If You Could say One Thing to Every Nation Leaders

[speakword2004]

Dear Posters

If you could say something to the apostolic leaders in one (1) sentence what would it be?

[upcase20]

You have little character and what gives you the right to think that you can control another persons life.

[ginger1]

OPEN the BOOKS .

[philiprosenthal]

Please read and implement the recommendations for organisational repentance and reform at www.everynationreform.com (http://www.everynationreform.com)

[robert_unknown]

Remember that You are a normal human beeing!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
His grace can set you free, and give you ears to hear and eyes to see, if you repent and ask!}

[forword]

Publicly repent and open the books!

[ulyankee]

Jesus Christ ALONE is the Head of the church!

[pilgrim]

I would say the same Jesus Christ ALONE is the Head of the church! and the only foundation.

[ulyankee]

In light of this, here is the announcement for EN's Southeast Regional Conference (http://www.southpointcc.com/index.php?option=com_attend_events&amp;task=view&amp;id=1&amp; Itemid=45):

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Southeast Regional Conference

I can’t wait for all of the Southeast regional churches to come together again to celebrate what God is doing in their midst. But I am also excited about the future as a new vision unfolds for us to build the kind of churches that God uses to change the world.

This year the theme is “UPON THIS ROCK.”

The revelation of Jesus in our hearts is the solid foundation upon which prevailing churches are built. People who have “seen” Jesus are a special breed. They are a people convinced that Jesus is Who He says He is, a people filled with His resurrected life, a people driven by His passion for the church, and a people consumed with His purpose for their life, that is contagious to others.

Together we are going to celebrate the Head of the church and His bride - the church. I hope you can be with us for this special moment.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

(emphases mine)

Friends, JESUS CHRIST is the Rock, the Foundation, the Head of the Church. The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ.

NOT merely the "revelation of Jesus in our hearts." There is a difference, and not just a minor semantic one. Jesus Christ is certainly revealed, but to all believers, not just a "special breed" of those who have "seen" Him through (secret) knowledge. Jesus Christ is the foundation - period.

This subtle twist is akin to GNOSTICISM (http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NL_July1990.pdf#search=%22%22revelation%20of%20jes us%22%20gnosticism%20%22latter%20rain%22%22), also known as "new breed (http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/02/emergent-new-breed-leaders.html)" teaching.

BTW, I had previously found this teaching that the "revelation of Jesus"/"revelation of Christ" is the foundation in VLI materials.

The TRUTH is that the one and only Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God, is the Head of the church.

The revelation of Jesus in our hearts MUST match up with the REAL Jesus Christ revealed in Scripture. Remember that the REAL Jesus Christ in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) warned us that false Christs and false prophets would appear and deceive many.

Do not be deceived! There is only One Jesus Christ!

[jbkrems]

Ulyankee:

I'm surprised, here. The quote said "The revelation of Jesus in our hearts is the rock," etc. Then you come out and say Jesus is the rock.

What's the difference, here?

Or, as the old commercial says, "Where's the beef?"

I could be wrong and assuming, but what is described here sounds like the average, spirit-filled/charismatic believer is what they are talking about in the post. It does not sound that "special" to me.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi UL-
We had this teaching in MCM. The main thrust of this view is the we, the church will marry Jesus as our brother. We are the new breed as His bethrothed. Bethroth is a Middle English word that means truth. It means all encompassing, of all we have, in essence and in fact. Jesus is our brother in Him, whom we will marry because we have seen Jesus. This new breed is special, set apart for the groom. If we have Jesus in our hearts, we the special ones, the set apart ones will be the bride. It goes on to say that not all Christians will be the bride, just us the set apart ones, new breed. We run on the walls, etc. Then they would play the army song, Blow A Trumpet in Zion, and off we would go. This was commonly taught.}

[ulyankee]

hi Coppertree, yes, that's what I thought, thank you for the confirmation.

JB, point taken, John Wesley talked about that too in one of his classic sermons (http://gbgm-umc.org/UMHistory/wesley/sermons/serm-017.stm) - about Jesus being revealed in our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit and needing to have a heart relationship with Jesus, and that is closer to what you are talking about, but given the history of this particular group and its roots at least in the US branch, this more than likely goes beyond what Wesley believed. The revelation itself is not the foundation... JESUS CHRIST the Person is the foundation, the cornerstone of our faith. The language including that of building "prevailing churches" (current church growth buzz-term) is very close to the "overcomers" teachings that Coppertree and the other former MCMers here would be familiar with.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi UL,
I am wondering about why John Wesley , so dramatically withdrew from the Mustard Seed order, so loved now by En?}

[ulyankee]

Hi Coppertree... Wesley wasn't actually in the Mustard Seed Order itself but was associated with the Moravians for a time - he attributed his own personal conversion to the Moravians. He broke with them (http://sscs.press.jhu.edu/annual_meeting/aar_sessions.html) over their hypermysticism and extreme antinomianism.

(Message edited by ulyankee on September 12, 2006)

[jbkrems]

Copper: There is a kernel of truth in that teaching you described, because the Church (we) are the bride of Christ. But that does not make us "special" or anything like that. Sounds to me that MCM/EN is reading too much into the "bride of Christ" thing.

