Can a Person Ever Leave

[speakword2004]

Inspired by Tickies references to the Eagles, I took a good listen to their song "Hotel California" on the radio on Monday. The last verse struck me. I have been thinking a lot about my road to healing and recovery from coming out of EN recently. Many of us nod our heads at what he writes, but have not discussed it. Many of these questions have been themes I have pursued to a certain degree over the last 5 years:

Mirrors on the ceiling
Pink champagne on ice
And she said
We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
Relax said the nightman
We are programed to recieve
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave

My questions:

1. Can you ever leave completely?
2. Can the beast be killed and how?
3. Did I just check out or was it God that checked me out of the system?
4. I don't mean to bring the same questions up again and I know we have discussed this before, but I do know that part of my suffering within the church was of my own making. I stayed too long! How much did we become prisoners of our own device?
5. How much of our lives in the church was programmed and how was this done? The methods? The leadership strategies? The sermons?
6. Like the champagne, some of us put our hopes and dreams and personal skills on ice. How much of my life did I put on ice? Was it time wasted? Can God redeem it? Sometimes I feel like a chunk of 12 years was just terribly wasted. Or was it? Was there good that I got from it all?

[jayhernandez]

Hello Speakword, I want to take time to answer each one of these question when I get the chance. I'll come back to do this. At first glance it reminds me of a conversation I recently had and a Truth I understood myself.

I occured to me-(I told my friend)-that if my dispair here on Earth is to be with God then to be with God would be the despair of saying thank you and Holy Holy Holy- for years upon years. Anyway it's a long time.

It aslo occured to me that when I've done something wrong like a child ignorantly or sin like one who knows better- then because the HS is convicting me that I know. I know when I've done this and all the while my Spirit is groaning both in Good and in the Bad- my Spririt desires deeply to be with the Lord. This I take on and understand.

Finally I told my freind not associate (the checking in and checking out of a hotel) that despair with the despair of everyday living here on earth... as we wait patiently for his return.

In other words what I'm saying here is that we shouldn't associate our past like that of EN or anything else with persecution. Persecution will come and go. But it already known victory. This is the peace we have. Understand that all is won and the dispare is real. We have escaped- we have left egypt!

Having a heart for people here can be love- not a burden. Judging the soul and not a peoples belief CAN and will most likely bring on a burden. I have to continue checking myself for this because I can move from discussing principles and doctrinal differences and get personal. I don't want this. The dispair of wanting united is enough. This is why christian fellowship here on this side of glory is so wonderful. We can share in this greatness of the lord.

I wait to be home. I have no pillow here. Lots of friends but no pillow. Hey, I'm gonna leave! Glory! I've said Good night to the nightman adn called his bluff- already!

Jay the peacemaker

[40days40years]

Well if you can completely leave you would not be posting here (or reading either our old time lurker friends who don't post). Your asking the wrong people speak, they got us. As far as the sermons? hmmm the foundational sermons and teachings were powerful at keeping us in. The ordinary sermons I heard sunday to thursday were quite unimpressive. Gotta think about that one.

It's kind of like that star trek episode where this guy crashed on a planet and the aliens made a programmed world for him out of a novel he brought with him. Thinking they were being merciful to him the aliens built a world based on that novel. The novel was set in a gangster world with type cast characters and no matter what you did the game would start over. The star trek crew found the original guy that brought the novel dead in his bed of old age in a hotel and the guy left a note saying that the novel was poorly written, and basically insipid and he welcomed relief from it. Somehow Kirk and crew discovered the clue to getting out of the "benign" program named by studying the novel for clues. Hotel California, yeah!

[jayhernandez]

LOL not to sound super righteouse or anything.

Boy I crack myself up.

You have asked some serious questions and I meant what I said above- it's just that what I said can sound like I'm trying to give you advice rather then a testimony. I'll be getting back with you. Gotta Go. God Bless.

I our weakness we are made strong. It wasn't in vain. What is vain is what is not spoken! (is this in any of Solomons writtings?)


Jay the peacemaker

[speakword2004]

So the devil is in the detail?

[speakword2004]

So the devil is in the detail?

[40days40years]

Jay you said: It aslo occured to me that when I've done something wrong like a child ignorantly or sin like one who knows better- then because the HS is convicting me that I know. I know when I've done this and all the while my Spirit is groaning both in Good and in the Bad- my Spririt desires deeply to be with the Lord. This I take on and understand.

Well Jay this reminds me of the story my Dad told me. He was a small child in Alaska stealing a cookie out of a cookie jar and an earthquake hit, he said it put the fear of God in him for at least a little while. LOL

[40days40years]

Another question is do you want to leave? It is kind of like old people saying I'm glad I had the kids but I never would want to go through that again. Like Mattie said this experience is part of who we are. It is kind of funny how many, many years go by in a blink but those years from Maranatha and I am sure for others in MSI/EN last forever. If I could live 300 years in this present mortal state I know the memories from this movement would still be strong 300 years later and far more powerful than most.

[maranatha1984]

Speak
I have about five more parts left and this will be the "quote" for my last part. The reality is that we can NEVER leave.
I love the quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes of his experience in the US Civil War (he fought at Antietam where 40,000 young men were slaughtered in two hours).
He was 20 years old at the battle of Antietam and went on to be a US SUpreme Court Judge.

He wrote of his experience some 50 years later" We were burned as if by fire...'

None of us can escpate- in fact we are who we are because of MCM. No MCM no Ms Tok (I did not marry here at MCM but the circumstances led to us meeting)...
So we can "check out" but we can never leave..

[jayhernandez]

I've literally left. Emothionally I've left as well. In memory...what is that? I've had worse! What is regret to the glory of God? No regret here and no regret there. I speak from my experience with EN but there is nothing new under the sun and to be glorified in Christ we are bound together in his testimony. We will check out and will leave. Consider it done! It is finished!

Jay the peacemaker

[lc_20]

Jay,
Thank you for your post. No regrets. Glory to God.

When I hear old maranatha people talking about the good old days... saying yes there was control and yes their was bad theology. But, socially, those were the best days of my life where lifelong friendships where made... I think that it the difference between maranatha and msi/en. There was nothing good about msi/en. No lifelong relationships made, no fond memories of the good old days... just memories of studying, traveling, serving with people so competitive to be accepted by the top leaders that they didn't have time to build relationships with each other.

I thank God that I did leave. I give all glory for what little mess of my life I have to God along. Msi/en will never get any credit for who I am today. I post simply to help those who are trying to get out. I know many people who turned their backs on the lies and walked away to healthier environments. It can be done, you can leave. You don't have to be the person they tried to make you be.

[lc_20]

84,
If the point of your blogging is to say that one can never escape maranatha/msi/en, then I am done reading. You have an opportunity to lead people to truth or to lead people into oppression with your testimony. To tell them they will never escape is in my mind to tell them they will never be free in Christ. Just not true. There are war vets who focus their lives on their war experiences. There are others who come home and build new lives with better healthier experiences. I choose to build a new healthier life not on the foundation of maranatha/msi/en but on the foundation of true Christ that I am getting to know better from day to day.

[40days40years]

Yes this is interesting.

[dust]

Speak:
This may sound strange, but I don't regret my time in EN.

1. I threw myself into the bible because the Purple book just wasn't enough and because I needed to prove they were wrong. My gut was always jumping. So EN motivated me TOWARDS TRUTH.
2. We made many friends that we still have....many who have gone through what we did, including pastors and leaders. They will be lifelong friends.
3. We now have an opportunity to be there for people when they have questions/need healing/need truth.
4. Our faith/relationship in God grew much STRONGER during the adversity.
5. God used the experience to work out some of the weakness of our flesh, like desire for self-promotion, pride, ambition.
6. We stand today so SECURE in the TRUTH.
7. There will be more God does with this. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I know part of it is being here, helping others.

Speak, I don't know your story. I was deeply hurt; I felt devastated. Betrayal on many fronts. But, once I removed myself out of the picture, I started to think, "how does God feel? So THIS is what Jesus died for. Well the offense to HIm is a lot more than the offense to ME, and I drew strength from this. Jesus still reigns victoriously. This helped me keep perspective and not take things so personally.

Eventually, I discovered that my story was everyone's story. For a long time, I didn't know that. Then I found my way here. And, it was the final straw. So if you were here from the beginning, you helped us make a decision to leave and we are grateful.

