Practical Ways To Forgive Others

[justyn_m]

Practical Ways To Forgive Others


1. Acknowledge the Deceptive Feeling of Control.

Refusing to forgive provides a feeling of power, but this feeling is deceptive as it is really a cover for your own sense of hurt and vulnerability.

a. Refuse to be a victim
b. Cancel the debt
c. Get on with your life
d. Allow God to be the justice maker

Revenge feels good for a time; but ultimately, it does not work. The pain you give can never cancel the pain you have received. Get out of the way and let God take care of this.

2. Forgiveness is both an event and a process.

a. Letting an offender off your hooks is an event.
b. Finding relief from your own pain is a process.
c. It takes time. You must keep opening your hurt heart to God, and you will experience healing over time.

One day you will wake up and find yourself thinking differently about the one who hurt you. You may never like or trust this person, but the intensity of your hurt will diminish.

One day you will find yourself praying for your offender. Soon you will realize you are free. Forgiveness is the road to freedom. But it makes little sense unless seen in the context of Christ’s forgiveness toward you.

"And be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ (Eph. 4:32 HCSB)."

Are you forgiven? Then you can forgive. The truly forgiven ones can become truly forgiving ones. God began by forgiving us. He invites us to forgive others. Your willingness to participate in the process of forgiveness is a measure of just how much you appreciate being forgiven by God.

I hope our FactNet friends will learn from this practical ways of forgiving other people that have offended them so they could move on with their lives. God bless!

[justyn_m]

So what have we learned from the Bible about how we should use our words?

(1) Every word — whether we think about it or not—is noticed by God and has conse}quences.
(2) Words are extremely powerful; they are able to give life and healing, and they areable to hurt and destroy.
(3) Everyone needs God’s help to say good words—so why don’t we ask Him for it?
(4) Words can either calm an angry situation—or make it angrier. Which will youchoose?
(5) Lying is always wrong, and it always hurts someone.
(6) When we talk is sometimes just as important as what we say.
(7) Gossip hurts everyone.
(8) We have the power to help people with our words if we choose to. If we do not help, we hurt.

I hope we learn from this practical ways. Let's use what we have to encourage and not hurt.

“But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matt. 12:36-37, NIV)

(Message edited by justyn_m on September 20, 2006)

[jbkrems]

This is an excellent series of posts.

[ginger1]

First part of the prophesy given to me 16 years ago.

The Spirit of the Lord is saying I am giving you hind feet in hinds places, That you may understand according to Habakkuk 3:19, The Lord , He is your personal bravery. He is your invincible army , The Lord He is your strength, He make you to have hinds feet in hinds places, that you may walk and make spiritual progress. And not stand still in terror but walk in spiritual progress in your high places of trouble , fear or responsibility. The Lord said I will be your personal bravery , in some ways YOU GOT TO SPEAK UPTO THOSE THAT YOU KNOW, even in the face of TRADITION , where you would fear disrespecting someone , The Lord said you better HONOR ME , HIGHER , than even to those in you own house, for it is written those who love their father , mother ,sister, brother , lands , cattle , farms anything , The Lord saith More than me ARE NOT WORTHY OF ME , but those who DO REVER ME and Call Upon My name and even call out to the HIGHER THINGS in RESPECT and Honor, The Lord said I will RESTORE TO YOU ONE HUNDRED FOLD . Not only in the Life to come , But also in this life , If you forsake ANYTHING , Father , Mother, Lands, Anything …The Lord said I will give you one hundred fold in return. The Lord said Behold, I am about to start the one hundred fold process to the both of you. And You will be Experiencing Blessing now, where you will be afraid that you will be cursed , by Parents, by FRIENDS, By PEOPLE, whoever.

[ginger1]

Justyn, question to you is, are you honoring God ? or are you honoring men ?

See , in less than 6 months I spoke up against MSI, the Lord gave us the hundred fold blessings and its NOT from because we tithe/ Its because I spoke up.

[ginger1]

Jbkrem, Justyn M is one of the VCF pastor, who learned to kissed up to get his position in VCF. He is newly born again christian , only 3 years old.

I believe that he posted in the past is that he does not believe Judas is a thief because none of the disciples said so. He believes in giving honor to a pastor who is a well known to have committed fraud not once by couple of times with witnesses and evidences. By the way the pastor has not repented .

So like maranatha, The term rebellion and disobedience to the leaders is politically unacceptable, VCF and EN has to change their term that is politically acceptable to Bitterness and Unforgiveness. Because its new, the christian worldview has not caught it yet. Hence this post.

Like Maranatha before, they would quote a lot of scriptures and points like this about rebellion and disobedience to the leaders. In other words, VCF and EN has to reinvent themselves again. Very much like Satan himself, who continues to masquarade changing his face but the spirit is still the same. They tried changing names from maranatha to Victory to Morning Star to Every nation. But the spirit still stays the same. The term has change, but the spirit behind it is very much the same. From the same demons of the Shepherding Movement.

So with this post, Its a Ho-Hum to me.

[robert_unknown]

I think Justyns post is very important on this forum.

But i want to add one thing to it.
forgiveness does by no means mean to put the head into the sand and ignore things that are wrong.
I am not talking about little things, that are not worthy to be mentioned.
But a movement of churches who claims that they have a mandate from God MUST walk in Gods boundaries. If the leaders walk in sin they set a very bad example and if this is NOT challenged and if it is not delt with it in a way, that exposes it, and that brings the person to real repentance, corruption will enter the church/ movement and destroy it.

Christ had to forgive daily, but he still challenged the religous elite of his time for their unrightessness.

Luther had to forgive thousand times, but still gave birth to the reformation

There are many other examples in church history who walked in forgiveness but did not comromise with truth.

what the NOLR concept of leadership does is destructive for the whole church:
if you see sin happening in your leadership, just forgive and pray. because leaders are anointed and you dont dare touch them.

If we would apply this to our civil laws, we would enter many problems in society.

actually this is not a biblical answer on sin. Its humanism, which enters the debate about sin/ crime/ failure from the assumption, that every human beeing is good on the inside, and therefore shall not be punished.

so forgiveness is important! yes!
thank you justyn for reminding us on this!

but at the same time real repentance and confession has to take place instead of cover-up! thats the üart the responsable persons like the leaders and board members of EN have to play!

in this respect i am very thankfull to people who dare to post things here on the forum! leadership doesnt give informations further to the church. they are unsecure, and fear that the people leave the church once they know whats going on in some peoples life.

christians can forgive much - but if they loose trust in their leaders, because they realise that they dont pass important informations further, things get complicated.

i want to encourage ALL of you EN-pastors and leaders:

consider developing more transparency to the churches and members! dont cover up people who fall in sin (like adultery, greed, abuse of others...)! it will fall back on your credibility.

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

What is VCF??? Vineyard Christian Fellowship, or something else???

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and let him speak for himself.

[philiprosenthal]

I think one must distinguish between different types of forgiveness. Someone made the differentiation between 'transactional forgiveness' and 'emotional/spiritual forgiveness'. If for example, someone steals $10 000 from you, then you may forgive him for stealing the money in the sense that you don't remain bitter about the betrayal - but you want him to pay back the money and you want him to be tried and go to jail for the theft. Transactional forgiveness is if you drop the claim to have the money returned to you. However even if you do make such a write off, that doesn't mean you are oblidged to ever trust such a person to look after or manage your money again.

Emotional/spiriutal forgiveness is essential for your own spiritual health.

Now I think on this board and in EveryNation generally, a lot of people are muddling up the different types of forgiveness. We can forgive a deceitful, dishonest or abusive leader for his behaviour - but that does not mean that in a church politics sense we should still support his continued leadership. We can still want him out without being in any way inforgiving - because we want other people spared the same type of experience. We simply don't think the guy is worthy to be in leadership in terms of 1 Timothy and Titus criteria for eldership. I think too many of these guys are getting away with recurrent bad behaviour with the following scenario. A leader misbehaves. Then when challenged, his buddy pastors accuse the complainant of unforgiveness - even sometimes when the sinful pastor has not repented of his behaviour. So then the pastor is protect from accountability for his sins. Enough of this manipulation and cover-up of sin.

[jbkrems]

Phillip:

Unfortunately, I must disagree. Unless you can show me otherwise in the Scriptures, the Bible does not differentiate between different kinds of forgiveness. Not that I disagree with the general gist of what you are saying, esp. in your 2nd paragraph concerning leadership, BUT...

I would not make the distinction between different kinds of forgiveness.

[robert_unknown]

"leadership doesnt give informations further to the church. they are unsecure, and fear that the people leave the church once they know whats going on in some peoples life. "

i need to correct this!
i was in a hurry, but wanted to say this:
"some leaders are unsecure and fear loosing people, if they communicate anything to the church."

phil - thank you for this explanation.

[philiprosenthal]

Forgiveness is a term in the financial world. If you owe the bank money and they forgive you, then you no longer owe them money. That is not a spiritual/emotional issue. It is a financial issue.

The Bible also uses the term and applies it to spiritual life. It is the same term with a similar, but not identical meaning.

[pilgrim]

philiprosenthal,

You accurately wrote, If for example, someone steals $10,000.00 from you, then you may forgive him for stealing the money in the sense that you don't remain bitter about the betrayal - but you want him to pay back the money and you want him to be tried and go to jail for the theft.

I would like to add that to forgive i.e not to remain bitter about the betrayal does not mean that you trust the person that you have forgiven. The thief would need to fully repent and make restitution before he can start to regain my trust.Trust has to be rebuilt again and this takes time. I might might be afraid of or never have the chance to spend enough time with the ex thief to make sure that I can now trust him. In your example I would have to be sure that the person who stole from me had changed and is no likely to still from me again.
It would also be important to expose what the thief did and how he did it to help others to protect themselves from that particular thief and from other thieves that might use similar methods.

[ginger1]

JBkrem, - VCF is Victory Christian Fellowship.

I cannot accept what Justyn M posted simply because it was done out of HYPOCRISY. He talks about forgivness and yet his own VCF leadership DOES NOT PRACTICE IT. They talk about bitterness and yet they practice the opposite.

Just think, in the past and even currently VCF pastors have ARE HUNTING DOWN people who spoke against them in current situation. ANYBODY who spoke against VCF Pastors, would be SLANDERED, They even have been interviewing , accusing people of MISLEADING LIES. Some are being baited so people would be tempted to come forward. They are spreading fear.

Justyn M talks about forgiveness and yet he and VCF pastors are NOT able to forgive the people who SPOKE UP. The VCF pastors have started to HARBOR Bitterness against people who spoke up that they are NOT GOING TO BE PROMOTED in VCF. No matter how much fruit they produce. Instead they PROMOTE PASTORS who Kissed up to them, who produced NO FRUITS. EVEN promote those who are engaged in CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES like Bernard Marquez .

Justyn M should check his own heart , even the heart of VCF pastors , accusing people of unforgiveness and bitterness while they themselves have WIDELY PRACTICE IT.

It does not matter how much good intention it is. I doubt that the spirit behind it is of God. Like the bible said, Satan can come and masquerade as an angel of Light.

[dust]

Ginger,
Truth is simply truth. And, maybe God is telling us all something. I'm going to examine my own areas of forgiveness today. We ALL could benefit to check our own heart!

