Social Structure of EN Social Cult or Church due for Reform [Archive]

oldguy (oldguy)

10-07-2005, 06:38 PM

From what I’ve read, it sounds like a few people have experienced withdrawal symptoms as if they had been part of a cult. Or more like leaving a co-dependent relationship. Let me explain.
You see, I don’t find anything fundamentally wrong in EN theology. If I read the posts right, the experiences seem to have more to do with unhealthy leader/follower relationships. Maranatha fostered a spiritual parenting philosophy which went far beyond a Paul and Timothy relationship. Bob Weiner was the “dad” to most of the leaders. But when the “kids” grew up, Bob had trouble letting go. Hence, the dissolution or “kids moving out of the house.” I know, cause I was one of them.

Some leaders were able to adjust relationally. Others were unable to see the dysfunction. When Morningstar (EN) formed, it was a mixed bag. There are many great pastors in EN who serve among the people who understand proper boundaries. From the posts, I gather there are a few who need help with unloading baggage from the past. You can call them codependent leaders. Let me know if the below rings any bells. All I did was insert “leader” for spouse, parent, child, boss, dog, cat, etc. from common literature on codependency – not very original, but I try.

Symptoms of a codependent leader
- Excessive "mothering" or "fathering" of followers, an overdeveloped sense of responsibility beyond God given boundaries
- Drawn to followers who "need" them or who have needs they can "fix"
- Preoccupation with "fixing" needy followers and drawing worth from their dependence
- Tendency to bale "children" out of difficulties rather than letting them struggle and grow
- Excessive excusing or rationalizing of "children's" shortcomings or sins when confronted by others (identity wrapped up in "children's" portrayed image)
- Has tendency to control and to "love you and have a wonderful plan for your life"
- Addicted to attention from "children", and a desire to keep the dependent relationship as-is rather than letting it mature (i.e. letting the kids grow up and move out of the house)
- Uses humiliation or threats as tactics to deal with (bring under control) non-compliant followers i.e. those who aren't "needy" of them or who don't need to be "parented"
- Finally, rejects those who won't be "parented" or those who have grown up and out of the dependent relationship

Symptoms of a codependent follower
- Addicted to leader i.e. dependent on leader for direction and answers (vs. seeking confirmation & counsel)
- A preoccupation with what the leader might think that nearly rivals a concern for what God thinks
- Suppresses own beliefs and opinions in favor of those of the leader
- A history of codependent family situations (i.e. transference of codependence from parent to leader)
- Guilt feelings when differences are had with the leader, gives in to the leader too readily out of fear of losing approval

aletheia (aletheia)

10-07-2005, 07:17 PM

oldguy - "I don’t find anything fundamentally wrong in EN theology."

Many posting here will differ with your statement. If you have the time to wade through the myriad of posts on this board, you will see many topics covered from the Trinity to EN's worldview [which influences EN's systematic theology (or lack thereof) and practice].

Speakword - thanks for starting this thread and for your great "Nicolaitan" posts on the TF thread.

peace,
aletheia

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-07-2005, 08:34 PM

Oldguy, When you look from the outside, you will find nothing wrong with EN. But its when you join in, thats when the problem starts.
Jesus said, For Pagans Exercise their Authority over you BUT NOT SO WITH YOU...
In other words, Those EN leaders were not suppose to do everything that you just have listed. Those are PAGANISTIC Practice according to Jesus.
Like Ulyankee have said it before and I have said it in the past. EN have removed Jesus as the HEAD of the church, they have replaced the church govermental leadership as the HEAD OF THE CHURCH, to the people.
If you could look into the bylaws of MSI/EN. It clearly states that the Apostolic team is the Head of the Church. They said it themselves.
Only Senior Pastors have access to that Bylaws. Unfortunately, those senior pastors did not even read the bylaws, they just sign the dotted line, they want to join MSI/EN. If you take it to a lawyer, they will state the same thing. MSI/EN are in CONTROL. And as a pastor, you lose your right to your church and can be removed at anytime without cause.
Read the bylaws. Removing TF or Phil Bonasso won't solve the problem . Its on the system. First thing that needed to change is those guidelines and bylaws of MSI/EN.

sameo (sameo)

10-08-2005, 05:35 AM

"The Discipling Dilemma" Chapter 10

Smith, Chuck. "Shepherding or Dictatorship? Christian Possession," The
Answer for Today, 6, 1979, pp. 1-5.
A brief, but useful, article by one who was a prime early leader in the "Jesus People" movement of the 1960s. Smith talks about the problem, "II you want to buy or sell your house, it's imperative that you first consult your elder. . . . The same is true if you want to buy or sell a car or TV, or if you want to change your job. If you want to go on a trip, these shepherds will tell you where you can go, how long you can stay, and when to be back. . . . If you desire to move to another locality, they'll tell you whether or not you may have their blessings and permission. . . . The elders have set up an apostleship. . . . On many occasions these shepherds have told a person exactly whom he or she was to marry, how much and when to give, what books to read, and which tapes to listen to. . . . It is absolutely imperative to obey your elder--even if he is wrong. . . . What you do will be right, because you've done it in obedience to your elder." (p. 2).

Does this ring a bell to anyone? SameO

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-08-2005, 08:23 AM

When I started courting my wife in '97 she was shocked to hear me say "let's go see Pastor X to tell him we are courting". Why I felt I had to submit that information and receive "covering" baffles me today. Part of it came from my own insecurity and part from a previous relationship experience in the church and the subsequent handling of it. How it affected people's perceptions of me and my place and position in the church.

I am not sure that the root of ministerial codependency can all be traced down to one man such as Weiner, though. It is possible that it did pervade thinking and became a culture in places. I am not sure. The Maranatha vets could tell us more.

Looking at Oldguy's points on codependency I can see how I grew out of each point as I matured as a person over the years I was there. That still does not excuse it.

Was Weiner such a bad man that he caused all this? Was the codepedency engineered. Was it used and poeople manipulated purposely using it?
I would like to move this discussion forward into what I see as there being a system of patronage in some places. Bear with me. I await further comment.

oldguy (oldguy)

10-08-2005, 11:22 AM

Bylaws, hmmm. My understanding of bylaws is for legal purposes (hiring, firing, etc.), but are usually not used on a day to day basis or preached from the pulpit. Boring. Until the government recognizes Jesus as CEO of an organization (what a day that will be), people will have to be in that slot on paper. Most churches would probably have people at the top of the organization list in their bylaws. Only a guess - research anyone? What leaders in EN have signed or not signed is unknown, so I don’t know if “swallow and follow” applies. (sorry for being flippant – after reading posts for 5 hours straight, you might be a little punchy, too!)

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-08-2005, 02:46 PM

Oldguy,

In light of the control and domination exerted by Weiner et al you would think that there would be more autonomy etc amongst the churches. Having seen the document churches sign in becoming part of EN the arguement that it is just a legal document flies out the window. Full power over every church can be exerted by the IAT at any time.It is as simple as that.

I believe that every church has some lack in its doctrine somewhere. The idea that EN believes it has the best, the most researched and the slickest operation when it comes to teaching or indoctrinating its members does not mean that there will never be a problem. I for one do not believe EN to be a cult. By definition it is hard to pin down what a cult is anyway.

The label of cult has been applied to Mother Maranatha and also the EN by not only disgruntled people moving away from codependent dysfunction but by outside observers as well. No matter how hard you try you, can not escape the fact that problems within the church and problems people have with EN outside of the church can not be all examined on their own individual merits.

There must be a broader explaination for it. I repeat that I do not think it to be a cult, but a church in need of rapid reform and reconstitution.

In the next short while more leaders within EN will be exposed as womanisers, wolves and thieves. A purge of a few individuals again is not going to solve the issues. I have just done a 3 day detox, but in the process omitted to fast and to drink enough water. Some impurities were ejected, but the job was really not done as there was not a proper change in not only my attitude, but also my behaviour and habits. ( A meeting of heart and mind.)

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-08-2005, 03:38 PM

OLDGUY,
I have read the bylaws and guidelines of MSI/EN and it is disturbing. It will not be preached on pulpit. All Pastors who wanted to join MSI/EN are required to sign the bylaw and guidelines. Thats MSI/EN law. Those in america,europe and Africa have signed it. BUT not in the philippines. The bylaws is not about hiring and firing. It also states they can use the money(offerings and tithes) the way they wanted. It also states that they decide how much money they should make. It also states a pastor can be removed with or without cause. This is just some of it that is written.