We can never fully understand the ways of God and His arrangements. We try to box him up and He is full of surprises.

I don't know if I would fully understand "freedom in Christ" had it not been for EN. It's like sometimes you don't know how healthy feels until you get over an illness and you can appreciate it. I can much more appreciate what Jesus did.

Can you ever leave? No, because you can't leave the BODY of Christ, and there are many people in EN who really do make up the Body, who need our help in seeing truth. I have much compassion for them (individually). I'm not talking about the "LEADERS". I refer to the sheep, although this does include some pastors.

God has placed you here, and you probably won't know how much of the Body you have helped until later.

I have seen a brighter picture evolving...God has shown me something in the Spirit that has removed my anger. I have never felt more peace or joy in my life. It's one of the reasons I wanted to become more transparent here (let you all know I'm a woman) because it is easier for me to move in the prophetic this way....Take heart, and believe for the truth that is coming...

[j2theperson]

I think the answer would depend on how deeply an individual had been effected by EN.

I believe I have both checked out and left EN. But, as I have posted elsewhere on this message board, my brief sojourn with EN was the continuation of a prior religious environment and experience. EN did not touch me to my core so it doesn't affect me now. That earlier experience, however, did profoundly hurt me and, therefore, is going to haunt me and effect me for the rest of my life.

[annelewis]

Somehow, in reading the other answers, I don't think we are quite agreeing on what it is, exactly, that is being left. God? The body of Christ? Our past? Theological, cognitive and behavioral frameworks that keep one tied to a cult?

I always thought Hotel California was a song about a lifestyle driven by addiction. Having seen people live through the hell that is addiction, I really can't equate what I went through 16 years ago (and can't really remember that well) with that daily, ever present reality of addiction.

I don't think there's a blanket yes or no answer as to whether or not you can leave the whole experience of it behind. We all have different degrees of emotional pathology that got us stuck there in the first place. Some of us may have been addicted, others of us were just sucked in by some unparseable combination of youth, pride and deception. Once one or all of those factors lost a sufficient amount of grip on us, we left.

[speakword2004]

Dust

I find your comment on keeping perspective and not taking things personally very very interesting. A chat with my wife on the same topic took up 4 hours one night 10 days ago. Hmmm . . . I think this one deserves a whole thread on itself. I am sure someone like John R would be able to write volumes on that.

J2 I find your comment about EN not touching you to the core interesting as well. In a previous chapter Tickie describes how one night he went back and found the Tickie deep down or at the back, that he was a few years before. Was that the core of Tik? As to your previous experience, did it perhaps set you up for your EN experience or were you more prepared this time. Or did they appeal to another part of your or attempt to harm a part of you the other experience did not?

[ontheroad]

1. Can you ever leave completely?
<font color="0077aa">That's an interesting question whose answer is probably subject to interpretation. I think that yes, we can leave (as most of us here have already physically left). Maybe the question is - can it leave us? Can the emotional/spiritual damage leave us? Yes, I believe that it can. God can heal anything, though it may be a long road.</font>

2. Can the beast be killed and how?
<font color="0077aa">In this analogy, what is the "beast"?</font>

3. Did I just check out or was it God that checked me out of the system?
<font color="0077aa">I 100% believe God checked me out of the system. There was NO way I was strong enough or clear enough to do it on my own. He pulled me out. I often wonder why it didn't happen sooner. Why did it go on for so long? It's one of the questions I'll ask when I get to heaven if I haven't already learned by then. </font>

4. I don't mean to bring the same questions up again and I know we have discussed this before, but I do know that part of my suffering within the church was of my own making. I stayed too long! How much did we become prisoners of our own device?
<font color="0077aa">I know I caused suffering as well endured suffering. This is one of the hardest parts for me - the suffering I caused others in my ignorance and confused, beaten-down state of obediance to leadership. I also contributed to my own suffering. In a sense, I did contribute to my own prison.</font>

5. How much of our lives in the church was programmed and how was this done? The methods? The leadership strategies? The sermons?
<font color="0077aa">I've wondered this, too. Along the same lines, how much damage perpetrated by leadership was calculated and purposeful versus how much was done out of their own delusion and ignorance?</font>

6. Like the champagne, some of us put our hopes and dreams and personal skills on ice. How much of my life did I put on ice? Was it time wasted? Can God redeem it? Sometimes I feel like a chunk of 12 years was just terribly wasted. Or was it? Was there good that I got from it all?
<font color="0077aa">I was at my church for 12+ years like you were. I have told my husband that apart from my lasting friendships with two wonderful people, I wish I'd never set foot in that awful place. Those are the only redeeming factors to me. I lost all my other friendships. I was confused and deluded for 12+ years. I very nearly lost my marriage, health, sanity, and finances. What good came of it? I feel like it was a completely wasted 12+ years. Having said all that, I also know that God sees a bigger picture that I cannot see.</font>

[dust]

Speak: I DID take things personally while they were happening. And, I still find myself having moments of "shaking off" what I Iearned. And, I hope I didn't in any way diminish anyone else's experiences or personal journey. But, one thing I have to believe is that God is always bigger than any false ministry.

[matt_hatter]

lc said:
84,
If the point of your blogging is to say that one can never escape maranatha/msi/en, then I am done reading

I am not speaking for Tik, I will let him do that himself. What his comment meant to me is this: I can no more escape my past involvement with MCM any more than I can escape my my past with little league baseball, or my Dad's 2 tours to Vietnam, etc. Life experiences and decisions are all a part of us. I cannot say "my former life" as a MCM pastor. It is a part of me whether I want to acknowledge it or not. Those years helped mold me into what I am today, maybe no more than little league, but they were a part of me.

Don't think of the term 'escape' with negative conotations: It happened, it is part of me, and I would never change a thing about it. When I finally realized this, peace began to bloom in my life.

We may be able to convince Tik to write an epiloge, as Jeremiah states to show a "future and a hope". Many, many of us have gone on to enjoy fruitful and productive lives!

[dust]

What Matt said reflects a lot of what I was trying to say....

[ontheroad]

Good explanation, Matt. I think that you are most likely correct in interpreting what Tik said. We can indeed escape physically. We can also healed by God from it. But it is, unfortunately, still a big part of our past and of who we are today. We can't go on as if it never happened, but we can recover from what did happen.

[upcase20]

I had friends and friendships there, and I was more deeply involved in the leadership than most, but when I left, they disasociated me. On the occasion when I saw members outside of the church, they wouldn't even speak to me. . . .Who needs friends like that ? Bye.

[ontheroad]

"Who needs friends like that ?"

You're right, Upcase. It hurt to lose them, but if they act like that, they are either not true friends, or deceived ones.

[jesusisawesome]

Upcase, your story IS my story, and the story of so many others. It is truth twisted, where the vision becomes more important than the relationships, when in reality the relationships are what the vision is "supposed" to be all about. Jesus died for us because of God's deep passion and love for us. He sets us free from all failure and connects us intimately with the Father heart of God.

[robert_unknown]

a big problem for me is the thought that i could have done so many other things in the last 10 years.

but studying and building up an own business is not possible now anymore, when you have to support a family.

i feel that i have been robbed of my best years. there has always been the ministry-promise as a "carote and stick". i have set many years aside to get prepared for it, and i think i did well. but with the blink of an eye everything is away, and the only chance to get back into it is by starting all over again with the submitting, serving, yes-saying, money and timewasting. and there is no security, that you will be accepted anyhow. and even if you are... is another big cult swallowing EN again? all my courses, biblechools, experiences and the ordination from HP is worth nothing at the moment. who tells me that all the EN bibleschools, pastoraltraings and else will be worth anything in ten years?

the biggest pain that i have is the fact, that i have lost 10 years of my life!