A tactic of EN: If they don't like what you say (even if it's true, instead of examining it, they tear down the person, discredit them). The doctrine on forgiveness can't be discarded because you don't like the character of who said it. It is the ESSENCE of CHRIST and what He did for us. It's not ho hum. It is what we COUNT ON....It's what keeps our heart soft.

There have been quite a few careless words on this board. I may even be guilty of such, and I publicly repent and ask forgiveness for my own careless words.

One thing I know for sure.....I came here to get healing. Now, when we tear down what is words from God, I'm getting defiled. This board is no longer for healing. It's hurting.

It's heartbreaking to watch this. I love what Christ taught. I love the sermon on the mount. I can't really live up to it, but I believe it's what Christ has made possible, that we can have a soft heart, a forgiving spirit because He works through us.

[robert_unknown]

" I cannot accept what Justyn M posted simply because it was done out of HYPOCRISY. He talks about forgivness and yet his own VCF leadership DOES NOT PRACTICE IT. They talk about bitterness and yet they practice the opposite. "

ginger, while I understand fully, what you mean with your post, its not good to accuse Justin beeing a hypocrite unless you know him personally and know that he is a hypocrite. do you know that he behaves the way you wrote it?

However, there are always two parties in a controversy, and of course, like you said, certain values and boundaries have to be valid for both sides.

I recently discovered that some of the leaders in EN (specially the ones I know from HP) are people who one can talk with, and they would not slander you.

there are different people handling such situations differently. this might be partially be a character/ personality issue and/ or a issue of learned doctrines and beahviour (like the false and overemphasised submission-doctrine). this has to be challenged. and in my opinion things like abuse, fraud, greed, adultery, etc have to be exposed at some stage. a church is NOT setting a good example if their leaders come away with everything. thats, like phil said, the other side.

generally spoken, juystins post is accurate and true! and I apreciate it, that he posts this here.


(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 20, 2006)

[philiprosenthal]

Some of the issues, which I think is helpful for people to come to terms with the abusive behaviour of EveryNation leaders without taking it too personally - which can often results in unforgiveness are:

* To understand that the abusive ministers are part of a sociological cult. If one of your friends gets caught up in a cult or on drugs or drunk, you feel sorry for him - not angry with him. He is not in his right mind. You want to help him. That changes the attitude. When he gets out of the cultic mindset maybe you can be friends again.
* A spiritual way of looking at a sociological cult is to understand the concept of bewitchment (Galations 3). The enemy is the bewitchment - not the people.
* To understand that abuse is how such ministers treat just about everyone - including eachother - so don't take it personally. They are not victimising you because you are in their sights. They are just abusive people and you happened to cross paths with them. If anyone hasn't been abused yet - they just need to hang around these guys and wait. Their time will come.

I was once in a meeting where a whole bunch of pastors were hurling false accusations at me. So I looked around at them and thought to myself how weird their behaviour was and how I had an unusual opportunity, rather like a psychiatrist to study an organisation gone crazy - from the inside. I hope that others have gained benefit from my research. For example this article on how abusive ministries defend themselves:

http://everynation.proboards102.com/index.cgi?board=abusive&action=display&thread=1144 675059


Anyway I think it helps a lot to de-personalise the issue and look at it in a more detached sociological manner.

[ginger1]

Robert, We have emailed each other in the past. I find him hypocritical. I had a chance to see who he really is. I find him very insecure, as a VCF pastor, it would be easy for him to walk down the hall and ask Steve Murrell, time and time again he refused because he is afraid of Steve Murrell. He is so afraid to offend Steve Murrell. SO I find him a Man Pleaser.

He also know very well there are people in VCF are being persecuted for speaking up. People that are supposed to be promoted are Not getting any promotion. Just think , several people who has been members for 20-25 years were not promoted to leadership nor pastors because they spoke up. Yet he only 3 years, learned to kissed up got promotion.
I had to investigate, calling up people if anybody knows him. And yes, they definitely know who he is. And I found out also he is very aware of the corruption in VCF.

He would not dare to speak against VCF, he knew his job is at stake. He knew about the corruption within his own ministry. He I find , Coward. So as I labeled him a hypocrite is definitely suitable for him.

People like Justyn M, who are aware of the Corruption within their own ministry, and yet Refused to speak up AND They have the nerve to defend VCF and EN. Then attacking people here as bitter and unforgiveness.
SO he is a Hypocrite , a Coward and a Man pleaser. Something to him is Honorable to God.

[ginger1]

Question is what the difference between Justyn M and Phil Bonasso in his younger days ?

Phil Bonasso knew very well about the Abuse and Control. He also knew and aware of people getting spiritually damage. Yet, Phil Bonasso PRACTICE this for his own self-promotion. Justyn M is doing exactly the same thing. He knew the corruption, he knew people are getting by-pass from promotion, he knew also those people who speak up will be FIRED, slandered and persecuted or not even getting a Raise which they direly need. He knew also those people who spoke up in VCF are right also. But he does not care, he is here for his own self-promotion.he has his own hidden agenda. He comes here to post to show to the VCF pastors how faithful he is that he can get another STEP UP in VCF. Justyn M knew about practicing Cover-UP game. Which we are already aware that happened in HP.

As I posted before, its the spirit behind it that I do not trust.

[ginger1]

Dust, if you are able to get anything fom Justyn M , good for you. Go ahead examine your heart.

I find it more healing to hear forgiveness from people who were VICTIMIZED rather from Abusers.

[jbkrems]

Phillip: OK. But then the "transactional forgiveness" kind that is of the financial world... its not used in the Bible. The Bible speaks of only ONE kind of forgiveness, and that is forgiveness, pure and simple. But you're right in that you cannot bring a worldly concept in and impose it on the Scriptures.

Ginger: Thanks for the clarification. I take it that VCF is Steve Murrell's former church???

I am sorry that you cannot accept what JustynM wrote for whatever your reasons. I accept it, and I accept him as my Christian brother in the Lord.

I do not believe what he wrote is hypocritical, just because his leadership does not practice it. So long as JustynM practices forgiveness, there is no hypocrisy at all IMHO.

Also, I think it is very wrong of you to discuss JustynM in the light that you are doing so, by revealing matters of his heart that really should not be for public disclosure. What you are doing is dragging him and his reputation through the mud, and that is inappropriate.

And what Robert said regarding this issue is also correct.

And Ginger, its really wrong for you to speak of your Christian brother Justyn like this. Would you want someone to do this to you? Is Justyn NOT a Christian? Is he not your brother in the Lord? You need to have some more respect for him, even if he has his flaws and issues, and not divulge them publicly here. Please use some discretion on this in the future.

[ginger1]

Would you want someone to do this to you? Is Justyn NOT a Christian? Is he not your brother in the Lord?

Jbkrem, they are already doing this to me. And no he is not my brother in the Lord nor a friend.

For now, I will try to cool off. PEACE.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>

Ok I am in a little fog, but I am thinking and now seeing a word a... Charles Stanley and that thread and thing s that were said about them by...., and it is coming to me , tangled facts on other thread something about jim,,, ah yes seeing clear Jesus the movie and a misquote, one of many and wondering why? Oh Oh It is a case, now I see.}

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

So, Justyn isn't a Christian??? But he's a pastor??? That does not make sense. You, as a Christian, cannot disinherit your spiritual siblings.

Copper: If you're inferring that I dragged Dr. Stanley's name and reputation through the mud, you're mistaken. I did criticize his teachings, but I respect him as a brother in the Lord, and a minister of the Gospel. At least he is getting people saved.

[ginger1]

JBkrem, if you consider the pastors in church of Christ as brother in the Lord. Then more power to you.

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

I consider anyone who claims a salvation experience that is genuine and authentic to be my brother (or sister) in the Lord.

If someone is a pastor of a denomination that I differ with (like Church of Christ, for example), they may be misinformed or disagree doctrinally with me, but they still are my brother/sister in Christ, and I must respect and value them.

Also, if they are a pastor, then they are a minister of the gospel, and I need to respect them for that, too.

[ginger1]

8He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

==========

Jesus standard for brother ,sister and mother is much higher.

I you want to respect and value them thats fine. But he is still NOT my brother in Christ.

[jbkrems]

Ginger: That's a rather legalistic approach, pulling that Scripture out of context.

There are plenty of other NT verses and passages I can point to that make EVERY Christian your brother and sister in Christ. After all, we are ALL (as believers) joint heirs with Jesus, and God's children!

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

Warren Wiersbe said that “The world’s worst prison is the prison of an unforgiving heart. If we refuse to forgive others, then we are only imprisoning ourselves and causing our own torment. Some of the most miserable people I have met in my ministry have been people who would not forgive others. They lived only to imagine ways to punish these people who had wronged them. But they were really only punishing themselves.”

Unforgiving spirit results to other sins – anger, critical spirit, bitterness, and indifference, not to mention the various illnesses associated with unforgiveness. See Ephesians 4:30-32. We reveal the true condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. The context of this paragraph is forgiveness between brothers in Christ but we know that the principles apply to other relationships.

Whom do you need to forgive today? Perhaps you need to forgive your fellow church member, your parents, your siblings, your co-workers, your spouse, and your relatives. Release yourself from the prison of unforgiving heart and from the curse of sin. How do we forgive?

a. Understand the meaning of forgiveness – to cover, to erase, and to send away the sins of the offender. Therefore when we forgive we are actually giving the persons a clean sheet of paper – we release the person from the penalty of sin.

b. Understand that forgiveness is not toleration but preservation – we forgive because we would like to recognize the person’s admission of guilt and the desire to change. We forgive because we would like to encourage the person to start a new but right way of living and relating with us thereby resulting to preservation of the relationship.

c. Understand that forgiveness is not forgetting but healing – we forgive so that healing will begin to happen. Healing is a process that requires patience on the part of the offender. When it is completed, it may leave some marks but the pains are gone.

People, lets learn and start to forgive today.


Justyn M.

[jbkrems]

AMEN, brother! Well said.

[robert_unknown]

I had some good tal and hones talks the last days with brothers here in Europe.
Some of them critizised my engagement here on factnet, and told me that i am "bitter".
well- my be i am bitter at the moment, and of course i need to deal with this.

but my question is this:
whats the bigger problem? my bitterness (which has its reasons), or obvious issues of sin and of abuse in a church?
i have wittnessed things the last years, that should not have happened in a church.

so its nice, that justyn reminds us on forgiveness.

but this does not mean that we have to shut up, and stop exposing things that are not right.

in this respect we also must understand, that if certain issues would NOT have been risen HERE on a public discussion forum, NO changes in EN regarding this issues would have happened.

its very sad, that we are nearly forced to go public.

it would be much better if there was a healthy possibilty in the church to adress these things.

if this happens, and if EN manages it to stop abuse of people, abuse of church finances, personal enrichement of leaders, authoritarian leadership, i will draw my engagement in this forum back.
there also needs to be established better checks and balances, a transparency from "above to down", accountability from the leaders to the church, a better and more pluralistic church gouvernement in local churches and in regional leadership.
there also needs to be more honesty about the past of EN and its main leaders.

as i said. this things need to be done restore EN. until this things dont happen, there will always be "bitter people" in EN.