As I said, the bylaws and guidelines shows who is in control. I do strongly believe that all MSI/EN regular members should read it.

(Message edited by ginger1 on October 08, 2005)

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-08-2005, 03:45 PM

If a current MSI/EN pastor even try to leave of
MSI/EN , they have to remember they are still bound to the bylaws and guidelines of MSI/EN.

so when a pastor join in, they are joined for LIFE ! They lose all their RIGHTS.

At anytime, MSI/EN Apostolic team can take over your churches, whether you like it or not.

The only way out of MSI/EN is when there is a tax evasion happening in MSI/EN. Then all of that bylaws and guidelines is considered null and void.

coppertree (coppertree)

10-08-2005, 03:46 PM

Hi oldguy, I can appreciate what you are attempting, but the case of nothing over ten years..as you say in your post. You may need to look at some history; as in the review of the VLI school teachings, one finds the dean as what is called old school Mananatha. There has been no repentance of odd doctrinal beliefs here, but rather a strengthing of these firmly held thoughts. Ul noted this occuring within one and one-half years ago in her church.}

oldguy (oldguy)

10-08-2005, 04:30 PM

I agree that problems in practice exist among different churches across EN, but not wholesale. A general condemnation of EN because of the experiences out of 4-6 churches in the USA is unwarranted.

Ginger - We may not like the bylaws, but there is nothing illegal or unbiblical in how they are set up. Someone has to control the money and do the hiring and firing.

I agree with Speakword that theologically, evidence of calling EN a cult is lacking. I'm not saying that some behavior by some individual leaders cannot be considered cult-like. I know it would be foolish and irresponsible to ignore the dozens of experiences posted. My own experiences have run the gamut, too. But, to generalize and even demonize the entire EN ministry on the small percentage of bad experiences (vs. all the good ones) is equally irresponsible. It would be like calling my family bad because my 5 year old is going through a season of acting up. ***I'm not trivializing the posts, anyone with a 5 year old knows this is a tough timehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Please, let's stick to facts. The real benefit of this site (besides the cathartic relief many experience) is to point out areas EN should pay attention to as part of the body of Christ. Hopefully, like looking in a mirror to see which hairs are out of place, observations made by posters will be taken into account by EN leadership.

I love this ministry and have experienced God's blessing through it. And I'm pained when I read of the abuses. I want to see changes and see apologies made for wrongs committed.

Gang, keep posting and keep it redemptive!

(Message edited by Oldguy on October 08, 2005)

oldguy (oldguy)

10-08-2005, 04:39 PM

Gang,

Please produce the documents on the specifics. If no doctrinal items are produced, then I suggest we move the discussion to what kind of renewal/reformation would best benefit EN.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-08-2005, 07:49 PM

Dear new-oldguy,
it seems one constant on this board is a new arrival fresh with vigor who either derides our notions or experiences as some form of hysteria or dismisses a pandemic as a mere sniffle. Documentation aplenty populates these threads. It is unfortunate for us old-timers if evidence of error had existed years ago in similar fashion we would've had a chance to effect change. To watch the continuation of those same abuses is enough to provoke some to action-to see them become more onerous and widespread is chilling. It may be possible for your dismissive air to comfort you on some level having been a part for such a long time. Puzzling to me is the continuation of a caste system which subordinates the church under the guise of inspired government, yet is evidently if not rife, certainly tainted by corruption. To sublimate this particular area of concern as something that needs a little tidying-up is as disingenuous as insisting that that bad ole Maranatha stuff was neatly disposed of when Bob Weiner was shown the door.
John

If I'm offensive in my tone I plead concern for kids and others who don't have the station to fend for themselves in this ministry.

aletheia (aletheia)

10-08-2005, 08:11 PM

JRJ - "To watch the continuation of those same abuses is enough to provoke some to action-to see them become more onerous and widespread is chilling."

Today, I was reading up on Edmund Burke, the 18th century Irish-born Brit. political philosopher, well-known for his quote:
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

So many times I have wanted to shake the dust off my feet and leave this MSI/EN board, but the Holy Spirit keeps compelling me to come back to defend the truth and pray for or minister to the wounded.

peace,
aletheia

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-08-2005, 08:19 PM

Oldguy,
Ulyankee have posted some of documents months ago. I would love to share your optimism that EN need changes. I have seen changes within Steve Murrell church. I was there, it was legalistic and controlling, but the way Steve Murrell did it was a radical type of changes. That I do not think any of MSI/EN leadership wants it.

Steve Murell have deported some americans back to america, and also chase them out of the church because of their legalism and control. He rebuke them publicly, that cause humiliation to some of them(this is during maranatha times). Steve preach hard against legalism, control , pride and religious spirit. It was non stop preaching.
There was a corporate repentance among the people and public heartfelt apologies of filipino pastors to the people and change started from there. It was not gradual but a radical change like a person being born again.
Finances is an open book, anybody can walk in and see it.
A true repentance is a radical change.

Do you think MSI/EN can handle that ? If MSI/EN can handle the humiliation, and shame, with a heart change. If the MSI/EN leaders can humble themselves Then yes, I do believe that MSI/EN can change. Currently its all band-aid. Change of doctrines, change of VLI teaching materials , change of leadership etc. Inner healing and deliverance.

I would love to see MSI/EN change. I really do, I have a lot of friends in there that I still hang out with. And I felt bad for them because there is no radical change in their churches and some of the churches are dying. Some dead. No miracles. God does not even answer the prayers of the pastors, they told me so !

I would love to see miracles start happening again, God answering their prayers, people getting healed. Those are supposed to be a norm for us christians. ANd thats a norm in my current life ! Because that prove God is alive in Me ! Those MSI/EN churches are supposed to have those type of expriences! But no, the best they can do is speak in tongues and believe that God is moving in their midst ! Just because they have charismatic songs and some goosebumps , these churches think God is moving.

I have seen miracles, healings, demons, Heavenly things in my life and in In my current church, Apostle Cannistraci, those are NORM. So I know God is moving, His Spirit is moving. Steve Murrell's church is that way too.

So unless MSI/EN leaders can humble themselves and repent , I do not see any changes thats going to happen.

aletheia (aletheia)

10-08-2005, 09:05 PM

SameO - how interesting to read your post and link with the Chuck Smith 1979 article on shepherding in 1979. From '78-'79 I was living close to Chuck's church in another ministry denounced for shepherding (not Maranatha). Probably much of Chuck's quote has similarities with the former Maranatha, but only some of it might pertain to present day EN, depending on the individual church leadership.

peace,
aletheia

coppertree (coppertree)

10-08-2005, 11:39 PM

Hi Old guy- I would think wholesale would be the dean, who teaches everyone, and comments on what they do do in En.}

oldguy (oldguy)

10-09-2005, 06:25 AM

Ouch!

John - I apologize if my post came off as to invalidate people’s experience. In fact, I know several to be true first hand. The focus was on EN literature that would document cult beliefs. No more, no less.

Ginger - I read Ulyankee’s notes and do not disagree that an individual pastor could have preached those things, but that is not official EN doctrine. Like I said earlier, there are pastors all over the map. I guess they have too much freedom?! I agree with you that a serving of humble pie would be healthy. And that would go for anybody, myself included.

Coppertree - I certainly, along with others, didn’t embrace some of those teachings. However, there can be unity with diversity around the cross of Jesus.

Titus - the Swedenborg stuff is weird no doubt, but I wouldn’t apply it to EN. The 4-6 number was just a guess based on what I could deduce from the posts. It could be more. However, it is not every EN church. Remember, not all EN churches have Maranatha roots, which is why there is hope for change.

Sorry for the forcefulness of my words. I know if we were to meet face-to-face we would probably have fun and the conversation would be much lighter. Some of you may have met me before and already know I have a wacked sense of humor. But I’m in good company, after all, it was John who first introduced me to mop-n-glow as a hair care product. LOL!

(Message edited by Oldguy on November 22, 2005)

coppertree (coppertree)

10-09-2005, 06:45 AM

Hi Old guy -This dean is still dean, and teaches all those classes , and new pastors. No one has recanted, anything.}

oldguy (oldguy)

10-09-2005, 06:47 AM

Please, do not write off all EN leadership as bad, just as we here on this site would not want to be generalized and marginalized as the “fellowship of the embittered” and ultimately ignored by EN leadership.