Ulyankee: Yeah, I can see your point. I just think that the way the "announcement" was phrased was rather benign, probably to pull more people into something that could be extreme or misconstrued.

[john_r_jones]

Ul,
the stratified kingdom is of course at play here. The special Christians and then the rest, how unrefreshing is this recycled drek. The poverty stricken Jesus spoke of in the beatitudes, those in lack that He sought out, the poor and needy He befriended. Jesus as Messiah, a Lord who doesn't flex His muscles, a King who waits and allows His kingdom to be discovered by those who seek it instead of being a marauding band of cavaliers who crush the weak for sport. I look at the scripture about the lion laying down with the lamb in light of Robert Capon's take on the matter; the strong people will not take advantage of and devour those who are weaker, they will be equals.

John

[ulyankee]

jrj, yes, I've often thought that the prevailing take on it among leadership was, "We've been meek long enough!!! We can inherit the earth NOW!" Or like tying up the lamb and laying at the feet of a salivating lion. If it's not in God's timing or power then nothing we do as humans changes that. Jesus certainly gave us enough to do to occupy that time though. Truly loving my neighbors, brothers, sisters, even enemies is easier said than done and without the Spirit almost impossible.

[maranatha1984]

I would say this

"Grow up and get a real job"

Tik

[maranatha1984]

I would say this

"Grow up and get a real job"

Tik

[wildwood_]

My prayer is that their foundation remains Jesus Christ as the ONLY begotten Son of God. The Lord Jesus holds my heart but my Faith's foundation is WHO HE IS...not who I am because of who He IS... I am the clay on the Potter's Wheel and would not recommend any relationship of my heart as a foundation stone; I can be a nice brick perhaps, a piece of mortar somewhere...a door-stop, or maybe a bit of cracked plaster that lets in some Light...

Matthew 16:15-18<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>


JESUS said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

John 3:16-21<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Greetings to all...I've been off the board for a bit. Trying to catch up my reading now, but the school bus brakes are even now squeaking their delivery of my "distraction" now http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[wildwood_]

My prayer is that their foundation remains Jesus Christ as the ONLY begotten Son of God. The Lord Jesus holds my heart but my Faith's foundation is WHO HE IS...not who I am because of who He IS... I am the clay on the Potter's Wheel and would not recommend any relationship of my heart as a foundation stone; I can be a nice brick perhaps, a piece of mortar somewhere...a door-stop, or maybe a bit of cracked plaster that lets in some Light...

Matthew 16:15-18<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>


JESUS said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

John 3:16-21<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Greetings to all...I've been off the board for a bit. Trying to catch up my reading, but the school bus brakes are even now squeaking their delivery of my "distraction"...later... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[blueboy96]

You had way too many opportunities to clean up your act--and you've blown them every time.

[jonmoseley]

COPPERTREE WROTE:
We had this teaching in MCM. The main thrust of this view is the we, the church will marry Jesus as our brother.

MOSELEY: This is stated explicitly in the Bible. This is not an MCM thing. IT'S A BIBLE THANG. It does not talk about brother, nor did MCM. But WE ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

Sounds like, oh boy, ARE YOU IN FOR A SURPRISE when this world ends, if you don't know basic things like that.

Once again, I am TICKED OFF at you taking Biblical interpretations that are WIDESPREAD and trying to portray MCM / EN / MSI as NOT WORTHY TO LIVE because they believe what thousands of other churches believe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The other comment is typical of unreasonable and unfair criticism.

Jesus is EVERYTHING you can imagine.

So you write up a one-page letter to encourage people to attend a conference. In doing so, the writer PICKS ONE way to describe Jesus, emphasising the purpose of the conference thereby.

YOU: Unfairly and untruthfully suggest that this is a denial of other aspects of who Jesus is. YOU *KNOW* THAT AIN'T TRUE. YOU KNOW that the writer could not write a 100 page letter as a conference invitation, exhaustively listing every possible aspect of Jesus and every possible way to describe him.

Why do you say such things?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I had a chance to say one thing to EN's leadership, in all seriousness, I would encourage them to LEARN HOW TO PRAY: PRAYER MEETINGS ARE FOR TALKING TO GOD, not for preaching and hearing ourselves talk. STOP TALKING and start praying. Praying to God is more important than any preaching you could possibly offer.

[coppertree]

font{arial,helvetica, Jon
Actually I wrote more, but you by using a partial quote , a half truth, if you will; misquote me. Please go to Ul site that referrs to our, Ul and mine discussion, there is discussion of gnosticism and new breed. At first blush, it looks like a good doctrine, but your understanding is not complete. I know as you say you "TICKED OFF" at me personally here. You admit, the part about as "brother", is not on the Word, if I am understanding you well. This is where this teaching comes away from the Word. This a the fault in this mountain so to speak.
Read on to Mdillion's post #638, and John R Jones #1142, there is more explanation here, these men know about what they speak. I hope that this helps. Dig a little deeper, like the Berans did.}