Crackpots Malcontents and Dissidents

[speakword2004]

I'm not really interested in sarky comments and would ask if people please stay oin topic or evacuate to the Bunny Trails if otherwise.

It seems that many leaders, especially the cultists want to paint any open criticism of the movement as the work of bitter and twisted individuals.

Please explain for the benefit of lurkers, new readers and seekers why this is not so.

[robert_unknown]

1. There is always a reason for beeing bitter, so beeing bitter is not necesarily the fault of the bitter person. a rape victim engages into trauma and cannot be blamed for it. many people here have been traumaticed by brutal abuse. even if there are some bitter people here, whats the problem about this? the question must be "why is it possible, in a church environment, that people get hurt so badly, that they become bitter?"

2. bitter people dont necesrily gather on an internet discussion forum to discuss creative ways of restoring and reforming something. so not everyone here is bitter, just because he/she is here...

3. Jesus himself NEVER demanded blind obedience. He NEVER discouraged critisism of His person or of His teachings. He encouraged people to check if He or His teaching is something they can aply for their lives. Jesus NEVER said - "Don´t critizise me... I am the anointed of the Lord" - despite the fact that He ALONE PROOFED to be the anointed of the Lord in the real meaning of the word!

4. ALL things that we critizise seem to be the same on every continent, in every nation, and in many of the EN churches. It seems that there is a "red line" of the same things drawn through the whole movement.

5. Leadership has to proof itself accountable and transparent to the congregation as well. If they are not - to bad - then people have to stand up and demand it.

6. Leadership has to keep moral and biblical standarts and to set a good example for the congregation.

7. There is no such thing like "obedience" in the sense of accepting everything that is said or done in church leadership.

[philiprosenthal]

Trying to blacken your accusers name and credibility is a standard tactic for people accused of just about anything if they don't want to repent. It is not unique to EveryNation. Lawyers use it in court cases. Politicians do in in the media and parliament. Sad that it happens in the church.

[freedom43]

As I have said before, I am not really bitter or angry. I am a free moral agent and made the choice to be involved in Maranatha and stay for 12 years. I discovered FactNet out of curiosity Googling some people's names to see where they are today.

However, once I started reading some of the entries, I realized that many of the same people I encountered 20 years ago are still at it today -- still controlling and abusing people. That's when I realized I should start posting. They have changed the name only. Otherwise, there is nothing new under the sun.

As others have said here, if they feel we are bitter and angry, then the onus is on them to contact us and reconcile. They sure knew how to find us when they wanted our tithes, or for us to babysit or clean their houses, etc.

However, knowing their mentality, they would not think this verse applies to them because many times they do not accept that anyone who leaves their church is still their "brother" or even a Christian.

Matthew 5:23: Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

[lablady2]

freedom: maddening at times, isn't it? They tied it up in a nice, tidy package. In their view, we were biblically wrong for disagreeing with their version of Christianity, therefore they have no biblical obligation to repent or make any gesture of care or concern related to path of debris they left in the lives of those who trusted them. How very convenient..and wrong.

You have to save yourself, and you did. And here's your gift for getting out: You can be a decent human being. And you can give yourself some credit for being smarter than they are (or more willing to hear God if that's more agreeable). At least I only lost 4-5 years of my life; some of these people are losing their entire lives in deception, hatred, and manipulation. I'm convinced that some will go to their graves without admitting to themselves how much damage they have done to others, and they may be the lucky ones (unless you're inclined to believe in the judgment thing). I'd hate to wake up at 65 and realize that the sum total of my life's work had been for naught....or worse.

I thank God everyday that He gave me the wisdom to leave. What a gift that was!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi All
I am thinking as Freedom 43 has stated, I post here because I was told face to face that these policies, and control, etc. were repented from a good day ago. But I see here that ; it is not so. I don't want more Christians to be hurt and lose precious time en tangled in this group. We are told in the Word to contend for correct doctrine. We are supposed to help , and not sit by and let things go on. Especially when all this was condemned by those who now continue in the same path. It is not fair to babes in Christ.}

[upcase20]

Lablady2: Your quote, "I'd hate to wake up at 65 and realize that the sum of my life's work had been for naught" is scary though true. The pastor of the church I left sent out a communique to the congregation that laid out plans that would take them through "the next several decades". So that would make that number 65 about right. I'm glad I was there for a much shorter time, saw the direction, and left.