[maranatha1984]

IC20:If the point of your blogging is to say that one can never escape maranatha/msi/en, then I am done reading. You have an opportunity to lead people to truth or to lead people into oppression with your testimony. To tell them they will never escape is in my mind to tell them they will never be free in Christ. Just not true. There are war vets who focus their lives on their war experiences. There are others who come home and build new lives with better healthier experiences. I choose to build a new healthier life not on the foundation of maranatha/msi/en but on the foundation of true Christ that I am getting to know better from day to

83: You misunderstand me IC. I am more free now than I was before I could spell Maranatha. I have complete freedom in Christ and through Him I can do all things. My road to this freedom led right through the forest of MCM. I speak for myself but the Tik of 2006 would not be here and be as he is without MCM.
My own feeling is that I cannot escape MCM anymore than I can escape being the free knuckle-headed person that I am.
IC we have to each deal with the past as best we can. So I will give you the morale of the blog
1) Anyone, who was over 16,in MCM was a co-conspirator in their entrapment (this is not to assuage the guilt or sin of leadership)
2)Who we are now is a product of that experience, trying to wipe it out would be like trying to wipe out the past that formed us
3)We who were in MCM can be transformed by the Grace of God into something different into His likeness

I am NOT trapped BY MCM, I am NOT a prisoner of MCM, I would LAUGH in Bob's face if he tried any of the stuff I record. BUT I AM A PRODUCT of my experience of MCM- and in fact I pray that God will use my experience as a warning to those about to enter a SC, as a beacon to those who might be trapped by their past immersion in MCM, or perhaps help one person leave EN or a SC.

I will say this- anyone who is "running or hiding" from their MCM, IMHO is making a big mistake. I think one must confront it, expose it for what it was (which is what I am trying to do in a feeble way) and then get on with life- or maybe linger to help others....

Matt "knows" who I am and can vouch that I am not a prisoner spiritually or emotionally- but like Oliver Wendell Holmes I was burned as if by fire.

I told one person in an e-mail exchange that my father had an old war wound. Mostly it does not hurt, sometimes in cold weather it hurts, and when he takes a shower he can see it. But it does not affect his day- but he is the most anti war person you will ever meet!

Well there you have it I could have saved writing the planned 38 parts of my Blog-----------

[maranatha1984]

Matt: can no more escape my past involvement with MCM any more than I can escape my my past with little league baseball, or

84: As always Matt says it better than I could...

[sameo]

Thanks 84'---well said.

SameO

[dust]

84,
I really appreciate your response. You used the term "co-conspirator" of our own entrapment. I like to use the word, "co-creative" but it's the same thing.

Freedom for ME personally meant repenting for the simple flesh in me that wanted to be a part of the vision....and all that went with it.
My husband has his own reasons for repenting and I hope he will post them here. (he is a poster). I am an over-achiever, throw myself 100% into whatever I do. But, in this case, my passion was PASSION GONE FOOLISH. I invested so much that I didn't want to LOSE my investment, in people, in relationships, in vision and in ministry position.

God shook me up and told me what to put down. I was trying to hold doors open that God was closiing. That's when it gets tough.
And, I was a major people pleaser.

Does my repenting mean they didn't have their part? NO, of course not. But, it is always important to clear your own eyes. This worked for me.

[jesusisawesome]

Robert: the biggest pain that i have is the fact, that i have lost 10 years of my life!

JIA: Robert, not to in anyway minimize your lost time or pain, but hopefully to encourage you, I don't believe it has been wasted time for you. If you look at the life of Joseph, he did not want to be betrayed by his brothers, thrown into a pit or end up in prison. However, as Joseph said, "God meant it for good". God can redeem the years that seem to be wasted. If you look at Joseph's continued life story, all of the trauma he went through prepared him for the future. I have to believe that somehow God is going to take this and turn it for good on your behalf. He's done it in my life. I can now look back and thank God for my pain and what I walked through, although there was a time when it all felt very wasted. Ultimately, however, He is in charge of my destiny. Man makes His plans, but the Lord orders his steps. God works very redemptively in everything that we walk through, whether good or bad, as we continue seeking to love and acknowledge Him in all that we do.

[lc_20]

84: Thanks for your clarification... sorry if I forced your hand when it comes to the next part of your story. The idea that the scars from EN are permanent brings tears to my eyes. Remember, I and many others here have not been out long. Maybe I am trying to run and hide from the damage done. Maybe, I still live in hope that the scars are not permanent. Maybe, I just hate msi/en so much right now that I just don't want to believe that they had any lasting influence over me... maybe, in time, I will see things the way you see them.

[j2theperson]

***Speakword: J2 I find your comment about EN not touching you to the core interesting as well. In a previous chapter Tickie describes how one night he went back and found the Tickie deep down or at the back, that he was a few years before. Was that the core of Tik? As to your previous experience, did it perhaps set you up for your EN experience or were you more prepared this time. Or did they appeal to another part of your or attempt to harm a part of you the other experience did not?***

I wrote a bit about my life here (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21902.html?1151397603#POST305187). Yes, my upbringing very much set me up for joining EN by (1) causing me to accept harsh, painful, and unloving words/treatment as, not only normal, but also Christian, and by (2) teaching the Bible in such a disorganized and, at times, untruthful fashion that I was open to EN's style of Bible "study" to a degree I otherwise would not have been. (3) During the entire course of my childhood I was put down and belittled and told that, despite all of my talents and good points, I would fail miserably in life if I did not do exactly what societal norms and those in authority over me told me to do. But, even if I did follow their instructions, the most they promised me was that I would live a mind-numbingly boring existence with no joy and no fulfillment and no love--but at least I would have money. EN appealled to me because they seemed to offer a better promise. Yes, just like before, I was still required to submit fully, but they promised that if I did so, God would not simply give me money, He would make me rich, and He would make me famous, and He would blessed me with the desires of my heart. My reasoning could be summed up like this: If I *had* to sign my life away it was much more rational to sign it away to an organization that promised me everything instead of to people who promise me nothing.

That is why I can't say EN affected my core. I was deeply hurt and screwed up long before I ever heard of EN, and nothing they did to me even began to reach the level of what my childhood teachers and leaders did to me.

In a way, EN for me ended up being a constructive experienced. Their control and manipulation was far more blatant than what I had previously experienced and it helped me see, for the first time, just how much I had been controlled and misused by the people in my past. Facing and rejecting the abuses by EN set me on the path to facing and rejecting the abuses by my childhood leaders.

But, eventhough I am aware of and dealing with the problems caused by my childhood religious leaders, I don't think I will ever be able to completely leave them behind. When you have suffered emotional and spiritual abused for the 20 most formative years of your life how can you expect to ever be entirely healthy?

[annelewis]

Well, that's the question now, isn't it. Is it even possible to be "entirely healthy"? I'm thinking not.

[upcase20]

robert_unknown: I agree with you. All that training, EN training, pastoral schools, bibleschools . . . "What is it worth in ten years?" How about "What is it worth the day you get out?" "What is it worth today?" Few people outside of EN can identify with the doctrine that is taught there. . . . . annelewis, you know this too.

[chosen_vessel]

I believe it is harder for individuals who were actually introduced to Christianity through the MS/EN environment to make a full recovery from abusive situations they may have encountered. Both my wife and I were introduced to the Lord in churches we attended years before we came into the MS/EN world (which we were apart of for 12 years before a very awkward situation compelled us to leave).

While the MS/EN outreach to the college campus has produced some good fruit in many situations, the methodology of some ministers has also done its share of damage. After all 18, 19, 20 year college kids are very impressionable (I know I was).

Sad to say we have witnessed many of those same people who were saved on the campuses in the late 80’s and throughout the 90’s struggle as they come to grips with what has transpired in the MS/EN world within the past year. The codependent relationships espoused within that ministry have obviously had a detrimental effect on the members dealing with the problems at hand (add that to the fact that EN is the primary vehicle that has exposed them to God).

My advice to anyone in this situation: do whatever you can to develop an additional spiritual frame of reference by visiting other churches. My pre-Maranatha/MS/EN pastor always started his sermons with the following admonishment: “No matter what church you may attend, if the pastor stays with the Word, you stay with the pastor; if the pastor leaves the Word, you leave the pastor.”

Even during my time in leadership in MS, I always tried to live by these words from my old pastor. If there was something that I felt uneasy or unsure about in the church, I simply took my time to pray it through. At times, the senior leaders of the church I attended thought that I was being stubborn and independent. Though I found these accusations painful, I put them aside because I felt the Lord wanted us to remain. Eventually I was asked to do something that crossed the line and literally forced us to break off and attend another church.

Despite the pain of the situation, I am pleased to say that we have no regrets about leaving the MS/EN movement.

[chosen_vessel]

I believe it is harder for individuals who were actually introduced to Christianity through the MS/EN environment to make a full recovery from abusive situations they may have encountered. Both my wife and I were introduced to the Lord in churches we attended years before we came into the MS/EN world (which we were apart of for 12 years before a very awkward situation compelled us to leave).