(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 21, 2006)

(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 21, 2006)

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

Listen to Dust's statement, "One thing I know for sure.....I came here to get healing. Now, when we tear down what is words from God, I'm getting defiled. This board is no longer for healing. It's hurting.

People, lets learn from Dust when she said, "This board is no longer for healing. It's hurting."

Corrie Ten Boom told of not being able to forget a wrong that had been done to her. She had forgiven the person, but she kept rehashing the incident and so couldn’t sleep. Finally Corrie cried out to God for help in putting the problem to rest.

“His help came in the form of a kindly Lutheran pastor,” Corrie wrote, “to whom I confessed my failure after two sleepless weeks.” “Up in the church tower,” he said, nodding out the window, “is a bell which is rung by pulling on a rope. But you know what? After the sexton lets go of the rope, the bell keeps on swinging. First ding, then dong. Slower and slower until there’s a final dong and it stops. I believe the same thing is true of forgiveness. When we forgive, we take our hand off the rope. But if we’ve been tugging at our grievances for a long time, we mustn’t be surprised if the old angry thoughts keep coming for a while. They’re just the ding-dongs of the old bell slowing down.”

“And so it proved to be. There were a few more midnight reverberations, a couple of dings when the subject came up in my conversations, but the force—which was my willingness in the matter—had gone out of them. They came less and less often and at the last stopped altogether: we can trust God not only above our emotions, but also above our thoughts.”

Justyn M.

[ginger1]

Jbkrem, if you consider a person deliberately abusing authority, leaving thousands of spiritually people dead or dying as your brother in Christ, as God's will and is your brother or sister in Christ. Then as I said , more power to you.

Currently my question is , To forgive what ? VCF and EN have denied doing anything wrong. Bitter against what ? there is no offense, so we are unforgiving and bitter against what ?

[mcmstaff78]

While one should certainly forgive and not let any root of bitterness reside in one's heart, that does not preclude speaking out against continued abusive behavior. (Nor does forgiveness necessarilly remove all consequences.) In fact, to not speak out would not be loving toward those subjected to the abuse.

The argument that in forgiving an abuser one must "shut up" about the abuse, or even continue in an abusive relationship/system is patently false, but typical for those who enable or are part of such systems. One sees this type of argument in the Mormon church (and others - I cite the Mormons because it has recently been in the news) regarding women and children whose husbands/fathers have (and are) abusing them. This is a manipulative technique to turn the discussion around on the victim and make him or her feel in the wrong and submit once again to an abusive situation. As the Apostle Paul might say, "my brethren, this should not be."

MCM/MSI/EN engage in spiritual abuse and heretical theology. This should be exposed so that others do not fall into it or may be helped out of it.

(Message edited by mcmstaff78 on September 21, 2006)

[jbkrems]

Ginger: I don't know. You're a lot more educated about VCF and EN, and what was going on down there than I am. I just know that when someone has wronged us, we need to forgive.

When I left the KMI church I was at for almost 2 years here in Oklahoma City, I had to release and forgive my pastor, not that he was abusive, but there were issues and problems... he's still my brother in the Lord, but I still had to forgive him for my own spiritual health.

mcmstaff: That is exactly right. Forgiveness and qualification (esp. for ministry) are two enirely different things. One can be forgiven as a minister, but the trust MUST be restored.

I also agree that if abuse is involved, of any kind, the one who has been abused should not continue in the relationship, and there needs to be some kind of removal from it. If your pastor is abusive, then you need to find another one. I once had an abusive pastor who was overbearing in another city, and eventually I had to leave that church, because God revealed to me how spiritually unhealthy it was. This was when I was living in Northern Virginia... and NO, this was NOT an EveryNation/Maranatha/MCM/Etc. church, either.

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

Allow me to post something from the article of Rev. Charles Tillapaugh,

"I must tell you that I take some comfort that this story, this parable that Jesus shares comes as an answer to Peter's question 'Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive?' Jesus gives an answer that really points us to an unlimited amount of mercy, unlimited forgiveness within the life of the church. I'd like to think that Matthew was trying to address some of the petty little things that often times effect churches and harm the relationship between its members.

"I can remember as a child growing up the Stewart sisters who used to walk to church every Sunday rain or snow and they would sit in the same pew every week about four rows back from the front. They were a fixture at the United Ministry in Delhi where I grew up. Every Sunday 4 four back on the right. One Sunday they arrived however and an older couple, the Onashes, had either gotten mixed up as too what row they had sat down in or they were trying to make a joke or something and they actually sat in the Stewart sisters pew. The sisters walked in down the center aisles to their normal pew, saw somebody sitting in their place, and obviously didn’t think it was too funny for they turned around walked back down the aisle and never set foot in the church again. You see I want to think that this is the kind of thing Jesus is addressing when he seems to say to folks in the church get over it, 'forgive one another as you have been forgiven. <font color="119911">We're members of the same family in the church, let's try and work it out and learn how to live with one another.' We all struggle at times though with those petty things that can bring division don’t we.... Our pride gets in the way, our feelings get hurt and we get angry.</font> I want to think that Jesus here is addressing these types of situations that often arise among church families and if that's what he's talking about, then I agree we need to practice the often times awkward and uncomfortable forgiveness he suggests not just 7 times but 70 x 7."

By the way, I hope you learn something from jbkrems. God bless you all!

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

I believe many of our FactNet friends here will truly benefit from this story,

"True forgiveness means forgetting, and washing the slate clean. So, you see with our rational minds to do these things is almost impossible. And yet Christ demands it of each and every person — if we are to be worthy of this calling. And He demands that the inner person, the universe within us — the cosmos — change. It cannot be that same worldly state — like everything else. We are called to be transfigured and transformed. To alter our own ego and path, and to place our lives on the path of Jesus Christ.

"How does this come about? — by breaking the ego — not doing what I want and what I desire but what God requires that I should do in this life, if I am truly to be one of His disciples. And to not just say that I am that and I live that, but we all have to struggle, and we must walk in the path He has given us.

"And as St. John Chrysostom reminds us: 'Certainly it is sinful to fall, but it is devilish to remain fallen.'

"No matter where our errors, our trials, our tribulations may lead us, we must always pick ourselves up and continue the journey.

"Allow me, please, for a moment to share a story with you. It is a story about two monks. Two brothers who lived far out into the desert for years and years, and had not come into society and had not had any contact with people.

"It happened one day that one of the monks said to his brother, 'Brother, I will go into the city' (there were some errands to be done). And as he went along his way and entered the city, the monk came upon two people who were arguing — and he was amazed. He had never seen such an experience in his life. And he asked the people who were there what was taking place. And they said, 'It's an argument.' And he followed it with interest and curiosity. And he said to himself, 'When I return to the monastery and to my brother, I must share this example of human existence with him.' So he went back to the monastery and found his brother monk and said, 'I saw the most amazing thing today in the city. I saw an argument.'

"And the second monk said, 'What is this thing you call an argument?' And the first monk said, 'I'll explain. Do you see this brick? I'll take this brick and put it between us. And I will say it is my brick, and you will say 'no it is my brick' and we will argue whose brick it really is.'

"So the first monk took the brick and put it between them and said, 'Brother, this is my brick.'

"The second monk looked at him and said, 'If you say so, brother.'

"Now we chuckle and laugh, but look at the truth and wisdom in that story. Who amongst us in the argument would say, 'if you say so, it must be yours'. The second monk had broken his own will and own desire. He was no longer bound by the things of this world. He had gone to another level, he had grown spiritually. <font color="119911">That is what we are all called to do. To grow and to develop spiritually. So that the brick which we may pick up and place somewhere in life is not a brick which builds walls, it is the brick which builds bridges and brings people closer together and unites us and makes us the one body of Jesus Christ.</font>"

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.
</font>

[flo1151]

youngster alert

[flo1151]

justyn,

Do you believe you can have bad feelings toward a person or group and still be forgiving?

[robert_unknown]

forgiveness is good.
but going back and letting oneself abuse again is stupid.
corrie went through a conzentration camp. she had to forgive her torturers.
but she did not go back into such an environement, and she did not become his friend.

i think we must not confuse forgiveness with a sort of "stockholm syndrome" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome).

this is not what Jesus expects from us!

by the way, forgiveness is something we all have to do. We have to work through certain incidences that happened to us.

But this does not mean that EN just can go on like this and has not to change things.

An apology from abusive leaders to abused people would also help a lot to come over it...

[jbkrems]

Flo:

This is my opinion, but the answer is no. You cannot both be harboring bad feelings, and forgive simultaneously. This does not mean, however, that just because someone is forgiven, they are qualified to serve in the ministry.

Robert: That is correct, going back for abuse again isn't right.

[ginger1]

Robert, thats what I have been thinking about for the longest time,
some ex members in EN has that Stockholm syndrome.

They rationalized it as forgiveness. I met one former member, rationalizing it that way. Even though his marriage is about to end, his spiritual life is in shambles , finances in the pits, and this is how he rationalized it.

[ginger1]

And JBkrem the person I know went back to the abusers. Even though the whole family is against it. They all know that EN leaders will do it all over again.

There are people who are just "ADDICTED" to being abused. The think this is the only way to hear God is to let the leaders tell them what to do. Its comfortable. They like the way it is.

We call this a Familiar Spirit. They will go through one deliverance after another and yet they kept going back to the people who abused them. Finally they had to rationalized it as that they(EN) did not do wrong things. They let it go forgive, get hurt again then went back to the abusers.,its a cycle.

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

Yes, that's sad and unfortunate, that some people return to the abusers... you find the same in those with so-called "battered wives' syndrome." It really is demonic, and those who are addicted to being abused need real deliverance from the spirit associated with that.

Also, if they think the only way to hear God is to let leaders tell them what to do, then they are deceived as well, because Christianity is about having a personal relationship. My own pastor says that the only Person ultimately that we are responsible to is God. So, if he says something that does not bear witness to us, we are free to obey God. Of course, it goes without saying that what we do must line up with the Word of God... my pastor is speaking more towards grey areas of the faith than what is clear in the Scriptures.

If these people go through deliverance after deliverance, they are not really delivered, genuinely. You have to close the door and commit to life change. Its just like those who pray a sinner's prayer, then go back to the ungodly life they once lived, repent, and go through the cycle over and over again... these pople were never genuinely saved. They need to get it right, and commit to not returning back to Egypt, so to speak.

[pilgrim]

I believe that forgiveness is a continous process, think of the person who hurt you the most in your whole life, you might forgive that person and feel not hate but occasionally some memories might triger some painful events when you remember how you felt at the time and at the next moment feel a little bit resenful and you might need to forgive again i.e forgiveness is normally a continous process.
I have had situations in my life when I've sincerely forgiven people and do not feel resentment only to find out a week or a month later that a very painful memory makes it necessary to renew that forgiveness.

Also I know that forgiveness does not always mean that the pain of what happened goes away, for example if someone murders the person you love the most you might be able to forgive in that you don't feel hate but the pain will normally remain for a considerable amount of time and many times for a life time.

I think that it is a false teaching to say that if you feel hurt you have not fully forgiven, yet I have heard this false teaching many times.