On the flip side, EN leaders would do well to read the posts. Where there is smoke, there must be fire. The number of posts reminding us of past wrongs is analogous to the sins of slavery. Why are the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons out there still able to play the race card? Because the black community in America has yet to receive an adequate apology from the white community for past wrongs. What do you suppose would happen if I were to say to my black brother, “Just get over it. Slavery happened a long time ago and is no longer being practiced. Don’t be so bitter.” I’d rightfully be chastised for insensitivity and arrogance. Now, just plug in “Maranatha” or “abuse” for slavery. What do you think?

In EN, Brett Fuller recognizes this and has plans to build a memorial to the slaves who suffered unjustly. In like manner I think it would also be wise for EN leadership to build a “memorial” apology in writing for those who have suffered unjustly through Maranatha (though to a far lesser extent than our black americans). I’m white and wasn’t involved in slavery, but applaud and support Brett’s effort for healing. Why not do the same with a published open letter at the EN website acknowledging the sins of our “fathers” and our own in EN? It’s not like a secret (though it may be that elephant in the living room we discussed in a previous thread!). Is it risky? You bet. But it is less of a risk than living in denial and having our own members learn of the problems from other sources. Kind of like sex education – better from the family than from the locker room!

EN leaders, here is an appeal to reason. Let’s not hide our past anymore, but come clean, even if we didn’t buy into or participate in those wrongs. And for those of you who unwittingly caused pain to others, get the monkey off your back and apologize. Send a letter or make a phone call of apology. It’s amazing how blessed it is to do the right thing. A clean conscience is a wonderful thing!

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-09-2005, 11:05 AM

A broadblanket apology for the sins of Maranatha is not going to be a panacea to all the problems of EN. Rice glosses over his time in Maranatha in his writings and again this week a student leader from a South African church reprinted one of those quaint histories he was given to show that EN and Maranatha have nothing in common except for some pastors. It really comes off badly. In his church alone there a still at least 2 ex maranantha pastors who both had to bothkiss Weiner's you know what beofre being married.

In South Africa our local apostle ruled like a tyrant for years and got away with affairs because his 2ic, a former Maranatha Allstar was not able to keep this brother in check and neither was his fellow elders able to check him beofore it was too late. They have the temerity to teach accountability issues to other people then. What about valueing ones' name and word above things?

For nearly 10 years the church suffered because of a lack of truth and real repentence. It took a pastors rebellion and the exposure of financial irregularities and then possible scandal of other church leaders and formal authorities stepping in again to intervene etc to force the church to expose him and fire him. When this leading apostle of C Peter Wagners's board was finally hanged by his own noose in Nashville he was done away with queitly.

You can tar and feather another EN renegade apostle and chain him to a Walmart door for all to see, but unless the deeper issues are confronted and confession and repentence takes place then what's the point. Untie him and take him back and redeploy him he probably makes enough money for you anyway.

In South Africa our white president apologised for apartheid, but until the victims could see real change, real justice and truth coming out in meetings after meetings then it was just a farce. I was amazed to see how family after family just wanted to hear the truth and were satisfied with that. No vengeance and bitterness. No desire to exact money, just the truth.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-09-2005, 01:41 PM

Oldguy,
A good bit of water has flowed over the dam of my life as apparently is the case with you. I remember the summer of 1989 after I'd been asked to leave and after a month or so began to attend Jack Hayford's church. I also was invited to participate with folks in Maranatha that summer at parties and such. It was a time of incongruity to be sure but one glaring dissimilarity which has stuck with me is the orientation of the leadership of those two entities. One was idiomatic, ego-centric in that the persona of the ministry mattered more than the consequence of what was done. I compared this with the first Sunday I sat in a meeting where Jack Hayford spoke after being on vacation, my mouth dropped open. He was in the midst of his sermon and forgot a portion of the point he was making and engaged in a little ministerial patter to vamp while he returned to the podium to steal a glance at his notes. He continued on for a moment and then chuckled and gave it up. He "confessed" his predicament, and spent the next few moments in endearing the congregation in some humor at his expense, his humility, the mien of a father was genuine. The persona of this bunch was one of nurturing, of Jesus' admonition to Peter and every pastor since-"Feed my lambs."

Later I re-married and became an instant dad along with being a husband my lambs needed caring, they needed to know they were safe. Importantly they needed to know they didn't need to be safe from me a circumstance I find is an unfortunate reality in our culture regardless of our persuasions religiously. Paul's letter to the Ephesians states that we are of the household of God by His making. That through Jesus, not rite, ceremony or circumstance we are brought near through His blood. We cheapen that act when Christians are told, whether it's implied or literally, that we must earn our keep; justify our existence in order to be included in the church.

What EN is made of and based on will be evidenced soon enough, prescience of those involved to examine themselves as well will tell the tale of EN's future. A year ago when I started posting on this website I decided to use my name, I thought it unfair to take issue with Rice or Phil or the ministry under a screen name. Though no longer a part of this particular ministry, I am an older, hopefully wiser member of the Body of Christ.

Speaking of idiomatic, my kids, now grown women know well the vocabulary of hair and floor care products and other incongruities and their attendant grimaces when treated to them.
John

lc_20 (lc_20)

10-09-2005, 02:08 PM

oldguy, My experiences had nothing to do with maranatha. So, that kind of slave memorial appology could only possibly work if it covered the abuses up to the present and not only the abuses of maranatha and if it was followed by some evidence of significant heart felt change - potentially starting with the bylaws. Say a recent college grad can't get a break into their profession of interest because it is predominently white and they are black. So, she/he ends up working at mcdonalds - are they going to feel any better about their situation if a memorial goes up? My experiences with EN were post-maranatha. What they were is a part of the problem. But, what they are now can't be fully explained away by what they were in the past.

oldguy (oldguy)

10-09-2005, 02:27 PM

John,

Pastor Jack is a gift and those in his congregation are fortunate.

I myself have chosen not to use my name as my tag. I chose "Oldguy" cause, well you suppose right I'm old! Maybe when there is that change I'm hoping for takes place I'll use my real name. Right now it would be a distraction to the discussion on this board. I guess I'm kind of a curmudgeon sticking to the doctrine discussion on whether EN is a cult. Sure, beliefs impact behavior and hence why some are not willing to parse these out separately.

If EN continues on as a ministry, changes will indeed need to be made in organization culture or it will end up like Maranatha. Pressure will build up until one church decides it is more of a liability to be associated with EN. Then another church will resign, followed by another.

Like Luke Skywalker's optimism for Darth Vader, I still see good in EN and that it will turn from the dark side of the practices many have indicated in their posts. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

lc_20 (lc_20)

10-09-2005, 03:28 PM

I think we have discussed the possibilty of churches resigning from EN before. How does a church go about "resigning" from EN? Once they join in and sign the bylaws, EN can remove any pastor for any reason. I have seen a few churches join in to have their pastor staff shuffled around immediately so that people loyal to the EN inner-circle are in place to know if a church is even thinking about resigning. I think it is more likely that individual members of churches will have to move on and leave what they built behind when they want out. Since the bylaws give them no ability to leave as a church. I think it will be more likely that churches will drop members until they fail financially instead of resigning. Once they have no money, maybe EN will let them go. oldguy, I am impressed with your optimism though.

j2theperson (j2theperson)

10-09-2005, 04:43 PM

***Coppertree - if you mean Jed, you are correct. Leo has been gone (sabbatical) for a year.***

Jed who?

Thanks http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-09-2005, 04:58 PM

Leo has gone sabbatical ??? What did he do now ?? Every person who went on sabbatical has always did something wrong.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-09-2005, 07:01 PM

Dear Old,
tag or no the discussion is important, I am encouraged to participate and encourage others to do so as well because it brings freedom in the end. I'm in the middle of Sunday afternoon honeydos so I'll check back in later. Since I aint Claire Voyant its been great catching up with you whoever you are.
John

aletheia (aletheia)

10-10-2005, 12:45 AM

oldguy - "Leo has been gone (sabbatical) for a year." Do you know where, why, when he left and if he's still in Every Nation?