[freedom43]

Thanks, lablady. I appreciate your insight/perspective/encouragement especially the part about trying to be a decent human being. Don't know if it was God or smarts or just finally waking up that led me out. A large part of it was seeing other people in the church whom I loved, trusted and respected be mistreated.

People who know me now (and not then) are surprised that I was able to let myself be involved in that group for so long. I think there were a lot of factors that led me (and others) into such a controlling group. I was very young (18), away from home for the first time in college, lonely, vulnerable, trying to avoid my orientation. I came from a big family and things were sometimes chaotic there. Sometimes I think people join the military for similar reasons.

It was very safe to be in Maranatha in some ways and easy. You didn't have to think for yourself or figure out what you believed about anything. It was all just handed to you -- like a roadmap. You felt like you belonged to something bigger than yourself and were "accepted" and "loved" (I put those in quotes because we all know how conditional that was!)

Anyway, that experience helped make me who I am today (for good or bad)-- even my major in college and career path were influenced/decided by that. And, the choice of where I lived after college. Overall, I am pretty happy with my life now. I have no idea where I would be, where my life would be had I not been part of Maranatha. Maybe it would be better, maybe worse. 12 years is long time though. I can understand why some would be bitter.

[upcase20]

Wish I knew who you were Freedom43

[freedom43]

ditto upcase -- what year did you join?

[matt_hatter]

"It seems that many leaders, especially the cultists want to paint any open criticism of the movement as the work of bitter and twisted individuals."

It seems that the panacea that these leaders pulled out of the MCM/EN doctor's kit was to explain the reason for an "errant" members behavior through buzz words.

During my time with MCM, "bitterness" was a BIG one. When that word was thrown around, it conjured up a loser of magnanimous proportions. What it also did was totally change the topic at hand; the questions that person may have had were buried, now the issue became that the person was "bitter" therfore, nothing else needs to be said.

It seemed to work every time. Ex members were ignored on the street,
looked upon with disdain like they had some type of disease, while the basic tenants of their questions and concerns remained unanswered and caught in the decepive web that the leadership wove to keep from the remaining sheep.

The fruits of the Spirit and the basic character traits of Christ were so absent in this tragic ruse that it was simply that: a tragedy.

Matt

[upcase20]

Freedom43: I joined in approximately 1987. I was in a position where I could literally oversee everything.

[upcase20]

Matt-hatter: "Ex members were ignored on the street;basic tenants of questions and concerns remained unanswered;leadership wove to keep from the remaining sheep." All true, the latter of which is why most of us are on this board, to get the answers the leaders would not give us while they kept us in this "stupor". Like where our money went, while the leaders had these high six figure salaries.

[lablady2]

Freedom: Where you in Paducah for a short period of time? Please don't answer if you'd rather not.

upcase: ignored to say the least. Left to perish
while some remaining in the fellowship salivated at the thought of your demise so the the Kingdom of Maranatha might be established. You know, verifing the words of the Resident Prophets.

Good thing I'm a rebel. That just pushed me to succeed.

[speakword2004]

Sorry to bring up the bitterness pill again, but it seems to be a tactic still employed today: Any criticism or any valid concerns that get to the nitty-gritty are thus dismisssed. I wonder if anyone else has some insights.

BTW, in some EN churches profiles have been drawn up on posters to this site as if we were the enemy.

Please be aware that FACTNET is discussed in elders and pastors meeting across the world. It was mentioned at the last world conference, has been mentioned in official communiques etc. Attempts have even been made to legally gag some posters to this forum.

[mcmstaff78]

Speak - this is a typcial tactic of the spiritual abuser. For more insight into the practice of spiritual abuse, I would heartily recommend any work by David Johnson &amp; Jeff VanVonderen. A good place to start is The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (http://tinyurl.com/u3sle).