[jbkrems]

Pilgrim:

Yes, indeed forgiveness is the first step in the healing process, when it comes to severe or traumatic emotional pain.

It is, indeed, a false teaching that if you feel hurt, you have not fully forgiven. Forgiveness and healing are different.

[pilgrim]

Hi jbkrems,

Today it looks like we fully agree on this one!

Blessings

Pilgrim

[robert_unknown]

"It really is demonic, and those who are addicted to being abused need real deliverance from the spirit associated with that. "

its not only spiritual, but also a phsychical issue.
the abuser often provides a sort of "security" for the victim - of course a false security...

its the same thing that drove the israelites against Gods will to have a king.

a king mostly abuses his people, but still provides some "security".

the abuser takes the thinking and decision making part in the abusive relationship.

a victim also must learn that the responsability for his live is FULLY in his own hands.

Spiritual abuse is the worst thing at all, because, based on false doctrine, it says that the leader is responsable for the followers live/ good!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 27, 2006)

[justyn_m]

Dear Friend,

One of the FactNet people mentioned, "forgiveness is good. But going back and letting oneself abuse again is stupid. Corrie went through a conzentration camp. she had to forgive her torturers. But she did not go back into such an environement, and she did not become his friend."

Is the above statement true? Corrie Ten Boom wrote a story about her experience of forgiveness,

<font color="0000ff">"It was at a church service in Munich that I saw him, a former S.S. man who had stood guard at the shower room door in the processing center at Ravensbruck. He was the first of our actual jailers that I had seen since that time. And suddenly it was all there – the roomful of mocking men, the heaps of clothing, Betsie's pain-blanched face.

"He came up to me as the church was emptying, beaming and bowing. “How grateful I am for your message, Fraulein.” He said. “To think that, as you say, He has washed my sins away!” His hand was thrust out to shake mine. And I, who had preached so often to the people in Bloemendaal the need to forgive, kept my hand at my side.

"Even as the angry, vengeful thoughts boiled through me, I saw the sin of them. Jesus Christ had died for this man; was I going to ask for more? Lord Jesus, I prayed, forgive me and help me to forgive him. I tried to smile, I struggles to raise my hand. I could not. I felt nothing, not the slightest spark of warmth or charity. And so again I breathed a silent prayer. Jesus, I prayed, I cannot forgive him. Give me Your forgiveness.

"As I took his hand the most incredible thing happened. From my shoulder along my arm and through my hand a current seemed to pass from me to him, while into my heart sprang a love for this stranger that almost overwhelmed me. And so I discovered that it is not on our forgiveness any more than on our goodness that the world's healing hinges, but on His. When He tells us to love our enemies, He gives, along with the command, the love itself."</font>

God bless you!

[robert_unknown]

Justyn i KNOW Ten Booms books since many years.

What she did was tremendous. But nevertheless she did NOT have to go BACK into an abusive relationship/ environement. And she did not enter into a personal relationship with her abuser.

But thats what many misled leaders in churches want to see. However - an abuser has in my opinion no right to demand forgiveness for himself. and he has no right to demand that the abused person does what he expects to see, so he can "accept" the forgiveness!

thats in itself another atempt to abuse the person!

so if its this what you expect people here on factnet, then i tell you frank and free, you have not learned anything out of this discussions happening here!

[robert_unknown]

another thing:

forgiveness is something GOD demands from us. its solely between GOD and the victim first. later it might affect a relation, if there is any.

repentance is broader. its something GOD demands from the abuser. and its something GOD demamds that the abuser corrects. its affects both relations: the relation between the abuser and God and the abuser and the victim.

so my advice to you:
please go to your leaders, and ask them if they could repent from abuse and correct their attitudes and relations to their victims.
if you feel called to mediate between us and them, so please fullfill the other part of your obligation as well.

(Message edited by robert_unknown on September 27, 2006)

[mcmstaff78]

Justyn's latest post is just another attempt to manipulate the victim and make him or her feel guilty. The situation he describes is *not* from the midst of WWII but long after and the man was coming after he had converted to Christ - i.e. repented of his sins. Howevers, she didn't submit herself to the same position she had been in before with this man.

Of course, we can and should forgive others from our hearts. But "pastors" who spiritually/sexually/physically abuse their "flock" should be removed from authority and, if they repent, must demonstrate fruit "meet for repentance". As John the Baptist said to the Pharisees and Saducees "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:" (Mat 3:7-8) Where there is no real repentance, crimes must be exposed to protect other innocents who might also be abused.

Don't be deceived, God does not expect you to stay anywhere and be a punching bag (litterally or metaphorically) for a so-called "man of God".

[robert_unknown]

there is no such thing as submission under abusive authority in the bible. no person with sane mind would submit under someone who repeats abusing him/her.

"slavish obedience" in german "Kadavergehorsam" was used by he preussian army and later by the faszists in their armies. the soldiers had to obey until death to their leaders.

is it this, what Justyn wants us to embrace again in our lives?
does he want us to go back and submit again under abusive leaders?
is what he is trying to do here an official line of/ in EN?

well - than its rather a confirmation for me, that we are doing the right thing here, with exposing those things publicly!

but if i am wrong, justyn might explain, what he expects us to do...

[robert_unknown]

... or how he thinjs we should have to behave...

[ginger1]

FROM OSCAR RAGUS FOR JUSTYN M.

Justyn,

Let’s assume that a man raped/sodomized you. According to what you wrote about forgiveness, you will:

1) refuse to be the victim
2) cancel the debt (i.e., let the rapist off the hook; not press any charges)
3) get on with your life
4) allow God to be the justice maker

Even if that rapist/sodomizer were unrepentant and did not apologize, I’m guessing that you will forgive him and forget about getting revenge.

Now, let’s assume that that same offender begins to rape other people and continues to search for more victims. You, as a former victim--will you speak out against that rapist even if you have forgiven him (in hopes that the rapist will change and in hopes that possible victims will be warned)...or will you choose to be quiet and let him harm more people?


I would equate spiritual abuse with “spiritual rape,” where the victims have been violated and unduly taken advantage of. I think those who have been spiritually abused/raped will not want to remain silent--even if they have forgiven the offenders--for concern that others are in harm’s way.

The apostle Paul wrote:
“Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. You too should be on your guard against him, because he strongly opposed our message.” (2 Timothy 3:14-15).

I’m guessing that the apostle Paul, who teaches about forgiveness, has already forgiven Alexander. But why would he still write against Alexander? I believe that one reason is to warn Timothy, so that Timothy wouldn’t come into harm’s way unnecessarily--because Alexander has not changed.

I do see the same principle at work here in FACTnet. That is, I believe the posters are in essence writing:
“The EN leaders did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay them for they have done. You too should be on your guard against them...”

So, I personally am willing to give these anti-EN posters the benefit of the doubt (i.e., I won’t equate their speaking out against EN as necessarily being unforgiving).

Oscar

[ginger1]

Justyn M. Couple of question, first you been posting about forgiveness, and forgive what ? Your EN and VCF ministry have repeatedly said that you guys have done NO WRONG.

Second, How much raise are you going to get when you start posting here. I know about the VCF incentives. A position, a raise, just wondering since you are a pastor there, do the VCF Ministry pay for your housing ? Or thats what you are aiming for ?

[robert_unknown]

excellent post, oscar, whoever you are! thank you!

the abuser and/ or the person who sympatices with him NEVER understand, that what he did is wrong! therefore dealing with the abuse, the way we do it may be part of the recovery. many of us was sympaticing with abusive people and/ or an abusive environement until it abused us.

people who suffer from "Stockholm Syndrome" also sympatice with their abuser.

to becoming free it is VITAL to speak out against the abuse and the abuser/ abusive environement.

its part of the healing process.

in this respect, there should also be a lot of grace towards people who perhaps say to much, or react angrily.

if justyn (and other people) REALLY would be concerned about our health or healing, or if he RELLY would understand spiritual and psychical process of restoration, he would not try to quite us.

for healing to take place the following steps are necesary:

1- recognize that you ARE the victim, and that what happened towards you is NOT your fault!
2- recognize that what happened was NOT right. what the person did was not right, and the abuser is the one who did something wrong!
3- recognize that your feelings of anger, sadness are all right (at least for a while) and NORMAL
4- deal with the situation - speak out against it, speak out against unrightousness
5- forgive as a decision
6- try to solve and settle the issue...

so in this respect, factnet helped me personally a lot!

the most important thing i learned is, that in my situation it was not just between me and one person, but it was in fact a system that encouraged this abuse, that happened to me.

where the roots of this system are buried is another story, and i have my thoughts about it, as you guys know.

however - reform should be an option. if reform fails, everyone who understands what happenes can decide to leave or stay...

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
Thank you Robert for your well said and researched posts here. Thank you ! I have been helped here also, and the things that happened to me in this group were a good long day ago.}

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Oscar!
Thank you Ginger, that was a needed and well received, I hope.}

[pilgrim]

Hi OSCAR RAGUS,

Welcome back! You do not come very often but when you do you surely bless us with your messages.

justyn_m,

You wrote, Is the above statement true? Corrie Ten Boom wrote a story about her experience of forgiveness,

She also exposed all the abuse and evil she suffered in the concentration camp with her sister.
She did not hide all the evil deeds under the rug.
In the same way I believe that the whole story of Maranatha should be told in great detail so that others HOPEFULLY will learnt from history and this abuse is never be repeated or at least people will know what a cult is and what tactics are used to abuse and control people. We need to warn others so they do not fall on the same trap. Maranatha 1984 is doing a great job in exposing this whole mess. I am grateful that I had the chance to read his blog.

This notice board is great I wish I have the chance to read it before I joined Maranatha or at least right after I left Maranatha. At that time I still have the chance of a full recovery.

[speakword2004]

You guys are my heroes in the Faith.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Pilgrim,
I glad that you are here. Healing will come, don't know if anyone recover completely. We will all still limp a little.}

[ginger1]

according to Justyn M - forgiveness is Understand the meaning of forgiveness – to cover, to erase, and to send away the sins of the offender. Therefore when we forgive we are actually giving the persons a clean sheet of paper – we release the person from the penalty of sin.

Like they did to Bernard Marquez , Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes.
Declare them NOT GUILTY. Give them a clean sheet of paper. In fact even declare that they never stolen a dime.
Jesus died for them, God have forgiven them . So they should also, thats why they were given a clean sheet of paper. A clean AUDIT.

[j2theperson]

I suppose Jesus was harboring unforgiveness in His heart when He called the Pharisees white-washed tombs and drove the money changers from the Temple.

[robert_unknown]

ginger,

i would love to see if the measure of "forgiveness" that the guys grant each other would also be given to people like you and I, if we would take $20.000,- with the credit card of the church for ourselves,...

but i guess we would see the 2-class system alive...

[jbkrems]

Ginger,

I think I agree with Justyn M's definition of forgiveness, to release the offender from the penalty of his sins.

However, I would say this is to be distinguished from being qualified for ministry, because ministry involves a sacred trust, which in the case of someone who has committed grave offenses, such trust must be restored and such a person needs to be restored fully (which can take a rather long time) before he/she is back allowed to be in full-time ministry, esp. if such ministry is a pulpit.