This summer I saw a large pile of Leo Lawson's teaching tapes sitting on a table in an empty room. How interesting...

Could it be that he would not recant Modalism?

His parting reminds me of a conversation I had with a Russian military attache this summer on how failing Soviet despots were "sent on holiday" en route to Siberia...

So. Paul is gone. Greg is gone. Tony is gone. Phil's church is on the verge of closing and rumor has it that he might be gone. Hmm...
Did I miss someone?

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-10-2005, 01:19 AM

Alethia, one more . Rice Brookes. He is next. I am just waiting for Phil to step down or get kick out because of the finances. But definitely, Rice Brookes is next in line.

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-10-2005, 02:03 AM

Titus, I am just guessing, I think Phil has some followers in EN. You have to remember , he would not have gotten so far with those finances unless there are people protecting him and covering his back for several years. But After the sex scandal and the finances, he really need to step down.
And usually they will pay him for the next 6 more months then they let go. Thats usually how it work. It is weird, it has been a week and I have not heard anything yet.

sameo (sameo)

10-10-2005, 02:30 AM

Oldguy-what a cunning, clever old guy you are! Really now....Don't you really just want ex-members to feel ashamed for "whining" by having us compare our experience to "slavery?" Knowing that we will go "Wait, we didn't have it THAT bad!" once again someone tries to make us out to be nothing more than rebellious, complainers. If you think we are just after an apology you really don't get it. I think until there are NO more cults we will be talking. Maybe until there is no more prejudice the black people will be talking. Although I really shouldn't and can't speak for their experience, nor would I dare compare myself to their tragic injustice.

Recently I was burglarized. I felt violated. Someone stole my belongings inside my own house. That's more an accurate comparison for me....that of burglary...a thief. IN Maranatha my dreams and goals were taken away from me, my right to see my own biological family when I wanted to was stolen from me. My college education-GONE! My RIGHT to make my own personal choices and THINK on my own-no longer allowed. Stolen. Alot of my freedoms were taken from me. Friendships with my old friends had to be dropped(Who happened to be true christians-although NOT to Maranatha based only on the fact that they weren't members of Maranatha.) I was spiritually violated. God's not going to bring destruction and death to His children IF they leave Maranatha/MSI/EN. Yet, that was prophesied over my friends when they left, by a top leader. My peace of mind was stolen, my trust in spiritual leaders was stolen. My friendships and my church family-taken away when I left Maranatha. Simply because I no longer went to that fellowship. Shunned.

For a long time after the guy broke into my home I couldn't sleep at night. I felt shaky, and faced fears, and lack of peace. It took time to feel stronger. Immediately after he left my home that night I felt a rage I never knew I was capable of. HE had come face to face with my own child.(inside my home) Too close to "Mama Bear's cub." IN a way that's how the parents of cult members feel. Don't mess with MY child. Imagine a parent being kept from seeing their children because they(the parents) aren't in Maranatha.(And Maranatha USING GOD to LIE and instill fear in the people to keep them there) And having been fed lies as a member(Scare tactics, deceptions)-that God would punish us if we disobeyed the elders. What a crock!!! I'm sorry.

So, anyway, Oldguy. I'm not Black, and I wasn't a slave. I don't think it's respectful to them to try and put me in their shoes. I don't think it's respectful for you to make me feel ashamed for having not been in their shoes...and for trying to make us(On this board) feel ashamed for our hurts, and feelings and experiences. Imagine what God is thinking knowing that so many of us can no longer even stand the thought of "church" of any kind. Because of having something stolen from us. I don't want nor need an apology from Maranatha leaders anymore than I need an apology from that burglar. I just hope that the abuses stop...just like I hope the burglar stops his stealing. That's all. SameO

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

10-10-2005, 03:52 AM

oldguy--

For what it is worth, I have done a fair amount of research and have not found anything amiss in the EN stated theology. The caveats I will add, so as to preclude re-entering this debate, is that (1) I have a charismatic, God-given purpose, victorious church theology and (2) doctrinal mechanics do not ensure that there will not be sin issues, such as immorality and control problems a la Tony Fetchel et.al..

If you don't find a problem with EN stated theology, it is probably because you agree with it. Some on this board have a problem with that theology, many more have been hurt justly or unjustly by members of the ministry.

I believe good changes are on the way and already in progress. But only time will tell.

--SB
(thecymbrogi (at symbol) thecymbrogi.com)

sameo (sameo)

10-10-2005, 04:38 AM

Aletheia-thx for commenting regarding my post of Chuck Smiths article. Yes, that was Maranatha exactly back when I was there from 1975-76 to 1983. But as Bruce Harpel said in an old Christianity Today interview there were alot of abuses until 1985.(and from the sounds of it after 85' too) I just happened to be there through it all. SameO

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-10-2005, 01:05 PM

Cymbrogi,
not to beat a dead horse...if you see the theology of EN as acceptable to you but some of the behavior otherwise are you taking steps to correct this. The reason I ask is because it would appear the impetus for the abusive behavior lies in some arcana of theology-that it is somehow justified or maybe excused. The gulf that exists between clergy and laity or course isn't new I think it is a constant point of tension, the dynamics of which need strength on both sides. Tension isn't always a bad thing in my book I think in some cases it leads to balance, it also keeps us older folks engaged. We seek an equilibrium of sorts it is human nature to do so, after having been around for a while we learn to exist-at least I did. Accountability is a two way street indeed particularly for older believers-elders who have not only an interest but a responsibility for guiding the church and its members.
John

oldguy (oldguy)

10-10-2005, 03:13 PM

Sameo,

I guess I’m not as cunning as you credit me. The point of the slavery analogy was that if a wrong has been committed, it should not be ignored, but apologies should be extended and restitution made if possible, too.

I won’t offer anything trite in response to your experiences in Maranatha, though you do have my condolences. I had someone very dear to me have their education/career altered because of a Maranatha leader’s decision for that person’s life. I estimate it cost that person thousands and years that will never be recovered.

It sounds like the leader in your case violated several of your boundaries. Bad things happen when leaders usurp authority outside their sphere. The sphere of authority in the church is limited to preaching the Word, missions coordination, church planting, conducting corporate meetings, excommunication of those committing sin in the church community, officiating at weddings and funerals, and church administration. Anything else should be considered advice and counsel based on the minister’s life experience, not position. A member is not obligated to follow advice, nor should a minister feel the need to enforce counsel when it is outside his/her authority.

I’m not saying don’t seek counsel and advice from experienced leaders and older believers. It would be foolish not to. Today you probably recognize that to allow others to make decisions for you is irresponsible. It was hard to see that back then. Many pastors taught about authority without differentiating between the different spheres of family, business, societal, politics, and church. Some even reasoned that if Jesus is Lord and that if He has delegated authority to the Church, that they as leaders had say in all areas of a member’s life. They became benevolent dictators.

But this arbitrary rulership has problems (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely). If a member did not follow the counsel given by the church leader, rebellion was sited and action was taken. Many of the posts I combed through seemed to testify of abuse from this same modis operandi in Maranatha and in some EN leadership.

Such power is intoxicating. It clouds judgment. I have to admit that the honor and respect a leader is given is a real ego inflator at the expense of members (note stratification). It is human nature (or fallen nature?) to take advantage of a privileged position. But not right, nor justified.

The good news is that a large portion of EN pastors are waking up to smell the coffee and are showing restraint from being dictatorial. A little late for you and my friend, but at least others won’t suffer from this type of abuse.

coppertree (coppertree)

10-10-2005, 04:53 PM

Hi Oldguy, Thank you for your post about power. If you search original documents and reports, getting into what C.Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, et all are about. You will see that, the power problems and others come from odd doctrine and a gaggle of commonly held beliefs. These beliefs are not easily demonstrated with a scriptural basis; nor are they all communicated to the leitiy by the priests who are in control.}

aletheia (aletheia)

10-10-2005, 04:55 PM

"It was in his apostle role that all of this allegedly happened"

It was also in a so-called apostolic role that Paul Daniels fell into sin. I do pray Daniels repents and is restored to God and his wife Jenny, not only for the salvation of his soul and marriage, but also that God's holy Name will be honored in EVERY NATION of the world.

Oldguy - any answer for the questions regarding Leo Lawson on my post to you yesterday (10/9/05)? Thanks.

peace,
aletheia

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-10-2005, 05:07 PM

Oldguy,
I reccomend Swiffer now.