[speakword2004]

Yes, I would like to recommend the same book as well.

[jonmoseley]

It seems that many leaders, especially the cultists want to paint any open criticism of the movement as the work of bitter and twisted individuals.

Answer: But that DOES NOT MEAN that all criticism is valid. It is equally true that criticism CAN be the pointless wallowing of bitter and twisted individuals.

Or even worse... What I see most of all on this FraudNet is people fraudulently DISGUISING their theological beliefs as attacks on Every Nation, trying to turn honest disagreements over the Bible into a scandal.

I see people who want to assert a particular view of Biblical doctrines unwilling to HONESTLY discuss the Bible, but instead wanting to SMEAR anyone who holds a different view point. They want to win a Biblical discussion not from the Bible but by NAME CALLING Every Nation a cult, etc., etc.

So criticism can be constructive or destructive, honest or dishonest, true or false.

The mere fact that bad people try to squelch criticism DOES NOT TRANSFORM ALL CRITICISM INTO BEING SOMETHING GOOD.

The criticism must stand on its own merits. And here it falls.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

jon wrote:
"CAN be the pointless wallowing of bitter and twisted individuals"

my comment: Why thank you, Jon. How gracious, patient and loving you are to me??? Wow, I'm feeling goose-bumps.

[dust]

Brick
JonMosely is also on other sites like the New Testament Church rebuking them, so we're not sure of motives here, and, this may not be a fruitful debate...think troll, I'm not sure, but when people come to the board defending a ministry who they themself admit was remiss in bringing the full counsel of God's Word......

[freedom43]

I can confirm that I knew a Jon Moseley in the 80s-early 90s in Maranatha/Grace Covenant Church (which becamse Brett Fuller's church) in the DC area. Not sure what became of him after I left. Sounds like he stayed and left and came back and left again -- at least according to what he is saying on Factnet. Not sure what his goals are here.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Mosley: Or even worse... What I see most of all on this FraudNet is people fraudulently DISGUISING their theological beliefs as attacks on Every Nation, trying to turn honest disagreements over the Bible into a scandal.

I see people who want to assert a particular view of Biblical doctrines unwilling to HONESTLY discuss the Bible, but instead wanting to SMEAR anyone who holds a different view point. They want to win a Biblical discussion not from the Bible but by NAME CALLING Every Nation a cult, etc., etc.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I'd be interested in your view of what disputes are purely theological and what would be truly abusive? I'm sure you recognize that groups often devise theological underpinnings for abusive practices and that certain theological beliefs lend themselves to abuse or are even ontologically abusive.

At any rate, anytime someone thinks a criticism is purely a theologicaly disagreement, s/he is welcome to assert that in the discussion (and be prepared to defend the position).

[jonmoseley]

One wrote: JonMosely is also on other sites like the New Testament Church rebuking them,

My response: Are none of you offended by FALSEHOOD for its own sake? If someone says "I saw Sally shoot Greta" and I was there and I know THAT DID NOT HAPPEN, what are my motives in saying "THAT DID NOT HAPPEN?" Are none of you concerned about truth versus falsehood?

Do none of you simply stand up for the truth because it is the truth?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mcmstaff78 actually focused on the important issues, by asking:

I'd be interested in your view of what disputes are purely theological and what would be truly abusive? I'm sure you recognize that groups often devise theological underpinnings for abusive practices and that certain theological beliefs lend themselves to abuse or are even ontologically abusive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MY RESPONSE:

FIRST, it is a logical error of significant dimensions to say "Abusers do this" therefore everyone else who does that must be an abuser. I could say "Cult leaders use verbs and nouns" therefore we must all stop using verbs and nouns. "Cult leaders wear clothes" therefore we must all stop wearing clothes.

I do not make that comment lightly, for I have seen MANY misleading arguments along those lines. Is not such spin and propaganda an attempt at mind control practiced here on this board? If you say "abusers" do that, are you not manipulating people UNLESS it is something that ONLY an abuser could possibly do?

Do legitimate churches have "theological underpinnings?"

I would hope you will agree that legitimate churches, ministries, and ministers have "theological underpinnings."