[flo1151]

In 1970 or 71 I went to St. Louis to hear Corrie Ten Boom speak. Although her story was quite inspiring and one of forgiveness, you left with a since that she had been empowered and would not have gone back to prison camp. I don't think she would have allowed herself to be placed in the prison camp of her own free will in the first place. She was a strong woman, Justyne what you are saying would mean you must remain a doormat for others to walk over.

[pilgrim]

Coppertree,

Thank you for your loving message. It may me feel that I am not alone and other people are going though the same experience as me or perhaps even worse.

You wrote, Healing will come, don't know if anyone recover completely. We will all still limp a little.

Thank you those words it is nice to know that I am not alone going through this and that we can pray for each other. I think that sometimes false doctrines and abuse lead you to make wrong decitions that are sometimes imposible to undo. Those decitions can affect your present life. You are right I think that we will all still limp a little but God will use our experiences to help orhers to keep away from cults.

Blessings
pilgrim

[mcmstaff78]

Also, we must distinguish between the Gospel command on a personal level to forgive our enemies and the civic requirements we have as citizens of a community, state and nation. We are also admonished to "do justly" and protection of the innocent is an important aspect of loving our neighbor. The admonition to turn the other cheek is not a requirement to offer up the cheek of others as well.

Additionally, the release of person retribution or debt is not the same as there being no civic consequences to someone's action against me. While it is sometimes the case in our legal system when someone refuses to "press charges" the authorities have little recourse but to not pursue criminal action, there are a number of crimes that need no victim to press charges - domestic violence being one such in many, if not most, states these days. One's responsibility in such matters is intensified when others are involved (i.e. the perpetrator harms not just myself, but has harmed others and is continuing to harm, or the potential for harm is high). While I can forgive for myself, I cannot forgive for others and am bound to act in a manner consistent with their best interests (i.e. love).

Churches that seek to sweep abusive, even criminal, actions under the rug by preasuring victims to "forgive and forget" are simply engaging in CYA action and are enabling sin. The first step to repentance and healing is recognizing the problem. And the problem *isn't* that people are talking about these things, but that they were done in the first place and there has been no accountability. That is shameful.

[ginger1]

Jbkrem, Forgiveness is releasing the offender from your heart. But did you noticed that Justyn M have repeatedly said letting the offender off the hook and washing the slate clean. That includes stop warning people about a serial abuses in VCF and EN.

That also includes practice what they are doing, in any criminal activities, sweep it under the rug. Don't call the proper authorities.

JBkrem, we are still called to be our "brother's Keeper" it is our job to warn other brothers and sister who are coming to the kingdom of God or some who are already in the Kingdom of God. When you see a lion coming, was it not your job to warn people ? Or would you rather run away and let the other people deal with it ?
Justyn M NEVER acknowledge wrongdoings. In fact he stated the opposite. That they never done any wrongdoings. Then posting about letting it go and Not warning people. do you think thats the right thing to do ?

mcmstaff78 well said.

(Message edited by ginger1 on September 28, 2006)

[flo1151]

ginger and78
I'm lookin and I'm a likin.

[pabdul]

Hello all,

I have been reading for almost 6 months now. There is some good healing taking place on this forum. However, I was confused about the need to speak out against the cultic tactics. I am no longer in EN and have been asked by many people why I left. I did not feel it necessary to state the "true" reasons, as that is really between the Lord and me. However, I have been searching my heart to discern what the Lord wants told in this case. There have been incorrect stories told about my departure from people in the church to other members. My family and I have definitely suffered the shunning and other various abusive treatment from pastors. I know others here have struggled with this same issue of "to speak or not to speak". Any scripture that comes to mind would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all for your words and encouragement throughout the healing process. God Bless you.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi and Welcome Pabdul,
There is healing, He will lead you and care for you. Jesus is the good shepherd.
I was shunned and slandered greatly. People were told that I and my family were from the devil. I still see people that run from me in stores, this has even happened this summer.You can be lead by His spirit. The word tells us to contend for correct doctrine, abuse is not correct doctrine.}

[jbkrems]

Ginger:

I noticed that, but I don't think it means you cannot warn people. I think there is a way to warn people without harboring it against them.

I also do not think it includes NOT calling the authorities, and sweeping criminal activity under the rug.

I know you know Justyn better than I do, but that's what I get from him. To me, I can forgive and at the same time have a situation handled civicly if it involves criminal behavior. I mean, look at this situation that happened yesterday in Colorado... these girls are going to have forgive the offender, but that does not mean they should not help the authorities in the investigation.

And I think I agree with what you're saying here, that there is a duty to warn... I just do not know Justyn as you do, and therefore do not come to these judgments concerning him.

[justyn_m]

Dear Friend,

Thank you for your concern. You stated, "I would equate spiritual abuse with 'spiritual rape,' where the victims have been violated and unduly taken advantage of. I think those who have been spiritually abused/raped will not want to remain silent--even if they have forgiven the offenders--for concern that others are in harm’s way." Those are very strong words you have written against Every Nation leaders. I have nothing against speaking out, however, since this concerns local church problems they must approach the concerned leaders and seat with them. If they have already voice out their concerns and the leaders won't listen, then I suggest that they leave the church and look for another church where they will grow spiritually. After all, it's the Lord who takes care of His church. Come to think of it, there are hundreds even thousands of church leaders out there that needs to corrected withregards to their character, attitude, doctrine, morals, etc. Do you plan to spend your lifetime here on earth just to expose a set of local church leaders just because you were not vindicated? I don't think the Holy Spirit's gift is meant for that. My friend, God knows how to deal with his children. Read Hebrews 12:5-11 and you will be enlightened. By the way, the Bible has nothing to say about voicing out to the whole world your concerns over the local church problems. Don't you know this will only divide the body of Christ rather than heal and unite it?

When you quoted a verse from the book of Acts about Paul writing to Timothy, that is still a local church protocol. The apostle Paul is the overseer of the churches and Timothy is one of the pastors who was place in-charge of a local church. It is Paul's duty to warn Timothy against this non-believer namely Alexander (the metalworker) who did him major harm. Why do you think didn't Paul wrote to one of the church members instead. This is because Timothy is the one concerned about this problem since he himself is the pastor of that particular local church. When reading the New Testament, I would suggest that you follow proper hermeneutical guidelines. Grab hold a copy of "Reading the Bible For All It's Worth." That book helped me a lot. God bless!

<font color="119911">Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, <u>but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.</u></font> (Eph 4:29)

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

I hope we learn from this particular church message:

For example, one way UN-forgiveness hurts us is PSYCHOLOGICALLY.

You see, people who refuse to forgive—people who entertain bitter thoughts and exhibit angry attitudes toward others—well...they often turn into bitter, angry, joy-LESS people. They become psychological hostages to their own hate. Lee Strobel says, “They don’t hold a grudge as much as the grudge holds them.” And he’s right. UN-forgiveness has the power to change us psychologically and emotionally. This is what Proverbs 23:7 means when it says, “As a man thinks within himself, so he is.” Several times I have seen people who have been wronged—but because they refused to forgive they became bitter to the point that they became just like the people who had wronged them.

So if you WANT to become a resentful person, refuse to forgive—fill your mind with resentful thoughts and plans. You see, resentment literally means “to feel again.” An UN-forgiving attitude causes us to cling to the past, to relive it over and over again, picking at each fresh “scab” so that the mental wound never heals. It is no wonder that Job 5:2 says, “To worry yourself to death with resentment would be a foolish, senseless thing to do.” (The Living Bible)

In his book, Healing for Damaged Emotions, Dr. David Seaman writes, “The two primary causes of emotional stress are the failure to forgive and the failure to receive forgiveness.”

God knows this. He knows that UN-forgiveness can damage our spirits. He knows that the only way to heal the emotional wounds caused by others is to forgive them.

God bless you and your family!

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[robert_unknown]

"Why do you think didn't Paul wrote to one of the church members instead. "

you forgot that the letters (and this includes the letter to timothy) have been read PUBLICLY in the church to ALL the church members! this was the factr how Pauls letters have been used in the early church! in fact this was one of the qualifications of a letter in the process of canonizing the New Testament. The letters must have been read by all the churches. today this expose of the metalworkes evil charakter is in the most read book of the world. so Paul did not hide anything, he exposed things. He did the same thing to Peter who started to become a pleaser of men at one occasion (by seperating himself from the gentile-christians)...

Paul was NOT privately talking to Thimothy, but he was exposing the metalworkers sin publicly.

I agree that there are things which should be kept privately. But if sin harms the body of Christ and pure and simple believers (like abuse, theft, fraud...), than everyone has the God gove right and duty to warn others about it, even if this means going public with it!

thank God for the Internet, which makes is impossible for men to keep every evil thing they do hidden. Thank God for the possibility of exposing sin like abuse publicly.


in respect to your concerns about the division of the body of Christ:

the things that REALLY hurt the body of Christ are leaders who do not keep the most basic ethical conditions! people who are in a position, that doesnt fit to their charakter. People who are at the wrong place!

1.TIM 3,1-6
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.


we have people without self-controle (which leads to abuse of people, even sometimes sexual-abuse), people who LOVE money (otherswise you dont take 600k/annum), people who are not respectable (the want to force respect on others but dont want to earn it by serving), people who are violent (abuse IS violence) and people who have NO good reputation with outsiders (which often is onsidered as "persecution"...) in leadership positions. we want others to "submit" under greedy, violent unrespectable men without self-controle?

The thing the body of Christ lacks most is leaders who fullfill Pauls conditions for leadership.

THIS should be your BIGGEST concern, Justyn. And this should be the thing you should be aware of in your own life as a leader!

your concern should be YOUR personality and charakter and not the charakter of us here. I apprechiate what you say about forgiveness. But in my opinion you are concerned about the wrong things.

[ginger1]

I love what Speak said on the other thread.

I get back to find that our "friend" is back. Our martyr of Apologia assures us that we need just forgive and move on in glib assurance that the silent and screw-eyed and patiently patronised will inherit everlasting conditional peace in some paradise of relegated fools. We need just kiss the Fake Forgiveness Father idol's ring. I hear a whip Justyn. No real love or passion.

[ginger1]

Robert, Justyn M is looking for a promotion in VCF. You see, VCF pays free rental housing for Senior pastors and they give extra bonus and a raise. He loves having the VCF pastors calls him "pastor" or a title in the church. He loves the attention but foremost it would be Steve Murrell. He is just dying to get Steve Murrell's attention. Oh, he would loved to have a pat in the back and hearing him say "good Work, you faithful servant". That would be the HIGHLIGHT of his week !

Can somebody in VCF ,go nudge Steve and tell him that Justyn M been wanting his attention . He has been idolizing him you know for the longest time. You know like in my former church, some of the men were just thrilled to get Phil Bonasso private cell phone number. He does not give that away to just anybody, just favored ones. It was the highlight of their day !

They were dreaming that they were in third heaven. Dancing with angels.
Ahem, can somebody nudge Steve and just give Justyn M , Steve private number ? Just to shut him up ? Have some sympathy you guys, Justyn M have been trying to get his attention for the longest time. Just give to the poor guy so he can stop begging for attention here.