The Buryin'-n-Marryin' clergy and the division of labor theology of Dennis Peacock. Two and a half years ago a friend and former pastor gave our bunch this exegesis about the cause of the dark ages. The church overextended itself and set up an oligarcy which not only attended to the affairs of state, but fought wars and involved itself in economics. Sort of dominion theology lite with three areas of influence Spiritual, Economic, and Political to be undertaken by Christians-the church. Differing areas of authority under some form of system of governance, it still hinges on the notion of government, of a hierarchy. I appreciate your noting the problems that exist and your understanding of them. If the pastorate pillories one or a few individuals and then claims an epiphany I don't see how that is different from fifteen years ago. I don't have a dog in this fight other than I see a lot of hurting people posting on these boards and the collateral damage is unacceptable to me as a part of the Body of Christ at large. To articulate their pain in this forum takes guts, the repercussions could be of some consequence. Finally, I have to ask this question, if the lights are coming on to coin a phrase why all the hush-hush incognito pulp novel secrecy?
John

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

10-10-2005, 05:08 PM

John--

Neither I nor anyone else on this board (that I am aware of) is in a position to execute changes. Some are in better positions than others to point out areas in need of change, but I doubt that that is needed at this time, either, from myself or anyone else on this board. Furthermore, I believe changes have been made and that it is only a matter of time before it is seen whether or not they are effective.

Don't expect to see many more posts from me; I'm close to winding down my time on this board. I have very little left to say that I haven't already said.

--SB

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-10-2005, 05:28 PM

Hi oldguy,

Perhaps this isn't the most appropriate thread to ask this question - if not, maybe we can discuss this elsewhere. But with Leo Lawson going on sabbatical and Jed (Seneca?? or another Jed?) taking his place, have there been any corresponding changes in the curriculum or prevailing theology as taught by the Grad School for Campus Ministry that you are aware of?

thanks much,
ulyankee

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-10-2005, 06:16 PM

Cymbrogi,
it has been a pleasure to converese with you on this forum, thanks for participating singing pigs and all.
John

coppertree (coppertree)

10-10-2005, 07:51 PM

hi Cymbrogi- I just wanted you to know that I do sing and have been learning to fly of late.}

sameo (sameo)

10-10-2005, 08:40 PM

Hey "oldguy"-Thanks for your response
to my post. My sincere apology to you
for my assuming wrongly about
your comparision to "slavery."

When time permits, I will
comment further.

John:Thanks for your responses
as well. I feel extremely
vulnerable and frightened
sharing my heart. Because
I vacillate between speaking
negatively and speaking pos-
tively about BobW/Maranatha-
I have guilt.

Hmm...fear, and guilt. Super-
stition that God's going to
pounce on me. So, do I speak
the truth or stay quiet? I'm
still not sure.

I have spoken, thus far,
the truth as I saw and experienced
it.

thx-SameO

aletheia (aletheia)

10-10-2005, 08:41 PM

cymbrogi - thanks for your input. May the Lord direct your life and ministry. Go in peace...

aletheia

oldguy (oldguy)

10-10-2005, 09:37 PM

Further thought on my previous post, when a leader makes a decision for a member, he should also own the consequences. What bothers me about this is twofold:

1. The dump and run. The leader makes a decision for a member and then leaves the member to clean up the mess when things don't turn out well.

2. Mothering. The leader makes a decision for a member and no matter what the outcome, the member gets sucked into a greater dependence upon the leader instead of upon God. (I stated this problem in a previous post.)

Either is irresponsible.

Thecymbrogi - is the above stuff and what was in my last post what you were thinking about for bad theology? If so, I agree.

Aletheia - That's all I know about the graduate school. Probably change is in the works. Any comments from the SoCal area?

(Message edited by Oldguy on October 10, 2005)

(Message edited by Oldguy on October 10, 2005)

thecymbrogi (thecymbrogi)

10-11-2005, 12:35 AM

I'm not done--yet. Just getting mighty close.

oldguy--

yes. What you described in your two points is not the theological opinion of EN but has been practiced to varying degrees in various pockets of the EN world (imo). Some of it may be caused by bad personal theology, other cases may be bad leadership or simple immaturity. No matter the reason, it is faulty behavior (again, imo). But it also comes back to my point on how an organization can have a systematic theology but its advocates do not always adhere to it.

Or another way to put it, we, as Christians, have in the Bible the most perfect systematic theology ever put in place. But the church does a poor job adhering to it. Each generation tries to do better than the one before but there will always be casualties of our own making along the way until the church is glorified.

--SB

oldguy (oldguy)

10-11-2005, 02:43 AM

Well said. I think we are on the same page.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-11-2005, 07:57 AM

I find it interesting that no EN church has to be on the same page as others with regard to Eschatology and soteriology. These are usually what distinguishes the different streams of Charismania. Furthermore, how can this be possible in light of the fact that EN subscribes to NAR apostolicism and is seen as a leader in this area? Eschatology can no longer be dismissed as a non issue. It determines the type and scope of evangelism for one.

oldguy (oldguy)

10-11-2005, 02:42 PM

Speakword,

Unity with diversity. Jesus is Lord and Savior. He'll come back when He decides, despite what I or anyone else believes.

I've read a lot of posts about the apostle stuff. I guess if one believes in some form of dispensationalism, one could believe that Ephesians 4:11 is no longer valid. I find this a little risky though. To cut sections of scripture out because it doesn't fit into one's paradigm is a slippery slope. Approaching the Bible as if it were a smorgasborg (I'll take the chicken, but leave the spinach) can get one in trouble theologically.

Granted there can be counterfeits out there, but that doesn't prescribe throwing out the real deal. My understanding of an apostle is one who establishes churches and oversees church government. The idea that someone had to physically see Jesus as part of the criteria to be an apostle is extra-biblical. In fact, to believe that for one to be an expression of the "five-fold" ministry, one would have to be super-human flies in the face of grace and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now if these NAR (or whatever folks) are living for Jesus, planting churches, and staying out of trouble (spiritually, morally & financially), then agree with them or not, let them be. Maybe they need some adjustments. Who doesn't.

I'm not really clear on your viewpoint. You may have already declared that in a previous post, in which case I apologize for missing. But there is room at the Lord's table for the different viewpoints as long as we are wearing the robe of righteousness that He provides.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-11-2005, 03:35 PM

Well, you could call me a partial preterist if you need a label. It fits best with my idea of the Kingdom. Granted there needs to be a scope to work with with many different Christians and perhaps different Christian worldviews, but is there true unity in EN?

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-11-2005, 03:43 PM

Oldguy

I think I like you.

coppertree (coppertree)

10-11-2005, 06:50 PM

Hi Oldguy,
Have you read Bill mack reports. It is possible from what I experienced and saw that a different Jesus could be the center of your group. Scriptures can be twisted, and mean different things than are commonly accepted as evangelical Christian. How can truth fellowship with non truth? , as the scripture says. It deserves a good look see, as some unity can be bad. And the Berans were blessed for their research.}

coppertree (coppertree)

10-11-2005, 07:08 PM

Hi Same-o Thank you for posts; it was hard for me too ,at first to post. Please keep sharing as many are watching and reading; your sharing is helping a lot of people. Thank you for being brave.}

sameo (sameo)

10-11-2005, 07:47 PM

Coppertree-Thank you SO much for
responding to me, and for your
encouragement. I needed that more than
you'll know.

I was feeling kinda lonely out
here posting. :-)

Same-O

oldguy (oldguy)

10-11-2005, 08:59 PM

Coppertree,

Only cursory. I'll do a search tonight on what Mack put together and get back to you.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-11-2005, 10:16 PM

Hi Oldguy,

Now if these NAR (or whatever folks) are living for Jesus, planting churches, and staying out of trouble (spiritually, morally & financially), then agree with them or not, let them be.

Would you say from your perspective that EN is part of the New Apostolic Reformation, or not? My impression was that it was, since it is profiled in Wagner's New Apostolic Churches and Churchquake!, plus it is listed as an new apostolic oriented ministry here (http://www.globalharvestministries.org/index.asp?action=apostlinks). But it sounds from what you are saying that maybe it is not?

blessings,
ulyankee

oldguy (oldguy)

10-12-2005, 08:40 PM

Ulyankee - I don’t know if there is a formal association with NAR and NE. NAR references NE in various publications and representatives may even show up at the same meetings together, but I don’t know if it goes any further than that.