Therefore, once again, we are drawn back to the central question: WHAT IS BIBLICALLY CORRECT?

It is not about who does what BUT WHAT DOES THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAY?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) A persistent theme here is (horrors) EN / MSI / MCM asked people to tithe. That is Biblical and Biblically required. As I write elsewhere, I believe it is Biblical to DIVERT your tithe to a "house" where there is need "so that there may be food in my house." I dare say that MOST Christian churches would DISAGREE WITH ME on that last point. I have frequently given my tithe to churches / missionaries / ministries OTHER THAN my home church because I saw that that is where there was a lack of "food in my house", even while I was attending Brett Fuller's church Metro Morning Star and Grace Covenant Church.

However, a great deal here -- and in Tik's account / blog -- is presenting the HORROR that EN or MCM said people have to tithe !!! Oh, the horror of it all!

Instead of portraying this as a scandal, or evidence that EN is a cult, people should debate openly what does the Bible say about tithing.

Clearly, you (collectively) are wrong: Tithing is required by the Bible and by God.

[jonmoseley]

2) It is suggested, most dramatically on Tik's narrative, that to SACRIFICE for Jesus is somehow an indiciation of a cult.

You cannot read the words of Jesus without coming to the conclusion that (a) this world is temporary and is scheduled for demolition, (b) the material things of this world will have no value in eternity, (c) the greatest thing you can do with your time and material things on this earth is to give them to Jesus, and (d) Nothing you have given up for God will be forgotten by God.

So how is it an indication of a cult that a church believes Jesus Christ?

How do you measure a church by the purely MATERIALISTIC success of its members?

I read great posts about what you have "LOST" in your lives, because you GAVE your time and resources to God. It is surely a paradox that we give these things THROUGH flawed and imperfect people, BUT GOD SEES IT AS A GIFT TO HIM. Entrusting our gifts to God to imperfect and flawed people REQUIRES GREATER FAITH and is a tougher test of faith for us.

Now, Maranatha was in a great panic about everything. (Partly because they really did believe that the end of the world was around the corner and the long term did not matter because there was no long term.)

Maranatha was stupid about these things. MCM chose the leaders on a campus, and then worked them to death, so that they flunked out of classes and were NO LONGER leaders on campus. THat was dumb. That is not about whether material success is better than spiritual success, but is short-term thinking versus long-term thinking. MCM was extremely short-sighted about almost everything.

However, simply because someone gave their time and energies to God via a flawed church is not a sign of abuse. IT IS A BADGE OF HONOR. And it will be a badge of honor throughout eternity, IF YOU DO NOT THROW IT AWAY.

[jonmoseley]

3) A great deal of the objection to EN / MSI / MCM is that the "Kingdom Now" theology is wrong. Edward Dalcour rants about that and other things.

There is a huge objection to this idea, by those who have completely different theological views.

4) Whether a Christian can be demon-oppressed or possessed seems to bother some people immensely. Why, I'm not sure, but this causes many to label EN a cult.

5) Are there apostles today? If Rice Broocks is called an apostle, some people bust a gasket, with fire coming out of their ears. To my mind, a pastor is like the captain of a ship, whereas as an apostle is like an admiral, having authority over MANY ships / churches. An apostle is a church planter who oversees more than one church.

The confusion is that just because someone is an admiral does not mean they are as great as Admiral Nelson. Just because someone is serving as an apostle DOES NOT mean they are claiming to be anyting remotely like the original 12 apostles.

Someone can be a preacher without claiming to be as great as Paul or Peter (who preached the Pentecost Sermon that arguably birthed the church). So why can't someone function as an apostle without presuming to be as great as John or Matthew?

[vanguard]

Apostle was discussed before.
2 Corinthians 12:12 (New International Version)
12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

We know very well that even the false prophets do perform signs and wonders. BUT according to scripture, A MARK OF AN APOSTLE HAVE SIGNS ,WONDERS and Miracles.

John the Baptist DID NOT perform any signs,wonders and miracles, so we are NOT looking for people who perform Signs and Wonders.