While the MS/EN outreach to the college campus has produced some good fruit in many situations, the methodology of some ministers has also done its share of damage. After all 18, 19, 20 year college kids are very impressionable (I know I was).

Sad to say we have witnessed many of those same people who were saved on the campuses in the late 80’s and throughout the 90’s struggle as they come to grips with what has transpired in the MS/EN world within the past year. The codependent relationships espoused within that ministry have obviously had a detrimental effect on the members dealing with the problems at hand (add that to the fact that EN is the primary vehicle that has exposed them to God).

My advice to anyone in this situation: do whatever you can to develop an additional spiritual frame of reference by visiting other churches. My pre-Maranatha/MS/EN pastor always started his sermons with the following admonishment: “No matter what church you may attend, if the pastor stays with the Word, you stay with the pastor; if the pastor leaves the Word, you leave the pastor.”

Even during my time in leadership in MS, I always tried to live by these words from my old pastor. If there was something that I felt uneasy or unsure about in the church, I simply took my time to pray it through. At times, the senior leaders of the church I attended thought that I was being stubborn and independent. Though I found these accusations painful, I put them aside because I felt the Lord wanted us to remain. Eventually I was asked to do something that crossed the line and literally forced us to break off and attend another church.

Despite the pain of the situation, I am pleased to say that we have no regrets about leaving the MS/EN movement.

[miltietoast]

Tik talked about the journey in contrast to the destination-ie many different paths to same destination. The journey is a blast even with detours,bumps in the road,flat tires, and yes even wrecks.Jesus in his immeasurable wisdom can pull it all together for His glory and our growth.I honestly believe He has never been interested in my "comfort" (I actually take comfort in that)I do not like all the opportunities He gives me to forgive,overlook,cover,bare(sp?).I have been quite proficient at ignoring His nudgings, sometimes for years. The comfort comes because I know I am His son because he disciplines me, if he did not correct me then I would be a <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> child and unloved.Don't sweat the small stuff,p.s. it is all small stuff. Shew, I need some of Latrobes Pennsylvania's finest.

[jayhernandez]

By His stripes we are healed! Just a verse that came to me. So many to choose from. It'll do someone good- I'm sure of it! =)

Jay

[hewrote]

%OLIVES( ), a DOVE (Holy Spirit) and KNEW ( )%

Genesis 8:11
When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.

STAY

THE WATER HAS RECEDED

[jonmoseley]

Starting back with the original topic... A R E Y O U N U T S ??? What planet are you on?

Even though I am personal friends with a great many Every Nation people in Brett Fuller's church in Sterling, Virginia, when I wanted to leave, I SIMPLY STOPPED GOING.

What on earth are you talking about?

So completely absurd is your question and the implication that your points are nothing short of SLANDER.... literally.

Both legally and Biblically you have SLANDERED an instrument of God's work on this Earth.

I belonged to Maranatha to the bitter end and then Grace Covenant Church under Brett Fuller, which was later renamed as Metro Morning Star, part of now Every Nation.

I stopped going around 1993 because Brett was not answering my questions or dealing with the issues THEN in my life.

Even back then in 1993, fresh out of Maranatha, I simply stopped showing up one day and NOBODY even CONTACTED me about it. Even though I had been meeting with Brett Fuller regularly in his office about my questions and concerns -- about God, not the church -- when I stopped showing up Brett NEVER contacted me at all. The Administrator was a VERY DEAR FRIEND of mine, David, and he certainly would have followed through to contac me. NOT A PEEP. I simply went my way, and they went theirs.

I found Brett Fuller's church again in 2003, now called Metro Morning Star and part of Morning Star/Every Nation, and I started going once again until the end of 2005.

As a result, MANY PEOPLE KNEW ME VERY WELL, including at least half of the leadership.

The leaders knew of me, knew I was there, etc. I was assigned to a home group led by a person who went back 20 years in the church, and who had known me VERY well personally from 1985 through 1993.

But when I wanted to leave, what did I do?

I simply drove my car to a different church that Sunday.

PRESTO! MAGIC! I LEFT!

I just STOPPED GOING on day, and that was that.

And no one has even asked me about it since, more than a year later.

Your post - and the implication behind it -- is a filthy and disgusting lie, a satanic attack upon a church.

GO LOOK AT MATTHEW 18:15-17. Because you have plainly not obeyed the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF in your concern (or you would have learned that you can walk out any time you want, and would never have slandered EN on this Board) YOU YOURSELF ARE IN SIN.

How can you claim to accuse a church of being unbiblical while YOU YOURSELF VIOLATE THE BIBLE?

[jonmoseley]

To further explain/define my post, you have started this thread NOT under Marantha, but under Morning Star / Every Nation. The question you have posed is thus wheher anyone can leave MORNING STAR/EVERY NATION.... NOT whether someone can leave Maranatha.

If the question is whether you can get over yourself, the answer is obvious. By your own choice to swim in your grievances the answer is no.

As to those who talk about whether or not MS/EN was the right church to help them get over their abusive past, GOOD GOD what unreasonable nonsense is this?

Walk into 99% of the churches of America. They are going to give you a nice, polite handshake and a warmed-over, superficial sermon.

WHAT CHURCH do you imagine is going to do all that you expect?

Like a child who cannot forgive his parent for not being perfect, not being God, you are expecting something from MSI/EN that NO OTHER CHURCH would be expected to live up to.

[speakword2004]

Jon

If you left so brilliantly what the heck are you doing here?

[jonmoseley]

To further explain/define my post, you have started this thread NOT under Marantha, but under Morning Star / Every Nation. The question you have posed is thus wheher anyone can leave MORNING STAR/EVERY NATION.... NOT whether someone can leave Maranatha.

If the question is whether you can get over yourself, the answer is obvious. By your own choice to swim in your grievances the answer is no.

As to those who talk about whether or not MS/EN was the right church to help them get over their abusive past, GOOD GOD what unreasonable nonsense is this?

Walk into 99% of the churches of America. They are going to give you a nice, polite handshake and a warmed-over, superficial sermon.

WHAT CHURCH do you imagine is going to do all that you expect?

Like a child who cannot forgive his parent for not being perfect, not being God, you are expecting something from MSI/EN that NO OTHER CHURCH would be expected to live up to.

[freedom43]

Welcome to Factnet, Jon -- I am sure there are some people on this board who may hold unforgiveness in their hearts. And, I think most would agree that no church is perfect. But, in my perspective, the church is not my mother/father -- God is.

But, if Maranatha/MSI/EN were parents, say foster parents, I would compare them to abusive foster parents and would do my utmost to prevent any other kids being fostered by them. I would not want them to abuse and hurt any more kids than they have already hurt. Personally, I think that is what this board is about. Not venting unforgiveness or bitterness. Some are here trying to change the abusive foster parents -- others are just trying to prevent them from hurting others. Some both. Some are here to reconnect with old friends and understand and find healing. To understand how they let themselves be a part of such a controlling group, etc. and to move past it. Some are here because they think the abusive foster parents need to be held accountable.

[dust]

Jonmoseley writes:Like a child who cannot forgive his parent for not being perfect, not being God, you are expecting something from MSI/EN that NO OTHER CHURCH would be expected to live up to.

Dust: There are parents who are taken away from their children. And, if those parents continue to keep having children and abusing them for their personal gain, it will be stopped. If you were the oldest child, would you not go in to protect the younger children and would you not seek out some way to understand, heal, and bring an end to the cycle of abuse.

Of course you would. Playing with the Word of God is no light matter. Playing with people's faith and twisting it up to confuse a young Christian's walk with God is SEVERE. "Better a milstone around your neck." I caution you to think what your motives are here. Are you completely dismissing EN/MCM whatever you came from as just another same ol same ol Christian church with problems like every other church? Or, are you drawn here because you haven't really left or it hasn't left you?

And, if it hasn't left you, that's very understandable and you may be in the right place to dialogue here and gain an understanding of the true scope of this ministry.

[speakword2004]

John

I have read through all your posts here and elsewhere and I must state that you seem to have a need to defend EN leaders. Perhaps you still idolise these people. Why else would you be here? To defend them against lunatics like us? I am sure they could defend themselves if they had the guts to.

Instead they choose to hide behind cover-ups and lie and manipulate their congregations. Matt 18 is not relevant to church discipline in the context of church government in the way you would choose it.

By the same token, if you just managed to stop going to this church that you mentioned above and just left it behind perhaps you might want to stop defending it and come back time and time again to do so. I am not asking for your reasons in leaving it.