LC_20 - While I'm researching the NAR stuff, I thought about what you wrote earlier. You said that you did not have a Maranatha experience. I have to disagree. You probably experienced a mild case. Though MSI shed a portion of the baggage from Maranatha, some of the philosophy of leadership remained.

I liken the changes EN is hopefully going through to the peeling of an onion. With each layer peeled away and exposed, people cry. Then adjustments are made until the next layer is stripped away; until only what the Lord requires is left.

My hope is the issues you, myself, and others are addressing will be removed in the iteration of change EN may be going through so the tears will stop.

coppertree (coppertree)

10-12-2005, 11:38 PM

Hello Old Guy, You are so kind, but what if the core of the onion is bad.}}}

lc_20 (lc_20)

10-13-2005, 04:58 AM

Oldguy,
Two thoughts: First, what I was exposed to was not a philosophy. It was a religion - a representation of God with spiritual authority, spiritual covering, words from God.... Second thought, there was nothing mild about it. It was extreme with extreme expectations toward serving and giving... everything sacrificial... die to self. I do agree that it was Maranatha's abusive teachings still alive and well in the EN people who "discipled" me. From my experience, each year that I was there a layer was stripped away and I got closer to the inner circle... what I saw and experienced as I got closer to the core was much worse than what I saw from the outside.

Sameo, I am sorry for your experiences. I am learning that what was lost is lost. For some of what was lost, there can be no restoration. Lost youths, lost opportunities, lost finances... gone. Vengence is the Lords. But, there is still so much left of life to be enjoyed that wasn't stollen. Stuff protected by the Lord. The concept of destiny and greatness through achievements or through personal financial prosperity here on earth minimizes God. I believe in a God so great that he can see tremendous value in every aspect of every life. He sees and loves the uniqueness of each creation not based on what they can do to build the kingdom but just on personal relationship. What did Lazarus - friend of Jesus - do to build the kingdom? He wasn't one of the disciples, didn't build a church, wasn't rich. What was his great destiny? He was a friend of the Lord's, died and rose from the dead. That is a great destiny.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-13-2005, 12:43 PM

oldguy, thank you for answering your question about the New Apostolic Reformation. If there is not a formal relationship, does that mean that Jim Laffoon is no longer a member of the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders and Rice Broocks is no longer a member of the New Apostolic Roundtable, both groups convened by Dr. Wagner?

Are among the planned reforms in EN changes to its apostolic government, which according to Rice Broocks in New Apostolic Churches, is one in which churches and pastors are "covered" by apostolic leadership? What is the current position regarding the covering doctrine?

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 13, 2005)

aletheia (aletheia)

10-13-2005, 04:08 PM

RE: C. Peter Wagner's apostles and prophets

Hi all,

I contacted someone I know from Wagner's group to get the current list of the following:
. NAR - apostolic roundtable (25 members)
. ACPE - ap. council of prophetic elders
. ICA - int'l coalition of ap.'s

Even though Wagner's websites like www.wagnerleadership.org (http://www.wagnerleadership.org) and www.globalharvest.org (http://www.globalharvest.org) have fairly updated events, the bios on some of the leaders and faculty are somewhat outdated.

Currently, the Wagner Leadership Institute website does not list Rice Broocks as one of the faculty, though it does list affiliated institutions including VLI (with Rice's name) and the Graduate School of Campus Ministry (with Leo Lawson's name).

S. Mansfield's name is listed as one of the faculty (and possibly leadership) of WLI with some slightly dated bio info. on him. Though I've heard Mansfield is a member of Bethel World Outreach, I don't know his leadership status in MSI/EN.

As soon as I hear anything I'll post it here.

peace to all,
aletheia

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-13-2005, 04:17 PM

aletheia,

There is a current list of ICA members here:

http://www.apostlesnet.net/index.asp?action=members

The other two lists don't appear to have been updated online since 2003, though. Thanks!

BTW, Stephen Mansfield states that he is part of the MSI/EN family both on his blog and in his acknowledgements to The Faith of George W. Bush (178).

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 13, 2005)

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-13-2005, 04:42 PM

Bethel World Outreach Center
August 12, 1998
The Spirit of Jezebel vs. the New Apostolic Churches

(These are not summary notes. This is a direct transcript of the first few minutes of this tape.)

I’m going to share with you the theme from my Fuller Seminary paper. As most of you know, I was out at Fuller Seminary in Los Angeles several weeks ago for an intensive class on the New Apostolic Churches, and I’m enrolled in the master’s program out there, pursuing my degree in cross-cultural missions, and this was a tremendous week we had with Dr. Peter Wagner. And he of course was coming out of a paradigm of a revelation God has given him about a world-wide move of the Holy Spirit regarding the new look of churches in the world. Actually, church the way we were doing it is not being done that way anymore. There are new, exciting moves of the Holy Spirit in what he calls the New Apostolic Churches. This book is actually a compilation of nineteen different movements that are now winning people to Christ, making disciples, and training leaders all over the globe. And one of the nineteen movements is Morning Star International, which is the family of churches and ministries of which you and I are a part. There is a chapter in here on Morning Star International, and we’re having this chapter reproduced by the way in booklet form, and we’ll have it in the bookstore here in the next few weeks. Pastor Rice wrote the chapter on Morning Star, and it is one of the churches that Dr. Wagner has identified as a growing movement if you will, we don’t really use the term denomination, because it is not denominationally based, it is relationally based. You know, in denominations you are part of an organization but you may or may not know your district supervisor, you may or may not know the president of the conference or whatever, but in Morning Star, it’s all covenant based, it’s relationship based, you really can’t just join it because you want to, it has to be a God given connection relationally, and so that’s just one of the churches. By the way, just to tell you, we happen to be kind of the one that Dr. Wagner favors the most. He is giving us more time, as a matter of fact, he has agreed to serve as the dean over our Victory Leadership Institutes, and we’re moving toward accreditation from his own seminary that he’s beginning. He just left Fuller after 32 years, he just resigned at Fuller.

oldguy (oldguy)

10-13-2005, 09:22 PM

Ulyankee,

I'm still researching. Who was quoted above?

What I'm looking for is what John mentioned in his 10/10 post. If there is a trend towards blending spheres of authority, then there is great cause for concern. If it just a matter of pastors and leaders getting together to better serve in their biblically lawful sphere, then I'm not so worried.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-13-2005, 09:53 PM

Hi oldguy... the label says Ray McCollum but it was clearly not Pst. Ray. I originally thought it might have been Leo Lawson based on context, but I have also seen and heard Leo Lawson in person and I can't be 100% sure this is him - so I am reticent to place a name on it in case I'm incorrect. But it is definitely a Bethel tape with a printed Bethel label. I have the original copy of the tape right here on my desk.

john_r_jones (john_r_jones)

10-13-2005, 11:19 PM

I suppose you're referring to my post regarding oligarchy and the dark ages. I'm curious where do we draw the biblical guidelines for differing hegemonies? Do we follow Wagner's revelation about workplace Apostles-Retail Apostles, Engineering Prophets, Tradecraft and Working persons Pastors? If I were to draw from my Maranatha experience there would be so many people trying to lead few if any would serve or actually do the work. Mind you this isn't hypothetical and theories, the ministry had a poor track record with the business of getting things done. Or better yet read Gary North's estimation of CNP and the behavior of the participants. I tired of the whole authority thing by people who assume power or prowess with slinging scripture around lends them an air of something other than a doctrinaire wind tunnel. I remember taking a staff member to one of the engineers I worked with in Oklahoma building a church building. I asked him to explain the folly of building a seven-sided sanctuary, which some prophetic genius had proposed for the Gainesville church. As the words came out of my mouth the crusty old fellow in a construction trailer screwed the lid on his fifth of Jack Daniels and proceeded to inform us with colorful invective what Bull---- that was. All I'm seeing now is greater skill at manipulating people and acquiring more money for the powers that be with a side order of trying to assimilate other ministries and the credit for their work. Why would anyone in a sound state of mental health trust these folks with something of consequence? The niceties about change are just that, the years of experience with their stuff overshadow any promise of wonderment for me.
John

j2theperson (j2theperson)

10-14-2005, 03:56 AM

This is going back to an earlier part of this discussion...