BUT one of the REQUIREMENT to BE AN APOSTLE he/she HAS TO HAVE SIGNS , WONDERS and MIRACLES . This is according to scriptures.
I do not believe in bypassing this scripture.

Somebody before who is close to Rice Brookes have confessed that Rice NEVER perform any signs and wonders and miracles.

Phil Bonasso was my former pastor, I was told by one of the senior pastor while I was there, GOD DOES NOT EVEN ANSWER THEIR PRAYERS. I was there for ten years. NO miracle, signs and wonders ever appear. When the senior pastor told me that God does not even answer their prayers THAT WOKE ME UP that something is wrong.

[vanguard]

God have a standard for AN APOSTLE I do not believe in LOWERING GOD'S Standard of an apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:12 (New International Version)


12The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

[jonmoseley]

6) Is church a democracy? MOST of the dissatisfaction on this Board seems to be that church leaders don't LISTEN to you. Oh dear.

Well, THEN! Let us make a catalog of all the churches out there who are just eager to have people tell them to change, and the church will change to suit your tastes?

Can't think of one? I can't either!

Try this: Walk into a Catholic Church and tell them you would like to discuss your ideas about how the Pope has it all wrong. I am sure they will eagerly listen to you and then send off a communique to Rome announcing that the Pope is all wrong! Will you let me know when that happens?

It is WRONG to attack one church, like Every Nation, for something that is true of *EVERY* church. It is wrong to ask of Every Nation something that NO church would do.

A church's leaders must make their own best judgments about their doctrine and how they will proceed. And if someone says they are wrong, BIBLICALLY they should listen. But ultimately they have an obligation before God to do what THEY think is correct. They know they might be wrong. But hopefully they are sincerely wrong, if they are wrong.

You say that Every Nation does not change its doctrine, its practices, and its organizations as you demand.

If you sincerely believe what you say, then continue to say it!

But if Every Nation comes to a conclusion that their way is correct, why do you imagine they should listen to you?

WHICH church can you point to that will change whatever you ask them to change?

[vanguard]

jon Mosley that is exactly what everybody is saying. EN IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE . And They do not listen either.

Even though EN themselves said that they will reform in their own communique. Thank you for confirming that.

[vanguard]

Thank you also for CONFIRMING THAT EN ARE A BUNCH OF LIARS.

Because they are the ones who said they are changing/reforming.

[jonmoseley]

I am not a member of EN, and I do not know anything about what they are doing about changing or reforming.

What I am saying is WHY DO YOU THINK THEY MUST change?

Is there any other church that will change because you demand it?

WHY should ONLY Every Nation have to change because some people, who are no longer members, demand that it change?

NO OTHER CHURCH would do that!

[mcmstaff78]

Jon simply tries to obfuscate abusive practices with a myriad of words. While it might be a categorical fallacy to say something like "abusers use nouns; therefore everyone who uses nouns is an abuser." But it is not a categorical fallacy to point out that abusers excuse their abuse by accusing those who reveal the abuse of being somehow in the wrong themselves.

Also, he fails to deal with my question but goes on a "rabbit trail" regarding theological underpinnings. Obviously, *every* religious organization has "theological underpinnings", but some organizations create those underpinnings as a way to support spiritually abusive practices. For example, the LDS "church" engaged in polygamy, which is an abusive practice toward both women and children. They had (some marginalized groups still have) a theological underpinning for it that simply perpetuated the practice until they decided they wanted statehood for Utah more than they wanted to continue to engage in polygamy.

Groups like EN engage in abusive control and manipulation of immature individuals. A theological underpinning of this would be their teaching on "spiritual covering". This is pretty much a "heads I win, tails you lose" proposition. For it asserts that the leader is only responsible for those he is in a "covering" relationship with, and since he is only in a "covering relationship" with those who support and agree with his abusive practices, there is no real accountability.

Oh, by the way, it is not "wrong" to ask people to "sacrifice" for Christ's sake. It is wrong to ask them to sacrifice what you are unwilling to and so that you may benefit and live a profligate lifestyle.

Always nice to have one more defender of spiritual abuse come along.