[mcmstaff78]

Yeah, Justyn's whole position is really a house of cards. Paul didn't write in public? Well, as has been pointed out, of course he did - that's why we have the letters as scriptures. When "leadership" is rotten, there is no approaching it. These do-it-yourself denominations are like guys who set up compounds out the middle of nowhere and declare themselves independent from the government. Then they proceed to use and abuse their followers any way they please. They become the final judge, jury and executioner.

Justyn's harping on forgiveness, bitterness, privacy, etc., is just a smokescreen. He is attempting to guilt people into *shutting up*. That is his purpose. EN and it's ilk cannot get to you folks who escaped and have an individual "hootah" session, you wouldn't fall for that. Instead, they try to insert someone here who tries the same kind of manipulative practice they would engage in in a face-to-face meeting.

By all means, forgive from your heart. Do not hold bitterness, it simply allows that person to continue "owning" you. But do not shut up. Speak out of love toward all the others caught up in this vicious net. Speak up for righteousness sake. Speak up for the innocents who haven't found their own voice. Don't be silenced!

[speakword2004]

Amen!

[ginger1]

Justyn M , is the Philippine church experiencing financial difficulties ? Some revolt ? That might be lined up to your future position and future finances ? Hoping to silence us through guilt ? And at the same time getting Steve's attention ?

[robert_unknown]

" When "leadership" is rotten, there is no approaching it. These do-it-yourself denominations are like guys who set up compounds out the middle of nowhere and declare themselves independent from the government. Then they proceed to use and abuse their followers any way they please. They become the final judge, jury and executioner. "

well sayd MCMstaff78!
a good friend of mine is a lawyer. he thinks some practices are evry iritating in charismatic churches. some of the guys literally set themselves above the civil law. thats like a "christian taliban".

[ulyankee]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

These do-it-yourself denominations are like guys who set up compounds out the middle of nowhere and declare themselves independent from the government. Then they proceed to use and abuse their followers any way they please. They become the final judge, jury and executioner.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I might add that they claim to be THE government, THE authority to those who come under their "covering," often unawares. And then people who start to wake up to the truth about this so-called authority are made to feel guilty and ashamed for daring to ask questions or speak the truth to or about that government, by saying that God must have placed them in that "spiritual family" under "authority" so they have to respect that authority.

Note that one of the main issues the ad-hoc committee raised about Maranatha was how they interpreted scriptures about submitting to secular, governmental authority as also applying to church leadership - which I have also seen and heard many, many times in MSI &amp; EN teachings... including the Purple Book which lays the foundation for this kind of submission imho.

The church authority that Paul exhorted the church to respect were TRUE workers and leaders in Christ who worked for the TRUE gospel. And the only way one knows which is which is through TESTING, as exemplified by nearly all the NT epistles.

NOT false "super apostles." Fortunately, unlike the apostle Paul (a true, biblical apostle) none of us here to my knowledge have ever said that we wished they could go the rest of the way and emasculate themselves. That doesn't sound very forgiving to me.

But it is in the Bible!

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 29, 2006)

[dust]

Justyn, I want to believe you are sincere in raising the issue of forgiveness, which is always the most beneficial for the heart, spiritually and literally. HOWEVER, you also said this:

from Justyn "I have nothing against speaking out, however, since this concerns local church problems they must approach the concerned leaders and seat with them. If they have already voice out their concerns and the leaders won't listen, then I suggest that they leave the church and look for another church where they will grow spiritually."

DUST: There is a great deal of church history including beginning in the book of ACTS that refutes this.

1. Every Nation operates on a centralized government...EVEN IF, the leaders of the local church were to agree for reform of false doctrines/false gospels, they would not be free to change, unless they broke away from what is actually a false denomination.

2. Martin Luther and the 95 Thesis was posted at the CHURCH DOOR, PUBLICLY and addressed LOUDLY the issue of false doctrine. He never intended to break up the church, only wanting needed reform, worth fighting for, worth dying for.

And, I quote the last six of the 95:

90. To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.

91. If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.

92. Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Peace, peace," and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)

93. Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, "Cross, cross," and there is no cross!

94. Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.

95. And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).

REREAD especially the last TWO of the THESIS. The issues at hand are namely a false doctrine of HEADSHIP and COVERING which are NOT the true gospel and cannot be found in the scriptures, and upon which Every Nation hangs it's hat to pervert the ESSENCE of that which is CHRIST, AS HEAD of the CHURCH.

So again, PUBLICLY Martin Luther was forced...as I myself have been forced to say to the ENTIRE WORLD of Every Nation and any other body that is adhering to this same false doctrine.

Christ is the HEAD of the church. And no human "head" supercedes that which is Christ.

To teach anything else is HERESY, and must be publicly denounced.

The exposure is worldwide, because THEY extend worldwide.

[pilgrim]

from Justyn "I have nothing against speaking out, however, since this concerns local church problems they must approach the concerned leaders and seat with them. If they have already voice out their concerns and the leaders won't listen, then I suggest that they leave the church and look for another church where they will grow spiritually."


I would like to say that there is not point in telling the Pope that worshiping Mary is idolitry. He will still worship Mary and teach his false church to do the same.

The false doctrines from any denomination needs to be exposed in public to protect the Body of Christ from deception. Many people in Maranatha in Argentina were Christians from others denominations. This people had fallen into deception in Marantha because their previous church did not teach them clearly that some doctrines like the doctrine of covering were false, unbiblical/extrabiblical.

Once fallen into deception was not easy to leave Maranatha because you were brainwashed into believing that to leave Maranatha without the permision of the leaders is was equal to leaving God. It was also a fear that you would be in Satan's hand and be destroyed so I myself tried to obey the leaders even when I couldn't understand at that time why the kingdon of God was so evil and why I could not see any love.
Now I understand the reason, It was a dangerous cult.

[lablady2]

"I would like to say that there is not point in telling the Pope that worshiping Mary is idolitry. He will still worship Mary and teach his false church to do the same."

Idolatry is worshipping anything other than God or placing someone or something above God. The pope is not alone. There are many who worship pastors, ministry, and their own theology. Some forms of idolatry are just a little easier to recognize than others, especially if they are not our own.

[dust]

I am misunderstood. I was not addressing the issues with the pope, but the issue with Justyn saying that people should leave and go to another local church and basically that it is not their place to expose heresy. I use Martin Luther and his 95 Thesis only as an example that looking back in history, many people thought Martin Luther himself to be WRONG and a heretic for questioning the church and the practice of selling indulgences.

I see it as completely appropriate to step back and say to Every Nation "The doctrines you teach are wrong and they are a false gospel."

Regarding the other forms of idolatry, well, you'll find that anywhere in any faith, and in politics, and in corporations, and in telelvision (look at Oprah) and this is the way of people, we do live in a culture of people seeking heroes.

I have long ago repented for staying too long at a church I believed abused this doctrine. Never did I want to believe I was worshipping in a place where the position of Christ in the church was perverted. And, the process of that discovery was one of great pain, actually anguish.

So I can feel just a little bit of the sting of the struggle of wanting to APPEAL to the leadership to make straight what was crooked. And, Justyn, not only did I go to the local church, I spoke personally with Rice Broocks at length. And, those doctrines continue to this day. And, it's not about just move to another local church. In my city where I live, there are alliances being made with the Christian churches and Every Nation. If they were simply a local church, you might have a point.

But, I have access to SEE and HEAR the reality of what is happening here at the world headquarters. I can't simply go to another local church. Every Nation weaves in and around the Christian community here. And, actually, I hadn't thought about the IMPACT of this so much until YOUR POST today. I think people (especially Nashvillians) reading this should think long and hard about what they are supporting and be free in opening discussions.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All- Catching up
Well said Dust and researched, and so true. I pray for them to have eyes to see and ears to hear !!

Ul - Someone in Canada took what Maranatha said to him, to heart.}

[dust]

I want to add that I DO indeed worship in another local church in the area. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I have turned my back on the WORLD WIDE IMPACT that Every Nation is making with the false doctrines of "covering" and "headship" (the doctrines that are the crux of all the other abuses).

They are impacting ALL the local churches that are not EN churches. They are impacting churches globally and, thus, impacting THE ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST.

[pilgrim]

Dust,

You wrote, I see it as completely appropriate to step back and say to Every Nation "The doctrines you teach are wrong and they are a false gospel.

You are absolutely right, at least two of my ex Maranatha leaders had repented of the abuse and said sorry to me. They said that now they teaching sound doctrine and they want to forget about Maranatha but as far as I know they have done very little to expose the false doctrines that they were teaching. At the moment I have a good relationship with some of my ex Maranatha leaders/elders and some of them know that I am posting here to help others no to fall on the same trap and they understood that. They have also read the The History of Maranatha in Argentina and they told me that in their opinion what I have written was well balance. All the ex members of Maranatha need to understand clearly the false doctrines that they believed or teached otherwise they can easily get involved in another cult or even start another cult. They could also polute a healthy church with some of the false doctrines from Maranatha even if they had sincerely repented of the control and abuse.

I would also recommend to all the ex member of Maranatha to read this notice board to enable them to fully understand what they were involved with, why some doctrines were false and to discuss and learn sound doctrine.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Pilgrim,
Well said. You are telling the truth and a way to fix it. You are fortunate to have at least two of you former leaders repent of their abuse. If mine could find me, I would get dipped in some hot oil, I fear. And more bad things said about me. They have much to lose, but that well may what God is calling them to do.}

[pilgrim]

Coppertree,

In 1982 I thought that they would never repent or say sorry. I am glad that I was wrong!!!

May be one day your ex leaders will say sorry, that would be just another big miracle. I do hoppe that they do repent before the day of judgement.

[pilgrim]

Coppertree,

If your leaders do not repent probably this is what will happen in the day of judgement.

Jesus will say to them coppertree did loved you as if you were her own family and her very own brothers and sisters and she needed you but you slander her whole reputation rejected her and brainwashed the ohers to the same.Get out of here I never knew you. Copertree remember that if they reject you is the same as if they reject Jesus.

Blessings

pilgrim

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi Pilgrim,
I hope they will repent to our Lord. It doesn't have to done to me. I was guilty also. I was a leader in this group. I mistreated other people, I have repented to all that I could find. We thought that we were right, that this was a good way to please God. That is why it is so destructive, people you trust with God's own words and care hurt and abuse. Few hands are clean}

[justyn_m]

Dear People,

Some friendly posters here are trying to place themselves in the very shoes of the great reformer namely Martin Luther. They are trying to identify themselves with Luther as if his way of exposing is likened to what they are doing here. This is of course a far cry from the original intention of Martin Luther himself. HIs intention is to straighten out some doctrinal discrepencies like idolatry, penance, popery, and others by encouraging the whole leadership system to go back to Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia.

This is just to inform some of our readers about the real nature of what Martin Luther did to prevent them from being misled.

Please visit this: http://www.luther.de/en/anschlag.html

By the way, I hope you will learn from Dr. Luther's quote, <font color="119911">"Forgiveness is God's command."</font>

Friends, lets learn to forgive and forget about the past. After all, we are brothers and sisters in the Lord. If God forgave you and He chose not to remember the past, why not us?

"Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past." (Isa 43:18)

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[mcmstaff78]

And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war, And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him, And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD. But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out. (Numbers 32:20-23)

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. (Proverbs 28:13)

[speakword2004]

Justyn

I believe such incidences such as the cover-up of the Paul Daniel scandal in 1996 and the Phil Bonasso storyt of 2005 and other such incidences now rife in EN could have led to some people's consciences becoming ensnared. The application of covering to such instances is unbiblical and ungiodly and Martin Luther would have fought against it.

"If bishops have the right to burden churches with infinite traditions, and to ensnare consciences, why does Scripture so often prohibit to make, and to listen to, traditions? Why does it call them "doctrines of devils"? 1 Tim. 4, 1. Did the Holy Ghost in vain forewarn of these things? "

from Article XXVIII: Of Ecclesiastical Power. The Augsberg Confession

[speakword2004]

CHRISTIAN: WHO IS YOUR COVERING?
A CHRISTIAN LOOK AT THE SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT
by Steve Coleman comes highly recommended.

This interesting article to be found on the internet deals directly with what MCM is talking about and that is the Covering Doctrine born out of the Shepherding movement which much of Maranatha subscribed to. Steve Murrell, Bill Bennot and Rice Broocks all received their ministry training in Maranatha Campus Ministries.

[speakword2004]

As for Martin Luther? C Peter Wagner who has patronised the EN ministry school and has extensive relations with EN, has recently called for the abolishment of the Theologian. Imagine the Popish bishops trying to do that! And Martin Luther was a qualified theologian.

http://www.ministrytodaymag.com/blog/2006/09/guest-commentary-goodbye-theologians.html

[dust]

Justyn, it's not "some friendly posters"..it was me, Dust. So I can remain in the conversatation.

I am not trying place myself in the very shoes of the great reformer namely Martin Luther" as you write above. What he did was great, but he, as a person, not so great. (See below).

But, I made an excellent point in comparing the exposing of false doctine, the "covering doctrine" and "headship" doctrine which is as equally WRONG as popery, penance, and indulgences. How is it not?

And there are TWO issues here:

1. Is it correct to expose false doctrine?
2. Individual forgiveness.

The FIRST issue is all we can hope to accomplish here and that will probably continue being exposed as long as it exists. So then that will up to Every Nation, just as Every Nation EXPOSES the doctrinal problems of cathoicism STILL TO THIS DAY. It was discussed in our memebership class and they even went so far as to say that Catholics aren't going to heaven.

The SECOND issue FORGIVENESS is an individual matter (that while the idea of each person walking in forgiveness is good, the forgetting is not and it's really not your business. This is something between each person and God and you can't legislate this...you can pray for us.

Regarding Martin Luther... I don't consider him any higher than myself. I'm doing what I'm called to do, as did he. And, on a personal note, I hope I'm better...he was anti-semitic and NOT the best husband, made many enemies with a raging temper. I don't concern myself with making Martin Luther my "hero".... I worship Christ.

[justyn_m]

Dear Friend,

The book you mentioned deals with the past practice of the Maranatha Christian Ministries and it is very unloving of us to make it hard for our brethren who have erred in the past and not give them a chance to recover.

Unfortunately, some Christians were also making it hard for the Worldwide Church of God before from hurdling over the fence due to their past mistakes. People, let's love one another and help one another to be more Christlike. The enemy is not among us.

<font color="119911">"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ’s sake, hath forgiven you." — Ephesians 4:32 (KJV)

"There is a noble forgetfulness—that which does not remember injuries." — Charles Simmons</font>

God bless you brothers and sisters!

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[speakword2004]

Justyn you cite Isaiah 43:18 totally out of context.

If you read the passage God tells Israel about the past and then says to them to forget the past and its mistakes as He does something new to redeem Israel and this is a meaning something different to what your intent is. The past is not hidden away, covered up or subject to some Holy amnesia. The errors of Israel are not smudged out and the preceding books and, in this case, the preceding written verses, but left intact for all the world to see Israel's dirty laundry and shame. Remember that only the blood of the Lamb can cover us before God and not some secretive half-hearted confession to a few co-conspirators.

[mcmstaff78]

The problem with Justyn's latest post is that it presupposes something not proved (and not even in evidence), that Every Nation has recognized past "mistakes" and are working at changing. Covering up the past, keeping the same people in "leadership" but simply shifting them around, and not acknowledging to the members what was wrong and what steps are being made to correct them are not acts of repentance and conversion.

Of course, it is refreshing to see someone admit that, like the Worldwide Church of God, EN has not been a Christian organization.

[speakword2004]

Justyn

You admit then there were cover-ups in the past?

Eph 4
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.

[justyn_m]

Dear Friend,

You mentioned, "The past is not hidden away, covered up or subject to some Holy amnesia. The errors of Israel are not smudged out and the preceding books and, in this case, the preceding written verses, but left intact for all the world to see Israel's dirty laundry and shame." I agree, that's why the apostle Paul wrote, "These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come." (1Co 10:11)

However, can you also boldly claim the very words of the apostle Paul and apply it to Every Nation? Is this statement a principle binding for all generations or to a specific group of people only? If this is binding alone towards Every Nation then I don't think people who are knowledgeable with Scriptures will agree with you. That will be very subjective interpretation. Don't you think so?

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

Please read this part of the preaching of Pastor Charles J. Miller II,

<font color="ff0000">What can be done by Christians to reach that place of healing broken relationships?

First of all, we have to recognize broken relationships are nothing new. They didn’t start with the first time you got hurt. They go all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Remember that scene where God calls to Adam and Eve right after they have eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God wants to know what’s happened and good old Adam is quick to shift the blame. “The woman, whom you gave to be with me, made me do it!” The woman, not wanting to get left holding the bag, shifts the blame and says, “The serpent beguiled me”. Can you imagine the argument between Adam and Eve as they are kicked out of the Garden? Eve turning to Adam and saying, “Where do you get off blaming me?” and so it begins.

Secondly, everyone is hurt by the broken relationship. It doesn’t matter who is at fault. Like Adam and then Eve we worry to much about who is at fault. Notice in Scripture God doesn’t care. We are hurt whether we caused the hurt or the other person did.

Now if anyone ever had reason to hold a grudge, Joseph did. Moreover he had the power to exact revenge. Joseph, as the second most powerful person in Egypt could have had his brothers executed and nobody would have batted an eye. Yet Joseph knew the grace of God and refused to judge, asking, “Am I in the place of God?” Instead he was more like God when he forgave his brothers. Joseph’s pride and sense of fairness demanded retribution, but instead Joseph grasped the hope of God and restored his relationship with his brothers. He was better for it and experienced the healing God wants for all of us.

What can be done by Christians to reach that place of healing broken relationships?

The first thing we must do is to recognize that Adam and Eve are us. We must recognize that we are sinners! There are no exceptions to this. None of us are better than another. Not one of us holds the moral high ground. We are all down in the muck. Not one of us has grounds to judge another!</font>

I hope all of us learn from this. God bless!

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>}

[speakword2004]

Justyn

I did not state that any scripture is binding on EN alone. Stand back from your attempt to discredit me by guile and read again what I wrote.

[ginger1]

Justyn M, that is very deceptive of you to lighten everything as mere broken relationship.
We are posting about illegal activites and hiding the past. We all know Steve Murrell never hid the maranatha past. BUT Rice and Phil did. And all these churches that have left, had no idea about EN's past history after they found out, a lot of them left. There is a deceptive cover up of Maranatha history. Until Ulyankee pulled up its history. None of these churches knew about it.

This is not a mere broken relationship. This is an evil past that a serious SERIAL control and abuses for over 30 years. A REPEATED Serial Abuser. WIth SEVERAL BROKEN RELATIOHSIP not just on individual people here but it continue on to Broken relationship with CHURCHES AND MINISTRIES. Lies and trust BROKEN by EN Leaders , not just to people alone but churches and ministries across the world.

This includes the INDONESIAN CHURCHES WHO LOST THEIR TRUST ON EN LEADERS, especially in handling their Mission finances.
Lousiana churches had no idea about EN's past history. YOUR EN Ministry LIED.

You are attempting to minimized the seriousness of what EN has done will not work here.

[ginger1]

You got to be a FOOL to believe that these churches and ministries left because God is heading them to a different direction spiritually that is not lined up with EN.

ALL CHURCHES AND MINISTRIES have the SAME GOAL. Reach out the Lost, whether they are students or not. Planting churches. Sharing the gospel. Building God's Kingdom. Only fools will have a conference about it.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Justin,
Actually Martin Luther was responsible for the deaths of many people in German city state. He openly said that he regretted that.}

[dust]

Justyn
I think if you believe you had a point to make, you made it, and you should be done. There are people here called to expose the false doctrines and abuses of Every Nation. You can let God judge this calling. You can either pepetrate such abuses yourself, ask forgiveness of those you have hurt, be forgiving of those who have hurt you, or all of the above, but you should go in peace now because you are causing agitation, but for no end that I see as good.

And, if you came in love, then go in love and take your concerns to prayer.

[robert_unknown]

"HIs intention is to straighten out some doctrinal discrepencies like idolatry, penance, popery, and others by encouraging the whole leadership system to go back to Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and Sola Gratia. "

and thats exactly the concern i am sharing with others for EN.

there is idolatry (personal cult around certain leaders), there are new and unbiblical and unbalanced sets of "indulgencies" (ie "subit and obey and thou will be blessed", "dont touch the anointed one",... etc...etc...), there is a new sort of popery with all the negative aspects like personal enrichement out of church. and missionfunds, greed, abuse...

reform is something that you find all over the bible. reform is REALLY something prophetic! all the prophets until John Babist where reformers, who publicly judged unrightessness, be it in the religous or in the worldly leadership or in the society.

What Luther did was biblical.

What we are doing is also biblical!

It is NOT biblical to just leave the church by not at least trying to encourage the leadership to rethink what they are doing and for encouraging them for reform.

it is also not biblical to start a rebellion IN the local church (which no one of us is doing!).

But it is biblical to expose sin and to encourage leadership for a change!

In love of course!

If they kick us out - and they did with many of us, because we started to talk to them or ask serious questions - they bring their judgement on their own heads, like the pharisees did by killing Christ!

In my opinion it is GOD who is speaking TO the EN leaders through this webside!

You will watch and see Justine, that he HUMBLE ones will prewail, but the proud guys, who build for themselves instead for Jesus will fall!

[robert_unknown]

when it comes to Josef, i do NOT believe that he became not bitter! he was no superman! But he had much time in prison to work through his bitterness, and to come closer to God.

We all are at this place right now. No one of us has chosen to be bitter or hurt. It happened, because false leaders abused us in the name of God.

We will work through this. We will come closer to God. We will see fruit of foregiveness (and believe me i pray and forgive every time for the guys who hurt me and who nearly destroyed my life!).

But it would be the WRONG 5thing to ignore the hurt and the bitterness and pretend everything is ok. I know - it would be easier for the bad guys! and in fact i know people who calculate with the foregiveness of their victims. Just to go out and do the same thing again to another person!

foregivenes is one thing!

But repentance is another thing!