Oldguy, forgive me if I'm incorrect, but you don't seem to have answered my question. Who is this "Jed" you refered to who has replaced Leo Lawson?

Thanks.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-14-2005, 07:43 AM

Aletheia

Considering the experience you have what's the story on the prophecy?

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-14-2005, 12:56 PM

IMHO, C. Peter Wagner's motivation to unite a network of leaders is to achieve solidarity (unity in doctrinal diversity) in the midst of post-denominationalism. In all due respect, I think he is deceived about the NOTLR doctrine and his declaration that the Church is in the "second apostolic age."

Aletheia, I totally appreciate your point. All I'm wanting to know is what Every Nation's relationship and position are regarding the New Apostolic Reformation. I've been told several times that there isn't much to the relationship, that Dr. Wagner is just a friend of the ministry, etc. but there is much evidence that indicates that there may be more to it than that. I just would like to know... "is you is, or is you ain't?" And then people can make their own decisions from there, imho. Other churches and networks who consider themselves part of the NAR movement (or of other movements for that matter) are pretty open about it. Same with some of EN's other doctrinal positions that we've discussed here... just would like to know one way or another.

Knowing the truth about some of these issues would go a long way toward answering the question heading this thread imho. If one doesn't know the truth of what Every Nation and its leaders truly believe and practice at heart (particularly the US based leadership), then there is no starting point to reform anything, imho.

blessings,
ulyankee

(Message edited by ulyankee on October 14, 2005)

romans122 (romans122)

10-14-2005, 02:00 PM

Jed Walker is filling the position formerly held by Leo Lawson.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-14-2005, 02:27 PM

Alethia

Do you know Oldguy?

aletheia (aletheia)

10-15-2005, 08:38 AM

hi speakword - you asked me: "considering the experience you have what's the story on the prophecy?"

I'm not sure what you mean, and not sure what you're looking for by asking "what's the story on the prophecy?" Are you referring to the "revelatory word" I posted here on FACTNet: www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8123.html?1128051368 (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8123.html?1128051368) - 77k or the one I wrote on July 11 this past summer, or another prophecy by someone else?

You later asked me "Do you know Oldguy?"

Sorry speak, I don't know him personally, just on from this FACTNet board.

BTW, I just noticed there are a gazillion "Aletheia's" on the internet. The only place I use this name is on FACTNet.org.

peace,
a.

aletheia (aletheia)

10-15-2005, 09:52 AM

Hi Ulyankee - re your 10/14 post (NAR and EN), there is so much to say.

Just a few, brief thoughts...Rice Broocks, Jim Laffon, Paul Daniel have all been in NAR, but do you want to know if EN has a formal relationship with them? Wagner is/was the honorary Dean of VLI and still teaches for EN - he was teaching at Bethel this summer. Wasn't Rice also once listed as one of the leaders on the NAR speaking circuit? And Jim Laffoon is/was in the Prophetic Presbytery and the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders. (Wagner's group)

Here's a quote from www.letusreason.org (http://www.letusreason.org):

"The New Apostolic Roundtable is one of these smaller units. Membership, which comes through a personal invitation from Wagner, is now closed. On principle, the general public should know the names of the NAR members, all of whom feel accountable to each other. Wagner is convening apostle, Chuck Pierce is prophetic counsel, and members include: Ché Ahn, Bob Beckett, Rice Broocks, Harold Caballeros, Emmanuele Cannistraci, Paul Daniel [now out], Greg Dickow, Naomi Dowdy, John Eckhardt, Michael Fletcher, Bill Hamon, Jim Hodges, John Kelly, Lawrence Kennedy, Lawrence Khong, David Kwang-Shin Kim, Larry Kreider, Alan Langstaff, Roberts Liardon, Dexter Low, Mel Mullen, Alistair Petrie and Eddie Villanueva. (ministries Today Magazine July-August 2000)"

There is NAR teaching infused in EN's teaching. One has to know the specific beliefs of NAR leaders to decifer their theology in EN teaching, preaching and published materials.

For example, one of the ENLI's books Apostolic Foundations uses the term "post-denominationalism" in a totally NAR manner (radical new worldview). Wagner held a global leadership conference with the theme "post-denominationalism" - his new church paradigm.

I have seen many pastors in various denominations read books authored by other pastors, get together at conferences or invite other pastors/prophets/etc to speak at their churches. Some are trying to discern what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Others are looking for inspiration or even the "next wave" (Wagner again) of the Holy Spirit. It's like they're at a theological smorgasbord, filling their plates with a little of everything, then bring home a doggy bag...those ideas into their churches. Many times they don't remember who said what and even retain the info as their own revelation from God. It's somewhat syncretistic.

More...later!

a.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-15-2005, 12:14 PM

Yes, the revelatory word about Murrell taking over from Baffoon, Broocks and Clownasso.

ulyankee (ulyankee)

10-15-2005, 02:44 PM

aletheia,

Another term I've heard used is "cross-pollination" for what you describe, and it appears to be intentional if not outright celebrated.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/crosspollination.html
http://www.intercessor.net/INet/cross1.htm
http://www.openheaven.com/forums/printer_friendly_posts.asp?FID=7&TID=140 (see first quoted speaker in the transcribed discussion)

It makes me think though of the wise words Paul told Timothy... "Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure" (1 Tim 5:32). And also Scriptures instructing us to come out and be separate (2 Cor 6:16-18), and to test all things and hold fast to what is good (1 Thess 5:21)... It's hard to test all things and remain separate when you're piling up your plate at the buffet, or worse, having it piled up for you.

Thanks for your insights. I have seen most of the same things you have.

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-15-2005, 11:24 PM

A good friend had a dream couple of years ago, that Phil and Tony will be kick out.

I had a dream about Phil's daughter being courted by an older actor, He was welcomed in Phil's home , ate his dinner there.Then went to a play and dress up like a devil , using his horn slicing a lady's face. The warning dream was once this Devil get exposed, Phil will be bought down at the same time. I had the dream last year.

I never thought back then that was Tony.

But for the last 4 -5 years, I kept telling my close friends it will be Tony that will bring this ministry down, never thought it will be this way.

formermaranathapastor (formermaranathapastor)

10-15-2005, 11:28 PM

Why exactly was Bonasso removed. Was it botching the TF thing, or was it financial problems, or what?

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-16-2005, 02:44 AM

The leadership won't say. But my guess is the financial. Two meetings ago, this is just after TF scandal, Garry Senna and Steve Murrell told him to open the books. Financial Disclosure.

then couple of Friday ago, he took all the books and list of people that are in salary.Took it to Nashville. Everybody was nervous in Los Angeles Ca. After that, Phil got kick out.

I do not think its TF. Because TF is still a member of MSI. He got kick out of Phil Bonasso church and but he got invited to attend another MSI church, hoping to restore him and his marriage.

ginger1 (ginger1)

10-16-2005, 02:46 AM

I believed that they found out about the building too.

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-18-2005, 10:12 AM

Alethia

I find it interesting that you do not call it a prophecy and yet use a scripture about not treating prophecies with contempt. I am quite happy then to treat your "revelation" with either deserving contempt or skepticism due to its subjectivity. Your word had corrective and directive implications and still does. You underscore that by suggesting that in light of certain and recent events, Murrell And now Perry (what he has to do with it now I do not know?) must take some action. Your interpretation of this word and desciption of it does not indicate the scope you were given to speak it in. You do not indicate that God told you how and when to deliver it. My guess is that your revelation was personal, based on events and experiences you were having and also influenced by what you read on this board and also your intereactions with others in EN.

The word did come across as authoritative and directional and even a rebuke to current leadership. If this was the place for you to do it then so be it.

I just can not help myself from thinking that perhaps you are part of a faction of EN that has had its knives out for Bonasso for some time. If you are being completely honest, then your sudden revelation, coversion to Factnet and subsequent reaction to the impending loss of Bonasso is very very interesting indeed.

Either you are just an early indicator/forerunner of a sociological phenomenon within the movement, a political agent of a faction within EN or the Lord has blessed you for this time with some relevant information and means of sharing it for whatever reason.