[jonmoseley]

7) HOW should a church deal with giving information to the congregation about leaders, governance decisions, and other members?

That sounds like a rather lame item, but it really is a hotbed of controversy and a huge problem in practice.

I think that Marantha had an excessive obssession with the DECORUM of not saying things in public.

Arguably one of the WORST decisions in Maranatha history was to NOT explain the break-up of the churches. Nature -- and fertile minds -- abhor a vaccuum. Into that vaccuum, everyone projeced their own personal feelings and grievances. So if God was trying to deal with Brother Bill about his anger that was the reason Maranatha broke up... see, there is nothing wrong with me! I was right all along. If God was trying to deal with Sister Sue about her materialism and love for things (and I knew one sister whom I respected greatly until she started chasing after a brotehr ONLY because he was both a doctor and a lawyer, spelling MONEY), then when Maranatha broke up it was See.. I was right. God wants me to live in luxury after all.

Everyone took their own issues and imagned that that was why Maranatha broke up. God was vindicating them. This lead to an explosion, causing everyone to fly apart in all directions.

Maranatha should have been much more HONEST and open about the break-up and other things. That would have limited the damage, even though everyone was free to leave... but leave with truth before them not with imagined issues the reason.

Now, today, a certain group of people here are all hot because they did not get a chance to read the NATIONAL INQUIRER version of Paul Daniel's adultery in their Church bulletin. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW! Many on this Board (implicitly) DEMAND that they hear all the sordid details. Where exactly did Paul Daniels "do it." Was it on the bed? On the floor? In the kitchen? What sexual positions? How long did each session last? Was it good for both of them or only Daniels?

You call it a COVER UP. Knowing Every Nation's leaders (some of them) I know that to them it is called DECORUM.

As I just indicated, I THINK THEY ARE WRONG to be so obsessed with decorum. I think it was one of the biggest mistakes MCM made, repeatedly.

However I can RESPECT their views on that.

I don't think that members of a congregation have a compelling need to hear the whole soap opera in all its details.

You can call this a "cover up."

But is it wrong? WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

[jonmoseley]

mcmstaff78: What I asked was that we DEBATE THESE ISSUES HONESTLY as Biblical issues, rather than as pretended scandals about EN or attempts to win that debate through cheap shots like calling EN a cult. I opposed the efforts to intimidate those who don't agree with you by threatening them with the dreaded "C" word if they do not conform to your point of view.

I SAY THE ABUSERS ARE THOSE who are trying to BLUDGEON people you don't agree with into adopting your Biblical interpretations.

So, mcmstaff78, you RESPOND by identifying all the more clearly why it matters whether a Biblical interpetation is TRUE or FALSE.

THAT IS THE QUESTION. And that is the question I urged everyone to focus upon. So the REAL question is... WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY?

Not, how many ways can we dream up to call EN a cult.

I asked for this discussion to be in:
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/25199.html?1161481207

YOU ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTION HERE, and that is important. There is no sense discussing something if you are not open to it. You were open to it.

So it ended up here instead.

As to responding to some of the early entries in actually discussing the Bible on these points, I will get a chance to think about that and join that discussion.

But first I am trying to answer your first question... how BURIED in your discussions are there really theological discussions and debates that are not being openly debated, hiding behind accusations of "cult."

[jonmoseley]

8) Are prophecies for today? Many of you, especially Tik's blog, portray personal prophecies and even corporate prophecies as evidence that Marantha was a cult and/or EN or MSI is now a cult.

Do you reject the prophetic ministry as being active today?

Can a legitimate church move in personal and/or corporate prophecy?

WHAT does the Bible say?

9) HOW should believers deal with conflicts and offenses, particularly wrongs committed by leaders?

Many of you say that because EN does not do what you say, or resolve problems in the manner that you prefer, THEREFORE IT IS A CULT.

Could it be that you simply have different ideas about what is CORRECT for a church to do in those situations?

10) Is it possible to HEAR from God today?

This sounds like an amazingly simple point but if you read Tik's narrative and many points on this Board we hear the idea that (a) church leaders were telling you what God was saying, BUT (b) YOU were completely unable to hear from God yourself.