You quote Matt 18 vv 15-17 with such certainty and yet you are glibly able to ignore the preceding sentiments of the Lord in the same chapter where he warns that we should not cause the little ones to stumble and reveals His heart as the shepherd-King who will leaving the 99 go after the lost sheep.

You have mentioned a few times that no one contacted you and you just left and that was that. Hmmm . . .that's food for thought. I suggest you protest too much.

In communication with many of my brethren here and elsewhere overt the last two years I have seen an ever-increasing desire amongst people not only forgive the stupdity, arrogance and abusiveness of people who once led them, but a great thirst to understand what had caused that, what had motivated this all and how best to prevent it, end it and help others not to suffer the same.

BTW You are not the only person here who has experience of both Maranatha and EN.

[jonmoseley]

I have read through all your posts here and elsewhere and I must state that you seem to have a need to defend EN leaders.

ANSWER: I will defend anyone -- including you -- against LIES and unfair attacks.

I am not motivated by anything other than the dishonesty of YOUR statements.

And, as I posted elsewhere, I am most offended by your attempts to win theological arguments by slandering those with different points of view, RATHER THAN honestly discussing and debating the Bible openly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matt 18 is not relevant to church discipline in the context of church government in the way you would choose it.

Answer: On the contrary, the standard is HIGHER when talking about church government. The New Testament clearly warns us not to receive an accusation against a leader lightly, but with MORE witnesses than required merely against a brother in Matthew 18:15-17.

So, by your own admission, I take it, you have not complied with either Matt 18:15-17 OR the higher standards required for accusations against leaders.

Finally, you say:
Instead they choose to hide behind cover-ups and lie and manipulate their congregations.

While you might say that about MCM -- though not everything said there is true either -- you cannot say that about EN/MSI, I don't care how hard you try.

And even with the South African pastor's adultery, IT WAS HIS PEOPLE'S JOINING EN THAT LED TO DANIEL'S REMOVAL! Had His People remained independent, Daniel would probably still be in ministry there now.

The complaints include Daniels LYING TO OTHER PASTORS. How can someone who has been LIED to be guilty of a cover-up?

Furthermore, taking time to carefully investigate what is the truth is not a cover-up. It is obligatory. Again, you cannot receive an accusation against a pastor lightly. You must figure out WHO is telling the truth.

And finally, I reject the notion that the congregation's idle curiosity and tickling their ears with stories is the most important objective. If a leader has sinned, it must be immediately corrected (when known for certain), and if appropriate he should be removed from ministry, as Daniels was indeed removed. (HINT: WHEN exactly did His People join EN?)

HOWEVER IT IS NOT URGENT that the congregation be distracted from seeking God and worshipping God by being told a Soap Opera story.

The minister should be immediately removed, when things are known with certainty.

But there is NO corresponding obligation or need to tell a Soap Opera to the congregation.

SO, on the facts, your accusations are FALSE. You are the one who should repent of making accusations about cover-ups and the like.

[jonmoseley]

Remember: Matthew 18:15-17 says that if your brother repents (when confronted) then you have won your brother. The later, more serious steps, appear to be in contrast to that. SO it appears clear that YOU MAY NOT "tell it to the congregation" when a brother receives correction and REPENTS. The steps commanded by Jesus Christ appear to be mutually exclusive, in my opinion. One may EITHER win back his brother or if that fails THEN tell it to the congregation.

So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Compare this to how Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery.

Again, as I understand it, EN did not start TALKING to His People until around 1998, and His People did not join EN until several years later.

Unlike existing relationships, it would take FURTHER time for EN to get to know His People's systems and people.

So, EN TOOK ACTION to get rid of Paul Daniels when they reasonably became aware of his actions (hidden by his deceit) and they could investigate and know what was the truth.

So how is this a "cover up"?

[jonmoseley]

Remember: Matthew 18:15-17 says that if your brother repents (when confronted) then you have won your brother. The later, more serious steps, appear to be in contrast to that. SO it appears clear that YOU MAY NOT "tell it to the congregation" when a brother receives correction and REPENTS. The steps commanded by Jesus Christ appear to be mutually exclusive, in my opinion. One may EITHER win back his brother or if that fails THEN tell it to the congregation.

So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Compare this to how Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery.

Again, as I understand it, EN did not start TALKING to His People until around 1998, and His People did not join EN until several years later.

Unlike existing relationships, it would take FURTHER time for EN to get to know His People's systems and people.

So, EN TOOK ACTION to get rid of Paul Daniels when they reasonably became aware of his actions (hidden by his deceit) and they could investigate and know what was the truth.

So how is this a "cover up"?

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon wrote:
"Walk into 99% of the churches of America. They are going to give you a nice, polite handshake and a warmed-over, superficial sermon.

WHAT CHURCH do you imagine is going to do all that you expect?"

my comment: Congratulations, Jon. You have sipped many years of the kool-aid supplied by EN. You are able to regurgiate mantras and teachings imparted as part of their spiritual DNA.

Have another glass... sip well.

[dust]

Jon,
If you left over ten years ago, why are you concerning yourself with Paul Daniel, His People Church, etc. Something isn't looking right here.

You are painting the people here as nothing more than bitter wth an axe to grind. Let me quote you something written JUST YESTERDAY by one of our major contributors:

Ulyankee wrote: But I have to ALWAYS REMEMBER that opposing this doctrine of demons does not mean that those who espouse it are the "enemy." No, they may be LOST, BROKEN, BOUND, DECEIVED, but not in and of themselves the enemy. If I truly have the heart of Christ, the Holy Spirit living in me, then I am bound to love them too.

[jonmoseley]

Remember: Matthew 18:15-17 says that if your brother repents (when confronted) then you have won your brother. The later, more serious steps, appear to be in contrast to that. SO it appears clear that YOU MAY NOT "tell it to the congregation" when a brother receives correction and REPENTS. The steps commanded by Jesus Christ appear to be mutually exclusive, in my opinion. One may EITHER win back his brother or if that fails THEN tell it to the congregation.

So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Compare this to how Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery.

Again, as I understand it, EN did not start TALKING to His People until around 1998, and His People did not join EN until several years later.

Unlike existing relationships, it would take FURTHER time for EN to get to know His People's systems and people.

So, EN TOOK ACTION to get rid of Paul Daniels when they reasonably became aware of his actions (hidden by his deceit) and they could investigate and know what was the truth.

So how is this a "cover up"?

[dust]

Hey Brick, good to see you! Sorry to interrupt thread.

[jonmoseley]

I am concerning myself with Paul Daniels to EXCLUDE the possibility that ANY of the criticisms against EN are accurate. The ONLY example that might be cited is IN FACT an example where EN stepped in and CORRECTED the situation, after EN took over His People. Without EN, Paul Daniels might still be in ministry now.

[dust]

You are Naive. Don't think EN was not warned of Paul Daniel's MANY YEARS of escapades, BEFORE THEY SIGNED THEM UP... some far worse than what has been reported yet on this board. They were overlooked because His People was a <font color="119911">POT OF GOLD</font> Then, they HAD to deal with it, which I don't think they minded so much....because they had the churches in their control by then.

[jonmoseley]

You begin by confessing your unbiblical approach. This is not about what anyone THINKS... it is about what is TRUE.

If you want to discuss imaginary opinions, then let's all watch a Soap Opera and talk about what we think happens in scenes NOT shown on the television in these imaginary people's lives.

DO YOU HAVE PROOF that EN knew about PROOF (not accusations) of Daniels' adultery much earlier.

I DO HAVE PROOF that EN *REMOVED* Paul Daniels from the ministry.

YOU: Speculation.

ME: Proof. EN took action.

Furthermore, if your accusation of a motive of a pot of gold is true, then WHY NOT ALL THE MORE take His People AND THEN GET RID OF PAUL DANIELS????

Your accusation of a motive that His People is a pot of gold would support the CONTRARY theory (if there were one, which I say only to show that your argument is not persuasive) that EN took over His People and then FABRICATED accusations against Paul Daniels in order to grab this "pot of gold."

Why would EN want to get a "pot of gold" from His People and LEAVE Paul Daniels in position?

[robert_unknown]

So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ. "

so he should have stayed in ministry? or what do you mean?