I suggest that you vote with your mouth or your feet within your local church. If you are in an EN church you should be rebuking your elders with the ease you are able to do here.

wiseasaserpentgentleasadove (wiseasaserpentgentleasadove)

10-18-2005, 07:33 PM

Hi, aletheia and others. I am not new to this board, but i took a long break. It got to be a bit too time consuming, so i am choosing to post only as i feel led of the Holy Spirit.
aletheia, i read the prophetic word you posted and responded a while back saying that it ministered to my spirit, too. i am currently in an EN church, and have been praying for direction and ears to hear when/if the Lord calls us out of it. I am beginning to see a shift at our church, more towards Christ as the head. My continued prayer is that these churches, who have segregated themselves from the rest of the body of Christ in the past with their "covering and discipleship" issues, will begin to focus on Jesus as head of "their group of churches" as well as the entire larger body of christ. I pray for a spirit of humility, repentance, and an attitude of worship to sweep across all of the EN churches where they have erred, and a true revival to sweep our nation. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

speakword2004 (speakword2004)

10-19-2005, 09:25 AM

Alethia,

Well all I have is your word on it. If you are being truely honest then I suppose the word was more for your benefit then for others. You are the one who has responded the strongest to it and therefore the revelation is probably meant for you. It is also a good thing that you have acted on your convictions. As for the relevence of it being posted here I suppose you and others could testify more to that. Your chances of being accepted as a "prophetic minister" with En are now slim unless you hide the fact of this prophecy. It does seem that you feel God wants it to be publically declared despite your anonimity. Did you deliver this word to the elders of the church? If not why not?

As a person who has read a lot of the current material I find your appraoch unusual, but then I find some of the writings of current leading edge prophets to be trite as well.

philiprosenthal (philiprosenthal)

02-25-2006, 11:41 AM

EveryNation/His People: Sociological cult or church needing reform

In answer to the question at the top, I would answer that EveryNation/His People is a church which has a parasitic sociological cult feeding off it and exploiting and deceiving its members. The cult compromises not the whole ministry, but the group within the ministry who idolise the ministry and specific leaders within it. These people gradually lose an ability to differentiate right from wrong - as they allow their idols to make such judgements for them. If one idol is exposed as a fraud, such idolators just shift their allegiance to another 'super-apostle/prophet/pastor' who they idolise instead. They think they are building Gods kingdom, but actually just corrupting it with cultish loyalties.

The challenge is whether the good genuine members and leaders can put an end to this idolatry of leaders and the ministry and break the stranglehold of the cultish leaders. Leaders can also help by exposing their frail human side, for example by confessing mistakes and not claiming unwarranted authority - thus discouraging such cultish idol worship.

speakword2004

10-18-2006, 01:21 PM

Is EN a church with a parisitic sociological cult feeding off it and exploiting its members?

The Reformation Station has changed its name to reflect the need to include a debate beyond the need for reform to other prevailing issues, causes and also to encourage those with different viewpoints pro and anti this church family to submit and discuss their viewpoints.

Any further suggestions or comments are also welcome. If anyone can assist with links to pertinent information on Factnet such as the type which J2 provided the other day, I would be most grateful. It has become increasingly difficult to catalogue and reference information on any of the sites, timelines and blogs etc. Please feel free to forward your comments to me at ruffledfur1@yahoo.co.uk

40days40years

10-19-2006, 10:05 AM

What's the new name speak is the address the same?

miltietoast

10-19-2006, 01:11 PM

follow the money it is all about money control and comfort

youngnmighty

10-19-2006, 02:34 PM

Hi Speakword and others,

EN and all its affiliates are unlikely to 'change' in the true sense of the word. Not all the leaders are idiots obviously. The culture of the organisation is such that difference is not tolerated ever at all. I keep observing and find that its still the same old and same old.

I can't imagine EN changing without letting go of practices it considers fundamental:
1. Total submission to so-called 'spiritual authority' (hence in practice u must ask their permission to date, listen to their suggestions with regard to your career and life's direction - of course they claim they know what God wants for you.)This goes back to 'Sons and Daughters of the House' fascist nonsense. In reality, it forces conformity and passivity towards authority rather than a real sense of spiritual family.

2. Members must put the church at the ultimate centre of their social, political and educational lives. Finding ideas elsewhere is like heretical coz they're so afraid you'll grow your own brain. (So you're entrapped in VLI, discipleship groups, seminars, camps, weekends, soccer games... with just church people!)

3. VLI Training and Worldviews Teaching: This is riddled with strawman fallacies and is poorly researched and compiled. It also pure propaganda. Hence it teaches members poor critical thinking skills, discourages own initiative and research into the Word and God's hand in history. Hence members learn to spew back propaganda, rather than to reach biblical conclusions themselves.

4.Destiny, Destiny, Destiny: While everyone should follow their passions and have goals, the 'destiny mindset' is a fraught one. It forces members to have to know everything about their possible futures, it discourages exploration (i should know, i once dumped a wonderful artistic option in pursuit of a single destiny, i regret this deeply!!!). It again forces people into a trap of continuous confession and accountability about what they are doing and whether they are living some so-called destiny. You can't just live in wonder. This is an indirect and unintended method of control. Its one thing to encourage people to strive for the best, its another to expect young people to know how their lives will unfold. This sort of pressure forces members to want to please their pastors/ leaders/ disciplers by always looking like they know where they are going. It is false. Life is complex and members should be allowed to navigate its complexity without having to provide 'annual report' type things about your 'destiny' as if you're a factory trying to meet targets.

5.EN Books promoted almost exclusively: Well, capitalism is capitalism isn't it? It might be interesting to be in an EN church where they don't act as channels for the type of Christian literature you prioritise. Hmm... but that's not the kind of ethics the Prosperity Gospel type churches would even ponder on. While no EN church restricts your reading choices, its just interesting to note that the books they pump are their own. I used to go to a church where no books were pumped deliberately in an effort to get everyone reading the same thing. Churches cant be run by textbooks. Hmm.. Chairman Mao's Red Book...any parallels...conformity, over-dependence..hmm..

Those areas at EN are fundamental, they won't change. If they changed, then it would no longer be EN but something else.

YM

(Message edited by youngnmighty on October 19, 2006)

forword

10-19-2006, 03:16 PM

I will not trust anything EN does until they open their books. EN has virtually no ministry to the poor, has mamy pastors living in very expensive homes, and has NO financial accountability outside of their own inner circle, This is a very bad combination.

vanguard

10-19-2006, 04:29 PM

Currently , Steve Murrell has been telling churches and people that their books are clean without opening the books. He thinks churches and people would believe him just because he said so.

I won't be surprised if the 2006 are clean because now its being watched, but from 1998 - 2005 , I really doubt it. And Steve is not offering to open its books also.

jonmoseley

10-22-2006, 08:06 AM

oldguy - "I don’t find anything fundamentally wrong in EN theology."

aletheia: Many posting here will differ with your statement. If you have the time to wade through the myriad of posts on this board, you will see many topics covered from the Trinity to EN's worldview [which influences EN's systematic theology (or lack thereof) and practice].

ME (Moseley): AND MANY WILL AGREE WITH OLDGUY that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH EN's Theology.

In fact, I have started a thread only on that topic, but nobody dares to touch it, except to whine some more about their grievances.

The difference is that you critics are DISHONEST and DECEITFUL. When you disagree with a church YOU CALL IT A CULT. You seek to BLUDGEON people into agreeing with your version of theology.

You see the abuse? The intimidation? The mind control? The intellectual fascism? AGREE WITH ME (you critics of EN say) OR WE'LL CALL YOU A CULT!

Whereas OldGuy tries to openly and honestly discuss theology and determine what exactly you disagree with, YOU ENGAGE IN NAME-CALLING and attacks simply because someone else does not agree with your Royal Highness.

coppertree

10-22-2006, 06:23 PM

Hi Jon, esq.
If you read down further from where you quote, you may note that Olg Guy in his post# 17, dated Oct. 09, 2005, a year ago. Old guys says the En does need to change, so it will not end up like Maranatha.
And he never says that as you do that there is nothing wrong with EN 's theology. You say that many agree with him, that there is nothing wrong. That is not what he said. That is your point of view not Old Guys.

I have re-read this and find nothing as you say,

"YOU ENGAGE IN NAME -CALLING, and attacks "

Please look again , this was a lively discussion on this thread with give and take on both sides, not similar to what you try to portray.}