Much of what Tik and you describe makes absolutely no sense IF you have the capacity to HEAR FROM GOD YOURSELF.

I believe that you are implicitly assuming that you are INCAPABLE of hearing from God personally, and AS A RESULT when a leader told you that God wants this or God wants that, you never imagined yourself ASKING GOD to clarify this for you, to explain it to you, to guide you, etc., etc.

I am struck by the complete lack of any prayer for guidance, any listening for God's voice, and seeking God's wisdom, NOTHING in what you describe.

So now that you have walked away from that type of ministry, and called a cult, DO YOU (or do you not, you tell me) NOW REJECT the idea of God speaking to you personally and directly?

What is the truth, from the Bible, for today? Let's debate it openly, not call people a "cult" because THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR SELF-IMPORTANT ROYAL HIGHNESS.

[wildwood_]

Jon, you are now just playing with your words and phrases to toss and sling them against the folks here. There's no order in your heart or peace, only your own confustion and bitterness and we do not accept them unto our hearts. So keep your bitterness away and keep your pride away. The Lord gives place to the Humble and mercy to those who give mercy. Take your condemnation else where to sow the seed. There's no bitter harvest here to reap. Only Joy, the Joy of Serving the Risen Savior and Knowing that above all things... Our Lord is Able. Yes, He most truly speaks today and He moves in wonders too. We are His Children, The Sheep of His Pastrue...He Knows Our Voice...

The question that does worry me a bit at this moment is...well, Jon, who are you? And what Master do you serve?

[40days40years]

Come on wildwood he serves E/N. Look he is the perfect choice for E/N to send here. Not leadership, posting to two year old threads he posts stuff like: This sounds like an amazingly simple point but if you read Tik's narrative and many points on this Board we hear the idea that (a) church leaders were telling you what God was saying, BUT ---- But what??? that is it. Now you are doing a good job after that Forword purge, your sweating a bit, maybe not you but those who sent you. Now go back and get that cookie and give out a little squeel like .....wwwweeeeeeeeeee! Jon your making the board stronger, thanks.

[40days40years]

Come on wildwood he serves E/N. Look he is the perfect choice for E/N to send here. Not leadership, posting to two year old threads he posts stuff like: This sounds like an amazingly simple point but if you read Tik's narrative and many points on this Board we hear the idea that (a) church leaders were telling you what God was saying, BUT ---- But what??? that is it. Now you are doing a good job after that Forword purge, your sweating a bit, maybe not you but those who sent you. Now go back and get that cookie and give out a little squeel like .....wwwweeeeeeeeeee! Jon your making the board stronger, thanks.

[dust]

40/40
SOmeone STOLD Wildwood's Identity. Post 272. THIS IS NOT HER.

Everyone be aware...there is probably a group of them, stealing identities, having conversations with themself.

[another_brick_in_the_wall]

thanks for the warning on identities, dust. pretty disturbing.

as i recall, altheia left this board last year due to real-life intimidations from EN members in his/her area.

jon: EN is a cult. EN is a cult.

what you are experiencing is shock, denial and heated emotions after you discovered this board exists. it is disconcerting to you to be faced with the reality that you were a member of a cult. you allowed yourself to get swooned by the
power, hierarchy, spritual treadmill. and what grates your nerves is that you were duped...and you didn't realize it even after you moved on.

i bet you are still suffering from the repercussions of your time in EN.

post traumatic stress disorder is common among former members of a cult.

i suggest that you purchase and read several books on cults by former cult members in order to understand your confusion and anger.

Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
(a former member of the Int'l COC - very similar structure to Maranatha/EN)

http://www.amazon.com/Twisted-Scriptures-Mary-Alice-Chrnalogar/dp/0310234085/sr=8-1/qid=1161550971/ref=sr_1_1/102-6750392-0608144?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse
by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-6750392-0608144?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=spiritual+abuse (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/102-6750392-0608144?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=spiritual+abuse)

Or any other books that has been added to this thread found under "recovery".

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/18376.html?1152466582

other recommendations: "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Snapping" among many others.