----

"I DO HAVE PROOF that EN *REMOVED* Paul Daniels from the ministry. "

I have PROOF that PD was removed from ministry already 2 months BEFORE he confessed his adultery! how does this fit into the picture, Jon?
}

[freedom43]

There is a lot of talk here about TRUTH from the Bible and PROOF. But, it seems TRUTH to Jon is his interpretation only -- which seems to align solely/completely with EN's view. Having a monopoly on TRUTH (from the Bible!) is one of the things that makes a group cultic and sounds like cultic thinking to me.

[robert_unknown]

"Answer: On the contrary, the standard is HIGHER when talking about church government. The New Testament clearly warns us not to receive an accusation against a leader lightly, but with MORE witnesses than required merely against a brother in Matthew 18:15-17.

So, by your own admission, I take it, you have not complied with either Matt 18:15-17 OR the higher standards required for accusations against leaders. "

why to you asume that people have NOT investigated properly? why do you assume that the steps in Math.18 have not been followed properly?

1- there are MORE than 1 or 2 wittnesses concerning several issues.
2- there have been people investigating the issues (you mentioned the PaulDaniel issue). this includes interviews with involved people.
3- there have been steps to discuss this from brother to brother BEFORE making it public. Please ask Phil Rosenthal or Speakword about it.
4- There have been steps and attempts to discuss this further in a proper and sound way with ie Steve Murrell, Gareth Stead.

The problem is, that neither Murrel nor Stead have answered the questions.

---

"HOWEVER IT IS NOT URGENT that the congregation be distracted from seeking God and worshipping God by being told a Soap Opera story. "

Thats the most iritating thing, that Soap Operas are happeing in EN!
But to be serious. Do you rememebr what happened to the people of Israel when the king started to engage into adultery and sin? He set a bad example and the SIN of the KING distracted the church from worshiping God, by engaging into the same things!

Therefore Paul has written the two letters to Timothy, where he comands Timothy to rebuke elders PUBLICLY if they sin! He also set the standart for leadership.


Please read here:

1.Tim.3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&amp;chapter=3&amp;version=31)
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

and here:

1.Tim.5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&amp;chapter=5&amp;version=31)
17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."[c] 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. [b]20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

[40days40years]

jon: or you would have learned that you can walk out any time you want

Really jon are you sure some might not think their walking out on God? Come on Jon, you should write comedy.

As far as Paul Daniels? If my pastor was in MAJOR SIN I would want to know about it and make my own decision if I wanted to "contribute" to that church. How dare you! You are giving EN the credit for Paul Daniels being removed. Paul Daniels decided to join His People to EN while in a state of major sin or at least unknown sin by the congregation, it appears that EN leadership knew about this sin and kept it quiet. What about the congregation in South Africa having their church joined to a monstrosity and having no say in it? Again How dare you! Bye the way why does a DC boy care about Paul Daniels?

(Message edited by 40days40years on October 21, 2006)

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

Hello back to you, Dust. Thanks for the greeting. =)

-Brick

[dust]

I'm happy to see you back on the board, but then I'm thinking, I hope you are not going to get worked up herehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Hi 40, I thought the same thing...why is he focused on Paul Daniel?

[40days40years]

Take deep breaths, think cool water, cool water. I do think it is kind of a big deal unless I read wrong jon is saying if Paul Daniels repented to leadership the congregation that pays the bills should be kept in the dark?

[40days40years]

Jon said: Why would EN want to get a "pot of gold" from His People and LEAVE Paul Daniels in position?

Uhhhh that would be pretty good leverage to have over someone, right? Or maybe you just wait for him to fall into sin again and the pot of gold falls into your lap. Is Jon trolling us? getting laughs?

[jonmoseley]

This is not about what anyone THINKS... it is about what is TRUE.

If you want to discuss imaginary opinions, then let's all watch a Soap Opera and talk about what we think happens in scenes NOT shown on the television in these imaginary people's lives.

DO YOU HAVE PROOF that EN knew about PROOF (not accusations) of Daniels' adultery much earlier.

I DO HAVE PROOF that EN *REMOVED* Paul Daniels from the ministry.

YOU: Speculation.

ME: Proof. EN took action.

Furthermore, if your accusation of a motive of a pot of gold is true, then WHY NOT ALL THE MORE take His People AND THEN GET RID OF PAUL DANIELS????

Your accusation of a motive that His People is a pot of gold would support the CONTRARY theory (if there were one, which I say only to show that your argument is not persuasive) that EN took over His People and then FABRICATED accusations against Paul Daniels in order to grab this "pot of gold."

Why would EN want to get a "pot of gold" from His People and LEAVE Paul Daniels in position?

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I was assigned to a home group led by a person who went back 20 years in the church, and who had known me VERY well personally from 1985 through 1993.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

wow, what a REVELATION. You were <font color="119911"><font size="+2">assigned</font></font> to a small group? YUCK. They tried that where I went here in LA. HA.

Welcome, btw, jon. it is nice to have fresh views from new posters, always, and I encourage others who might just be reading to take a leap and begin posting, as well.

Jon, in most of your posts above, you kept saying "YOU." are you speaking to any particular person, or just all of us who have decided to join in the discussions on factnet against EN?

[robert_unknown]

Dear Jon.

you like to double post? me too:

------
So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ. "

so he should have stayed in ministry? or what do you mean?

----

"I DO HAVE PROOF that EN *REMOVED* Paul Daniels from the ministry. "

I have PROOF that PD was removed from ministry already 2 months BEFORE he confessed his adultery! how does this fit into the picture, Jon?
}
-----------

just one more thing for you to consider:

I will not cast my perles before the swine, by providing you with evidence. you will have to dig by your own like we all had to. only one hint. there is a timeline on the internet with the whole EN history. there should be enough evidence for you to understand that what i said is no speculation but a plain fact. even if it hurts, and even if you will have to agree that you are wrong. you are concerned for truth? if you really want to find out whats true, you will have to do your homeworks!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on October 21, 2006)

[jonmoseley]

I was assigned to a home group because (a) it was near to where I live and (b) it had room in it. I spent about a year ASKING for more personal ministry, prayer, and help with some serious problems I was going through. My calls to one home group leader were ignored, even though I had been a member of Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill starting in 1985 and well known to many leaders of Metro Morning Star in Sterling. Others in the church tried to help me get involved in a home group because I was going through some tough times. Result: NOTHING.

It was not until a new home church was announced, near me, that it was suggested they had room for more people.

When I got to that home group, pretty much all we did was sit around and eat cookies and cheese and crakers, bore ourselves to tears on the drivel of the infantile book "A Purpose Driven Life" (which we should have all learned in Sunday School) and then just prayer for each other. It was like a visit to your grandmother's house for Sunday dinner.

To answer your question, this being a collective discussion, I am speaking to "you" meaning those who are attacking Every Nation/MSI

[robert_unknown]

jon, please dont take it personal what i say. i am confronted with much hurt at the moment (not mine), and sometimes loose patience when someone defends the mistakes of/ in EN.

however - your point of view is apprechiated. But please read the posts and please read yourself into the message board. i know - its not easy to find always what you are looking for, but take your time. and please double check the things, as i did.

at the end of the day, you will be able to draw your conclusions about it...

[jonmoseley]

This is not about what anyone THINKS... it is about what is TRUE.

If you want to discuss imaginary opinions, then let's all watch a Soap Opera and talk about what we think happens in scenes NOT shown on the television in these imaginary people's lives.

DO YOU HAVE PROOF that EN knew about PROOF (not accusations) of Daniels' adultery much earlier.

I DO HAVE PROOF that EN *REMOVED* Paul Daniels from the ministry.

YOU: Speculation.

ME: Proof. EN took action.

Furthermore, if your accusation of a motive of a pot of gold is true, then WHY NOT ALL THE MORE take His People AND THEN GET RID OF PAUL DANIELS????

Your accusation of a motive that His People is a pot of gold would support the CONTRARY theory (if there were one, which I say only to show that your argument is not persuasive) that EN took over His People and then FABRICATED accusations against Paul Daniels in order to grab this "pot of gold."

Why would EN want to get a "pot of gold" from His People and LEAVE Paul Daniels in position?

[robert_unknown]

if you are not able to engage in a serious and honest discussion without showing inmaturity by double and triple posting things, and without reading what others are posting, and answering on it you can discuss with yourself.

there are more important things to do, than feeding trolls ;)

good night.