You guys who are reading here! I know you are there and some of you KNOW that you are guilty! as i know it! you know what you have done! turn around and change! dont stay like you are! repend! for Christs sake!

THIS would bring REAL healing to EN!

[mcmstaff78]

Justyn is still engaging in making victimizers out of the victims. If EN is intent on changing, let there be a public apology and repentance. Let one of the leaders come here and apologize to the people who have been hurt. Let them outline how they are rectifying the mistakes and how they have changed their ways.

If you read Genesis you'll see that Joseph certainly appears to have been ready to lower the boom on his brothers, but was moved by some of their sorrow over what they had done to him. He was also moved by seeing his own full brother and knowing that his father was alive. Let the EN leaders express the kind of sorrow that Joseph's brothers did.

And as to "judging", that has to do with judging the motives of another's heart and being censorious toward others. However, it is not turning a blind eye to ongoing, systemic bad actions that hurt and damage innocent people. That Justyn at least intuitively understands this is evident in that he is here, ostensibly "judging" those who he believes are being "unforgiving" toward his friends at EN.

Yes, we must love those who annoy us. We must love our enemies. We must forgive from heart. But, as has been pointed out, this doesn't meant people shouldn't speak out. If they don't, they may have to answer to God for their silence.

"Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me." (Ezekiel 33:1-7)

[gilligan]

Preaching forgivenes, per se, without preaching restitution AND biblical accountability is dangerous. In the same spirit, any type of one-sided teachings (or the habit of quoting biblical scripture that may be unknowingly used as self-serving teachings) will corrupt the spiritual health of the congregation and turn them into religious fanatics.

Forgivenes AND restitution are pillars of real, everyday life. A church that exclusively spends most of their time and resources preaching "forgiveness" alone can be cultish. It needs to be balanced.

[jbkrems]

Gilligan, I completely agree. Amen.

[justyn_m]

Dear Friends,

Why not talk or communicate personally to those people who offended you and tell them that they hurt your feelings. There is another way to fix this than just posting some sentiments here. If you already did that then why don't you leave everything to God that He will be the one to convict that person (or those persons) of sin, righteousness, and judgement. I remember what Dr. Ravi Zaccharias said about airing sentiments to this effect, "If you want people to respect you then you should air your sentiments in a proper venue where you can get atleast some respect." Why don't you write them a formal letter or seat down with them to discuss things. After all, Jesus encourages us when it comes to matters of peace to “be at peace with one another” (Mk. 9:50); Peter mentioned “seek peace and pursue it” (1 Peter 3:11); Paul wrote, “preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3); “pursue the things which make for peace” (Rom. 14:19); and “live in peace with one another” (1 Thes. 5:13).

My friends, the more you post your sentiments here (be it valid or not) and refuse to discuss things properly with the concerned EN leaders then this act will only create disgrace to the body of Christ. Unbelievers will laugh at us because we cannot even resolve church conflicts properly.

Why don't you try contacting some of the Every Nation leaders or maybe Ptr. Steve Murrell. I believe he will find the time to listen to your concerns. Please, let's all maintain the bond of peace.

<font color="ff0000">Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you. Ephesians 5:31-32</font>

God bless!

<font color="0000ff">Justyn M.</font>

[robert_unknown]

" If you already did that then why don't you leave everything to God that He will be the one to convict that person (or those persons) of sin, righteousness, and judgement."

I will answer you with Phil Bonassos arguments and logic, when he was presenting ENs concept of covering to us in Europe:

"Everyone needs brothers who tell them their wrongdoings, who expose this, because everyone has a blind spot, which is bigger than the one at your car. Our ears are closed to God talking to us privately about our sins, because we dont want to hear it. Therefore we need brothers who correct us and who show us how crazy we are."

I hope that you can accept this explanation out of Phil Bonassos mouth, which is blessed with so much "wisdom, grace and enlightenment", that it qualified him for beeing an apostolic leader in EN! LOL

if you have followed our discussions, you will see that many of us have already tried to discuss this things with "concerned leaders". I think Phil Rosenthal even called from Africa to Manila to discuss serious matters with Steve Murell, but got no answer.

If Steve would live arond the corner, I would also try to talk to him. I have send emails to other leaders in EN, and have not received an answer until today (they are still busy working on it?? after more than 6 weeks?)...

what do you expect people to do? do you want us to be part of the cover-up as well?

if it would be so easy to find honest answers, no one would post anything here...

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 04, 2006)

[ginger1]

Justyn M, maybe you should sit down and talk to Steve Murell and ask him , how many people have tried contacting him and he deliberately ignore them. And even refused to answer questions from the VCF members.

Unbelievers will laughed at us, so its an upgrade from that we have become a stumbling block by airing the problem here ?
As I told you before , any unbelievers will STUMBLE at what EN and VCF did ! They are ALREADY LAUGHING and RIDICULING at what you guys are doing , all you have to do is READ ALL THE NEWS From Wall Street, Newspapers to Sports illustrated . YOU ARE ALREADY A LAUGHING STOCK of the UNBELIEVERS.

Factnet was not EVEN CREATED. Those unbelievers already have started warning people about you guys. You think Steve even listened ??? He did not listen back then , he won't even listen now. Heck he is not even listening to his own members.

Even Tom Siratnak told Steve Murrell , report to who ??? Rice and Phil ????

[ginger1]

A letter was also written to Dave Soto, Rice Brookes, Phil Bonasso and a COPY WAS GIVEN TO STEVE MURRELL PERSONALLY by Tom Siratnak. DID HE DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT ??? NONE.

Phillip Rosenthal, fax , email wrote a letter to Steve Murrell. A FORMAL LETTER. STEVE deliberately IGNORE him. Oh yes, I learned that he definitely received it. What was done ? NONE.

And you want to PRESERVE the Spirit of UNITY ? What UNITY ?

[ginger1]

Justyn M, here is a better idea. Preach to Steve Murrell about Dr. Ravi Zaccharias. Tell him communication is a two way street. And Steve Murrell should SEEK PEACE and PURSUE IT by beginning to open a discussion with the people who tried communication with the EN leadership. He should learn to lived in Peace with all the people with those who tried to communicate with him. Not Ignoring or slandering or gossiping about people who left or who does not agree with him or the EN leadership.

[robert_unknown]

communication is a two way street, as well as integrity, loyality, unity, love, respect, accountability, transparency...

the problem is that many churches, and EN, sees this things only as a street for the follower. they - offcourse - submit "to each other". but thats not enough and not biblical.

the problem in EN is, that leadership is solely based on position and NOT on relation and trust! thats - and i love maxwell about it - the most basic and the cheapest form of leadership.

because of this En leaders loose a lot of trust, that people gave them only based on the assumption that their leadership is a priori from God.

in times of turmoil and in times of difficulties this people draw their trust back.

EN has failed to build on this given trust. it has failed to build relations to the churchmembers and followers.

thats the root of the problem. and justyns advice will not change this. the step has to bee done from the EN leaderhsip. THEY are hte ones who have to react/ act now. they want trust? well - then they have to earn it!

many of us (and i know MANY people who see it this way) will NOT give trust to ANYONE for free anylonger.

trust is the real base for leadership. your authoritarian way of leadership has destroyed trust. so your leadership is on a weak ground.

[robert_unknown]

what i wrote is off course not a general statement valid for ALL EN churches. i dont know all EN churches, therefore i cannot say this. But its what i have seen happening in too many churches, and not only in EN. and its just my opinion.

[ginger1]

TRUTH.

John 4 Jesus talk to the Samaritan Woman.

15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."

17"I have no husband," she replied.

Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did.

Amazingly, the woman went back to Town AND Told everybody what Jesus said to her. This includes her sins without shame. Because of it, SHE WAS SET FREE.

For the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

There is another scripture that comes into my mind. "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

EN will be rocked again with scandal. Time and time again they will built on sand. Unfortunately those who stays with EN, They also will be pulled down with them.

[dust]

Justyn, you wrote: Those unbelievers already have started warning people about you guys. You think Steve even listened ???

Dust: Sadly, this happened to me several times...being WARNED by unbelievers. I tried to witness to my neighbor; she was open until she realized which church I went to. Because of a terrible experience her friends had suffered, she would NOT come to my bible study....I LOST MY WITNESS through association with Bethel World Outreach and it happened more than once.

You have come at us on forgiveness topic from many angles, and I don't believe you have heard or seen the heart here. As Ginger said, GO TALK TO STEVE. It is Every Nation who has brought division to the Body of Christ by rewriting the doctrine and manipulating the gospel, not repenting WHICH IS A KEY to Christian faith. THAT is the division.

During all historic times, someone has to hold up TRUTH. It's that simple, and I repeat Ginger stated, IT IS THE TRUTH THAT SETS US FREE.

I did learn something very valuable in Every Nation. If a topic keeps bugging me, or a person keeps irritating me, or there is something I can't get past, then I need to look at myself. This issue on forgiveness for example....I like it and I've asked God many times in past week WHO am I not forgiving, for I think this message is for me anyway, because I'm drawn to this thread. I can't look at this thread and not do what I can to repent myself. And, I probably have a long way to go myself in this area, and God is showing me this with many things in my life. God's message surely doesn't go wasted.

And, then we have a public display of the Amish forgiving a murderer this week in the states. So, Justyn, I ask you then who are you not forgiving...is it possible there is something for you too.

I still want to believe you are well meaning; or are just so invested in your association with Every Nation, that maybe this is the only way you can settle things, but maybe you need to forgive Steve M or someone in your circle. Maybe not, but you are drawn here as much as I am. God Bless you in this, and I think you've said all you need to....you are turning into an agitation. Let the Holy Spirit take over from here.

[ginger1]

Amazingly, its the NEWSPAPERS, Sports Illustrated , Wallstreet and News online , the UNBELIEVERS who HOLDS THE TRUTH and NOT this Ministry. They are the very first ones who are the ones that gave us WARNINGS and that Warning has been repeated time and time again, year after year after year.

WARNING that this MINISTRY, EN AND VCF CANNOT BE TRUSTED.
WARNING that this MINISTRY PRACTICE ABUSE, CONTROL. MANIPULATION AND COERCION.
WARNING that this ministry IS NOT OPEN ABOUT THEIR FINANCES like ANY MAINSTREAM MINISTRY.

The bible talks about if we are persecuted for RIGHTEOUSNESS SAKE , then it is OK. But if we are persecuted for things like this, manipulation, coercion, Untrustworthy, control, lack of transparency in regards to finances then VCF and EN have BROUGHT SHAME TO THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Then Justyn M is worried that the unbelievers would laugh at us ??? You are still worried about your reputation ?? (The root of Insecurity.) You worried that this FACTNET , people voicing their opinion, experiences become a stumbling block for the unbelievers ?

Those unbelievers CARED for the people who are entering into this ministry. Those unbelievers, are from the LORD. AND sent by GOD to warn people about EN aand VCF.
What is so sad is that its the Unbelievers who pointed the RIGHT AND TRUTHFUL WAY and NOT THIS VCF AND EN MINISTRY.

Those unbelievers are not the enemy. Scriptures told us that GOD CAN USED unbelievers to warn us. GOD does not discriminate people whom He will use. He can use unbelievers and believers, our only job is to learn if that is the Master's Voice.