and repent before judgment day.

[robert_unknown]

The problem is a selfmade problem.

Charismatic churches emphasised many years too much on the Gifts of the Spirit instead of developing a healthy pattern for Church Gouvernance.

Misinterpreted scriptures and a too big emphasis on the prophetic genereated and feeded elitism and hyper-authoritarianism (did i spell this wright?).

because of this vacuum the pastor starts to behave like a king and supports this behaviour through OT scriptures.

[robert_unknown]

"I think the American-style is alien to RSA."

the american style is alien to scripture!
therefore it causes so many hurts and problems!

[philiprosenthal]

Yes. I must apologise to the current generation of EveryNation members. I was part of the founding of His People. We built a bad system of church governance. It's like a badly built house. Eventually it will crack, leak and fall down. It must be repaired and put right. When His People was founded, we were young and ignorant of the issues relating to church governance. We concentrated on growth and outside enemies and not on how we were building. Other churches copied the system from His People Cape Town. I warn you - it is badly built. Fine in summer weather while times are good. But when there are problems - you can't deal with them properly - and when the roof falls in then everyone gets hurt. My warning to all the other His People churches - reform your church governance before the walls crack and roof falls in. Put in checks and balances. Make your pastor accountable to a board of elders of ordinary congregation members (that he doesn't choose). Don't let anyone accumulate too much power. Demand periodic congregational accountability meetings where questions can be asked and answered. Demand confession, repentance and if necessary discipline for serious leadership sin.

This personality centred system of church governance is an experiement that has failed. No more of it.

[philiprosenthal]

ADVERT TO HELP NEW PEOPLE FIND INFO – PLEASE DON’T DISCUSS ON THIS THREAD
Please visit and tell your friends about web sites on EveryNation:
Discussion Forums: FactNet Shortcut www.EveryNationInfo.com (http://www.EveryNationInfo.com) ; Reformation Station Shortcut: www.EveryNationReform.com (http://www.EveryNationReform.com) ; http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=687&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start =0&sid=1017e1f8de6b8c5ef4541634cae79aa9 Historical timeline: http://www.geocities.com/ulyankee/;
Key blogs on EveryNation http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com ; http://www.nomoreshepherding.blogspot.com/; http://blogspace.mweb.co.za/site/alias__bodyhits/19927/default.aspx; http://the-charismatic-odysee.blogspot.com/; Cult experts comment: http://www.christiandefense.org/Articles.For.htm#MSI; http://www.rickross.com/groups/maranatha.html;
Encylopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries; http://www.answers.com/topic/every-nation
Please cut and paste these links into your emails, web sites and blogs.
ADVERT TO HELP NEW PEOPLE FIND INFO – PLEASE DON’T DISCUSS ON THIS THREAD

[40days40years]

ADVERT TO HELP NEW PEOPLE FIND INFO – PLEASE DON’T DISCUSS ON THIS THREAD

Don't discuss what on this thread?

[robert_unknown]

"Philip we are yet to learn the whole truth around the PD story. It was a job done by EN, but my question is just how long was it in the making?"

I have got a very reliable information, that the EN core leadership preasured PaulDaniel for many years to become part of MSI/EN. one of their main assaults was on his security. they emphasised that he cannot carry the weight of the grwoing HP ministry himself, and that he needs "brothers around him".

[philiprosenthal]

Okay well now you have the story.

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1156 407556

and at
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23745.html?1156615727

Paul Daniels immorality problems started long before he even knew about the existence of EveryNation. Yes I know they pressured him to join them. In fact, there has been speculation that His People joining EveryNation was basically part of a manipulation by Paul Daniel to avoid getting disciplined by the IFCC denomination for adultery. I don't know whether it is true. It needs to be part of a proper investigation.

[40days40years]

well robert this is a delayed reaction but you said: <font color="119911">"Philip we are yet to learn the whole truth around the PD story. It was a job done by EN, but my question is just how long was it in the making?" I have got a very reliable information, that the EN core leadership preasured PaulDaniel for many years to become part of MSI/EN. one of their main assaults was on his security. they emphasised that he cannot carry the weight of the grwoing HP ministry himself, and that he needs "brothers around him".</font>

Who are you talking about robert? Bill Bennot, Rice......????

The saga continues...

[philiprosenthal]

I don't think there is anything necessarily sinister with the above. His People's accountability structure and relationships was a disaster. EveryNation's post-Palm Springs structure is a bit better. I would rather someone have accountability to a dysfunctional group than none at all. Otherwise one just spawns little personality cults accountable to no-one - and each goes off the rails one by one. Nevertheless, there were other alternatives other than joining EveryNation such as the internal accountability board for His People that I proposed.
http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&amp;action=display&amp;thread=1145 953642


I think Robert is referring to Rice Broocks, Jim Lafoon etc.

[robert_unknown]

"Who are you talking about robert? Bill Bennot, Rice......???? "

yes i think about RB, JL... PD knew them long before we joined MSI.