[jonmoseley]

I was assigned to a home group because (a) it was near to where I live and (b) it had room in it. I spent about a year ASKING for more personal ministry, prayer, and help with some serious problems I was going through. My calls to one home group leader were ignored, even though I had been a member of Maranatha Church on Capitol Hill starting in 1985 and well known to many leaders of Metro Morning Star in Sterling. Others in the church tried to help me get involved in a home group because I was going through some tough times. Result: NOTHING.

It was not until a new home church was announced, near me, that it was suggested they had room for more people.

When I got to that home group, pretty much all we did was sit around and eat cookies and cheese and crakers, bore ourselves to tears on the drivel of the infantile book "A Purpose Driven Life" (which we should have all learned in Sunday School) and then just prayer for each other. It was like a visit to your grandmother's house for Sunday dinner.

To answer your question, this being a collective discussion, I am speaking to "you" meaning those who are attacking Every Nation/MSI

[jonmoseley]

As to the computer system, FactNet is BOMBING and that is not my fault.

From my end, I am getting ERRORS that the message has NOT been posted.

Why I am getting ERROR messages on my end saying the message was NOT posted, but you are seeing it posted, I do not know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YOU ASKED:
------
So if even Paul Daniels himself (as much as some may hold him in deep disregard) were to repent (and we don't know I dare say), then those counseling him SHOULD NOT "tell it to the congregation" as I read the commandments of Jesus Christ. "

so he should have stayed in ministry? or what do you mean?

MY ANSWER: I was referring to AFTER Paul Daniels was removed from ministry.

Removal from ministry is one thing.

The "need" to entertain the congregation with sordid details of the Soap Opera is something else.

I do not believe that it is a "cover up" to not show the congregation a slide show of Paul Daniels doing the nasty and telling them all about the adultery.

It is enough that Paul Daniels was removed from ministry when EN could reasonably confirm the wrong and act.

It is NOT necessary to give the congregation a steamy romance novel complete with all of the sexual positions, and it is not a "cover up" to fail to tell them all about the affairs.

[wildwood_]

Hi Jon! Welcome to the board, I saw your comments on Tikie's blog and I'm glad that you have brought them here. I am not nor I have I ever been here on this board to attack MSI or EN...in fact my first post was to stand beside the heart of a friend. I've never moved from that spot or yielded my belief that my friend's heart loves the Lord Jesus truly &amp; deeply...although many here have been wounded in some manner by my friend; they've never asked me to stop standing or even once hinted that my belief in my friend's heart is wrong. I've stayed because I've seen Jesus here. The same Jesus that I so surely saw in my friend's heart so many years ago... and I would see Jesus... just as those blind men cried out to the crowd of Disciples surrounding Jesus in Matthew Chapter 20... and the Lord...stopped and stood still and healed their sight &amp; they followed Him. If there's ever a day, when my friend might wish to speak here...then he will know he would not have to stand alone, that at least one heart stands still &amp; waits with only Joy to see him. I pray my friend understands and that by doing so I have caused him no pain...this I do not know &amp; may never know. And this saddens me. But, still I stand beside him, and pray. The true blessing for me...from having stood here, and read here, and posted here...I've learned that's the main hope of the majority of those who've come-- Not to tear down but to heal that which is broken...and to walk in the Love and Lordship of Jesus Christ...and they've been a Joyous Hope of Jesus...

If that's what you are seeking...then you will find that here... Not hypocrites but broken people who in their brokenness have found a new heart for the Lord: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Psalm 51 WEB

1 For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy on me, God, according to your loving kindness. According to the multitude of your tender mercies, blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity. Cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions. My sin is constantly before me.

4 Against you, and you only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight; that you may be proved right when you speak, and justified when you judge.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.

6 Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts. You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean. Wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

8 Let me hear joy and gladness, That the bones which you have broken may rejoice.

9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all of my iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a right spirit within me.

11 Don't throw me from your presence, and don't take your holy Spirit from me.

12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation. Uphold me with a willing spirit.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways. Sinners shall be converted to you.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation. My tongue shall sing aloud of your righteousness.

15 Lord, open my lips. My mouth shall declare your praise.

16 For you don't delight in sacrifice, or else I would give it. You have no pleasure in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

This is an open forum and not all seek the same things from posting...but the majority do... read and see for yourself.

[vanguard]

The cover up is about the His People pastors knew about the Years of adulterous affair of Paul Daniel, not just one woman. There was an investigation in London and the church there also found out about His People covering up Paul Daniel's affair. Everything is posted by Phillip Rosenthal. Its the years of cover up thats Damnable. Paul Daniel is pretty much open about his adulterous affair to His People Pastors.

Please search Phillip Rosenthal posting . He is one of the former minister of His People. So he knew the details of it.

[wisedove]

Wildy-
howdy...get on over to the pumpkin thread...

Jon, glad to see things seemed to calm down all of a suddent with your quadruple posts. Sorry if you weren't intentionally doing that. It just appeared that way.

[wildwood_]

Hi Dovey...I'll try...I have a little one that thinks we are going out to dinner now...(a big one too)...maybe later??? Blessings! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif I'd just "refreshed before posting this below &amp; saw you!) That's another hint, Jon, ...copy your post with just the mouse click, hit refresh to see what's happened while you've been typing &amp; then post...

Oh Jon, the Factnet board is rather touchy...just hit enter once...if you get an "error message"...if you can, just open a new browser window &amp; see if if the post is showing before doing anything else. Most of the time it is... I have no idea why... If you get an error message while previewing, just back arrow and try again. And sometimes, none of that helps. But if you hit send more than once...the post usually appears the same number of times that the send key is hit. Sometimes on other message boards, I've seen this done on purpose for "impact"... and sometimes on here too... hope that helps...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Also, it might be nice to try and not use all caps so frequently since it does seem a bit like yelling...but...that's up to you, since it's not an audio-board, the volume doesn't hurt my ears...but the all caps kinda makes me think I'm in an agruement and I'm not arguing...at least not yet... and I don't want to... I want to be able to listen &amp; hear what you are saying without starting to prepare a response as a reflex action... And I don't suppose you'd like to just pick one thread &amp; stay there for awhile so we could consolidate a bit...and not be so confusing in responding...? You could link to the other threads that you'd like reviewed...

As you prefer however, those are just suggestions for helpfulness and not as a critque (except maybe the question about the caps...but its not intended offensively).

[jonmoseley]

VANGUARD writes:

The cover up is about the His People pastors knew about the Years of adulterous affair of Paul Daniel, not just one woman.

MY RESPONSE: OKAY, GOOD, we are getting clarity. But then must you not agree that this is NOT Every Nation's "cover up?"

I don't care if you say I should have read back to the start of time, recent posts repeatedly talk about EVERY NATION scandals and cover ups... of which there is actually only one identified... Paul Daniels.

If the cover-up was entirely within His People, then how are you justified in saying that Every Nation has engaged in a cover up?

Indeed, as I understand it, there is a strong chance that Paul Daniels would still be a leader in His People today, WERE IT NOT FOR EVERY NATION taking over His People, and then removing Paul Daniels from the ministry.

So PRECISION really is important.

Once we get precise, we see that Every Nation actually HELPED the situation. Maybe not fast enough. Maybe not the way you wish. Maybe they didn't tell everyone the Soap Opera details.

But I gather from what you and others are saying, that (a) Paul Daniels is the #1 culprit, (b) Paul Daniels lied to other pastors and leaders so that THEY could not be part of a cover-up, if they were lied to, (c) Others in His People DID engage in a cover up, (d) Surely some in His People lacked appropriate curiosity about apparent wrongdoing, (e) His People joined Every Nation, and (f) Every Nation REMOVED Paul Daniels from ministry.

Is that about right?}}}

[vanguard]

a. Paul Daniel is the culprit.
b. I do not think Paul Daniel lied to the other HP pastors, his adulterous affair is pretty much open to HP pastors. They knew about it.
c. His People did engage in the cover up.
d. I don't know
e. His People joined EN
f. Before removing Paul Daniel, EN bought him a huge home in Nashville. This is public record.
g. Paul Daniel was removed from ministry Because as I said, he is open about his adulterous affair.

h. here is the problem, VCF and EN, that includes Steve Murrell knew about the HP pastors cover up of Paul Daniel affair. AND DID NOT DO ANYTHING about it.

Its a cover up after cover up.

I gave Phillip Rosenthal the fax number of the Phillipine VCF office. Phillip have fax all the details to VCF and Steve Murrell did not do anything.

I do not know how extent does EN knows about the HP cover up of Paul Daniel. But I do know that VCF knew the full details.

[jonmoseley]

h. here is the problem, VCF and EN, that includes Steve Murrell knew about the HP pastors cover up of Paul Daniel affair. AND DID NOT DO ANYTHING about it.

MY RESPONSE: Okay, but you have to be a lot more precise about the time line here, including what may have been going on behind closed doors.

Again, a public announcement is NOT the only measure of "doing something." Telling the congregation a soap opera is not required for EN to be "doing something."

WHY would EN buy Paul Daniels a house in Nashville unless they were MOVING HIM OUT of His People and trying to encourage him to seek intensive counseling in Nashville AWAY from His People in Africa?

What in the world would Paul Daniels need with a house in Nashville, if he were pastoring in Africa?

Does not buying a house in Nashville tell you they were quietly SEPARATING Paul Daniels from His People already?

Because EN did not even begin talking to His People until 1998, and these events you complain of were mostly in 1993-1994, and I assume it took a couple of years to conclude all of the merger, it does not look like there was much of a delay between EN taking over and quietly moving Paul Daniels off stage left.

However, this is why I suggest PRECISION here that I do not see in evidence.

TELL US: What exactly was going on behind closed doors to rehabilitate Paul Daniels?

How hard was it to convince Paul Daniels he had to step down? Was there a big fight privately?

We don't know these things, but you assume that you do.

Maybe you do know the answer to this one: Did the women WANT their names splashed all over the local newspapers and throughout the Christian community? Did the women desire a private and quiet end to Paul Daniels ministry? That would require persuading him to step down quietly.

[vanguard]

According to one of the EN Board member, which I have personally spoken to. They DO NOT WANT TO CONSIDER Phillip Rosenthal complain because Phillip left the church , VCF answer to Philip is to ignore him. And some name they call him that I do not want to post. VCF knew about the cover up and decided NOT to do anything.


This is not about women's name being splashed all over the news, nor about what kind of fight they have. This is about Cover up. One woman came forward,then There was an investigation in London. And the church there found out about the cover up. Paul Daniel has no plans to step down quietly.

I DO NOT KNOW WHY EN bought him a house. But its public record, its still under Paul Daniel's name in Nashville.
Paul Daniel is back in Africa and has gone back to his profession , a Pharmacist.
Somebody in EN is paying Paul Daniel's mortgage. Paul Daniel cannot afford that house now.

[vanguard]

Rehabilitating Paul Daniel ? There is no rehabilitation. According to EN, Jim Lafoon start to "discern" Paul Daniel sins and start naming his sin. Some of them was misuse of finances. Paul Daniel resisted that. I do not know the details after that, BUT EN soon called HP and told them that Paul Daniel's removal.
I do not know if Paul Daniel misuse any finances . But definitely there is no rehabilitation.

Its a pretty common tactic of EN. Discerning people's sin. They tried that on me before. Jim Lafoon even ask me if I even had an abortion. I NEVER HAD ONE .

[vanguard]

It is when VCF and EN decided to ignore Phillip about the HP cover up, thats when Phillip decided to expose HP cover up. By posting it on Factnet.

EN and VCF, especially Steve Murrell have time and time again have told everybody this. If you have any problem with the church, go talk to your pastors. WHICH Phillip did. He went all the way up. And Steve Murrell made a decison to ignore him . They even resort to name calling.

[jonmoseley]

VANGUARD WROTE:
This is not about women's name being splashed all over the news, nor about what kind of fight they have. This is about Cover up.

MY response: But everything you say confirms that it was a cover up within His People NOT within Every Nation.

SO WHY DO ALL OF YOU so carelessly, without justification talk about an EVERY NATION cover-up when you KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT TRUE?

If you are seeking the truth, rather than trying to slander a church, WHY do you keep talking about something that happened BEFORE His People joined Every Nation, and FALSELY talking about an EN cover up? You know that Every Nation FIXED the problem! His People DID NOT fix the problem.

Does this not suggest people whose purpose is NOT to heal or to understand what they went through BUT TO INTENTIONALLY HARM a church with statements THAT YOU KNOW TO BE FALSE?

Everything you say shows a cover up and worse INSIDE His People.

Yet you NEVER talk about it that way.

Don't think we are soo dumb that we don'tknow what you guys are up to.

You post FALSE information on this board and others, and then SHOW IT TO PEOPLE in order to actively and aggressively harm Every Nation.

And then another church, and another church, and another church, and another church. Someone noted I posted in response to NTCC. DO YOU SEE HOW MANY DIFFERENT CHURHCES ARE BEING SLANDERED ON HERE?

[vanguard]

Jon, I never said that EN cover up Paul Daniel's adulterous affair. and what the heck are you talking about ?

I said VCF KNEW ABOUT IT AND DECIDED NOT TO DO ANYTHING.
Its the same thing as the HP pastors KNEW about Paul Daniel's affair and decided NOT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

BOTH ARE COVER UP.

[vanguard]

Jon you don't get it do you ?? Its the cover up thats more damnable than the adultery.

[jonmoseley]

It is true that when PRESSED on the details, you do not say it was EN.

Yet EVERY mention of this by anyone else, everywhere else on this Board and everywhere else talks about EN having scandals and cover-ups. NOT HP... EN.

However, Every Nation -- as far as you or I know -- HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COVER UP.

You could say that you are the lone minority who is different from 99% of the others talking about this.

But you CANNOT express surprise that people on this board are conintuously talking about EN's cover up.

His People did.

Every Nation did not.

Every item of evidence you point to actually proves the opposite... that it was HP's cover up NOT Every Nation's

By the way, it is Biblically NOT correct that the cover up is worse than adultery.

Adultery is explicitly identified in the Bible as a breach of the qualifications of a pastor.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE about a cover-up being wrong, and plenty of scriptures suggesting otherwise.

CAN YOU SHOW US where in the Bible a "cover up" is worse than adultery? We ARE talking about leadership of the church here, so I really think we would have to turn to the Bible, not to our own opinions. If we want to discuss politics or business or something else, then the Bible might not be so compelling. But when we talk about a leader of A CHURCH, don't you agree that the Bible should govern?

So where in the Bible does it say that it is worse to have a cover-up than to commit adultery?

NEVERTHELESS, CAN WE AGREE that -- as far as we know -- there was NO cover up by Every Nation?

His People, apparently yes. Every Nation, not that we know of. (And if it later comes out otherwise, we go with the truth in every case, whatever the truth may be.)

[jonmoseley]

It is true that when PRESSED on the details, you do not say it was EN.

Yet EVERY mention of this by anyone else, everywhere else on this Board and everywhere else talks about EN having scandals and cover-ups. NOT HP... EN.

However, Every Nation -- as far as you or I know -- HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COVER UP.

You could say that you are the lone minority who is different from 99% of the others talking about this.

But you CANNOT express surprise that people on this board are conintuously talking about EN's cover up.

His People did.

Every Nation did not.

Every item of evidence you point to actually proves the opposite... that it was HP's cover up NOT Every Nation's

By the way, it is Biblically NOT correct that the cover up is worse than adultery.

Adultery is explicitly identified in the Bible as a breach of the qualifications of a pastor.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE about a cover-up being wrong, and plenty of scriptures suggesting otherwise.

CAN YOU SHOW US where in the Bible a "cover up" is worse than adultery? We ARE talking about leadership of the church here, so I really think we would have to turn to the Bible, not to our own opinions. If we want to discuss politics or business or something else, then the Bible might not be so compelling. But when we talk about a leader of A CHURCH, don't you agree that the Bible should govern?

So where in the Bible does it say that it is worse to have a cover-up than to commit adultery?

NEVERTHELESS, CAN WE AGREE that -- as far as we know -- there was NO cover up by Every Nation?

His People, apparently yes. Every Nation, not that we know of. (And if it later comes out otherwise, we go with the truth in every case, whatever the truth may be.)

[vanguard]

HP cover up of Paul Daniel is the worst of its kind. BUT EN has their own fair share of cover up , this time with them its finances. Steve Murrell gave his word that he is going to OPEN the books, NOW, it looked like he refused. Probably, my guess he does not want to reveal how much Phil Bonasso diverted the EN finances to his(Phil Bonasso) pockets and to the top leaders pockets.

Even though they did admit on somethings but nothing specific of HOW MUCH.